Please don’t take this the wrong way as I have watched all your content and am a fan. I do appreciate this video but as a fellow technical-minded BBQ cook (M. Eng) I have a few reservations. Your statements about the efficiency of a fire being affected by the presence of the water pan are erroneous. The efficiency of a wood-burning fire is not affected by anything in the cook chamber. The efficiency of a fire depends on sufficient oxygen being available for combustion. We all have to do the same dance in fiddling with the vents of our cookers to get a proper fire going and maintained. If you choke off the airflow the fire burns rich and you get the dreaded thick white smoke. Not efficient at all. But c’mon, who are we fooling? We didn’t get into smoking thinking about efficiency and cooker heat rates. The overall heat efficiency of a smoker like an offset stickburner is really terrible. I would estimate under 15% at best. My Yoder Wichita weighs in at 660 pounds or so, and when I’m smoking ribs for instance the bulk of that weight has to be brought up to temperature and maintained. What’s 25 pounds of ribs compared to that? Almost statistical noise. It would be very difficult to determine the heat loss of an offset smoker through the combustion airflow, plus convection and radiation effects. A hilariously small portion of the wood’s heat energy actually goes into the meat. And be honest, how many people moderate their temps by leaving the firebox door open? That throws away what, 30% of your heat energy? Thanx Yoder (the company in Kansas, not the Jeremy in Cali😎). I am dubious that a water pan significantly affects overall cooker efficiency. A water pans acts as a heat sink that absorbs or releases heat energy depending on changes to the air/gas temp inside the cook chamber. Most of the time you’re evaporating water yes, but in times of wind gusts, precipitation or opening the door, the water pan would release heat back into the ambient environment and prevent the need to ‘fire harder’ to make up for those temp swings. That’s an efficiency savings. That’s also pretty hard to quantify. You correctly noted the amount of water present in wood as moisture, plus the effects of combustion in producing more. However, there is another potential source and that’s the meat itself. In one of your commercial brisket cooks with 25 briskets or so, you get an amount of water coming off the meat during the stall when the beef effectively ‘sweats’ out a portion of its weight. Just to make the math simple, say 25 briskets at 20 pounds each, and they all lose 1/4 of their weight during the stall. That’s 125 pounds of water in theory that you’re cooking out. How many water pans would that be? Lastly, I am not sure what you were getting at with your Gaussian diagram. At a steady-state, the cooker will have mostly consistent zones of temperature. We all have to move our meat around inside from time to time to take advantage of warmer or cooler spots. But what are you attempting to visualize? The spread of temps around a mean inside a finite volume of smoke? That doesn’t seem very useful at all. If you’re talking overall spread of temps from the firebox to the smokestack, it would be a strange situation if you were burning a fire and you were getting temps inside the cooker mostly too low to affect the meat at all. This is an elementary issue for the BBQ cook; just get a bigger fire going. If this is what you meant I guess you have a point, but it doesn’t seem consistent with your message in this video. I do agree with the use of a water pan. For small cooks like a couple rib racks it makes more of a difference than a giant commercial cook of briskets, but it’s a heat-sink backstop that makes the cook’s control of the smoker easier. Liquid water will leech heat energy out of the smoke to vaporize molecules yes, but it’s a tiny amount of leeching due to the slow process over the hours of a cook. Shouldn’t bother anyone. It is to our advantage that we have to fire harder to make up for the water pan as it allow additional airflow and less chance of choking the fire off. Cheers all!
Soft-Top Convertible Metalhead No worries, I’m not offended. It’s clear you have thought about the topic, so I want to engage meaningfully with the points you bring up. 1) As for the efficiency of the fire being unaffected by the presence of water in the cook chamber or the lack thereof, I have to disagree. The term efficiency there isn’t in relation to the amount of energy released from the fire, but it refers to the amount of energy that is absorbed by things other than the meat you are trying to cook. The water must first absorb energy to increase its temp to around 373K. Also, the enthalpy of vaporization requires quite a bit of energy. Presumably, this heat energy would not be efficiently transferred to the meat, because the entirety of the cook chamber would be above the boiling point of water. Thus the water wouldn’t condense on the meat, releasing the enthalpy of vaporization. It could obviously transfer the energy absorbed as the temp of water vapor increases beyond its boiling point, but the energy absorbed by the water molecules to increase in temperature before vaporizing and the energy absorbed in the process of vaporization would be lost (leaving with the water that exists through the stack). 2) You’re right, the goal of BBQ isn’t efficiency but we would like to make it as efficient as possible, otherwise we’re throwing away money. There is a significant financial cost involved when you drastically increase wood use. This is especially true when cooking on large smokers. As the price of a cord of wood in southern California sits around $450-600 per cord, this isn’t a trivial matter. In addition you mention that offset smokers are inefficient. Quite right, but inefficiency isn’t the goal. If it were, people would be building the thinnest smokers possible, trying to lose as much heat to the environment as they could. Finally, the energy required to bring the metal up to temperature is not going to be affected by the presence or absence of water pans. That must take place for any cook. You must also consider that the specific heat capacity of steel is much, much lower than that of water, meaning the energy required to raise its temperature is much less than for a substance like water. 3) Water would only be releasing energy back into the cook chamber if the temperature of the cook chamber has dropped below 212F. If this happens, there are serious problems with the cook that cannot be solved by the presence of water pans. I would concede, however, that the presence of a large volume of water at its boiling point can’t mitigate the problem, but I wouldn’t rely on it to keep a cook moving forward. It would only slow the reversal of the process. This is valuable only if you have made a significant mistake while cooking (e.g. falling asleep by mistake). 4) You are correct about the meat also releasing a large quantity of water during the cook. If you have ever cooked a handful of briskets in a large smoker, you know that they are always inferior to the results you achieve when cooking a full loaded smoker. I think this is largely due to the increased moisture from the evaporative cooling of the meat inside. In my smoker 25 briskets would probably sweat off the equivalent 6 water pans throughout the course of the cook. In those situations I use 2 water pans at most, because there is so much moisture in the cook chamber that water pans don’t make as much of a difference. At that point water pans are in the smoker to moderate the temperatures coming out of the firebox. 5) The graph was meant to visualize the increased risk of burning associated with higher temperature. While the average energy of the higher temperature air might be 10% higher, the portion of the gaseous molecules that could potentially burn the meat would increase significantly more than 10%. You might be 5 times as likely to burn something at 300F than you are 250F. The point of the water pan would be simply to moderate periods of high temperature that results from building a fire that is a little too big. This spares the pit master from trying to moderate temperature by cutting off air supply and producing “dirty” smoke. Also, I think you misunderstood what the graphs represent. The peak of each curve represents the temperature, that is, the average kinetic energy of the particles of a substance. At higher temperatures, the curve flattens and there is a greater distribution of energies at the extremes. It is the portion of very high energy gases present at higher temperatures that the water pans are used to moderate. 6) Finally, you mention that the amount of heat absorbed by the water is small. While that is true in a sense, representing only about 4% of the heat produced through combustion, the overall amount of heat absorbed is significant. This is especially true when you consider that the smoker is inefficient by nature. I know that the water must have absorbed the amount of energy calculated, because it all evaporates away. So, of the energy required to complete a cook, i would estimate that the water pans use somewhere between 10-15% more energy than would otherwise be required. I have tested this by weighing the amount of wood used to hold the smoker at a consistent temp for 4 hours with and without water pans. I found that the water pans increased the weight of wood used during that period by 14.7%. This is also true of the amount of wood required to run a smoker while empty vs. running it while packed full of meat. I would estimate that I use approximately double the amount of wood to cook 25 briskets when compared to running an empty smoker for the same amount of time. I would agree that there are many benefits to burning more wood, I just don’t believe it is trivial to consider how much additional cost one can incur by heating a large volume of water in the smoker. Thanks for your comment. I really appreciate you taking the time to think about the issues. I have to disagree with you of course, but hopefully we both gain more knowledge to improve our bbq skills. If there is something I missed or muffed, let me know.
@@MadScientistBBQ Ok, I have read both of your comments and I find it hilarious both of you went through all of that to disagree on so many variables; yet in the end, still promote using a water pan! Although I may disagree with many of the things both of you said. I think the key thing to take away from this is, there is an infinite number of variables to cooking great BBQ. All of which can be extremely difficult to control. This is a pitmaster's passion and his pain, yet it is what makes great BBQ. Lastly, $400-$600 for a cord of wood is absolutely bat-shit crazy! I can get top quality Oak here in TX for under$200. At this point, it is cheaper to buy it here and fly it back. Always enjoy your videos. The offer to come to my BBQ Trailer just outside Austin now extends to the both of you. I want to watch this argument in person lol
lol.. Fun watching you two Einstein's banter back and forth....lol.....but hay, I still say I want to see the Gateway drum go up against the Offset.....
@@MadScientistBBQ First off - this is the most engagement I've ever had with a TH-camr and as you can tell, the subject matter is right up my alley. :) Thanx for being cool about this. We're actually closer in alignment than you realize - I think we're getting tripped up by semantics. You say efficiency of a fire, I say overall cooker efficiency; we are talking about the same thing. Putting chemical energy in the wood into the meat. I'm not digging out my old Thermodynamics textbook; I'll trust what you've said about the enthalpy business. I hope no one mentions stoichiometric combustion! I'm still unsure about your Gaussian graphs, but I won't belabor the point. I just don't understand why the std dev. figure is larger with a higher mean temp. Does that come from experimental data? It's been 23 years since statistical classes and I'm having bad flashbacks. ;) One thing I belatedly understood - you're coming at this from a commercial perspective where your desired fuel source is very expensive. That explains your position and mine as well; I have a friend who runs a local tree service company and I can get wood from him in exchange for smoked meat credits. So I never really have to put up cash for wood and don't think about it too much. You information about the additional wood energy 'cost' of the water pans is interesting. You have the advantage over most of us as you've had some much experience with large cooks and can try different methods. That's why I subscribe. That additional cost is larger than I expected, but again, my perspective is much different. I use a smaller water pan, sort of a cheap dollar-store dog bowl shaped pan. So, let me finish up with this - which might be a future video suggestion for MadScientistBBQ. In my Yoder Wichita Loaded I do something I have never seen anyone else do. At least on TH-cam and I've looked at all the big channels. I have placed a series of firebricks inside the firebox to contain a small fire. In my experience I find that I burning smaller splits in a smaller fire surrounded on three sides by firebricks works very well and I hardly have to do anything for fire management. I do use the tuner plate and do not count on any radiation effects from the burning wood. Just from the air/smoke flow. Since you have taken the time and effort to determine % cost in fuel based on water pans, I wonder if you could determine % savings in fuel by using firebricks to keep the fire hotter and the heat energy more contained? Fire bricks are quite cheap and easy to come by and they're in a few different shapes. Something to think about. Cheers.
@@karatevideosandmore7685 I brought that up, sort of. Most of the argument is immaterial to the vast majority of viewers, who use relatively small cookers fired by charcoal; with a small amount of smoke-wood for additional flavor. I do usually use a water pan on longer cooks, at higher temps, or for fairly lean meats. Even if it isn't strictly necessary, I can't think of anything that was ever hurt by it.
Coming in a year later on this video, but love the time you took to analyze this. I've only recently started watching your videos within the last month, but you are now my go to bar-b-que guru. You put not only a lot of thought, time and effort into the art of BBQ, but you also show a lot of love and passion. I'm young and new to the world of smoking (received a WSM for my birthday this past December), but I plan to come to your channel a lot this spring and summer. Thanks again for all you do.
As a dad who has a busy schedule and desire for bbq.... I set wood on fire, keep thin smoke, when the meat looks edible.... we eat it. Works for our family! 🍻
I actually looked at this yesterday with my new pellet smoker. I always used a water pan in my Weber kettle to help maintain a constant temperature, swore by it. Being a new smoker to the collection and never having a pellet smoker before, I wanted to look at the temperature differential across the pit (a GMG Jim Bowie). It has a temp probe at one end to control the unit. I placed a water pan at the other end of the unit along with a second ambient temperature probe. Before the water pan, I had even temperatures across the pit running at 225. After adding water, that side of the pit dropped to 180 and pretty much stayed there. Sure it was a steady temperature but came at the cost of a huge temperature gradient across the pit. After a few hours, I pulled the pan and I went back to even temperatures across the whole pit, a steady 225. Even after kicking it up to 240, I was even across the pit. I have the temperature graph to back it up and in my mind, the water pan created more problems than it solved. You can clearly see when the water pan was added and then removed. I think the controllers on a pellet grill (at least a PID controlled one) are doing the work of maintaining temperature and less of a the need of a heat sink of a water pan. Maybe I could try putting the water pan directly over the fire chamber in the center, but at this point, the space it would take up does not offset the benefit. Yes, I know, using a pellet grill certainly takes a lot of the art out of mastering a fire, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
I've never tried it but a practice some people swear by is to evenly space raw biscuits across your entire cooking surface. This will tell you exactly where your hot spots are as they cook. Plus, you have a bunch of biscuits to eat as a bonus!
@@michaelcoughlin8238 I did that when I got the grill and helped me position my heat deflector better. It was pretty even across when I was done, that is why I was so shocked with the water pan results.
Just an addition as I don’t think it was mentioned, the percentages of added moisture from the water pans are only when pans that *evaporate entirely* before foiling the meat. If half your water pan remains when you wrap, the moisture % you’ve added to the cook is half the number calculated in the video.
Great video Jeremy! I have really been getting behind the science of why we do a lot of things in life, and with smoking being my passion, this was right up my alley!! Thanks again
This is a very good video, I was thinking about this subject literally the other day. Thanks for taking the time to do this . This is why I love the bbq community a lot of help and love other pit masters show others that want to learn.
The question I've been trying to answer is how does this change for a pellet smoker/grill which is essentially just a convection oven. The air is moving through quicker and the air from the outside is being pumped into it quickly and never goes across a moisture producing firebox first.
I’ve followed this channel for a few months now, but THIS is the coolest video I have seen! LOVE the empirical data and the simple explanations to go along with it! (Also a sucker for graphs)
From one chemist to another, that was a great analysis. You had me worried for a minute, but then came through with the water of combustion! I suspect that pellet grill users will get less benefit of stored water. The guy saying residual water in the metal 😂 My daughter’s HS chem teacher told her class that clouds are steam😡 Love your channel. Say Hi to Randy if you see him.
Bruce Hansel Hi thanks! Yeah I believe that pellet grill users don’t get much smoke flavor because pyrolysis liberates gases too quickly to get efficient secondary combustion. I’ll be exploring that further in a wood science video.
RE: Pellet Grills - I use low profile disposable (aluminum) brownie pans between the grill grate and the drip tray. The taller style of pan do not fit. I usually position them over the hottest part of my pellet grill (usually opposite of pellet hopper). Plus this helps to catch the drippings, which helps with keeping your pellet grill clean (especially important when smoking a large brisket). This works pretty well. I usually have to fill the pan(s) twice when cooking a brisket.
15 years of green egg/ lump Charcoal with a little green hickory... I've concluded from experience a large water pan directly under my BBQ. Makes my cook times shorter , makes better bbq, makes the temp easier to regulate and catches grease and keeps my grill cleaner. Thank you for your video
I came across this recently. I use a vertical smoker and burn lump charcoal and wood chunks for smoke. My smoker has a sizable water pan in it, and I always wondered if it was overkill. What you showed in your chemistry equation helped me make sense. Since I'm using the much dryer lump charcoal, the water pan is more necessary in my smoker (a Backwoods Chubby G2).
For me I like all the technical theory, however I’ve noticed that when I use a water pan in my smoker it causes me to cook longer in order to achieve the color and bark I’m looking for. I also power cook my briskets in roughly 4 hours or so and then rest in a cooler. Pork butts are my longest cook but it’s only exposed for 3 hours or so to smoke. In these cases for the average everyday backyard cook, does a water pan make that big a difference? IMO no. Low and slow doesn’t need one IMO either as things don’t tend to dry out as bad at low temps. If you’re mopping your meat as I do especially with a butter base then things are good as well. Also if you inject your adding moisture. High heat cooks I could see using a water pan but I don’t feel as if it’s necessary. Spritz, Mop and Wrap and you’ll be just fine. IMO
Great video. I am a chemist and physicist working as an engineer, so I guess that makes me triple Mad 😁. My favorite part was when you said “That wouldn’t be smoking at all WOOD it”.
I have another variable that I think might need to be addressed. Correct me if I'm wrong.... I'll try to spell out my question. A water pan will increase moisture through evaporation, but moisture content in the heated smoky air flowing over the meat is greatly effected by the volume of air you're pushing. As you've said in other videos, airflow is what makes an offset smoker yield more flavorful meat, and what you've said in this video, much heat and moisture are lost to the stack. In the case of this example, more airflow would mean lost through the stack, which would seem to lessen the effect of added water- there would be a smaller change in the humidity of the cook chamber and less moisture interacting with the meat. There could be some balance point where the hotter fire to overcome the loss of energy to the water pan increases the airflow so that there is no net gain.
What about water trays in a pellet smoker? The pellets are obviously compressed and probably don't have the same amount of moisture as regular wood. Also pellet grills burn way more efficiently. Completely different variables, so I imagine you would come to a completely different result. But I also know that you prefer stick burners, so this video makes more sense. Thanks for the info! Keep up the great work! Love your vids.
Man I was glad you talked about complete vs incomplete combustion 🙂. Another noteworthy benefit of water pans in smaller smokers is temperature stabilization. I use a weber kettle and the grill itself doesn't retain or reradiate a substantial amount of heat like kamado cookers or heavy gauge steel smokers. The water pan is a stable heat sink which reduces the extent of temperature swings when you open the lid. That goes back to your comment about the pans making the chamber ideal weather for bbq. Cheers.
I just wanted to smoke some chicken wings and I ended up with a headache.. lmao! Great video but honestly my math level is not this high neither is my bbq 😬 I’ll just microwave some hot pockets and call it a day 👍🏼
Love this channel. I smoked my first brisket last week and I'm smoking a pork butt today. I've learned so much from your videos and my friends, my wife and I all thank you for helping me make a tastier smoked meat!
Nice video Jeremy, thanks! One other reason for using a water pan is of course as a temperature buffer. Yes, there's a certain cost to heating up the water in the first place, but once it is up to temp, it will help stabilize temps in the smoker a bit. Whether that is noticable or not depends of course on the construction of the offset smoker (thickness of steel et.c.), as well a size. Either way I'm with you, I think using a water pan in an offset is a necessity. Have a great weekend!
Yes use a water pan. It acts as a heat sink so makes it easier to control temp in a kettle grill like a weber. # 2: Not only does it help keep your meat moist, but moist meat absorbs smoke better. Win/Win
My uncle has a bbq joint and he recommends just using a pan of playground sand to add mass for keeping consistent temps. Same concept as using a stone in the oven when baking.
awesome explanation.. i use the smaller off set smokers in my business (Smoking Shells BBQ and Catering)..spritzing is alot less needed and still get amazing bark ..but still have fire management and seeing what your protein is doing..again awesome explanation
Science! I prefer running a waterpan knowing it added moisture and absorbed that extra energy ( helping regulate temp) but you did a great job breaking down the whole thing- even this non science guy can understand better.
I bought a Lodge bread pan and seasoned it. I then use that in my Yoder YS640 smoker and it makes a big difference. Typically, the water needs to be refilled about halfway to get through an entire briscuit cook and I do that when I come out to check the meat and bring a tall glass and fill it up. I highly recommend it if you are looking for something perfect to use to hold water on your smoker. Again, you must season it because it will rust due to the water.
Great analysis. One other benefit, and I understand that this was beyond the scope of this video, is that having the water pan directly below the meat (which I do on my PK and my Kettle) means making less of a mess by catching what drips off the meat.
Now I am thoroughly confused. But when I use a water pan in my smoker, the temps seem to be more stable. So, I will continue to use a water pan in the smoker.
I do all my BBQ on a Weber Kettle grill. Unless I'm making jerky I always have a water pan full and sitting on the lower grate next to the charcoal. My meat sits up above the water. I use a 13x9 cake pan on the bottom grate. It has lots of surface area, and also a decent volume of water for the cook chamber. In experience I have noticed that in addition to help keep more moisture in the BBQ, it also helps stabilize the temperature (which is important in such a small bbq). I noticed bigger the water pan and there water I used the more even my temps stayed. It also recovered quicker when opening the lid to check on things. The water in the pan acts as a heat sink. It absorbs a certain amount of heat which helps slow down the rise Ina cooking temp if the coals start getting hotter. It also can give off heat as the coals cool down to slow the decrease in cooking temp. As you mentioned the liquid water in the water pan will never get above 212 F (it is at atmospheric pressure so it's boiling point is 100 C or 212 F). Having this big pan of 212 F water right below the meat helps provide a moist gentle heat to the meat while the rest of the convection and radiative meat from the coals and airflow bounce around the cook chamber and end up in the sides and top of the meat. In my Weber Kettle grill the 13 X 9 cake pan is the largest water pan incan fit on the lower grate and still have a decent amount of room to load up with charcoal. With about 1/3 of the charcoal lit and 2/3 unlit, full pan of water, top vent half open, and bottom vent about 1/4 open I can maintain a cooking temp of about 215 F to 260 F for at least 3 hrs (sometimes 4 hrs if it isn't really cold or windy out) before having to add more charcoal. I've got it down pretty well there. I do have limitations on the amount of cooking space (only about 2/3 of the upper rack is in the indirect area, the other 1/3 is right above the coals), and I do have to adjust the bottom vent every now and then. More often when dialing in the airflow and temp, but once it's set it.might go an hour before needing to be adjusted again. I am hoping to upgrade to a vertical 55 gal drum smoker in the near future. I would love a nice offset smoker but I just don't have the money or cook enough to justify it.
I’ve never used a water pan and for 30+ years have turned out some great meats and briskets. But...I’m going to add one the next time I cook just to see if I can tell the difference.. But I have to tell you rhat watching this video reminded me a lot of my high school chemistry classes. Yep, I had a headache when the bell finally rang...
Brilliant! That made a lot of sense, never would have thought about BBQ this way but it really helps conceptualize what is happening in the chamber. Thanks!
I built a reverse flow offset smoker and definately need the water pans mostly for a barrier between the food and the directly heated floor that the pans sit on. Im always looking for better ways to design my next one. Thanks for your knowledge on smoking and smokers.
On cheap barrel smokers the water pan is a most when cooking at higher temps, it difuses the heat catches all the grease and also helps to keep the temp in check.
Thanks for the video, much appreciated. I'm not sure I agree completely with your information regarding fire (10+ years experience as an arson investigator, I know a little about fire) but I'm not going to go into that right now. To me, the most important thing about your video is to get people thinking about more than just the meat. I am a huge proponent in getting the theory before practical experience. I've never really thought much about the humidity level inside the smoker and whether that would have an effect on the finished product. I will most definitely be using a water pan for my next brisket to try it out. I appreciate the information you have given regarding selection of the proper meats, rubs (I am going to develop my own for my next brisket), materials and methods behind construction of the smoker, rest times, etc. One thing I can't argue with is your methods produce a quality product!! I enjoy your videos, very informative!!
Great job mad scientist. I really like the idea of an in depth explanation as to why cooks are so different and the thoughts behind different ways of cooking. I’ll keep watching if you keep them coming.
Man I love these kind of videos. Great info! I use a cast iron Dutch oven in my offset smoker. Never thought too deeply into the science, but I can tell you from experience that it keeps the temperature much more consistent. My smoker isn't very high quality and burning wood can sometimes get the temp over 400 degrees. With a water pan I can much more easily maintain a consistent temp and also a clean burning fire.
I'm not sure why this works, but it does. When my water pan is empty, my thermapen goes off to some crazy temp and I going running over to my smoker and realize that's the issue!
i got one for you to try. Smoke a brisket like you do regular. the when you wrap instead of paper get an aluminum pan with talo at the bottom that you smoked, lay the brisket in it then poke holes on another pan and use metal spring clips to secure it to the other one and finish smoking.
Im not very good at all the science behind smoking food. I seriously use a Charbroil Gas2Coal 3 burner grill. I started by using one burner and a smoker box with pellets. I have moved to using charcoal with a water pan under the food. You just made my day. I was using 2 6" deep by 3" wide by 5" long foil pans for water. My theory was to use those 2 pans in beetween the heat source and the food to moisturize the grill. I know gas grills arent good for smoking because they dont seal but this is all I have to work with until I save up for a smoker. But I switched to a baking sheet that is 1" deep by 10" wide by 14" long. I did Iowa Chops with hickory chunks right on the coals and the pan under the chops about 4 inches down. Before the baking sheet with water my chops were still turning out kind of dry. Decent smoke but still dry. These were honestly perfect for my level of smoking. I know others are going to do a better job with dedicated smokers but I am proud that the pan worked so much better then the deep foil pans. Let me know if you have any suggestions for me on my method. Again I know its not perfect...lol
Wow, just getting into smoking, but I have some questions about your analysis. First, don't water molecules bond to smoke molecules? If they do, then by increasing the number of water molecules in the smoke chamber, you're effectively removing smoke from your chamber. Of course, a small percentage will still adhere to the meat, but the rest will bond with the smoke and either condense into drippings or escape through the vents. This seems to me that NOT using a water pan would increase the smokey flavor of your meat. Put it another way, with more smoke molecules adhering to the meat, then as long as you reach your desired cook temp, your cook time would be shorter. Or if cooking for the same amount of time, your meat would taste smokier (is smokier even a word?). In any event, I would expect the smoke ring to be substantially less if you add a water pan. I've seen other videos that confirm this hypothesis, but I haven't done any experiments myself yet.
Something I can’t find mention of…. By increasing humidity in the cook chamber you somewhat shift your equilibrium toward condensation vs evaporation on unwrapped meat. This should help overcome the “stall” caused by the cooling effect of water evaporating from the meat countering the heating from the cook chamber. I think it just drives the stall point higher, but it does affect it.
Can I also add, that I firmly believe that when steel is cold it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere and when heated the moisture is released. Hence why before we weld thick steel we have to heat it to at least 100 degrees Celsius.
Love your channel Jeremy. Your fire management videos took my bbq to the next level. I always use a water pan to keep even temps and keep moisture in my meat and now I know the science behind it. Thanks.
I have a 15" diameter electric Brinkman trashcan style smoker. It has a 1500 watt electric element at the bottom. It puts out a lot of heat. The smoker is only 4' tall and without a water pan the internal temperature at the top of the smoker is 500F. The water pan is between the electric element and the grill at the top. It works like a heat sink. With a water pan the temperature at the top drops to 250-300F depending on outside factors like outside temperature and additional insulation around the smoker. It's made from thing sheet metal so a good breeze will suck all the heat out. So I've put a 55 gal barrel around the smoker to act as a wind break giving me about 3" of dead air space around the outside of the smoker and when I add a lid to the barrel I can control the heat better. Also there is no water from the electric element so it's a very hot dry heat.
The primary contribution of water (vapor) is to the stability of temperature. The specific heat of water is high which is why it helps stabilize the temperature. Specific heat is the measure of the amount of energy required to raised the temperature.
Cool. I just prepped my first brisket. Smoking overnight 8 hrs at 180 degrees, then I will crank it to 225 in the AM, and will cook uncovered until done. I will then rest in a small cooker @ 140 until supper (about 6 pm). So about 19 hrs from start to finish. I started with a 13 lb prime brisket and trimmed a breadpan worth of trimmings that are in the smoker. I did a shit job trimming. Next time I will be prepared with a sharper knife. Lol. There is also a breadpan full of water in there, because I saw people on TH-cam using them and it made sense to me. (and now I know that was a legit idea). I’m stoked to have TH-cam to learn so much about things like this 👍
Thank you very much for the video and the work put into it. I really appreciate the scientific explanation as I always approach any cook scientifically to increase consistency in the end results every time, rather than do this and that happens by feel or smell or touch. The best part of this kind of approach is that it helps without depending on a particular set up. We all get something relevant upon which we can improve our own cooks. Thanks again, and I am waiting for more of this kind:). Edit: I would love to see an explanation on how moisture in the cook chamber changes the cooking process.I have a general idea but would love an in depth analysis.
this is great breakdown- but very specific to your smoker/setup. consider pointing out the difference between a ceramic/kamado style and a non insulated metal cooker. the need for moisture to be added changes significantly based on the cooker!! Also as stated this can help people understand the benefit of a pellet smoker as well
we like tradition so we use wood as out heat source it's an art to be mastered unlike a pellet smoker which is no more than an outdoor oven, set and forget it. it's all about the whole process to us pit masters. You'll never get the real smoke taste with a pellet smoker as you do with an offset.
Love your stuff. Can I get a request in there? You talk about stick burners and pallet burners, what about doing stuff on egg BBQs. I run an Acorn and would like to see what the difference between the former and latter BBQ types are.
Great video Jeremy. When I built smoker I made it with a water pan (about 20 gallons) mainly for easy clean up, open the valve and out comes the water and grease. I know it adds moisture to the cook chamber, but to the food? I don't know. I've had really juicy cooks with and without water. You would've been one of the teachers I would've listened to in school. I have a question for you, my cook chamber is 24x48 how do I figure out how many gallons that is? Keep up the great work my friend.
been using shallow water pans in my weber grill for years i rerely use just water, depending on what i am cooking i use water with apple, pinapple, orange, juice, wine, cidar etc. i find they all add a tad bit more flavour to your food. the only thing i find is if i forget to top up they can dry up and caramalise the sugars, i am maticulous to top up these days. good vid shows the science as to why we add moisture to the cooking process, i love grilling/bbq ing i do it often all year round including xmas day. my home made beef brisket, lamb leg and porchetta is to die for.
Excellent analysis, unfortunately it means very little for me because I'm using lump charcoal in a cabinet smoker. I've done cooks with and without a water pan and the water pan definitely produces better bbq. Keep doing science!
Great video Jeremy ! You remind a little of Alton Brown from the science prospective! I have the Primo XL grill. I did my first cook and used a water pan . I was wondering what size pan, now I could have checked the one I used but alas I didn't . Also when I put my water in the pan I added some barbeque sauce for favor .
I use 2 pans, 1 full of a 50/50 apple cider/apple juice mix, the other with a dark beer depending on what meats I am smoking. I GUARANTEE you they absolutely have an affect on the moisture being produced inside the smoker, the temp staying stable, and it affects the flavor. Steam is produced from those pans and rises to the racks and that steam has an aroma which penetrates the meats. I'll never stop doing my smoking that way because it works.
I love your videos man. Your information has helped me get better at making brisket, ribs, and pulled pork. Keep them coming man much love for your passion✊
One of the biggest benefits with a water pan is leveling out temp fluctuations, especially in a pellet grill, but actually any wood/charcoal setup. keeps it stable.
Very interesting video. How much do the variables change if using a pellet smoker as opposed to a stick burner? I am assuming that pellets being kiln dried probably contain less water than tradition wood. Would the recommendation of water pans hold true in a pellet grill?
So as an arborist, wood sculptor, furniture maker my question is how wet do you like your smoking timber. Green wood is typically around 20 percent. Dry wood is between 4 and pick your number. So my real question is… are my smoking woods too dry?
I put water in the drip pan under my meat. Keeps the oils and sugars in the drippings from burning and turning black, also evaporates so, moisture right below the meat.
I don't have the numbers right at hand but from structural firefighting days the energy to convert water at 100 C to steam is much greater than the energy to raise the water to 100 C. Firefighters working on a structure fire put water on a fire not to soak it and put it out but because the conversion of water to steam soaks up so much of the fires energy (the water vapor also displaces the O2 in the room which starves the fire). Still makes sense to use a water pan. Interesting experiment would be to cook a brisket with water pan and another brisket without a water pan and see if there is any discernable difference. I usually just use a spray bottle of water and apple cider vinegar to keep the meat moist if needed.
Please don’t take this the wrong way as I have watched all your content and am a fan. I do appreciate this video but as a fellow technical-minded BBQ cook (M. Eng) I have a few reservations. Your statements about the efficiency of a fire being affected by the presence of the water pan are erroneous. The efficiency of a wood-burning fire is not affected by anything in the cook chamber. The efficiency of a fire depends on sufficient oxygen being available for combustion. We all have to do the same dance in fiddling with the vents of our cookers to get a proper fire going and maintained. If you choke off the airflow the fire burns rich and you get the dreaded thick white smoke. Not efficient at all.
But c’mon, who are we fooling? We didn’t get into smoking thinking about efficiency and cooker heat rates. The overall heat efficiency of a smoker like an offset stickburner is really terrible. I would estimate under 15% at best. My Yoder Wichita weighs in at 660 pounds or so, and when I’m smoking ribs for instance the bulk of that weight has to be brought up to temperature and maintained. What’s 25 pounds of ribs compared to that? Almost statistical noise. It would be very difficult to determine the heat loss of an offset smoker through the combustion airflow, plus convection and radiation effects. A hilariously small portion of the wood’s heat energy actually goes into the meat. And be honest, how many people moderate their temps by leaving the firebox door open? That throws away what, 30% of your heat energy? Thanx Yoder (the company in Kansas, not the Jeremy in Cali😎).
I am dubious that a water pan significantly affects overall cooker efficiency. A water pans acts as a heat sink that absorbs or releases heat energy depending on changes to the air/gas temp inside the cook chamber. Most of the time you’re evaporating water yes, but in times of wind gusts, precipitation or opening the door, the water pan would release heat back into the ambient environment and prevent the need to ‘fire harder’ to make up for those temp swings. That’s an efficiency savings. That’s also pretty hard to quantify.
You correctly noted the amount of water present in wood as moisture, plus the effects of combustion in producing more. However, there is another potential source and that’s the meat itself. In one of your commercial brisket cooks with 25 briskets or so, you get an amount of water coming off the meat during the stall when the beef effectively ‘sweats’ out a portion of its weight. Just to make the math simple, say 25 briskets at 20 pounds each, and they all lose 1/4 of their weight during the stall. That’s 125 pounds of water in theory that you’re cooking out. How many water pans would that be?
Lastly, I am not sure what you were getting at with your Gaussian diagram. At a steady-state, the cooker will have mostly consistent zones of temperature. We all have to move our meat around inside from time to time to take advantage of warmer or cooler spots. But what are you attempting to visualize? The spread of temps around a mean inside a finite volume of smoke? That doesn’t seem very useful at all.
If you’re talking overall spread of temps from the firebox to the smokestack, it would be a strange situation if you were burning a fire and you were getting temps inside the cooker mostly too low to affect the meat at all. This is an elementary issue for the BBQ cook; just get a bigger fire going. If this is what you meant I guess you have a point, but it doesn’t seem consistent with your message in this video.
I do agree with the use of a water pan. For small cooks like a couple rib racks it makes more of a difference than a giant commercial cook of briskets, but it’s a heat-sink backstop that makes the cook’s control of the smoker easier. Liquid water will leech heat energy out of the smoke to vaporize molecules yes, but it’s a tiny amount of leeching due to the slow process over the hours of a cook. Shouldn’t bother anyone. It is to our advantage that we have to fire harder to make up for the water pan as it allow additional airflow and less chance of choking the fire off. Cheers all!
Soft-Top Convertible Metalhead
No worries, I’m not offended. It’s clear you have thought about the topic, so I want to engage meaningfully with the points you bring up.
1) As for the efficiency of the fire being unaffected by the presence of water in the cook chamber or the lack thereof, I have to disagree. The term efficiency there isn’t in relation to the amount of energy released from the fire, but it refers to the amount of energy that is absorbed by things other than the meat you are trying to cook. The water must first absorb energy to increase its temp to around 373K. Also, the enthalpy of vaporization requires quite a bit of energy. Presumably, this heat energy would not be efficiently transferred to the meat, because the entirety of the cook chamber would be above the boiling point of water. Thus the water wouldn’t condense on the meat, releasing the enthalpy of vaporization. It could obviously transfer the energy absorbed as the temp of water vapor increases beyond its boiling point, but the energy absorbed by the water molecules to increase in temperature before vaporizing and the energy absorbed in the process of vaporization would be lost (leaving with the water that exists through the stack).
2) You’re right, the goal of BBQ isn’t efficiency but we would like to make it as efficient as possible, otherwise we’re throwing away money. There is a significant financial cost involved when you drastically increase wood use. This is especially true when cooking on large smokers. As the price of a cord of wood in southern California sits around $450-600 per cord, this isn’t a trivial matter. In addition you mention that offset smokers are inefficient. Quite right, but inefficiency isn’t the goal. If it were, people would be building the thinnest smokers possible, trying to lose as much heat to the environment as they could. Finally, the energy required to bring the metal up to temperature is not going to be affected by the presence or absence of water pans. That must take place for any cook. You must also consider that the specific heat capacity of steel is much, much lower than that of water, meaning the energy required to raise its temperature is much less than for a substance like water.
3) Water would only be releasing energy back into the cook chamber if the temperature of the cook chamber has dropped below 212F. If this happens, there are serious problems with the cook that cannot be solved by the presence of water pans. I would concede, however, that the presence of a large volume of water at its boiling point can’t mitigate the problem, but I wouldn’t rely on it to keep a cook moving forward. It would only slow the reversal of the process. This is valuable only if you have made a significant mistake while cooking (e.g. falling asleep by mistake).
4) You are correct about the meat also releasing a large quantity of water during the cook. If you have ever cooked a handful of briskets in a large smoker, you know that they are always inferior to the results you achieve when cooking a full loaded smoker. I think this is largely due to the increased moisture from the evaporative cooling of the meat inside. In my smoker 25 briskets would probably sweat off the equivalent 6 water pans throughout the course of the cook. In those situations I use 2 water pans at most, because there is so much moisture in the cook chamber that water pans don’t make as much of a difference. At that point water pans are in the smoker to moderate the temperatures coming out of the firebox.
5) The graph was meant to visualize the increased risk of burning associated with higher temperature. While the average energy of the higher temperature air might be 10% higher, the portion of the gaseous molecules that could potentially burn the meat would increase significantly more than 10%. You might be 5 times as likely to burn something at 300F than you are 250F. The point of the water pan would be simply to moderate periods of high temperature that results from building a fire that is a little too big. This spares the pit master from trying to moderate temperature by cutting off air supply and producing “dirty” smoke. Also, I think you misunderstood what the graphs represent. The peak of each curve represents the temperature, that is, the average kinetic energy of the particles of a substance. At higher temperatures, the curve flattens and there is a greater distribution of energies at the extremes. It is the portion of very high energy gases present at higher temperatures that the water pans are used to moderate.
6) Finally, you mention that the amount of heat absorbed by the water is small. While that is true in a sense, representing only about 4% of the heat produced through combustion, the overall amount of heat absorbed is significant. This is especially true when you consider that the smoker is inefficient by nature. I know that the water must have absorbed the amount of energy calculated, because it all evaporates away. So, of the energy required to complete a cook, i would estimate that the water pans use somewhere between 10-15% more energy than would otherwise be required. I have tested this by weighing the amount of wood used to hold the smoker at a consistent temp for 4 hours with and without water pans. I found that the water pans increased the weight of wood used during that period by 14.7%. This is also true of the amount of wood required to run a smoker while empty vs. running it while packed full of meat. I would estimate that I use approximately double the amount of wood to cook 25 briskets when compared to running an empty smoker for the same amount of time. I would agree that there are many benefits to burning more wood, I just don’t believe it is trivial to consider how much additional cost one can incur by heating a large volume of water in the smoker. Thanks for your comment. I really appreciate you taking the time to think about the issues. I have to disagree with you of course, but hopefully we both gain more knowledge to improve our bbq skills. If there is something I missed or muffed, let me know.
@@MadScientistBBQ Ok, I have read both of your comments and I find it hilarious both of you went through all of that to disagree on so many variables; yet in the end, still promote using a water pan! Although I may disagree with many of the things both of you said. I think the key thing to take away from this is, there is an infinite number of variables to cooking great BBQ. All of which can be extremely difficult to control. This is a pitmaster's passion and his pain, yet it is what makes great BBQ. Lastly, $400-$600 for a cord of wood is absolutely bat-shit crazy! I can get top quality Oak here in TX for under$200. At this point, it is cheaper to buy it here and fly it back. Always enjoy your videos. The offer to come to my BBQ Trailer just outside Austin now extends to the both of you. I want to watch this argument in person lol
lol..
Fun watching you two Einstein's banter back and forth....lol.....but hay, I still say I want to see the Gateway drum go up against the Offset.....
@@MadScientistBBQ First off - this is the most engagement I've ever had with a TH-camr and as you can tell, the subject matter is right up my alley. :) Thanx for being cool about this.
We're actually closer in alignment than you realize - I think we're getting tripped up by semantics. You say efficiency of a fire, I say overall cooker efficiency; we are talking about the same thing. Putting chemical energy in the wood into the meat. I'm not digging out my old Thermodynamics textbook; I'll trust what you've said about the enthalpy business. I hope no one mentions stoichiometric combustion!
I'm still unsure about your Gaussian graphs, but I won't belabor the point. I just don't understand why the std dev. figure is larger with a higher mean temp. Does that come from experimental data? It's been 23 years since statistical classes and I'm having bad flashbacks. ;)
One thing I belatedly understood - you're coming at this from a commercial perspective where your desired fuel source is very expensive. That explains your position and mine as well; I have a friend who runs a local tree service company and I can get wood from him in exchange for smoked meat credits. So I never really have to put up cash for wood and don't think about it too much.
You information about the additional wood energy 'cost' of the water pans is interesting. You have the advantage over most of us as you've had some much experience with large cooks and can try different methods. That's why I subscribe. That additional cost is larger than I expected, but again, my perspective is much different. I use a smaller water pan, sort of a cheap dollar-store dog bowl shaped pan.
So, let me finish up with this - which might be a future video suggestion for MadScientistBBQ. In my Yoder Wichita Loaded I do something I have never seen anyone else do. At least on TH-cam and I've looked at all the big channels. I have placed a series of firebricks inside the firebox to contain a small fire. In my experience I find that I burning smaller splits in a smaller fire surrounded on three sides by firebricks works very well and I hardly have to do anything for fire management. I do use the tuner plate and do not count on any radiation effects from the burning wood. Just from the air/smoke flow.
Since you have taken the time and effort to determine % cost in fuel based on water pans, I wonder if you could determine % savings in fuel by using firebricks to keep the fire hotter and the heat energy more contained? Fire bricks are quite cheap and easy to come by and they're in a few different shapes. Something to think about. Cheers.
@@karatevideosandmore7685 I brought that up, sort of. Most of the argument is immaterial to the vast majority of viewers, who use relatively small cookers fired by charcoal; with a small amount of smoke-wood for additional flavor. I do usually use a water pan on longer cooks, at higher temps, or for fairly lean meats. Even if it isn't strictly necessary, I can't think of anything that was ever hurt by it.
Coming in a year later on this video, but love the time you took to analyze this. I've only recently started watching your videos within the last month, but you are now my go to bar-b-que guru. You put not only a lot of thought, time and effort into the art of BBQ, but you also show a lot of love and passion. I'm young and new to the world of smoking (received a WSM for my birthday this past December), but I plan to come to your channel a lot this spring and summer. Thanks again for all you do.
Man I'm so happy that there's someone like you in BBQ. I love learning this kind of stuff.
Love the in-depth geeking out on Q.
12:50, you're welcome. Bummed you didn't talk about entropy and enthalpy :)
Thank you! After a minute, I figured the answer would be in the comments.
thank you
Thanks!!
MVP
I owe you a 🍺
As a dad who has a busy schedule and desire for bbq.... I set wood on fire, keep thin smoke, when the meat looks edible.... we eat it. Works for our family! 🍻
Conclusion at 12:20
Thank you.
After all the explanations. I was like.. what was the question again lol
I actually looked at this yesterday with my new pellet smoker. I always used a water pan in my Weber kettle to help maintain a constant temperature, swore by it. Being a new smoker to the collection and never having a pellet smoker before, I wanted to look at the temperature differential across the pit (a GMG Jim Bowie). It has a temp probe at one end to control the unit. I placed a water pan at the other end of the unit along with a second ambient temperature probe. Before the water pan, I had even temperatures across the pit running at 225. After adding water, that side of the pit dropped to 180 and pretty much stayed there. Sure it was a steady temperature but came at the cost of a huge temperature gradient across the pit. After a few hours, I pulled the pan and I went back to even temperatures across the whole pit, a steady 225. Even after kicking it up to 240, I was even across the pit. I have the temperature graph to back it up and in my mind, the water pan created more problems than it solved. You can clearly see when the water pan was added and then removed.
I think the controllers on a pellet grill (at least a PID controlled one) are doing the work of maintaining temperature and less of a the need of a heat sink of a water pan. Maybe I could try putting the water pan directly over the fire chamber in the center, but at this point, the space it would take up does not offset the benefit.
Yes, I know, using a pellet grill certainly takes a lot of the art out of mastering a fire, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Just got my first pellet grill (Traeger) and this is exactly what I needed to read.
Try filling your water pan with sand instead of water. same result, with no temperature swings.
I've never tried it but a practice some people swear by is to evenly space raw biscuits across your entire cooking surface. This will tell you exactly where your hot spots are as they cook. Plus, you have a bunch of biscuits to eat as a bonus!
@@michaelcoughlin8238 I did that when I got the grill and helped me position my heat deflector better. It was pretty even across when I was done, that is why I was so shocked with the water pan results.
Wow, I wish I could understand most of what you guys said? We need the discussion quick and explained to Backyard BBQrs, like us.
Just an addition as I don’t think it was mentioned, the percentages of added moisture from the water pans are only when pans that *evaporate entirely* before foiling the meat. If half your water pan remains when you wrap, the moisture % you’ve added to the cook is half the number calculated in the video.
That would not apply to a butcher paper wrap to the same extent I would imagine.
Glad someone like you provide a great video to show the science in the burning chamber, it helps me a lot! Appreciate. From a rookie pit boy in China.
Great video Jeremy! I have really been getting behind the science of why we do a lot of things in life, and with smoking being my passion, this was right up my alley!! Thanks again
Jeremy is the best. I always learn something watching these videos.
The offer of remote tutoring for people's kids is the next level.
Hats off bro
"Yes" was also a perfectly acceptable answer.
Indeed. But I love science and loved the explanation.
'Yes' is a perfectly acceptable answer like 'select' is a perfectly acceptable grade of meat.
Habitt5253 lies
@@Schedule1ne315 precisely.
It says "Scientific Analysis" right in the title. A simple "yes" would hardly be a scientific analysis.
I've never related barbeque to chemistry before, but you've opened my eyes to it. Great video!
Finally! 4 years of college chemistry means something to me!! Thank you!!
This is a very good video, I was thinking about this subject literally the other day. Thanks for taking the time to do this . This is why I love the bbq community a lot of help and love other pit masters show others that want to learn.
The question I've been trying to answer is how does this change for a pellet smoker/grill which is essentially just a convection oven. The air is moving through quicker and the air from the outside is being pumped into it quickly and never goes across a moisture producing firebox first.
put a small water pan next to the auger - it will work just fine
@@unclealzbbq2185 you genius
I’ve followed this channel for a few months now, but THIS is the coolest video I have seen! LOVE the empirical data and the simple explanations to go along with it! (Also a sucker for graphs)
Me: how do I barbecue??
JEREMY: watch this video it’s super easy to understand. May the force be with you
Pop quiz tomorrow.
Thanks for this. Its nice to have the science to back up (or negate) my opinions on what "works" and why when using my smokers. Very well executed.
From one chemist to another, that was a great analysis. You had me worried for a minute, but then came through with the water of combustion! I suspect that pellet grill users will get less benefit of stored water. The guy saying residual water in the metal 😂 My daughter’s HS chem teacher told her class that clouds are steam😡 Love your channel. Say Hi to Randy if you see him.
Bruce Hansel
Hi thanks! Yeah I believe that pellet grill users don’t get much smoke flavor because pyrolysis liberates gases too quickly to get efficient secondary combustion. I’ll be exploring that further in a wood science video.
My kids had an elementary teacher tell them tornadoes came out of the ground. Sometimes I fear for future generations.
RE: Pellet Grills - I use low profile disposable (aluminum) brownie pans between the grill grate and the drip tray. The taller style of pan do not fit. I usually position them over the hottest part of my pellet grill (usually opposite of pellet hopper). Plus this helps to catch the drippings, which helps with keeping your pellet grill clean (especially important when smoking a large brisket). This works pretty well. I usually have to fill the pan(s) twice when cooking a brisket.
15 years of green egg/ lump Charcoal with a little green hickory... I've concluded from experience a large water pan directly under my BBQ. Makes my cook times shorter , makes better bbq, makes the temp easier to regulate and catches grease and keeps my grill cleaner. Thank you for your video
Awesome! Love that you’re getting back to the Mad Scientist basics!! 👍🏼
I came across this recently. I use a vertical smoker and burn lump charcoal and wood chunks for smoke. My smoker has a sizable water pan in it, and I always wondered if it was overkill. What you showed in your chemistry equation helped me make sense. Since I'm using the much dryer lump charcoal, the water pan is more necessary in my smoker (a Backwoods Chubby G2).
For me I like all the technical theory, however I’ve noticed that when I use a water pan in my smoker it causes me to cook longer in order to achieve the color and bark I’m looking for. I also power cook my briskets in roughly 4 hours or so and then rest in a cooler. Pork butts are my longest cook but it’s only exposed for 3 hours or so to smoke. In these cases for the average everyday backyard cook, does a water pan make that big a difference? IMO no. Low and slow doesn’t need one IMO either as things don’t tend to dry out as bad at low temps. If you’re mopping your meat as I do especially with a butter base then things are good as well. Also if you inject your adding moisture. High heat cooks I could see using a water pan but I don’t feel as if it’s necessary. Spritz, Mop and Wrap and you’ll be just fine. IMO
Great video. I am a chemist and physicist working as an engineer, so I guess that makes me triple Mad 😁. My favorite part was when you said “That wouldn’t be smoking at all WOOD it”.
Mad Scientist BBQ: Math (and Science)!
My Brain: *_AOL Sign On/Dial up sound effect_*
Great video. Just showed up in my feed. I feel like youtube should have recommended this to me sooner.. I watch pretty regularly. Love your work!!
If my daughter was still school aged,, I’d talk to you about tutoring her ASAP, but she’s 30 now.
I believe he will still do it 😂;)
I mean, you could marry your daughter off to him and get delicious bbq delivered every week.
@@richardnguyen1520 I’m pretty sure he’s already married with a small child. Besides, I’m pretty good on my off set smoker.
I have another variable that I think might need to be addressed. Correct me if I'm wrong.... I'll try to spell out my question. A water pan will increase moisture through evaporation, but moisture content in the heated smoky air flowing over the meat is greatly effected by the volume of air you're pushing. As you've said in other videos, airflow is what makes an offset smoker yield more flavorful meat, and what you've said in this video, much heat and moisture are lost to the stack. In the case of this example, more airflow would mean lost through the stack, which would seem to lessen the effect of added water- there would be a smaller change in the humidity of the cook chamber and less moisture interacting with the meat. There could be some balance point where the hotter fire to overcome the loss of energy to the water pan increases the airflow so that there is no net gain.
I went to the last 2 minutes to get the answer, and I’m so glad I did. Appreciate the vid and the passion tho.
me too...LOL
Yup. A simple yes or no will do.
I would like to see this explained using charcoal instead of wood. Very well done, I love this approach, to me the "why" is as important as the "how".
What about water trays in a pellet smoker? The pellets are obviously compressed and probably don't have the same amount of moisture as regular wood. Also pellet grills burn way more efficiently. Completely different variables, so I imagine you would come to a completely different result. But I also know that you prefer stick burners, so this video makes more sense. Thanks for the info! Keep up the great work! Love your vids.
This is a similar reason why I put lava rock in my offset. They really do help with temperature control.
Explain more please sir
I hate math, but I love BBQ. Best part of this video is Jeremy's "lab coat" for this chemistry lesson. 😎
Man I was glad you talked about complete vs incomplete combustion 🙂.
Another noteworthy benefit of water pans in smaller smokers is temperature stabilization. I use a weber kettle and the grill itself doesn't retain or reradiate a substantial amount of heat like kamado cookers or heavy gauge steel smokers. The water pan is a stable heat sink which reduces the extent of temperature swings when you open the lid. That goes back to your comment about the pans making the chamber ideal weather for bbq. Cheers.
Professor Yoder coming in for the win! Thanks a bunch bud. I followed along easily and appreciated your approach.
I just wanted to smoke some chicken wings and I ended up with a headache.. lmao! Great video but honestly my math level is not this high neither is my bbq 😬 I’ll just microwave some hot pockets and call it a day 👍🏼
Love this channel. I smoked my first brisket last week and I'm smoking a pork butt today. I've learned so much from your videos and my friends, my wife and I all thank you for helping me make a tastier smoked meat!
Nice video Jeremy, thanks! One other reason for using a water pan is of course as a temperature buffer. Yes, there's a certain cost to heating up the water in the first place, but once it is up to temp, it will help stabilize temps in the smoker a bit. Whether that is noticable or not depends of course on the construction of the offset smoker (thickness of steel et.c.), as well a size. Either way I'm with you, I think using a water pan in an offset is a necessity. Have a great weekend!
Just purchased a new offset smoker and your fire management videos have been helpful
So my brain started hurting halfway through. Can someone please tell me should I use a water pan or not??
Pellet grill possibly. ,,BGE NO...stick burner if you want to.
Yes use a pan lol.
Yes use a water pan. It acts as a heat sink so makes it easier to control temp in a kettle grill like a weber.
# 2: Not only does it help keep your meat moist, but moist meat absorbs smoke better. Win/Win
Old Gyrene I got a stick burner(offset)
Do you spritz/spray OR wrap?
If you do any of these 3- no.
My uncle has a bbq joint and he recommends just using a pan of playground sand to add mass for keeping consistent temps. Same concept as using a stone in the oven when baking.
I'm totally forwarding this video to Alton Brown. Special episode of Good Eats featuring you, would be epic.
Dave Witt
Haha that would be awesome! That guy is a boss. I doubt he reads what people send him though
Mad Scientist BBQ he actually does. He’s replied to me multiple times. He’s very “fan friendly”, much like yourself.
Dave Witt Wow that’s cool! It would be awesome if he is actually interested in featuring a bbq science episode in his show.
awesome explanation.. i use the smaller off set smokers in my business (Smoking Shells BBQ and Catering)..spritzing is alot less needed and still get amazing bark ..but still have fire management and seeing what your protein is doing..again awesome explanation
Science! I prefer running a waterpan knowing it added moisture and absorbed that extra energy ( helping regulate temp) but you did a great job breaking down the whole thing- even this non science guy can understand better.
I bought a Lodge bread pan and seasoned it. I then use that in my Yoder YS640 smoker and it makes a big difference. Typically, the water needs to be refilled about halfway to get through an entire briscuit cook and I do that when I come out to check the meat and bring a tall glass and fill it up.
I highly recommend it if you are looking for something perfect to use to hold water on your smoker. Again, you must season it because it will rust due to the water.
Math is "hard" 5 out of 2 pit masters agree. :D We need a science of BBQ by Randy!
H2Oskiaddict
😂😂
That would be rockin' lol!
Good video. I learned something, to use a more shallow and wide water pan. This Sunday was not wasted.
11:00 flatten the curve! Lol!
Blown away by your tutoring offer at the end. THAT is a good person, let alone a good BBQ cook.
Never once have I noticed a difference between with or without a water pan. No matter what was cooked.
Great analysis. One other benefit, and I understand that this was beyond the scope of this video, is that having the water pan directly below the meat (which I do on my PK and my Kettle) means making less of a mess by catching what drips off the meat.
Absolutely. Also, when using other styles of cookers, the water pan placed under the meat also acts as a heat deflector.
Now I am thoroughly confused. But when I use a water pan in my smoker, the temps seem to be more stable. So, I will continue to use a water pan in the smoker.
Without the water pan temps will spike higher, where as with water those hotter molecules get absorb so temps is lower more stable.
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I do all my BBQ on a Weber Kettle grill. Unless I'm making jerky I always have a water pan full and sitting on the lower grate next to the charcoal. My meat sits up above the water. I use a 13x9 cake pan on the bottom grate. It has lots of surface area, and also a decent volume of water for the cook chamber. In experience I have noticed that in addition to help keep more moisture in the BBQ, it also helps stabilize the temperature (which is important in such a small bbq). I noticed bigger the water pan and there water I used the more even my temps stayed. It also recovered quicker when opening the lid to check on things. The water in the pan acts as a heat sink. It absorbs a certain amount of heat which helps slow down the rise Ina cooking temp if the coals start getting hotter. It also can give off heat as the coals cool down to slow the decrease in cooking temp. As you mentioned the liquid water in the water pan will never get above 212 F (it is at atmospheric pressure so it's boiling point is 100 C or 212 F). Having this big pan of 212 F water right below the meat helps provide a moist gentle heat to the meat while the rest of the convection and radiative meat from the coals and airflow bounce around the cook chamber and end up in the sides and top of the meat. In my Weber Kettle grill the 13 X 9 cake pan is the largest water pan incan fit on the lower grate and still have a decent amount of room to load up with charcoal. With about 1/3 of the charcoal lit and 2/3 unlit, full pan of water, top vent half open, and bottom vent about 1/4 open I can maintain a cooking temp of about 215 F to 260 F for at least 3 hrs (sometimes 4 hrs if it isn't really cold or windy out) before having to add more charcoal. I've got it down pretty well there. I do have limitations on the amount of cooking space (only about 2/3 of the upper rack is in the indirect area, the other 1/3 is right above the coals), and I do have to adjust the bottom vent every now and then. More often when dialing in the airflow and temp, but once it's set it.might go an hour before needing to be adjusted again. I am hoping to upgrade to a vertical 55 gal drum smoker in the near future. I would love a nice offset smoker but I just don't have the money or cook enough to justify it.
I’ve never used a water pan and for 30+ years have turned out some great meats and briskets. But...I’m going to add one the next time I cook just to see if I can tell the difference.. But I have to tell you rhat watching this video reminded me a lot of my high school chemistry classes. Yep, I had a headache when the bell finally rang...
TexasBob
Haha I understand. I think you can make killer bbq without a water pan, but I think it just makes it easier if you use one.
Brilliant! That made a lot of sense, never would have thought about BBQ this way but it really helps conceptualize what is happening in the chamber. Thanks!
I built a reverse flow offset smoker and definately need the water pans mostly for a barrier between the food and the directly heated floor that the pans sit on. Im always looking for better ways to design my next one. Thanks for your knowledge on smoking and smokers.
It's always good to know WHY you're doing something and not just because people say you should. Good stuff!👍
On cheap barrel smokers the water pan is a most when cooking at higher temps, it difuses the heat catches all the grease and also helps to keep the temp in check.
I have been watching your videos thinking, "He explains things like I do: like a teacher." Now I know why!
Thanks for the video, much appreciated. I'm not sure I agree completely with your information regarding fire (10+ years experience as an arson investigator, I know a little about fire) but I'm not going to go into that right now. To me, the most important thing about your video is to get people thinking about more than just the meat. I am a huge proponent in getting the theory before practical experience. I've never really thought much about the humidity level inside the smoker and whether that would have an effect on the finished product. I will most definitely be using a water pan for my next brisket to try it out. I appreciate the information you have given regarding selection of the proper meats, rubs (I am going to develop my own for my next brisket), materials and methods behind construction of the smoker, rest times, etc. One thing I can't argue with is your methods produce a quality product!! I enjoy your videos, very informative!!
Great job mad scientist. I really like the idea of an in depth explanation as to why cooks are so different and the thoughts behind different ways of cooking. I’ll keep watching if you keep them coming.
Man I love these kind of videos. Great info! I use a cast iron Dutch oven in my offset smoker. Never thought too deeply into the science, but I can tell you from experience that it keeps the temperature much more consistent. My smoker isn't very high quality and burning wood can sometimes get the temp over 400 degrees. With a water pan I can much more easily maintain a consistent temp and also a clean burning fire.
I'm not sure why this works, but it does. When my water pan is empty, my thermapen goes off to some crazy temp and I going running over to my smoker and realize that's the issue!
i got one for you to try. Smoke a brisket like you do regular. the when you wrap instead of paper get an aluminum pan with talo at the bottom that you smoked, lay the brisket in it then poke holes on another pan and use metal spring clips to secure it to the other one and finish smoking.
Holy mackerel bro!!! That blueberry dream is hitting hard and I just got so far down a rabbit hole watching this. Amazing!
Just watched this video very nice of you to offer help to kids needing help in supjects
Im not very good at all the science behind smoking food. I seriously use a Charbroil Gas2Coal 3 burner grill. I started by using one burner and a smoker box with pellets. I have moved to using charcoal with a water pan under the food. You just made my day. I was using 2 6" deep by 3" wide by 5" long foil pans for water. My theory was to use those 2 pans in beetween the heat source and the food to moisturize the grill. I know gas grills arent good for smoking because they dont seal but this is all I have to work with until I save up for a smoker. But I switched to a baking sheet that is 1" deep by 10" wide by 14" long. I did Iowa Chops with hickory chunks right on the coals and the pan under the chops about 4 inches down. Before the baking sheet with water my chops were still turning out kind of dry. Decent smoke but still dry. These were honestly perfect for my level of smoking. I know others are going to do a better job with dedicated smokers but I am proud that the pan worked so much better then the deep foil pans. Let me know if you have any suggestions for me on my method. Again I know its not perfect...lol
Wow, just getting into smoking, but I have some questions about your analysis. First, don't water molecules bond to smoke molecules? If they do, then by increasing the number of water molecules in the smoke chamber, you're effectively removing smoke from your chamber. Of course, a small percentage will still adhere to the meat, but the rest will bond with the smoke and either condense into drippings or escape through the vents. This seems to me that NOT using a water pan would increase the smokey flavor of your meat. Put it another way, with more smoke molecules adhering to the meat, then as long as you reach your desired cook temp, your cook time would be shorter. Or if cooking for the same amount of time, your meat would taste smokier (is smokier even a word?). In any event, I would expect the smoke ring to be substantially less if you add a water pan. I've seen other videos that confirm this hypothesis, but I haven't done any experiments myself yet.
Great stuff. Keep it up! This was unexpected from a search about bbq, and I loved it.
I'm amazed your marker didn't dry out. Thanks for the info too.
Something I can’t find mention of…. By increasing humidity in the cook chamber you somewhat shift your equilibrium toward condensation vs evaporation on unwrapped meat. This should help overcome the “stall” caused by the cooling effect of water evaporating from the meat countering the heating from the cook chamber. I think it just drives the stall point higher, but it does affect it.
Single best explanation of the pros and cons for water pans in you smoker. Well done! 👍👍
Can I also add, that I firmly believe that when steel is cold it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere and when heated the moisture is released. Hence why before we weld thick steel we have to heat it to at least 100 degrees Celsius.
Love your channel Jeremy. Your fire management videos took my bbq to the next level. I always use a water pan to keep even temps and keep moisture in my meat and now I know the science behind it. Thanks.
Michael Pauls
Awesome!
I have a 15" diameter electric Brinkman trashcan style smoker. It has a 1500 watt electric element at the bottom. It puts out a lot of heat. The smoker is only 4' tall and without a water pan the internal temperature at the top of the smoker is 500F. The water pan is between the electric element and the grill at the top. It works like a heat sink. With a water pan the temperature at the top drops to 250-300F depending on outside factors like outside temperature and additional insulation around the smoker. It's made from thing sheet metal so a good breeze will suck all the heat out. So I've put a 55 gal barrel around the smoker to act as a wind break giving me about 3" of dead air space around the outside of the smoker and when I add a lid to the barrel I can control the heat better. Also there is no water from the electric element so it's a very hot dry heat.
The primary contribution of water (vapor) is to the stability of temperature. The specific heat of water is high which is why it helps stabilize the temperature. Specific heat is the measure of the amount of energy required to raised the temperature.
This is the type of content that keeps me coming to your page!
Cool. I just prepped my first brisket. Smoking overnight 8 hrs at 180 degrees, then I will crank it to 225 in the AM, and will cook uncovered until done. I will then rest in a small cooker @ 140 until supper (about 6 pm). So about 19 hrs from start to finish.
I started with a 13 lb prime brisket and trimmed a breadpan worth of trimmings that are in the smoker. I did a shit job trimming. Next time I will be prepared with a sharper knife. Lol. There is also a breadpan full of water in there, because I saw people on TH-cam using them and it made sense to me. (and now I know that was a legit idea).
I’m stoked to have TH-cam to learn so much about things like this 👍
Thank you very much for the video and the work put into it. I really appreciate the scientific explanation as I always approach any cook scientifically to increase consistency in the end results every time, rather than do this and that happens by feel or smell or touch.
The best part of this kind of approach is that it helps without depending on a particular set up. We all get something relevant upon which we can improve our own cooks. Thanks again, and I am waiting for more of this kind:).
Edit: I would love to see an explanation on how moisture in the cook chamber changes the cooking process.I have a general idea but would love an in depth analysis.
I now understand why I took all that science and math in school. I actually kept up with your presentation. Great job keep it coming.
Great stuff , was wondering if this applies to a electic smoker
this is great breakdown- but very specific to your smoker/setup. consider pointing out the difference between a ceramic/kamado style and a non insulated metal cooker. the need for moisture to be added changes significantly based on the cooker!! Also as stated this can help people understand the benefit of a pellet smoker as well
we like tradition so we use wood as out heat source it's an art to be mastered unlike a pellet smoker which is no more than an outdoor oven, set and forget it. it's all about the whole process to us pit masters. You'll never get the real smoke taste with a pellet smoker as you do with an offset.
Love your stuff. Can I get a request in there? You talk about stick burners and pallet burners, what about doing stuff on egg BBQs. I run an Acorn and would like to see what the difference between the former and latter BBQ types are.
Great video Jeremy. When I built smoker I made it with a water pan (about 20 gallons) mainly for easy clean up, open the valve and out comes the water and grease. I know it adds moisture to the cook chamber, but to the food? I don't know. I've had really juicy cooks with and without water. You would've been one of the teachers I would've listened to in school. I have a question for you, my cook chamber is 24x48 how do I figure out how many gallons that is? Keep up the great work my friend.
been using shallow water pans in my weber grill for years i rerely use just water, depending on what i am cooking i use water with apple, pinapple, orange, juice, wine, cidar etc. i find they all add a tad bit more flavour to your food. the only thing i find is if i forget to top up they can dry up and caramalise the sugars, i am maticulous to top up these days. good vid shows the science as to why we add moisture to the cooking process, i love grilling/bbq ing i do it often all year round including xmas day. my home made beef brisket, lamb leg and porchetta is to die for.
Excellent analysis, unfortunately it means very little for me because I'm using lump charcoal in a cabinet smoker. I've done cooks with and without a water pan and the water pan definitely produces better bbq. Keep doing science!
Do find that your cook time is a lot less with a water pan as well? I do. As an example my 15lb brisket is usually done in 8 hrs then it rests.
Great video Jeremy ! You remind a little of Alton Brown from the science prospective! I have the Primo XL grill. I did my first cook and used a water pan . I was wondering what size pan, now I could have checked the one I used but alas I didn't . Also when I put my water in the pan I added some barbeque sauce for favor .
I use 2 pans, 1 full of a 50/50 apple cider/apple juice mix, the other with a dark beer depending on what meats I am smoking. I GUARANTEE you they absolutely have an affect on the moisture being produced inside the smoker, the temp staying stable, and it affects the flavor. Steam is produced from those pans and rises to the racks and that steam has an aroma which penetrates the meats. I'll never stop doing my smoking that way because it works.
I love your videos man. Your information has helped me get better at making brisket, ribs, and pulled pork. Keep them coming man much love for your passion✊
I was really hoping for a brisket cook comparison similar to the foil/paper/none comparison. Thanks for the information in any case.
You answered alot of my questions here. Thanks bud!
One of the biggest benefits with a water pan is leveling out temp fluctuations, especially in a pellet grill, but actually any wood/charcoal setup. keeps it stable.
It helped my old stick smoker hold temps, my new pellet smoker controls temps darn near perfect without a water pan so I don't use them anymore
This video is vital to anyone who is serious about barbecue
Very interesting video. How much do the variables change if using a pellet smoker as opposed to a stick burner? I am assuming that pellets being kiln dried probably contain less water than tradition wood. Would the recommendation of water pans hold true in a pellet grill?
This was seriously interesting! Thank you...I'm going to use a shallow water pan.
Great video, I was just trying to figure this out yesterday.
So as an arborist, wood sculptor, furniture maker my question is how wet do you like your smoking timber. Green wood is typically around 20 percent. Dry wood is between 4 and pick your number. So my real question is… are my smoking woods too dry?
I put water in the drip pan under my meat.
Keeps the oils and sugars in the drippings from burning and turning black, also evaporates so, moisture right below the meat.
I don't have the numbers right at hand but from structural firefighting days the energy to convert water at 100 C to steam is much greater than the energy to raise the water to 100 C. Firefighters working on a structure fire put water on a fire not to soak it and put it out but because the conversion of water to steam soaks up so much of the fires energy (the water vapor also displaces the O2 in the room which starves the fire). Still makes sense to use a water pan. Interesting experiment would be to cook a brisket with water pan and another brisket without a water pan and see if there is any discernable difference. I usually just use a spray bottle of water and apple cider vinegar to keep the meat moist if needed.