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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor in advance? A WWII Myths show
With Paul M. Sparrow
Part of our WWII Myths series of short shows
• WWII Myths - A series ...
This is a new type of show for the channel. Our guest historian will examine a popular claim made about the Second World War and either confirm or debunk it. There probably won't be time for questions from viewers but we hope the shorter length will be popular.
Was President Roosevelt aware of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened? This claim is still being made 82 years on from the events of December 1941. We look at the claim with FDR expert Paul M. Sparrow.
Paul Sparrow is a very successful documentarian and TV producer who, among other things, served as the Director of the FDR Library and Museum. He has a Masters of Fine Arts from the Center for Contemporary Music at Mills College and an undergraduate degree from the University of California at Santa Cruz. / paulmsparrow1
www.fdrlibrary...
Paul's previous appearance:
The Road to Casablanca - FDR, Churchill and the planning of Operation Torch
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I was once confidently told that Queen Elizabeth II knew about the attack but Churchill told her to keep quiet. Though how a 15 year old girl knew about it was not explained.
That's an example of how conspiracies can sometimes start with a genuine questioning of events, but then go full "tin-foil hat"
What rubbish
Indeed and Stuart was being sarcastic
If thats true, Surely---it came from her future husband, Prince Phillip, ( they had Holidayed before the war) who served aboard a British Naval ship, and had high ranking associates, like Naval Big-wig Earl Mountbatten. Far Eastern Chief?
@@MrDaiseymay You do not know much Mountbatten was an uncle of the Queen
This whole “myth” series is absolutely brilliant! Thank you Paul for hosting this cadre of experts.
As Indy Neidell said, whatever you think of FDR, he wasn't stupid. He and the Navy expected Japan to attack the Philippines. Attacking American troops in the Philippines would start a war that would unite Americans. So even if you assume FDR was trying to provoke a war (instead of using nonviolent sanctions to stop aggression), he had no reason to let half his beloved fleet get sunk.
_He and the Navy expected Japan to attack the Philippines._
That was the original Japanese plan, until Yamamoto rammed through his Pearl Harbor attack idea.
@@primmakinsofis614 , right, but Roosevelt and the Navy were half right. Japan did attack the Philippines, but with planes based in Taiwan, before landing an invasion force a few days later.
FDR's nonviolent sanctions along with his relocation of the United States Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor and the US military aid to the Republic of China were the provocation. Japan was completely dependent on US oil prior to the Roosevelt Administration's embargo against Japan. It is very much the miscalculation of the Roosevelt Administration in how hard they could push Japan that directly led to the attack on Pearl Harbor. I don't believe that they had foreknowledge of the attack but they did take actions that led Japan to view the US as an enemy nation and were certainly casual to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
@@josephahner3031 True, but if FDR had done nothing, wouldn't you criticize FDR for complicity while Japan slaughtered millions of Chinese and other Asians? (Some 18 million civilians died in countries Japan occupied.) The biggest miscalculation was by Japanese leaders, who thought it was a good idea to attack a country with twice its population and maybe 10 times its industrial capacity. A rational government would have made a deal with the US.
@@josephahner3031 The provocation was Japan's brutal war in and occupation of China.
That was the ultimate cause.
In a time when battlships were considered THE ships, one would be crazy to willingly letting the enemy have a unobstructed go at them.
But then again there is the "We are so good, so it can not ever have happened with out us knowing" mentality.
Great show.
It was a carrier that crippled Bismarck. The Royal Navy had caught the Italians at Taranto. People already knew carriers were the future.
@@TheLucanicLordexactly. That's why the carriers were at sea and the ancient battleships were in harbor
@@TheLucanicLord You are right, most people were coming around to carriers were the future. But the people in charge had grown up and matured under the battleship in the line of battle is a measure of a nations strength and still considered the battlewagons as the dominant warship in naval warfare. Taranto was only a small action with one carrier on the British side and even they did not consider it important enough to replace the carrier that was supposed to be with Force Z but was damaged enroute and never made it to Singapore.
Battleships were a dying breed. Two modern battleships were built already to answer the Bismarck (South Dakota I forgot the other one) 4 New Jersey class were laid down but 15 Fleet carriers also under construction. 4 Montana class battleships were started as well but cancelled. So the the Navy knew which way to go by 1940. Before the war even started. This does not include the 40 plus small "jeep carrier s" used to ferry planes and ASW work.
The poster is correct, at the time of Pearl harbor the dreadnought battleships were still considered the heart of the navy, they still envisioned battleships going gun to gun. Yes, the Bismarck was sunk by carrier based planes but that was one instance. If you look at the carriers we had at Pearl, they were small in number and they also were kind of outdated. There were plans to build whst would be jme the Essex class carriers but they were not a priority before Pearl.
So the theory that sent the carriers to sea bc they knew fails, bc if they were going to protect anything they would protect the battleships.
The other thing is if the navy really didn't care about battleships, why did they build so many of the Missouri class dreadnoughts? Btw the battleships weren't obsolete, they were incredibly effective as basically naval artillery used to pound the islands before amphibious landings. They were very effective, bc the 16 inch guns ca hit targets as far as 15 miles. In fact in Vietnam they used the old WWII battle wagons to hit targets inland, aircraft were getting shot down hitting these targets, the battleships saved a lot of pilots and planes.
Very interesting program. From what I have read, it sounds as though Washington knew something was up just not where. It sounds as though the commanders were notified to be on alert, and I think I am most disappointed by MacArthur's lack of action in the Philippines. Excellent program with facts to back it up. Great program Paul!
Grew up with the ‘Great MacArthur’spell. But on Dec 8 1941…. He utterly failed to prepare for attack. To be honest MacArthurs’ greatest success was probably being transition leader in postwar Japan
Yes. The United States knew something. Not about an attack on Pearl Harbor. It was clear, when we cut off oil to Japan to try to curb their aggression against Asia, Japan would back down or go to war against someone. Maybe against the Dutch and British off South East Asia, to seize the Dutch oil. Maybe also against the United States, which makes no sense because, on paper, the U. S. should beat Japan. Where an attack against the British and Dutch might work and they could get the oil they need from the Dutch.
The lack of progess in negotiations made it clear they were not backing down. And intercepts of diplomatic communicates received a day ahead of time made it clear that a declaration of war was coming against the U. S. Something Roosevelt did not want because war with Japan will draw away America's support for Europe, which Britain and the U. S. S. R. really needed.
But by a miracle, it worked out because Hitler did the unpredictable. Made the very dumb decision to declare war on the U. S. At that point, he was done. You could stick a fork in him.
MacArthur failed because he was just like most other U.S. officers, unwilling to think of the Japanese armed forces as at least as skilled as the American forces.
"From what I have read, it sounds as though Washington knew something was up just not where." This is true. The Japanese invasion force targeted against Singapore could not avoid detection -- too much British merchant shipping in the South China Sea, too many eyes watching -- therefore the Japanese took advantage of that situation to distract from their other operations: the Hong Kong invasion force, the Philippines invasion force, the Dutch East Indies invasion force, and the First Air Fleet poised to attack Pearl Harbor.
Admiral Kimmel and General Short, the Navy and Army commanders in Hawaii, were not given the results of the MAGIC codebreaking effort, which was a gross oversight on the part of both military and civilian leaders in Washington. MAGIC decoded diplomatic communications in Japan's Purple code system and so it was not nearly as specific as to times and targets as would have been decoded military communications, but the information Washington had was enough to have potentially changed the result of the Pearl Harbor attack.
Mac Arthur should have been fired for his many blunders in the Philippines, but the United States badly needed a "hero". The troops MacArthur led in the defense of the Philippines fit that bill far more than their commander did, but they were not given the means by which to escape the battlefield when things were obviously failing as MacArthur was.
FDR had been the Asst. Sec. of the Navy. He would have never allowed harm to come to the Navy he loved.
I'm currently reading Josh Levines book Operation Fortitude which mentions the Japanese asking the Germans about the details of the Taranto raid in summer 1941. The Germans sent an agent (Dusko Popov who was a Double XX agent working for Britain) over to the US and the Abwehr were asking him to go to Hawaii to check out the naval base as the Japanese are interested. These requests were passed across to US intelligence and brought to the attention of J Edgar Hoover but he ignored this intel because he hated Popov and subsequently didnt believe him and never passed on the warnings to FDR.
You are correct about Dusko Popov sharing the Japanese interest in Pearl Harbor with the FBI, but J. Edgar Hoover buried that information and never passed it to FDR.
One other issue was that the attack on Taranto took place in the second week of November 1940. The Japanese did not start planning the attack until early 1941.
This correlates with Gordon Prange's Book " Pearl Harbor - A Verdict in History" Prange obviously cites the FDR Library as one of hundreds of sources. He also debunks all of the conspiracy theories and there are a lot of them. And covers many of the mistakes made by everyone from the top to the bottom and how those in charge at Pearl through their mindsets failed to take action prior to events. The worse for me is the fact that Rear Admiral CC Bloch commander of the 14th Naval district at Pearl and responsible for the Navy's defense, put all the blame on Short and Kimmel for his own failures and got away with it. That shit pisses me off to no end.
i was just about to mention Popov. read a book of his spy ring he ran and how he became a spy. too be fair you got say ten spies passing info on pending trouble brewing.. who do you believe. also no set date. like when. 2weeks, 1week or days. then you got where. i do think Popov had the best info as he was saying with in weeks and Pearl.
Why would they need to ask the Germans they had embassies in Rome get the information from the Horses mouth
To confuse the situation, British Malaya was attacked (including troop landings) in the early hours of the 8th of December 1941. About an hour before the Attack on Pearl Harbor.
Damn the International Date Line.
Great pod cast, thank you both!
13:40 The First Air Fleet's primary radio operators weren't even aboard. Nagumo left them behind on Iturup Island in the Kuriles (Hitokappu Bay), the staging area where the tankers rendezvoused with the Pearl Harbor attack force. These radiomen kept up a constant flow of ship-to-ship chatter to fool the Americans into locating Nagumo's force in home waters.
Excellent point. I have used this multiple times arguing with Rich Haver over reliability of SIGINT.
The fleet carrier USS Enterprise was originally scheduled to be in Pearl Harbor before Dec. 7, 1941. The only reason it hadn't arrived was a series of weather delays it encountered several hundred nautical miles to the west. As a result, Enterprise was quite luckily absent from the Japanese attack since it was still 200 nautical miles (roughly half a day) west of Pearl Harbor on December 7. If anyone had intentionally kept this fleet carrier out of Pearl Harbor the morning of the attack, they would have had to have a pretty good agreement with Mother Nature so she could stir up a few severe storms to delay the arrival of Enterprise. This negates the argument that the Navy intentionally kept all its carriers out of Pearl because it knew about the attack in advance and was okay with losing a few rusty old battleships but not its precious fleet carriers. True, the carriers were prime targets for the Japanese, but all evidence points to their absence as being due to good luck; weather delays, and previously scheduled exercises, rather than a conspiracy to protect them and sacrifice everything else.
All the battleships based at Pearl Harbor were "standards" -- all of them designed before 1920 and none capable of more than 22 knots, most slower than that, making them 8-10 knots slower than the carriers. Carriers sortied with cruisers and destroyers, rarely with a battleship.
Of course they debunk it. Just like Hitlers death in the bunker. It’s BS started by inteligence
This guy is part of the establishment. FDR had to get the US into the war to save Britain. The real secrets are held by the CIA.
@@enscroggs they were still powerful, because of lack of battleships us was not able to land wherever in they want until 2 years later when iowa class battleships and other new ones are sent to front.
God saved the Enterprise.
Excellent debunking. Nicely done. Thank you gentlemen.
@10:20 Mr. Sparrow stated the USS Saratoga was the carrier in the foreground. In fact, it was the carrier in the background. The carrier in the foreground is the USS Ranger I believe. One can always tell the Saratoga because of the black stripe painted on the funnel.
Yup. Saratoga had a black vertical stripe, Lexington had the Horizontal stripe at the top of the funnel and the carrier in the foreground is Ranger.
Once again well done, I think your guest made a compelling case debunking the myth.
Love these myth videos 👍🇺🇲
I think so too
This was too big a risk to contemplate as a political ploy, that simple. What bothers me is the casual dismissal of the radar report that could have given earlier warning , that was irresponsible, as well as MacArthur’s subsequent inaction right after learning about the attack on Hawaii. I especially appreciated the reference to Roosevelt’s long and close relationship with the Navy. I am always extremely appreciative of you and your guests’ presentations. When rarely faced with all-knowing “experts” I like to ask what would change their minds, usually there is some brief fear in their eyes, that’s, at least, something. Thanks as ever
The main reason that pearl harbour took was racial. The commanders in pearl did not believe the little slant eyed yellow me could carry it out.
Great presentation
Woody/Paul. A VERY interesting presentation! Thanks, Bob
Great presentation, as usual, Woody. Thanks to Paul.
Awesome content gonna rewatch this one for sure
Japanese did make actually some ships fake radio comms of the Carrier Fleet in Sea of Japan while the real deal was sailing stormy waters towards their intended target in total EMCON. They really did their homework there...
Even if you concede that FDR wanted a war and knew about the impending attack, it makes no sense for Pearl to be completely unprepared. All that was necessary for the war to begin was for the Japanese to show up and start shooting. Getting you butt kicked on day 1 is a terrible strategy.
The military establishment at the Canal was on full alert.
Outstanding!
Thank you kindly!
One important point everyone misses is that the Japanese were planning to give Washington a declaration of war one hour before Pearl Harbor, but it was a weekend, the declaration of war wasn't ready in time. So if FDR knew the Japanese plans, he wouldn't have expected a surprise attack, that wasn't the plan. He had no way of knowing the war declaration would be late.
The final message was NOT a declaration of war. Japan may have considered it such, but the text of that message does not use such language. You can read it for yourself online; this is how that 14-part message ends:
_The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the American Government that in view of the attitude of the American Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiations._
@@primmakinsofis614 It was a rejection of America;'s peace terms. None of this makes pretending America did not know an attack was coming when it did necessary.
Saratoga is the carrier in top of photo. Ranger in front and Lexington in center. Saratoga had a large vertical stripe on its stack to be able to tell it apart from Lexington.
Yep, Paul made a slip of the tongue, it happens
@@WW2TV figured that, but thought folks might like to know how to tell the Lexington and Saratoga apart.
@craigplatel813 indeed. My grandfather served on Lady Lex in the 1930s! My favorite flat top!
I didn't see your comment and I made the same comment. Sorry.
In the photograph of the 3 carriers during Fleet Problem #18 in 1938 (at 10:00), it is the USS Ranger CV-4 in the foreground, next is Lexington CV-2, and Saratoga CV-3 furthest from the camera. Note the short aft smokestacks on Ranger, the vertical stripe on Saratoga's funnel and Lexington's horizontal funnel stripe.
Yep, Paul Sparrow remembered the order incorrectly
@@WW2TV I figured as much - hard to mistake a Lex or Sara for anything else! Cheers, Paul!
Paul and Paul thanks for a great presentation on this matter. Paul your channel is fantastic.
Chaos, cock-up and confusion plays its part in the outcomes of military and other operations.
I once knew a bloke who sank an Italian cruiser.
But if the aircraft in front of his had no broken down while taxiing from dispersal, he would not have missed the group take off of his squadron.
Instead, he ended up flying alone, trying to find both the Italian fleet and the rest of his squadron.
His air gunner then spotted the fleet, who had been briefed to expect air support. So they mistook his aircraft for a 'friendly' until he hit their biggest ship with a torpedo.
When you've never seen either a Ju-88 or a Beaufort before, it would be easy to mistake one for another.
WW2TV knocking it out of the park today! Great presentation!!
Thank you
I forgot the Admirals name but he was well known by Admiral Husband Edward Kimmel. Kimmel told him he was concerned that the Japanese could use torpedo bombers in an attack at Pearl Harbor. The other Admiral respondes that it was too shallow for a torpedo attack at Pearl Harbor. He knew when he said that to Kimmel that the British had used a torpedo attack against the Italian fleet at Taranto and it was successful and shallower than Pearl Harbor. In fact why did he cover up that fact when Kimmel mentioned his concerns. It was in I believe 1946 or 1947 that Kimmel learned of the American equivalent of the British Inteligence computer decoder that Turning got working for the British. He then got a Congressional Committee to look into the matter. The Congress found Kimmel not quilty of being respnsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor. It was found that Kimmel was not given enough information to prevent the attack. They also found evidence that there probably was a conspiracy against Kimmel and that senior Admiral responded many time to questions, " I do not recall". Many people will say it is quite ofter used by guilty people that know there is no evidence to convict them.
His family for many years have tried to get a US President to exonerate him and return his rank to him even though he has been dead for many years. One American historian said that would never happen, and if it did Franklin D. Roosevelt would have to answer a question, what did he know and when did he know it. There are too many questions here as there are more than what I have stated. You can have all the inquireries you want, if you want a certain outcome, you can arrange it. For example how the Vietnam war started, the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, recently some truth is slowly coming out of President Kennedy assassination. The Sercret Service agent that jumped on the back of the car right after he was shot changed his story after all these years. The list just goes on and on.
Kimmel and the Marine General got shafted and the Congressional Committee concluded that in the late 1940's. So much for disproving myths. The facts are out there, you just need to look a little harder. I found it so can you. I actually watched it on TV many years ago, it could even be 20 years ago.
Agree to disagree
@@dukeford This was not on the internet, this was a TV Documentary that I watched and only 5 or so years ago. You obviously have not hurt my feels as I know what I saw and I have been accused by many, and I will use my ex wife's quote, " You biggest problem is that you never forget anything. Everyday is a new day for me, you live on your memories in the past.". I also know by how you responded that it was all emotion to you and no thought. So all I can say is have a nice day. Hint: you can alway determine a persons inner feelings by the words that they chose.
Admiral Kimmel and General Short were the men in charge at the time of the attack, and the first responsibility of the 'man (or woman) in charge when things go wrong is to 'carry the can'. Or rather, it was then. These days, they might resign, but it essme that the bigger the catastrophe, the bigger the 'golden handshake'...
The Japanese actually attacked the British First. Japanese forces landed in North Malaya 45 minutes before the attack on Pearly Harbor although I do suspect there was insufficient time for Singapore to let London never mind Washington know
The Americans knew in plenty of time to warn Pearl Harbour. Notwithstanding the fact that we know only in hindsight how crucial the warning would have been, it is baffling how lax those responsible were. I believe that after the attempts at radio contact failed the officer in charge let the communication sit on his desk for a while before doing anything and that he could in fact have used his personal lines to warn Pearl in time, but for some reason chose not to. One would think that a quick call to San Francisco and a plane dispatched from there post haste would have been in order, if all else failed. A civvy telegram seems ridiculous given the urgency. As for Kimmel, he seems to have been unfairly treated, but one wonders why there were no standing air patrols or reconnaissance patrols given the tensions.
WHY does this continue: POLITICS and the disbelief that we could have been so unprepared and poorly led militarily.
This was the best presentation I've seen debunking the notion that FDR knew about the impending Pearl Harbor attack. I think the best points Paul Sparrow presented was regarding motive. FDR's decission to move the fleet to Pearl Harbor has been framed by his detractors as purposely putting the fleet in harms way. We were having trouble with Japanese aggression for a number of years prior to the war. I think Paul's interrpetation of the move to Pearl Harbor as a way of projecting power makes more sense. He also pointed out that while FDR wanted to get involved in the War in Europe and that he did not want to start a war with Japan and gave evidence to that effect. Declaring war on Japan does not get you into a war with Germany and it uses up resources. Hitler obligeed by declaring war on us. WW2 was the one war in the 20th century that I think the US needed to be involved. We were the deciding factor in both theaters. Just imagine what the world would have become had we not participated...
Another thing the conspiracy theorists forget to deal with is that the US didn't know about the modified torpedoes with wooden fins that could operate in less than forty feet of water. The US also didn't know about the modified battleship shells the Kates were armed with. Was Roosevelt provoking the Japanese into shooting up army airfields and dive bombing a few battleships? Why would Japan do that?
Based on the many books I've read on the subject, I'm of the opinion that FDR knew that war was imminent and that several of the steps he had taken hastened the march to war, but that he had no specific knowledge of an attack on Pearl Harbor. It all boils down to a similar thing we saw before 9/11: we failed to appreciate what an enemy COULD do and chose to defend only against what we thought they MIGHT do.
So you believe planes actually hit the twin towers?
Very enjoyable
We live in an age of radar networks now. We did not have an extensive intelligence network then. Pear harbor and the threat of nuclear attack is why we have such things now. Which is why i still cannot understand how 911 happened in New York.
That was very interesting. I didn't know FDR sent a letter to Emporeor Hirohito until now.
Jon Parshal writes that the Navy didn’t break JN25 until March 1942. Kimmel knew nothing about MAGIC or PURPLE until after he was retired. Adm Stark had read the 14th part of the Japanese message over an hour before the Pearl Harbor attack, but he never called Adm Kimmel.
That is correct.
I wonder why the Navy didn’t do to Adm Stark what they did to Adm Kimmel. Was Adm Kimmel ever told or sent info about the British modifying torpedoes to work in shallow harbors? ( I don’t remember.)
@@user-wo4kn6ge6j Kimmel knew about the attack on Taranto.He really didn't think it would work at Pearl Harbor.By October the chance of an attack on Pearl was much less likely.By November the weather in the North Pacific is so bad that they wouldn't risk going that route.At least that's what they thought.
I cannot imagine a scenario where FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, but Ernest King did not. I also cannot imagine that King would have played along.
That’s a good point
Ernie King was CinC of the Atlantic Fleet in December 1941. He wasn't running the Navy yet.
@@dukeford My chronology was off a bit, so thanks for the correction. However, I think the larger point is that FDR would not have been the only person with such information, and it defies logic, at least in my mind, that everyone would have gone along with things, especially at senior levels of the Navy.
@@gizmophoto3577 I agree. FDR would not have had any more info than King's predecessor, Betty Stark.
What is never mentioned is that Roosevelt and Chruchill had already agreed to a Germany first strategy. The last thing FDR wanted was for the country to get diverted in the Pacific. Germany was under no obligation to come to the aid of Japan unless Japan was attacked. Hitler decided to declare war against the US on December 11. Had he not done so the US would have ignored Germany and just gone after Japan. War with the US was inevitable but the longer peace was maintained the more resources would have been committed to the Pacific.
I also.think people under 60 project modern intelligence capabilities back to 1941. However, intelligence organizations had no persistent ISR capability. You just got tinelate snapshots of Japanese dispositions and movement. US, Commonwealth and Durch commanders had a very appreciation of Japanese intentions in the Far East. ADM Tommy Hart, Commander of the Asiatic Fleet headed the warning of imminent hostiles sent by Naval Intelligence (OP-20G) and moved most of his surface assets Southeast from Subic Bay.
Navy cryptologists did crack JN 25 prior to December 7th but IJN changed the code in November and again on December 1. It took until March of 1942 to begin recovering the current variant.
7:25 OMG the best point ever that no one ever talks about ......... I'm fully stealing that , like it's a no brainer really ....... Roosevelt didn't want to go to war with Japan he wanted a war with Germany , just to repeat how true that statement was
"Germany First" was the American strategy that came about through the Plan Dog Memorandum and the Rainbow war plans. But the Rainbow war plans were plans developed for coalition warfare by the United States and our allies against Germany, Italy and Japan. (By the way: Admiral Stark's Plan Dog memo is available in the FDRL---a superb archival source---and online from the FDRL.) Andrew McKane IV, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii.
Remember FDR had approved the "shoot-on-sight" order for the US Navy to attack Uboats in summer 1941. And by all accounts, USA & Germany were in a de facto state of war in the Atlantic by December 1941. FDR probably did hope sanctions would drive the Japanese towards the Dutch East Indies and he could then enter into the war with Germany at a time of his choosing in 1943, once the American war industry had built him a sufficient two-ocean navy in order to combat both Axis powers. Germany First was always his priority.
The cure for this notion is knowledge of history. The theory and the overall fact pattern don’t fit each other. Worth consideration is admiral Yamamoto. He was forward thinking, airpower oriented, a poker player who was willing to take calculated risks. The US was not out-thought by the Japanese, but rather by Yamamoto. Going to war with the USA was a big gamble, so they had to take big chances, such as Pearl Harbor and Midway.
Some other factors: in late 1941 the IJN would increase it’s fleet carrier capacity by more than 50%, from 4 to 6, with the excellent Shokaku class. This capability enabled the airstrike on Hawaii. It was probably not considered by the US before Dec 7. Also the task force sailed from a remote anchorage in the Kuril Islands, which was isolated from intelligence gathering. The IJN put together a ‘perfect storm’.
That was great. I'd love to hear Paul do a deep dive into FDR during WWII.
3:41 probably enough paper to sink more than the Japanese did , found nothing I bet besides the glaringly obvious lack of preparedness
I agree that FDR didn't know about Pearl Harbor; the question should be whether FDR knew Japan was about to attack the US in the Pacific. We were decoding and reading Japan's diplomatic mail faster than the Japanese ambassadors. The Roosevelt administration is rumored to have had expected the attack somewhere else (the Philippians). The Fleet in Hawaii not considered to be at significant risk. The War Department's infamous warning telegram was delayed, being delivered to Admiral Kimbel after the attack had already occurred.
The effect of two vital communications being delayed, one Japanese and one American, had on history.
In the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora" the fact the US suspected Japan was going to do something in the Pacific was openly followed as the first half of the movie deals with US intelligence trying to figure out what the Japanese were going to do. But the information for Purple was not complete enough to determine details only a general picture of an attack was possibly coming in the nebulous future.
Roosevelt was an unabashed Navy Man. He understood as well, or better, than any previous president what an incredible investment in public capital it took to create, staff and effectively run an armored leviathan like a Battleship - which, prior to December 7th, was unquestionably the most powerful, expensive and resource-intensive to operate weapon system then in existence. It is impossible to sell me on the idea that Roosevelt would have knowingly sacrificed such a weapon (let alone the entire collection of them then assigned to the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor) in order to 'sell' his war with Japan.
It would have cost literally nothing to allow the Japanese to attack, but to first warn the the fleet to increase it's readiness (which clearly never happened) so that an attack wouldn't also be a disaster for American arms right at the start of hostilities. If the Japanese attacked, it mattered little whether the attack was 'successful' or not - merely that it was undertaken by surprise, and deliberately by the Japanese Empire. So why not warn the fleet? There is zero upside that wouldn't have still existed with a ready fleet, and significant downside of risking the loss of such a powerful weapon for no concrete gain - either strategically or politically - that just wouldn't exist with a less successful attack (perhaps an argument could be made for a less vigorous response from the American public absent the real-life disaster that was Pearl Harbor, but he would still have his war, with his chosen opponent, started by their deliberate action in firing the first shot - why add the potential for 3 smoking, unusable, sunken hulks to the equation for no sure added gain?). The idea that a 'disaster' was necessary to sell this war is putting the cart before the horse - no one would willingly make that trade when a single dead sailor and a damaged ship by surprise attack would've still been sufficient to declare War.
Of course, many could - and did - seriously underestimate the ability and effectiveness of the Japanese Kido Butai. Nevertheless, the only way this theory of pre-knowledge of Japanese specific intention is believable would have been at least a last-minute warning to the fleet prior to the attack.
The reality was quiet the reverse. The Americans knew the Japanese were coming. They could not decide if the Philippines of Hawaii would get hit. The whole reason those ships were put there was a deterrent, not as bait
I wonder if that's why General Marshall never let the President call him "George."
"Listen you damn Navy loving so and so, I AM Army Chief of Staff General Marshall. No way in hell do you get to call me 'George!'"
Yes, this is an attempt at humor....
Damn! Just five minutes too late to catch this live.
12:57 "Signal sources moving in an easterly direction" Lurlene might have picked up transmissions from Enterprise or Lexington. Both were at sea and headed back toward Pearl Harbor. "An unknown telegraphic code..." Lurlene's radio operators probably didn't know USN codes, either.
Thank you for this. I have been trying to explain this to people forever. One of the major points I alwasy make was how dismissive Naval intelligence was of the Japanese navy and air arm.
Clair chennault leader of the flying tigers in China reported the presence of the new zero fighter to the dept of the army. They came back to him stating that they had consulted with us aircraft designers who told them such a plane could not be built. The implication being that if us designers could not build a plane with these specifications then the japanese certainly could not do so. The British were the same. The brewster buffalo fighters stationed in malaya could have handled the previous model of fighter but not the zero especially in experienced hands.
I listened to an audiobook, think it was called "Countdown to Pearl Harbor", and it seemed like nobody made a big balls-up, but lots of people made small ones that compounded.
10:22 The aircraft carrier in the foreground ("in the front") is not Saratoga, but USS Ranger (CV-4), the first purpose-built, from the keel up, commissioned into the fleet. The earlier carriers -- Langley, Lexington, and Saratoga -- had all been conversions from other types. (Langley started her life as the collier USS Jupiter; Lexington and Saratoga were laid down as battlecruisers, but completed as carriers.) Ranger was considered to be too small for the Pacific, consequently, she spent most of her war experience in the Atlantic protecting convoys.
Another great myth busting presentation. My only add on would be to mention that the first person to attack Pearl Harbor by air in exercises was Rear Admiral Harry Yarnell...who did so in 1932 with USS Lexington and USS Saratoga. 😁
Add on to that the fact that Adm. King also attacked Pearl Harbor during a fleet exercise while in command of a task group headed by Lexington.
@@danielbackley9301 They talked about that exercise in this video...which is why I mentioned that Yarnell did it first. LOL
I have read that planning the attack on Pearl Harbor had been the final exam problem at the Japanese naval academy since about that same year. Is that a myth?
@@iKvetch558 King commanded the Lexington under Yarnell in 1932.
@@dukeford Nice...that makes a lot of sense, I had never learned that...thanks for the comment. 👍
Irony, the Japanese did hit the Philippine bases, only hours after they hit Pearl Harbor, so MacArthur (commander of Philippine forces) had real warning but did squat.
Note: The Pearl Harbor attack, was ONLY part of the bigger operation, to capture the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia) for its oil. Remember, Roosevelt cutoff Japan from American oil.
The first attack was against British Forces in Malaysia prior to Pearl Harbour!
MacArthur should have been sacked along with Kimmel and Short. One could make the case that he was even more culpable than they were.
@@StuartTheunissen Oh yes old dug out again
@@StuartTheunissen Why don't you explain to us why MacArthur wasn't sacked.
@@jerryg53125 Hardly a secret, MacArthur's public profile was the only thing keeping him in his job in 41/42. If MacArthur was a master of anything, it was the art of self promotion.
The code discussion leaves a lot to offer. While the US hadnt broken the naval codes, they had broken the purple codes. In the purple codes the Japanese negotiators were given a drop-dead date of November 27th to strike a deal with the Americans.
This is important because after this date if no deal could be reached then the Kido Butai would set sail to America under radio silence (which you just covered), and even if a deal was struck after the 27th, the fleet wouldn't know about it and carry on with their attack.
It was known to FDR And US intelligence that this 27th deadline was given, and any high ranking, seasoned military intelligence officer worth their paycheck would've been able to infer why a drop-dead date was given, and that the US absolutely should have been on high alert all across the Pacific for the next two weeks. It's not believable that FDR didn't know the ramifications of the drop-dead order.
Good point, we have never said that some errors of judgement weren't made at that time, but that's not the same (as I'm sure you agree) with knowing that a specific attack was coming
@@WW2TV I appreciate the response, enjoy the show and format, and am understanding to the fact that nobody can cover every angle in these complex topics in 30 minutes. Something's gotta hit the cutting floor.
However, respectfully, I am on the opposite side of this argument with you and your guest.
1. "FDR" vs "FDR administration". I believe the FDR Administration, willingly or unwillingly (wink to Harry Dexter White), was seeking confrontation with Japan.
2. The Hull Memo (written by White) demonstrates this.
3. "Did FDR know about Pearl in Advance?" No. But they knew about an attack somewhere in the Pacific. And... They were antagonizing it with my previous Phillipienes response. PH was a long shot because it was at the absolute edge of japanese capabilities. As the FDR Admin was frequently saying, they want the Japanese to "hit us but not hurt us." But the attack, which was a US casus belli, was desired.
4. There should be more discussion about the Chicago Daily Tribune's 12/5/41 exposee frontpaging FDR's War Plan Black.
The BBC did a documentary on this called "Tragedy at Pearl Harbour" where they interviewed the San Francisco based code breakers and they said the same thing! They knew something was up. Sadly, this documentary seems to have been memory holed as I can no longer find it anywhere, but it used to be in YT.
_This is important because after this date if no deal could be reached then the Kido Butai would set sail to America under radio silence (which you just covered), and even if a deal was struck after the 27th, the fleet wouldn't know about it and carry on with their attack._
Radio silence meant the fleet would not SEND transmissions; it does not prevent it from RECEIVING transmissions. My understanding is that the radios on the ships of the attack force had their keys removed, meaning there was nothing on which to type out a radio message for transmission.
On Dec. 2, the attack fleet received from Japanese high command the radio message, "Climb Mount Niitaka." This code phrase meant that the attack should proceed as planned.
@@primmakinsofis614 maybe the carriers could or couldn’t physically receive messages after 11/27, that doesn’t change the intercepted Purple Code message. From the American perspective, once reading that message, flashing red lights should have been going off, unless extremely (or willfully) negligent.
Great program.😊
Two things that dispell the myth that FDR knew that Pearl Harbor was going to happen. 1. FDR was, during WW1, Asst.Sec. of the Navy so wouldn't have let the Navy get attacked if he could prevent it. 2. FDR sent,on December 6th, sent a personal message to the Japanese Emperor for peace.
The best source for information on this is Edwin Layton's "And I Was There." Layton was Pacific Fleet's chief of intel.
FDR very definitely was trying to manipulate Japan into war. He'd gone so far as to send US-officered and Philippine-crewed boats out into the South China Sea, hoping that the Japanese would attack them. But that had nothing to do with Pearl.
And we knew that Japanese fleet had sailed, and expected them to attack, but we didn't know where. The fleet was operating under radio silence, and we could only guess as to where they were. But we'd picked up a broadcast from a destroyer in the South China Sea that had been assigned as a carrier escort, and assumed the carriers were there, and guessed that the target was Singapore. The attack was not a surprise, but the target was.
Great Episode. I would like to add: The idea that Roosevelt would want an attack of Japan, so he can declare War on the Axis only works with hindsight. Suppose Hitler didn't declare war on the US after Pearl Harbour. The Tripartite Pact was purely defensiv and even if it wasn't, Hitlers wasn't known for respecting treaties. Then Roosevelt would have a very hard time to convince the enraged american public enter a second war in Europe. Or Lendlease to Stalin, when equipment was needed to defeat those japanese Bastards.
This conspiracy theory only makes sense bc of Germanys stupid decision to declare war.
Agreed.
BRILLIANT! ThankYou!
You're welcome!
At 10.00 minutes
No, that doesn't look like the Saratoga in the "the front", but rather in the back (Lexington/Saratoga class), distinguished by their massive stacks.
The one in front looks more like the Ranger, without the stack integrated into the superstructure.
Yep Paul remembered the order in the photo wrong
@@WW2TV Not only that, but also the date.
I did a quick search, which confirms the names of the carriers, and the photograph, but states the date as "1936". Whatever, it is not a major thing. 👍
From the 14 part Japanese diplomatic message, Roosevelt and other leaders knew an attack was coming, just as the guest says. Kimmel and Short were warned and should have ordered air patrols. In my opinion, they should have dispersed fighters and ordered that the maximum possible number of watertight doors on ships. If the Navy had torpedo nets, it should have been deployed. I don’t know if the Navy had torpedo nets at Pearl Harbor.
Knew an attack was a possibility, but where and when?
There were no torpedo nets at Pearl Harbor. The Navy thought that Pearl Harbor was too shallow for aerial torpedoes to run.
More to the point, according to Walter Lord's book, Day of Infamy, General Short's principal concern was not air attack, but sabotage by a 'Fifth Column' of the Japanese residents of Oahu. Which is why the planes were all grouped together.
With conspiracy theorists the only thing that matters is whether some event confirms their distrust in government and the system - the details are unimportant.
Saratoga is the far carrier; Lexington is in the midrange; Ranger is in the foreground of the photo. Saratoga was distinguished in this period by the vertical black stripe on her funnel.
In the cauldron is an excellent recent book on Grew's last year in Japan. Written in 2019 by Lew Paper.
Before carrier group attack Pearl Harbor, their was an attack before that already, the IJN were using 4 midget subs, which were not easy to detect by radars, they tried to damage ships not with type 93 torps, it was type 95, they all failed, and midget subs had very low oxygen capacity, so they can't stay underwater for too long, they were using a cargo ship to carry those midget subs, also the carrier group were staying out of radar range
The reason you can easily find that clip where it is announced at Pearl that 'this is no drill' is because they had been drilling all year, over and over, for a Japanese attack. My personal theory is that Washington very wisely didn't warn Pearl that the attack was coming because they knew, and Nimitz states this in his autobiography, that day the US Navy's old WWI battleship got into battle it was very likely going to get very badly damaged. Now while it is true the US could well afford to lose these old hulks, it was very true that losing the crews would have been the real disaster. All the ships that either fatally blew up or rolled over in harbor would have sunk in deep water, very likely taking with them most of their crews. These crews were vitally important for the expansion of the peacetime Navy into a much larger wartime Navy. Pearl was the safest place to leave those old hulks because the waters were so shallow, and it was also generally believed that the waters were too shallow for torpedo attack. True the British had shown there was a solution to this problem for an attacker not long before, but that was the British and not the supposedly much less capable Japanese. In deep water, the loss of US crewmen could have been, instead of the mere 2k killed at Pearl, 10k, or even more. Even more could easily have resulted from the US fleet first getting hit by the Japanese Naval Arm, and possibly even running into Japanese battleships.
Whether or not Washington had specific and accurate information about the Japanese attack was, in any guess, secondary to the understanding that losing a lot of experienced sailors on out of date ships was an unacceptable risk right off the bat. While even with advanced knowledge that a Japanese attack was about to happen, the US Navy still did not know exactly where the Japanese fleet was, but the Japanese fleet could certainly be assumed to know exactly where the majority of the US ships were.
That is not a reason to forego giving a few hours warning. Naval forces would never have had time to get anywhere near the Japanese fleet. Fighter cover with the time to reach altitude would have been the most important measure. besides, there are bombs as well as torpedos.
@@nerdyali4154 Hardly. In those days it only took something like three to five hours for a battleship to get enough steam up to get going out of port. And then too, there was no way for Washington to have whether or not any of the boilers were already up to supply power, as was the case for Nevada, which came close to getting out but was stopped by getting damaged. Sinking these ships in the channel would have been a real problem, and deep water in which they could have sunk was hardly very far from the harbor.
An outstanding myth busting presentation. The Japanese did interpret some of FDRs policies as threatening but they were focused on getting Japan to need its aggression in China.
I meant "Japan to end its aggression in China."
😂😂😂😂
Although the Navy and Army in Pearl Harbor knew that a war was coming, and coming soon, they absolutely discounted the idea that Pearl Harbor would be a target. That influenced everything that occurred that day. The Ward’s detection and report of an enemy submarine: If there’s a submarine out there it doesn’t matter because: The Japanese will not attack Pearl Harbour. Radar seeing the Japanese aircraft: it doesn’t matter because: The Japanese will not attack Pearl Harbour. The War Warning: it doesn’t matter because: The Japanese will not attack Pearl Harbour. Get it?
One of the never ending myths of Pearl Harbor is that the US was a peaceful rich country completely oblivious to Japan’s aims and was taken completely by surprise. In the New York Times the week before December 7 there were front page stories about diplomatic failures between the US and Japan. There was an account of FDR rushing back to Washington to deal with the crisis. Washington expected an attack: but it doesn’t matter because: (you got it) The Japanese will not attack Pearl Harbour.
However the war warning was sent and that reasonably protects those politicians from blame, as one would assume that in spite of that principle “It doesn’t matter because The Japanese will not attack Pearl Harbour” you would think that the Hawaiian commanders would both agree, and then still instigate a high state of readiness. Why not just do it? If the Japanese had not come, well then it was just a drill. Wouldn’t a competent commander always want to err on the side of caution?
One of the things that angers me is the insistence from Kimmel - and through the years - that he was so badly mistreated by Washington. The US Navy fires captains who run ships aground on hidden reefs. There was the submarine commander who drove his nuke submarine into an underwater mountain. He had two US Navy charts, one had it on the map, and the other didn’t. He was fired too. Kimmel who led the US Navy’s Pacific fleet during its worst defeat in modern times tries to shift the blame to anyone other than him.
good one!
saratoga is the carrier in the middle of the photo-the stack is distinctive
How about that? Japanese Navy Officers who survived WW2 helped debunk this myth by informing us all that they were under strict orders to maintain radio silence.
I don’t believe he knew but I have to laugh when the argument is “the govt investigated itself and found no wrongdoing” 😂
One of many arguments against the conspiracy though
EVERYBODY knew about Pearl Harbor in advance! There was a missionary (can't remember who) in 1904 that said "we can send 5,000 missionaries to Japan now, or we can send 500,000 soldiers to Japan forty years from now".
You're wrong about anyone knowing but thanks for making me laugh
@@WW2TV The point is, hippie, that if you know what people are like, then you know what they will do if you let them live long enough. FDR watched Japan break every one of its treaties after WW I (fortifying all the mandate islands, etc.,) and then he watched them rape China, so, HE KNEW, and so did everyone else. Don't make ME laugh.
You're conflating a general view that a global war was coming with the knowledge of a specific attack
I'd heard this before, by someone who suggested the Americans knew the raid would take place, but didn't think the results would be as catastrophic. Seems more likely they'd lay in wait, then launch every interceptor available to engage the incoming planes.
Slightly more plausible but no proof it was the case
I mean the Japanese attacking the Philippines, Dutch East Indies Malaya and Hong Kong, later Solomons would be the last straw for the US anyways, I mean after the embargo the only way Japan wants to expand is to attack Southeast Asia, Philippines are US territories and Us would definitely respond with force if the Philippines are attacked, DEI are Dutch but the US would also respond, same goes with Malaya and Hong Kong since it's British territories the US would respond with the the British, the US already tired of Japan expansionism in China and then the Panay incident
FDR did not know that they would attack Hawaii, but he knew that attack was imminent somewhere in the Pacific. He should have put the entire Pacific on the highest possible alert. He did not. Hawaii soldiers were on leave in 😊town.
You're mistaking the notion of the "possibility" of an imminent Japanese attack with actual advance warning. As Paul Sparrow said, all sorts of rumours about all sorts of Japanese attacks had been coming up for months. The question was/is- were these claims credible?
When's imminent though ? If I had a dollar for every imminent end of the world , imminent collapse of the economy , etc etc hell a climate disaster is imminent do you see anyone doing anything about it ?
Hell I bet you don't believe the last one , hence the no action
Sounds like a knock on the military leadership more than on the President.
David Amble 5375's take on this is vastly more correct than Dr. Sparrow's overall claim. I believe, however, that FDR knew what would happen on the morning of 7 Dec. 1941 if the Japanese didn't accidentally make the first over act prior to the raid on the Pacific Fleet (select elements of) inside Pearl Harbor. (See OPNAV 290110 of 29 Nov. 1941 to Admiral Hart which ordered Hart to do what the President was ordering him to do with "three small vessels.") Andrew McKane IV, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii
Disagree
USS _Ranger_ is in the foreground of the photo that's on the slide that shows up at just before the 10-minute mark.
Well presented and delivered analysis on what was and was not known prior to USA entering WW2, noting, it had been running for over 2+ years by this point. The question(s) needing more analysis, was why USA Political and Military planning had not enabled greater Military asset security, when considered against a World, now 2+ years already into WW2 ??? Same can be asked of the UK with the fall of Singapore!
Oh my the some of the side bar comments a worth the reading time! I do think people sometimes substitute conspiracy theories for incompetence or lack of resources to investigate a potential problem. People and systems are not perfect but in some peoples eyes there seems to be unrealistic expectation that they should be.
Let's not forget: In those days the only way to do something that did *not* aggravate the Japanese was to do what the Japanese wanted. And given that Japan was hell-bent on conquering basically everything, that was impossible. The embargoes started with the Rape of Nanking in order to curb Japanese enthusiasm in China for which the US wanted an Open Door policy. The oil embargo was considered early on but, as it could have been - and would have been by the Japanese - construed as a hostile act, it was only enacted as an 11th hour measure, when the Japanese invasion of southern Indochina brought Japanese land based bombers within striking distance of allied bases like Singapore. So, no, FDR did not want war, neither did he want to provoke the Japanese (something that was only possible by giving them what they wanted which was impossible). And if he wanted for Japan to strike first, that is only good political sense.
If he returns, ask him to read aloud, at least discuss, the condolence letter from FDR to Mrs. Yamamoto. I couldn't ever get the link open on the library's online research archives. It wasn't ever sent her but was a spoof. We were happy he had been killed, for obvious reasons.
Revenge?
@@petefluffy7420 One can only imagine the satisfaction.
@@orlandofurioso7958 For kids and those of a similar mind.
Dude my grandfather, who was a tobacco farmer in rural SC knew a Japanese attack was coming, told me that personally, add to the fact that the carriers were conveniently absent, I find it hard to believe the President of the US was caught by surprise
Well there we go then, publish your book and make your millions lols
@@WW2TV it's called common sense, which isn't a best seller right now
Occam's razor is usually right. There is no conspiracy about Pearl Harbor. Of course there were rumors of an impending war, but no-one knew the specific attack would happen, for the reasons explained in this video, and indeed many others
Everyone suspected an attack was coming, but when where and how? There were PLENTY of other targets besides Pearl. After the fact it is easy to convince yourself that your vague, non-specific suspicions were more useful than they actually were.
@@nerdyali4154 yeah I get that, and you are correct. They suspected the Philippines or some other target. But you can understand why the SUSPICION exist, and no I don't think the Federal government (FDR or someone else) is completely exonerated. In fact it's proven that right before it happened the British had intercept communications about the impending attack and sat on them because they wanted the US in the war. It's very possible that someone in the US military also did the same.
@WW2TV A question about the FDR wanting war theory.
A few weeks ago, I watched a video (Which, frustratingly, I can't find again.) which asserted that in late 1941, the U.S. navy sent a ship to putter around in the western Pacific, hoping to draw a Japanese attack and provide the U.S. with a casus belli against Japan. When the Japanese refused to take the bait, the ship headed for home and was en route when Dec. 7 happened.
I cannot find any information on this apart from the aforementioned missing video, and wonder if you had heard of this and what was the truth - if any - of this operation.
There were a lot of gray areas in that point in world history. FDR saw Nazi Germany as a bigger threat than Japan. I heard both FDR and Churchill knew Germany was working on a super weapon that would lead to a Nazi victory but most likely didn't know it was an atomic bomb yet. From I gather Admiral King saw Imperail Japan as a bigger threat than Nazi Germany and didn't trust the British much.
Very interesting video. For whatever it might be worth, I offer this:
My great grandfather was a gentleman named O. Gaylord Marsh, who, prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, had been the US Consul in Seoul, Korea. He died before I was born, but my father says that he always insisted that FDR had to have known about it in advance, because he himself knew about it in advance. I don't know the specifics of what my great grandfather knew or thought he knew, nor how detailed that knowledge was. It may very well be that the information that he had, and passed on to or received from the State Department was vague or non-specific regarding dates and targets, just as you have suggested. I don't know. But my great grandfather was convinced.
With all due respect to great gramps, he may indeed have known one way or another, but then many people's great gramps thought they knew what was going to happen and they were all insisting they were right. How were the powers that be supposed to know who did know anything and who didn't?
@@nerdyali4154 With all due respect, "How were the powers supposed to be supposed to know?" That was kind of exactly their job. And, again, whatever information he had he either passed on directly to the State Department, because that was the exact job he was there for, or else he received it directly from State Department.
Interesting, in the picture of the three US carriers, you have Saratoga in back, Lexington in middle and front is Yorktown or Enterprise, probably Enterprise
That’s not Yorktown or Enterprise. That’s Ranger, an older and smaller carrier
@@ph89787 your correct, I missed the 6 side stacks at the rear. That is the USS Ranger in front.
Woody, have you ever thought doing a debate on the Allied strategy over the Broadfront and Narrow front for the Europe campaign between Eisenhower and Montgomery?
Hmm good idea for next June
Lets make it happen!
@WW2TV you'll be spoilt for choice regards British & American historians who make the case for either strategy. It's definitely a historical debate that has always been used as mud against the other general post war.
That is the danger, that the conversation goes rather circular. Because victory was achieved with the strategy adopted, any suggestions that it "could have been better if" are just conjecture
@@WW2TV The discussion Is certainly food for thought though 👍 Some fresh ideas to talk about in the future, look forward to watching your next 12 myth videos.
Great series! Also, McArthur was totally unprepared and left his B17s lined up in Manila for the Japanese to destroy
MacArthur had B-17's at Manilla?Who new.Maybe you mean Clark Field on the Bataan Peninsula.Those B-17's were B and C models.Totally useless again the Zero's.
@@jerryg53125what are you talking about? The B-17s weren't shot down in dogfights against zeros.
@@davidhoffman6980 Sit down and take a deep breath and try to listen.My reply was to this person who said the B-17's were lined up in Manila.They were not in Manila they were at Clark Field. In fact at least two of the B-17's were shot down by Zero's. Most of the B-17's at Clark were destroyed on the ground.The B-17 B,C and D models did NOT have tail guns.In fact those early models didn't even have a place to mount tail guns.MacArthur did have 12 new B-17E models down at Delmonte But they had just arrived and were in transit mode.
The B-17's that MacArthur had at Clark were totally useless.They were good for recon only.
Roosevelt wanted to get America into WWII, and Pearl Harbor certainly gave him the excuse he needed. Whether he knew about it in advance, is impossible to ever know for sure. Roosevelt’s supporters will always say he didn’t and his detractors will say he did.
I really appreciate this whole series really but this one in particular because it is one that is so prevalent. As a kid/teen I never would have believed it. As a young adult, wouldn’t have given it the time of day. Even as a 30 year old man I’d have dismissed it almost out of hand. But now, as I approach 40, there is that niggling voice that wonders if it might be true. The last 10 years have heavily eroded all confidence I have in “official” and “expert” reporting and research. I wish it wasn’t the case but it is true. I’ll say that this was a well thought through and logical presentation though and 99.8% of me is convinced that the conspiracy theory is bunk.
There are forces working very hard at making people skeptical of those who know what they are talking about and the great irony is that one of the strongest forces is the Russian disinformation machine. Every time Tucker Carlson shrieks "Russian disinformation" in a dismissive tone he is helping spread Russian disinformation.
Churchill knew but he decided not to tell the us
No he didn't. Like FDR there were was definitely the possibility of war coming, but no-one knew it was specifically PH on 7th
All other accounts suggest that the IJN was the most formidable NAVY around at the time- why then were they dismissed as a threat🤔
I had a feeling this topic would bring out the crazies. I admire your patience.
very good im liking this myth busting especially this one, churchill allowing coventry to be bombed is another people have confidently told me, when the truth is more interesting and is usually include bad luck and incompetence
For the other side that means luck was with them!
No idea why they didnt learn and watch General Monash of the AIF in WW1 who was the first commander who planned all arms coordination at a much higher level than ever seen before. .He had Americans under him . West Point too entitled for their own good
losing track of the japanese carriers and knowing they left the fleet, not putting the base on high alert after sinking of a japanese sub by pearl and radar picking up the incoming planes and trying to say its just b-17s from the main land when the japanese was coming from the totally opposite direction from the main land. you can't tell me some one is that incompetent. it had to be malice
I think Franklin Roosevelt used the Pacific fleet as a bait pile by moving it permanently to Hawaii, Japan barely had enough capability to reach Pearl harbor undetected and refuel at sea for battle, let alone to go that much farther to San Diego where the US fleet has been securely kept, as Roosevelt was Secretary of the Navy he knew all about the dive bombing vulnerability of pearl harbor, our own wargames proved it long before the Toronto raid, insuring Japan could sink our battleships, Roosevelt basically guaranteed a communist Chinese victory just 4 years after the war, in 1949. Franklin Roosevelt made histories biggest Mass murder (Stalin) win histories biggest war, who was more evil than that, Stalin was always ahead of Hitler in body count and was running a much bigger nation with much more natural resources, Stalin trained his only ever successor for the title of histories biggest mass murderer MAO (it took MAO decades longer). The endless supplies Roosevelt sent the communist Russians assured a 1949 Communist victory in China.1933, Newly elected president Franklin Roosevelt is photographed shaking hands with Satan's (Stalin) ambassador a few months after Stalin murdered 7,000,000 predominantly Jewish folks in Ukraine, there was cannibalism. Stalin was always far ahead of Hitler in body count. Had our battleships been left in San Diego, they probably couldn't have been attacked, they would have prevented the batan death march and enabled us to land a hundred thousand man army in mainland Asia, assuring no communist victory in China. I think Franklin Roosevelt was a communist lover.
Well, that's an opinion
Wait...what about Churchill and Stalin sharing their intel😮
Not the President only the Aircraft Carriers knew about it.............