I enjoy your posts and they are very helpful. The issue with the relay pump and reverse lay is that it is a ton of work for that supply chauffeur to test the hydrant, connect his intake, open the hydrant, break the 5 inch and hope it reaches his LDH discharge and if not have a pony length to help make it. Then open his front suction and send water. Takes 3-4 minutes. Meanwhile you have his officer and nobleman standing in front of a fire unable to charge a backup line because the first due attack crew is running on their tank water.
Bravo. I wish I had thought to make a video about this. I have explained this to guys on my job several times with paper and pencil. We are a forward lay dept and should perform the reverse lay in many more situations. The other lay is the "Back stretch" where the 1st due lays out a static attack line to the plug leaving the front of the building free for aerial operations. Excellent video simple explanation of benefits of the reverse lay.
+Daryl Liggins thank you. I really started trying to discuss it a lot more years ago after a fatal fire really split us up doing a forward lay. We responded to a smell of smoke around 2am and on the way they came over the radio saying the caller is trapped inside screaming. Nose to nose companies arriving at the same time and split the companies up trying to get in as fast as possible. I caught the plug and by the time I made it to the door it was tough getting things back together to complete a good search.
We found that in our area which is a mid size city with grid like streets and hydrants on every corner and in the middle of every block. We pack our engines with 1000ft 5in, 650ft of 3inch wyed to 200ft 2.5 inch, 650 ft 3in wyed to 200ft 1 3/4 in separate beds. Basically apartment lays. We drop it just past fire building and reverse lay to hydrant, trucks take front of building. 2nd due engine backs down block and also drops everything and reverse lays to its own hydrant. All engine chauffeurs need to do is hit front suction and break at a coupling of whichever line or lines are needed. We have many 2 or 3 story frames packed closely together. We get 2 water sources within minutes with big water available. Attack pumper/relay doesn’t work well for us.
When I first started in the field, LDH was a very short, 50' section, to connect to the plug. The bed was split with each side holding 500' of 2.5" if we had a short lay we could lay a double line and use double male/females to hook up on one side. Relay pumping was used on almost every working call. Now with 5" LDH it is rare, but this showed a good reason why we still need the ability to pump. Love those LDH discharges.
Id say instead of having the two firefighters in the supply engine getting on a 2nd line and going in, they stay outside not to break the 2 in 2 out rule. The only exception to this rule is conducting a rescue op. But that doesn't mean they just sit there ready, they can set up the back up line, start laddering the building, Horizontal ventilation if situation allows, conduct a 360 if the IC hasn't done so already or initiate command if you don't have Deputies or chiefs responding immediately. Also a pet peeve is vehicle positioning, but great points are made here, great job
Good explanation. We operate a bit differently. We run 4 man engine companies, and require each engine company to have their own hydrant. We seldom reverse lay, but it’s a great way to keep the front of a taxpayer open for a tower company or a truck.
We use to do a forward lay from hydrant without connecting to said hydrant. Connecting to hydrant was second engines job just incase of hydant being bad or dead.
hey Matt, would your reasoning stay the same if your crews were showing up with only two people per apparatus? that's unfortunately the case where I work we run career pieces with two guys and will catch the hydrant first but then pass the connection to the medic unit. I agree totally with your reasoning and agree the reverse lay works great but in a urbanized area with more than two people on the appatus. like most things in firefighting I guess it just depends on all the variables.
Yea, a two man company changes things up. There are definitely still some advantages to reverse laying but in your situation it would be a little more difficult. I highly recommend the split lay though. It could be applied in several different situations running 2 man companies. Long narrow drive ways, steep hills, tight streets, etc. The passenger could jump out and throw a dry supply out in an accessible area for the next company to connect to.
Matt Hinkle, thanks Matt I agree with you completely as drivers we get focused a lot on getting our own water supply first, but very seldom do we realize what makes the most sense and how to get the water on the fire, fast, and with a full crew. I feel the split lay will be the go to lay for me for most of my first due especially with the staffing levels and how things often fall in place
Short, Simple and now makes sense! Thank you!
You’re welcome. Thanks for the compliment.
I enjoy your posts and they are very helpful. The issue with the relay pump and reverse lay is that it is a ton of work for that supply chauffeur to test the hydrant, connect his intake, open the hydrant, break the 5 inch and hope it reaches his LDH discharge and if not have a pony length to help make it. Then open his front suction and send water. Takes 3-4 minutes. Meanwhile you have his officer and nobleman standing in front of a fire unable to charge a backup line because the first due attack crew is running on their tank water.
3-4min? We do this on a regular at 2 min or less Many times you will have other chauffeurs assist if they are able
Bravo. I wish I had thought to make a video about this. I have explained this to guys on my job several times with paper and pencil. We are a forward lay dept and should perform the reverse lay in many more situations. The other lay is the "Back stretch" where the 1st due lays out a static attack line to the plug leaving the front of the building free for aerial operations. Excellent video simple explanation of benefits of the reverse lay.
+Daryl Liggins thank you. I really started trying to discuss it a lot more years ago after a fatal fire really split us up doing a forward lay. We responded to a smell of smoke around 2am and on the way they came over the radio saying the caller is trapped inside screaming. Nose to nose companies arriving at the same time and split the companies up trying to get in as fast as possible. I caught the plug and by the time I made it to the door it was tough getting things back together to complete a good search.
We found that in our area which is a mid size city with grid like streets and hydrants on every corner and in the middle of every block. We pack our engines with 1000ft 5in, 650ft of 3inch wyed to 200ft 2.5 inch, 650 ft 3in wyed to 200ft 1 3/4 in separate beds. Basically apartment lays. We drop it just past fire building and reverse lay to hydrant, trucks take front of building. 2nd due engine backs down block and also drops everything and reverse lays to its own hydrant. All engine chauffeurs need to do is hit front suction and break at a coupling of whichever line or lines are needed. We have many 2 or 3 story frames packed closely together. We get 2 water sources within minutes with big water available. Attack pumper/relay doesn’t work well for us.
When I first started in the field, LDH was a very short, 50' section, to connect to the plug. The bed was split with each side holding 500' of 2.5" if we had a short lay we could lay a double line and use double male/females to hook up on one side. Relay pumping was used on almost every working call. Now with 5" LDH it is rare, but this showed a good reason why we still need the ability to pump. Love those LDH discharges.
Id say instead of having the two firefighters in the supply engine getting on a 2nd line and going in, they stay outside not to break the 2 in 2 out rule. The only exception to this rule is conducting a rescue op. But that doesn't mean they just sit there ready, they can set up the back up line, start laddering the building, Horizontal ventilation if situation allows, conduct a 360 if the IC hasn't done so already or initiate command if you don't have Deputies or chiefs responding immediately. Also a pet peeve is vehicle positioning, but great points are made here, great job
Excellent presentation Matt!!
william Burke thanks, much appreciated.
Good explanation. We operate a bit differently. We run 4 man engine companies, and require each engine company to have their own hydrant. We seldom reverse lay, but it’s a great way to keep the front of a taxpayer open for a tower company or a truck.
thanks so much. just starting my dpo training. this helps clear things up for me
Thanks
Good video and, always remember, "put the cotton on the street !"
great vid makes it easy to understand
Thanks
We use to do a forward lay from hydrant without connecting to said hydrant. Connecting to hydrant was second engines job just incase of hydant being bad or dead.
Great Vid
Nice explanation.
+Josh Dale Thank you very much.
hey Matt, would your reasoning stay the same if your crews were showing up with only two people per apparatus? that's unfortunately the case where I work we run career pieces with two guys and will catch the hydrant first but then pass the connection to the medic unit. I agree totally with your reasoning and agree the reverse lay works great but in a urbanized area with more than two people on the appatus. like most things in firefighting I guess it just depends on all the variables.
Yea, a two man company changes things up. There are definitely still some advantages to reverse laying but in your situation it would be a little more difficult. I highly recommend the split lay though. It could be applied in several different situations running 2 man companies. Long narrow drive ways, steep hills, tight streets, etc. The passenger could jump out and throw a dry supply out in an accessible area for the next company to connect to.
Matt Hinkle, thanks Matt I agree with you completely as drivers we get focused a lot on getting our own water supply first, but very seldom do we realize what makes the most sense and how to get the water on the fire, fast, and with a full crew. I feel the split lay will be the go to lay for me for most of my first due especially with the staffing levels and how things often fall in place
Reverse lay is better, no 5 inch in the way of the trucks