The Piano that was Censored by Steinway: Grotrian-Steinweg
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 มี.ค. 2020
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It has been pointed out to me that Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg (the founder of Steinway) did actually have some involvement with the Steinweg company in the 1830's, but left the company very early in its life. I still stand by all my other statements, and wish to point out that Grotrian pianos are still allowed to be produced with the "Steinweg" name attatched in all other parts of the world except the USA.
Steinway has long been one of the world's most respected piano brands, but in my opinion, some of their actions in the past tarnish their reputation as a perfect piano company. One such time was when Steinway sued the Grotrian-Steinweg piano company over the use of the name "Steinweg", feeling that consumers might be confused into thinking that Steinway and Grotrian-Steinweg were somehow related.
In my opinion, this was completely unnecessary, and this piano is a remnant of this dark moment in Steinway's past. Apparently this feud has been going on since the late 1800's and was finally resolved in 1977, you can read more about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotria... - เพลง
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Grotain and Ibach are my favorit Brands, but Grotain is now buyed from a asian Company and Ibach dont build new Pianos now, Ibach made only Rebuilding and service of his used Pianos.
Grotrian-Steinweg should have had a better lawyer.
or a friendly judge
In Braunschweig, Lower Saxony, where I was born there's still Grotrian-Steinweg. As well as Schimmel. We have a long tradition of building grand pianos in my hometown.
In my university in Brunswick in northern Germany, some of the Architecture Students have their workplaces and other offices in buildings called “Grotrian”, which actually are the old manufacturing halls of the Grotrian Brand ;)
Heeey! It's my uni too!
We also write our exams there. Because it offers a lot of space for the exams.
I've sold many a Grotrain-Steinweg and I love them. The old 132 with the sostenuto pedal was a great idea, I've always found it interesting the the 225cm model was just as powerful as the 275cm. If you buy a Grotrain-Steinweg, you get quality.
I have had a Grotrian Steinweg upright for more than 40 years and love it
Steinways are amazing, but they're riding on their reputation and acting like tyrants.
André Gaveau well said.
They are infamously detested by piano technicians.
Steinway and Gibson walk into a bar . . . . .
For your reason, plus the actual 'Steinway design' hasn't changed for over 80+ years.
People are actually buying a 'new antique' (aka an old design) at 3x the cost of what a Steinway piano should sell for, in comparison with other companies.
Shame on them for hiding this simple and basic fact, of selling an old and outdated piano design, and for failing to innovate as other top piano manufacturers have done, and continue to do (e.g. Yamaha, Fazioli, Kawai, etc.) And shame on them for leading people to think that somehow, they have a "new design", when in reality, their cases, iron plates (frame), and action assembly are essentially the same on all their respective piano models, as when they were first designed, prior to the 1930s.
Hi André,
I own a Gaveau Piano. I wonder if your name is connected to this brand or is it just an nickname like I sometimes use myself.
Grtz from the Netherlands,
Gabriël
In fact, the history of Grotrian-Steinweg is connected a lot to Steinway’s history. Heinrich Steinweg, the founder of Steinway, already was a piano manufacturer back in Germany, but decided to migrate to the USA in 1850 with all of his children except his son Theodor, who got to know Friedrich Grotrian around 1856. Grotrian already had a piano factory, but in 1858, invested in Theodor Steinweg’s piano factory. This means, that the similarity of the names isn’t just a coincidence, since they were actually related.
The piano sounded beautiful, that was the first thing that came to my mind when you played it!
It did. It reminded me of a Shigeru Kawai. Would actually consider purchasing this cuz it's probably at a fraction of the price.
To think .. i've been to this specific store many times and i've never played on it .. 😠
The history of Grotrian-Steinweg is deeply connected to Steinway and Sons and a bit complicated - but fascinating! Heinrich E. Steinway founded a piano factory in Seesen, Germany in 1835. Leaving Germany in 1850, he transferred the German factory to his son, C. F. Theodor Steinweg. Heinrich moved to New York City and started building pianos in 1853, later changing his and his company's name to Steinway & Sons. Back in Germany, son Theodor became partners with Friedrich Grotrian in 1858, and the business was moved to Braunschweig and renamed Grotrian-Steinweg. Theodor Steinweg held many patents for innovations in piano manufacturing, and exchanges of ideas with his family in America led to several more innovations. In 1895 Steinway & Sons sued to stop Grotrian-Steinweg from using the name "Steinweg" on its pianos. After many years of litigation, the US court of appeals ruled that Grotrian-Steinweg-a brand not very well known in the US-was unfairly given an extra measure of credibility based on the strong reputation that Steinway & Sons had built, and could no longer use the name Steinweg after 1977. Read the remarkable book “Grand Obsession” by Perri Knize for a true piano love story about a Grotrian.
As I have stated in another comment why was Grotian-Steinweg was never stopped from using their name in Europe. Steinways are sold all over the world. I think it was because they had more clout here in the states and they used that to their advantage against a smaller company.
More information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotrian-Steinweg#Trademark_conflict
Very interesting, I own a small Grotrian Steinweg , bought in Germany, (live in the Netherlands) grand piano with considering the relatively short size a deep , clear and warm sound
I remember when, back in the '90s, I saw an article in a newspaper about how a small company which made cakes and pastries called, "YA-HOO!" sued the "Yahoo!" ISP provider company having nothing to do with cakes or pastries for using the same name. You'd be surprised by what people sue for regarding using "their" names, just like you said about the name "Steinweg" and "Steinway".
Steinway is, unfortunately, renowned for being obstructive, litigious, and punitive. If you are a "Steinway artist" endorsed by the company you cannot be in a photograph with any other marque of piano, otherwise you will not only lose your "artist" status but the company can forbid concert halls which use their instruments to let you perform on them. (This has happened several times, even at Carnegie Hall.) You cannot mention any other piano marque in newspaper or magazine articles either. The company has maintained its records back to its founding but will not allow any research to be done with them "to protect the privacy of Steinway owners"; if you want to know a Steinway piano's history from factory documents you must prove that you own the instrument. I tried to track the history of a Steinway that was evidently in Sanders Theatre at Harvard University in the 1880s, because Thomas Edison's recordist Theo Wangemann recorded American composer John Knowles Paine on a cylinder there in 1889 and Wangemann mentions the Steinway in the cylinder's announcement. (The piece Paine is unidentified at present, and the sound is dim.) It seemed odd to me that Harvard would have a Steinway instead of a Chickering, so I tried to find out if the company had made an instrument for the university. They denied me information, said that it could have been sold by any number of dealers at the time, and archivally slammed the door in my face. Well, Steinway has had only one Boston dealer since 1869, M. Steinert & Sons, and they are still in business. (Steinway did not mention this.) They, in contrast, were more than willing to help me, but regretted that they had lost their pre-1915 sales records in a 1983 flood. I actually do not care much for post-1940 Steinways at all as a pianist, and tend to avoid them; the company's attitude towards people such as myself does not increase my willingness to play their instruments.
Wow, those are some disgusting business practices!
Yeah, that's also true with Baldwin, Yamaha etc. I don't believe Steph Curry wears Reboks
As to your preference for older Steinways, they are Steinway's stiffest competition. I have a pre-1890 Steinway upright, but Steinway only made money on the first sale of that piano.
What about Ludovico Einaudi who has used Yamaha pianos recently and he is still a Steinway artist.
I agree. That is really a brand I dislike, regardless the qualities of their instruments.
Very interesting history. And thank you for finally telling me how to pronounce Steinway. This was a beautiful sounding piano and I was disappointed that you did not play some more pieces
Having worked with rosewood in building a guitar, I have a couple of comments about the case material. Aside from the fallboard, which does appear to be carved, the instrument case looks most likely to be some sort of veneer on top of laminate wood. Those bends would be impossible to do with solid rosewood, or pretty much any solid wood, especially hardwoods. Second, rosewood trees in the wild only grow to about 2 feet in diameter, so you're just not going to find a piece of quarter-sawn rosewood as wide as the height of the rim, without it including sapwood. So unless it's a glue-up of book-matched veneers, it's not rosewood.
I’ve got a Steinweg Grotrian. NOT a Grotrian Steinweg. 1903. The case is starting to showing its age but it still sounds amazing!
Many years ago, I lived in a community where a man operated a business selling the Grotrian-Steinweg. At the time I could not afford one and didn't have the room.
Some of you may know who he was and who his son is. I assume his father is gone. His son is a wonderful person and has developed his own successful career, which unfortunately now is under attack by the Corona Virus. If his son reads this note, I want to wish him the best and offer him my prayers toward fixing his business after this is over.
I know this subject is about the Grotrian. It was a wonderful piano and I loved it. I was "well qualified" to play it because I could play the "Beethoven 5".
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
I would absolutely love it if you made an extended studio recording of your test piece, it has much potential to be developed into a beautiful full length piece!
It is. Listen to “Just don’t want to be lonely” by Cuba Gooding Sr.
According to Wikipedia, Heinrich Steinweg moved to New York and Americanized his name to Henry Steinway. The original German Steinway company was left to his son Theodor, who partnered with Friedrich Grotrian in 1856. In 1865, the family asked him to sell his share in G-S to the Grotrian family, and come to America to run Steinway; he complied.
The NY Steinway company went back to Germany and established their Hamburg factory, thereby competing with Grotrian-Steinweg in Brunswieg (Brunswick) for the European market. When Grotrian sold pianos in the US in the 1960s under the G-S name, the whole mess started with lawsuits and such.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotrian-Steinweg
Fascinating. Thanks for the review, James!
You might be interested to look at this book, all about Grotrian. A great read. And, yes, the author reports that Grotrian and Steinweg started out as partners in Germany. Gareth, Vancouver Canada.
I'm a German teacher & Steinweg actually means Steinway, basically, because Weg is way ... so the other names are not as close. I actually did think that Steinweg and Steinway had been the same and didn't know that one sued the other, I think.
James,
I don't think that lawsuit would hold up today, Steinway may have used "pressure" to achieve the results..
I completely agree with your analysis.
By the way, Unique is Unique, a thing can't be nearly or almost unique.Many people make that mistake.
I know ,you don't need to be told that, so look it up and see for yourself since you are very careful and fluent in your videos.
Cheers,
Rik
Nice to know there's a musical history channel for my children who are learning piano and pipe organ. New subscriber.
If I had one, I'd be determined to remove the badge and metal and restore it to Grotrian-Steinweg.
Beware the Steinway Special Piano Police (SSPP), they may seem to be playing a different tune but believe me, they're nasty.
Sirens play the beginning of Beethoven's 5th over and over again, so you can't miss them coming.
Very interesting tidbit of piano history. Now that I'm on basic quarantine I'll have lots more time to read stories such as this. Thanks!
Our thoughts are with you.
I used to play an old Grotrian Steinweg upright piano from 1975 - 1993, which was built in 1897 and had ivory keys and marvellous, warm full and brilliant sound characteristics. I herited it from my auntie and invested some thousend Deutsche Marks in repairs because of it's incomparable charisma and aura, and I especially loved to play Chopin on it, the key control and sound generating culture while playing has never been topped by other pianos afterwards. It survived two World Wars, some refugee tracks from Breslau, Silesia, to Hannover and later to Göttingen, and stoically it even tolerated many changes of my apartments or student rooms, until I restituted it to my sister in Berlin who originally owned it after my auntie had passed away. I still believe these incredibly fine characters of Grotrian Steinweg collect all resonances ever be flooded with and remeber them for any new piece of repertory that you chose to play on them .Thay are like a stradivari or amati violin in this respebt. It took me a long time - after 'wasting' 24 years with a small 110 cm upright Seiler of astonishing sounc and mechanics qualities - to acquire last december a Schimmel 1,50 rosewood grand piano wirh a similar top sound an playability as the Grotrian - Steinweg ( 1,72 ) of my father on which he alternately with a yamaha grand piano ( for his students ) played all the great barck, classic and romantic masterpieces...So in my opinion Schimmel - Grand Pianos, also produced in Braunschweig, are on a similar quality and sound level as Grotrian - Steinweg - while some of the Steinway & Sons or their Boston ( low price derivates ) Grand Pianos don't really convince me on the whole scale...regardless whether ivory keys or not...
I liked your commentary and the tune you played whilst testing it … very nice indeed - lovely tone,
Glad you enjoyed it!
The only Grotrian -Steinweg I have seen was here in Australia late 60's it was a grand built for the tropics (I was told) and had unusual celluloid type key-coverings with, if I remember correctly , rounded fronts .
I had a 1908 Hamburg-made Rachals & Co. upright with similar rounded key-covers that had a plaque on the plate that read "Specially Made For H. Hobbs & Co., Calcutta". It was a combination 65/88-note player instrument with an Autopiano action and was incredibly overbuilt in every respect, but it never made it to India: the fallboard had "Peterson Sons & Co., Dundee" inscribed on its lower right corner, and it came with a number of rolls with Peterson dealer labels on them. God knows why it went to Scotland instead of its intended destination.
The Grotrian-Steinweg is a very cool piano - I thought it was interesting that they covered up the Steinweg logo unofficially.
The sound of this piano/playing is just beautiful! Amazing!
Sounded much better than a Steinway.
After steinway left to become Steinway in the U.S., Grotrian took over wat was left by steinway, The piano's Grotrian made wore the name Grotrian, Steinweg's Nachfolger (successor)
Later the word Nachfolger (Nachf.) disappeared, and left the name "Grotrian Steinweg"
Don'y know why I'm just getting around to this video now, but fascinating story and lovely piano. Surprisingly ornate for something made in the '70s.
not sure if anyone commented around this, so, apparently [Wikipedia]: Grotrian-Steinweg's history dates back to 1835 when the first Steinweg piano factory was built by Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg (later known as Henry Steinway after his emigration to the US where he founded Steinway & Sons). In 1856, Friedrich Grotrian became a partner; in 1865 his son Wilhelm Grotrian and two associates bought the factory and the right to market their pianos as successors to the Steinweg brand. [......]
Economic depression in the 1930s and war in the 1940s caused Grotrian-Steinweg to decline severely and then lose its factory completely. The family rebuilt the factory and re-established its reputation for quality work. In the 1950s, an annual piano-playing competition was founded by the company, to identify promising young piano students.
Grotrian-Steinweg sought to expand into the US in the mid-1960s. Steinway & Sons sued to prevent them from using the Steinweg name, resulting in a 1975 decision by the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. ... --> some bad blood there?
Well spoken, very knowledgeable and personable. I think you'll do very well in the commercial area.
Beautiful sound 😍!
always support bosendorfers over steinways :)
I used to have Steinweg piano.. I don't remember the word Grotrian but always remembered the Steinweg in script. I gave it to my friend for just pick up as my mom and dad didn't want it no longer in there bedroom... it was not best maintained as it was at our house for about 15 years.. and we as kids played on it.. then my mom put her clothes on it.. ..
I owned a Grotian Steinweg in Israel in the 50's early 60's. Great piano's no less the Bechstein, Blitner and Pleyel. Personal taste has a lot to do with it.
In Sweden Grotrian-Steinweg uprights are rather common, but you don't see the grands so often. IMHO I think that especially the Grotrian-Steinweg uprights are very nice pianos. They are not as bright and powerful as the Steinway uprights (or especially the Yamahas), but are more soulful, mellow, delicate and sensitive.
I played a modern Grotrian upright once, several years ago, and I quite liked it.
My mother-in-law taught piano in her home on an older Grotrian-Steinweg and hers said Grotrian-Steinweg on the plate inside. It had a very rich tone and she was not a wimpy piano player! lol!
The "pipe cleaner like" material looks like a soft buffing cord you'd use on intricate slatting. I agree, the top furniture looks like walnut. It may be replacement material that has the same finish on it.
Your microphone is great.
There's still Steinway Street in Queens where the factory was. My Grandparents lived around there.
Other industries have seen similar legal / territorial battles over names. As a photographer, I can relate the tale of the Exakta VAREX 35mm SLR, made in Dresden by Ihagee and introduced to world markets in 1951. The American Argus Camera company, however, claimed the name VAREX in the late 1940s to identify the lenses on some of their cameras. Ihagee was threatened with lawsuits, and rebadged the Exakta Varex as the Exakta VX for the US market. Collectors look for the first Varex cameras shipped to the US, as those can have nameplates with "Varex" crudely ground off, and a little metal tag with "VX" screwed or crimped over it.
That piano has an awesome tone, your playing it matches what it can do.
Have you had the chance to test the Yamaha YDP-144 or YDP-164?
Great stuff I'll never look at a Steinway again without contempt. Any dirt on the the Lester pianos?
Very charming and rare piano 👌
Very interesting. Thank you.
Fascinating
Glad you liked it.
I have a Gotrian Steinweg piano, with ivory keys (the touch is actually different) and was renovated (it is one frome the 1970's)
I own a Grotrian-Steinweg upright, model 130, from ~1926. Can you say that is a characteristic from the Grotrians to have a melow and warm sound? Mostly in the middle/bass range. Greetings from Argentina!
Ignacio Camean that has always been my experience of them. (Quarter of a century as tuner/technician) a lovely mellow singing tone.
The upper rim but how about the lower rim? How thick? And what is the bracing pattern underneath? I think it’s fascinating that most aspects of modern (20th C) pianos are somewhat similar but the bracing underneath grands takes various completely different forms.
steinweg was used on pianos, mainly german manufactured ones. my grandparents had a steinweg from the 1800’s or early 1900’s, they’re rare but they definitely exist
Grotrian Steinweg is actually steinway developed by henry steinway's son after he moved to the US. he partnered with someone named grotrian to create this.
Wow, sounds so amazing. Its very sweet sounding.
Thank you.
Obviously a good quality piano, either way. Of course, as I may had said before, all pianos have their own personality and there aren’t really any “bad” pianos. It would be interesting if you could find some of the other long gone brands like Ivers & Pond, George Steck, Lester, etc. Nice video, as usual. Thanks!
Very interesting, because I live in Germany and I have never seen this before. I it as Grotrian-Steinweg and here in Germany it is normal.
I really enjoyed this video
This piano sounds almost as a bösendorfer, it’s a pity you couldn’t play more one it. I love it when you play. Btw did you realize you’re microphone got some cracks? Interesting story. Just read the story and didn’t know this history. Strange to sue them. Little bit silly if you ask me. Anyway thank you for sharing and playing!
I was thinking it reminds me of my 1920 Bosendorfer 170.
Could you do a review on the Kawai K series ATX3 hybrid systems?
Beautiful instrument, remarkable voice... No wonder that lot I will not name sued, they were afraid, very afraid. I detest that vile lot in the extreme and will do nothing with their products except relieve myself on them or burn them for common firewood!
What’s the music around 4:50?
You must be new here. That’s the James’s go-to treble test piece. Written by him.
The sound is beautiful…..
Steinway And Sons Was Founded In 1853 In New York By Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg (A German Immigrant Who Americanized His Name To Henry E. Steinway) And Open A Factory In Queens New York While In The 1880s They Opened Their European Factory In Hamburg Germany.
Truly an object beauty!
Beautiful looking case on that piano. Not all that fussy about the plain black look of so many, even in a concert hall setting.
Thought you might comment on tonal quality and market value?
I was about to scrap my old piano, then decided to see if it was any good. Turns out it is a Grotian-Steinweg model 125 (1927) in near mint condition, hardly used even. (Some scratches in the paint). Since people seem to think its a good piano, it seemed like a shame to destroy it and throw it away. I can't play it and don't think I have any talent to learn how too. But perhaps someone else will get some enjoyment from it if I can sell it.
I like your channel.....if only I could play the damn thing.
You should have pretended to try to rip the badge off to see if the full name was behind it. The owner would have flipped out
It may have heavy action but the tone is lovely.
It was very interesting to hear your comments on Steinway taking Grotrian to court over the name when you consider that when Heinrich first moved to New York and before they got the factory up and running the pianos they sold were made in the Braunschweig factory imported to America but they had the Steinway name on the front of the piano. I saw one of these pianos last year first one I`ve seen in forty five years in the piano trade touch and tone were good for it`s age. As for Grotian & Steinweg pianos always very good.
Great Brand of pianos!!
The piano sounds great
“Natural key tops”’ - Is it offensive and inappropriate to say ivory keys?
There is a small but vocal group the believe that all pianos with ivory keys should have them removed and thrown away and that of course being the final insult to a great animal.
PC Time! "Ivory" is out. "Natural" is in.
Question : I'm about to dispose of an old spinet with 'natural' key tops. Are those tops of any value to anyone?
@@annode I think so, but it could be tricky to sell them.
Barry Steinhart you could try piano restorers or museums of musical instruments who need to repair pianos
Are 'friends' electric?
I'm new to pianos, so don't hate on me, but what's the song he played?
What do you mean by "natural" key tops?
I assumed "natural" to mean the use of "ivory" for the key tops. Somewhere mid-presentation, I heard "ivory" related to this instrument's key tops.
Newbie comment, what makes ivory so desirable for pianists? What are key tops now made of?
Ivory has this wonderful grippy, almost "sticky" feel to the top of the keys that make the keys less slippery and easier to control. Pianos these days have keytops made of plastic, which works fine but caused a big stir back in the 50's when plastic keytops were first introduced. Some companies like Yamaha and Kawai try to imitate the grippy feel of ivory with their plastic keytops, but they still don't feel the same.
Which music piece is this ?
Leuk 🏆
Nice tone at this low res and tiny speakers
„Weg“ is the german word for „way“. Maybe this is the reason for they sued them... greetz from austria
I believe it had more to do with the power Steinway once had in the United States, as Grotian-Steinweg was never stopped from using their name in Europe. If Grotrian Steinweg were to be stopped anywhere, if they were entitled, it would be in Germany were people would know that "weg" meant "path".
ThePianoforever That Sounds logical. Thx for your reply, thx for making all of these wonderful Videos. Love how you get so much different colours out of a Piano. I have two wishes:-) : 1. please Record your Test Piece (a Song Will Never be finished if you will wait too Long) 2.Another wonderful Test piece Is „over the Moon“ by John Williams. Maybe one day you can use it. It shows so much about the sound of a Piano.. Greetz from Austria (sorry for my english) and dont stop what you are doing ;-)
It really sounded like an original Steinweg.
Most likely it is East Indian Rosewood which often resembles Walnut.
How did Steinway win the case?
The only thing I miss is an evaluation of the sound of the piano ... do you like it/prefer it over a Steinway or another name? Is there something special about the piano other than the legal nonsense?
Grotrian-Steinweg pianos are considered to be excellent pianos, but I think this one would need to be finely regulated and voiced to bring out it's full potential.
👍🏼🤠
LOL, Steinway can only dream about being as good as a Steingraeber & Söhne
The wood looks like flat cut Louro Preto veneer. It is a high end wood that passes sometime for rosewood but is in fact in the cordia family rather than the true rosewood that is dalbergia family.
Well, for me Steinweg and Steinway are really very close names but, well, if there was a reason to be that way, they were somewhat picky to sue. It reminds me of fake and cheap "Mike" copies of "Nike" gear :-D
Steinweg is the original, German spelling of Steinway. Theodore Steinweg originally stayed behind in Germany, continuing to make high quality pianos with Grotein, while his father and brothers moved to New York in the 1850s and Americanised their name to Steinway. About 20 years later, Theodore joined the rest of his family. I seem to remember this was when his father died, but I could be wrong. So there is an historical connection between the two firms. Grotein Steinweg pianos are highly regarded still in Europe and are beautiful pianos. They are still tradionally made in Germany, not mass produced in China. I have a large upright from 1873, still going strong with a beautiful touch and tone.
I think the best comment so far was by someone who said that if Grotein-Steinweg can not sell pianos in the United States why is it that Steinway can sell pianos in Germany?
Mids and highs sound beautiful but the bass is a little "mettalic" in lack of other words. I didn't notice it when you played the piece but it aas obvious when you played bass only towards the end of the video.
Well - if Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg would've been as precise with his name translation as he was with his pianos the company should be called Stoneway anyway...
Steinway's have lost the plot completely.
Steinweg literally translates to Stoneway (from German). If you leave the Stein- part for coolness-reasons, it'll be Steinway. But since US legislation and global copyright are entirely broken, that's probably the reason for the mess.
They have no problem with using their full name outside of the United States.
I had no idea Steinway were such a bunch of law trolls. If I ever get to tell an opinion on a piano purchase, I'll do my best to steer the guy away from a Steinway.
I think it was a marketing gambit.
Screw Steinway, get a Bechstein!
De la sauce