12 Things to Know Before Buying a Used Piano
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2024
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James takes the process step by step on what we look for when purchasing a used piano. If you use this system for reviewing a piano you will likely be very happy with your purchase. - เพลง
If you like music, you might want to check out my second channel "Milan Recording Studios". Feel free to subscribe and hit the bell icon if you want to!
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1.Tuned well - out of tune can hide voicing errors
2. bridge - look for cracks in black painted area, usually perpendicular to strings, makes bridge pin move (older Baldwins esp). Typically happens in treble area of the bridge.
3. soundboard - hold very bright light on string side of soundboard, helper looks from other side for light shining through. Cracks can change the sound of the piano. if the crack is very narrow, can make a buzzing sound.
4. hammers - check wear, depth of grooves. should have lots of felt left, no chunks missing or loose staples. At the ends of the keyboards, there will be less felt installed because those notes are played less
5. strings. copper wound steel bass strings are first to fail - if lid left open, dust accumulates. holds moisture, so leave the lid down as much as possible. Strings are usually replaced every 20 years on a concert piano but in a home piano, possibly never if the strings are in good condition.
6. tuning pins - normally tarnished with age but no effect on sound. leave lid down prevents rust. Very badly rusted pins possibly stuck so tuning impossible
7. Exterior cosmetic finish - look at all sides.
8. keys - cosmetics: ivory highly desirable - pleasant texture - fingers don't slip but prone to chipping; chips may have sharp edges which can poke your fingers and interfere with playing. plastic keys are durable but a little slick.
9. pedals - there is a variety of effects, you have to check to know which your piano has.
Right pedal - 'sustain'; Must lift all dampers off the strings so they all ring freely, notes are “held” and keep vibrating. allowing sympathetic resonance in the whole piano. Holding down the sustain pedal while playing results in a rich tonal quality, causing the music to “flow” in a legato style.
middle pedal does different things on different pianos, a wide variety of possible effects. early 1900s piano, middle pedal may be absent
GPs - middle pedal: 'sostenuto'; lets the piano player selectively sustain certain keys or chords. if you play a key or keys and then depress the sostenuto, only the keys you play will sustain and there will be no sympathetic resonance in any other strings. These notes remain sustained until you let go of the pedal. If you keep the pedal pressed down and play other notes at the same time, those other notes will play normally without any sustain.
On cheaper Grands or uprights, sostenuto only raises the bass side of the dampers (bass sustain) - a limited form of sostenuto because sometimes you want to only emphasize the bass notes. Some early 1900s high end uprights, the middle pedal will give sostenuto on any strings played. Sometimes, the middle pedal is a 'practice pedal'; it lowers a strip of felt across all strings. Was used to quiet the instrument before electronic keyboards were invented. On some pianos, you push down and then to the left to lock the practice pedal in place so you don't have to hold it there with your foot.
left pedal - on a GP, 'una corda' ('one string') or 'soft pedal'; moves entire action to the side the distance of one string. A 'due corde' moves the action two strings. Playing with the una corda pedal depressed gives your music a softer, veiled tone with a different color, because a different part of the hammer with softer, less worn felt is striking the strings. This change in voice is more noticeable, the more the piano has been played.
On upright pianos the action isn’t actually shifted. This means upright pianos don’t have a true una corda pedal, but rather, a pedal often called the “half-blow pedal” since it moves the hammers closer to the piano’s strings (creating a softer sound). instead of hitting each string from the full distance, the hammer only travels half the distance, making it quieter and quicker. Remove the bottom panel on an upright piano and check to see that all parts of the mechanism are in place and functioning.
10. Dampers - all must lift off the strings equally when pedal is depressed. All felts must be in place. When you let off a key, the sound should stop. On an older piano, a string may 'sizzle' or 'buzz', muted but not fully damped. In that case, the dampers may have become hard and crusty over time so they engage the string more weakly than a new damper. Lowest bass notes are less damped The copper wound, thick bass strings are more massive and store more kinetic energy. But because all dampers are the same size, the damper on a smaller string is larger relative to the string than the same size damper on a larger string. So the damper on a large bass string is less effective; damping takes longer.
11. Play every note to make sure they all sound clearly, in tune, and sustain when held; all are damped with no buzzing when you let off. The note should swell and then gradually decay. Pay particular attention to the 6th and 7th octave. In the treble, the notes may decay too rapidly. The last few notes at either end are commonly out of tune. If one note in particular is way out of tune, it's unlikely the tuner missed that note, it's more likely a bad pin.Make sure all unisons are in tune. When two strings are perfectly in tune the attack part of the note will sound harder or tighter. The harmonics (partials) also will be more noticeable thus augmenting the "clarity" or "brightness" of the sound.As soon as one of the strings are getting "off", the sound become "duller" and less definite. Overall, a not so perfectly tuned piano will sound less satisfying and will loose definition. (definition = every note can be distinguished clearly)
12. Action - critical; your link to the music. Best tested by an experienced player. Not just absence of mechanical defects; the effect of the action is subjective, and relative to your strength, style and skill. If you switch from a soft action to a stiffer action, it takes more effort, and vice-versa. It takes playing experience to feel and hear the difference between great and mediocre action. Consider the piano's environment when you play it - high ceilings and hard surfaces in a big room will make the piano sound brighter and more powerful , and vice-versa.
Very helpful information. Just to add some thoughts. . . . A few cracks in the sounding board are not a big deal unless they cause the buzzing that you mentioned. The sound vibrations in the board travel along the grain, not across the grain, so cracks (which follow along the grain) have very little, if any, effect on the overall sound---- especially considering everything else that does affect the sound. It may be important cosmetically, in which case they can usually be repaired. However, sounding board cracks may indicate poor environment conditions in the piano history, with extreme temperature and humidity changes, and therefor may indicate other bad problems such as ruined felts and unstable pin boards. One more check: verify that there is some space between the bottom of the string wind on the pin and the top of the pin block, with fairly uniform distance on all pins (1/4"?). Some pins may have been hammered into the block too often in attempt to tightened them in a
loose board. Not good. Leaving the lid down except when playing is great advice to follow, for dust control and to help with temperature/humidity stability.
A piano restorer told me to look at the keys from one end, eyes level with the key tops. Variation in the key height shows how much the piano has been used since they were last levelled. Levelling is time consuming so is done seldom or never on cheaper pianos.
If the keys feel 'sloppy' - they wobble from side to side - it is an indication of heavy use. The keys can be fixed by refelting, at substantial cost, but the action will also be heavily worn.
What you might have mentioned is that even if the piano is in perfect tune in the showroom it will probably have to be tuned again after it is moved into your home.
Yes, of course all pianos go out of tune to some degree with even a small move, but we have found high quality pianos go out of tune far less during a move than lesser pianos. I was referring to pianos farther out of tune than that, ones that were so far out of tune as to hide very serious fundamental problems in the piano. High quality pianos go out of tune with a seasonal change more than any other reason.
Great intro into the working of the piano.
For used, older pianos, FIRST, check the tuning - look (listen) for abnormalities. Pick out the "bad" wire and put a tuning hammer on it to see if it can be corrected. If that particular wire will not hold tune, you've got pin block issues. Unless it's a high-end (unlikely) piano, it will NOT be worth the effort to replace the pin block. That's an immediate "no sale".
Thank you!!! GREAT advice about the lid on grands - can’t tell you how much dust I normally see in grands and how often they need thorough cleanings😄 I am saving this to share with tuning clients when they’re shopping for a used piano! Very comprehensive - pretty much all of the things that I check in a formal piano evaluation. 😁👍🏽
Recap:
1. Is the piano in tune?
2. Are there cracks in the bridge?
3. Are there cracks in the soundboard? Shine a bright flashlight over every inch, and have a friend sit under the piano to check if any light pierces through.
4. Are the hammers intact? Do they look normal, grooves the right depth, felt in place, nothing frayed?
5. Are the strings clean and in good condition?
6. Are the tuning pins normal coloured? Look silvery and fresh, no tarnishes from dark blue oxidation, no rust? If one note is out of tune, it would be because of the tuning pin.
7. Is the finishing still intact? No spots marks, scratches, dents, stains? Check the lid and its top, the spine, and underneath the keyboard cover.
8. How are the keys? Old ones probably have ivory keys, these may chip off a bit, which while fine are probably sharp and can mess up the way one plays. (Can dental filling fix this?) But most newer pianos have plastic keys, so this should not be an issue, chips would be strictly cosmetic.
9. How are the three pedals? Does the sustain on the right work? Does the middle pedal (sorry don't know how to spell "saucetonoodle") damp earlier notes other than the one you're playing? Does the left pedal help quiet down and change the tone of the piano to become warmer (compresses a section of the hammer)? Do all the pedals have a resistance?
10. Are the dampers fully functioning, at the right height? They have a black top and white felt bottom part--nothing gone?
11. Test every note on the piano, do all the keys work? When pedaled, do they all dampen or sustain normally, no weird buzz or ringing?
12. Test the action! How do you interact with this piano--subjectively speaking, are you feeling it, does it suit your taste? If in doubt, call a skilled and experienced friend, ask them to play the piano and give feedback on the action. But this also depends on the environment where this piano in--pianos may sound brighter in the showroom with hardwood floors than at home in a carpeted room. Try get the piano from a dealer that has a similar environment to the room you'll have the piano in at home.
Man, I really learn't such a lot from this vid. Really informative and practical. Thanks, bro!
Bernard,
Thank you for coming by, and checking this video out.
Just found this video, thanks for posting! Looking at getting a 75 yr old Chickering baby grand and I’ve only ever owned older condition uprights. The key action was so firm my fingers were tired after only a few pieces! This video is making me very glad I have good advisors, I’m taking a tech with me to look at it again, there is so much to look at that I didn’t even think about 😳
The smartest thing I know is to have professional a technician check the piano. Even if we know a few things there are so many things to compromise the sound that can not be fix easily and some can not.
Such a great, helpful, channel!
Hey James ... Thanks VERY MUCH for Your extensive details with this very vital aspect of knowing about these 12 Things .. x
So very vital 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
Thanks 🙏🏽 MUCH 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
Great video, James. Thanks so much.
Regards,
Carol
This was very helpful, thank you 🙂.
Hair cut looks great. Very good and thorough inventory of important issues.
Wow, comprehensive indeed. Thank you!
It would be helpful if you could show a piano with the problems that you state might be present, like missing dampers and rusted strings. We could hear the difference between that and a well-restored piano.
Great point! I was going to suggest that.
This is very awesome and helpful thank yew !
Thanks for your postings very informative and you are also a great player.🎹
The quiet pedal : on an upright piano sometimes a quiet tone is not brought about by inserting a felt between the hammers and the strings but rather by moving the hammers closer to the strings so the striking distance and thus velocity is decreased.
Excellent video and very informative !! Thank you!
Donald,
I really think this is one of my best so far.
Super nice video! thanks alot!
Not all tuning pins are chrome plated. Many including some Steinway models used “blued” tuning pins. Chrome rusts. The blued pins are the ones that turn darker and also rust.
Outstanding educational video, very helpful. Thank you!
Thank you for the visit.
Excellent, excellent video!
Very good.. I'll need this info..Thanks
very useful demo!
and i always thought if i don't know everything about all instruments i do know a few things about pianos at least ...
sounds like i wasn't quite right after all ... :-)
Loved this video !!! come down to Argentina , and we´ll do some piano hunting ! hope you are well , take care !
Years ago we bought a used upright Piano for a few hundred dollars off of ebay. It was by a local seller, so it didn't cost very much to move. We had it tuned by a rather famous piano tuner, Hi Babit, (he died a few years back) several times while our daughters were living with us, they took lessons for many years. It's a small upright, a spinet I think. Very nice sound (to my ears), though there are some quirks in the action. Still, a very good buy on a student grade piano, and it fit our living room nicely.
Tuning the piano is very important, and everyone knows that, but it is also important to regulate that action. If a piano is well regulated one tends to want to practice more.
Thank you man. I'm about to go see a 1902 Lester baby grand (mahogany) that seemed in good shape on the first visit. I'm going with a technician now. I don't play piano. This piano is for my 3-year-old daughter, so I'm not looking for a Fazioli. I hope it passes inspection because I like it.
Thank you very much!
Awesome 👏
Terrific video! So educational, informative and even entertaining. If you're a piano lover (as I am), these are good things to know.
Suzy,
This channel is for people who love music, thank you for being a part of it.
Very welcome!
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!
Very helpful 👍
THANK YOU !!
Awesome video, James :-)
Matthias,
Always great to see you come by to our channel, and encourage others to visit yours as well.
Also, go through the keyboard chromatically with the una corda pedal down. Sometimes it can be out of adjustment or a particular hammer be out of adjustment resulting in the next note (chromatically) getting hit by the hammer resulting in a momentary minor 2nd sounding....not good! I also test for key repetition. You wand to go through at least the middle and top of the compass playing each note repeatedly as fast as you can (use both hands) this will point to worn action parts if you cannot achieve very fast, clear, and consistent note repetition.
Nice video, well done.
I sure wish I had you to take with me piano shopping
I just got my first baby grand piano, I love it so much! 275 dollars, no cracked soundboard, no cracked treble/bass bridge, decent condition outside!
What?! That's an awesome deal!
Really great. I have 3 digital pianos to practice on but take lessons on a couple of different grands. The first one I started lessons on (Petrof) had noticeably firmer keys, or more resistance, than my main practice digital. Then (I am really spoiled) the other grand is an '82 Steinway where the action was very very similar to my main practice digital - so I learned that the acoustic pianos can have a pretty wide range. Your walkthru taught me a ton more about what is going on "in there." Cheers...
So glad you enjoyed the video.
The weighting of the keys on a grand piano is adjustable as is the voicing. Every piano is different. My piano teacher played every Steinway concert grand in 3 warehouses to pick his.
I'm wondering which 3 digital pianos you have......and which one is your "main practice digital"? I'm considering getting a digital piano......besides having my grand.
My 1990 Yamaha WX-7 upright has a sostenuto pedal.
A rarity, but some pianos use the middle pedal for a "banjo" or "tack" stop... lowers little tacks on felt in front of the hammers to give a pluckier sound. Usually seen on old school saloon pianos.
As a sort of "intermediate level" vintage record collector I am looking behind you at the Victrola in the corner. Is that a VV-XVI? Hard to get detail, since it is obviously not the focal point of the video and is in soft focus. In the existing lighting it looks like the finish is either Golden Oak or American Walnut. In honor of the Victor Talking Machine Company and you, I am now going to listen to a few acoustic 78s on my 1917 VV-XVI in a fumed oak finish. Victor Red Seals selected for tonight will include Josef Hoffman, Jan Paderewski, and Olga Samaroff (AKA Mrs. Stokowski #1 of 3, AKA Lucy Hickenlooper).
oh my gosh....YOU really helped me...i'm new piano student...67 yrs old...I got a Boston 178 GP...I LOVE it
but paid way too much...oh well.
bruh
good luck with it
Thanks 👍🎹🎹🥳🇪🇨.. Good video 🎹🎹🎹🤔😃
Great video! In one video somebody slapped the metal frames to test by sound that they were not made from the thinnest and cheapest stuff to differentiate the cheap range asian grands.. I have an old german midrange grand, it has seasonally one damper a bit slow to come down so note rings a tiny bit too long sometimes. (Damper felts are renewed a few years back so not worn) Is this typically a quick fix say under 15 min in the hands of an experienced tuner?
It seems all these would be very easy to see and check out on any type of grand....but what about on uprights of varying sizes?
Important Information
Thanx for sharing..
Now waiting for new Video.
Rj India
rrjjgg,
Great that you enjoyed the video.
@@ThePianoforever Thank you..I always enjoy your video about Pianos.
Cool Video
Thank You
You are welcome.
@@ThePianoforever uh huh
One time, I did a big bluesy backhanded slide on an old piano at my high school - the ivory had been pilfered by some delinquent - my hand is as sliced open from top to bottom. I still have the scar.
a detuned piano can also hide pinblock issues too, which is way more expensive to fix than voicing.
Really nice. I’m going to look an old piano and it had the tuning pins replaced. I would like to know if a non technician like me could know if the work was good and the parts used to replace are really good as well as if other parts will need replacement. I guess felt parts are original even though it is from 1928.
It takes a lot of knowledge to identify problems with a piano that old, and since I can't see/hear/play it, I really can't say for myself whether or not it's a good buy or not.
I bought an 1832 Heinrich knauss sohne. I believe Friedrich Buschmann put it together as under the serial numbers a man named Buschmann signed his name.
Can all of these tips work as well for looking at used Yamaha cp 70/80s? Thank you!
Not really, you'll have a separate set of issues and problems to watch out for with those.
An excellent presentation; quite comprehensive. But you didn't mention the pin block. Isn't it important to check?
I really don't think most sellers of pianos would want a novice piano buyer to start adjusting or playing with the tuning pins.
I always want to know how does a harpsichord sound like but i dont know if its a great deal can you do a video about harpsichords
If he hasn't had time or opportunity to do that, yet, you can hear a harpsichord built from the same plans as classic composers would have played and also a clavichord at th-cam.com/video/4uCCw_hmILA/w-d-xo.html (part 1 - you'll also want to listen to part 2)
Don’t even know why I’m watching this I’m picking up a free piano not like I’m gonna return it lol.
How's the upright piano one?
restord or New smaller piano for same price,?
I need some help identifying an old baby grand I've acquired and can't find anything on the internet. Hopefully you can assist me. It's a Bauer Brothers New York ebony concert baby grand. Any help will be much appreciated. Gonna try and sell it but I have no idea what the value of it is. It's been in a storage locker for almost 10 years. I was told it is very old and has ivory keys. Thank you.
Just curious, what fingering did you use for the chromatic scale? I would love to move that fast through the scale.
Usually we just do
fingering 1 (thumb), 2 (index finger) for adjacent white keys,
from white key to adjacent black key we usually do fingering 1, 3 (middle finger) and
black key to white key we usually do fingering 3, 1.
That's it.
Chromatic scales are really easy, trust me ;)
When did Steinway and other USA piano builders discontinue Ivory on new pianos?
Because they had to get the ivory from elephant tusks. That is illegal nowadays.
The middle pedal on my Yamaha U3 engages the silent mode. No hammers hit the strings.
For most piano players that is the best it will ever sound.
Sostenuto pedal will be able to find in Grand piano but not upright. As I know some high quality upright might have it.
My mom has a 1898 Steinway Model A artcase which has an amazing sound I believe it is the quality of soundboard. I has some loose tuning pins and unfortunately a hairline crack in the soundboard. A technician offered to restore it but wants to replace the soundboard that seems like a mistake to me. Does anyone restore antique Steinways without replacing the soundboard I am afraid there’s no one who can do a proper restoration
A piano from 1898 has two points of interest, the first of course is that of a musical instrument and the second as a antique. In a situation like the one you have, you must strike a balance between the two. To answer your question directly, if the piano is not buzzing and has good projection, you might not have to do anything to the soundboard. If it is buzzing or has low volume you can always have the soundboard shimmed. There are some rebuilders that specialize in this type of work. The hammers and other action parts should be replaced.
Helpful hint: If you had made the thumbnail a shot of your white socks close up, this would probably go viral.
High quality socks, just like the high quality wearer.
What can you tell me about a Mason & Hamlin piano built in 1919, the reason why I’m asking you it’s because I would love to have an old piano in my house and probably take some piano lessons.
It comes from a great time, but unless it has received a lot love recently it will need work on the action to begin with. Typically the soundboards on Mason and Hamlins age very well, so the action likely will be the biggest issue with it. You could even put in a new action if you wanted. (But this will be expensive.)
Hi. I'd like to sell an old Wurlitzer. I see some keys are chipped at the ends. How much does that affect the value?
That would of course depend on the overall condition and of course the model of the piano. Many Wurlitzers have limited value.
The hammer on my piano are so dented in that there are two notes where hits hits the string next to it
@ThePianoforever a man has a Young Chang baby grand for sale. Has not been tuned in over 10 years. My mother has always wanted one. I have a bad feeling about this. It's beautiful to look at. However, we are looking for a musical instrument not a piece of furniture. His decorator said this "piece" would really make a statement for this room. He wanted $7000. Now he is down to $3250. What would you do?
Young Chang pianos have never been known for having good longevity, quality, or playability. Personally I'd avoid low end brands like that and choose a quality used piano from a respected brand like Baldwin or Mason & Hamlin; you'll pay a bit more but it will serve you well for many years to come.
@@ThePianoforever Thank you so much for responding so quickly. I really appreciate it.
🎼🎹💜
That chromatic scale was so fast
Where are you located
James, I have some questions, though!
1. You showed how to do tip#3 (checking the soundboard) on a grand piano. Does this apply to upright pianos too, and if so, how?
2. What if you already own the piano (like maybe the 30-year-old, badly maintained piano at the parents' house that just sounds awful and has a key that doesn't bounce back up)? When you find any of these 12 going wrong, what do you do?
Most upright pianos will have a good soundboard. Sticky keys are generally an easy fix.
13th thing to know: does the piano make any sound?
Why are the bass strings the first to fail and most important to look for?
The most common reason for bass strings to fail is because most owners love the way a grand piano looks with the lid open, but that also allows dust and grease in the air to fall on the bass strings bringing a early demise to the wound strings. It is also true that after about 40 years that the copper wound part of the string tends to stretch giving the strings a tubby sound, some techs will wind the strings to give them a little added life.
@@ThePianoforever thank you, James
Do you have an opinion on imitation ivory keytops? They’re very nice, but most manufacturers don’t manufacture don’t make the pianos with those, but they are available for technicians like myself to put on keys for folks if they want another option besides plastic.
Kawai and other brands do offer their version of imitation ivory keytops, but honestly there are two type of keytops, real ivory and everything else. I guess some may disagree, but I have never seen imitation ivory keytops that come close to the real thing. Thank you for following my channel.
Hours a day practicing and studying piano… One hour going through sock drawer for cleanest, least holey socks
6:32 "steel-wounded copper" for the bass strings should be "copper-wound steel"
ytteman He said “steel wound in copper”, which is correct.
I’m not sure why I’m watching this video. I have an upright piano from 1927 that probably hadn’t been played in 30 years. The finish is shot. The strings and tuning pins are rusted. I’m yet to find out if it will hold a tuning for any usable length of time. But hey, it was free!
This is a good opportunity to learn piano tuning!