@@tylergarza8695 ignorant of what? I have to be aware of what needs maintaining and see when something fails enough to try something new. Do you put this much thought into your car your mental health your body? Being aware that looking for the endless source of potential problems with things mechanical or biological is far from ignorant, accepting it and living your life instead is what I'm suggesting. Getting sucked into this mindset is ignorant.
Very excited to follow that project 👍🏻 Went back to my “old” rim brake bike after being on discs for a while - not just because of being annoyed by the brakes, but it sure is nice to have one thing less that needs fine-tuning all the time
Exactly...part of why I ride is a ‘simple’ mechanical interface, peaceful rides (I prefer quite hubs), and a ‘back 2 basics’ experience...discs, 2 much electrical equipment etc detracts from that~
@@SprayIgniteBoom I had this realisation recently while considering DI2.. I already get annoyed with keeping the head unit charged and pairing sensors, why add another battery etc to the list!
Can't say for the other guy but I live on the hilly bits of hong kong island, from what I can tell it's where peak torque is based too so yea I'll definitely be snatching up a few rotors from him the second they go up for sale
This video answered all my questions about disc brakes. And i learned a lot more than i asked for. Cheers brother! Im shifting to disc brakes this month as sponsors are now supplying us disc brake bikes, and im already having nightmares on how to maintain them, let alone the cost
1.5 years ago, I got a disc brake road/endurance bike ... w/ Campy 160 rotors front & rear. After 6 months, I was occasionally stopping to "re-center" the pads while on rides. After 1.5 years, the rotors are slightly "warped". If I had had to replace them at 6 months as Peak Torque reported, I'd go crazy. More importantly, I believe good rim brakes are better for road bikes because of the KISS factor, reliability, and durability. I've had Campy Record rim brakes, so I can't comment on Shimano quality. I bought my first C-Record bike in 1962. I NEVER had any problems over the last 30 years/6k miles per year with good rim brakes. They stopped as well as my current discs, pads lasted longer than disc pads, and close to zero maintenance. Disc brakes = 1) re-centering, 2) quicker wear, 3) more parts, 4) more cost, 5) warping, 6) special tools, 7) hydraulics & bleeding. For ROAD, I consider discs a solution to a problem that never existed. Gravel is a different application though, and I'm not talking about MTBs.
Fascinated to see what you come up with versus what Shimano has in the pipeline with Dura-Ace 9200 brakes (and the context of Chris Froome's comments on disc brakes)
Considering their cranks have been failing for years due to poor design and they have not attempted to rectify the issue, they will probably not have any improvements in the pipeline.
Any update on how you like the Campy rotors? I need new rotors and am thinking to try the campy as well, if you still recommend them. And how are the ones you are designing are going?
I ride 800+ miles per month and my Shimano rotors still have tons of life left. However, they do tend to warp slightly but nothing I can't fix in a couple of minutes.
@@mihugong3153 I've used both the Dura-Ace SM-RT900 and the Ultegra SM-RT800 rotors. Both work great and I've had no wear issues using both of them for thousands of miles.
an efficient rotor would be, perhaps the size of the actual wheel rim, with an efficient and simple calliper type system applying the pads to the surface. You could even use the actual wheel rim. Maybe one day, manufacturers will decide we need that
Yeah i'm running the Ice-tech rotors atm, I did wonder how long they will last with only a thin sliver of steel each side... Do you run resin or sintered metal pads to get this level of wear?
I’ve been saying for a while now (as a non engineer) that I think the ice tech isn’t the best. That’s from using them for years and experiencing the ‘warping’, the ticking etc and I could only put it down to the aluminium sandwich construction. Thanks so much for doing the video. You’ll have an order from me 100%.
Interesting. 6 months life for rotors is crazy! My bike came with RT99 rotors which I replaced at approx 17500 miles, or about 3 set of pads. I replaced them with R8000, and your video prompted me to check them - the rear is at 1.5mm after approx 6700 miles, so the lifespan has been worse! The Campag ones look better value so I will probably go that route too. Nice watch by the way, I have one of those myself!
I'd buy some, but i think most people would be upset when their disks had rust on them. I'd be willing to guess that a surprising percentage of even the most expensive road bikes only get used a few times a year. I also think this push to make disk brake bikes as light as rim brake bikes so they can stop making rim brake bikes forces them to make rotors that don't have the mass they need to work right.
Agreed, rust would be a no go for me and I'd also like to see more road bike (centerlock) discs w/ thicker friction ring (i.e. >=2.0mm) for more mechanical and thermal stability.
Haha the expression at @2:37...Me every time I'm getting dropped on a climb and I blame it on the brakes rubbing. I'm totally interested in the project.
Good analysis. I use SLX RT-70 centerlock rotors on MTB (160 and 180mm). Reasonably priced and never had an issue. Cheers and keep up the excellent content.
@Peak Torque do you think centrelock is the way to go for MTB hubs and rotors, or is 6 bolt still a good and reliable standard? Also, do the centrelock adaptors that allow the use of six bolt rotors increase the risk of misalignment or instability? are some brand adaptors better than others? Cheers
Deckas and the RT 54'S or Galfer are the way to go . He never made rotors at all "take peak torque with a grain of salt when it comes to him making promises he can't keep" .
Brighter colour reflects more light than it absorbs, effectively functioning as a solar sail. If Pogacar had frosted tips he'd be breaking the 1000W FTP barrier
My son recently had an Ultegra rotor fail after about 6 months use. The failure in his case was caused by the aluminium "cooling fins" becoming distorted meaning they rubbed on either side of the caliper. The stainless part was less affected. A complaint to the retsiler said was responded to with "no warranty claim as you were "dragging your brakes"". My son has excrllent descrnding skills snd mskes much less use of his brakes than i do (i am a BC qualified coach so i know how to observe these things...until he gets out of site!). I will be definitely switching back to full steel rotors after watching this. Thank you.
if your just going to laser cut solid piece - maybe inconel or hastelloy would be a good choice if you can get some offcuts? Really like your engineering knowledge - exceptional for such a young fella! Just remember to try your prototype on the rear wheel first before trying it on the front.
I've been using (older) XTR center lock all-steel (non-sandwiched) rotors on my bikes since 2003. Never had any issues at all to date. And they have lasted me literally 10's of 1000's of miles.
Dude get some new rotors. If your rotors get to thin you might go for your brakes on a fast downhill and the whole rotor jams into your calliper and throws you over the bars.
I have been using AFS 03 rotors for a few months now. One thing I noticed is that the rotor feels soft when installed with some third-party internal spline lockring. It appears that because these rotor were designed for AFS, their crown face area is slightly larger than the lockring of the usual size. ZIPP's 160mm lockring solves that problem (ZIPP has two sizes of lockrings, but both uses external spline).
Great vid, always been suspicious of the amount of material on these rotors to disapate the heat. We already know carbon rim brakes exceed 200C so having a much smaller disc makes the disappation of heat even harder. Interesting to see what you come up with. 👍
I'm wondering how many miles you are riding in 6 months. The Shimano rotors that came with my GRX group have been exceptional with lots of long downhill late braking use over 10K mi's and two years. Interesting vid though.
Great project, I look forward to hearing more! I have had similar issues with ice tech rotors- go out of true with the high heat on road, get bumped on the mtb. For reference, I am now using the slx/105 RT70 rotors with zero issues. Seems to behave like a six bolt, just pinned onto the centerlock spider instead of using bolts.
Looks like Shimano designed the rotors to be used with sacrificial (resin) pads and put the cost of disc/pad replacement on the heavier riders that need metal pads. Real shame but not unexpected. I've been told that being tall is a blessing... from those not used to paying more for less that doesn't last. Not a big complaint (pun) but it does get frustrating trying to be active in this day and age when everything seems built for the average user. I'm sure lighter riders can complain about bottom bracket heights and stand-over with frames. Such is life. In the future could you put part numbers in your video description? I'm interested in trying different brake rotors myself. My Shimano rotors are looking shabby.
Happy to provide input from my experience on Campy rotors over the 2-3 yrs I have on my All Roadie, along with the full steel Magura Storm rotors I have on my HT. Haven't had any overheating issues on either including some very long descents (one fully loaded bike packing in the Angeles, California and Lake Mountain, Aus). I'm a nervous decender so brake often but let them off so I don't cook the brakes. I've cooked rim brakes in the past (koolstop salmons) but feel more confident with discs.
£200 a year on discs? Wow, just wow. I'll stick to Campag Super Record and Record rim callipers (which are a bargain compared to the SR with just a 15g weight penalty). Though I suppose to be fair I should discount the cost of replacing the rims eventually! Really enjoy your content. Thanks for taking the time to make it.
I would like to know what you think about the fuids on the brakes too. Why Shimano uses mineral oil and Sram go with Dot fluid. This makes difference in the thermal side of things too? Can I use a Shimano rotor (designed to work with mineral fluid driven piston) with a Sram caliper and vice versa? This disc brake for road bikes is a hot topic now and you are the best to address the subject
In my experience (25+ years bicycle mechanic) the pad clearance issue in at least 50% of problematic cases comes from "overfilled" disc brakes. Most common directly from the bike factories. Great explanations that need more spreading to customers (which I will do at work). Keep on the good work! Greets to the 5 year old 😎
Interesting project, looking forward to findings. I have brand new 105 disc set 6 bolt one piece style and at 900 miles I've been extremely pleased with performance and not one complaint, I clean them every other ride and the wheels have not been off the bike since new or in and out of the car so bumping them hasn't happened. I am also very aware of braking technique to shed heat, never ride the brakes, I do 3-5 seconds at the most breaking at any given time, on fast DH hard break let off wait hard brake let off style.
I know it’s not been long but how you finding the campy disc? What pads you using aswell. I’m convinced that shimano disc/pad technology is behind other manufacturers
I'd be really curious if your shimano rotors were counterfeit. I've been using the ultegra rotors, and I'm 85kg in a reasonably hilly area and I've never seen anything like that delamination. Usually get a few years out of a set of rotors.
From doing some work in this area, I'll say I've never seen heat manage to effectively make its way from the rotor into the hub body. Most rotors are stainless, which is terrible at effectively transmitting heat through the minimal cross section of the webbing and has ample opportunity for both convective and radiative cooling given the spindly nature of most rotors. Those with aluminum spiders have a bit less resistance in regards to heat transfer, but by the same token any heat making its way into the aluminum is even more quickly radiated and blown away. As well, the brake pads/caliper/brake fluid act as a quite significant heat soak for the system. I'll also say that weight weeniesm is much of the cause of brake issues in the cycling world. The amount of mass used in bicycle brake rotors compared to the system mass is an order of magnitude less than for an auto or motorcycle, even though they're designed for ~similar speeds of operation. ED: As a follow up, take a look at images of people who have overheated their road or mtb brakes. The heat affected zone universally stops barely past the edge of the pad contact patch. Oh, also fun note on the Shimano rotors, definitely had a coworker manage to squeeze the aluminum out while riding in the Alps!
Good points. A motorbike rotor might be between 1-2kg, of a 180kg motorcycle + 70kg rider that is ~0.4-0.8%. If you take a 130g bike rotor, that is ~0.2% of the total system weight. So a fair bit less yeah.
A lot of the pro teams where using Shimano mtb rotors last year. Anyone noticed that the industry has caused lots of new problems to solve with discs. Brake rub, hysteresis, frame compliance frame and forks failures, increased spoke count, wider rims to increase rim torsional stiffness, fat tyres all design solutions to accommodate disc brakes. I’ll come back in 5 years time when you guys have done the hard yards and solved all the problems.
If you made the rotors the same size as the wheel, would that help with heat dissipation? And then perhaps you could integrate the rotors with the rim itself? What do you think?
Wish I had seen this video a couple of days ago before I purchased a pair of the same Shimano rotors...which is probably why this video appeared in my feed.
Great explanation again, making it understandable for everyone! My new bike frame arrives late August, will put winspace hyper wheels on them, so I will need new disc brakes also... Hoping to see yours available by then!
I don't seem to have the same issue on my mountain bike rotors compared to my road bike rotors. What is the difference and why don't they use the mountain bike product, calipers and rotors on the road bike groups? I assume it is weight. Is titanium an option as a material for the rotor? Probably costly but should be durable. Thanks for addressing the issue that bothers all of us and cost us many hours of frustration trying to get rid of the tick the night before a ride.
The Giant TCR Advanced 2 with RIM brakes I have been thinking about buying (as my first new bike in 45 years) is looking better and better every day! What do you folks think?
maybe you should try galfer rotors, they are floating rotors that can be either 1.85 or 2.00mm thick and can be used down to 1.3mm thickness. They're great. Edit: now a couple of minutes into the video, the galfer rotors are actually made the same way you describe you'd like your rotors to be, there's a 1 piece model made from high carbon steel (not stainless) with the center part anodized or painted, not exactly sure what kind of coating it is but it's there.
After a ton of research, I bought galfers in 160mm today. Not for the weight but because I just want better braking performance for high speed descends. Have you ever had any issues with them?
I too ditched Shimano rotors for Campagnolo, a fantastic upgrade and as a bike mechanic I always steer clients away from the Shimano sandwiched construction rotors
I had the Dura Ace rotors for a year and they warped all the time. I have replaced them with a spare Ice Tech RT81 and a new Hope floating rotor. I wonder whether the Dura Ace (and the XTR) braking surface having four attachment points instead of five makes them more vulnerable to warping.
Deckas floating rotors have had good feedback from some clients of mine . A friend makes rotors as he has a brake press and tooling to make them to a top secret design .
@@PeakTorque Sure, but that’s not intentional I suspect. Hope rotors have the relatively larger circular attachment, same as motorcycle and car floating rotors - designed to assist in even pad contact and more consistent bite points across varying temperatures. The Shimano rotors are technically two piece fixed. Floating means they’re designed to move to accommodate variable pad contact situations.
@@PeakTorque It seems it's normal and defined on the Campagnolo spec documents: support.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2362_Technical%20Manual%20-%20Disc_Brake%20-%20Campagnolo_Rev04_05_2022_ENG.pdf
I had a problem of Shimano disc rubbing when the brakes were hot. It seems it was caused by counterfeit JO2A brake pads. The black anodising was wearing off, which doesn't seem to happen on genuine pads, and the resin pads had golden metal bits in them.
I arrived at the same conclusion. Floating rotors are from high performance automotive. The aim is to _reduce_ temperature-induced warping of the rotor (caused by uneven heating from middle to outer edge of rotor). In cycling the energy is significantly less and the tolerances and masses are different. I’m not persuaded floating rotors are necessary on bicycles.
What do you weight and how many KM do you ride (downhill)? I just got the XTR rotors myself having had both Dura Ace and SRAM Centerline XR (don't recommend XRs, low stopping power and extremely noisy compared to Shimano rotors) with 105 R7000 calipers. Combined with ice-tech pads, ice-tech + freeza (the cooling fin) rotors I reckon I'll get the best possible performance braking performance short of getting Hope RX4+ calipers and GRX shifters/levers w more leverage, but I am a bit concerned about rotor longevity as I prefer L04S sintered pads (strongest in the wet and most contamination proof as crud tends to "burn off" rather than soak into the pad, making them quieter in the wet too). From my research it seems like the XTR/SAINT RT99 160 mm 118g is probably the best performing Shimano rotor with a "40 degree C reduction in heat vs. SM-RT98", and 5 arms compared to 4 in MT900. It's cooling fins look a lot more effective too, not the prettiest though. I notice the Shimano pads don't cover the entire width of the track on the Campag rotor, one user reported power loss in the wet: "I got significant loss of power when wet, my guess is the rotor is designed for pads to cover both top and bottom circle, shimano pad is too short " weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145230&start=180 Seems like SwissStop catalyst might be a better albeit marginally less pretty? pick for durability as they're designed for Shimano pads. They're releasing some new lighter models too.
Thinking about your argument here regarding heat getting into the hub bearings etc.... it all sounds plausible on the surface but then how would you explain this pertaining the disc brakes on a loaded truck going down a hill where much more heat is generated from application of the brakes? Also, the brake components on such a truck are much larger in size & mass therefore making them much greater conductors of heat. Automotive brake rotors & hubs are usually a single piece of steel and therefore have no barrier or insulator between the braking surface and the wheel bearings.
No you are incorrect with your understanding, as the rotors are larger they will dissipate the heat rather than conduct it towards the bearings and generally a vented design is employed. This design sees the two ‘faces’ of the disc spaced apart, giving room for cooling channels. These allow heat to escape, preventing the disc from getting too hot and cracking, while also increasing the life of the pads.
On the new Di2, Shimano has added some clearance to the brake caliper. So they are probably aware and might they also have redesigned the rotors to address these issues?
It seems to be a fad among British bicycles TH-camrs with an engineering background to develop their own components (Hambini: bottom brackets, Peak Torque: disc rotors). To contribute to the project: consider sodium cooling as used for outlet valves in automotive engineering!
Quite a bit more complex to engineer and manufacture into a slim rotor though. Sodium valves were pricey and mostly the bastion if high performance high temp engines like top fuel cars.
Impressive amount of comments here on disc brake performance or lack there of! I've not personally experienced any delam issues with any of my disc brake bikes other than annoying rubbing after long descents. I would be interested in trying your new steel rotors. I saw a few comments about the XTR on the road as well, from reading the Shimano technical manual they do not recommend using MTB rotors on road bikes.
A tungsten carbide coating has been utilized on brake discs in high performance automotive applications to improve performance, increase service intervals and reduce brake dust
Thanks for your nice explanation, now I know why my 105 rotors rub/make an annoying noice when I ride in the rain or during descends. A couple of bike shops told me that they advice everyone to go with the “SwissStop Catalyst” rotors. Yes they are heavier but they don’t have the warping issue & last way longer
I use catalyst rotors on my gravel bike... They last long, nearly 10000km in them and still some life left... However on long descends they undergo the same issue when heat starts to build up and they rub...then come back to place when cool down...
The problem might also be those tiny road disc's getting super hot compared to 220mm disc's on an MTB for example. A friend ride's hope floating rotors and they don't start rubbing from just getting a bit hot. Would like to see rotors from you for MTB as well! You should make the centerlock fit a bit tighter than Shimano as well while being at it already. They seem to be a rather loose fit for being a disc rotor and can come loose.
On further thought, the rotors need to be hard enough to resist the abrasion of the pads, but also have good thermal conductivity. Unfortunately these are almost mutually exclusive, however, hard coat anodised aluminium rotors could be the answer. Not sure if you would use a standard type 6061 aluminium or a hardened 7075 material. The issue here is what the best pad material would be. Good luck, you have generated a lot of interest here
With motorbikes there are "fully floating" discs which the carrier holds the rotor by way of buttons, they will move very slightly if you pull on them. They're for race bikes and massive touring bikes such as a ZX12R or ZZR1400 etc and often after market, although I do believe some came OE at times. The regular "floating discs" that are actually solidly secured (rotor to the carrier) will warp under high heat loads, they're most likely just styled like a race disc for marketing. A lot of 6 piston calipers were doing that in the 90s, bikes like the ZZR1100, ZXR750, YZF750, EXUP 1000 etc. However if you use fully floating discs for street use they don't get hot enough to expand and the carriers, which are usually aluminium, deform and wear away. I had a set of Spondon race discs on a 90s streetfighter that had this problem. Fabulous cast iron rotors but I just wasn't heating them enough and ruined them
Peak Torque Bicycle Components Co. "Quality engineering solutions at quality engineer prices" (read: not cheap) in 10 years you'll be selling carbon frames direct from Taiwan
You have brought tremendous value to cyclists with your experience and channel
This ^, I have learned so much and am really grateful for this channel making me a more aware consumer and home mechanic
What? Just ride your bike and replace the parts that wear or break.
@@aaron___6014 ... ignorant
@@tylergarza8695 ignorant of what? I have to be aware of what needs maintaining and see when something fails enough to try something new. Do you put this much thought into your car your mental health your body? Being aware that looking for the endless source of potential problems with things mechanical or biological is far from ignorant, accepting it and living your life instead is what I'm suggesting. Getting sucked into this mindset is ignorant.
Looking forward to the peak torque disc brakes 👍
Peak Stop brakes
@@basedgodstrugglin still a torque aint it
100% up for supporting your discs. That goes for any other products you have in mind going forward. I value your straight talking info massively 👌
It would be awesome to also try Swissstop after the Campy and do a comparison
I'd be happy to chip in via patreon paypal or some such so @peak torque can test them
@@lechprotean great idea.
@PeakTorque I jyst saw this vid 3 yrs late, what happened to the rotors?
Very excited to follow that project 👍🏻 Went back to my “old” rim brake bike after being on discs for a while - not just because of being annoyed by the brakes, but it sure is nice to have one thing less that needs fine-tuning all the time
Same.
Exactly...part of why I ride is a ‘simple’ mechanical interface, peaceful rides (I prefer quite hubs), and a ‘back 2 basics’ experience...discs, 2 much electrical equipment etc detracts from that~
@@SprayIgniteBoom I had this realisation recently while considering DI2.. I already get annoyed with keeping the head unit charged and pairing sensors, why add another battery etc to the list!
"You just didn't set the discs up properly"
@@durianriders 😂
I would buy your rotors right away when they come up for sale
Just because some guy on youtube burns his rotors up in the super steep mountains of asia doesn't mean yours will fail too.
Can't say for the other guy but I live on the hilly bits of hong kong island, from what I can tell it's where peak torque is based too so yea I'll definitely be snatching up a few rotors from him the second they go up for sale
this didn't age well. looks like you went back to the shimano rotors and are still complaining about them
This video answered all my questions about disc brakes. And i learned a lot more than i asked for. Cheers brother! Im shifting to disc brakes this month as sponsors are now supplying us disc brake bikes, and im already having nightmares on how to maintain them, let alone the cost
1.5 years ago, I got a disc brake road/endurance bike ... w/ Campy 160 rotors front & rear. After 6 months, I was occasionally stopping to "re-center" the pads while on rides. After 1.5 years, the rotors are slightly "warped". If I had had to replace them at 6 months as Peak Torque reported, I'd go crazy. More importantly, I believe good rim brakes are better for road bikes because of the KISS factor, reliability, and durability. I've had Campy Record rim brakes, so I can't comment on Shimano quality. I bought my first C-Record bike in 1962. I NEVER had any problems over the last 30 years/6k miles per year with good rim brakes. They stopped as well as my current discs, pads lasted longer than disc pads, and close to zero maintenance. Disc brakes = 1) re-centering, 2) quicker wear, 3) more parts, 4) more cost, 5) warping, 6) special tools, 7) hydraulics & bleeding. For ROAD, I consider discs a solution to a problem that never existed. Gravel is a different application though, and I'm not talking about MTBs.
Sanaol may sponsor
@@jerryc.5210The Shimano XT 8100 disc sets on my Trek custom mtb have been stellar with correct maintenance and cleanliness which I follow .
@@jerryc.5210 The new ice tech Shimano's are crack prone and not linished very well . They are Chinese "questionable" quality .
@@jerryc.5210I use Galfer 1.8mm thick discs in 180mm diameter or Deckas ones in floating bushing style with coloured 7075 carriers .
Carbon ceramic brakes! If you survive the first hairpin, you'll get great braking on the second! 😂😂😂
No you just warm up snaking back and forth with your brakes pulled
I'm super excited to see how much better you can make rotors compared to what's available now. I will definitely buy a set when its available.
It will cost 150 pounds and last about 3 months and the constant of re adjusting the rotors and calipers so it doesn’t rub 😂 made in ali china 🤣
Fascinated to see what you come up with versus what Shimano has in the pipeline with Dura-Ace 9200 brakes (and the context of Chris Froome's comments on disc brakes)
Considering their cranks have been failing for years due to poor design and they have not attempted to rectify the issue, they will probably not have any improvements in the pipeline.
A pleasant surprise you have anything Campagnolo on your bike. Before you know, you'll turn 40 and have a full super record gruppo installed :-)
Forgot to mention: only organic pads used.
Do you have any opinion on organic vs sintered pads?
stock shimano?
No fins???
Any update on how you like the Campy rotors? I need new rotors and am thinking to try the campy as well, if you still recommend them. And how are the ones you are designing are going?
Yeah mate I’ll be down to have a pair, good stuff👍
Don't even have disc brakes but instantly got reeled in this very informative piece.
Thank you! For years I have held the opinion that the rotor offerings were inadequate. Great video!!
I ride 800+ miles per month and my Shimano rotors still have tons of life left. However, they do tend to warp slightly but nothing I can't fix in a couple of minutes.
Yeah thisbguy is full of BS on his videos.
Now must be trying to start a business on a market full of the stuff for any given part.
I unsubscribed.
Hey Todd, which model of rotors are you using?
@@mihugong3153 I've used both the Dura-Ace SM-RT900 and the Ultegra SM-RT800 rotors. Both work great and I've had no wear issues using both of them for thousands of miles.
@@tccycling Cool, thanks for the info. I have XTRs on the way for my road bike, I guess I will try my luck :)
I ride and commute in only hills, I got 10 months out of my pads and rotors, that said I should have done them after prob 8 or 9
This seems very interesting, looking forward to seeing the progress!
an efficient rotor would be, perhaps the size of the actual wheel rim, with an efficient and simple calliper type system applying the pads to the surface. You could even use the actual wheel rim. Maybe one day, manufacturers will decide we need that
Yeah i'm running the Ice-tech rotors atm, I did wonder how long they will last with only a thin sliver of steel each side... Do you run resin or sintered metal pads to get this level of wear?
I’ve been saying for a while now (as a non engineer) that I think the ice tech isn’t the best. That’s from using them for years and experiencing the ‘warping’, the ticking etc and I could only put it down to the aluminium sandwich construction. Thanks so much for doing the video. You’ll have an order from me 100%.
I just found your channel and I have to say, you are quite good at this. This video was great, and very informative! Thank you.
I'm using SwissStop Catalyst Pro rotors on my shimano 105 disc brake equipped road bike and I love them.
Me too. My rotors have lasted over 1 year and I weigh 95+ kgs and ride in hilly Cornwall.
Use SwissStop pads too. 34 RS? Something like that.
Interesting. 6 months life for rotors is crazy! My bike came with RT99 rotors which I replaced at approx 17500 miles, or about 3 set of pads. I replaced them with R8000, and your video prompted me to check them - the rear is at 1.5mm after approx 6700 miles, so the lifespan has been worse! The Campag ones look better value so I will probably go that route too. Nice watch by the way, I have one of those myself!
I'll be keeping an eye out for updates on your rotors. Your design priorities match my riding/functionality priorities.
I'd buy some, but i think most people would be upset when their disks had rust on them. I'd be willing to guess that a surprising percentage of even the most expensive road bikes only get used a few times a year. I also think this push to make disk brake bikes as light as rim brake bikes so they can stop making rim brake bikes forces them to make rotors that don't have the mass they need to work right.
Agreed, rust would be a no go for me and I'd also like to see more road bike (centerlock) discs w/ thicker friction ring (i.e. >=2.0mm) for more mechanical and thermal stability.
Great engineer mindset! When its not in the market, create it!
Haha the expression at @2:37...Me every time I'm getting dropped on a climb and I blame it on the brakes rubbing. I'm totally interested in the project.
Good analysis. I use SLX RT-70 centerlock rotors on MTB (160 and 180mm). Reasonably priced and never had an issue. Cheers and keep up the excellent content.
Roadies a dragging tiny rotors with tiny little callipers down mountain descent nonstop for miles.
@Peak Torque do you think centrelock is the way to go for MTB hubs and rotors, or is 6 bolt still a good and reliable standard?
Also, do the centrelock adaptors that allow the use of six bolt rotors increase the risk of misalignment or instability? are some brand adaptors better than others?
Cheers
Deckas and the RT 54'S or Galfer are the way to go . He never made rotors at all "take peak torque with a grain of salt when it comes to him making promises he can't keep" .
Has this guy got a thermal physics Ph.D .?
What are the advantages of bleaching your hair? Marginal gains? I would like an engineering analysis on this subject, that would be really cool
Brighter colour reflects more light than it absorbs, effectively functioning as a solar sail. If Pogacar had frosted tips he'd be breaking the 1000W FTP barrier
Modelling career
My son recently had an Ultegra rotor fail after about 6 months use. The failure in his case was caused by the aluminium "cooling fins" becoming distorted meaning they rubbed on either side of the caliper.
The stainless part was less affected. A complaint to the retsiler said was responded to with "no warranty claim as you were "dragging your brakes"". My son has excrllent descrnding skills snd mskes much less use of his brakes than i do (i am a BC qualified coach so i know how to observe these things...until he gets out of site!). I will be definitely switching back to full steel rotors after watching this. Thank you.
if your just going to laser cut solid piece - maybe inconel or hastelloy would be a good choice if you can get some offcuts?
Really like your engineering knowledge - exceptional for such a young fella! Just remember to try your prototype on the rear wheel first before trying it on the front.
I've been using (older) XTR center lock all-steel (non-sandwiched) rotors on my bikes since 2003. Never had any issues at all to date. And they have lasted me literally 10's of 1000's of miles.
Dude get some new rotors. If your rotors get to thin you might go for your brakes on a fast downhill and the whole rotor jams into your calliper and throws you over the bars.
@@TheNotoriousMIC my current bike has around 40K miles on it and the XTR rotor thickness is fine. No significant or even noticeable wear.
@@theadventurebiker well if you’ve measured them and they’re still thick enough then we’ll done.
I'd be super interested in this project. Can't offer any expertise, but would definitely buy one
I have been using AFS 03 rotors for a few months now. One thing I noticed is that the rotor feels soft when installed with some third-party internal spline lockring. It appears that because these rotor were designed for AFS, their crown face area is slightly larger than the lockring of the usual size. ZIPP's 160mm lockring solves that problem (ZIPP has two sizes of lockrings, but both uses external spline).
Great vid, always been suspicious of the amount of material on these rotors to disapate the heat. We already know carbon rim brakes exceed 200C so having a much smaller disc makes the disappation of heat even harder. Interesting to see what you come up with. 👍
Awesome project! I’m almost sad I don’t have any disc brake bikes now^^
I'm wondering how many miles you are riding in 6 months. The Shimano rotors that came with my GRX group have been exceptional with lots of long downhill late braking use over 10K mi's and two years. Interesting vid though.
Cheaper Shimano SM-RT54 match his design wishes, something similar came with my S 105 brakes...
Now I understand why my Galfer road rotors don't ping after hard braking the way Shimano rotors do.
Great project, I look forward to hearing more! I have had similar issues with ice tech rotors- go out of true with the high heat on road, get bumped on the mtb. For reference, I am now using the slx/105 RT70 rotors with zero issues. Seems to behave like a six bolt, just pinned onto the centerlock spider instead of using bolts.
Looks like Shimano designed the rotors to be used with sacrificial (resin) pads and put the cost of disc/pad replacement on the heavier riders that need metal pads. Real shame but not unexpected. I've been told that being tall is a blessing... from those not used to paying more for less that doesn't last. Not a big complaint (pun) but it does get frustrating trying to be active in this day and age when everything seems built for the average user. I'm sure lighter riders can complain about bottom bracket heights and stand-over with frames. Such is life.
In the future could you put part numbers in your video description? I'm interested in trying different brake rotors myself. My Shimano rotors are looking shabby.
I was running-in a new rotor on steep descents, it started to smell like something was burning, and the rotor is now slightly brown...
I’m down to see a set. Plus loved the tech knowledge offered in the video. Keep in coming.
Happy to provide input from my experience on Campy rotors over the 2-3 yrs I have on my All Roadie, along with the full steel Magura Storm rotors I have on my HT. Haven't had any overheating issues on either including some very long descents (one fully loaded bike packing in the Angeles, California and Lake Mountain, Aus). I'm a nervous decender so brake often but let them off so I don't cook the brakes. I've cooked rim brakes in the past (koolstop salmons) but feel more confident with discs.
Road disc is an upgrade they said.....
#savetherimbrake
£200 a year on discs? Wow, just wow. I'll stick to Campag Super Record and Record rim callipers (which are a bargain compared to the SR with just a 15g weight penalty). Though I suppose to be fair I should discount the cost of replacing the rims eventually!
Really enjoy your content. Thanks for taking the time to make it.
Any update on these bespoke rotors? I recall liking the idea.
He demonstrated the nagging effect of the discs wobbling when hot + gave solid reasoning what to his mind causes this problem 👍🏻
I've had no issues with pad clearance with Hope Floating rotors. best rotors on the market, imo.
Interested to see what product you come up with - could be interested! 👍🏼
On my mt. bike depending if Im leaning and braking it will make rotor rub. Usually fixes it self by braking upright for a short stretch.
I would like to know what you think about the fuids on the brakes too. Why Shimano uses mineral oil and Sram go with Dot fluid. This makes difference in the thermal side of things too? Can I use a Shimano rotor (designed to work with mineral fluid driven piston) with a Sram caliper and vice versa? This disc brake for road bikes is a hot topic now and you are the best to address the subject
In my experience (25+ years bicycle mechanic) the pad clearance issue in at least 50% of problematic cases comes from "overfilled" disc brakes. Most common directly from the bike factories.
Great explanations that need more spreading to customers (which I will do at work).
Keep on the good work!
Greets to the 5 year old 😎
Hi. What do you mean with "overfilled" brakes? I think that psitons often don't fully retract because of overbleeding of the system
I've just bought new wheels. I'm having to go centerlock from 6 bolt. And I'm looking for rotors. So please keep me informed. Big thanks!
Interesting project, looking forward to findings. I have brand new 105 disc set 6 bolt one piece style and at 900 miles I've been extremely pleased with performance and not one complaint, I clean them every other ride and the wheels have not been off the bike since new or in and out of the car so bumping them hasn't happened. I am also very aware of braking technique to shed heat, never ride the brakes, I do 3-5 seconds at the most breaking at any given time, on fast DH hard break let off wait hard brake let off style.
really curious how the disk design is going now
I know it’s not been long but how you finding the campy disc? What pads you using aswell. I’m convinced that shimano disc/pad technology is behind other manufacturers
I'd be really curious if your shimano rotors were counterfeit. I've been using the ultegra rotors, and I'm 85kg in a reasonably hilly area and I've never seen anything like that delamination. Usually get a few years out of a set of rotors.
Impressive that he can find a problem that nobody else can.
@richde Not nobody else... the German bike magazine (bike-magazin.de) have been very critical of ice-tec in several generations of lab tests.
I've had my rt800 for 10 months using l03a resin pads and both pads and rotor need. Replacing
They aren't fakes. Depends on your weight and environment. Luke is 90 kgs and rides in hilly areas so he'd go through discs somewhat quicker
@@glennoc8585how are you determining the authenticity?
I'm basically the same, only I have a higher FTP so I'm arguably going a bit harder.
From doing some work in this area, I'll say I've never seen heat manage to effectively make its way from the rotor into the hub body. Most rotors are stainless, which is terrible at effectively transmitting heat through the minimal cross section of the webbing and has ample opportunity for both convective and radiative cooling given the spindly nature of most rotors. Those with aluminum spiders have a bit less resistance in regards to heat transfer, but by the same token any heat making its way into the aluminum is even more quickly radiated and blown away. As well, the brake pads/caliper/brake fluid act as a quite significant heat soak for the system.
I'll also say that weight weeniesm is much of the cause of brake issues in the cycling world. The amount of mass used in bicycle brake rotors compared to the system mass is an order of magnitude less than for an auto or motorcycle, even though they're designed for ~similar speeds of operation.
ED: As a follow up, take a look at images of people who have overheated their road or mtb brakes. The heat affected zone universally stops barely past the edge of the pad contact patch. Oh, also fun note on the Shimano rotors, definitely had a coworker manage to squeeze the aluminum out while riding in the Alps!
Wow that sounds extreme. Yep totally agree. There's just not enough thermal mass or surface area.
Good points. A motorbike rotor might be between 1-2kg, of a 180kg motorcycle + 70kg rider that is ~0.4-0.8%. If you take a 130g bike rotor, that is ~0.2% of the total system weight. So a fair bit less yeah.
Haha my friend said it happened to one of the guides he was working with in the alps. Might be the same guy.
You're spot on. I've moved back to rim, fed up with them. Would love some PT disc though!
Down to try your rotors too...my shimano rotors have always gone out of true all the dang time.
Definitely interested in your steel rotor solution,
A lot of the pro teams where using Shimano mtb rotors last year. Anyone noticed that the industry has caused lots of new problems to solve with discs. Brake rub, hysteresis, frame compliance frame and forks failures, increased spoke count, wider rims to increase rim torsional stiffness, fat tyres all design solutions to accommodate disc brakes. I’ll come back in 5 years time when you guys have done the hard yards and solved all the problems.
If you made the rotors the same size as the wheel, would that help with heat dissipation? And then perhaps you could integrate the rotors with the rim itself? What do you think?
If you mount the caliper to the rear of the fork crown then the aero would be even better and improve braking performance too .
A rim brake is essentially a disc brake after this definition, a disc brake with the maximum possible rotor diameter ;-)
@@simonm1447 yup
Wish I had seen this video a couple of days ago before I purchased a pair of the same Shimano rotors...which is probably why this video appeared in my feed.
Great explanation again, making it understandable for everyone! My new bike frame arrives late August, will put winspace hyper wheels on them, so I will need new disc brakes also... Hoping to see yours available by then!
I don't seem to have the same issue on my mountain bike rotors compared to my road bike rotors. What is the difference and why don't they use the mountain bike product, calipers and rotors on the road bike groups? I assume it is weight. Is titanium an option as a material for the rotor? Probably costly but should be durable. Thanks for addressing the issue that bothers all of us and cost us many hours of frustration trying to get rid of the tick the night before a ride.
The Giant TCR Advanced 2 with RIM brakes I have been thinking about buying (as my first new bike in 45 years) is looking better and better every day! What do you folks think?
Stick with Rim brakes, on my TCR advanced SL rim brake model requires little attention and brakes excellent. In fact better than my Defy with discs
@@1rickqwert Thanks for the feedback!
I’d be interested in a set - great work, loving the channel 👊
Interested in having a set !!
Would love to know more about this and give yours a try
maybe you should try galfer rotors, they are floating rotors that can be either 1.85 or 2.00mm thick and can be used down to 1.3mm thickness. They're great. Edit: now a couple of minutes into the video, the galfer rotors are actually made the same way you describe you'd like your rotors to be, there's a 1 piece model made from high carbon steel (not stainless) with the center part anodized or painted, not exactly sure what kind of coating it is but it's there.
After a ton of research, I bought galfers in 160mm today. Not for the weight but because I just want better braking performance for high speed descends. Have you ever had any issues with them?
Designing your own brakes? Super cool! 👍
I too ditched Shimano rotors for Campagnolo, a fantastic upgrade and as a bike mechanic I always steer clients away from the Shimano sandwiched construction rotors
I had the Dura Ace rotors for a year and they warped all the time. I have replaced them with a spare Ice Tech RT81 and a new Hope floating rotor. I wonder whether the Dura Ace (and the XTR) braking surface having four attachment points instead of five makes them more vulnerable to warping.
Deckas floating rotors have had good feedback from some clients of mine . A friend makes rotors as he has a brake press and tooling to make them to a top secret design .
They’re not floating - floating rotors are where the rotor can move on the spider.
Hope rotors are floating for example.
These rotors definitely move on the spider... intended or not! Those rivets are not a perfect lockded 6dof fastener.
@@PeakTorque Sure, but that’s not intentional I suspect. Hope rotors have the relatively larger circular attachment, same as motorcycle and car floating rotors - designed to assist in even pad contact and more consistent bite points across varying temperatures.
The Shimano rotors are technically two piece fixed. Floating means they’re designed to move to accommodate variable pad contact situations.
Someone not named Froggy doesn't know what a floating rotor is, or that the flex of a thin sheet of metal isn't "float."
@@PeakTorque It seems it's normal and defined on the Campagnolo spec documents: support.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_2362_Technical%20Manual%20-%20Disc_Brake%20-%20Campagnolo_Rev04_05_2022_ENG.pdf
looking forward to your disc design Peak!
I had a problem of Shimano disc rubbing when the brakes were hot. It seems it was caused by counterfeit JO2A brake pads. The black anodising was wearing off, which doesn't seem to happen on genuine pads, and the resin pads had golden metal bits in them.
Can't wait to see those discs of yours op.
I arrived at the same conclusion. Floating rotors are from high performance automotive. The aim is to _reduce_ temperature-induced warping of the rotor (caused by uneven heating from middle to outer edge of rotor). In cycling the energy is significantly less and the tolerances and masses are different. I’m not persuaded floating rotors are necessary on bicycles.
What do you weight and how many KM do you ride (downhill)?
I just got the XTR rotors myself having had both Dura Ace and SRAM Centerline XR (don't recommend XRs, low stopping power and extremely noisy compared to Shimano rotors) with 105 R7000 calipers. Combined with ice-tech pads, ice-tech + freeza (the cooling fin) rotors I reckon I'll get the best possible performance braking performance short of getting Hope RX4+ calipers and GRX shifters/levers w more leverage, but I am a bit concerned about rotor longevity as I prefer L04S sintered pads (strongest in the wet and most contamination proof as crud tends to "burn off" rather than soak into the pad, making them quieter in the wet too).
From my research it seems like the XTR/SAINT RT99 160 mm 118g is probably the best performing Shimano rotor with a "40 degree C reduction in heat vs. SM-RT98", and 5 arms compared to 4 in MT900. It's cooling fins look a lot more effective too, not the prettiest though.
I notice the Shimano pads don't cover the entire width of the track on the Campag rotor, one user reported power loss in the wet:
"I got significant loss of power when wet, my guess is the rotor is designed for pads to cover both top and bottom circle, shimano pad is too short
" weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145230&start=180
Seems like SwissStop catalyst might be a better albeit marginally less pretty? pick for durability as they're designed for Shimano pads. They're releasing some new lighter models too.
notice me senpai
Interesting sounding project with your own design rotors. Would certainly be interested to try a set out!
+1
Thinking about your argument here regarding heat getting into the hub bearings etc.... it all sounds plausible on the surface but then how would you explain this pertaining the disc brakes on a loaded truck going down a hill where much more heat is generated from application of the brakes? Also, the brake components on such a truck are much larger in size & mass therefore making them much greater conductors of heat. Automotive brake rotors & hubs are usually a single piece of steel and therefore have no barrier or insulator between the braking surface and the wheel bearings.
No you are incorrect with your understanding, as the rotors are larger they will dissipate the heat rather than conduct it towards the bearings and generally a vented design is employed. This design sees the two ‘faces’ of the disc spaced apart, giving room for cooling channels. These allow heat to escape, preventing the disc from getting too hot and cracking, while also increasing the life of the pads.
On the new Di2, Shimano has added some clearance to the brake caliper. So they are probably aware and might they also have redesigned the rotors to address these issues?
Hi
I am interested in your rotors. Will you have a seperate video about them soon?
Is it too late to join the early bird sale?
Thanks Felix
It seems to be a fad among British bicycles TH-camrs with an engineering background to develop their own components (Hambini: bottom brackets, Peak Torque: disc rotors).
To contribute to the project: consider sodium cooling as used for outlet valves in automotive engineering!
Quite a bit more complex to engineer and manufacture into a slim rotor though. Sodium valves were pricey and mostly the bastion if high performance high temp engines like top fuel cars.
What is Peak Torque's background?
Impressive amount of comments here on disc brake performance or lack there of! I've not personally experienced any delam issues with any of my disc brake bikes other than annoying rubbing after long descents. I would be interested in trying your new steel rotors. I saw a few comments about the XTR on the road as well, from reading the Shimano technical manual they do not recommend using MTB rotors on road bikes.
A tungsten carbide coating has been utilized on brake discs in high performance automotive applications to improve performance, increase service intervals and reduce brake dust
Thanks for your nice explanation, now I know why my 105 rotors rub/make an annoying noice when I ride in the rain or during descends.
A couple of bike shops told me that they advice everyone to go with the “SwissStop Catalyst” rotors. Yes they are heavier but they don’t have the warping issue & last way longer
I use catalyst rotors on my gravel bike... They last long, nearly 10000km in them and still some life left... However on long descends they undergo the same issue when heat starts to build up and they rub...then come back to place when cool down...
The problem might also be those tiny road disc's getting super hot compared to 220mm disc's on an MTB for example.
A friend ride's hope floating rotors and they don't start rubbing from just getting a bit hot.
Would like to see rotors from you for MTB as well! You should make the centerlock fit a bit tighter than Shimano as well while being at it already. They seem to be a rather loose fit for being a disc rotor and can come loose.
I would be interested in a set of your rotors
On further thought, the rotors need to be hard enough to resist the abrasion of the pads, but also have good thermal conductivity. Unfortunately these are almost mutually exclusive, however, hard coat anodised aluminium rotors could be the answer. Not sure if you would use a standard type 6061 aluminium or a hardened 7075 material. The issue here is what the best pad material would be.
Good luck, you have generated a lot of interest here
Great idea! How about Hope RX centerlock rotors for a quick fix?
I am using the Hope Road CLs, and I love them. However, I haven't done any big descents and gotten my rotors properly hot as hell.
With motorbikes there are "fully floating" discs which the carrier holds the rotor by way of buttons, they will move very slightly if you pull on them. They're for race bikes and massive touring bikes such as a ZX12R or ZZR1400 etc and often after market, although I do believe some came OE at times. The regular "floating discs" that are actually solidly secured (rotor to the carrier) will warp under high heat loads, they're most likely just styled like a race disc for marketing. A lot of 6 piston calipers were doing that in the 90s, bikes like the ZZR1100, ZXR750, YZF750, EXUP 1000 etc. However if you use fully floating discs for street use they don't get hot enough to expand and the carriers, which are usually aluminium, deform and wear away. I had a set of Spondon race discs on a 90s streetfighter that had this problem. Fabulous cast iron rotors but I just wasn't heating them enough and ruined them
I have the same Shimano rotors and the exact same problem. I'll definitely run Peak Torque Rotors!
Had to subscribe for Peak Torque disc brake. Count me in!
Peak Torque Bicycle Components Co.
"Quality engineering solutions at quality engineer prices" (read: not cheap)
in 10 years you'll be selling carbon frames direct from Taiwan
Where are you on your rotor design project?
Any feedback on the Campy rotors?
Thanks….great job….love your videos!
Great idea, hopefully the tarnished inside/outside edges can still dispel the heat.
Great video👍. My ultegra ice tech rotor rubbing in ascent and sprinting. When i swap for campagnolo it will sort out too?