@@tylergarza8695 ignorant of what? I have to be aware of what needs maintaining and see when something fails enough to try something new. Do you put this much thought into your car your mental health your body? Being aware that looking for the endless source of potential problems with things mechanical or biological is far from ignorant, accepting it and living your life instead is what I'm suggesting. Getting sucked into this mindset is ignorant.
This video answered all my questions about disc brakes. And i learned a lot more than i asked for. Cheers brother! Im shifting to disc brakes this month as sponsors are now supplying us disc brake bikes, and im already having nightmares on how to maintain them, let alone the cost
1.5 years ago, I got a disc brake road/endurance bike ... w/ Campy 160 rotors front & rear. After 6 months, I was occasionally stopping to "re-center" the pads while on rides. After 1.5 years, the rotors are slightly "warped". If I had had to replace them at 6 months as Peak Torque reported, I'd go crazy. More importantly, I believe good rim brakes are better for road bikes because of the KISS factor, reliability, and durability. I've had Campy Record rim brakes, so I can't comment on Shimano quality. I bought my first C-Record bike in 1962. I NEVER had any problems over the last 30 years/6k miles per year with good rim brakes. They stopped as well as my current discs, pads lasted longer than disc pads, and close to zero maintenance. Disc brakes = 1) re-centering, 2) quicker wear, 3) more parts, 4) more cost, 5) warping, 6) special tools, 7) hydraulics & bleeding. For ROAD, I consider discs a solution to a problem that never existed. Gravel is a different application though, and I'm not talking about MTBs.
Great project, I look forward to hearing more! I have had similar issues with ice tech rotors- go out of true with the high heat on road, get bumped on the mtb. For reference, I am now using the slx/105 RT70 rotors with zero issues. Seems to behave like a six bolt, just pinned onto the centerlock spider instead of using bolts.
Yeah i'm running the Ice-tech rotors atm, I did wonder how long they will last with only a thin sliver of steel each side... Do you run resin or sintered metal pads to get this level of wear?
I’ve been saying for a while now (as a non engineer) that I think the ice tech isn’t the best. That’s from using them for years and experiencing the ‘warping’, the ticking etc and I could only put it down to the aluminium sandwich construction. Thanks so much for doing the video. You’ll have an order from me 100%.
Great explanation again, making it understandable for everyone! My new bike frame arrives late August, will put winspace hyper wheels on them, so I will need new disc brakes also... Hoping to see yours available by then!
Very interesting topic and project. I was looking into Campagnolo rotors too and I'm looking forward to hear your impressions. Can't wait for the PT rotors ;)
Great vid, always been suspicious of the amount of material on these rotors to disapate the heat. We already know carbon rim brakes exceed 200C so having a much smaller disc makes the disappation of heat even harder. Interesting to see what you come up with. 👍
Can't say for the other guy but I live on the hilly bits of hong kong island, from what I can tell it's where peak torque is based too so yea I'll definitely be snatching up a few rotors from him the second they go up for sale
Good analysis. I use SLX RT-70 centerlock rotors on MTB (160 and 180mm). Reasonably priced and never had an issue. Cheers and keep up the excellent content.
Fascinated to see what you come up with versus what Shimano has in the pipeline with Dura-Ace 9200 brakes (and the context of Chris Froome's comments on disc brakes)
Considering their cranks have been failing for years due to poor design and they have not attempted to rectify the issue, they will probably not have any improvements in the pipeline.
Haha the expression at @2:37...Me every time I'm getting dropped on a climb and I blame it on the brakes rubbing. I'm totally interested in the project.
Happy to provide input from my experience on Campy rotors over the 2-3 yrs I have on my All Roadie, along with the full steel Magura Storm rotors I have on my HT. Haven't had any overheating issues on either including some very long descents (one fully loaded bike packing in the Angeles, California and Lake Mountain, Aus). I'm a nervous decender so brake often but let them off so I don't cook the brakes. I've cooked rim brakes in the past (koolstop salmons) but feel more confident with discs.
if your just going to laser cut solid piece - maybe inconel or hastelloy would be a good choice if you can get some offcuts? Really like your engineering knowledge - exceptional for such a young fella! Just remember to try your prototype on the rear wheel first before trying it on the front.
Very cool (no pun intended!) and informative video. I'm now doing a thorough check of my Dura Ace rotors! Interested to see the final design of your own rotors and might be interested in giving them a try!
Interesting project, looking forward to findings. I have brand new 105 disc set 6 bolt one piece style and at 900 miles I've been extremely pleased with performance and not one complaint, I clean them every other ride and the wheels have not been off the bike since new or in and out of the car so bumping them hasn't happened. I am also very aware of braking technique to shed heat, never ride the brakes, I do 3-5 seconds at the most breaking at any given time, on fast DH hard break let off wait hard brake let off style.
Very excited to follow that project 👍🏻 Went back to my “old” rim brake bike after being on discs for a while - not just because of being annoyed by the brakes, but it sure is nice to have one thing less that needs fine-tuning all the time
Exactly...part of why I ride is a ‘simple’ mechanical interface, peaceful rides (I prefer quite hubs), and a ‘back 2 basics’ experience...discs, 2 much electrical equipment etc detracts from that~
@@SprayIgniteBoom I had this realisation recently while considering DI2.. I already get annoyed with keeping the head unit charged and pairing sensors, why add another battery etc to the list!
That potential delamination issue is actually kind of terrifying. Will definitely be taking a look at my Ultegra rotors later today. Have absolutely experienced that same thing with the post-application rub following a short, sharp descent. They probably already have 7000+ km on them at this point.
£200 a year on discs? Wow, just wow. I'll stick to Campag Super Record and Record rim callipers (which are a bargain compared to the SR with just a 15g weight penalty). Though I suppose to be fair I should discount the cost of replacing the rims eventually! Really enjoy your content. Thanks for taking the time to make it.
Thanks Peak Torque very interesting. I was wondering if you think there is also a potential problem of your carbon spokes on your Hyper wheels heating up. Do you this could potentially melt the glue?
Great video! What do you think about using a ceramic fiber paper between the rotor and the spider? They have great thermal properties and would break the thermal bridge
I ride 800+ miles per month and my Shimano rotors still have tons of life left. However, they do tend to warp slightly but nothing I can't fix in a couple of minutes.
@@mihugong3153 I've used both the Dura-Ace SM-RT900 and the Ultegra SM-RT800 rotors. Both work great and I've had no wear issues using both of them for thousands of miles.
Interesting. 6 months life for rotors is crazy! My bike came with RT99 rotors which I replaced at approx 17500 miles, or about 3 set of pads. I replaced them with R8000, and your video prompted me to check them - the rear is at 1.5mm after approx 6700 miles, so the lifespan has been worse! The Campag ones look better value so I will probably go that route too. Nice watch by the way, I have one of those myself!
It would be interesting to see if there is a composite material that could be used as a thermal barrier at the hub interface or elsewhere in the spider, like phenolic spacers used on intake manifolds
Great shot of the steel laminate separating from the aluminum core. Mid-vid PT referenced 250 degree temps at the center-lock/hub interface. Does this temp reflect real world conditions?
Highly interesting topic. I was wondering how you finance this project and what you calculate for the overall project costs for a set of brake discs? I like the relatively short length of your videos compared to the high level of lessons identified / overall value. Keep up the good work and pedal hard!
Very cool project, making your own rotors, looking forward to the results. Very interesting topic with the materials and everything. However I haven't heard anything about the friction factor. I am not an engineer or something, but when thinking of a new material shouldn't we take into consideration its 'compatibility' with the standard brake pads in terms of friction and braking? I mean the first criteria of judging a brake part is the stopping power, right?
Very interesting video, particularly with respect to heat dissipation. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on rim vs disc brakes for a tandem where there's obviously going to be more heat generated when slowing/stopping.
What simulation software are you using? What are you defining your boundary conditions regarding temperature? I’d be interested to see how the heat conducts through steel rather than through dissimilar metals
The Giant TCR Advanced 2 with RIM brakes I have been thinking about buying (as my first new bike in 45 years) is looking better and better every day! What do you folks think?
I'd buy some, but i think most people would be upset when their disks had rust on them. I'd be willing to guess that a surprising percentage of even the most expensive road bikes only get used a few times a year. I also think this push to make disk brake bikes as light as rim brake bikes so they can stop making rim brake bikes forces them to make rotors that don't have the mass they need to work right.
Agreed, rust would be a no go for me and I'd also like to see more road bike (centerlock) discs w/ thicker friction ring (i.e. >=2.0mm) for more mechanical and thermal stability.
Hi, great video! I’ve always thought the rotors are mounted backwards. Note the material connecting the spline to brake surface is forward swept, under braking loads this would put it in compression, rolling the flexure. If it was reversed it would be in tension. Nimonic steel? C263/Inconel might be worth considering.
I've been using (older) XTR center lock all-steel (non-sandwiched) rotors on my bikes since 2003. Never had any issues at all to date. And they have lasted me literally 10's of 1000's of miles.
Dude get some new rotors. If your rotors get to thin you might go for your brakes on a fast downhill and the whole rotor jams into your calliper and throws you over the bars.
Interesting vid, I'm just curious which kind of brake pads you used (not sure if I overheared that in the video), since I thought they do make the biggest impact on brake rotor wear?
would the fact that they are made from aluminum and steel laminated together cause warping and delamination when ht like an old fashion bi metal heat gauge ?
I think the early Lotus Elises had the option for aluminium /silicon carbide rotors. They also had special pads that transferred material to the disks to reduce wear. (This might have been too reduce unsprung weight rather than for stopping power)
Hi! Do MTB calipers have a bit more clearance than road calipers? My road bike has GRX levers paired with Deore M6000 calipers because the frame has IS mounts, and I rarely have disc rubs after long descents. The SLX rotors though are a bit flexy, I have to tru them sometimes and it does not take a lot of force to bend them.
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What do you think about something like the Shimano RT54 rotors? They're the cheap ones for MTB, would they transfer too much heat to the hubs?
They look OK, they are basically the centerlock adapter built in style (eg buy a centerlock adapter and a normal 6 bolt rotor and the end result would be the same). Thermal is a complete non-issue for casual riders. Not even sure if there is proof out there its an issue for pros. Steel is a poor thermal conductor and you have a tiny cross section transferring heat to the hub, so huge thermal gradient. www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/2/6/215/pdf
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@@jaro6985 That's interesting, thank you! I could imagine that if i heavy rider were constantly braking on a very long very steep slope, mathematically there could be enough heat transfered to the hubs to ruin the grease. Maybe the brake pads would fail first. But hey, i can try it the next time i'm riding down a trail, if i can still touch the center part of the rotors when i stop :D
@ I don't think it is possible to transfer this much heat into the hub for the reason being mentioned by Ja Ro. Also at some point you will need to stop and let your brakes cool down because of fading...
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@@jaro6985 noo, i figured it would be a lot more fun to go from the outside. I have 10 fingers to test with :D
Hello there, so after watching your vid, I bought into the same Ekar db-160/140 rotors and noticed quite good amount of play back & forth while squeezing the brakes (lock rings were torqued down to 40nm). After some checking, it turned out the centerlock spline tolerances of the Ekar rotors aren't as close as my Shimano Dura-ace ones. With the lock ring loosened I could tell the difference in the amount of play twisting the rotor back and forth. If I remount the DA rotors the play goes away. I was wondering if you have this issue on your setup as well? Is it of any concern? Cheers
Thanks for this, good info and video. What Campy rotors did you fit? I'm looking at 160mm center lock rotors to replace mine. I would also be interested in your own rotors too.
Impressive amount of comments here on disc brake performance or lack there of! I've not personally experienced any delam issues with any of my disc brake bikes other than annoying rubbing after long descents. I would be interested in trying your new steel rotors. I saw a few comments about the XTR on the road as well, from reading the Shimano technical manual they do not recommend using MTB rotors on road bikes.
Question, Do you use metal or organic brakepads? As metal are much harder for disc rotor and organic are much nicer to them. All weather depending ofcourse. Also Shimano is also the only one to have 4 mounting point. Sram and Campag have multiple mounting point. Less area to warp as they are held closer together?
I’ve been running disc brakes on mountain bikes for twenty years. I have used icetech rotors and solid steel rotors. I can’t say I can tell the difference in braking but I do find the all steel variety seem to bend more easily than floating types. They all wear at a similar rate though. I think when a rotor gets to be 1.5 thick from wear, combined with wear of the pads and the relatively low fluid volume leads to a lever getting closer to the bar than I like. I’ve had that issue with many brakes too. Question though. Compared with rim brakes how does the wear of disc rotors and pads compare with worn rims and rim pads? When I was racing off road with rim brakes I was replacing pads a dozen times a year, cable and housing was replaced monthly and I’d chew through about four rims a season. Ceramic rims really helped with wear but disc brakes were even better. I raced road too but rim wear was a lot slower.
Thanks for your nice explanation, now I know why my 105 rotors rub/make an annoying noice when I ride in the rain or during descends. A couple of bike shops told me that they advice everyone to go with the “SwissStop Catalyst” rotors. Yes they are heavier but they don’t have the warping issue & last way longer
I use catalyst rotors on my gravel bike... They last long, nearly 10000km in them and still some life left... However on long descends they undergo the same issue when heat starts to build up and they rub...then come back to place when cool down...
In my experience (25+ years bicycle mechanic) the pad clearance issue in at least 50% of problematic cases comes from "overfilled" disc brakes. Most common directly from the bike factories. Great explanations that need more spreading to customers (which I will do at work). Keep on the good work! Greets to the 5 year old 😎
I'm curious about your take on this topic in MTB brakes. Larger rotors lead to different thermal paths I'd think, and some thicker models (2.3mm at the max) for systems like TRP and Magura. I assume lots of hubs are still getting cooked despite.
Wish I had seen this video a couple of days ago before I purchased a pair of the same Shimano rotors...which is probably why this video appeared in my feed.
I love this video. I have a pair of icetech rotors and I have exactly the same problem. During a ride they can start and stop rubbing on the calipers multiple times. I have also suspected that the cause of the issue has its core with the sandwich construction.
Wow! I'm an MTB'er (and i have the very same XTR rotors, but in 160 / 180mm config), but never seen a disc that worn as yours. you really have to descend thousands of miles to bring your rotors to that condition... wondering how many brake pads you worn out until you reached that thickness of that rotor?
Brighter colour reflects more light than it absorbs, effectively functioning as a solar sail. If Pogacar had frosted tips he'd be breaking the 1000W FTP barrier
Hi PT May I ask if you are using complete DA including the pads? I somehow curious if Shimano really design their system without defining which one is the replaceable consumables ( disc or pads, cannot be both) and normally should be the cheaper ones? Ta
I currently have Ultegra rotors. I suppose they have less issues because the cooling surface is a lot bigger? They're almost solid with just a few holes. Can't say much about the wear as I haven't been riding that much because in the last year... because of reasons. Previously I had basic six bolt steel rotors and they lasted a few years. Curious to see what design you come up with.
Would your design work with SRAM Centerline? These would be so so helpful for bike packing where weight isnt *as much* of a priority, but stopping power with a pack is key.
thanks for the info,still on rim brakes myself for road. I shall watch with interest. running Deore discs on my 29er mtb,seem to be ok with 2 or 3 rides a week.
How do you get so much rotor wear? I measured the formula rotors on my mtb new after about 8000km and they only lost about 45 microns. They went from 1,975mm to 1,930. I also doubt that conducting heat into the hub is an issue. You can get your disc to a point where it has discolouration due to heat but at the bolts its still safe to touch.
I had an Ashima 160mm rotor split on a descent on my MTB. On measuring it the braking surface had lost half its thickness... Needless to say I then measured the other ones I had.
Any update on how you like the Campy rotors? I need new rotors and am thinking to try the campy as well, if you still recommend them. And how are the ones you are designing are going?
Often overlooked is vent patterns. On SRAM rotors, the differing “organic” shapes of each vent minimizes constructive sound interference from the fluting effect (hot air escaping from each vent as the pads glide over.)
My son recently had an Ultegra rotor fail after about 6 months use. The failure in his case was caused by the aluminium "cooling fins" becoming distorted meaning they rubbed on either side of the caliper. The stainless part was less affected. A complaint to the retsiler said was responded to with "no warranty claim as you were "dragging your brakes"". My son has excrllent descrnding skills snd mskes much less use of his brakes than i do (i am a BC qualified coach so i know how to observe these things...until he gets out of site!). I will be definitely switching back to full steel rotors after watching this. Thank you.
Would love to see a disc brake design that makes it about performance and QoL and not about weight weenies. I've been looking around to try and find a solution for my prospective new disc brake bike since I've heard of so many issues with the current rotor offerings from the big three and this seems like the solution that I'm really looking for.
I'd be interested in a pair. I am interested in their application to touring bikes that coming down long descents fully packed out should get quite hot. I suggest you try and make a kickstarter for it since it seems very many people would like a pair.
I would like to know what you think about the fuids on the brakes too. Why Shimano uses mineral oil and Sram go with Dot fluid. This makes difference in the thermal side of things too? Can I use a Shimano rotor (designed to work with mineral fluid driven piston) with a Sram caliper and vice versa? This disc brake for road bikes is a hot topic now and you are the best to address the subject
You have brought tremendous value to cyclists with your experience and channel
This ^, I have learned so much and am really grateful for this channel making me a more aware consumer and home mechanic
What? Just ride your bike and replace the parts that wear or break.
@@aaron___6014 ... ignorant
@@tylergarza8695 ignorant of what? I have to be aware of what needs maintaining and see when something fails enough to try something new. Do you put this much thought into your car your mental health your body? Being aware that looking for the endless source of potential problems with things mechanical or biological is far from ignorant, accepting it and living your life instead is what I'm suggesting. Getting sucked into this mindset is ignorant.
100% up for supporting your discs. That goes for any other products you have in mind going forward. I value your straight talking info massively 👌
I'm super excited to see how much better you can make rotors compared to what's available now. I will definitely buy a set when its available.
It will cost 150 pounds and last about 3 months and the constant of re adjusting the rotors and calipers so it doesn’t rub 😂 made in ali china 🤣
Looking forward to the peak torque disc brakes 👍
Peak Stop brakes
@@basedgodstrugglin still a torque aint it
This video answered all my questions about disc brakes. And i learned a lot more than i asked for. Cheers brother! Im shifting to disc brakes this month as sponsors are now supplying us disc brake bikes, and im already having nightmares on how to maintain them, let alone the cost
1.5 years ago, I got a disc brake road/endurance bike ... w/ Campy 160 rotors front & rear. After 6 months, I was occasionally stopping to "re-center" the pads while on rides. After 1.5 years, the rotors are slightly "warped". If I had had to replace them at 6 months as Peak Torque reported, I'd go crazy. More importantly, I believe good rim brakes are better for road bikes because of the KISS factor, reliability, and durability. I've had Campy Record rim brakes, so I can't comment on Shimano quality. I bought my first C-Record bike in 1962. I NEVER had any problems over the last 30 years/6k miles per year with good rim brakes. They stopped as well as my current discs, pads lasted longer than disc pads, and close to zero maintenance. Disc brakes = 1) re-centering, 2) quicker wear, 3) more parts, 4) more cost, 5) warping, 6) special tools, 7) hydraulics & bleeding. For ROAD, I consider discs a solution to a problem that never existed. Gravel is a different application though, and I'm not talking about MTBs.
Sanaol may sponsor
@@jerryc.5210The Shimano XT 8100 disc sets on my Trek custom mtb have been stellar with correct maintenance and cleanliness which I follow .
@@jerryc.5210 The new ice tech Shimano's are crack prone and not linished very well . They are Chinese "questionable" quality .
@@jerryc.5210I use Galfer 1.8mm thick discs in 180mm diameter or Deckas ones in floating bushing style with coloured 7075 carriers .
I’m down to see a set. Plus loved the tech knowledge offered in the video. Keep in coming.
I just found your channel and I have to say, you are quite good at this. This video was great, and very informative! Thank you.
Great project, I look forward to hearing more! I have had similar issues with ice tech rotors- go out of true with the high heat on road, get bumped on the mtb. For reference, I am now using the slx/105 RT70 rotors with zero issues. Seems to behave like a six bolt, just pinned onto the centerlock spider instead of using bolts.
Yeah i'm running the Ice-tech rotors atm, I did wonder how long they will last with only a thin sliver of steel each side... Do you run resin or sintered metal pads to get this level of wear?
This seems very interesting, looking forward to seeing the progress!
Thank you! For years I have held the opinion that the rotor offerings were inadequate. Great video!!
I’ve been saying for a while now (as a non engineer) that I think the ice tech isn’t the best. That’s from using them for years and experiencing the ‘warping’, the ticking etc and I could only put it down to the aluminium sandwich construction. Thanks so much for doing the video. You’ll have an order from me 100%.
I’d be interested in a set - great work, loving the channel 👊
It would be awesome to also try Swissstop after the Campy and do a comparison
I'd be happy to chip in via patreon paypal or some such so @peak torque can test them
@@lechprotean great idea.
@PeakTorque I jyst saw this vid 3 yrs late, what happened to the rotors?
Great explanation again, making it understandable for everyone! My new bike frame arrives late August, will put winspace hyper wheels on them, so I will need new disc brakes also... Hoping to see yours available by then!
Very interesting topic and project. I was looking into Campagnolo rotors too and I'm looking forward to hear your impressions.
Can't wait for the PT rotors ;)
Great vid, always been suspicious of the amount of material on these rotors to disapate the heat. We already know carbon rim brakes exceed 200C so having a much smaller disc makes the disappation of heat even harder. Interesting to see what you come up with. 👍
Don't even have disc brakes but instantly got reeled in this very informative piece.
Yeah mate I’ll be down to have a pair, good stuff👍
I would buy your rotors right away when they come up for sale
Just because some guy on youtube burns his rotors up in the super steep mountains of asia doesn't mean yours will fail too.
Can't say for the other guy but I live on the hilly bits of hong kong island, from what I can tell it's where peak torque is based too so yea I'll definitely be snatching up a few rotors from him the second they go up for sale
Good analysis. I use SLX RT-70 centerlock rotors on MTB (160 and 180mm). Reasonably priced and never had an issue. Cheers and keep up the excellent content.
Roadies a dragging tiny rotors with tiny little callipers down mountain descent nonstop for miles.
Interested to see what product you come up with - could be interested! 👍🏼
I'd be super interested in this project. Can't offer any expertise, but would definitely buy one
Fascinated to see what you come up with versus what Shimano has in the pipeline with Dura-Ace 9200 brakes (and the context of Chris Froome's comments on disc brakes)
Considering their cranks have been failing for years due to poor design and they have not attempted to rectify the issue, they will probably not have any improvements in the pipeline.
Awesome project! I’m almost sad I don’t have any disc brake bikes now^^
Haha the expression at @2:37...Me every time I'm getting dropped on a climb and I blame it on the brakes rubbing. I'm totally interested in the project.
Happy to provide input from my experience on Campy rotors over the 2-3 yrs I have on my All Roadie, along with the full steel Magura Storm rotors I have on my HT. Haven't had any overheating issues on either including some very long descents (one fully loaded bike packing in the Angeles, California and Lake Mountain, Aus). I'm a nervous decender so brake often but let them off so I don't cook the brakes. I've cooked rim brakes in the past (koolstop salmons) but feel more confident with discs.
Carbon ceramic brakes! If you survive the first hairpin, you'll get great braking on the second! 😂😂😂
No you just warm up snaking back and forth with your brakes pulled
if your just going to laser cut solid piece - maybe inconel or hastelloy would be a good choice if you can get some offcuts?
Really like your engineering knowledge - exceptional for such a young fella! Just remember to try your prototype on the rear wheel first before trying it on the front.
Very cool (no pun intended!) and informative video. I'm now doing a thorough check of my Dura Ace rotors! Interested to see the final design of your own rotors and might be interested in giving them a try!
Interesting project, looking forward to findings. I have brand new 105 disc set 6 bolt one piece style and at 900 miles I've been extremely pleased with performance and not one complaint, I clean them every other ride and the wheels have not been off the bike since new or in and out of the car so bumping them hasn't happened. I am also very aware of braking technique to shed heat, never ride the brakes, I do 3-5 seconds at the most breaking at any given time, on fast DH hard break let off wait hard brake let off style.
Very excited to follow that project 👍🏻 Went back to my “old” rim brake bike after being on discs for a while - not just because of being annoyed by the brakes, but it sure is nice to have one thing less that needs fine-tuning all the time
Same.
Exactly...part of why I ride is a ‘simple’ mechanical interface, peaceful rides (I prefer quite hubs), and a ‘back 2 basics’ experience...discs, 2 much electrical equipment etc detracts from that~
@@SprayIgniteBoom I had this realisation recently while considering DI2.. I already get annoyed with keeping the head unit charged and pairing sensors, why add another battery etc to the list!
"You just didn't set the discs up properly"
@@durianriders 😂
That potential delamination issue is actually kind of terrifying. Will definitely be taking a look at my Ultegra rotors later today. Have absolutely experienced that same thing with the post-application rub following a short, sharp descent. They probably already have 7000+ km on them at this point.
Interesting sounding project with your own design rotors. Would certainly be interested to try a set out!
+1
I would defo try out your rotors. Keep us updated.
£200 a year on discs? Wow, just wow. I'll stick to Campag Super Record and Record rim callipers (which are a bargain compared to the SR with just a 15g weight penalty). Though I suppose to be fair I should discount the cost of replacing the rims eventually!
Really enjoy your content. Thanks for taking the time to make it.
Thanks Peak Torque very interesting. I was wondering if you think there is also a potential problem of your carbon spokes on your Hyper wheels heating up. Do you this could potentially melt the glue?
I'll be keeping an eye out for updates on your rotors. Your design priorities match my riding/functionality priorities.
Great video! What do you think about using a ceramic fiber paper between the rotor and the spider? They have great thermal properties and would break the thermal bridge
I ride 800+ miles per month and my Shimano rotors still have tons of life left. However, they do tend to warp slightly but nothing I can't fix in a couple of minutes.
Yeah thisbguy is full of BS on his videos.
Now must be trying to start a business on a market full of the stuff for any given part.
I unsubscribed.
Hey Todd, which model of rotors are you using?
@@mihugong3153 I've used both the Dura-Ace SM-RT900 and the Ultegra SM-RT800 rotors. Both work great and I've had no wear issues using both of them for thousands of miles.
@@tccycling Cool, thanks for the info. I have XTRs on the way for my road bike, I guess I will try my luck :)
I ride and commute in only hills, I got 10 months out of my pads and rotors, that said I should have done them after prob 8 or 9
Interesting. 6 months life for rotors is crazy! My bike came with RT99 rotors which I replaced at approx 17500 miles, or about 3 set of pads. I replaced them with R8000, and your video prompted me to check them - the rear is at 1.5mm after approx 6700 miles, so the lifespan has been worse! The Campag ones look better value so I will probably go that route too. Nice watch by the way, I have one of those myself!
It would be interesting to see if there is a composite material that could be used as a thermal barrier at the hub interface or elsewhere in the spider, like phenolic spacers used on intake manifolds
Great shot of the steel laminate separating from the aluminum core. Mid-vid PT referenced 250 degree temps at the center-lock/hub interface. Does this temp reflect real world conditions?
Not sure yet. I've got a thermal camera for the next video.
Great engineer mindset! When its not in the market, create it!
Highly interesting topic. I was wondering how you finance this project and what you calculate for the overall project costs for a set of brake discs? I like the relatively short length of your videos compared to the high level of lessons identified / overall value. Keep up the good work and pedal hard!
Very cool project, making your own rotors, looking forward to the results. Very interesting topic with the materials and everything. However I haven't heard anything about the friction factor. I am not an engineer or something, but when thinking of a new material shouldn't we take into consideration its 'compatibility' with the standard brake pads in terms of friction and braking? I mean the first criteria of judging a brake part is the stopping power, right?
Very interesting video, particularly with respect to heat dissipation. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on rim vs disc brakes for a tandem where there's obviously going to be more heat generated when slowing/stopping.
Drum brakes?
Can't wait to see those discs of yours op.
Thanks for this video mate, just in the nick of time as I was going to upgrade to some dura ace icetechs
Great stuff, as usual
You got any recommendations on how to fix that squealing sound you've shown in your descending-clip?
What simulation software are you using? What are you defining your boundary conditions regarding temperature?
I’d be interested to see how the heat conducts through steel rather than through dissimilar metals
The Giant TCR Advanced 2 with RIM brakes I have been thinking about buying (as my first new bike in 45 years) is looking better and better every day! What do you folks think?
Stick with Rim brakes, on my TCR advanced SL rim brake model requires little attention and brakes excellent. In fact better than my Defy with discs
@@1rickqwert Thanks for the feedback!
I'd buy some, but i think most people would be upset when their disks had rust on them. I'd be willing to guess that a surprising percentage of even the most expensive road bikes only get used a few times a year. I also think this push to make disk brake bikes as light as rim brake bikes so they can stop making rim brake bikes forces them to make rotors that don't have the mass they need to work right.
Agreed, rust would be a no go for me and I'd also like to see more road bike (centerlock) discs w/ thicker friction ring (i.e. >=2.0mm) for more mechanical and thermal stability.
Had to subscribe for Peak Torque disc brake. Count me in!
Hi, great video!
I’ve always thought the rotors are mounted backwards. Note the material connecting the spline to brake surface is forward swept, under braking loads this would put it in compression, rolling the flexure. If it was reversed it would be in tension.
Nimonic steel? C263/Inconel might be worth considering.
What is your thoughts on a 6 bolt all stainless steel rotor on an alloy centerlock rotor carrier?
I've been using (older) XTR center lock all-steel (non-sandwiched) rotors on my bikes since 2003. Never had any issues at all to date. And they have lasted me literally 10's of 1000's of miles.
Dude get some new rotors. If your rotors get to thin you might go for your brakes on a fast downhill and the whole rotor jams into your calliper and throws you over the bars.
@@TheNotoriousMIC my current bike has around 40K miles on it and the XTR rotor thickness is fine. No significant or even noticeable wear.
@@theadventurebiker well if you’ve measured them and they’re still thick enough then we’ll done.
A pleasant surprise you have anything Campagnolo on your bike. Before you know, you'll turn 40 and have a full super record gruppo installed :-)
Interesting vid, I'm just curious which kind of brake pads you used (not sure if I overheared that in the video), since I thought they do make the biggest impact on brake rotor wear?
Sorry yes. Organic, not sintered.
would the fact that they are made from aluminum and steel laminated together cause warping and delamination when ht like an old fashion bi metal heat gauge ?
I think the early Lotus Elises had the option for aluminium /silicon carbide rotors. They also had special pads that transferred material to the disks to reduce wear. (This might have been too reduce unsprung weight rather than for stopping power)
Hi! Do MTB calipers have a bit more clearance than road calipers? My road bike has GRX levers paired with Deore M6000 calipers because the frame has IS mounts, and I rarely have disc rubs after long descents. The SLX rotors though are a bit flexy, I have to tru them sometimes and it does not take a lot of force to bend them.
What do you think about something like the Shimano RT54 rotors? They're the cheap ones for MTB, would they transfer too much heat to the hubs?
They look OK, they are basically the centerlock adapter built in style (eg buy a centerlock adapter and a normal 6 bolt rotor and the end result would be the same). Thermal is a complete non-issue for casual riders. Not even sure if there is proof out there its an issue for pros. Steel is a poor thermal conductor and you have a tiny cross section transferring heat to the hub, so huge thermal gradient. www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/2/6/215/pdf
@@jaro6985 That's interesting, thank you!
I could imagine that if i heavy rider were constantly braking on a very long very steep slope, mathematically there could be enough heat transfered to the hubs to ruin the grease. Maybe the brake pads would fail first.
But hey, i can try it the next time i'm riding down a trail, if i can still touch the center part of the rotors when i stop :D
@ Good idea, start from the center and work your way out, not the other way around :p
@ I don't think it is possible to transfer this much heat into the hub for the reason being mentioned by Ja Ro. Also at some point you will need to stop and let your brakes cool down because of fading...
@@jaro6985 noo, i figured it would be a lot more fun to go from the outside. I have 10 fingers to test with :D
Hello there, so after watching your vid, I bought into the same Ekar db-160/140 rotors and noticed quite good amount of play back & forth while squeezing the brakes (lock rings were torqued down to 40nm). After some checking, it turned out the centerlock spline tolerances of the Ekar rotors aren't as close as my Shimano Dura-ace ones. With the lock ring loosened I could tell the difference in the amount of play twisting the rotor back and forth. If I remount the DA rotors the play goes away. I was wondering if you have this issue on your setup as well? Is it of any concern? Cheers
Interested, I've a xcr build coming up and the bike is going to Bespoke show in October so that will be really cool.
Thanks for this, good info and video. What Campy rotors did you fit? I'm looking at 160mm center lock rotors to replace mine. I would also be interested in your own rotors too.
I like your scientific approach 🤙 Thanks mate 🙏
You're spot on. I've moved back to rim, fed up with them. Would love some PT disc though!
Impressive amount of comments here on disc brake performance or lack there of! I've not personally experienced any delam issues with any of my disc brake bikes other than annoying rubbing after long descents. I would be interested in trying your new steel rotors. I saw a few comments about the XTR on the road as well, from reading the Shimano technical manual they do not recommend using MTB rotors on road bikes.
Which kind of break pads do you prefer? Organic or Steel?
Great idea, hopefully the tarnished inside/outside edges can still dispel the heat.
Question,
Do you use metal or organic brakepads?
As metal are much harder for disc rotor and organic are much nicer to them. All weather depending ofcourse.
Also Shimano is also the only one to have 4 mounting point. Sram and Campag have multiple mounting point. Less area to warp as they are held closer together?
I’ve been running disc brakes on mountain bikes for twenty years. I have used icetech rotors and solid steel rotors. I can’t say I can tell the difference in braking but I do find the all steel variety seem to bend more easily than floating types. They all wear at a similar rate though. I think when a rotor gets to be 1.5 thick from wear, combined with wear of the pads and the relatively low fluid volume leads to a lever getting closer to the bar than I like. I’ve had that issue with many brakes too.
Question though. Compared with rim brakes how does the wear of disc rotors and pads compare with worn rims and rim pads? When I was racing off road with rim brakes I was replacing pads a dozen times a year, cable and housing was replaced monthly and I’d chew through about four rims a season. Ceramic rims really helped with wear but disc brakes were even better. I raced road too but rim wear was a lot slower.
Thanks for your nice explanation, now I know why my 105 rotors rub/make an annoying noice when I ride in the rain or during descends.
A couple of bike shops told me that they advice everyone to go with the “SwissStop Catalyst” rotors. Yes they are heavier but they don’t have the warping issue & last way longer
I use catalyst rotors on my gravel bike... They last long, nearly 10000km in them and still some life left... However on long descends they undergo the same issue when heat starts to build up and they rub...then come back to place when cool down...
In my experience (25+ years bicycle mechanic) the pad clearance issue in at least 50% of problematic cases comes from "overfilled" disc brakes. Most common directly from the bike factories.
Great explanations that need more spreading to customers (which I will do at work).
Keep on the good work!
Greets to the 5 year old 😎
Hi. What do you mean with "overfilled" brakes? I think that psitons often don't fully retract because of overbleeding of the system
I'm curious about your take on this topic in MTB brakes. Larger rotors lead to different thermal paths I'd think, and some thicker models (2.3mm at the max) for systems like TRP and Magura. I assume lots of hubs are still getting cooked despite.
Will the rust contaminate the brake pads? Will the stiff rotor be too brittle to lightly bend back into shape if lightly warped?
Wish I had seen this video a couple of days ago before I purchased a pair of the same Shimano rotors...which is probably why this video appeared in my feed.
What about the hope floating rotor design, inst that another approach that would suit?
What sort of mileage are you getting from a set over the six months?
I love this video. I have a pair of icetech rotors and I have exactly the same problem. During a ride they can start and stop rubbing on the calipers multiple times. I have also suspected that the cause of the issue has its core with the sandwich construction.
Great video👍. My ultegra ice tech rotor rubbing in ascent and sprinting. When i swap for campagnolo it will sort out too?
Wow! I'm an MTB'er (and i have the very same XTR rotors, but in 160 / 180mm config), but never seen a disc that worn as yours. you really have to descend thousands of miles to bring your rotors to that condition... wondering how many brake pads you worn out until you reached that thickness of that rotor?
What are the advantages of bleaching your hair? Marginal gains? I would like an engineering analysis on this subject, that would be really cool
Brighter colour reflects more light than it absorbs, effectively functioning as a solar sail. If Pogacar had frosted tips he'd be breaking the 1000W FTP barrier
Modelling career
Hi PT
May I ask if you are using complete DA including the pads? I somehow curious if Shimano really design their system without defining which one is the replaceable consumables ( disc or pads, cannot be both) and normally should be the cheaper ones?
Ta
I currently have Ultegra rotors. I suppose they have less issues because the cooling surface is a lot bigger? They're almost solid with just a few holes. Can't say much about the wear as I haven't been riding that much because in the last year... because of reasons. Previously I had basic six bolt steel rotors and they lasted a few years.
Curious to see what design you come up with.
Would your design work with SRAM Centerline? These would be so so helpful for bike packing where weight isnt *as much* of a priority, but stopping power with a pack is key.
thanks for the info,still on rim brakes myself for road. I shall watch with interest. running Deore discs on my 29er mtb,seem to be ok with 2 or 3 rides a week.
What do you think of the Hope RX CL design, using much bigger hollow pins ?
How do you get so much rotor wear? I measured the formula rotors on my mtb new after about 8000km and they only lost about 45 microns. They went from 1,975mm to 1,930.
I also doubt that conducting heat into the hub is an issue. You can get your disc to a point where it has discolouration due to heat but at the bolts its still safe to touch.
I had an Ashima 160mm rotor split on a descent on my MTB. On measuring it the braking surface had lost half its thickness... Needless to say I then measured the other ones I had.
Forgot to mention: only organic pads used.
Do you have any opinion on organic vs sintered pads?
stock shimano?
No fins???
Any update on how you like the Campy rotors? I need new rotors and am thinking to try the campy as well, if you still recommend them. And how are the ones you are designing are going?
Definitely interested in your rotors mate
is it possible to put campy rotor on the sram red axs system?
Often overlooked is vent patterns. On SRAM rotors, the differing “organic” shapes of each vent minimizes constructive sound interference from the fluting effect (hot air escaping from each vent as the pads glide over.)
My son recently had an Ultegra rotor fail after about 6 months use. The failure in his case was caused by the aluminium "cooling fins" becoming distorted meaning they rubbed on either side of the caliper.
The stainless part was less affected. A complaint to the retsiler said was responded to with "no warranty claim as you were "dragging your brakes"". My son has excrllent descrnding skills snd mskes much less use of his brakes than i do (i am a BC qualified coach so i know how to observe these things...until he gets out of site!). I will be definitely switching back to full steel rotors after watching this. Thank you.
Would love to see a disc brake design that makes it about performance and QoL and not about weight weenies. I've been looking around to try and find a solution for my prospective new disc brake bike since I've heard of so many issues with the current rotor offerings from the big three and this seems like the solution that I'm really looking for.
Check out Hope.
I'd be interested in a pair. I am interested in their application to touring bikes that coming down long descents fully packed out should get quite hot. I suggest you try and make a kickstarter for it since it seems very many people would like a pair.
Great video, definitely interested in a pair
I would like to know what you think about the fuids on the brakes too. Why Shimano uses mineral oil and Sram go with Dot fluid. This makes difference in the thermal side of things too? Can I use a Shimano rotor (designed to work with mineral fluid driven piston) with a Sram caliper and vice versa? This disc brake for road bikes is a hot topic now and you are the best to address the subject
What disqualifies titanium as a brake surface other than being spendy?