Sara Imari Walker on Physics, Emergence, and Life on Other Planets | Closer To Truth Chats

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 118

  • @mickeybrumfield764
    @mickeybrumfield764 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    I can't think of anything more interesting to learn more about than the physics of life. It seems so pertinent to where we are right now.

  • @davegrundgeiger9063
    @davegrundgeiger9063 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    This is brilliant. I'm grateful to have discovered this today. Now I'm off to read the book.

  • @paradigmshift3879
    @paradigmshift3879 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Evolve and transform = 224 = 8, English, In Chaldean = 78 = 6.
    Cern Particle accelerator = 225 = 9, English, In Chaldean = 78 = 6.
    Life As No One Knows It = 226 = 1, English, In Chaldean = 78 = 6.

  • @DesignDesigns
    @DesignDesigns วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Loved this podcast....

  • @jadebrownofficial
    @jadebrownofficial วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    I love listening to this channel but I'm going to listen on the website from now on because TH-cam has just gotten so out of control and craven with the ads quite honestly I'm listening to this and getting interrupted every 5 to 10 minutes with a freaking f****** ad.

    • @Alex-bl6oi
      @Alex-bl6oi วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      pay $10/mo to get rid of all ads. worth it for me

    • @Duane_Day
      @Duane_Day วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      If you are a TH-cam addict like me (hopefully not) it’s so worth it to have a subscription that gives ad free content. Hopefully it stays that way.

    • @Viktor-i8g
      @Viktor-i8g 7 นาทีที่ผ่านมา

      She is firing just like a machine gun😊

  • @RealQinnMalloryu4
    @RealQinnMalloryu4 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I had notification me when this video was uploaded on TH-cam

  • @SandipChitale
    @SandipChitale 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Looking forward to this.
    ​​Questions for Sara:
    1. ​​What does she think about Stephen Wolfram's Physics project and Observer theory?
    2. What does she think about Michael Levin's work on role of bioelectricity and cognitive light cones to define self?
    3. Is she panpsychist? Is she property dualist? Is she idealist like Bernardo Kastrup?
    4. What does she think about Hard Problem of Consciousness?
    5. What does she think about Free Will?

    • @theydisintegrate
      @theydisintegrate วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      It's all about informational lineages. I read her book "Life as no one knows it" twice. No panpsychism. No dualism, unless you count information as Descartes' soul. Free will is situational to your informational lineage.

    • @evaadam3635
      @evaadam3635 วันที่ผ่านมา

      "Physics, Emergence, and Life on other Planets"
      Physics - deals with physical causes and physical effects that govern the Physical World, as Materialists have claimed...
      Emergence - an idea worst than magic being concocted by miserable Materialists to explain how Consciousness came to be, while mocking the faithfuls for believing in magic... a bunch of hypocrites or what ?
      Life in other Planets - Materialists are so obssessed with Physics that deals with physical causes and physical effects but found themselves in limbo because they could not explain why physical causes are producing Spiritual Effect such as BELIEF in Spiritual GOD ?.. frustrated and desperate for an answer, they are now summoning intelligent aliens from other planets to help them solve their misery...
      Funny or what ?

  • @Cr4y7-AegisInquisitor
    @Cr4y7-AegisInquisitor 20 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

    This is great

  • @jamieoglethorpe
    @jamieoglethorpe 19 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    When Sara talked about us imbuing things around us with intelligence, I immediately thought of pop-up toasters: fairly simple physical objects with the intelligence to singe bread perfectly almost every time.

  • @HakWilliams
    @HakWilliams วันที่ผ่านมา

    I love how Robert made sure to remind everyone that he's "not sure if he agrees with Assembly Theory" about 5 times. Sara was not bothered as she understands scientists.

  • @TracyWitham
    @TracyWitham วันที่ผ่านมา

    Fabulous discussion! Was not clear whether the reification of information is simultaneous and coeval with the emergence of life. If so, is the contingent emergence of complexity required for life likely itself to produce a definitive (specific across multiple instantiations) reification? If not, the idea is weak. Perhaps a small point. Thanks for the wonderful ideas

  • @nasirfazal5440
    @nasirfazal5440 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Dr. Gobind Kharona of MIT recently ,received a Nobel prize by synthesis of living molecules from non living molecules,what does that tell you about the origin of life
    Dr Nasir Fazal Cambridge USA

  • @jamescronan7220
    @jamescronan7220 18 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Dr. Kuhn - Please interview the biophysicist Peter Hoffmann, author of "Life's Ratchet: how molecular machines extract order from chaos" - an antidote to biomysticism.

  • @MilushevGeorgi
    @MilushevGeorgi 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Can’t wait

  • @r2c3
    @r2c3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    6:10 the order of complexity required as a significant factor for any structural identity can not be less complex than necessary for any functional unit 🤔

  • @MilushevGeorgi
    @MilushevGeorgi 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    We are in this 3d realm to learn how discern while everything is conditional around us, discern wrong from right, lie from fiction, all that while nothing is guaranteed

  • @benn746
    @benn746 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I think she's onto the secret. I think the formation of life from nonlife and the process of evolution gives us a window into how the entire universe began and then evolved. There's an underlying process that's, you know not in...everything. Not talking Golden Ratio mumbo jumbo. But I think evolution gives us a glimpse at the process of creation, the secret to complexity, the reason why there is something rather than nothing. I think it can do all of this, and I think Ms. Walker is on the right track.
    What's at the end of the track? Oh well, that's the fun part isn't it: Trying to get there.

  • @gettaasteroid4650
    @gettaasteroid4650 18 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    They missed discussing the newly discovered red monsters including the awesome REBELS-25!

  • @MarkFaz72
    @MarkFaz72 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    We are a microchip in a quantum computer trying to understand how the computer works and was created.

  • @Ekam-Sat
    @Ekam-Sat 16 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    I am not sure how this aligns with the fact that spacetime is absolute (one) aka relative.

  • @jasonrunnels4698
    @jasonrunnels4698 3 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    I'm sorry but did she mention roughly 20 mins in that we understand how life originated on earth? She skimmed over it quickly and I think she even mentioned Darwin?? I might have misunderstood but we obviously we have absolutely no idea how life originated on earth

  • @the_velvet_void
    @the_velvet_void 12 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Block (Chain) Universe

  • @guillermobrand8458
    @guillermobrand8458 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    What is this pair talking about when they use the word "consciousness"?

  • @aosidh
    @aosidh วันที่ผ่านมา

    Oh jeez! Somebody ask her about the book Solaris if you get the chance 👀

  • @heresa_notion_6831
    @heresa_notion_6831 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Wow, waiting a long time for this. Of course I liked it. Assembly theory comports nicely with a religion I made up: God is a non-sentient creative tropism that blindly "hill-climbs" to maximize the product of repetition X variation. So the universe both has a teleology and approximately "values" something (it values the product). As there is a teleology, there can be an objective basis for morality (i.e., whatever causes the product to be greater). It does a slam dunk on things like *itler, but maybe has to work harder for things like *bort*on. Yeah, I'm putting random * in words to try and put off the yout*be d*mo*s that randomly ban my stuff.

  • @abdelchemami6964
    @abdelchemami6964 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I prefer to [be] a bench of codes rather than a pack of biological stuff that depends on food, oxygen, heat, sleep....and experiences unbearable pains.

  • @crazieeez
    @crazieeez 21 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Prediction vs Creation. Our educations taught us casualty. If A happens B happens. That's casualty logic. Yet when we observe things, sometimes they are not like that. This casualty logic is prediction. It is wrong. It treats time as linear.
    Creation is different. It includes casualty logic. Creation is about the total countable finite. We choose to determine which of the countable finite to be the outcome. For example, one can arrange a 52 cards deck to win 100%. Likewise, one can arrange it to win 50% or win 0%. Prediction is a small subset of the countable finite. Accordingly, a famous theorem called the Maximum Goodness Theorem states a countable finite has a maximum. Meaning if a system has a countable finite, its arrangement by a creator can yield maximum. Like a 52 cards deck. One can arrange it to win 100%. The same can be said with the economy. One can arrange $545T to yield maximum economic growth.

  • @angel4everable
    @angel4everable วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Sara is right that we need to rethink "what is matter"? Consciousness may be a matter that defies our present categories of materialism. The mind does not overpass matter but is a continuation thereof. Once the mind comes into being with a material substratum, it can react back upon the "gray matter" of the brain.

    • @GaggedByYouTube
      @GaggedByYouTube วันที่ผ่านมา

      Matter isn't self-aware - seriously - the taste of cheese is matter?

    • @angel4everable
      @angel4everable 18 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +2

      @@GaggedByTH-cam There are levels of awareness, e.g., self-organization, which is present in all matters, including chemicals. Consciousness seems particular to humans, at least for now.

    • @GaggedByYouTube
      @GaggedByYouTube 18 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      @@angel4everable I thought you can only be (properly) aware if you're conscious. If you're not conscious, then you're just a mechanism.

    • @Ekam-Sat
      @Ekam-Sat 16 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

      Consciousness and matter are actually one and the same thing.

    • @angel4everable
      @angel4everable 16 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      @@GaggedByTH-cam A false binary. For example, humans are aware of the past and future in a way, and to a length, no animal is or probably ever will be.

  • @MrKashes
    @MrKashes 13 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    she should get ahold of Proveen mohan and maybe the past could lead to were to look in the sky

  • @guillermobrand8458
    @guillermobrand8458 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Information plays a fundamental role in evolution. In fact, there is a mathematical equation, unknown to Sara, that "models" evolution

  • @kenlewis351
    @kenlewis351 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I wonder if Sara is, at heart, a latter Heideggerian?

  • @deadtoadsoup
    @deadtoadsoup วันที่ผ่านมา +9

    We learned the answer to the Fermi Paradox last week. The Great Filter called MAGA.

    • @stopchiyski
      @stopchiyski วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      I told exactly the same few hours ago in a conversation with a friend

    • @michaelhall2709
      @michaelhall2709 17 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

      Word. Hard to think that the once-promising squid-species inhabiting the second planet orbiting a red dwarf in the constellation Canates Venatici had their own version of Donald Trump, but there it is.

    • @deadtoadsoup
      @deadtoadsoup 15 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      @@michaelhall2709 Xenophobic xenomorphs are a universal constant equal to the squared inverse lack of scientific literacy divided by the population as a whole.

    • @willmpet
      @willmpet 12 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

      Make America not embarrassing again!

  • @guillermobrand8458
    @guillermobrand8458 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    The subject of consciousness has not been well addressed by humans since the emergence of Reason

    • @Bill..N
      @Bill..N วันที่ผ่านมา

      With respect, I think it HAS been addressed and at length too.. Peace.

  • @MilushevGeorgi
    @MilushevGeorgi วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    At some point during
    This interview the congressional UAP hearings will kick in

  • @douglinze4177
    @douglinze4177 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    One last thing, Quantum Dissolution/Quantum Discharges, Lightning in the Sky to the ground follows this New Quantum Law, Quantum Exclusion Zone Discharge, Dissociation As Wolfram physics put it, the simplest rule wins, like Rule 30, Exclusion Zone Quantum Magnetic Electric Logic Gated EZ’s Are The Most Efficient Avenue For Discharge Of Energy, PERIOD, they are frequency based quantum logic circuits… Put it like this, Frequency Creates 2-Dimensional Vedic Swastika Circuits; and in 3-Dimensions, Frequency Creates “Quantum Electric Tornados, that’s 3:6:9 Vortex BasedMath Physics correlated to “STRUCTURE”…

    • @Bill..N
      @Bill..N วันที่ผ่านมา

      Uhhh, maybe friend.. Unless you possess special knowledge that allows you to KNOW what is ultimately true, then you might consider clarifying that these ideas are merely opinions.. Yes?

    • @douglinze4177
      @douglinze4177 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @
      No, I have literally “Observed” the action… I also figured out an anti-Tsunami Magnetic Repulsion System…
      I Solved Anti-Gravity via Magnetic Pushing Power… The push causes interference and collapses the wave…
      Structured Water Shows Oxygen phase transitions, thus Discharging Stored Energy, That’s Light ITSELF…

  • @reasonandsciencecatsboardcom
    @reasonandsciencecatsboardcom วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Life is too unlikely to be an accident.

    • @halcyon2864
      @halcyon2864 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Nothing is an accident, accident do not exist, always a cause for everything, every phenomena, every event.

    • @anaccount8474
      @anaccount8474 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@halcyon2864 Radioactive decay isn't caused by anything

  • @guillermobrand8458
    @guillermobrand8458 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Sara's theory is half good and half bad. In conclusion, it ends up confusing

  • @guillermobrand8458
    @guillermobrand8458 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    In the scientific field, a half-baked theory can be a contribution, whereas a theory that has both truths and lies is a bad theory.

  • @guillermobrand8458
    @guillermobrand8458 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Sara knows that she wants to know what life and consciousness are. Does she know that she desperately wants to know what she is?

  • @dadsonworldwide3238
    @dadsonworldwide3238 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Olive branch she and pen rose gives may by some trads time but ultimately we simulate strong identifiers and all others get computed out into entertainment & mythology where it should've went centuries ago.
    This era of optimization on extended heels of renormalization where my heritage self sacrificed all this for greater good temporarily was also on wake of reconcilation reconstruction of our physical industrial American revolution.
    I'd argue strongly when we unlocked the keys to the cosmos it did all fall out & we did know.
    Thermodynamical image all emerging energetic actors is this way in the cosmos as well and the only thing holding back man made time in space is
    economic burdens taxonomically rule along with old traditions who tie in loose generalization get computed.
    Polymical hi ground only allowing deformity or mystification sitting on a merit of measure .
    I can say this because all assimilated to a seed of deterministic responsibility mixed multitude to simulate excersizism of all isms.
    We will have to put our kids in position to reorientate economic and kids to be reborn truly free from servitude of taxation.
    Its congruently written not only in my dna or bill of rights God's informed consent but its a line of measure dug up in history of nations people places and things.
    It is congruent & anchored upon fundamental feature in reality & true pragmatic common sense Christian objectivism.

  • @JP_26
    @JP_26 3 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Logos

  • @oandboo
    @oandboo วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    42

  • @Viktor-i8g
    @Viktor-i8g 6 นาทีที่ผ่านมา

    She is firing away just like a machine gun. 😊

  • @keithmetcalf5548
    @keithmetcalf5548 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    RLK!? Where ya been brother? Where'd you find this little fox at? I could listen to her talk smart stuff all day long ❤

    • @theydisintegrate
      @theydisintegrate วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Get her audio book "Life as know one knows it" she reads it herself.. I listed twice

    • @stegemme
      @stegemme วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      see Lee Cronin and also Lex Fridman

  • @complexintel
    @complexintel 7 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Takes me forever to make a life 😂

  • @guillermobrand8458
    @guillermobrand8458 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    It is absurd to claim to refer to "conscious artificial intelligence" if one has no idea what consciousness is.

    • @stegemme
      @stegemme วันที่ผ่านมา

      not necessarily. Unless you're ruling out all kinds of consciousness because we have no idea what consciousness is.

    • @guillermobrand8458
      @guillermobrand8458 23 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      @@stegemme Conscious Action explained
      Based on the information they capture with their senses, living beings with brains manage a utilitarian mental representation of the conditions that currently take place in their relevant material environment. This Mental Correlate is a kind of “photograph” of what is happening in the Present in the relevant material environment of the Individual, a Mental Correlate that we will call “Reality of the Individual”.
      Life experience, stored in the brain, allows us to give meaning to what is perceived. At the same time, as Pavlov demonstrated, life experience allows us to project eventual future states of the individual's relevant environment, generating expectations of action.
      Information from the Past, the Present and an eventual Future is managed by the brain. It is evident that the brain makes a utilitarian distinction between the Past, the Present and the projection of an eventual future.
      Human language allows us to incorporate into the mental correlate events and entities that are not necessarily part of what happens in the world of matter, which gives an unprecedented “malleability” to the Reality of the Individual. For the unconscious, everything is happening in the Present. When a child, whom I will call Pedrito, listens to the story of Little Red Riding Hood, said entity is integrated into the Reality of the Individual. In turn, for the child, this entity is “very real”; he does not need his eyes to see it to incorporate it into his mental correlate of the relevant environment. Thanks to our particular language, authentic “immaterial and timeless worlds” have a place in the Mental Correlate of the relevant environment.
      In the first four years of life, the child is immersed in an ocean of words, a cascade of sounds and meanings. At this stage, a child hears between seven thousand and twenty-five thousand words a day, a barrage of information. Many of these words speak of events that occur in the present, in the material world, but others cross the boundaries of time and space. There is no impediment so that, when the words do not find their echo in what is happening at that moment in Pedrito's material environment, these words become threads that weave a segment of the tapestry of the Reality of the Individual.
      Just as the child's brain grants existence to the young Little Red Riding Hood when the story unfolds before him, similarly, when the voices around him talk about tomorrow and a beach with Pedro, as happens for example when his mother tells him says: -“Pedrito, tomorrow we will go for a walk to the beach”- the child's mind, still in the process of deciphering the mysteries of time, instantly conjures the entity Pedrito, with his feet on the golden sand, in the eternal present of childhood.
      Although over time a strong association between the entity Pedrito and his body is established in the child's brain, a total fusion between said entity and the child's body can never take place, since for the Unconscious the bodily actions of Pedrito They only take place in the Present, while the entity Pedrito is able to carry out actions in authentic timeless and immaterial worlds. The entity Pedrito is what we call the Being, and we know its action as Conscious Action.

  • @Paine137
    @Paine137 18 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Davies = Templeton stooge.

  • @Maxwell-mv9rx
    @Maxwell-mv9rx วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Why she keep out experiences in physic? It consequencies she are talking wortheless and a lot rambling lol.

    • @deadtoadsoup
      @deadtoadsoup วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Someone is.

    • @Ekam-Sat
      @Ekam-Sat 16 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      Hipster drivel.

  • @SandipChitale
    @SandipChitale วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    In discussion about reductionism Sara seems to make a strawman of reductionism and says that it ignores deep time history. That is not true. In many cases (example coming soon) for explaining the weak emergence one can do a contemporary only analysis as we go down the reduction ladder. For example, to explain the wetness of water molecules, we only have to look at the details of the valence properties of Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms and why they for H2O, the shape of the bonds, the strength of the bonds and how they behave at room temperature, the angles of the bonds, the residual fractional charge that causes hydrophilic behavior between molecules allowing fluidity and so on. Sure. And that is what people think of in many cases - contemporary cause and effect. Sure. But that the limitation of their own understanding of reductionism. Reductionism does not exclude time from its analysis. When it does I call it past-truncated reductionism. But time is also a physical property. And inclusion of passage of time, i.e. the history of objects and how they came about in terms of their contemporary physical components is to be included in the reductive analysis. The idea behind reductionism is that it explains the weak emergent behavior on the basis of physical components and time is physical (meaning physics) thing and has to be included if necessary. Of course. And it is true that sometimes it is good enough to 1 level deep to explain the weak emergence at a particular level. See the example of wetness of water above. Of course if we want then to understand the structure of H and O atoms themselves we have to go deeper. So? Also sometimes the concepts at a particulars level are explained in a language at that level, but once we enter the reductive behavior and drill down the levels we have to also downshift the concepts and the language to explain them at that deeper level and on and on... See the explanation of H and O atoms (not in terms of wetness, but in terms of valencies, bonds, residual charge, angle of the bonds which explains why the water molecules slide past each other causing fluidity and wetness (easy evaporation which cools things down which causes the feeling of wetness).
    In a similar way on another video on CTT George Ellis talks about top down causation which is descriptive name of "strong" emergence, and gives an example how a program written in higher level language can make computer do things at the lower level. IMO that is a breathtakingly shallow example of "strong" emergence. Even though that statement is true, it is not as if that is software program materialized spontaneously. It was written by a human. The computer hardware on which it runs was built by a human. Humans did not materialize spontaneously. They evolved over a very very very very very long evolutionary time. This is an example where the deep time must be part of the reductive analysis. Sara seems to allude to that. Sure but then she seems to imply that that is outside of reductionism. No. I call that and what George Ellis's example - past-truncated reductionism.

    • @evaadam3635
      @evaadam3635 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ..if we are evolving driven by natural INVOLUNTARY process of evolution, then why are we free to VOLUNTEER ? ... how can you be so incoherent but did not even notice it ?

    • @SandipChitale
      @SandipChitale วันที่ผ่านมา

      @evaadam3635 Huh?
      How can you be so culturally not evolved :) Biological evolution has been exceedingly superseded by cultural evolution in Humans since about 50000 to 100000 years. In fact this is why humans do things (altruism, cooperation, charity) that are counter to what biological evolution would have us do survival of the strongest .

    • @christianrelloso2649
      @christianrelloso2649 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@evaadam3635if someone throw a bricks in me in the moment I do not ask, what is free will? Do I need to avoid someone who throw bricks in me or face it and respond?
      It reminds me of this quote.
      “A successful person is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at them.”
      - David Brinkley

    • @SandipChitale
      @SandipChitale 15 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      @@evaadam3635 Huh? How can you be so culturally not evolved :) Biological evolution has been exceedingly superseded by cultural evolution in Humans since about 50000 to 100000 years. In fact this is why humans do things (altruism, cooperation, charity) that are counter to what biological evolution would have us do survival of the strongest .

  • @newtonfinn164
    @newtonfinn164 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Another entertaining tap dance around the subject of God.

  • @GaggedByYouTube
    @GaggedByYouTube วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    She talks complete nonsense! 😕

    • @S3RAVA3LM
      @S3RAVA3LM วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      She's an academician. That's like Christians following the clergy.

    • @GaggedByYouTube
      @GaggedByYouTube วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@S3RAVA3LM Whatever she is, I gave up listening to her. It was a different interview I saw, so won't be watching this one - complete waste of time!

    • @chuckding5590
      @chuckding5590 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Her views are novel yet rationale. An old man creator god is fortunately on the sidelines

    • @GaggedByYouTube
      @GaggedByYouTube วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@chuckding5590 She talks nonsense. She's not a scientist!

    • @Zen-d1z
      @Zen-d1z วันที่ผ่านมา

      What makes you say that. Whats your rebuttal. If it promps and/or creates a living Im all for it. Go or not its fine

  • @davidrandell2224
    @davidrandell2224 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Physics- pukka- started in 2002. So,no.