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A Historical and Biblical Defense of Icons with Nathan Jacobs (Hank Unplugged Podcast)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2020
- Nathan Jacobs is a renaissance man. As an artist, author, philosopher, professor and filmmaker, Dr. Jacobs is truly an inspirational, informative and interesting individual. He joins Hank Hanegraaff, host of the Bible Answer Man broadcast, for a series of podcasts seeking to better explain Eastern Orthodoxy and explain away many of the most common misconceptions people have about Eastern Orthodoxy. In episode two of this series of "Hank Unplugged", Nathan and Hank make a historical and biblical defense of icons and wonder whether those who are against iconography may actually have an inadequate understanding of the incarnation. Topics discussed include: John of Damascas and his defense of icons (2:35); do those who are against icons, iconoclasts, have an inadequate view of the incarnation? (6:00); explaining the veneration of icons (13:45); the historical role of icons in a world of illiteracy and oral traditions that didn’t have the biblical texts that we often take for granted today (26:35); the appeal and potential profundity of icons in our world today as evangelical examples (31:20); an article by Hank’s son David Hanegraaff, “Does the Bible Answer Man’s son believe he has left the Christian faith?” and a preview of the next podcast in the series (38:25).
Nathan Jacobs's article, “John of Damascus and His Defense of Icons” is in the following issue of the Christian Research Journal. Subscribe today (Feb. 2020) and receive this as your first issue. ✅ Subscribe to the Christian Research Journal: www.equip.org/...
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Beautiful, thank you so much. As an Orthodox Christian married to a protestant these videos have helped my wife and I find common ground. You guys explain orthodoxy way better than I ever could. Beautiful work guys. ☦️
Thank you for this. The subject of icons is truly one of my last holdouts (stumbling blocks) concerning Orthodoxy. I’ve come a long way, even to the point of having icons in my home but very cautiously. One thing that Nathan touched on has really helped me on my journey: he mentioned that John of Damascus pointed to many instances in the Bible in which people venerated other people or objects and were not rebuked for it. The manner in which the veneration was practiced is for most Evangelicals Western Christians something foreign. Bowing to another person to honor them is not typically our practice. We tend to automatically associate bowing with worship, as in that which is due to God alone. So I think there is a cultural-practice barrier that must be navigated here before we can be truly accepting of the veneration of icons.
Read about "the icon made without hands." It was the first case of veneration of an icon. It is the story of king Abgar who was healed by Christ. A towel given to him in which the Savior had wiped his face and his image was left on the towel. Anyways, you can read the whole story for yourself.
Please view my other comments dear friend.
As for King Agbar and the image of Christ’s face on the cloth we also read in scripture of the Apostle Paul having cloths sent from his person to people and healing them. These as far as scripture records had no image on them. So whether this had an image or not makes no difference as it was from Christ according to Eusebius of Caesaria who is not considered a holy elder in the Orthodox church rather somewhat of a heretic. So whether the story is true or not that we cannot tell. If he was healed it is not because of a pretty picture on the cloth and it certainly doesn't give us mandate to venerate the cloth. Remember when Cornelius wanted to venerate Peter he was told to get up. For sure thst was relative worship or veneration. He knew he wasn't God! Same with the angel and John in the apocalypse. Veneration is idolatry. Period!
@@simonpearson5295 it just isn't. I mean you can claim that it is but that just makes you a heretic. See st. John of Damascus, and 7th ecumenical council in Nicea of the 8th century
I enjoyed listening to you years ago when I drifted away fro Orthodoxy, enjoy listening to you now so much more so that I came back and that you are home now. Looking forward to the next podcast
Hank, we need you in Orthodoxy with your command of the Bible. Continue to love us and guide us!,
Silly argument on Icons, I have family pictures everywhere home, wallet, and work. So do others folks.
We all know the pictures aren’t “real” but they “help us to focus” on the people we love: ICON 🌹☦️🌹
Thank you, that helped me so much ! God bless you!
I love it when you guys talk keep up the good work God bless you guys and your families 👉✝️
Hello to the little chap in the background 24:30 🙋
Love this content, Hank. Thank you
I lived in Kiyv, Ukraine for a while and enjoyed the "Lavr" there - they designate it as a holy place for the Ukrainian orthydox. I never could accept the icons beautiful as they were. One of my friends invited me to a church and he showed me an icon and told me to ask saint such and such for help with a struggle I was going through. This for me was impossible; I told my friend i would just ask Gd directly. I listened to this teaching and found some of the arguments interesting but not compelling. For me it all comes back to "why do we need to invent an icon system" to begin with? Understanding continuous revelation from OT times to now why didn't Ancient Israel have icons? I understand Nathan's referencing of the ark and holy relics and such but icons really are a totally new innovation and alien to ancient Israel. I'm trying to be open minded on this; the closest thing I could think of are decorations such as mosaic floors in ancient synagogues but something you stand on doesn't seem to be something "venerable." I really was hoping for some stronger arguments as it would be nice if there wsa a continuous tradition from the true religion in the Messiah's day to today but jumping to icons seems like such radical change in houses of worship. Having observed Russians and Ukrainians in Orthodox churches, it sure looks/feels different how they relate to the icons of various saints than the way Nathan is presenting it here. People really seemed to be praying to them. Perhaps the application in Greek orthodox or other flavors of orthodox expression is different? One point of respect, in the Russian and Ukrainian churches there are no pews / seats... the worshippers STAND through the entire service!
This is my view on it. Why would I ask a saint in Heaven to pray for me when I can take the issue straight to Jesus? Can they even hear us? The only instance in the Bible I remember off the top of my head is when the rich man died and asked Abraham to send someone to tell his family lest they also go to hell. I don’t think he was thinking of them currently, just how they were when he died.
I understand Orthodox Christians aren’t actually worshiping the physical elements the icons are made of, but I do appreciate that the icons are a point of focus to lead our worship to Jesus. And of course bowing as a sign of respect is totally okay, especially to a person who lived an exceptional life and died. I’m just not sure there’s any precedent for it in the Bible. I don’t think there’s a comparison for an icon made today (or hundreds of years ago) to the Book of the Law or to the temple. Those were exceptional circumstances that God’s Spirit dwelled or touched.
And it seemed they used John of Damascus’ words as final. No matter how solid he was in his Christian faith, he was still a fallible man.
It is fascinating to listen to people who support the veneration of icons speaking of how common it is tor people to kiss pictures of people they love. Yet how many times has anyone ever seen this done? I have lived a long time and have never seen anyone kiss a picture of his or her spouse or children.. This argument is a stretch. The rist will always be the walking the line between worship and appreciatiion.
I have been exploring eastern Orthodoxy for the last 6 months. I am 5 months into the catechumen process, but I discovered the canons of the 7th ecumenical councils, and specifically the anathemas. According to that council someone is anathema if they don't venerate ("salute") an icon and finally "anyone who rejects the written and unwritten traditions of the church is anathema". So, am I supposed to believe that if someone doesn't make the sign of the cross or is uncomfortable with venerating an icon is anathema? I just can't understand that. I am ready to throw in the towel on Orthodoxy. Maybe somebody can explain this and provide a reasonable explanation?
Yes, the Ecumenical Council did confirm the use of icons in worship. For the iconodule the anathemas can easily be affirmed. For the iconoclast there is reason for tension. This is a debate that is cause for pause and consideration.
Please see the following equip.org resources….
www.equip.org/article/john-of-damascus-and-his-defense-of-icons/
www.equip.org/article/how-was-orthodoxy-established-in-the-ecumenical-councils/
I enjoy hearing the Orthodox (and Roman Catholic) perspective on our faith. Nathan's arguments are internally consistent. They are authoritative if you accept that the Church Fathers texts as having the same authority as Scripture.
Technically, the Fathers have greater authority than scripture because it was the Fathers that authoritatively declared which scripture is inspired and which is not.
Dispensationalism or Concordism in Evangelicalism is a greater hang up then iconography (and I a Protestant)
I guess being Catholic and Irish I need to understand that what is natural to me is unnatural to others but equally I am kind of tired of defending and explaining.
while I enjoyed this, I do think it does away with the fallen "human element' or human nature, that has its influence with icons and traditions and ceremonies . Always God is interested in content". in our lives,and in our hearts , and man replaces it with a statue, icon or a religious ceremony or tradition. Its spiritually easier to keep a tradition. or if we can say a word ,rather than do a deed, we will say the word. With icons and religious ceremonies the human element does come into play.I know by experience as a child, that the statue has a definite effect on us, as it does with pictures and icons. A statue is humanised we think that the statue is really the personification of the person, or a icon replaces truth..... “The hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”..... . I am not suggesting that is the case with all believers. If these things lead us to God soley, great . These issues can be witnessed with the Isarelites in the old testament , and Jesus spoke of traditions " null and voiding the word of god". The history of the Israelites can be mirrored in the new testament church. God sent prophets to preach and warn the people to worship him alone and return to his truths and the Apostles having to teach again the truth, because of the wandering away from the truths set down". I can see this in the protestant church today . Remember Always God is interested in content". in our lives, and in our hearts These issues can be shown witnessed in the early church, with the Papacy and Rome becoming corrupt. From this historically we can see that many of Saints started orders to try to turn people back to gods truth .St Francis of Assisi was one of those saints..this is just my humble opinion, and from reading church history, which I enjoy, it is something that seems prevailent. I have tasted of Catholicism and Protestantism in my life, I love the Word of God and its witness of God and truth. But frankly I have had enough of the Tons of doctrines and teachings, may god have mercy on us all
How does Deut 4 square with 1 John? The apostle never applies his words in the way Orthodox (and Rome in their own ways) has in making and venerating icons. There is no compelling evidence in the NT to consider the commandments against images of God are abrogated. This remains one of my strongest reasons to reject Orthodoxy and remain Protestant.
Amen. I've found so much great information from HH, however I disagree with him on this one.
1500 years of ecclesiology and Christianity prior to the reactionary evolution of Protestantism has to be ignored in order take that view. These types of narrow and shallow arguments read like this: “I base my faith on the faith defended and hammered out in Katholikos church councils, as well the scriptures hammered out and deemed canonical in the Katholikos councils but I’m going to reject all other councils and traditions of early Christianity in favor of my own modern traditions, all the while using only the 500 year old revised version of said canon, that I prefer, to defend my bias in doing so”... okay, 👍🏼
You want to reject Christianity for Protestantism? Why would you want to do that? The reformers thought they knew everything and sadly have led millions astray. Apparently 1500 years of church history and practice and wisdom means nothing...
@@tellmethetruth4844 You did not respond to the substance of my post. The Reformers understood and cited the Church Fathers plenty. Us Protestants also recognize the good that has come out of many of the church councils. However the key difference is we see no where in Scripture itself which would advance the claim that those early bishops and teachers and councils have the same kind of authority as the Scriptures themselves.
When it comes to the use of icons, much of what you said is irrelevant anyways as there were church fathers and saints throughout the centuries which opposed their use. So who is right? To the Law and the Testimony, as Isaiah said.
@@josephsaab7208 No, the Reformers did not think they knew everything. Semper Reformanda. They recognized that fallible men do not know everything and therefore rejected the claim of church tradition as an authority alike Scripture - which alone is breathed out by God Who alone knows everything.
Christianity is derived from God's Word. When men err from the Word, be them church fathers or priests or the pope himself, it is something other than Christianity being practiced. When Israel strayed away from God's Word to worship on their high places, and did so for centuries, was it wrong that King Josiah destroyed such worship? The longevity of a practice speaks nothing at all to its truthfulness. Though the church has always had a voice against idolatry, including her use of icons.
There is so much I value about Eastern Orthodoxy, however, kissing on a picture/icon
is not one of them. Bowing down and kissing a likeness of a Desert Father comes
across (to me) as worship. (Romans 14:5-7, 10-13). It is not my job to judge those
who do, nor is it their job to judge those who do not. Let us just choose to walk in
love with one another. I do honor those who have gone before me in serving our
Lord, however, my honoring does not include bowing and kissing, particularly since
angels themselves do not want us bowing down to them.
Hey Kelley, I can assure you that kissing the holy icons is not worship. It’s merely a sign of love and honor to the Saint depicted in the icon. There are examples within scripture of Veneration in Daniel 5 (if memory serves right).
I agree, Kelley. One can appreciate those who have lived godly before us without having to kiss them, etc. Kissing an icon, as long as the person isn’t worshiping this above God, doesn’t mean that person isn’t saved. Conversely, me not feeling comfortable with that practice for myself does not mean that I’m not saved. It’s not a salvific issue, either way. I don’t / wouldn’t feel comfortable with that, but if others do, and as long as their hearts aren’t committing idolatry, then to each his own. We must overlook secondary issues and unite on the basics of the gospel and the foundational truths of the faith, in love. As long as it depends on each one of us, we are to be at peace with others. We can’t control how others act towards us, but can only control our own attitudes and actions. Know what I mean?
Is bowing to someone that is not God allways a worship?
It’s been brought to my attention the whitewashing of Holy Icons I’m finding this very disturbing can anyone please help me out with this ?
@Jeremy ~ Yes. There were Iconoclasts whom out of their own misapprehension of the Scriptures and the Triune God revealed in the Scriptures destroyed Church icons. See www.equip.org/article/john-of-damascus-and-his-defense-of-icons/
@@BibleAnswerMan oh wow thank you so much for responding to me I greatly deeply appreciate it May The Grace Of Jesus Christ The Love Of Our Heavenly Father And The Fellowship Of The Holy Ghost Be With You And Your Family Forever 🙏🏼 🫡☦️
CRI in regards to SPOTIFY: could you please put within the Title the podcast episode #. Thanks.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Also, we obey God. We do not obey what is not divine unless they following the Divine for the sake of the Divine. We honor the image bearers which honored and continue to honor well the Divine.
It seems to me that many people look at the physical action of kissing or bowing with regard & judge it to be idolatry no matter what is actually taught about it in Orthodoxy. To do that is to ignore the fact that what really defines it is not the physical action but what is the focus in the persons mind. As long as they are honoring Gods grace shown in the persons then how can that be idolatry? No serious Orthodox thinks that anyone can do anything good apart from Gods grace. To judge it totally on the superficial action seems very misguided indeed. Like religion for dummies.
You know I agree with you that no one knows what is in a person's heart but God himself. That said, when it comes to "worship" and it's biblical context and definition from the original language, it always involves the same recurrent elements: bowing down, prostrating oneself, as a sign of humility or homage." From the Biblical context as well, when these things are directed toward physical representations, statues or images, it is considered idolatry. Of course, one could say "but I can separate all of these physical acts from the mental acts of idolatry," but where would we end up if we argued similarly with every other commandment? In my view, it is simply not a biblically tenable position.
@@e.z.1913 it absolutely does not always contain the same elements
Jesus Christ is not only the Word of God,but also the Icon of God.
Jesus Christ is God and Man
@@maximusgladiator4010 correct . But also the Word of God and his Εικών Icon col 1:15 2 cor 4:4
@@user-pj7sq7ce1f agree, but do we really need icons made by human hands to communicate to God? God gave us Holy Spirit. Jesus said if you see Me you see my Father. He didn't say to look into man made icon.
@@maximusgladiator4010 the word is iconography . Meaning the writing of the icons . Read ch 89 or 4:16 of Saint John the Damascian work the exact expodition of the orthodox faith. From 7 th century. Solid triadology Christology ecclesiology soteriology in that ch says why we have icons and what they actually mean
@@user-pj7sq7ce1f thanks. Can you refer to God’s Word the Bible to support it?
Isaiah 37:18-19
18 Truly, LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations and their lands, 19 and have cast their gods into the fire; for they were not gods, but the work of men’s hands-wood and stone. Therefore they destroyed them.
People kiss and pray to icons as if I come can listen or speak. It’s not like Peter is sitting with Jesus saying, “Lord, little Susie is asking me to tell you to heal her puppy”
Does Jesus not hear himself, does He not make intersession for us Himself? Does the Holy Spirit not speak with groaning that we do not even know how to express? What do we need Peter, Paul, or any of the other ancient saints to intercede for us for; the Lord Himself hears us. Were we told to enter boldly through Peter or Paul? No, it is only through Christ that we come to the Father. For sure we are to pray for one another, but that is a commandment for those who are alive to pray. The saints who have fallen asleep in the Lord cannot see, hear, or speak.
Mt 22:32 . I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
@@michailkazakos23 So was Peter (Your first Pope) lying on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2:29; “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.”?
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead, as those who die without hope. They are dead, but in the hope of resurrection. So even though they are dead, it is as if they never died. The moment they closed their eyes is as fast as the moment God will reopen them.
@@316350 our souls doesn’t die, clearly peter talking about Davids body.
@@michailkazakos23 First let me say I’m sorry if I came across as condescending. I am sincerely trying to find the common ground in all the doctrinal differences between all believers. I believe any person who has placed their faith and hope in Jesus Christ is my brother and sister.
In Acts 2:29, I do not think Peter makes the distinction between body and soul; I believe we read that idea into the verse because it’s been the prominent idea historically.
This topic, although somewhat related to the original topic, does not get at the core of what I am interested to find out.
If Jesus is still alive, and Himself intercedes for us, and the word of God tells us that God’s Spirit searches our hearts and minds, specifically to make intercession on our behalf, why do you need to pray to Mary or any other saint to then ask them to pray for you as though God didn’t know your mind and heart before you even thought or spoke any prayer?
Great because I just received another tornado alert
There is no hint of icons in the first 200 years of the church. If so, please point it out. Yet the orthodox require veneration (bowing to and kissing) of man-made images.
@jamiemacleod3994 See article on the defense of icons by John of Damascus > www.equip.org/article/john-of-damascus-and-his-defense-of-icons/
@@BibleAnswerMan John of Damascus is 8th century, Very late.
Clearly there are no positive references to icons in the early Church or you woukd name them. There are a couple of negative references.
no mention at all of Matthew 16, where Jesus RE-NAMES Peter as ROCK, Kepa' in Aramaic, which can only mean large rock, and gives him the keys to the Kingdom, clearly referring back to Shebna and Eliakim in Isaiah 22:15-24..you are on the right road but it DOES NOT lead only to the East...how could Jesus build a Church for ONE-HALF of the human race?
My wife is my stumbling block.😢
@danielgaley9676 Please explain?
Very respectfully: i do not understand the practice of body's and body parts being used in Orthodox/Catholic churches. In my research Ive even seen that parts are imbeded into or under alters.
I know this question could be dismissed as out western life being far removed from the harsh realities of death, decay, etc. (Yes i also realize that historicaly church properties used to have on-site cemeteries wheras now we favor mega parking lots and tendy electric signs and water fountains )
This practice just seems so very startling and nearly pagan. Forgive my ignorance.
@Think Tank The preservation of the parts are relics. The keeping of relics of Christian saints, martyrs in particular, is an ancient church practice. For more information, please consult Welcome to the Orthodox Church: An Introduction to Eastern Orthodoxy by Frederica Mathews-Green. www.equip.org/product/welcome-orthodox-church/
We have to admit that we are uncomfortable with God becoming man. It's just too scandalous.
Nathan refers to the "sacramental" construction of these icons. In effect, these icons have become additional sacraments of the church. There is no evidence for the need for new sacraments in the new testament. I can't imagine Paul, Peter or James recommending the kissing of sacramental images of themselves. I can't buy it, sorry. Having images and education about the church fathers is great. Veneration of them as part of my spiritual practice, no.
We actually have an icon of St Luke painting an icon of the Theotokos and Christ. It's part of the tradition.
J
There is a story about when an Orthodox Church was raided in Russia by a group of Communists.
They took an icon of Jesus and put it at the door exit.
They forced the people of the church to line up and SPIT on the icon of Jesus and get in a line outside or they would be executed.
One by one the people SPIT on the icon as they passed by until a young girl in tears kneeled down and wiped the spit on the icon off with her dress.
The Communists were disgusted with the cowards who spit on the icon and executed them anyway and let the girl go.
Some of the Communists later converted to Christ by her witness.
When you attend a Protestant church you only have the pastor to look at in front of blank white washed walls indicating that Jesus was not a man who could be painted and is the heresy of docetism!
When I attend my Orthodox Church I see icons of Christ testifying that Jesus was really God in human flesh and the icons are a visual Bible showing Jesus' birth, baptism, life events, transfiguration, Lord's supper, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.
The icons of Mary the Mother of God always have Jesus with her. She is never alone.
As a life long Orthodox, I as a child and my illiterate grandmother learned about Jesus with the help of icons.
Icons helped us remember the real life about Jesus every Sunday in church.
I have never ever worshipped an icon.
But I respect icons just as I do photos of my parents who are alive now with Jesus in heaven and continue to pray for me.
It took a few centuries for icons to be developed just as it did to determine the canon of the Bible by the Orthodox Church.
Jesus said,
"On this rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell will not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18
So there is no reason for Protestantism. The Orthodox Church never had or needed a reformation.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched-this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ!"
1 John 1:1-3
To deny icons of Jesus Christ, God made flesh, is in the spirit of anti-Christ!
"I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!"
2 John 1:7
So we can "honor" the images (icons) but is not the same as idolatry that somehow the honored image is similar or like the image we believe is, but has eyes, mouth, feet that are useless and somehow it is OK.
Awesome I can now sin without remorse, since I have pictures of my family which is exactly as the icons that are honored.
Fascinating, thanks for making sin a new forgiven honored un-sin.
Please Hank go away please
And why do you post this comment?
Nonsense. Veneration of icons is clearly an accretion of what the early church taught. Sad.
@ribeirosam Please explain how such came about?
@@BibleAnswerMan crickets