In retrospect, according to the NTSB, Mr. Brown was incorrect in saying the control lock made it impossible to taxi the aircraft; nor was the trim switch mis-rigged. Just pilot error.
In my profession, which is computer programming, I learned that it is virtually impossible to spot you’re own mistakes (aka bugs), even when you have your nose right on it. That’s is why you need at least one other person to go over it to check it, and this one will likely spot it right away. It’s amazing.
I was just thinking about this, I wonder if having a second set of eyes on all preflight checks just to make sure one isn’t accidentally skipped would be helpful.
Tired eyes that have been scanning for a problem such as a missing semicolon will never spot It but fresh eyes will spot it as if it were highlighted in bright orange
I was in that business for about 40 years. Finding my mistakes was usually done as I explained what was/is/should be happening. That's also why we had code walkthroughs.
Student here (59 hrs). Because of the recent reversed trim accidents, my preflights now include standing outside the a/c and working the trim wheel to make certain the tab goes the right way.
My dad always used a laminated sheet of paper with the pre flight written on it. He would grease pencil check marks as he went through it. I've never seen another pilot use a written check list, I'm sure there are some but it's rare in my experience.
You will know in 300 feet if your trim is way off also I do not take off like he did in the video so if something is wrong I will know and yes I do fly extra330 after 800 1000 feet you can crank it up but not right off the ground the second the nose popped up it would of been shut down like they say bold pilots and old pilots and I am getting to old pilot that stunt flys it was in the controls and off the ground you have options in the air not as many lot of runway in front of that plane he was hotdoging and a problem arose
Value of this video: Understanding some of the possible circumstances of a fatal accident. Reinforcing the importance of inspections. Understanding a bit more about trim in this plane I am not familiar with. I’m listing these out to express my appreciation for these videos as a student pilot.
Super job as always, Juan. I just watched the video yesterday where you theorized that the controls were locked. Coming back the next day with new information is top notch. Nothing but facts and integrity from everything I’ve seen you do, Juan. The world could use more like you. Keep up the excellent work!
I was working for Kal-Aero, Kalamazoo, Michigan in the early 1980's as an A&P/IA. The Air Zoo flew in the local airshow for the first time the "Flight of the Cats", that is ALL Grumman Cats were in the air. Dale of course was the driver in the Tomcat. Amazing formation of history. We Salute! Captain Dale "Snort" Snodgrass...Fair Winds and Following Seas. You served your country with honor and courage.
Its so upsetting that someone who flew so many hours in some of the most extreme conditions lost his life flying this little plane. It really brings attention to the fact that no matter who you are, what you have flown and where you have flown it, each flight has potential to be the last one! Just because you've successfully flown for 50 years there's no guarantee. The only possible prevention is to be over-vigilant each and every flight! Always complete the entire checklist and be sure repairs are done properly. No such thing as too vigilant when flying! RIP Snort, I hope your heaven has every plane you love to fly!
I remember a quote attributed to Bob Hoover in which he stated that the Piper Cub was the safest airplane ever built, and it could "just BARELY kill you!" Unfortunately, the devil is in the details, and even little details can have serious consequences.
There’s simply very very little room for error. You could have accumulated a million miles on a hundred different planes, but all it takes is one little mistake.
From what I have read the rudder works fine when the controls are locked and the plane can be taxied fine. The NTSB found the cause to be inadvertent locked controls.
I've done many many Owner assisted annuals and unassisted annuals. A couple of the unassisted ones were real cause for concern. Had a C182 in for annual and upon pick up found that the front seats had been switched now because the Adjustable seat was on the right I noticed it immediately when I sat in the left or pilots' seat. Same Owner different Plane different shop. When we went to pick up the plane naturally the logs weren't ready but every thing was done and ready to go. On the preflight found only 1 screw on all the inspection covers and panels. Found a bac of screws on a workbench with a tag with the N Number on it. Inspect inspect inspect after any maintenance or others flying your plane.
I have no reason to suspect anyone's motives but with the video why did no one be proactive with a fire extinguisher? Is there a protocol not to advance to the craft?
@@deerhunter7482 I guess they realised that the impact was unsurviveable and then when they noticed the flames may have thought it would blow up. In other words perhaps they didn't want to endanger themselves for no reason :/
@@larrybe2900 Most, if Not all airports have S.O.P.'s regarding what to do in case of an incident, and may state Only Certain personnel are to respond to an incident. Also if they were "airline" personnel they may not have known what the airport's policies are regarding incidents and/or may have limited training. Hopefully that answers your question.
After learning of this I took some time to learn about Dale. It’s always sad to learn of another Veteran slipping away; my heart really goes out to y’all in the aviation community.
I retired from the USAF several years ago after 26 years of active duty. (I was not a pilot). I remember reading a USAF publication regarding a C-141 doing a night takeoff from (I think) McGuire AFB. Tower personnel were watching the Starlifter as it accelerated down the runway. When it became airborne, it was observed to go into a very high angle of climb. The aircraft continued to increase it's climb angle and to all watching it was apparent the Starlifter was just seconds from a power-on stall. Then unexpectedly, the aircraft turned on its side at a high angle of bank and began turning in tight circles above the airfield. As it flew in a circle it was gaining altitude. (Tower personnel reported it was difficult to see the aircraft except for the navigation lights). The aircraft continued circling, it eventually leveled off several thousand feet up and only then reported MayDay. The aircraft returned to base safely and everyone was ok. Later investigation revealed a "run away trim" problem on the elevators. The pilots were able to save the aircraft only because they had the presence of mind to put the aircraft on its side BEFORE it stalled. This allowed the aircraft to keep flying. While the aircraft was in the midst of this emergency, the flight engineer was able to access the trim switch and rip away its wiring. I believe that is what was said at the time. All this to say....is this a suitable solution for private pilots in smaller aircraft? Ie., uncommanded high angle takeoff you immediately put the aircraft on it's side and begin circling rather than just continuing the climb until you stall out? IF I were a pilot, I think I'd definitely consider it. But, I suppose you would have to train for this until the response becomes automatic. You would not have time to think about it when it was occurring. Perhaps Juan knows of this incident and might remember some of the facts more accurately than I do. This is incident is very similar to the comment and scenario described by Manny Puerta in an earlier post.
The problem there is, as the bank angle increases so does stall speed. In other words, if the aircraft is already at or near stall speed, increasing the bank angle will only accelerate that condition.
@@wendyvic4046this is correct assuming positive G is left on the wing. If the wing is unloaded towards 0 G and the bank is started the nose will come down without stalling. Pilot performed a nose high unusual attitude recovery and saved the day.
@@zachmulligan11you are absolutely correct. You just let the nose come down on it own. I do this all the time in a military trainer for some of the advanced flights on the syllabus. It will achieve the same result in a large airplane.
Without being one of the guessers as to the probable cause, I can contribute a related scenario. Back a long time ago, when flying civilian Herc’s, we developed a scenario in the simulator where runaway trim occurred in both pitch and yaw. We found that if we did have uninterrupted runaway up trim to the stop we could roll into a 45 degree bank, lowering flaps as speed decreased, and because of the normal back pressure required the airplane was flyable with full nose up elevator trim. Of course, in reality we would never allow the trim to run that far, but it was a good training scenario for the crews. As long as you had fuel you had time to trouble shoot and resolve the unresolved elev trim issue while in a controllable, banked turn. The airplane was unflyable with wings level. I’m not saying rolling into a steep bank right after takeoff in that airplane would be the solution, but the concept, tested in one’s own aircraft, might be something to explore. Certainly, keeping the wings level in that situation is not an option. Admittedly, the entire event happened extremely quickly with minimal chance for recovery for even someone with Snort’s experience. Whether related to this or not, my mantra just prior to each takeoff, remains: FLAPS, FUEL (fuel selector, mixture, boost/fuel fuel pump(s), TRIM as a final check before beginning my takeoff roll. Obviously, this is in addition to a proper Before Takeoff Checklist being accomplished. It is not a replacement.
Manny, Exactly the procedure I was thinking of. We practiced a runaway up pitch trim after take off in our Learjet and Falcon Sims, and rolling into a steep bank works. One can then disconnect the primary pitch trim and engage the secondary trim, and get things back under control. Of course I'm not that familiar with this aircraft's trim system, and by all accounts Dale was an excellent pilot, very experienced in all kinds of aircraft, so I'll be very interested as to the cause. Always sad to loose a brother aviator. One other thing. I always assumed that any aircraft coming out of maintenance needs an extremely thorough preflight, to include all the control surfaces. I went so far as to make up a written "Post Maintenance Checklist" which took me well over an hour to complete. Can't be too careful.
@@johncox4273 Good for you on the post-maintenance preflight. Maintenance induced failures can certainly be an issue. I don’t take anything for granted, either. The other thing I might mention is a go around from a full nose up trim, full flap, short field approach in a 185 at sea level. There is usually no electric trim, so if you are solo you’re in for a struggle. I train to only add 25” of manifold pressure (to reduce the pitch up moment), flaps to 30 or 20, push like hell and trim. It’s quite an exercise and an eye-opener if you’ve never done it before.
I read somewhere of a DC3 carrying heavy cargo which slipped back on take off, Both pilots were JUST able to keep control against the aft CG but not for long before their strength ran out, so they rolled it into a steep turn once high enough and that gave them time to move the cargo forward again and restore the CG. Also, on Concorde line training with first-time Conc pilots they were briefed to level off at 1500' after t/o and many bust that level such was the rocket-like performance at light weight. One of them told me "I used to get it turning - that cooled things down a bit!".
@@johncox4273 All of which assumes you KNOW what is going to happen, and have a pre-planned response in your mind ready to go. That plane leapt up and went vertical, stalled and crashed in a matter of seconds. He had time to realize it was crashing but little more.
Hey Juan, here's what happened to Jerry a few years ago. He took off from a small West Texas airport, having done a very thorough and uneventful pre-flight on the Cherokee 140. After an uneventful takeoff and climb-out to 3000 AGL, he executed a standard rate right hand turn, only to discover a stuck elevator! He fought for a couple of minutes, using the throttle to control altitude and attitude, deciding that he would not be able to land the plane in its current state, he decided to pull really hard in an attempt to un-jam the elevator, and to his surprise, there was a pop, and the control freed up and began to operate normally! What had happened is that a mud dauber had built a sizeable mud nest on the elevator cable, and the vibration of flight loosened it and it slid down the cable and wedged into the pulley! A very UNPLEASANT surprise, according to Jerry, followed by a tear down of the inspection panels and subsequent removal of a lot more mud nests!
Those mud dauber wasps have brought down full sized passenger jets. They usually build the mud nests in the Pitot tubes, which leads to false readings in the instruments.
This accident is a real shame. I always said to other pilots in my charter department and students alike, you never know when something is going to happen to you. Those of us that have had potentially fatal things happen to us are the lucky ones. It doesn't take much and you just don't know how you're going to react to something unless you've been in some life or death situations before. When I was first flying VFR freight charter in a Lance, I had the seat go all the way back on rotation (I was empty going out to load the freight at another airport). Even at 6'3", I could barely reach the yoke. Thankfully I had enough sense to not grab it. I also checked the trim before every flight, even if I was on the way back home after being on the ground for only an hour. Also, the Lance and Saratoga series are pretty nose heavy, so the abrupt change in CG didn't have that much of an effect. Just happened to be after the aircraft stabilized in a climb that I could grab onto the sidewall and pull myself forward. I think things like this happen a lot more than most people realize, and the ones that are unlucky or the circumstances were just wrong when the event happened, are guys like Snodgrass. I feel terrible for his family and friends. Have an amazing career like this guy had, not to mention his service to the country and in 30 seconds it can be lights out permanently.
@@einzelganger1049 Luck actually has a lot to do with it. I suppose I'm using luck and circumstance interchangeably, but it has everything to do with it. Wrong place, wrong time.
One of my first thoughts was ‘runaway trim’ Juan. Been in a big turbo prop when it happened. Luckily it was a multi crew aircraft and the pilot non-flying was quickly able to override the action. Turned out it was a faulty trim switch on the left control column . R.I.P ‘Snort’ .
Don't know how you guys choose to fly when a cheap malfunctioning part can spell disaster. Couldn't pay me enough to get on a plane even once, never mind on the regular.
I had the same thing happen to me, when I was still flying. The shop manager was right seat with me and I had a similar expletive. I asked my right seater help me to force the nose down. We returned to the airport under emergency. When I pulled the thrust lever back, it helped tremendously.
Thanks Juan, you always do a great job, been recommending you to my pilot friends around the airport. So sad to lose snort, such an accomplished aviator. Again, Thanks Juan, great job as always.
The post maintenance warning is genuine. I had both air start units on an EMB-145 fail when after a service/inspection, oil was not replaced in the starter gear boxes. They fried on the fourth cycle(S), blowing shards and sparks out the air exhaust. Thanks Juan
I'm not a pilot and have never flown in a small aircraft, I believe every pilot should watch your reports of the tragic crashes. It could save a life. Keep reporting all the things you report on.
Lot of brainiac know-it-alls out there flyin', that the problem. Don't know how to get the rubber to the road when it matters most. Just look at twin engine pilots that have augered in recently. The most critical situation at take-off, especially so with twin engine plane, 1 engine fails, and no if, ands, or buts, must level off and turn to good engine side, to gain air speed and not stall bad engine wing, but none of them did that. They do just opposite of that and I not even a pilot. Watching all these video's has made me more scared to fly than ever. I especially like the AirBus flight with one pilot pushing forward on stick and other pulling back on stick at full throttle. They flat stalled that plane for 3 1/2 minutes into ocean..Scary stuff right there.
Such a tragedy. Such an experienced pilot, (in a hurry, asking for take off on ground freq) such a nice aircraft. The ATC audio is very revealing and chilling at the same time.
Juan Brown. As an Avionics-Instrument tech, back in the 1970's I worked an elevator trim system problem on a T-39. It was written up as "works backwards." It did, in fact, work backwards. . The shop who previously worked a trim problem on this airplane, did not understand how the trim worked. (Was either Aero Repair, or the Electric Shop) They said if the trim tab moved DOWN, the nose of the plane would go down, reducing the AOA - WRONG! In Normal operation, as you know Juan, if the trim tab moves DOWN, the elevator is deflected UP, increasing the airplane's AOA. If the tab is moved UP, the elevator is deflected DOWN decreasing the airplane's AOA. Have seen this with the rudder trim on other T-39's. May be the cause of the crash. The aircraft maintenance forms should show any work done in that area. Thanks. N6395T (I'm still going with locked controls - from something.)
How about the fire extinguisher, visible at 0:33 is dislodged during embarkation/disembarkation or adjustment of shoulder harness, rolls back and jams under the horizontal torque tube, visible at 2:00 that connects the rear stick to the front stick. The torque tube rises when the stick is back, lowers when the stick goes forward. Anything jammed under there would prevent the pilot getting the stick forward.
Excellent presentation! Minor addition: If the Marchetti's control lock is the same as the Bird Dog's, it not only prevents the rudder pedals from moving, it also depresses the brakes, preventing the plane from even rolling. I spent the past six years flying Caravans. Never once did I use the electric trim for fear of a runaway trim, something one of our pilots experienced. Too, the manual trim gives you a more intimate feel for the airplane. On a practical note, if you use it a lot it's going to eventually fail, and that little switch costs about $500.
It was reported that he was going camping. The Marchetti has a lot of elevator throw and while I can see flap extension, I can't see any elevator deflection in a frame-by-frame view. Admittedly, it is grainy and it would be hard to say for sure. Another person who knew the aircraft before he bought it, reported there was no cloth boot around the bottom of the rear control stick and floor. Maybe....only guessing, he had some camping gear in the rear and you can speculate from there. Perhaps that can explain his last Tx as he was pushing the control stick and hitting the mike button while he was leaning backwards trying to free a jam. It has happened before and I know a couple Comanche pilots that couldn’t get a green light on retraction, returned to the field only to find out a Jep or lunch bag stopped the Johnson bar from traveling the full distance.
I think this is a more likely cause considering how nice that airplane looked. Of course just because there is a lot of money in it doesn’t mean it was maintained well…
@@ethanhiggins4887 Trim issues happen but they are rare. Even with full power, the airflow/pressure at slow speeds wouldn’t produce, in most cases, a trim induced control issue you couldn’t over power or merely stop by turning off the master switch and trim manually. Someone once told me to not overlook the more likely and mundane explanation in favor of a sexy and more technical/complex possibility. I couldn’t see any control surface deflections that you would expect in this kind of accident unless the control movement was restricted some how. BUT, everything I have said is just speculation. Guilty as charged.
What a tragic, unnecessary loss. Regarding the cause (pilot error, given his overall flight hours and history can be ruled out I guess at this point)........I really love Italy, it's people, culture and landscapes! They are the greatest designers on earth in my view, also in the technical arena but if the product says "made in ....." go after ELECTRICS! I think you have a solid lead there already. (had a few cars...great motors but Jesus, the electrics usually get temperamental once you cross the Alps northwards). Many thanks for your great investigative work Mr. Brown. Always good and enlightening to listen to you. Stay safe.
The Siai-Marchetti was a foreign manufactured military aircraft licensed in the experimental exhibition category. Flight characteristics may or may not conform to our standard category airworthiness category.
U completely wrong ! Siai marchetti is a well designed Italians airplane , capable, and civilian aircraft ! Also military trainer versions, which I flew it ….most likely that was a control lock mechanism……could be that he didn’t disconnect the alevator control lock …
Okay, as a former aircraft mechanic in the USAF, if we had to work on, or replace stuff on flight control systems, we were REQUIRED to ops check flight control function with one in the flight deck and one on the ground to ensure flight controls were moving in correct direction and deflection angles. Maybe GA needs to REQUIRE two man ops checks if they don't already, which would be insane.
Extremely aft cg and over loading produces an impossible nose pitch up. It happened to me in a Cessna 180 flying sky divers. 5 guys with 5 parachutes in a 180. On take off roll I was pushing full force forward to the point of possibly breaking the yoke and the tail would not lift up. I look to the rear and see one of the sky divers had slid back past the baggage area into the tail cone.
I don't think that was a factor. This cockpit is tiny. Not much distance from the back of the pilot's seat to the end of the cockpit. He stowed camping equipment in the rear seat. I don't think it could have seriously affected the COG.
@@pookatim it sure looks like it would be difficult to put this plane in an aft cg. Unless you put 500 lbs in the rear seat. The pilot seems to be sitting about on the cg. I agree it looks like cg was not the problem.
The argument against a CG problem seems legit. The arguments for some other causes seem weak. I haven't listened to the tape. Any chance a heart attack led to the crash?
I love following Juan as he plows through the data to answer all the questions people raise regarding these accidents. Some people obviously misunderstand and accuse him of being premature in his conclusions when they don't understand that they are witnessing an investigaion in progress. It's fascinating to watch professional pilots like Juan and Dan Gryder wade through all the emerging information to let us in on the "probable cause" of the accident without making us wait two years for an NTSB guess that may not be any more revealing. Keep up the good work, Juan!
There are some still shots of the tail of the plane as the fire is being extinguished post-crash. An expanded screenshot appears to show deflected trim tabs.
As an aircraft mechanic it's my worst nightmare to cause an accident and death, I had super Instructors at Reedley College Aero, you did it right or you were gone. 👍👍👍👍👍❤🇺🇸
Juan I truly respect, enjoy and learn from your videos. Unlike certain other channels, it’s never about you and you’re always respectful of the people involved regardless of who they are.
I read a comment over another video from a owner he stated this aircraft requires lot of trim up to land it, and if that trim was left like that with the flaps on take off at 30 Degrees the 400 HP turbine engine will cause it to nose up rapidly. If you look at the crash video you can clearly see he does have flaps down to some degree not sure how much on take off.
I saw Dale's F-14 Supertomcat demo at MacDill AFB in Tampa decades ago and thought he was one of the best I have seen. And I understand he was a terrific guy to be around.But, when the big guy upstairs says it is time to come home it is going to happen.
I think I read where the WWII Focke Wolf 190 had an electric trim switch, which used to fail and runaway occasionally. The switch failure got one of the post WWII USAF test pilots that was doing post war evaluations on the aircraft’s performance (and doing bond and goodwill tours). Not a new problem and very dangerous, even for very experienced pilots (especially a 72 year old pilot who doesn’t think as fast as he used to).
Interesting….one would wonder that a light aircraft, even if modified to utilize a powerful turboprop, could be certified in which pitch authority could not override pitch trim….and if so…a possible emergency procedure would be to chop power? Yes, understand everything happened fast….. Also possible pitch was not set for take-off, and still set in the last position for landing (with flaps)? And what about a weight & balance issue, mis-calculation …something just too heavy placed in the aft baggage area (assume there is an aft storage area).
Juan, Thanks for keeping us informed on this one. I gave Charlie Hilliard a final good luck from the radio of the DC 3 jump plane just before he started his fatal show at Sun n fun 1996. I was at Kissimmee two years later when two of the Red barron team collided in 98 and I was at the French Connection practice in Flagler when they collided. I knew Dale and talked with him several times in St Augustine. I hadn’t talked with him in probably 20 years. This was a shock. I hope the NTSB gets it right.
It seems like that there's more of these types of crashes ,especially after takeoff . Maybe , take more time on your check list . Even triple check,it's your life ,folks that are with you ,and the unknowing public . Thanks Juan for time and info on these often unreported accidents . ✈✈✈
During my time working on A-4's runaway trim off an aircraft carrier was a serious concern. So much that a manual trim disable switch was installed on A-4's that were carrier-based. My thought is a Naval Aviator would understand runaway trim and his memory circuits and muscle memory would -- Perhaps more than any other type of aviator -- correct the situation almost instantly.
Man this has been a tough year. Thanks for your content always blanco! Rip snod and especially my friend Brad Launchpad Marzari. Lost too many good ones again
To me (a non-pilot) the really horrifying thing about this accident is the speed at which events happened. From the wheels leaving the ground to impact is 10 seconds at most. It seems most unlikely it would have been immediately obvious something was wrong so the time to react and take corrective action was less than that. Even if the assumption that corrective action can be started in 4 seconds is realistic it looks to me that would have been too late to be effective.
I am not a pilot. With that said, I was listening to the details of what is on the stick, the trim control that Juan mentions (at about 3 minutes in) as being a possible contributor to the nose up pitch and the radio controls nearby. In the video after atc clears Dale for take off he acknowledges. She immediately comes back to remind him to switch to another frequency. If the video is synced with the audio he was already moving. He acknowledges the radio freq. change then the AT Controller comes on the radio again and repeats the clearance for take off. Dale, about to lift off, acknowledges this final transmission. Then the aircraft immediately starts the steep climb. While fighting to control the stall, Dale shouts out twice inadvertently heard over the radio just before impact. It seems to me that this last exchange of comms from atc was not only unnecessary, and could have waited until after take off was achieved safely, but placed Dales attention at the wrong time to his radio rather than the trim control switch close by. Instead of manipulating the trim he's activating the radio. I could be wrong but, I got a sinking feeling Juan made the connection for the possibility that the trim switch along with the radio switch made the holes line up that took Dale's life.
Video intentionally omits pauses longer than one second. It’s in the video description. There was actually 36 seconds of silence from Dale’s takeoff confirmation to his final heartbreaking words. The video shortens that to six seconds, giving the false impression he and the tower were still communicating during that silence.
Looking at the frame by frame shots, he definitely has flaps down to some extent. When you step through the frames and even seeing the post accident pictures, the trim tabs look in place and the elevator was neutral. There is a few frames of the plane in the sharp left bank and you can clearly see the elevators. Really makes me wonder if the elevator was completely stuck or bound in some manner. My understanding is that there is a 4K video of the accident. Hopefully they find the cause of the accident. Hate to see a pilot of his caliber lose his life this way.
Not sure why the flaps were down on takeoff - at least to that extent. They were still evidently down as the plane turned but were they still so far down? Agreed there doesn't seem to be any movement of any other control surfaces. Would the flaps have added to the pitch up moment? Sure the plane was a STOL but this was a takeoff to get somewhere in a hurry so why flaps? The video also suggests he took off well before getting clearance - unless the audio and video are out of sync.
@@peterknight4692 He got clearance two times. At 0:38 still rolling then coming to full stop at 0:42, then a second time at 0:53 when he was already taking off. I think he said "... up ..." as in showing up on the ATC frequency and getting the clearance a second time. But that is my speculation as I don't understand him and procedures only merely.
@@KB4QAA Ok, though I got this from the FAAsafety.gov website on flap usage:- "Flap deflection of up to 15° primarily produces lift with minimal drag. The airplane has a tendency to balloon up with initial flap deflection because of the lift increase. The nose down pitching moment, however, tends to offset the balloon. • Flap deflection beyond 15° produces a large increase in drag. In high-wing airplanes, a significant nose up pitching moment can occur because the resulting downwash increases the airflow over the horizontal tail." That looked a lot more than 15 degrees of flap.
@@peterknight4692 The audio and video are badly - and deliberately; read the video description - out of sync. They show about 18 seconds from takeoff to final words/crash when the actual radio transmission recording shows there was silence for 35-36 seconds between his acknowledgment of takeoff ti his final heartbreaking words. So he did not rush takeoff but was silent for about 18 seconds before taking off.
In Skydiving we double check everything ourselves, then we get our buddy to check us out again that's saved lives, crazy stuff gets missed if you don't get that buddy check. before we board the plane. It's happened and will happen again, the pull-up cord left in the loop that closes the bag for the deployment pin or ripcord system. This totally prevents the chutes deployment. Guarantees a reserve ride and amazingly guys base jumping have died with that one. Leg straps or chest strap not fastened, people have fallen out of the harness on opening the chute and a lot more. You can always use another pair of eyes and a full check. It's something GA pilots don't do but I can think of several who might still be alive if they had.
yeah and even then on my first duo jump, my tandem harness broke as i was just about to go out the plane attached with that harness to the parachute man It just snapped clean off. Luckily while I was still in the plane. I did go on a second jump right after landing with the plane, and did a solo not to long after there i had my share of complications as well . sticky followed by a huge twist and the radio didn't work either , good fun all around
I was wondering the same thing, it would at the very least have reduced the left-turning tendency. I just don't think there was enough time. Assuming Snort's left hand is on the throttle during take-off, and the stick in his right is giving too much resistance, my guess is he'd move his left hand to the stick to apply force with both hands, leaving the throttle set at full-forward. I've never attempted a power-reduction during power-on stall practice. I don't know what that would do.
The B737 MCAS fiasco taught everyone that trim forces depend strongly on airspeed. It is not clear that mis-trimming would exceed the range of control forces at takeoff speed (07:15)
Gordon... Not exactly. The Stab trim increased (ND) beyond the elevator authority to trim the airplane. They were doomed at just about any airspeed. The crew kept adding elevator, and ran out of authority for NU.....
@@billmecorney In the Ethiopian Max crash, the takeoff power setting was never reduced, all the way through the pitch excursions, all the way to impact… 737s in general experience an enormous pitch up when adding power, especially if you’re not ready for it and ON the nose down trim AS the power comes up… With 18k hours of time in several models of the 737, I can tell you that if you’re trimmed properly for a landing, then hit the TOGA switches without starting down trim, you’re gonna go for an interesting pitch up ride… Hit those switches twice gets you full thrust, and that is nearly impossible to control with the elevators alone, I’ve had a new FO that I was giving OE to do that, and I literally was hitting the full elevator nose down stop before the elevator trim started helping get the nose down… I can’t see where Snort made any noticeable control inputs, even with the video slowed down and magnified… I think when the controller asked him to come up on the 119.4 tower freq, it looked to me as if he pulled the power back for a moment, then pushed it up again, I kind of think that some of his camping gear fell in front of the stick and wedged it back during that power change…
@@joer5571 That is my surmise also. A bag or camp stove lodged in front of the aft stick. It was the new engines on the MAX that drove the installation of MCAS. Maneuvering Control Augmentation System.... Engineers feared takeoff would lead to pitch excursions and possible stall. The cause of Lion and Ethiopian accidents was lack of awareness of the major changes. As a 737 pilot, do you think the MAX should require a new Type certificate?
Im not a pilot in the real world although i have flown hundreds of hours in realistic simulations. Your explanation of runaway trim makes the most sense to me given dales experience level and training. I’ve felt all along that this must be an electrical or mechanical malfunction somewhere in his controls.
@@blancolirio This happen to me in a Partenavia P.68 when i first started working.The only thing I could do was to reduce the power. ended up doing a circruit at a very uncomfortable low speed and land at Whyalla South Australia. I will always remember it, Run away trim.
There are some images floating around where you can see pretty clearly that Dale had full down elevator just prior too and during the stall, I wonder what he had on board for cargo?
There’s also a clear picture of the “general” neutral trim tab after impact online. Google Snodgrass airplane crash pictures. Not sure if the impact could have changed trim tab configuration? Still appears to me as heavy aft cg? I personally have a hard time talking about this stuff sometimes, but Juan, I agree with you. If we can learn from this, then it might save someone else’s life in the process, and THAT makes it worth talking about. Fly safely guys and ladies. I pray for this man’s soul and strength for his family.
Non-pilot asks: No matter how powerful the trim tab force is, how could it possibly overpower the application of full down elevator, which looks like it has at least ten times the surface area? And why would the pilot even be fiddling with trim settings on takeoff? I thought trim was for making fine adjustments to the plane during level flight?
I'm not a pilot either. The trim tabs seem to have a mechanical advantage by being out at the trailing edge of the elevator whereas the man-powered elevator control would be applied closer to the elevator pivot point. Just guessing because pilots here are seeming to point out the forces that the trim tabs can have. But it seems to me that system design should always allow the direct elevator controls to override any incorrect trim setting. If not, "trim" is not a very good term for these things - something more like "alternate elevator" control would be closer to what they do.
The trim tab is at the end of the elevator, which gives the tab a lot of leverage to move the elevator. Fighting against it will be dfficult or impossible. Trim has to be set correctly for every phase of the flight: if you have ever stick your hand out of your car window, you know how much force air can exert even at speeds very low for an aircraft
Christopher28fair Yes, both for level flight and high speed and for the gross adjustments needed for takeoffs and landings that are at lower speeds. Also for climbing with more power and descending with reduced power.
Notice that the trim tab doesn't control the aeroplane directly, it controls (or biases) the elevator which controls the aeroplane. The pilot cannot physically apply enough force (through the stick) to oppose the force applied to the elevator by the trim tab in this case. Imagine a demon standing on the horizontal stabilizer, heaving upwards on the back of the elevator. The pilot cannot physically move the elevator in the direction they want to. If they could, yes the aircraft would probably be controllable despite the trim tab. The trim tab is used in all regimes of flight, from take-off to landing. Any changes in power or attitude usually require trim changes. Trim (when it's working correctly) is used to negate forces that the pilot would otherwise have to continuously apply to the controls. Look for cockpit videos of small planes and note when the pilot is cranking what is usually, in older types, a wheel-like control, before lining up for takeoff, in the climb after takeoff, beginning descent etc.
If the switch or system was faulty, he may not have touched it at all. The trim tabs move the whole elevator (see the graphic) So it's not elevator vs trim tab, it's trim tab force vs stick. Generally it is often able to be overcome by the pilot, but that as reported, that may not be the case in this aircraft.
In WWII, the British Lysander, had a number of accidents because full nose up trim couldn't be overcome by stick forces on a short takeoff. It was the high wing fixed gear plane used to pick up and drop off spies in France.
like something getting under your foot pedals on your car, no matter how hard you mash down, not much is going to happen. it's kind of like skydiving, you can drop a few balls you're juggling and no harm, no foul, but at certain times everything has to be done by the numbers. (body position at pull time and flaring the canopy.)
Hard for me to imagine - no matter how much thrust from engine and such a slow airspeed - that he couldn’t push elevator full forward to overcome any trim setting. With lots of stuff stowed in rear (seat) likelihood of snag on rear control stick seems high to me. Sad.
At about :59 on the What You Haven't Seen video it looks like the starboard aileron is deflected upwards momentarily, like an instinctual correction to counter the roll.
As always Juan, excellent respectful reporting and analysis of the accident. One thing I noticed by watching the video you linked to that adds to your theory of the control lock being engaged is that the tail of the plane was never raised prior to takeoff. As you know, pushing forward on the stick to raise the tail off the ground is a typical method of takeoff on a tail dragger. The fact that that was not done may also indicate the presence of a control lock.
If that’s a PTT / ICS switch beside the cookie hat I will throw in another possibility. If it’s a 2 position switch (fwd for XMIT back for ICS) it is possible he was activating that instead of the trim switch. Thinking he was trimming down but actually transmitting. Hence the swearing on the radio. Switchology in a new aircraft can bite you!
First of all, many thanks for your always great videos. I learn something by watching them every time. I am just a private pilot but the way I have learned is to verify the trim operation. It was part of my checklist. On my first plane, a Cessna 150F, I could turn around an see it while operating the control wheel. On my Diamond DA20, I have LEDs indicator for the actual position of the trim. I have been flying for 18 years and been verifying the trim function as part of the checklist.
the way the plane pitched up so steadily... maybe a bad trim setting caused the initial abrupt over-rotation -- causing heavy cargo to slide back --- thus preventing a recovery even w full down elevator. Maybe his muscle memory was used to a certain "nudge back" of the stick to get this rotation-attitude, but w a bad trim setting that usual nudge cause way more nose up that what he expected... and once some heavy cargo slid back, not even full down elevator could make a difference. I would try to zoom the video images & see if there was full down elevator deflection after the over-rotation (might suggest cargo slid back after the initial unexpected over-rotation).
@@tammyhefner8971 -- The image quality isn't the greatest, but if that's true... then maybe an elevator cable failure. The flight profile looks a lot like a severe aft-CG incident, but maybe the flight control failure caused the initial over-rotation, which then caused all loose cargo to immediately slide aft. Sad how quickly it all went bad.
@@400_billion_suns -- yeah, that looks a lot like down elevator... strongly suggests some kind of severe aft-CG... Maybe he wasn't carrying "cargo" per se. But something heavy appears to have shifted far aft on rotation. Maybe he was honestly practicing a sporty rotation & there was an unexpected shift in whatever luggage or materials he was carrying on board.
The elevator appears to be in exact trail position of the horizontal stab all the way to the crash. It never moves, and is exactly lined up with the horizontal stab.
In the USAF in my time, 1968-1988, flying the RC-130A, AC-130A and as an Undergraduate Pilot Training Instructor in the T-38A, I recall runway trim exercises. To deal with high pitch forces, banking the aircraft while following other acft specific procedures, was the way to lower the pitch angle to avoid a stall. Of course, it is unknown for now if Dale had flight control issues. Nose trim can only do so much at high pitch angles.
I was watching the video of the crash yesterday while you where posting and to my eye it looked to be an identical profile as the 747 crash in Bagram right up to the nose over. That crash was of course caused by a load shift causing damage to the elevator control, and I cannot imagine a severe cargo shift like this in a light plane so I believe you hit the nail on the head with a diagnosis of a control system failure.
I got the same impression... they'll absolutely have to rule out a load shift. Because the initial pitch-up was so abrupt, that might have caused a chain reaction: (a) something caused the plane to over-rotate and (b) as a result, a bunch of heavy cargo went full aft. In that case, not even full down elevator would make a difference.
@@JediOfTheRepublic -- Could be. But I personally have never flown a GA aircraft were full up trim makes it impossible to force the nose down, especially at low speeds. Granted, that turbine propwash must be very strong. But if it were really full nose-up trim, I think we'd have seen some kind of oscillation (even slight) to show he was fighting it. Again, you may be right & the manufacturer will have to weigh in -- since their flight test records will include adverse trim tests. But I also think there's a possibility something (maybe not cargo) slid back when he first rotated. He may have intended a normal 'sporty' rotation & then maybe something heavy (suitcase, duffle bag, whatever) slid too far aft.
@@pdquestions7673 Unfortunately if the cargo shifted and caused a CG divergence, it shifted all the way forward on impact. The empennage cover is (apparently, need confirm) canvas with velcro, but I also see a 1979 model's images with a tinned rear cargo compartment and some webbing net. That compartment appears to run almost to the front of the vertical stab.
@@mfree80286 -- hopefully there's enough evidence to do a good investigation & infer a probable cause that's meaningful. Just have to hope for the best & also hope people learn as much as they can from each accident like this.
As someone who has thought that they would die imminently several times while doing what I love, that thought doesn’t come to mind in the moment. It always just sucks really bad.
Had a runaway trim incident in my old Cherokee Six. Thankfully I was landing and low power, and was able to overpower the elevator trim (it was full down) and didn’t have time to pull the breaker or troubleshoot. Made the landing. Taxied directly to the maintenance hangar.
It's not just you. But the video resolution isn't great and it's riddled with compression artifacts, so it's entirely plausible that the control surfaces were moving but the video quality isn't sufficient to discern that movement. It's also plausible that the control surfaces really didn't move.
I would think the NTSB could recreate the incident safely on-site on same time line & determined quality of tower video Rule out speculation of control surface movement
I experienced a misrigged elevator trim system in a Grob 103 glider upon take-off under aero-tow for a ferry flight CKE to CVH. Luckily stick control easily overpowered any trim adjustment and I figured out the problem. I should have released and landed to give the glider back to the mechanic/repair station but I continued on tow to my destination where the glider became involved in a law suit!
Juan I have a question. Considering the absolute excellent flying skills that Dale possessed, it seemed from the video that the aircraft jumped off the runway quite soon and abruptly. Wouldn’t immediately chopping the power have saved the day?
That was my thought as well. Chopping the throttle may saved his life. That being said, I don't think even a computer could have made sense out of that situation quickly enough to have done anything about it. he had seconds to react.
@@blancolirio Does each aviator have a "signature" style of take-off and at what point in a perfect controlled scenario would s/he know something is wrong? This harkens back to the time frame involved in this case.
@@400_billion_suns I may be mistaken, but it appears your perspective when comparing the 2 planes is not the same. The video, I believe, shows Snodgrass' plane from below and slightly aft. Whereas your example plane is viewed from slightly above and from the front. This may skew the angle of the elevator deflection.
@@michaelmeador2609 The perspective in the comparison aircraft image is indeed slightly different, but not by much. The time where I grabbed that screencap is after Snort's plane starts to roll left, toward the camera. We're seeing it from slightly "above" too because it's rolling toward us. If you compare the chord line of his wing (which is rotated almost perfectly level in the comparison image I made on the right) to what appears to be the elevator endcap, they are not parallel. If it was neutral elevator, they would be.
He could have, but it was already too late, by the time he could have reduced throttle, the plane was already in a stall, and too close to the ground to recover anyway.
That’s a good question he would have had to reduce power immediately he felt the aircraft climbing too steeply, there is a lot to process and very little time to action it. Which action or process to do or what is really happening just overloads the pilots reaction if he was at height and had more time on his side yes maybe he could have figured out something but in this situation it’s incredibly hard you need to pick one course of action and hope you picked wisely
There are multiple solutions to a known trim problem. You can simply bank the aircraft to allow the up trim to pull you around in circles while you troubleshoot, for example. The problem in this case is that he ran out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas all at the same time.
@@Voodoo350R well assuming it was the trim issue it’s a possibility yes, but your right he had very little time to process all that was happening and no height to help. I believe he was familiar with the solution your mentioned due to his flight experience with other aircraft (from what his ex military friends have posted elsewhere)
@@Rob-vv5yn Admittedly I'm speculating about it being a trim problem. It's highly improbable it was the gust lock as many have speculated because the design of the locks on this aircraft also locks the rudder when engaged so he would have had quite a time trying to taxi without rudder control. There are a thousand or more things it could have been and I'm looking forward to reading the report once it's out. Whatever the cause, it's a very unfortunate loss indeed. Godspeed Snort.
I believe it was a broken trim tab that caused Jimmy Leeward's P-51 to pitch up during the 2012 Reno Air Races. The plane soared up, banked left, came down parallel to the viewing stands, and crashed into the box seats in front of the stands at full speed. My wife and I were in the stands and "The Galloping Ghost" crashed right in front of us. With all the devastation, we were amazed that there was no fire (the smell of AVGAS was strong). A small item like a trim tab can have a profound influence on the control of a plane.
It os so easy to catch the mistakes of the left seat (pic) pilot. It is a whole other ball game flying the left seat and chatching your own. I learned this shooting approaches with another IFR pilot as safety pilot. We used to fly an approach to a full stop and change seats and fly the same approach. One of the simplest mistakes is forgetting to start your clock at the IAP. I remember once when i was a fresh instrument pilot doing this I kicked the pilot in command for not starting his clock. On the very next approach I was flying in the left seat and I forgot to start my clock. Yes, he caught it
A few years ago I encountered a runaway trim issue but the advantage that I had was that it was already reported but the squawk was vague so I decided to troubleshoot the issue at 5500 feet while on a cross country flight. The breaker was pulled and I pushed it back in. All was well for the first few seconds of engaging the auto pilot in the wings level mode. Then it suddenly aggressively pushed the nose over into what would have been a steep dive but I almost immediately pulled the breaker again when I realized the amount of back pressure required to prevent a very steep dive. Had this happened during takeoff and with no heads-up of the trim issue things would have unfolded in a different way.
I had a run-away trim on my Arrow on takeoff once. I was strong enough to force the yoke forward and disable the electric auto-trim, but it was surprising at the time. Could the front seat going back off the rails just push through that control panel with all the weight?
Ok I’m a taildragger pilot and I’ll chime in. Most pilots exercise the sticks normal travel to check the ailerons & elevator during engine warm up. I feel he lost elevator control from a cable, pushrod, or cotter pin. Something in the elevator control went wrong. My heart goes out to his family. Also most taildragger pilots are active on their stick controls when they taxi because you have to “ fly them all the way to the hangar “.
As one with a secondary interest in aviation, I think your trim explanation at 07:30 could have been useful earlier in the video. Regarding "getting it backwards" 08:48, Definitely experienced that several times myself in maintenance tasks. Strange how the (amazing) human mind can be confused by simple, binary systems.
You would think on something so critical as flight controls the harness would be designed so you CAN’T reverse the wiring. Say, M/F on one and F/M on the other.
@@MrJeffcoley1 I've found that many times engineers have a bit of tunnel vision on what they do, and simple things like this could easily get overlooked if you're not thinking about it.
Unfortunately, it looks like elevator control reversal due to maintenance (could be trim or the elevator itself, both have happened multiple times in the past). That would explain why the aircraft leapt off the ground initially (holding forward stick that is doing the opposite of holding the aircraft on the ground) and why it then pitched up so fast (as the pilot went full forward on the stick due to the aircraft leaping off the ground). Not likely this would be salvageable.
In retrospect, according to the NTSB, Mr. Brown was incorrect in saying the control lock made it impossible to taxi the aircraft; nor was the trim switch mis-rigged. Just pilot error.
In my profession, which is computer programming, I learned that it is virtually impossible to spot you’re own mistakes (aka bugs), even when you have your nose right on it. That’s is why you need at least one other person to go over it to check it, and this one will likely spot it right away. It’s amazing.
I was just thinking about this, I wonder if having a second set of eyes on all preflight checks just to make sure one isn’t accidentally skipped would be helpful.
I always liked to print my source code and read it with coffee in my rocking chair, pencil in hand. Works well to simulate the second pair of eyes.
Tired eyes that have been scanning for a problem such as a missing semicolon will never spot It but fresh eyes will spot it as if it were highlighted in bright orange
I was in that business for about 40 years. Finding my mistakes was usually done as I explained what was/is/should be happening. That's also why we had code walkthroughs.
As a cnc machinist who writes my own programs, I concur with this entirely.
Student here (59 hrs). Because of the recent reversed trim accidents, my preflights now include standing outside the a/c and working the trim wheel to make certain the tab goes the right way.
My dad always used a laminated sheet of paper with the pre flight written on it. He would grease pencil check marks as he went through it. I've never seen another pilot use a written check list, I'm sure there are some but it's rare in my experience.
Most plane don't have a high tek trim system something I would not be concerned with
I’m surprised people have not been doing this from the start.
@@cooperparts doesn’t matter, you check the trim on any rental. You have no idea if it’s reversed. A 10 sec check is worth it.
You will know in 300 feet if your trim is way off also I do not take off like he did in the video so if something is wrong I will know and yes I do fly extra330 after 800 1000 feet you can crank it up but not right off the ground the second the nose popped up it would of been shut down like they say bold pilots and old pilots and I am getting to old pilot that stunt flys it was in the controls and off the ground you have options in the air not as many lot of runway in front of that plane he was hotdoging and a problem arose
Value of this video: Understanding some of the possible circumstances of a fatal accident. Reinforcing the importance of inspections. Understanding a bit more about trim in this plane I am not familiar with. I’m listing these out to express my appreciation for these videos as a student pilot.
Well said!
All so true but FIRST thing ya do is reduce power on a pitch up like this..
Super job as always, Juan. I just watched the video yesterday where you theorized that the controls were locked. Coming back the next day with new information is top notch. Nothing but facts and integrity from everything I’ve seen you do, Juan. The world could use more like you. Keep up the excellent work!
I was working for Kal-Aero, Kalamazoo, Michigan in the early 1980's as an A&P/IA. The Air Zoo flew in the local airshow for the first time the "Flight of the Cats", that is ALL Grumman Cats were in the air. Dale of course was the driver in the Tomcat. Amazing formation of history.
We Salute! Captain Dale "Snort" Snodgrass...Fair Winds and Following Seas. You served your country with honor and courage.
Thanks!
Its so upsetting that someone who flew so many hours in some of the most extreme conditions lost his life flying this little plane. It really brings attention to the fact that no matter who you are, what you have flown and where you have flown it, each flight has potential to be the last one! Just because you've successfully flown for 50 years there's no guarantee. The only possible prevention is to be over-vigilant each and every flight! Always complete the entire checklist and be sure repairs are done properly. No such thing as too vigilant when flying!
RIP Snort, I hope your heaven has every plane you love to fly!
I remember a quote attributed to Bob Hoover in which he stated that the Piper Cub was the safest airplane ever built, and it could "just BARELY kill you!" Unfortunately, the devil is in the details, and even little details can have serious consequences.
It's possible he did not respect an airplane"so simple"... And treated it carelessly.
Shit happens
@@ghorn3136 snort would never do that!! He was my group commander at NAS Oceana. I knew him very well for mamy years.
There’s simply very very little room for error. You could have accumulated a million miles on a hundred different planes, but all it takes is one little mistake.
From what I have read the rudder works fine when the controls are locked and the plane can be taxied fine. The NTSB found the cause to be inadvertent locked controls.
I've done many many Owner assisted annuals and unassisted annuals. A couple of the unassisted ones were real cause for concern. Had a C182 in for annual and upon pick up found that the front seats had been switched now because the Adjustable seat was on the right I noticed it immediately when I sat in the left or pilots' seat. Same Owner different Plane different shop. When we went to pick up the plane naturally the logs weren't ready but every thing was done and ready to go. On the preflight found only 1 screw on all the inspection covers and panels. Found a bac of screws on a workbench with a tag with the N Number on it. Inspect inspect inspect after any maintenance or others flying your plane.
I have no reason to suspect anyone's motives but with the video why did no one be proactive with a fire extinguisher? Is there a protocol not to advance to the craft?
One Man ran to the scene and the others were unconcerned, sad world we live in .
@@larrybe2900 Yeah there seemed to be a distinct lack of urgency from almost everyone on the tarmac.
@@deerhunter7482 I guess they realised that the impact was unsurviveable and then when they noticed the flames may have thought it would blow up. In other words perhaps they didn't want to endanger themselves for no reason :/
@@larrybe2900 Most, if Not all airports have S.O.P.'s regarding what to do in case of an incident, and may state Only Certain personnel are to respond to an incident. Also if they were "airline" personnel they may not have known what the airport's policies are regarding incidents and/or may have limited training. Hopefully that answers your question.
After learning of this I took some time to learn about Dale. It’s always sad to learn of another Veteran slipping away; my heart really goes out to y’all in the aviation community.
I retired from the USAF several years ago after 26 years of active duty. (I was not a pilot). I remember reading a USAF publication regarding a C-141 doing a night takeoff from (I think) McGuire AFB. Tower personnel were watching the Starlifter as it accelerated down the runway. When it became airborne, it was observed to go into a very high angle of climb. The aircraft continued to increase it's climb angle and to all watching it was apparent the Starlifter was just seconds from a power-on stall. Then unexpectedly, the aircraft turned on its side at a high angle of bank and began turning in tight circles above the airfield. As it flew in a circle it was gaining altitude. (Tower personnel reported it was difficult to see the aircraft except for the navigation lights). The aircraft continued circling, it eventually leveled off several thousand feet up and only then reported MayDay. The aircraft returned to base safely and everyone was ok. Later investigation revealed a "run away trim" problem on the elevators. The pilots were able to save the aircraft only because they had the presence of mind to put the aircraft on its side BEFORE it stalled. This allowed the aircraft to keep flying. While the aircraft was in the midst of this emergency, the flight engineer was able to access the trim switch and rip away its wiring. I believe that is what was said at the time. All this to say....is this a suitable solution for private pilots in smaller aircraft? Ie., uncommanded high angle takeoff you immediately put the aircraft on it's side and begin circling rather than just continuing the climb until you stall out? IF I were a pilot, I think I'd definitely consider it. But, I suppose you would have to train for this until the response becomes automatic. You would not have time to think about it when it was occurring. Perhaps Juan knows of this incident and might remember some of the facts more accurately than I do. This is incident is very similar to the comment and scenario described by Manny Puerta in an earlier post.
The problem there is, as the bank angle increases so does stall speed. In other words, if the aircraft is already at or near stall speed, increasing the bank angle will only accelerate that condition.
@@wendyvic4046this is correct assuming positive G is left on the wing. If the wing is unloaded towards 0 G and the bank is started the nose will come down without stalling. Pilot performed a nose high unusual attitude recovery and saved the day.
@@zachmulligan11you are absolutely correct. You just let the nose come down on it own. I do this all the time in a military trainer for some of the advanced flights on the syllabus. It will achieve the same result in a large airplane.
Without being one of the guessers as to the probable cause, I can contribute a related scenario.
Back a long time ago, when flying civilian Herc’s, we developed a scenario in the simulator where runaway trim occurred in both pitch and yaw. We found that if we did have uninterrupted runaway up trim to the stop we could roll into a 45 degree bank, lowering flaps as speed decreased, and because of the normal back pressure required the airplane was flyable with full nose up elevator trim. Of course, in reality we would never allow the trim to run that far, but it was a good training scenario for the crews. As long as you had fuel you had time to trouble shoot and resolve the unresolved elev trim issue while in a controllable, banked turn. The airplane was unflyable with wings level.
I’m not saying rolling into a steep bank right after takeoff in that airplane would be the solution, but the concept, tested in one’s own aircraft, might be something to explore. Certainly, keeping the wings level in that situation is not an option. Admittedly, the entire event happened extremely quickly with minimal chance for recovery for even someone with Snort’s experience.
Whether related to this or not, my mantra just prior to each takeoff, remains: FLAPS, FUEL (fuel selector, mixture, boost/fuel fuel pump(s), TRIM as a final check before beginning my takeoff roll. Obviously, this is in addition to a proper Before Takeoff Checklist being accomplished. It is not a replacement.
Manny,
Exactly the procedure I was thinking of. We practiced a runaway up pitch trim after take off in our Learjet and Falcon Sims, and rolling into a steep bank works. One can then disconnect the primary pitch trim and engage the secondary trim, and get things back under control.
Of course I'm not that familiar with this aircraft's trim system, and by all accounts Dale was an excellent pilot, very experienced in all kinds of aircraft, so I'll be very interested as to the cause. Always sad to loose a brother aviator.
One other thing. I always assumed that any aircraft coming out of maintenance needs an extremely thorough preflight, to include all the control surfaces. I went so far as to make up a written "Post Maintenance Checklist" which took me well over an hour to complete. Can't be too careful.
@@johncox4273 Good for you on the post-maintenance preflight. Maintenance induced failures can certainly be an issue. I don’t take anything for granted, either.
The other thing I might mention is a go around from a full nose up trim, full flap, short field approach in a 185 at sea level. There is usually no electric trim, so if you are solo you’re in for a struggle. I train to only add 25” of manifold pressure (to reduce the pitch up moment), flaps to 30 or 20, push like hell and trim. It’s quite an exercise and an eye-opener if you’ve never done it before.
I read somewhere of a DC3 carrying heavy cargo which slipped back on take off, Both pilots were JUST able to keep control against the aft CG but not for long before their strength ran out, so they rolled it into a steep turn once high enough and that gave them time to move the cargo forward again and restore the CG.
Also, on Concorde line training with first-time Conc pilots they were briefed to level off at 1500' after t/o and many bust that level such was the rocket-like performance at light weight. One of them told me "I used to get it turning - that cooled things down a bit!".
@@johncox4273 All of which assumes you KNOW what is going to happen, and have a pre-planned response in your mind ready to go. That plane leapt up and went vertical, stalled and crashed in a matter of seconds. He had time to realize it was crashing but little more.
@@MrJeffcoley1 It did not go vertical. It did not stall.
Hey Juan, here's what happened to Jerry a few years ago. He took off from a small West Texas airport, having done a very thorough and uneventful pre-flight on the Cherokee 140. After an uneventful takeoff and climb-out to 3000 AGL, he executed a standard rate right hand turn, only to discover a stuck elevator! He fought for a couple of minutes, using the throttle to control altitude and attitude, deciding that he would not be able to land the plane in its current state, he decided to pull really hard in an attempt to un-jam the elevator, and to his surprise, there was a pop, and the control freed up and began to operate normally! What had happened is that a mud dauber had built a sizeable mud nest on the elevator cable, and the vibration of flight loosened it and it slid down the cable and wedged into the pulley! A very UNPLEASANT surprise, according to Jerry, followed by a tear down of the inspection panels and subsequent removal of a lot more mud nests!
Wow !
😳
Those mud dauber wasps have brought down full sized passenger jets. They usually build the mud nests in the Pitot tubes, which leads to false readings in the instruments.
This accident is a real shame. I always said to other pilots in my charter department and students alike, you never know when something is going to happen to you. Those of us that have had potentially fatal things happen to us are the lucky ones. It doesn't take much and you just don't know how you're going to react to something unless you've been in some life or death situations before.
When I was first flying VFR freight charter in a Lance, I had the seat go all the way back on rotation (I was empty going out to load the freight at another airport). Even at 6'3", I could barely reach the yoke. Thankfully I had enough sense to not grab it. I also checked the trim before every flight, even if I was on the way back home after being on the ground for only an hour. Also, the Lance and Saratoga series are pretty nose heavy, so the abrupt change in CG didn't have that much of an effect.
Just happened to be after the aircraft stabilized in a climb that I could grab onto the sidewall and pull myself forward.
I think things like this happen a lot more than most people realize, and the ones that are unlucky or the circumstances were just wrong when the event happened, are guys like Snodgrass.
I feel terrible for his family and friends. Have an amazing career like this guy had, not to mention his service to the country and in 30 seconds it can be lights out permanently.
Training, experience and common sense is what will keep you alive. Luck has nothing to do with it. Oh and use the damn checklist.
@@einzelganger1049 Luck actually has a lot to do with it. I suppose I'm using luck and circumstance interchangeably, but it has everything to do with it.
Wrong place, wrong time.
@@Airplane_Willy In your world.
One of my first thoughts was ‘runaway trim’ Juan. Been in a big turbo prop when it happened. Luckily it was a multi crew aircraft and the pilot non-flying was quickly able to override the action. Turned out it was a faulty trim switch on the left control column .
R.I.P ‘Snort’ .
My first thought as well.
Don't know how you guys choose to fly when a cheap malfunctioning part can spell disaster. Couldn't pay me enough to get on a plane even once, never mind on the regular.
Me either mate .
@@barrybarnes96 And yet you get into a car where your life is often in the hands of other people whom you wouldn't trust to buy you coffee.
@@barrybarnes96 Pahahahahahahahahaha
I saw him fly his F14 along time ago at an airshow in NY. Godspeed my friend
His life will have meaning to anyone who gets to know how competent he was and yet this still happened.
im a 70 year old retired commercial pilot with over 11,000 hours and I put my t shirt on backways most mornings
@@BarryAir God bless you! Keep on my man, let the youngins know that being checked over is no shame and we will have lived a worthy life.
I had the same thing happen to me, when I was still flying. The shop manager was right seat with me and I had a similar expletive. I asked my right seater help me to force the nose down. We returned to the airport under emergency. When I pulled the thrust lever back, it helped tremendously.
Thanks Juan, you always do a great job, been recommending you to my pilot friends around the airport. So sad to lose snort, such an accomplished aviator. Again, Thanks Juan, great job as always.
The post maintenance warning is genuine. I had both air start units on an EMB-145 fail when after a service/inspection, oil was not replaced in the starter gear boxes. They fried on the fourth cycle(S), blowing shards and sparks out the air exhaust. Thanks Juan
I'm not a pilot and have never flown in a small aircraft, I believe every pilot should watch your reports of the tragic crashes. It could save a life. Keep reporting all the things you report on.
Lot of brainiac know-it-alls out there flyin', that the problem. Don't know how to get the rubber to the road when it matters most. Just look at twin engine pilots that have augered in recently. The most critical situation at take-off, especially so with twin engine plane, 1 engine fails, and no if, ands, or buts, must level off and turn to good engine side, to gain air speed and not stall bad engine wing, but none of them did that. They do just opposite of that and I not even a pilot. Watching all these video's has made me more scared to fly than ever. I especially like the AirBus flight with one pilot pushing forward on stick and other pulling back on stick at full throttle. They flat stalled that plane for 3 1/2 minutes into ocean..Scary stuff right there.
Thanks for the update JB. I'm finding this crash particularly difficult to deal with. Snort was a true legend, what a tragedy. :(
Thanks for the updates! Sad such a professional got into trouble. I'm sure he'd want the community to learn as much as we can from this tragedy.
Thanks for your report. Sorry for this loss. Hope this one gets figured out. Condolences. RIP.
Such a tragedy. Such an experienced pilot, (in a hurry, asking for take off on ground freq) such a nice aircraft. The ATC audio is very revealing and chilling at the same time.
Juan Brown. As an Avionics-Instrument tech, back in the 1970's I worked an elevator trim system problem on a T-39. It was written up as "works backwards." It did, in fact, work backwards.
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The shop who previously worked a trim problem on this airplane, did not understand how the trim worked. (Was either Aero Repair, or the Electric Shop) They said if the trim tab moved DOWN, the nose of the plane would go down, reducing the AOA - WRONG!
In Normal operation, as you know Juan, if the trim tab moves DOWN, the elevator is deflected UP, increasing the airplane's AOA. If the tab is moved UP, the elevator is deflected DOWN decreasing the airplane's AOA. Have seen this with the rudder trim on other T-39's. May be the cause of the crash. The aircraft maintenance forms should show any work done in that area. Thanks. N6395T (I'm still going with locked controls - from something.)
The trim disconnect and radio transmission leads me to believe iit was probably a trim issue. Thanks Juan.
RIP Snort.
Excellent! Thanks for the update! What a loss! RIP Capt. Snodgrass!
How about the fire extinguisher, visible at 0:33 is dislodged during embarkation/disembarkation or adjustment of shoulder harness, rolls back and jams under the horizontal torque tube, visible at 2:00 that connects the rear stick to the front stick.
The torque tube rises when the stick is back, lowers when the stick goes forward. Anything jammed under there would prevent the pilot getting the stick forward.
In that case anything loose in rear cockpit could do same thing.
@@kenclark2848 Correct
Excellent presentation! Minor addition: If the Marchetti's control lock is the same as the Bird Dog's, it not only prevents the rudder pedals from moving, it also depresses the brakes, preventing the plane from even rolling.
I spent the past six years flying Caravans. Never once did I use the electric trim for fear of a runaway trim, something one of our pilots experienced. Too, the manual trim gives you a more intimate feel for the airplane. On a practical note, if you use it a lot it's going to eventually fail, and that little switch costs about $500.
It was reported that he was going camping. The Marchetti has a lot of elevator throw and while I can see flap extension, I can't see any elevator deflection in a frame-by-frame view. Admittedly, it is grainy and it would be hard to say for sure. Another person who knew the aircraft before he bought it, reported there was no cloth boot around the bottom of the rear control stick and floor. Maybe....only guessing, he had some camping gear in the rear and you can speculate from there. Perhaps that can explain his last Tx as he was pushing the control stick and hitting the mike button while he was leaning backwards trying to free a jam. It has happened before and I know a couple Comanche pilots that couldn’t get a green light on retraction, returned to the field only to find out a Jep or lunch bag stopped the Johnson bar from traveling the full distance.
I think this is a more likely cause considering how nice that airplane looked. Of course just because there is a lot of money in it doesn’t mean it was maintained well…
@@ethanhiggins4887 Trim issues happen but they are rare. Even with full power, the airflow/pressure at slow speeds wouldn’t produce, in most cases, a trim induced control issue you couldn’t over power or merely stop by turning off the master switch and trim manually. Someone once told me to not overlook the more likely and mundane explanation in favor of a sexy and more technical/complex possibility. I couldn’t see any control surface deflections that you would expect in this kind of accident unless the control movement was restricted some how. BUT, everything I have said is just speculation. Guilty as charged.
What a tragic, unnecessary loss.
Regarding the cause (pilot error, given his overall flight hours and history can be ruled out I guess at this point)........I really love Italy, it's people, culture and landscapes! They are the greatest designers on earth in my view, also in the technical arena but if the product says "made in ....." go after ELECTRICS! I think you have a solid lead there already. (had a few cars...great motors but Jesus, the electrics usually get temperamental once you cross the Alps northwards). Many thanks for your great investigative work Mr. Brown. Always good and enlightening to listen to you. Stay safe.
The Siai-Marchetti was a foreign manufactured military aircraft licensed in the experimental exhibition category. Flight characteristics may or may not conform to our standard category airworthiness category.
That has nothing to do with this. This is a copy of a Cessna Birddog with a turbine engine. It is very conventional in handling.
U completely wrong ! Siai marchetti is a well designed Italians airplane , capable, and civilian aircraft ! Also military trainer versions, which I flew it ….most likely that was a control lock mechanism……could be that he didn’t disconnect the alevator control lock …
Okay, as a former aircraft mechanic in the USAF, if we had to work on, or replace stuff on flight control systems, we were REQUIRED to ops check flight control function with one in the flight deck and one on the ground to ensure flight controls were moving in correct direction and deflection angles. Maybe GA needs to REQUIRE two man ops checks if they don't already, which would be insane.
Extremely aft cg and over loading produces an impossible nose pitch up. It happened to me in a Cessna 180 flying sky divers. 5 guys with 5 parachutes in a 180. On take off roll I was pushing full force forward to the point of possibly breaking the yoke and the tail would not lift up. I look to the rear and see one of the sky divers had slid back past the baggage area into the tail cone.
Yikes!
Yeah, I'm thinking cg issue as well, but we just have to wait for the investigation results.
I don't think that was a factor. This cockpit is tiny. Not much distance from the back of the pilot's seat to the end of the cockpit. He stowed camping equipment in the rear seat. I don't think it could have seriously affected the COG.
@@pookatim it sure looks like it would be difficult to put this plane in an aft cg. Unless you put 500 lbs in the rear seat. The pilot seems to be sitting about on the cg. I agree it looks like cg was not the problem.
The argument against a CG problem seems legit.
The arguments for some other causes seem weak. I haven't listened to the tape. Any chance a heart attack led to the crash?
I love following Juan as he plows through the data to answer all the questions people raise regarding these accidents. Some people obviously misunderstand and accuse him of being premature in his conclusions when they don't understand that they are witnessing an investigaion in progress. It's fascinating to watch professional pilots like Juan and Dan Gryder wade through all the emerging information to let us in on the "probable cause" of the accident without making us wait two years for an NTSB guess that may not be any more revealing. Keep up the good work, Juan!
There are some still shots of the tail of the plane as the fire is being extinguished post-crash. An expanded screenshot appears to show deflected trim tabs.
As an aircraft mechanic it's my worst nightmare to cause an accident and death, I had super Instructors at Reedley College Aero, you did it right or you were gone. 👍👍👍👍👍❤🇺🇸
In the video, it looked like none of the control surfaces moved?
Yep, I don't buy this explanation, if it was the trim we still would have seen some movement in the elevator.
Thanks for this update, a great many have been concerned with what happened.
Juan I truly respect, enjoy and learn from your videos. Unlike certain other channels, it’s never about you and you’re always respectful of the people involved regardless of who they are.
I read a comment over another video from a owner he stated this aircraft requires lot of trim up to land it, and if that trim was left like that with the flaps on take off at 30 Degrees the 400 HP turbine engine will cause it to nose up rapidly. If you look at the crash video you can clearly see he does have flaps down to some degree not sure how much on take off.
I saw Dale's F-14 Supertomcat demo at MacDill AFB in Tampa decades ago and thought he was one of the best I have seen. And I understand he was a terrific guy to be around.But, when the big guy upstairs says it is time to come home it is going to happen.
I think I read where the WWII Focke Wolf 190 had an electric trim switch, which used to fail and runaway occasionally. The switch failure got one of the post WWII USAF test pilots that was doing post war evaluations on the aircraft’s performance (and doing bond and goodwill tours). Not a new problem and very dangerous, even for very experienced pilots (especially a 72 year old pilot who doesn’t think as fast as he used to).
Interesting….one would wonder that a light aircraft, even if modified to utilize a powerful turboprop, could be certified in which pitch authority could not override pitch trim….and if so…a possible emergency procedure would be to chop power? Yes, understand everything happened fast….. Also possible pitch was not set for take-off, and still set in the last position for landing (with flaps)? And what about a weight & balance issue, mis-calculation …something just too heavy placed in the aft baggage area (assume there is an aft storage area).
Juan, Thanks for keeping us informed on this one. I gave Charlie Hilliard a final good luck from the radio of the DC 3 jump plane just before he started his fatal show at Sun n fun 1996. I was at Kissimmee two years later when two of the Red barron team collided in 98 and I was at the French Connection practice in Flagler when they collided. I knew Dale and talked with him several times in St Augustine. I hadn’t talked with him in probably 20 years. This was a shock. I hope the NTSB gets it right.
Thanks Juan, excellent job. Keep up your great work.
It seems like that there's more of these types of crashes ,especially after takeoff . Maybe , take more time on your check list . Even triple check,it's your life ,folks that are with you ,and the unknowing public . Thanks Juan for time and info on these often unreported accidents . ✈✈✈
During my time working on A-4's runaway trim off an aircraft carrier was a serious concern. So much that a manual trim disable switch was installed on A-4's that were carrier-based. My thought is a Naval Aviator would understand runaway trim and his memory circuits and muscle memory would -- Perhaps more than any other type of aviator -- correct the situation almost instantly.
Man this has been a tough year. Thanks for your content always blanco! Rip snod and especially my friend Brad Launchpad Marzari. Lost too many good ones again
To me (a non-pilot) the really horrifying thing about this accident is the speed at which events happened. From the wheels leaving the ground to impact is 10 seconds at most. It seems most unlikely it would have been immediately obvious something was wrong so the time to react and take corrective action was less than that. Even if the assumption that corrective action can be started in 4 seconds is realistic it looks to me that would have been too late to be effective.
I am not a pilot. With that said, I was listening to the details of what is on the stick, the trim control that Juan mentions (at about 3 minutes in) as being a possible contributor to the nose up pitch and the radio controls nearby. In the video after atc clears Dale for take off he acknowledges. She immediately comes back to remind him to switch to another frequency. If the video is synced with the audio he was already moving. He acknowledges the radio freq. change then the AT Controller comes on the radio again and repeats the clearance for take off. Dale, about to lift off, acknowledges this final transmission. Then the aircraft immediately starts the steep climb. While fighting to control the stall, Dale shouts out twice inadvertently heard over the radio just before impact.
It seems to me that this last exchange of comms from atc was not only unnecessary, and could have waited until after take off was achieved safely, but placed Dales attention at the wrong time to his radio rather than the trim control switch close by.
Instead of manipulating the trim he's activating the radio.
I could be wrong but, I got a sinking feeling Juan made the connection for the possibility that the trim switch along with the radio switch made the holes line up that took Dale's life.
Video intentionally omits pauses longer than one second. It’s in the video description. There was actually 36 seconds of silence from Dale’s takeoff confirmation to his final heartbreaking words. The video shortens that to six seconds, giving the false impression he and the tower were still communicating during that silence.
Sooooo, it was the control lock
Appreciate your attention to detail in explaining this system and possible problems!
Looking at the frame by frame shots, he definitely has flaps down to some extent. When you step through the frames and even seeing the post accident pictures, the trim tabs look in place and the elevator was neutral. There is a few frames of the plane in the sharp left bank and you can clearly see the elevators. Really makes me wonder if the elevator was completely stuck or bound in some manner. My understanding is that there is a 4K video of the accident. Hopefully they find the cause of the accident. Hate to see a pilot of his caliber lose his life this way.
Not sure why the flaps were down on takeoff - at least to that extent. They were still evidently down as the plane turned but were they still so far down? Agreed there doesn't seem to be any movement of any other control surfaces. Would the flaps have added to the pitch up moment? Sure the plane was a STOL but this was a takeoff to get somewhere in a hurry so why flaps? The video also suggests he took off well before getting clearance - unless the audio and video are out of sync.
@@peterknight4692 He got clearance two times. At 0:38 still rolling then coming to full stop at 0:42, then a second time at 0:53 when he was already taking off. I think he said "... up ..." as in showing up on the ATC frequency and getting the clearance a second time. But that is my speculation as I don't understand him and procedures only merely.
@@peterknight4692 Extending flaps causes a nose down moment.
@@KB4QAA Ok, though I got this from the FAAsafety.gov website on flap usage:-
"Flap deflection of up to 15° primarily produces lift with minimal drag. The airplane has a
tendency to balloon up with initial flap deflection because of the lift increase. The nose down
pitching moment, however, tends to offset the balloon.
• Flap deflection beyond 15° produces a large increase in drag. In high-wing airplanes, a
significant nose up pitching moment can occur because the resulting downwash increases
the airflow over the horizontal tail."
That looked a lot more than 15 degrees of flap.
@@peterknight4692 The audio and video are badly - and deliberately; read the video description - out of sync. They show about 18 seconds from takeoff to final words/crash when the actual radio transmission recording shows there was silence for 35-36 seconds between his acknowledgment of takeoff ti his final heartbreaking words. So he did not rush takeoff but was silent for about 18 seconds before taking off.
Very plausible explanation of what happened. Thanks!
Good, and, the control lock also applies the brakes.
Not on the Marchetti, only on the Cessna.
In Skydiving we double check everything ourselves, then we get our buddy to check us out again that's saved lives, crazy stuff gets missed if you don't get that buddy check. before we board the plane.
It's happened and will happen again, the pull-up cord left in the loop that closes the bag for the deployment pin or ripcord system. This totally prevents the chutes deployment. Guarantees a reserve ride and amazingly guys base jumping have died with that one. Leg straps or chest strap not fastened, people have fallen out of the harness on opening the chute and a lot more. You can always use another pair of eyes and a full check.
It's something GA pilots don't do but I can think of several who might still be alive if they had.
yeah and even then on my first duo jump, my tandem harness broke as i was just about to go out the plane attached with that harness to the parachute man
It just snapped clean off. Luckily while I was still in the plane.
I did go on a second jump right after landing with the plane, and did a solo not to long after there i had my share of complications as well . sticky followed by a huge twist and the radio didn't work either , good fun all around
Wouldn’t pulling the power lower the nose?
yes...
I was wondering the same thing, it would at the very least have reduced the left-turning tendency. I just don't think there was enough time. Assuming Snort's left hand is on the throttle during take-off, and the stick in his right is giving too much resistance, my guess is he'd move his left hand to the stick to apply force with both hands, leaving the throttle set at full-forward. I've never attempted a power-reduction during power-on stall practice. I don't know what that would do.
Thanks for the update, Juan.
The B737 MCAS fiasco taught everyone that trim forces depend strongly on airspeed. It is not clear that mis-trimming would exceed the range of control forces at takeoff speed (07:15)
I think what the MAX accidents inform, is don't get into a battle with the Stab using elevator trim. Not a fair fight.
Gordon... Not exactly. The Stab trim increased (ND) beyond the elevator authority to trim the airplane. They were doomed at just about any airspeed. The crew kept adding elevator, and ran out of authority for NU.....
@@billmecorney In the Ethiopian Max crash, the takeoff power setting was never reduced, all the way through the pitch excursions, all the way to impact… 737s in general experience an enormous pitch up when adding power, especially if you’re not ready for it and ON the nose down trim AS the power comes up…
With 18k hours of time in several models of the 737, I can tell you that if you’re trimmed properly for a landing, then hit the TOGA switches without starting down trim, you’re gonna go for an interesting pitch up ride…
Hit those switches twice gets you full thrust, and that is nearly impossible to control with the elevators alone, I’ve had a new FO that I was giving OE to do that, and I literally was hitting the full elevator nose down stop before the elevator trim started helping get the nose down…
I can’t see where Snort made any noticeable control inputs, even with the video slowed down and magnified…
I think when the controller asked him to come up on the 119.4 tower freq, it looked to me as if he pulled the power back for a moment, then pushed it up again, I kind of think that some of his camping gear fell in front of the stick and wedged it back during that power change…
@@joer5571 That is my surmise also. A bag or camp stove lodged in front of the aft stick.
It was the new engines on the MAX that drove the installation of MCAS. Maneuvering Control Augmentation System.... Engineers feared takeoff would lead to pitch excursions and possible stall. The cause of Lion and Ethiopian accidents was lack of awareness of the major changes.
As a 737 pilot, do you think the MAX should require a new Type certificate?
Im not a pilot in the real world although i have flown hundreds of hours in realistic simulations. Your explanation of runaway trim makes the most sense to me given dales experience level and training. I’ve felt all along that this must be an electrical or mechanical malfunction somewhere in his controls.
It happened so fast I think it would have been difficult to recover even if you were expecting it.
yes!
@@blancolirio This happen to me in a Partenavia P.68 when i first started working.The only thing I could do was to reduce the power. ended up doing a circruit at a very uncomfortable low speed and land at Whyalla South Australia. I will always remember it, Run away trim.
@@magnusbadger6532 completely different airplane. You can absolutely out-muscle the trim on this plane. Especially at low speeds.
There are some images floating around where you can see pretty clearly that Dale had full down elevator just prior too and during the stall, I wonder what he had on board for cargo?
Camping gear. He was leaving for a camping trip.
@@pookatim i know im curious about specifics weight etc
There’s also a clear picture of the “general” neutral trim tab after impact online. Google Snodgrass airplane crash pictures. Not sure if the impact could have changed trim tab configuration? Still appears to me as heavy aft cg? I personally have a hard time talking about this stuff sometimes, but Juan, I agree with you. If we can learn from this, then it might save someone else’s life in the process, and THAT makes it worth talking about. Fly safely guys and ladies. I pray for this man’s soul and strength for his family.
Non-pilot asks: No matter how powerful the trim tab force is, how could it possibly overpower the application of full down elevator, which looks like it has at least ten times the surface area? And why would the pilot even be fiddling with trim settings on takeoff? I thought trim was for making fine adjustments to the plane during level flight?
I'm not a pilot either. The trim tabs seem to have a mechanical advantage by being out at the trailing edge of the elevator whereas the man-powered elevator control would be applied closer to the elevator pivot point. Just guessing because pilots here are seeming to point out the forces that the trim tabs can have. But it seems to me that system design should always allow the direct elevator controls to override any incorrect trim setting. If not, "trim" is not a very good term for these things - something more like "alternate elevator" control would be closer to what they do.
The trim tab is at the end of the elevator, which gives the tab a lot of leverage to move the elevator. Fighting against it will be dfficult or impossible.
Trim has to be set correctly for every phase of the flight: if you have ever stick your hand out of your car window, you know how much force air can exert even at speeds very low for an aircraft
Christopher28fair Yes, both for level flight and high speed and for the gross adjustments needed for takeoffs and landings that are at lower speeds. Also for climbing with more power and descending with reduced power.
Notice that the trim tab doesn't control the aeroplane directly, it controls (or biases) the elevator which controls the aeroplane. The pilot cannot physically apply enough force (through the stick) to oppose the force applied to the elevator by the trim tab in this case. Imagine a demon standing on the horizontal stabilizer, heaving upwards on the back of the elevator. The pilot cannot physically move the elevator in the direction they want to. If they could, yes the aircraft would probably be controllable despite the trim tab.
The trim tab is used in all regimes of flight, from take-off to landing. Any changes in power or attitude usually require trim changes. Trim (when it's working correctly) is used to negate forces that the pilot would otherwise have to continuously apply to the controls. Look for cockpit videos of small planes and note when the pilot is cranking what is usually, in older types, a wheel-like control, before lining up for takeoff, in the climb after takeoff, beginning descent etc.
If the switch or system was faulty, he may not have touched it at all. The trim tabs move the whole elevator (see the graphic) So it's not elevator vs trim tab, it's trim tab force vs stick. Generally it is often able to be overcome by the pilot, but that as reported, that may not be the case in this aircraft.
In WWII, the British Lysander, had a number of accidents because full nose up trim couldn't be overcome by stick forces on a short takeoff. It was the high wing fixed gear plane used to pick up and drop off spies in France.
Thinking a piece of his camping gear tumbled in front of the stick when he rotated, and wiggled tighter as he tried to regain control the stick .
like something getting under your foot pedals on your car, no matter how hard you mash down, not much is going to happen.
it's kind of like skydiving, you can drop a few balls you're juggling and no harm, no foul, but at certain times everything has to be done by the numbers. (body position at pull time and flaring the canopy.)
Hard for me to imagine - no matter how much thrust from engine and such a slow airspeed - that he couldn’t push elevator full forward to overcome any trim setting. With lots of stuff stowed in rear (seat) likelihood of snag on rear control stick seems high to me. Sad.
At about :59 on the What You Haven't Seen video it looks like the starboard aileron is deflected upwards momentarily, like an instinctual correction to counter the roll.
Do you have a link to this video?
Thanks for the update. Even my age addled brain can follow your reasoning...great teacher! Journey mercies.
As always Juan, excellent respectful reporting and analysis of the accident. One thing I noticed by watching the video you linked to that adds to your theory of the control lock being engaged is that the tail of the plane was never raised prior to takeoff. As you know, pushing forward on the stick to raise the tail off the ground is a typical method of takeoff on a tail dragger. The fact that that was not done may also indicate the presence of a control lock.
In slow motion, you see no movement of the controls on the tail.
Is there any possibility loose or unsecured cargo in the rear seat engaged elevator trim from the rear?
If that’s a PTT / ICS switch beside the cookie hat I will throw in another possibility. If it’s a 2 position switch (fwd for XMIT back for ICS) it is possible he was activating that instead of the trim switch. Thinking he was trimming down but actually transmitting. Hence the swearing on the radio. Switchology in a new aircraft can bite you!
Wasn’t that new to him. He flew that airplane 23 times between May 26 and June 30, when he flew it to Lewiston airport for maintenance.
First of all, many thanks for your always great videos. I learn something by watching them every time. I am just a private pilot but the way I have learned is to verify the trim operation. It was part of my checklist. On my first plane, a Cessna 150F, I could turn around an see it while operating the control wheel. On my Diamond DA20, I have LEDs indicator for the actual position of the trim. I have been flying for 18 years and been verifying the trim function as part of the checklist.
the way the plane pitched up so steadily... maybe a bad trim setting caused the initial abrupt over-rotation -- causing heavy cargo to slide back --- thus preventing a recovery even w full down elevator. Maybe his muscle memory was used to a certain "nudge back" of the stick to get this rotation-attitude, but w a bad trim setting that usual nudge cause way more nose up that what he expected... and once some heavy cargo slid back, not even full down elevator could make a difference. I would try to zoom the video images & see if there was full down elevator deflection after the over-rotation (might suggest cargo slid back after the initial unexpected over-rotation).
@@tammyhefner8971 -- The image quality isn't the greatest, but if that's true... then maybe an elevator cable failure. The flight profile looks a lot like a severe aft-CG incident, but maybe the flight control failure caused the initial over-rotation, which then caused all loose cargo to immediately slide aft. Sad how quickly it all went bad.
@@400_billion_suns -- yeah, that looks a lot like down elevator... strongly suggests some kind of severe aft-CG... Maybe he wasn't carrying "cargo" per se. But something heavy appears to have shifted far aft on rotation. Maybe he was honestly practicing a sporty rotation & there was an unexpected shift in whatever luggage or materials he was carrying on board.
The elevator appears to be in exact trail position of the horizontal stab all the way to the crash. It never moves, and is exactly lined up with the horizontal stab.
Good report with excellent research. Thank You.
In the USAF in my time, 1968-1988, flying the RC-130A, AC-130A and as an Undergraduate Pilot Training Instructor in the T-38A, I recall runway trim exercises. To deal with high pitch forces, banking the aircraft while following other acft specific procedures, was the way to lower the pitch angle to avoid a stall. Of course, it is unknown for now if Dale had flight control issues. Nose trim can only do so much at high pitch angles.
I was watching the video of the crash yesterday while you where posting and to my eye it looked to be an identical profile as the 747 crash in Bagram right up to the nose over. That crash was of course caused by a load shift causing damage to the elevator control, and I cannot imagine a severe cargo shift like this in a light plane so I believe you hit the nail on the head with a diagnosis of a control system failure.
I got the same impression... they'll absolutely have to rule out a load shift. Because the initial pitch-up was so abrupt, that might have caused a chain reaction: (a) something caused the plane to over-rotate and (b) as a result, a bunch of heavy cargo went full aft. In that case, not even full down elevator would make a difference.
A runaway trim would also cause that. Unless the person was carrying cargo it’s already been ruled out.
@@JediOfTheRepublic -- Could be. But I personally have never flown a GA aircraft were full up trim makes it impossible to force the nose down, especially at low speeds. Granted, that turbine propwash must be very strong. But if it were really full nose-up trim, I think we'd have seen some kind of oscillation (even slight) to show he was fighting it. Again, you may be right & the manufacturer will have to weigh in -- since their flight test records will include adverse trim tests. But I also think there's a possibility something (maybe not cargo) slid back when he first rotated. He may have intended a normal 'sporty' rotation & then maybe something heavy (suitcase, duffle bag, whatever) slid too far aft.
@@pdquestions7673 Unfortunately if the cargo shifted and caused a CG divergence, it shifted all the way forward on impact. The empennage cover is (apparently, need confirm) canvas with velcro, but I also see a 1979 model's images with a tinned rear cargo compartment and some webbing net.
That compartment appears to run almost to the front of the vertical stab.
@@mfree80286 -- hopefully there's enough evidence to do a good investigation & infer a probable cause that's meaningful. Just have to hope for the best & also hope people learn as much as they can from each accident like this.
Great video and it makes total sense, especially knowing that he pressed the talk button.
Just watched Dale Snodgrass demonstrating the F14 in the 90’s he was an awesome pilot. Such a horrible way to go out but he was doing what he loved.
As someone who has thought that they would die imminently several times while doing what I love, that thought doesn’t come to mind in the moment. It always just sucks really bad.
Had a runaway trim incident in my old Cherokee Six. Thankfully I was landing and low power, and was able to overpower the elevator trim (it was full down) and didn’t have time to pull the breaker or troubleshoot. Made the landing. Taxied directly to the maintenance hangar.
Might just be me but I don’t see any control surfaces moving in the video.
It's not just you. But the video resolution isn't great and it's riddled with compression artifacts, so it's entirely plausible that the control surfaces were moving but the video quality isn't sufficient to discern that movement. It's also plausible that the control surfaces really didn't move.
I would think the NTSB could recreate the incident safely on-site on same time line & determined quality of tower video
Rule out speculation of control surface movement
I experienced a misrigged elevator trim system in a Grob 103 glider upon take-off under aero-tow for a ferry flight CKE to CVH. Luckily stick control easily overpowered any trim adjustment and I figured out the problem. I should have released and landed to give the glider back to the mechanic/repair station but I continued on tow to my destination where the glider became involved in a law suit!
Juan I have a question. Considering the absolute excellent flying skills that Dale possessed, it seemed from the video that the aircraft jumped off the runway quite soon and abruptly. Wouldn’t immediately chopping the power have saved the day?
possibly...but how would you know there was a problem yet...
That was my thought as well. Chopping the throttle may saved his life.
That being said, I don't think even a computer could have made sense out of that situation quickly enough to have done anything about it. he had seconds to react.
@@blancolirio
Does each aviator have a "signature" style of take-off and at what point in a perfect controlled scenario would s/he know something is wrong? This harkens back to the time frame involved in this case.
@@400_billion_suns I may be mistaken, but it appears your perspective when comparing the 2 planes is not the same. The video, I believe, shows Snodgrass' plane from below and slightly aft. Whereas your example plane is viewed from slightly above and from the front. This may skew the angle of the elevator deflection.
@@michaelmeador2609 The perspective in the comparison aircraft image is indeed slightly different, but not by much. The time where I grabbed that screencap is after Snort's plane starts to roll left, toward the camera. We're seeing it from slightly "above" too because it's rolling toward us. If you compare the chord line of his wing (which is rotated almost perfectly level in the comparison image I made on the right) to what appears to be the elevator endcap, they are not parallel. If it was neutral elevator, they would be.
Very valuable and thoughtful analysis for ALL pilots to consider.
Could he have throttled back to keep the pitch from increasing so rapidly after rotation despite a runaway trim situation ?
He could have, but it was already too late, by the time he could have reduced throttle, the plane was already in a stall, and too close to the ground to recover anyway.
That’s a good question he would have had to reduce power immediately he felt the aircraft climbing too steeply, there is a lot to process and very little time to action it. Which action or process to do or what is really happening just overloads the pilots reaction if he was at height and had more time on his side yes maybe he could have figured out something but in this situation it’s incredibly hard you need to pick one course of action and hope you picked wisely
There are multiple solutions to a known trim problem. You can simply bank the aircraft to allow the up trim to pull you around in circles while you troubleshoot, for example. The problem in this case is that he ran out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas all at the same time.
@@Voodoo350R well assuming it was the trim issue it’s a possibility yes, but your right he had very little time to process all that was happening and no height to help. I believe he was familiar with the solution your mentioned due to his flight experience with other aircraft (from what his ex military friends have posted elsewhere)
@@Rob-vv5yn Admittedly I'm speculating about it being a trim problem. It's highly improbable it was the gust lock as many have speculated because the design of the locks on this aircraft also locks the rudder when engaged so he would have had quite a time trying to taxi without rudder control. There are a thousand or more things it could have been and I'm looking forward to reading the report once it's out. Whatever the cause, it's a very unfortunate loss indeed. Godspeed Snort.
My first solo on a T41(C-172) the seat lock on the rail slid on me but luckily the nose was trimmed. I just let go of the yoke.
He has flown it before, so the trim being wired wrong would have been know before this accident! Unless it just came out of annual?
Just picked it up out of maintenance that morning.
I believe it was a broken trim tab that caused Jimmy Leeward's P-51 to pitch up during the 2012 Reno Air Races. The plane soared up, banked left, came down parallel to the viewing stands, and crashed into the box seats in front of the stands at full speed. My wife and I were in the stands and "The Galloping Ghost" crashed right in front of us. With all the devastation, we were amazed that there was no fire (the smell of AVGAS was strong). A small item like a trim tab can have a profound influence on the control of a plane.
Thanks again for the cool video and explanations. He would appreciate it no doubt...
It os so easy to catch the mistakes of the left seat (pic) pilot. It is a whole other ball game flying the left seat and chatching your own. I learned this shooting approaches with another IFR pilot as safety pilot. We used to fly an approach to a full stop and change seats and fly the same approach. One of the simplest mistakes is forgetting to start your clock at the IAP. I remember once when i was a fresh instrument pilot doing this I kicked the pilot in command for not starting his clock. On the very next approach I was flying in the left seat and I forgot to start my clock. Yes, he caught it
Thanks! Sad situation.
A few years ago I encountered a runaway trim issue but the advantage that I had was that it was already reported but the squawk was vague so I decided to troubleshoot the issue at 5500 feet while on a cross country flight. The breaker was pulled and I pushed it back in. All was well for the first few seconds of engaging the auto pilot in the wings level mode. Then it suddenly aggressively pushed the nose over into what would have been a steep dive but I almost immediately pulled the breaker again when I realized the amount of back pressure required to prevent a very steep dive. Had this happened during takeoff and with no heads-up of the trim issue things would have unfolded in a different way.
I had a run-away trim on my Arrow on takeoff once. I was strong enough to force the yoke forward and disable the electric auto-trim, but it was surprising at the time. Could the front seat going back off the rails just push through that control panel with all the weight?
Ok I’m a taildragger pilot and I’ll chime in. Most pilots exercise the sticks normal travel to check the ailerons & elevator during engine warm up. I feel he lost elevator control from a cable, pushrod, or cotter pin. Something in the elevator control went wrong. My heart goes out to his family. Also most taildragger pilots are active on their stick controls when they taxi because you have to “ fly them all the way to the hangar “.
As one with a secondary interest in aviation, I think your trim explanation at 07:30 could have been useful earlier in the video. Regarding "getting it backwards" 08:48, Definitely experienced that several times myself in maintenance tasks. Strange how the (amazing) human mind can be confused by simple, binary systems.
You would think on something so critical as flight controls the harness would be designed so you CAN’T reverse the wiring. Say, M/F on one and F/M on the other.
@@MrJeffcoley1 I've found that many times engineers have a bit of tunnel vision on what they do, and simple things like this could easily get overlooked if you're not thinking about it.
At low takeoff speeds these large elevators should be able to overpower the trim tabs, no?
Thank you Juan
Unfortunately, it looks like elevator control reversal due to maintenance (could be trim or the elevator itself, both have happened multiple times in the past). That would explain why the aircraft leapt off the ground initially (holding forward stick that is doing the opposite of holding the aircraft on the ground) and why it then pitched up so fast (as the pilot went full forward on the stick due to the aircraft leaping off the ground). Not likely this would be salvageable.