Zeblasky here. Yesterday, when this game was played, I was testing this matchup with Sooth for a long time. About 6 games was played, 4 different WE builds were tried out, and this was the closest I've managed to get to a win. If Spellsinger would have lived for a at least 2 minutes more, this could have been a win, but she accidentally died so fast in that chaos, and I did not had enough money to put her on the Unicorn(40% magic resist vs GK FTW!) So yes, currently Brettonia vs WE on an open map with pro players is extremely hard for WE, about 75/25 in Bret Favor. Sure, if there is a good forest on the map, you can camp it with the main force, while harassing your opponent with auxiliary Dragons or Glade Riders, which makes this matchup somewhat even. But if there is no forest, well, you get lanced. Still, fear not, WE fans, I am yet to surrender and have 1 more build to test out later x) And yes, right now Brettonia is definitely not the weakest faction in the game, as some would like to claim. While they still struggle versus factions with good Anti-Large armored monsters, they have quite a few good matchups as well. They counter all 3 elven factions - HE got it the worst, while DE have the best chance, but this is still not in their favor. With pro micro Bret cavalry can be extremely efficient(borderlining on broken in certain cases), while their peasants are extremely cost effective for what they need to do.
agreed, BUT I think these advantages and deficits are amplified at the highest levels of play, where people have optimized their builds, have very good micro, and understand each faction very well. i dont think the average Bret player vs. the average Wood Elf player goes 75/25 towards Brets. no question, it can be a challenging matchup for Wood Elves though
Well, that's kinda true, but it heavily depends on a build. If an average player will try to simulate what Sooth is doing, he will have much more trouble with constant lancing and cycle charging. Such cavalry control takes a lot of micro. But there is a much easier build with Grail Guardians and the Fey blob. Grail Guardians under healing take a looot of time to kill, while munching WE infantry like harvesters. Mortis Fay can get up to 100 kills as well in such situation. All the while you still have to protect your backline against Knights Errant or just swarming Men at arms. There was a semi-reliable counter in a form of glade Guard with Starfire, but after they have lost their magic attack, it's 20% less damage vs GG and GK. They could still work though, as they have 20% more cost effective DPS(and they deal much more damage up close) and almost twice more HP if compared to Waywatchers.
great game! How about a wooden death star, mixing speardancers with treekin and Durthu to mass-block the charges? Plus pit of shades seems really good vs cav when you force the blob (but that's 2 casters). Maybe still not enough, but maybe a static approach is the way to go instead of contesting mobility. And yes, losing magic on glade guard was a trade-off between bret and dawi match-ups, not sure if positive. I think WE need a real melee glass cannon vs cav. Speardancers are too much alike a frontline unit, they should have less models but hit harder to really exploit short windows of opportunity vs cav. More like giant slayers.
I think that the map heavily favoured the Brets, had there been forests there the WE player could have used that as a base to run back to from the knights. Fighting in an open field without so much as a pile of dirt of a hill on it against cav is just asking for trouble.
beautiful game indeed, for a general (of course not in real life) a good view of a charge from both sides is devastating, it´s beautiful to see things when they work. when you practice a strategy and it works just feels so well
Milk and cookies you are the best total war Warhammer you tuber, your commentary and battles are all superb Can you do a dawi campaign plz I love the dwarves and seeing you play them would be legendary
Did blade wardancers always have that animation? I know spear wardancers do a flip and pole vault but I never saw that one. I really hope that some animators could come up with a way to import new animations to other units via mod.
What I get from this is that if the Bretonnian micros their cav well and keeps the earth bloods going You don’t stand a chance. On that note would focusing their spell-caster and taking their heal off the board change anything? Or is a good cav micro gonna beat you no matter what.
Did you really feel like Wood Elves didnt stand a chance that battle? Despite losing their Waywatchers and Spellsinger early on the battle was still quite close at the end. I'd say the matchup is definitely in favor of Bretonnia given players of equal skill, but yes Wood Elves can most certainly win it, even with good cav micro from Bretonnia. killing the Prophetess would be huge yes, her heals were a big reason why so many of those badly damaged cav units were still fighting in the late game
no i think it was a good fight, i just feel like bretonnian cavalry might be a little too good especially grail knights. to me at least always having to give up the cavalry fight puts a-lot of factions at a disadvantage.
How come bretonian cav don't fatigue? These guys been trucking and cycle charging for the whole battle - whenever I use Cav they completely spent after the first few charges.
Its only Grail Knights, Grail Guardians, and Royal Pegasus Knights that dont get Fatigued, and thats to show their super human stature and give Bretonnia a leg up in the cav fight (because their infantry is pretty terrible)
Almost at turn 200 with my bretonnia Deus Vult campaign and the wood elves are finally enemies with literally everyone. What builds should I use for a grand crusade into their woods?
ben laster I use Alberic with heavy infantry build, Foot Squire spam is not exactly elegant solution but bringing cav into wood maps is just asking for suicides.
i mean they could go cav heavy and outmicro a wood elves player, yes. but their cav is much less suited to the task. No Lance Formation, No Perfect Vigor, no Physical Resistance, and lower killing power than Grail Knights
Well zeblasky concluded that his build plans didn’t quite work out as we can see. I think originally he was trying some shenanigans with Orion and I assume this was the best build he came up with from their tests
Yeah the utility you get out of net is just too much to pass up. I feel durthu may have a place here though since he still does have plenty of armor and you are forced into turtling a bit
Nice video, Soothsayer is such a micro monster! That being said, In "Fleur de Lys" you have to prononce the "s" in "Lys" (so in English it would be prononciated "lee's") how you say is "lit" that mean bed in French, just tossing that ayound, yo.
i always tell myself when i play this game i need to get better at micro, (i really do need that though) but this is just.... wow....Im not the best TW player at all, but this level of micro, is BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION
Dwarfurious I kinda was in this one. I like rooting for the underdogs sometimes. I never once got the feeling the elves had any chance in this game though. Even from the very first second.
Elves are never underdogs though; even in a bad matchup, so fuck'em. Brettonia is a faction that could use some love; when have they been a consistently top tier pick?
Edge? These two players are incredibly good at their respective races and I have faced both on ladder. How are they "Not bad" when they've both managed to beat me at the very least three times each. Like, if you want to act all sage and wise, don't do it toward two players who are extremely good at the game.
1) chill the hell out, 2) who fucking cares warhammer is mah, 3) stop being a sour puss and stop assuming stuff all I said was Not bad take your trigger ass and chill and rethink your life. Dude you got trigger cause someone said not bad.....whats next you get all ranty cause someone else will say Ok
Zeblasky here. Yesterday, when this game was played, I was testing this matchup with Sooth for a long time. About 6 games was played, 4 different WE builds were tried out, and this was the closest I've managed to get to a win. If Spellsinger would have lived for a at least 2 minutes more, this could have been a win, but she accidentally died so fast in that chaos, and I did not had enough money to put her on the Unicorn(40% magic resist vs GK FTW!)
So yes, currently Brettonia vs WE on an open map with pro players is extremely hard for WE, about 75/25 in Bret Favor. Sure, if there is a good forest on the map, you can camp it with the main force, while harassing your opponent with auxiliary Dragons or Glade Riders, which makes this matchup somewhat even. But if there is no forest, well, you get lanced.
Still, fear not, WE fans, I am yet to surrender and have 1 more build to test out later x)
And yes, right now Brettonia is definitely not the weakest faction in the game, as some would like to claim. While they still struggle versus factions with good Anti-Large armored monsters, they have quite a few good matchups as well. They counter all 3 elven factions - HE got it the worst, while DE have the best chance, but this is still not in their favor. With pro micro Bret cavalry can be extremely efficient(borderlining on broken in certain cases), while their peasants are extremely cost effective for what they need to do.
agreed, BUT I think these advantages and deficits are amplified at the highest levels of play, where people have optimized their builds, have very good micro, and understand each faction very well. i dont think the average Bret player vs. the average Wood Elf player goes 75/25 towards Brets. no question, it can be a challenging matchup for Wood Elves though
Well, that's kinda true, but it heavily depends on a build. If an average player will try to simulate what Sooth is doing, he will have much more trouble with constant lancing and cycle charging. Such cavalry control takes a lot of micro. But there is a much easier build with Grail Guardians and the Fey blob. Grail Guardians under healing take a looot of time to kill, while munching WE infantry like harvesters. Mortis Fay can get up to 100 kills as well in such situation. All the while you still have to protect your backline against Knights Errant or just swarming Men at arms.
There was a semi-reliable counter in a form of glade Guard with Starfire, but after they have lost their magic attack, it's 20% less damage vs GG and GK. They could still work though, as they have 20% more cost effective DPS(and they deal much more damage up close) and almost twice more HP if compared to Waywatchers.
That was insanely entertaining to watch! What APM do TW pros usually average?
5
great game! How about a wooden death star, mixing speardancers with treekin and Durthu to mass-block the charges? Plus pit of shades seems really good vs cav when you force the blob (but that's 2 casters). Maybe still not enough, but maybe a static approach is the way to go instead of contesting mobility.
And yes, losing magic on glade guard was a trade-off between bret and dawi match-ups, not sure if positive.
I think WE need a real melee glass cannon vs cav. Speardancers are too much alike a frontline unit, they should have less models but hit harder to really exploit short windows of opportunity vs cav. More like giant slayers.
Wuuuuut that animation was sick af! I didn't even know they did that nice replay lol
I generally like Wood Elves more than Bretonnia, but that charge from two different flanks that weaved between one another gave me shivers.
"sisters of the thorn start tossing a bunch of peasants off"
*Rub thighs*
God I wish I was a Brettonian peasant getting my head chopped of by a hot elf woman covered in dirt
12:06 Was gonna make the same comment but saw you already mentioned it......hilarious! xD
12:17 The Grail Knights have got their magical lances into the Sisters! xD
A Haiku:
Bretonnian knights; Skewering kipnapping elves; The Lady is pleased?
i like the question mark at the end, thats a nice touch
Ah thank you. I am going to make Haikus on your Warhammer videos from now on.
12:04 that guy getting thrown around in the background is hilarious :D
hahahahaha, amazing! Thanks for that NjonJ
Just getting ‘tossed off’ by some wood elf ladies XD
The Farcical Aquatic Ceremonies triumph once more!
I think that the map heavily favoured the Brets, had there been forests there the WE player could have used that as a base to run back to from the knights. Fighting in an open field without so much as a pile of dirt of a hill on it against cav is just asking for trouble.
only a fool would meet the bretonnians on an open field
its definitely true the more woods the better it is for wood elves
Adopotato Tomb Kings can do it.
That was an incredible game! Need more quality games from these top players. Really entertaining cavalry micro from TS, and awesome trap by Zeblasky!
Great play from the Betronnia player. Using the meatsh... I mean pesants, effectively.
I watched that slow mo sync kill 5 times in a row that was amazing!
oh yeah!
beautiful game indeed, for a general (of course not in real life) a good view of a charge from both sides is devastating, it´s beautiful to see things when they work. when you practice a strategy and it works just feels so well
I am pretty sure it would've been just as devastating for a general in real life to see his men get tossed around by very scary horseboys xD
Milk and cookies you are the best total war Warhammer you tuber, your commentary and battles are all superb
Can you do a dawi campaign plz I love the dwarves and seeing you play them would be legendary
Kayvaan Shrike Not micro intensive enough for him :)
Grombrindal!
Wessel Teunis that’s a grudge
Into the Grudge book for you.
flattery wont get me to play a Dwarf campaign for TH-cam, but thank you for the compliments all the same I appreciate it :D
Holy fackknuckles batman, that was some BEAUTIFUL camera work there indy!
Great battle and great builds by both player. Very hadd match up for WE as you said indy. Love this new format.
That Calvary charge from both sides....... I have never seen any Calvary charge so amazing in my time playing total war. Fuck that was great
Awesome battle Indy!
Why are wood elves so skinny?
Because they have WeighWatchers. :P
.... *Sigh* ... what are we gonna do with you?
i like this content
Some sweet cinamatics, keep em coming.
Sisters of the Thorn tossing off some peasants hmm? Indy, you do have one sexy streak.
In the Immortal words of Tom and Bed - Warhammer is too sexy!
Brettonia is such a cool and fun race if you play them right
Also THAT THEME MUSIK! I get an orgasam every time i combo that with a cav charge.
FULL TILT! FOR THE LADY!
Man I love Bretonnia for their Knights, and this video showcased it.
Did blade wardancers always have that animation? I know spear wardancers do a flip and pole vault but I never saw that one.
I really hope that some animators could come up with a way to import new animations to other units via mod.
yep they've always had it. glade lords have it too. just pretty rare I think
This is just beautiful!
I wish I was good enough to micro cav like that. Love seeing cav dominate like this.
Had no idea Spell Slingers rode side saddle.... are there any sorceresses that ride bareback perhaps?
Woodevles: *kiting* LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Grailknights: that's what you think bitch! murdured.
What I get from this is that if the Bretonnian micros their cav well and keeps the earth bloods going You don’t stand a chance. On that note would focusing their spell-caster and taking their heal off the board change anything? Or is a good cav micro gonna beat you no matter what.
Did you really feel like Wood Elves didnt stand a chance that battle? Despite losing their Waywatchers and Spellsinger early on the battle was still quite close at the end. I'd say the matchup is definitely in favor of Bretonnia given players of equal skill, but yes Wood Elves can most certainly win it, even with good cav micro from Bretonnia. killing the Prophetess would be huge yes, her heals were a big reason why so many of those badly damaged cav units were still fighting in the late game
no i think it was a good fight, i just feel like bretonnian cavalry might be a little too good especially grail knights. to me at least always having to give up the cavalry fight puts a-lot of factions at a disadvantage.
How come bretonian cav don't fatigue? These guys been trucking and cycle charging for the whole battle - whenever I use Cav they completely spent after the first few charges.
Its only Grail Knights, Grail Guardians, and Royal Pegasus Knights that dont get Fatigued, and thats to show their super human stature and give Bretonnia a leg up in the cav fight (because their infantry is pretty terrible)
Almost at turn 200 with my bretonnia Deus Vult campaign and the wood elves are finally enemies with literally everyone. What builds should I use for a grand crusade into their woods?
ben laster I use Alberic with heavy infantry build, Foot Squire spam is not exactly elegant solution but bringing cav into wood maps is just asking for suicides.
Nguyễn Hồng Hải thank you ^^
So can Empire pull off the same tactics with Reiksguard and Knights of Blazing Sun?
mahhhhhhh maybe
i mean they could go cav heavy and outmicro a wood elves player, yes. but their cav is much less suited to the task. No Lance Formation, No Perfect Vigor, no Physical Resistance, and lower killing power than Grail Knights
Why is lance formation terrible against cav? Just wondering
Lance formation allows Bret cav to punch through infantry but against cav they won't push through while the enemy cav can wrap around.
Is there a way to find out their exact army composition?
you mean before the battle?
In the begining it seemed that he changes his mind at the last moment and switched to lance formation too close to the wood elves
that was EPIC !!!
Sometimes I forget that I'm listening in English and am surprised to hear certain words I still find strange :)
The sisters of the thorn start tossing a bunch of peasants off? A spot of hand relief?
Super great game!
this the kind of stuff id watch in my underwear at 3 am on tv, maybe with milk and cookies,......spiked milk and cookies
that sounds like the best night EVER
Coincidentally this upload comes directly after a round of wood elf vs Bretonnia hypothesiscrafting on the tournament discord...
was there a consensus from that discussion?
Well zeblasky concluded that his build plans didn’t quite work out as we can see. I think originally he was trying some shenanigans with Orion and I assume this was the best build he came up with from their tests
yeah I dont think Orion is the play in this matchup. Net is too important a tool for shutting down Bretonnian cav
Yeah the utility you get out of net is just too much to pass up. I feel durthu may have a place here though since he still does have plenty of armor and you are forced into turtling a bit
Seemed like you were rooting for the wood elves lol
am i the only one who would love to have a wood elf hero/general that mounts a stag? like, the lord of the wild hunt now mounts a stag...
yeah I would have liked to see a Great Stag as a mount option for sure
is there a Mod on this?
Debate about superiority of humans over elf kind I consider closed :)
>_> its not even a debate elves are overal better wining a battle doesn't prove anything
High cost missile infantry is suuuch a gamble
i think its a gamble often worth taking in this matchup though. its one of the best options for quickly dealing with Grail Knights
Nice video, Soothsayer is such a micro monster!
That being said, In "Fleur de Lys" you have to prononce the "s" in "Lys" (so in English it would be prononciated "lee's") how you say is "lit" that mean bed in French, just tossing that ayound, yo.
I think I just fell in love with that Wardancer. What a babe
Ride zem down for ze Lady!
this one makes me dizzy with all the spinning camera POV
Grail Knights owned again. I Clicked to watch how "experienced" wood elves deal with grail knights - answer is they can not.
nothing to see here(
they can. Spellsinger and Waywatchers were killed early, and most Bretonnian players are not Tlaxtlan Soothsayer
i always tell myself when i play this game i need to get better at micro, (i really do need that though) but this is just.... wow....Im not the best TW player at all, but this level of micro, is BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION
This how to not play wood elves
he's playing against one of the best players on the planet in a matchup thats absolutely horrible for Wood Elves to begin with
@@milkandcookiesTW i know
YOOOOOOOOO FIRST
Always love seeing elves get wrecked; it almost sounded like you were hoping for the elves to win though milky >:|
Dwarfurious I kinda was in this one. I like rooting for the underdogs sometimes. I never once got the feeling the elves had any chance in this game though. Even from the very first second.
Elves are never underdogs though; even in a bad matchup, so fuck'em. Brettonia is a faction that could use some love; when have they been a consistently top tier pick?
Wood Elves is also hard to use properly...And it also lose out to some new world factions. So, meh.
cause its just cave charges......that can get real old after a while
Dark elves are top teir, high elves are top teir very few factions can match them evenly
Not bad .....not interesting but not bad
Edge?
These two players are incredibly good at their respective races and I have faced both on ladder. How are they "Not bad" when they've both managed to beat me at the very least three times each.
Like, if you want to act all sage and wise, don't do it toward two players who are extremely good at the game.
1) chill the hell out, 2) who fucking cares warhammer is mah, 3) stop being a sour puss and stop assuming stuff all I said was Not bad take your trigger ass and chill and rethink your life. Dude you got trigger cause someone said not bad.....whats next you get all ranty cause someone else will say Ok
and it doesn't take extreme skill to get this game its on baby mode one of the reasons I stop playing to go play something worth my time to care.
Sephiroth Black-dragon Its pretty ironic that you don't realize how ridiculously triggered your response makes you look.
And your the type that thinks everything is a trigger, so you can mind your own business dipshit
can you turn off the in game voices please? hearing french accent shouting incessantly is rather annoying
not possible without disabling game audio