Hawker 900XP Crash near Grand Junction CO. 7 Feb 2024
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Hawker 900XP Stall Test: • Hawker 900XP Stall test
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Excellent coverage Juan. I have done these tests several times over 20+ years in the Hawker. In my experience a good preflight of the wing panels can easily find any gaps that should not be there. Then of following all the AFM limitations and recommendations the maneuver is not too bad. The stick pusher is abrupt but works very well if you don’t fight it. The plane should have little to NO rolling tendency during the push over. I’m afraid they climbed through icing conditions and even a very small amount of ice on the tks panels could cause a lot of roll and yaw. I had forgotten but did notice in your brief that the max altitude for this maneuver is 18000MSL. They began at 20000MSL. The Swiss cheese was lining up even before takeoff. 😢
Very good points here.
Wonder if tks was on even on and the stall strip heats breakers were in. No way to know is not data recorder only CVR. Sad. I think I worked on that Hawker In completions.
@@Bo185 the 900XP has a FDR. I can’t remember how many parameters it records but it should have the basics.
Yes, the altitude was the first thing I noticed when Juan presented the conditions page from the AFM. Max altitude 18,000' MSL. They began at 20,000' MSL. Air too thin for initial recovery perhaps, and then a secondary stall occurred and aggravated their situation?
I live in Grand Junction and fly out of GJT. Yes the weather was conducive to icing for their climb out. They were clear of the heavier clouds that were over GJT but they definitely could have had ice.
This Pilot was an expert Sailor who was well known, liked and respected in our Community. As a non-aviator thank you Juan for helping me to understand some of the technical aspects of this tragic accident.
So, this is exactly one of the reasons I got out of corporate aviation. These types of flights were just “hey, go out and do this.” type things that I was never comfortable doing. I refused to take part in one about 25 years ago on a Lear 25 which apparently had ridiculous stall characteristics to the point where a Learjet test pilot would have to come in to do the flight. I refused to go along and one of the macho guys said he’d do it. When they go back he said it was terrifying. He had no idea what he had gotten himself into prior to going. Long story short, I’m not a test pilot, etc…
Reminds me of my Air Force T-37 training when I inadvertently ran the trim full nose down while entering a spin. The aircraft inverted into a negative G accelerated spin and I was pulled up out of my seat into the shoulder straps. My IP took the plane and recovered it. He didn't talk until after we landed. In debrief he said "Well you should have had to eject today. When I went to recover from the spin it felt like lifting weights trying to move the stick." 1989 but remember it like it was yesterday.
Thank you for covering this. One of the pilots was a friend of mine. He was a highly accomplished pilot, sailor and overall great person. I don't know his experience in the Hawker, but we lost a good one that day. Thanks again and any more analysis you can provide in the future would be greatly helpful for me and his community here in the Seattle area. Keep up the good work!
Sorry you lost a friend. Watching these can be uncomfortable enough without personally knowing anyone involved.
He was in my simulator class, and became a good friend of mine. He lit up the room and his wealth of knowledge helped everyone in the room. Such terrible news to hear of this tragedy. Blue skies and tailwinds
Sorry to hear mate.
@@willitlaunch3965 Sorry for your loss, he absolutely did light up a room when he got there. Always haha
So sorry for the loss of your friend.
I'm a Weather Spotter for Grand Junction NOAA and 50 yr active pilot.
I was skiing at Powderhorn when this accident occurred just tot the SE up on the north flank of Grand Mesa. It stormed hard up there from 7 am -1 PM
There was a dynamic weather system all over the West USA Wed. and it stormed hard up until 1 PM on Grand Mesa. The clouds at the wreckage site were as there as depicted during a slight clearing to the NE.
This was is a test pilot job IMHO
RIP to these poor guys
Must have been scary as hell but over very quickly
I did stall test many years ago with a Hawker 400 Fan Conversion airplane we owned. After an extensive 48 month inspection, re-paint and many other squawks, we did the stall test. This term in the manuals now called “Aileron Snatch” occurred very abruptly. We consulted with the British engineers and learned the term “Dittering”. Long story short it’s a vortex creating a vacuum above the aileron. The stall wedge was moved less than thousands of an inch and corrected the issue. On many of the test flights , like the example, a secondary stall occurred trying to clean the airplane up. All told that day we flew about 7 flights until corrected. It was certainly a learning experience for us.
Less than 1/1000th of an inch? Sorry, I don't buy this.
I flew Lears, Hawkers and Falcons and was more than happy to let the service centers provide experienced test pilots to explore the flight envelope of our aircraft if required.
"explore the flight envelope if required" is a lovely euphemism
The Learjet requires a factory test pilot to do the stall series.
@@jp-iy8hk I've always noticed that birds never get outside their envelopes and never stall spin into ground. I think we've gone about aeronautics all wrong.
They also don't carry thousands of pounds of people and cargo on their backs@@vibratingstring
And here you are 😏
An old not so bold pilot to tell your wisdom..
I'm starting to appreciate my dorky old training aircraft, which responded to stalls and spins with lady like grace.
You'd never catch me performing a stall in a high performance swept wing airplane without being properly strapped into an ejection seat! In the simulator, fine, but not in the actual aircraft. During an annual checkride in an F-4 Phantom and performing a required accelerated stall (high bank angle, high airspeed, very high angle of attack) I "departed controlled flight" during which I and the check pilot in my back seat were mere passengers as the jet did two very high yaw rate rolls to the right in very heavy aerodynamic buffet, nose oscillating well above and below the horizon, and then one similar roll to the left. By the time full forward stick finally got the nose down into a nearly vertical dive at very low airspeed and unloaded to zero G, we were finally able to accelerate enough to "recover from the ensuing dive", losing about 10,000 feet of altitude in the process! It was an eye opener! It took awhile of circling around at 350 KIAS for me and my check pilot to get our hearts back inside our rib cages! I can only imagine what those unfortunate Hawker pilots must have experienced as the earth rushed up to greet them.
You're right, Juan, stalls in a swept wing jet should be reserved for test pilots experienced in type. And by the way, I'll bet that Hawker's factory test pilots did the stall certification tests with a ballistically-deployed spin recovery chute installed on their test aircraft. High T-tail jets are notorious for horizontal tail stall/aerodynamic blanking at stalling angles of attack, the McDonnell F-101 Voodoo was a case in point.
Wow, I'm not a pilot and that is scary... 10k feet seems like a lot of space, but it suddenly becomes very small.
Yes scary but you learnt a hell of a lot and probably had the best beer in the mess after. Thank's for the reminder on tail authority I had a brain fart but recall that on some high tails the horizontal stab airflow is impeded by the engine config. Tricky setup hight tails but they look good especially the VC10.
@@Woffy. Mandatory bailout in the Phantom was 12,000' AGL. Believe me that as we were tumbling out of the sky at an alarming rate, I was checking the altimeter and thinking about Plan B if we hit that magic number! The ground, when I could see it, was getting closer very fast!
Those poor chaps in the Hawker probably had never had occasion to push the yoke full forward before, the POH that Juan read to us would certainly not have prepared them for such an aggressive control input as they were waiting for the stick pusher to activate rather less aggressively. The Phantom had very scary post-stall gyrations as I learned first hand over the pastoral farmlands of Nebraska. But we had an axiom in the F-4, "Unload for Control". "Stick, maintain full forward" until you start to get light in the seat. No aircraft can stall at zero units angle of attack, the trick when nibbling at the stall was to ease off on the stick first and foremost, and if that didntn't give immediate satisfaction, stick all the way to the forward stop and hang on for the ride of your life!
If Juan is right that the Hawker pilots encountered an upset and totally lost control, perhaps if they had aggressively employed full down elevator they might have survived with a great story to tell at the bar. Unless it was a catastrophic aircraft component failure, we'll probably never know for sure.
Been there, inverted spin in F4E, stick full forward ailerons rudder neutral, deploy drag chute. That snapped it out.
@@jimgraham6722 I was a crew chief on the F-4 for 5 yrs at Moody AFB in the 70's. We had Phantom return from a flight where it had gotten into a spin and the drag chute was deployed. Large chunks of the stab were torn out from the drag chute strap whipping around, but it saved the jet. From Moody I went to UPT, was a FAIP in the T-38 and flew the A-10 until retirement. I wanted to fly the F-4 (love that jet!), but unfortunately it was being phased out by the time I was up for assignment following the IP assignment.
Excellent video. I’ve done 5 stall flights in the Hawkers over the years each time I hire a test pilot to sit left seat.
I cannot stress enough what a TERRIBLE IDEA it is to attempt to correct the roll with opposite aileron input.
The MX manual should say “less than 10 degrees of roll is acceptable with ailerons neutral”. I’ve flown with the guy who is responsible for noting that the Hawker has “Aileron Snatch” while in a spin. It’s a real thing. If the 900VA crew were wresting with the ailerons while trying to get out of the spin, they likely made the situation worse. RIP guys. Sorry it had to end that way. Brass poles and blue skies in the afterlife.
I was Chief Pilot for a company starting in 2017 that had a 900XP. After getting typed in it and during the initial watching a Hawker stall video I knew I never wanted any part of it.
Hawkers having TKS for Anti-Ice. The system is a pain to maintain and that requires a post Maintenance Flight as Juan stated. My airplane needed it twice in the 2 years we operated it and I flat refused to do it. I hired a test crew to accomplish it.
They simply don’t pay me enough…..
Side note: I spent 4,600 hrs in a Sabre 65. It was nasty in a stalll. We had to do the type ride in the airplane because Flight Safety’s sim was only a Level C. A old timer with 18,000 hrs in Sabres told me he would rather have me REF +20 than REF -2!
These older designed super critical wings are just plain nasty in a stall
Im not a pilot or even an air enthusiast, but I LOVE this channel!! Very interesting and informative! Well done. 👍
Agreed, all points. You'll _never_ get me in a GA aircraft, but these videos are fascinating.
Same Here....
2 people are dead...
@@oldspicey6001Many more die in road vehicles.
@@oldspicey6001 The point of highlighting accidents and mishaps is for other people to avoid the same mistakes.
I drive an 800. Have never done any full stalls outside of the SIM. And after watching this video I am pretty sure I'm going to keep it like that. I've got Aerobatic training and a mess of types in swept-wing jets but have never heard of one with Aileron snatch as a possibility. I do recall in the Airbus they told us to keep our feet OFF the rudder pedals during upset recovery. Apparently, the Bus can do some weird stuff if you start tap dancing on the pedals, and I am not talking about the AA crash in NY. I had to do a mild upset recovery once near the top of a TRW (in the Hawker) and that was interesting enough for this old man.
Aerobatic training oh you lucky chap I don't have any skills to do that even on flight sim. Apropos the AB which as you know relies on 'Pixies' to fly, they get very upset especially if you open circuit breakers during a full thrust engine test ( Etihad A340 -600 prior to delivery Toulouse 2007) .
Or repeatedly overload the rudder at low airspeed when the 'Pixies' move the rudder stop to stop in under 2 seconds !. If I recall the Pilots were unaware that the rudder characteristics change at approach speeds and their tap dancing buggerd the rudder, which was later found to have some delamination of the honeycomb. 'I did some composite NDT materials analysis in the UK following that incident to find find a technique to detect defects in composite structure using Thermography. Works incredible well and better than tapping with a Dime as Boeing used to do.
'Weird stuff' It certainly can now the system algorithms are tuned, there is a lot of redundancy and once the Pilots have got a hand on a problem they can steer the computers to work around issues. I think one of Quantas AB's had a spectacular recovery with good CRM. Time to dig out my notes. Fair skies.
she is a brick shithouse- if there is any aircraft you have to crash in that's the one you want to be in
Definitely a pucker factor in any live stall exercise, no matter what your experience🥴
what is TRW?
It’s been several years since I flew them. I always thought they were a great airplane and they served our company well.
It really grinds my gears when pilots are either on a checkride or testing safety warning equipment and it leads to an accident. We lost 2 absolutely amazing, incredibly safe super experienced pilots 15 years ago on a checkride and it still bothers me as well as confuses me.
I'm so very happy people like Juan, Dan and others are on TH-cam sharing their unique knowledge that certainly is saving lives every day because they cover things most pilots never even think about.
I guess it failed the stall test
its odd the documentation reports do not attempt above 18000 msl and it looks like they took it to 20k or at least 19000 when trying this. Its a shame there isnt a device built to test this equipment on the ground...
Stall tests have been jet killers for ever…the Trident deep stall..Gulfstream cert stall wreck…..727 deep stalls…..
Should been sim drill only…except this was a req flight test
Recovery Parachutes (RP)--not more Chuck Yeager wannabe whining.
ABX Air Cargo stalled a DC8 at night test flight. They did not even realize what they done until the ground prox Terrain was heard on the voice recorder. Even at that point the flyt crew still did not take action all the way to the ground. I lost a friend in that one.
When I worked on Hawkers at an MRO, test pilots were always brought in to do post maintenance stalls.
What's the pay like? It sounds insane.
Juan, I think “ sketchy” could be a HUGE understatement!
@user-vp6im4ub8sreally?
@user-vp6im4ub8s Everyone, please flag this trollish comment
@user-vp6im4ub8s says the random 😂
@@markmunoz3951 says the random 😂
@@Sonny_McMacssonsays the random 😂
My God, the jet became the roller coaster from hell. This brought back some very strong memories of being the 'alive dead weight' in Aircraft going out after major repairs to do their stall speed tests and single engine certification to fly again. The video you showed was good, but if you're in the aircraft the buffeting and sudden wing drop really feels like a wild rollercoaster. Ive done this in Beechcraft King Airs, Cessna 404's, DH6 Twin Otters and by far the scariest the was the GAF Nomad (it has a free floating elevator). Not sure if these days they have maintenance staff sitting in as dummy weight. As a older person I would really reconsider going out on these weird joy rides. Another thing I remember was these certification tests were done just off the coast of Sydney. Never done over land.
God? Which one we using today?
@@Failure_Is_An_Option The green one.
@@Sonny_McMacsson I thought on Mondays we use the blue one!
@@randallmarsh1187 Ah, right. It's Monday, not Sunday.
@@Sonny_McMacsson There's that pesky International Date Line again!
The Hawker wing dates back to the early 1960s, and it's stall characteristics are like something out of the Century Series fighters. The shaker and pusher are supposed to keep you away from the real thing, but this isn't the first one to go to the rodeo after leading edge maintenance.
This one flew within 2 miles of my house before crashing about 20 miles away. Like Juan, I could not be paid to fly the post maintenance stall checks on a Hawker.
They were very likely 8000-10,000 feet above the clouds when they slowed down, a couple thousand less when it departed controlled flight. There was room to fly 172s under the clouds that day, but not to recover jets from vertical dives
The ancient Jet Dragon
There were several icing PIREPs in that area. After major maintenance like this, the TKS has to be primed for quite a while to be 100% effective. I’ve seen it take 15-20 minutes or more to prime completely after maintenance. From the ADS-B data, it appears that it may have stalled before the stick pusher would have activated. (Even when corrected for altitude and winds aloft) Entirely possible if there was ice on the wing.
Hawker stall characteristics are very sensitive to precise placement of the stall strips. Very small adjustments can significantly change the characteristic. Whatever maintenance was done probably warranted the stall check. I believe the aileron snatch is indicative of a trailing edge stall... the reversible flight control system feeds any resulting hinge moments straight back to the pilot.
There are not alot of Hawker pilots that will do the stall test. We hire one periodically and he gets a high price to do it. Those leading edges are very critical. The sealant between the leading edge and wing plank has to be flush, not protruding above the surface
This is tragedy for sure, I have done a number of stall tests in the 850 and 800 Hawkers following maintenance and will say it was never a fun time. I had pilots in our department that would not do the tests. We had one very experienced pilot that was always the lead on maintenance stall checks for this very reason. My first experience was with a factory test pilot that explained what can go wrong in a heart beat. Checking the wing before flight is critical for any stall check on the Hawker. The sealer that is used to smooth out the airflow must be perfect. Great job telling the story of this crew.
It’s not a stall test. It’s a pusher test, You guys were doing it wrong.
Just to note a couple of things. The Hawker has a cruciform tail, not "high T tail" as stated. It's been years, but I've done the stall tests. We performed the test at 15,000' and the engines are extremely sluggish responding and aiding in recovery to a normal speed/AOA. The high terrain for this event probably caused them to perform this test at a higher than normal altitude and those 731's are only producing a fraction of their rated thrust. Having only asked for a 2000' block altitude, they may have made additional effort to stop the nose down pitch and loss of altitude to avoid busting their clearance limit. I learned (after one stall test) to not paint yourself into a corner on allowed altitude for recovery. There was an older Hawker that did the same thing doing 135 checks. There were four pilots on that aircraft. The instructor was on the CVR telling the pilot "hold your altitude". They all perished.
For years the mantra was maintain your altitude no matter what. So stupid!
Fortunately those days are gone.
do you know the tail number or do you have a source link to that 135 hawker crash for me to study? ty
That is a good point about don't bust yr altitude. Back before RSM early 2000's we were always able to get 20k blocks for such testing. But now you HAVE to be in a agreed test area or warning , Restricted area to safely do certain stall testing. Not sure if the stalls were dirty, might be reason for afm limit of 18k. Most manufacturers limit flaps above that. Just to reduce test points which cost money and not much normal reason since highest landing airport is below 13k. And as you said. Engines at 60% or so are not going to wake up when pushed to TO power detent or setting. On one program we had a test article out at Roswell Range doing iceshape stalls. I was fly actual shapes that day in PNW. But I warned crew to triple check engineering and maintenance on shape install for adhesive thickness. There was a cloud deck that day but they started full flap entry below it around 16k baro. The aircraft started an accelerated pitch up which full forward stick could not arrest. The aircraft parked at 20 degrees nose up with little airspeed and a vertical increasing rate. Classic deep stall. The only way to save them selves was to rudder the aircraft over. The FTE received the fastest finger in the west that day for firing the spin chute as soon as the aircraft departed. The data showed recovery at 1560 all and 5.1 g pulled to get it there. The aircraft did not even pop a rivet. They were alive because of that chute. They just did not have the altitude to try anything else. If something on the wing had changed , would the crew have spotted it? Did they know what to look for? Sad that this happened. I always push for very clear notes in AFM development so the unwary know the details. SIM training today teaches everything abou the aircraft to fly it within the parameters. But they all have behavior issues somewhere. You're just not supposed to know them by triggering them as my young kids would say. Fly Safe
@@KuostA Looking at fatal crashes with the Hawkers at ASN, the only one that seems to match the description is N45BP, which crashed near Beaumont, Texas on September 20, 2003 with 3 fatalities after being unable to recover from an intentional stall. Per @wmivey's description they had a 2000' block (5000' to 7000') for training. Accident number: DEN03FA155
Several years ago, I took a bucket list flight from Stallion51 in Crazy Horse 1. One of the maneuvers was an accelerated stall. The aerobatics was fun, but that stall was worth every penny I spent on that flight! Getting an airplane to stall in a dive was incredibly educational, and your continued emphasis on stalls at any airspeed hits home every time you say it.
Did the same a number of years ago. Dream come true. Didn't do any stalls but did some loops, aileron rolls and barrel roles. All pilots should get some across training, either in gliders or powered planes. Great fun and makes one a much better and much safer pilot.
Flew Crazy Horse 1 twice and we only did take-off/departure and approach to landing stalls. I wanted to spend more time doing aerobatics after those stall demos.
@@DrJohn493 Yup. What I learned about flying a Mustang is that I wanna do it again! Incredible experience! Wish I had the time and money for a full checkout, but that is very unlikely.
I flew CH1 too. Awesome exprience. We only did one normal stall, a non event.
Test pilot territory.
Will be interesting to know if the pilots were in-fact familiar with this procedure or just read the book and thought yeah we can do that
Anytime we removed leading edges on the old Lear 25/35 aircraft for maintenance Lear required stall checks. Test flight to be accomplished by a Lear test pilot only.
Did you work for BA/Lear? Former BFTC guy myself 😉
This channel has the best comments. I'm amazed how many great comments like yours are shared here.
Thanks to you and everyone else sharing their experiences.
Lear test pilot only. Says it all!
@@windwatcher11 Lears always were a sexy jet! Most of them were before my time working there but we had all of them there to represent the 50th Anniversary. I got to see the last "true" Lear as they say, deliver. The last 60, the last 100% Wichita built Lear, our old FT bird, 45-001 flew RVSM chase with it too. Good times out there!
@@mytmousemalibu Real men fly straight pipes....
Excellent! I’m getting to where I dread seeing your videos pop up. It usually means someone has lost their life. But your coverage and analysis is vital to help prevent these incidents in the future
you said it perfectly
I flew the hawker series from 700 to 900XP for 10 years, I did numerous post leading hedge maintenance stall test In South Florida and in Asia. The proper way to do it is not for the regular line pilot. The Normal Stall described in the Pilot Operating Manual is different from a Maintenance Stall Test. There is Hawker UK post maintenance stall check profile on how it is be conducted. The pilot must have witnessed and then get trained on how it is performed, be familiar and at ease with extreme hawker flight characteristics and upset recovery. The majority of the test is conducted with one stall channel alternatively disabled so to disable the pusher, to check and compare the speeds and angles at which each channels shakers are activated for one, then full stalls are performed with alternatively each channel disabled to capture data on the aircraft stall characteristics whereas to ascertain if stalls are within an acceptable stall envelope parameters for various configurations. It is only after when all stalls on various config with only one channel show no critical or adverse stall characteristics that other stall tests are conducted with the pusher (Meaning both channels being ON). Unfortunately, a lot hawker post maintenance stall checks not meeting the required Aim and standards are done out there just to meet the AMM sign off.
wow, sorry to say it sounds like the crash is somewhere in this paragraph
Wow very interesting and seemingly showing that the procedure likely used did not conform with the actual purpose of extensive flight test procedure required. It also sounds like an actual serious flight test that should be well outside of the purview of anyone but actual test pilots due to what a failure entails and extra tools in the pilot's bag of tricks to use for recovery without ballistic recovery equipment.
If you follow the manual it’s a non issue and have experience. I worked for hawker beechcraft as an A&P at LIT the completions center for them for 15 years, and worked on hundreds of 800xp series with the 900 is and only seen a few fail a stall speed. HBC would send out test pilots to do stalls for the service centers. Netjet had their own OCF crews for hawkers. So these test need to be done by experienced hawker crews. Even through its in the manual and or POH doesn’t mean your skill level will allow you to do them. Talking to Hawker Beechcraft test crews they will fall out of the sky if not done correctly.
The Lear 35s required a factory test pilot. For a reason.
The pilot was experienced (ex netjets) 😢
Flew a hawker 700 and had to do this test. We practiced in the sim with cg aft as this was the most dangerous. When the aircraft stalled it severely dropped a wing and scared the shit out of us. Vowed never to do that again!
A good Hawker operator will spend the money on an experienced test pilot. Too many sketchy operators will pressure their line pilots into doing the stall test. More than 6000 hours on the hawker and I have never done a maintenance stall test and I am quite happy with that.
Thank you for your continued efforts with promoting aviation safety and knowledge. I flew Hawkers, including the 900XP.
If I recall, stall testing was required in post MX flights check if the leading edges were removed. Concise briefings and strict adherence to AFM/AMM procedures are critically important when conducting these post MX test flights. Our company required CAVU weather as well.
I'm not even a Hawker pilot and the shaker/buffet is as far as I'd go, anything more than that is asking to be unalived.
@@ChavngRynsPvts- Then you’re asking to get someone else killed. The aircraft manual is quite specific, and you are supposed to do a series of full stalls (to where the pusher fires) to verify the aircraft’s handling characteristics. I’ll also agree it’s not a task for someone who isn’t very well trained in doing the procedure (and recovering if the test is unsuccessful) - but it must be done to the pusher to ensure acceptable handling characteristics.
It will be very interesting to hear what went wrong on this flight, RIP to the crew.
@@bradcrosier1332 My apologies regarding taking the stall to shaker v pusher. It has been 15+ years since I’ve flown the Hawker. If the flight test requires taking it to pusher, then that’s what we did. It’s just been a long time ago.
@@scottw595 Fair enough point here. I attempted to recall the test flights the best I could in my original comment. It has been many years since I flew the Hawker and I certainly don’t want to provide any misinformation or confusion on the subject. I will go back and edit my original comment. Thank you for the recommendation.
This channel has single handedly saved me tens of thousands of dollars in keeping in check my desire to be a recreational pilot. Thank you!
Ditto.
When I was young and dumb I thought I had what it would take to be a pilot. Thankfully, I made the right decision (for me!) and let that dream go. I have other hobbies now that I enjoy.
GA aircraft are generally much more forgiving than this jet. Yes, there is risk in aviation. But it’s manageable if you take it seriously. Every time I strap in I know it might be my last day if I seriously screw up. Same can be said for riding a m/c, scuba diving, mountaineering, etc. All of these require mental discipline and know-how. But the rewards are worth it. Keep things simple, don’t bite off more than you can chew, know your limits and remain within them. Most of these accidents happen because people got beyond their limits.
As always, a great video report, Juan! I never saw any of this in my years on the 737, which only would have happened during simulator initial/recurrent/AQP training. The 737 exhibits fairly straight forward stall characteristics, although it only has a stick shaker, not a stick pusher.
Looked up "aileron snatch" mentioned at and after 9:00 into the video, and I was directed to a FAA advisory circular regarding ops above 25,000 feet or above Mach 0.75:
From: FAA Advisory Circular AC No. 61-107B
Subject: Aircraft Operations at Altitudes Above 25,000 Feet Mean Sea Level or Mach Numbers Greater Than .75
Date: 9/9/15
1-4 DEFINITIONS
Aileron Snatch. A violent back and forth movement of the aileron control as airflow changes over the surface.
Never have experienced it...sounds scary.
"Aileron Snatch" is my new band name, calling it now.
Waiting for Blancolirio's report on the crash of the Marine Super Stallion helicopter near San Diego.
The crash was at the very end of a long 4 hour flight at 1) Night 2) Mountains 3) the worst Weather in the San Diego area in about 30 years.
IMO this appears to be insane to send these pilots and crew on a very dangerous flight. The flight was a near meaningless training flight, which could have been flown when the weather cleared.
Total...5 dead.
Not sure where this one goes on my 'Why I Don't Fly' bingo card ... but it's there somewhere ...
God bless the pilots and their families ... I've lost many people in my long life, but I've never lost anyone like this ...
I flew biz jets for 13 years. I had colleagues who flew the Hawker series and it always amazed me that they were expected to go and do stall tests. As you say 'no way!' thank you!! We used to do regular RAT tests which I enjoyed, but always considered that the limit of my test pilot abilities.
Should FAA be pressured to create special "test pilot license class" with strictest requirements of skill and experience for such post-repair flying work, rather than leave it up to any company's expectations? That way, nlbody would have to say 'No' or even worse, say 'Uh, OK, I'm game'?
I've changed leading edges on Hawker 125sand it's a exacting job. But it's still hard to do it wrong. But Lear 35s are a different story. Easy to screw those up. Lear requires a factory test pilot and the acft loaded to full fwd CG for the test flight. We had to put 800 lbs of Sackrete bags in one we did to get it to fwd CG
My company use to send us along on post maintenance check flights on Hawkers when they would be doing a stall test because we had all the leading edges and TKS panels off for a 48 month inspection. I have been on a few of them. They are exciting but un-nerving. But due to an incident many years ago now when one of our customers aircraft almost crashed during one of these tests with some of my fellow employees onboard, it is no longer allowed for anyone to attend a check flight if this test is to be done. The hawker spun and lost 10K of alt before the pilots miraculously recovered the aircraft to normal flight. The force of the spin tore passenger seats out of the seat tracks and severely injured one of our techs. I do believe the error was that the pilots left the autopilot engaged. Basically the autopilot was trying to maintain proper attitude and lateral control when the stall occurred and made the situation much worse and put the aircraft in an uncontrollable free falling spin for 10k ft. The G's were insane. Freakin nuts man
Thanks for that. That's one wild ride.
Forces big enough to dislodge seats and the airframe held up is testament to how strong it is!
I knew and have flown with one of the pilots in this accident and taken evaluations with him (not in a hawker) He was an outstanding pilot and person! Hope something is learned from this tragedy that might save others in the future.
Condolences to the pilots families,seems to be quiet a few of these light plane crashes ,hopefully info will come to light to prevent more from happening,thanks Juan,safe flights,👋👋🙏🙏👍🇦🇺
Looking at the stair step ADSB trace i think they were fighting repeated stalls most of the way down
Thank you for covering these incidents so quickly and in such detail. Much appreciated!
Wooooooow. I knew a stall was significantly different in a swept wing - but I didn’t know it was THAT significant!
The outboard wing sections are highly loaded, so the outboard section can and will often stall before the inboard root wing area. This creates a situation like standing on an exercise ball with arms tied together.
I’ve done many of these test. The mechanics never want to ride along. 🥴
Thank you for explaining this, just another sad story in the loss of life
damn Jaun you been puttin up too many of these this month!
Yeah. It's been a very bad year for aviation.
Thank you for going into the tech manuals. Very informative!
60,000 people watched this in 2 hours...You have come a long way Juan...!
I'll lean with you on the weather playing a roll. This was just before these big storms rolled through here in CO. We were having heavy winds on and off, overcast, the works. If they'd of waited a few days? It's cleared up, winds have calmed, and we have several days of this ahead. Gonna have to throw "icing" in as maybe a factor as well, giving what was going on at that time- while it WAS fairly warm ahead of that system, (actually got rain, instead of snow @6700 ft. where I am), the next was already on it's way. Temps were around 37 degrees there, and it was overcast pretty much, the entire day, with only small windows of partial clearing.
From a similar incident in May 2006 (AIN Online) - “The flight was entering a stall series in accordance with the test-flight procedures.” In the existing conditions and at the aircraft’s weight, calculated stick-shaker speed was 115 knots and stick-pusher 107.5 knots, followed by aerodynamic stall at 105.5 knots. “As the airplane slowed through [approximately] 126 knots [indicated airspeed],” the pilot told the NTSB, “it abruptly rolled off/ dropped the right wing and the nose fell rapidly.” The pilot said that the airplane rolled right and left five to seven times, entered a cloud layer at about 12,000 feet msl then exited the clouds at about 10,000 feet and “descend[ed] vertically. I neutralized the ailerons with the yoke and began a higher than normal back-pressure pullout, experiencing [approximately] four to five gs. The aircraft responded, and we stopped the descent somewhere below 7,000 feet.”
In the incident from 2006, the autopilot was on (incorrectly) during the stall. Could potentially be the case on this one too.
Flew the Hawker series over 9 years, 800, 800A, 850XP, 900XP. Knew a stall test was coming on a Hawker 800XP and hoped they would hire a test pilot… nope. Scheduled me and another guy (good pilot) to do it. One of the biggest items to preflight is the new seal they put behind the leading edge top and bottom, If that seal is raised up like a knuckle (it does sometimes) in front of the aileron then you can lose your laminar flow and thus the aileron effectiveness at a higher speed than stall speed. You are taking off effectively with a new wing. The take off and the first stall are the most nerve racking. The flaps 45 stall takes the longest. There are specific airspeed ranges the stall is supposed to occur and the speed at stall is to be recorded for flaps zero, 15, 25, 45. Full stall and full recovery. As you said one degree per second nose up. The tail is not a “T” tail but a cruciform tail. The scuttle butt was that 25 of these test on average had no issues and then you would get a wild one. I did it once and that is enough for me.
You should have never seen an aerodynamic stall. It’s a pusher you’re waiting for. Did you do these incorrectly?
That stall test video looked terrifying! I’d love to learn more about how those flights works and how they prevent entering a deep stall
WTH is going on? They're dropping out of the sky like flies lately!
Statistically no, accident rates have declined per 100,000 hours flown, but anecdotally it seems that way.
I'll give you 1 clue .
Pronouns
Fentanyl!!!
More mediums for learning/hearing about them along with more content folks covering them.
Juan does a great job also in my view.
@@FamiliarAnomalyand you are qualified to opine on flight safety or statistics because you have training in these areas?
A spin in the PA28-140 I fly at the school is hairy enough! Those few moments of disorientation is real, and I can't imagine what it would be like if it happened when in clouds! Doing a stall maneuver in the Hawker, sounds like a very risky maneuver indeed. My deepest condolences to the families and friends who now morn the loss.
Just another tragic loss. Prayers to families and friends.
Had the pleasure of riding maintenance on a couple of those in an 800.Never realized it could go that wrong even if the maintenance was done perfect.
Doing a stall in a DC 9 10 no slat aircraft in 1967 at 15k ft. at night over the Everglades it rolled to left 90 deg. Recovery was conventional with a loss of about 5k ft.
Only 5k loss is quite good recovery
So the cargo door was still with you .....
Gator teasing.
I recently replaced the turbo in my Dodge ram 2500. It failed during a trip to the doctors office.
The Hawker is one of the most benign jets to fly... until you stall it. I have 5000 hours on type and always let someone else to do the stall test after maintenance.
Another excellent video, great job.
Heh, I was over on Max Trescott's channel earlier today commenting about the "unacceptable stall characteristics" from the checklist. That video was pretty crazy. Thanks as always for promoting awareness and safety, Juan!
Holy hell... That stall test you showed looked pretty frightening!
@user-vp6im4ub8s LOL Totally agree!
RIP to all involved.
I worked in production flight test on hawkers in Wichita and flew on nearly every aircraft before delivery to Little Rock and have been on hundreds of stall flight’s and we went to 18000 only and were very carful to avoid icing conditions. In all those flights we experienced one aircraft that rolled hard right and experienced aileron snatch. The sealer profile from the leading edge to the wing skin is critical. As others have stated though this maneuver should be done by experienced test pilots. At one point Raytheon/Hawker Beech required it. My condolences to the crew’s families RIP
You said that the aircraft stalled at 20,000 MSL but it looks like the Flight Manual specifies that this procedure needs to be done below 18,000 MSL. Would the additional altitude (and less air density) change the flight characteristics enough to make this procedure more dangerous and less likely to be recoverable?
I'm just guessing, but I think the 18,000-foot note has more to do with staying out of Class A airspace than anything else.
Sounds reasonable but if Hawker say Fl18 then that was for a reason. Another comment referred to possible icing, I am not an aviator but know icing brings all sorts of problems. Maybe the pilot thought a higher altitude would gave him more time for recovery when it may have brought on an icing problem. We await the flight recorder, this unfortunate event is interesting. My condolences.
@@phillipzx3754 That would be odd given all the countries that don't transition at 18k. I've not flown this exact type but there are many that have an upper limit due to aerodynamic effects. This kind of test is a little bit barking as you are effectively looking for the exact thing you want to be protected from. If you do have an egregious or aggravated UFCM at the departure from controlled flight you are in a world of hurt.
When I learned about departing and spinning swept wing jets we had a modified aircraft with extra gauges on both stick and flight control positions and a datalink to a safety pilot on the ground. Oh and ejector seats... that came as standard in that particular Hawker jet (Hunter).
I didn't enjoy a particular low AUM stall on a Hawker 125 when an engine seized and lunched itself as we stalled. The entry to the unexpected spin was brutal and you can really question your pedal and seat position choices when pushing to the stops under negative G, whilst the yoke becomes a somewhat useless wishing wand, with so little airflow over the control surfaces.
I flew the flight safety 800xp sim before. I am a hawker A&P with a private pilots license zero jet time. I was rated for engine run and taxi on all hawkers for check runs and test. So got to do some sim time for that. The instructor let us play after the testing. I stalled an xp at 15k it fell out of the sky but didn’t spin, I recovered at 1000 ft agl by putting the gear down. I figured nothing to loose she was going in, she started flying again. Crazy ride it was.
Fright Safety Delaware by any chance?
@@tyronetrump1612 witcha, ks
@@Bo185 Damn I thought Delaware for 2 weeks was torture, cannot imagine Wichita lol
@@tyronetrump1612 its not bad, 4000 mechanic school was 4 weeks there. But worth it. Normal mechanic 800 series was 2 weeks.
I flew this simulator every morning for its preflight. Its an absolute tank when you get it spinning!! Was always fun to hear the bell too....said no one!
Thanks as always for your insights. My dad worked at Lockheed as a test instrumentation engineer and rode on a many stall tests in the L-1011. I was young, but he described these and I never forget. Again, many thanks for your breakdown of this incident (I live in Colorado-tricky airspace throughout).
One minor point. The Hawker series does not have a T-tail.
I believe it is called a cruciform tail (looks like a cross).
Cool observation. Thanks for sharing.
Yeah but its more like a T tail, the over fin is only 8” if that. Not like a falcon. I seen a hawker over fin blown off from lightning strike and aircraft flew normally pilots didn’t even write it up we caught it on post flight inspection to there credit it was at night.
Seems like the basic setup was violated from the beginning of the exercise. The book says 10000 feet above AGL, but also not higher than 18000 feet MSL, yet it seems the exercise was started at 20000 MSL. What effect 2000 feet additional altitude would have is not mentioned. Does slightly thinner atmosphere at 20000 feet MSL place the control effectiveness in a dangerous envelop?
Thanks Juan! Great review.
Condolences to the families.
Great report! Thank you captain!🙏🙏🥲👌🙏💔
@7:48, "any tendency to roll should be corrected by ailerons" - this runs counter to advice in small prop aircraft. Glad you clarified that @8:43!
same here . My in-grained instinct is to freeze on the ailerons and use the rudders ... so swept wing aerodynamics are a whole new world to me
Excellent analysis. This jogged my memory of having to perform a stall system test on a Learjet 25D following removal of the wing leading edges during a 12 year inspection. The inspection facility was located in Denver, CO. We flew in an authorized Learjet pilot from the factory in Tucson, AZ to perform the test as PIC. I acted as the SIC, called out airspeeds and made notes of speeds at which the stick shaker and stick pusher activated. Watching this and seeing the wing drop during recovery was a sobering experience not to mention the pucker factor.
Well done as always sir. Also thank you for your service and to anyone else who has served or is currently serving.
You’re correct about having test pilots perform this maneuver. Stalls in swept wing aircraft aren’t as benign as in straight wing planes. Not that hard and much cheaper to call the manufacturer and have them send a couple of test pilots to do the test.
Reading a maintenance manual with a Catch22 in it is such fun! ...Unless your job relies on complying with it.
Thank you Juan
Crikey Juan, they are dropping like flies.
Thank you and take care.
Remember, folks, if you can't arrest a decent by pulling back on the pole, you're most likely in a stall.
Yah sure. Sorry but, that statement bothers me. And then it drops a wing and spins😮
Interesting video you showed us - looked like 70 - 80degree tipstall!
In 2000 Lockheed Martin supplied 4 reconnaissance radar Hawker 800 XPs to the Korean military and I deployed with them to maintain the radars and aircraft avionics systems for two years. One day when I entered the hanger, the Korean maintainers were prepping for a dog and pony show for a general and they were waxing the titanium leading edges of the wings to make them shiny. They managed to plug all those laser drilled weep holes. That TKS de-icing system was a maintenance nightmare and we had frequent leaks with the plastic tubing.
Wow!
Sketchy? Too right. Sounds like a risk too far 'just' for a test, and definitely test pilot territory.
Thanks as always Juan for your careful and respectful analysis. My condolences to those who have suffered the loss of these two pilots 😢💔
When listening to the requirements for the stall tests, I have this feeling that I just wished the plane had been designed differently. It sounds like asking for trouble. RIP pilots, condolences to their loved ones.
Thank you, RB, Nova Scotia.
Having retired after 30 years with a leading MRO I arranged many post maintenance stall flights on Learjet aircraft with factory trained Learjet pilots during that time. It was required in order to RTS that the stall flights be performed by certified captains. An owner/operators crew member was more than welcome to sit right seat. I believe Hawker Raytheon also had the same requirement at one time but somewhere during that 30 year time frame they determined that it was acceptable to allow the owner/operators crew to perform the post maintenance stall checks. Sadly these accidents have happened before and after many hair raising close call tales from our maintenance techs that were on board some of those checks we quit requiring that they be onboard for the tests. This RTS parameter should always be completed by certified factory pilots. Not a customers wanna be cowboy crew
Any court case requiring an aviation expert should be nobody else but Juan Brown!
Sounds like another Tee tail deep stall crash. A Boeing 727 test pilot crew found themselves in this situation and nothing they were trying to break the stall was working. Finally they started making aileron inputs and gradually, they worked the plane into a steep bank, which resulted in the nose falling thru the horizon. That allowed them to get the angle of attach reduced which unblanked the tail. They were then successful in recovering from the stall. That may be the only recovery from a fully developed deep stall of a tee tailed jet.
I know of several airline crews entering a mushing approach to stall at high altitude. They kept pulling the nose up to hang on to their altitude. As they approached a full stall, the stick pusher saved the day.
Get the word out. Don't allow yourself to get sucked into a stall in a swept wing tee tail jet. Things can go very bad in a very short time.
Just WOW. Thank you.
I was a checkairman on a Hawker 1000 for four years. I'm not sure I'd want to go do this test. Seems like some cowboy test pilot shit.
Thank you for sharing.
This may well be related to the unrecoverable deep stall charactoristic of the T-tail. I remember a BEA Trident 3 that crashed shortly after departure from Heathrow in the late 1960's. That came about following improper stickshaker control inputs/response following premature slat retraction causing a stall on climbout. Once in a deep stall control pitch inputs become ineffective due to control surfaces blanking downflow from the stalled main wing.
I’m not sure it matters but I think this plane has a high-elevator cruciform tail design vs. a true T tail.
From GA, i loved doing stalls and training to avoid incipient spin but those aircraft were. VERY forgiving. stall in this Hawker appears to be way more than i’d care to sample.
Stall test in Colorado during the winter months and pilots not having prior experience can be a terrible decision.
I was once in a small commercial plane over Colorado during a blizzard. We hit one spot that bounced us so hard that our purses and other items hit the ceiling of the plane.
When we got to Denver (which had been closed for some time), we were met with multiple fore trucks. We landed on solid ice, but the pilot got us stopped just in time at the end of the runway. He got an ovation from the passengers.
The pilot was highly-skilled with 16,000 hours.
Thrust levers idle isn’t for compressor stall, its so you don’t introduce a pitching moment during the stall.
Thank you as always for a very professional video. I have worked on Hawkers since the 1980s and as you say complex aircraft to test stall . Again thank you for some of the best aviation content on youtube. yours Martin.
I've done a 12 year wing de-mate stall test on a Lear 25. You go to full stall break straight ahead and while turning too!
Interesting times back then 🙂
I was the idiot that got to ride jumpseat on one of those flights in a garbage scow 25 and adjust the stall computers.
So wild seeing the pilot do a hard full aileron snap, push the yoke to the panel and hammer the power levers all in one fluid movement. Those straight pipe 610s were the shit tho !
We had layers of lead plates bolted to the floor next to the door to keep the CG fwd @@tyronetrump1612
@@1964Mooney You were blessed - All I got was rachet strapped sandbags lol