For the record: on the video I mentioned SD making "7 million". That was a number I put out there because I couldn't remember the exact. It's $1.36M. but it didn't really matter to the point I was making at the time.
So if a journalist says that 7 million people were killed by Nazis, but it was actually only 5 people, that is ok? If you expect to be treated as an RPG journalist, get your shit together.
@@DeviousDungeonsPainting yeah but in this case it's irrelevant the whole point is just that she did really well. Whatever the exact amount vengers argument he did poorly because she did well is wrong.
@@RPGPundit absolutely, he is blaming her success for his failure. If it was so easy, he could have done the same thing. She beat him to it, She doesn't publicly choose an agenda. He shit in his own saddle and he knows it. And he says "No Regerts". Shadowdark if far from perfect, but it is much closer than CDS.
@@RPGPundit wow Pundit you take stupid comments from shitheads in stride. I need to get better at that. I would have started arguing about how only an imbecile would compare a number of people dying with an amount of money made.
Cream always rises to the top and the system is rigged cannot both be true. The Ramones were the best punk bad and they never had a number 1 song, meanwhile Green Day sold 20 million copies of Dookie alone. Van Gogh died poor. It’s a bullshit statement you’ve been taught by the ones running things so people stay in line.
Nothing about SD has stopped me from spending 8 straight weeks at the top of the OSR charts on drivethru and making my bestselling fastest-gold-status ever game. That alone shows that SD was obviously not the problem for Venger, otherwise I'd be having a bad year too.
A rising tide lifts all boats. ShadowDark will hopefully work as a gateway drug to get many people who only know 5e interested in playing something that isn't controlled by WOTC. I'm DM'ing a group right now in Shadow Dark consisting of people who have played nothing but 5e, and to that effect ShadowDark has been a great transition for them. We discussed ShadowDark briefly on your stream. I have a copy, super happy with it, but many of the "Simps" around it are selling it as something it is not. What it is is a very well written tight concise AD&D-esq game with 5e rule sensibilities. None of that is new, what ShadowDark does bring is a level of polish, in the formatting and layout that needs to be standard moving forward. What it is not is unique mechanically in any meaningful way. ShadowDark dosn't do anything new, it just did it with a level of polish and professionalism that ought to be applauded. The soft touch of the book, artwork, and excellent binding all really help sell it too. I wish both sides could all be honest about what it is. That includes the people hyping it up refusing to acknowledge what came before it, and also those refuse to recognize any of its merits.
All good points. I will say, though, that while SD doesn't _wow_ me with its mechanics, it does make a lot of smart and thoughtful decisions. It sticks less slavishly to the AD&D template than, say, Castles & Crusades, ACKS, or Hyperborea do, often to their detriment, and while it isn't nearly as innovative as a game like Dungeon Crawl Classics, it's also doesn't break as easily. Rather than swinging for the fences, it tries to get on base. I can respect that.
@@comraderaoul Agreed. If I had a group that was all about ShadowDark I could happily play it for the next year or perhaps more. However it is defiantly not my preferred system. If there is anything the OSR should take away from ShadowDark is just how practical of a book it is. Rules can be found quickly, and they are defined with no fluff. You can have fluff in your book, but when I am using the book to quickly reference something mid game I want to be in and out as quick as I can.
What you're saying is correct here. It is mechanically fine, not actually being innovative, but borrowing liberally from a variety of osr sources, is also fine. It's part of what you do in the osr. It has very high production values, was very professionally marketed, and a big part of its success is to you to all of the things written above. Some of it is also probably due to the author being a woman. Some of the marketing is in the form of encouraging a type of influencer culture that the osr didn't used to have and could be ruined by. And it isn't offensive to tell fans of Shadow dark that the mechanics they think are brand new and innovative have actually been around for nearly 15 years in the osr and are found in many excellent osr books that were published before hers.
I don't disagree. The only thing is there's plenty of other OSR games of the same kind of generic-fantasy/dungeoncrawling that doe the same. The difference is obviously production values, and marketing.
@@RPGPundit We can't play every game. Why does it make you pout when people choose hers over others? I have been playing table-top role-playing games since '83. Never have I seen such puerile behavior in the hobby than yours outside of the D&D Beyond forums.
@@Frustwell I'm not pouting at people playing it. Maybe you're thinking of Venger, or the Red Room? What I was worried about was the influx of TH-cam influencer culture into the OSR, where instead of interest in design concepts and designers by default, the OSR turn into a culture where TH-cam celebs who never wrote an RPG (and maybe played only Vampire until a year and a half back) get to declare what people should be playing, the way you see Ginny D (with three whole years of RPG playing experience) telling 5e fans what to do.
@@RPGPundit Dungeon Craft, Unscripted & Unchained, The Gaming Gang, Questing Beast, Tenkar's Tavern, etc, etc, etc. These reviewers and many others-some older than yourself and who have been playing for longer-do not fit the narrative you have just made up to justify your hate and ridicule of the game and its success. These people have been playing and promoting other OSR games for years. And still do. Interest in design concepts? The game borrowed innovations from a number of existing games and wove them into 5E's core mechanic but streamlined things for a more old school look and feel. It is what it is. Why get so worked up about its success? It is off-putting. I would happily pay money for a copy of your Cults of Chaos book. But I'd sooner support people who don't engage in tall poppy syndrome.
@@RPGPundit Some of the aforementioned TH-camrs HAVE put out their own games. Notice how they are happy for the author of ShadowDark? That is because they truly see what we have as a community. I live in a city overflowing with rock bars. When someone who worked at one opens his or her own their former coworkers don't throw tantrums. They support him or her. Go drink at his or her bar. That is because it is a community. The way you see things in the hobby as so Us versus Them-particularly when someone like KD is on the same page as us when it comes to respecting those who pioneered the hobby and paying homage to the old school-is an insult to the spirit of the game.
I just loathe that WotC is using nostalgia bait of 1980s D&D (such as using D&D cartoon characters and toys) while telling the older players like me to fuck off because they're chasing the Millennial and GenZ players (who don't have the disposable income GenX players do).
I think the first campaign setting book I opened was the 3.0 Faerun one. It had a map which I thought (and still do think) was something that is a perfect example of the level of detail required for a campaign book to show you care about the setting and its going to have what a prospective DM is going to need. A map of trade goods and trade lanes.
The quality of the content produced for the Forgotten Realms setting for 3e was absolutely fantastic. Still use it all the time in my 5e games set there.
I own both Shadowdark and your products and I like Venger’s stuff as well. I also appreciate his rebellious stance with the woke BS. Have to say he just came across as envious sour grapes. Not one of his better moments. The Red Room I think missed the mark as well. I know they have suffered as much as anyone under the cancel mob but grouping Dione in with that crowd really was as unjust. I don’t now her political viewpoint because she is not outspoken with it. We can guess left of center but thats not a crime. She expressly makes her corner of the world about bringing people together apolitically and she has excluded no one. That’s good enough. This little spat makes our side of the culture divide look petty and feeds the oppositions distorted view of us. Not helpful as we are not on the higher ground with this. Looks like Dione by just being apolitical and kind is one of the few standing on good ground.
Reminds me of the Republican primary at the end of last year. A lot of folks on the right asked how candidates could be so mean to each other, throwing metaphorical punches and jabs at fellow Republicans. This, to a limited degree, makes a group stronger. If the OSR is to survive, it will because the movers and shakers have been tried by fire.
Yeah, whatever her politics, she's not committing the cardinal sins of wokeism: being preachy, and being a d*ck to people. All players are welcome to play her game or not.
Then Venger and Rpg Pundit should not bring it up? In his first broad-side vs Shadowdark Venger brings up his lack of success being political. Rpg Pundit brings up 'simp culture'. I had no idea the creator was a woman, same for many others - I'm not even sure the Dungeon Craft video I watched on it being a cool game mentions in any overt way she is a woman or I missed it? Therein lies the problem, because it implies her success is not wholly earned by her when all she did was make the right moves, foster community and worked hard. These guys should refine their product instead of coming after a new successful product - because guess what? People these days identify with products they love and will take it personally.
@@ItsDeffoScott I would say that it's not in any way Kelsey's fault that she happens to be a woman. But because nerd culture in the hobby, it's kind of inevitable that this will actually be an advantage for any Creator or influencer. I'm not blaming her in any way for this, it's just an obvious phenomenon.
Sorry but I disagree. All the major projects I'm seeing blowing up are men right now. Saying women will get a boost, I don't really see it. There's plenty of women creators now, who is breaking through? I'm not a ttrpg vet by any standard, but I know and you surely must know in the literary space how many women operate under androgynous or male pen names still because of the authority and sales a male name gives them in the space. So the trend supports the opposite of what is asserted. Also, I'm as supportive as the most supportive person of minorities out there, but I'm not going to buy a product I will never use - I am sure everyone else is the same. And finally, people got to stop complaining about it when one woman, or one ethic minority makes a success. That's the point of a meritocracy, sometimes minorities will make it to the big leagues. Shadowdark did not release with a big sticker on the front 'WOMAN MADE', it doesn't have a big front plate photo with a photo and 'welcome to women's dark', it doesn't have an essay at the back 'my life as a woman'. You got to just believe it's a well made product and people like that, sounds obvious right? Just believe the truth.
@@ItsDeffoScott actually, if Kelsey had made a big deal of it herself, then you're right it probably would have been detrimental to her. What sense instead she has in general been as "apolitical" (for lack of a better term) about that as anything else I do think it's an advantage. Which is by no means to say, I repeat, but it's the only reason that her game did well or anything like that.
@yaboiportch You'd happily pay that price even though that price is gayness? What is happening is analogous with how posers relatively new to metal act as if they get to police it. It's behavior more becoming entitled adult-children. Not adults.
So I'm an American Expat living in Finland and over here we have this museum of gaming. One of the main attractions is a small D&D display that shows the history of the game from Chainmail all the way through 5e. At the very end and I kid you not, there was an OSR display and the two books featured there is SD and LotFP. The latter I understand since it's both OSR and from Finland lol but I was confused at SD. I thought SD was like 5e lite? Anyways, you make alot of fair points in the video and I do agree with most of what you've said. Cheers
That seems especially odd, given how recent SD is, and it has no design influence on the OSR. LotFP on the other hand was a seminal OSR work because it essentially initiated the 2nd Wave OSR movement and shifted the whole OSR away from just clone games.
The problem with 5E campaign setting books, such as Spelljammer, Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, Planescape, and Eberron, was that WotC dropped support of them afterwards. Other than Curse of Strahd (which was essentially a fluffed up Ravenloft), there were no future officially published adventures in those non-Forgotten Realms campaign settings. WotC is too creatively lazy (and have shitty designers) to make original adventures so they rely on 3rd parties on DMs Guild to do so (where they collect part of the 50% royalties and own the rights to those adventures).
@@TheMinskyTerrorist Watching a guy stream for 2 hours, where he lectures people for irrational immoral aggression towards Kelsey (and there is some of that), while he calls people that wont agree with him ' _coping arrtards nerds that need to be shoved in lockers_ ' chronically is like a vegan lecture stream where the host eats a double patty hamburger during . *Geezus* no self awareness.
It is, actually. I consider Settlers of Catan to be a pretty basic-ass board game, but if I'd never played it I'd probably still be playing Risk and Monopoly. A bridge that introduces normies to a smaller niche of the hobby is a great thing.
Basic was the best selling D&D the day they started printing it. Some of us have played since the 70s. You dont need more than BX, the rest has always been TSR & Twotc just trying to sell my books when their revenue slowed.
I'm entirely fed up with people in the west calling everything they don't like that's expressed by someone else : "hate" If *YOU* live in a bipolar state of LOVE or HATE for everything, that absurd existence is yours. The rest of us are capable of a broad spectrum of favor and disfavor. And when the topic is disfavor, we're capable of being critical without redlining the emotional needle into "hate". This is not the sign of a healthy society
@@calvanoni5443 You'll notice as they become ' disillusioned with the OSR ' (anyones right to do btw) that they are rapidly employing the substance empty emotional blackmail language of the people they spent the last few years despising for that very reason. I've watched TBE spend the day calling people with nuanced critical takes a term that sounds similar to Renard, after which he channel blocks them. The same guy that hosted a 2 hour livestream yesterday so that he could tongue-lash people for immoral and irrational attacks against Kelsey. Which there is a degree of.
A couple of the Influencers have been gathering together all the obsessives that hate me, realizing that they will throw views and superchats at them like candy if they talk crap about me. I have to admit, I'm jealous! It's a good strategy, these people are deranged obsessives desperate to hear others affirming their psychoses. They're going to get way more money out of catering to my hundreds of haters than they will to Jeffro's 25 disciples. But my jealousy passed when I realized that them doing this will only bring more attention to me, and thus ultimately more success and money, so actually they're just forming a facilitating step on the pyramid of RPGPundit success.
@@RPGPundit Just finished it, a great example about how you can have amazing story and role play with zero combat in the OSR D&D type rules and also be extremely entertaining. Bravo!
@@RPGPundit imagine how pissed off Sammy would be if finding Mendez became the main quest, it would be glorious. Specially when it turns out Mendez was the Duke of Abstinence’s Luca Brasi
⏰️ 16:07 chris perkins said in a interview that they have decades of stuff to mine. My prediction is they are just going to repackage old adventures and materials. 📝 The *New starter set* will have a remake of the keep on the borderlands.
A very diverse Keep on the Borderlands, with more ethnic diversity than the Greater Bay Area -- just like the isolated mountain town in the Amazon Wheel of Time series.
Well, that's a good point. I think he meant that in the context of the VTT, but I wouldn't be surprised if their future book or box set or other paper products end up being directly ripped off from old TSR stuff, maybe with slight woke adjustments.
@RPGPundit That's generally what i think is going to happen. It's a whole lot easier to make something if one has something to base it off. An for a group of people that have no imagination. That's really important.
This is all very well Pundit, but I'm going to wait for Meatball to weigh in on this. For the moment I just have to read into her absence and must conclude that the whole Shadowdark thing is not worthy of her presence.
Well, with all due respect to Venger.... now that the doofus incarnate that is Zak is lurking in the shadows for a re-emergence.. we can look forward to more shit storms
Dude, Shadowdark got $1,365,923 on KS no 7 million, where as MCDM got $4,600,520 on backerkit without evening having a name or a set in stone mechanic, so why all the hate for SD and none for MCDM from the OSR
@@VengerSatanis but you don't call it out in a blog post, because its horseshit and not even a real game, even though it made more in its crowd funding. I'm sorry someone else made a more popular game system, thats life dude
I have to agree that I dislike Matt Colville. Not hate ,because I didn't throw money at his idea of a project. But that could be hate from those who pledged later on once it doesn't deliver, but I'm speculating.
I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong about SD ushering new OSR players into the hobby (that's a nice thought and hope you're right), but I believe the game is aggressively mid and those looking for cool OSR + 5e content would be better served downloading Advanced Crimson Dragon Slayer for free. Also, back my latest kickstarter - Primordial Chaos: Gonzo Like A Fu@king Boss. Send Venger back to Hell with a bang! [Now THAT is a plug, hoss.]
@@SNDKNG Aside from the art, there's really nothing special about it. Mainstream O5R, and most of the "innovations" are either worse than not having anything at all or seem blandly generic. It's OSR beige.
@@SNDKNG Everything. It's a standard B/X clone with advantage/disadvantage, half-assed special abilities, and a gimmicky videogame torch mechanic and videogame style equipment slots.
Well, there's two different points. The first is if you argue that SD will take away money from you because of the limited pie, which is not the case because buzz and popularity of products increases the overall attention that the OSR gets, and brings people to it. The second, however, is the argument that these people who arrive will bring with them a different set of values and interests, both in terms of how they think of games, of who they imagine to be "in charge" of what the hobby does, and in terms of what sort of things they like or dislike. To be concerned that the people SD brings into the OSR might end up wanting a more bowdlerized OSR is quite legitimate. Though there still, at best, it would just mean they would be people who'd add no money to your coffers.
@@Nobleshield I think its the best OSE clone to run as a DM by far, those "video gamey" mechanics are just good ways for the DM to stay on track of stuff. Plus the cursed scrolls are really good.
I'm new to the space but it's clear from everything I've seen from Venger he doesn't take it seriously, because he doesn't act like a professional, he doesn't act like this is a business. Why does a guy who continuously engages in twitter beefs and alienating everyone think he should be more successful than someone who is engaging, grinding away and doing all the right things? It's absurd. It's clear also from the comments he is the type of conservative who rails against things being political but brings it up at every turn, he even brings it up in his lament on Shadowdark's success. Nobody has the time or emotional patience for that conduct. I assume he doesn't have a neurological issue that affects his awareness, so perhaps he should be more aware about how he comes across, because he doesn't pass the sniff test. And, I guess Shadowdark vs Venger is great case study, one is how to be a pillar of the community and build great product and market it, the other is how not to and also self-immolate. Merit vs that without merit. In addition, this is such a small industry that everyone knows each other by real name, why would you come for the trending lady who clearly made all the right steps. The guy was ruined before he started, who is going to collab with a bridge burner - nobody.
Well, I'm pretty political on my social media too; I think the main difference in that sense is that my politics are not something I thrust into my game products.
I'm specifically referring to party politics. But we can't avoid politics. In the end everything is political, politics means matters of society and all art takes place in a society or has social interaction. People only recognise politics when it deviates from their own baseline values. Someone transported to that one dog eating festival just don't suddenly become political and the person eating it not - their values don't align with the content that is in front of them.
Sure. But what I mean is that Venger had the habit of injecting contemporary politics right into his material. Often also very contemporary politics, to the point that after a year or two they seem anachronistic. For example, in one of the Cha'alt books he had the "kingdom of Jilette" which was a brutally oppressive matriarchy, which was meant to be a parody about that very woke Gilette razor ad (if you even remember that now!).
I heard disheartening news. Marc Miller has turned over creative ownership, either via sale or some other medium, to Mongoose for Traveller. I really hope that the IP doesn't go to hell without a person standing guard over the core of the system and setting.
WotC has released at least 4 hardcover D&D books every year since 2018, upped to 5 in 2021-22, down to 4 in 2023 (but 5 if you count the Dragon book), 5 in 2024, 4 (so far*) in 2025, plus the starter set. I don't know where you get that they won't be publishing similar numbers--4 to 5 major products a year--for the foreseeable future. I think that's there tried-and-true business model, for better or worse. One splat, one story arc, one adventure compilation, one setting, and maybe a 5th something else (e.g. box set, slipcase, etc). *I say "so far" because they could still announce another book for 2025. There's an adventure compilation but no story arc campaign, so chances are they're something in the works.
I've done various other videos explaining how the corporate push to go full bore on the vtt, coupled with getting rid of their major book distributor, and firing a huge part of the book writing staff, indicates to me that they don't want to end up having the vtt, which they expect to be much more profitable, having to compete with regular book releases.
A character with 0hp in Lion & Dragon or Baptism of Fire is knocked unconscious. They recover after 1d6x10 minutes, or if revived by a DC10 medicine check.
@@RPGPundit Thanks for the response and answering the question. To be honest I am a little disappointed since I firmly believe that players die when they reach 0 HP. Then again I don't run the critical tables that you have so there is that. So how does a character die then do they need to get to negative HP?
Remember that you can do what you want, as GM. If you want people to die at 0HP, go for it. The rules for injury are on p.84 of L&D. Or p.164 of Baptism of Fire. In short, if you're at -1 or -2hp, you're unconscious unless stabilized by another character, at which point you regain consciousness but can take no actions until healed to 1hp or more. If you aren't stabilized you'll lose another 1hp every 10 minutes. At -3 or -4 you lose 1hp every 1d10 minutes. The Medicine skill can still stabilize you, which would bring you up to -2hp. At -5 you can only be saved by magic or miracles, and will die in 1d10 rounds. If you're at -6 or less, you're dead.
In order for someone to be a influencer. 1) They have to be able to influence people. 2) An be focused on being popular / famous on a social media platform ( fundamentally a narcissist ). These two reasons is why I'm not a influencer. I'm terrible at convincing people to do something. An popularity , fame & love just run away from me like water off a ducks back.
Honestly you just need to play it your way and have fun. Don't like the books? Don't buy em. The mechanics are solid, it's the content of the world or adventures that may get people upset. Most honestly just get upset with the writers on Twitter, just turn it off and enjoy your game and you've healed the hobby for yourself and your game group.
⏰️ 11:44 Sword coast adventurers guide is all setting. It sucked , it only had 197 pages. But it is still all just a campaign book with no adventure in it. She is most likely conservative 😉
I'm still wondering about that. Sorry your comment was deleted, but it wasn't by me. Did you put some word in there that youtube might autodelete? Or a link?
@@RPGPundit Misty Step in the core rules for one. I don't know if they've ported stuff from splatbooks, such as Thunder Step and stuff like that. Misty Step is so low level that any character can get it via a racial shortcut or multiclass dip or something, and it is such a game-changer for me at least.
You’re on point about Venger. If he toned down the smut a bit and, specially, if he just dropped the Satanis he would have done better. Cha’alt is brilliantly produced, the cover alone… he would have done better in the background a bit like a Crawford or Gillespie.
Yeah Cha'alt is great, drop the "satanis" edge lord bs and remember Kelsi isn't WotC, her $20 PDF doesn't affect anyone's quality, look at Robert J Schwalb's "Shadow of the Demonlord", it's awesome as are many products. Kickstarter is woke, which is why many people cut ties years ago, I haven't personally backed anything on it for over 5 years.
Interestingly enough on the RPG site thread about his retiring I made that same point, and a bunch of guys came out saying basically that the reason they never bought avengers stuff was because of the Satanism and smut. These are Conservative Christian gamers, it kind of makes sense.
And yes you can argue that they should know it's all just make believe. But even so if you were in their shoes would you want to buy the product that's full of dungeon rooms where people are having s*x acts and homages to demonic forces, or one that doesn't have those things?
@@RPGPundit I am in their shoes! It’s strange though as I agreed with many of Vengers political views but personally found the Satanis so off putting I couldn’t deal with it, made him literally look like Anton Lavey who was always a big cheeseball and I couldn’t shake the image. And listen, I once was in the occult and had a library that included an original copy of Crowley’s the equinox of the gods but even then I found Lavey goofy. I think the image hurt him even more than the content.
I think their first foray into setting books for 5e was the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, which wasn't well received. It was a fairly poor showing for a setting book, so those wanting a setting book didn't get what they wanted, and those who didn't know what a setting book was didn't know with that book existed. Those types of books were dismissed right after that. If WotC 5e and its supporting material was more geared towards showing DMs how to run campaigns instead of railroad by-the-book adventures I guarantee we'd see more setting books, but they abandoned that path almost immediately. They're probably going to try that path again with 5e 2024, since they didn't eject all exploration rules like I thought they would (although they did slice them up in the PHB a lot) and are at least paying homage to strongholds and other between adventure things. I don't have a lot of hope though, since the designers don't really seem to understand doing much aside from write adventures with white room combat, "omg so random" characters, and no true danger. I've had much more luck with 3rd party setting books from authors who still understand how to provide content for a setting and campaign.
Are you sure that the exploration mechanics aren't just a feature, along with domain stronghold building, that is being kept because it will be particularly appealing to vtt play?
@@RPGPundit I don't have evidence either way, although if I had to make a bet, I would not say that VTT would have had much effect on those rules based on what we've seen so far in the 2024 PHB update. There are still mechanics like mount galloping in there which would be weird to do in a VTT.
See my pinned comment. At the time I did the video I didn't remember just how much it was, so I said a ridiculous number. It didn't affect my point: she could have made $20 Billion, and it still wouldn't change the argument.
It would be sad if we did not have people from across the political spectrum playing these games. There are lots of games where I have played a Nazi, a confederate soldier, and a communist leader. I wouldn't want to do any of that in real life but in a game, it's fine. In 20 or 30 years when the last Holocaust survivor has passed, play a game about World War II that included the Holocaust as a game element would be okay. My experience has been for example, the most War gamers who played a modern combat game are very anti-war. The death toll is appalling. Games can teach us by letting us take the role of bad people and seeing what that leads to. Fiasco, anyone?
I could somewhat understand but I think there is a line people somewhat draw and it kind of changes per person. Like I wouldn't run a Israel vs Palestine game because it's just asking for problems at the table. Depending on my group I would change what I run and how I run it. If the group can handle it we will go into more weird or edgy stuff we may have some more edgy gameplay. If I don't know the group or whatever I will keep it somewhat more tame in how I run it.
@@guywholikesheelies3231yes I kind of alluded to there needs to be some time before you gamify real world events. And I wouldn't want to run a game either that's just going to cause a fight between my players rather than my players characters.
⏰️ 7:08 I agree. Woke people promote the fact they are woke. Moderates , libertarians , & Conservatives , are prone to not promote their political ideology.
Not just that: Woke DEMANDS that you ACT. You can't be woke by faith, it must be by ACTS. "Silence is Violence", if you are not actively with the Woke you are against them. If you do not say the slogans or throw the brick, you are an enemy to them. "Secretly woke" is not something that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah. As I pointed out when responding to the Red Room, her being a lesbian doesn't necessarily mean anything. She might be a "log cabin republican", or even a TERF for all we know. The point is she isn't telling us, she's keeping her politics out of her products, and that is what I think most gamers prefer from designers.
I should've not Tweeted about the potential wokism, now it's what people will remember. But what did get on my nerves on all this was the Shadwodark simping and "not being allowed" to dislike the game.
That is the most annoying phenomenon about SD, I agree. I think it relates on the one hand to Kelsey being a girl obviously, but also to the 5e "culture" where they are horrified at any critical or negative remarks; I remember being very surprised when some 5e people have come across my reviews, and were SHOCKED and appalled that I would point out some of the things I didn't think were very good about a book instead of just gushing with praise for it.
@@RPGPundit That's such a silly thing. Fake praise sounds fake, and being pointed out negative things in a game isn't necessarily bad, it can be used to improve it in the future.
Yes exactly! For starters, beyond just getting some idea what a game is about, what's the point of a reviewer NOT telling you what the flaws may be in the game? How does that benefit you? Even if the reviewer isn't paid, it's still just an infomercial at that point. And as you say, for a designer, if you have a good reviewer and he points out certain things he thinks are flawed about your product, then a good designer will be able to think about those things and potentially change them going forward.
Its author has done nothing but praise Gary Gygax. Who the woke 5E diehards despise. You are making up in your own heads a woke angle to the defense of the game. Because your criticisms of it are entirely disingenuous.
Who brought up Gary Gygax? Or Wokeness? Are you actually even reading what I write, or are you just following some script in your head fed to you by "influencers" who have made up nonsense? Have you even actually watched the video you're commenting on, because in it I reject the idea that Kelsey should be somehow associated with wokeness when she hasn't done a single thing in that regard. Maybe if you weren't so "puerile", you'd listen to the actual facts for yourself instead of listening to grifters who know that invoking my name gets them views and superchats from PDS obsessives.
Good show. It's kind of funny how Venger can make one comment and it causes an uproar in old School gaming. I kind of agree with him. Shadowdark is OSR lite. To an old school gamer who uses old rules it seems like everything they talk about in regard to SD is old hat and it is. Ohhh, you could run out of Torches - uh, that's everything we played from 1974 to about 1985. To the 5e crowd it's a whole new world and super edgy. The art is kind of metal/goth but not grim enough to be truly dark and scary from what I saw. People like it, who gives a snot. I had to block people that just wouldn't let go of arguing and being right. It was a lot like when kids get in a fight in school and a teacher shows up. They try to blame each other and the teacher puts them both in detention for fighting. LOL I put a lot of people in detention for fighting last week. People are arguing about Elf Games once again.
If we should be concerned about any one entity suffocating profits in the hobby space, there's only one company we should all keep an eye on. And its not Arcane Library.
The wider community looks very askance at Shadowdark criticism, and frankly they're right to do so. You give most people trying to cut down on it a chance to explain themselves and it very quickly just sounds like they're being a whiny baby who's jealous of her success. The big, semi-legitimate, critique is her book doesn't do anything any other OSR book does... but that's just in their opinion, and then its fans say it does provide something new, or others at the very least say it provides a refined version of the best of all ideas in one cohesive, easy to play package. And as far as Kelsey Dionne looking woke, how? She has dark hair? She wears t-shirts? Sometimes she's wearing glasses? It's people waaaaay too invested in fighting the culture war, to the point they're lining up for battles nobody else even knows are going on. Stabbing the air because they see the woke all around them.
Putting the legitimate critique aside, comments like this are exactly why some are concerned about the cultural shift. "The wider community looks very askance at criticism." Weird words already implying that this is all about consensus and trying to be one of the cool kids.
Well, there's very little to criticize about the structure of her game itself. I'm sure there's some choices some people might like more or less, but it is actually a very standard 2nd wave OSR game. It would have been absolutely cutting edge in the OSR in 2011 or so. The one critique I have is that people keep talking about those mechanics in SD as being "innovative" when in fact all of them (except the torch rule) have been used by different OSR products for more than a decade. The issues with SD are more about the importing of 5e "influencer culture" where you have promotion by youtube channels of celebrities, who give only entirely positive reviews, because it's kind of astro-turfed, groups of influencers in the 'in crowd' giving cover for each other. I get that criticism. But the idea that the financial success of SD will somehow affect the financial success of other gamers negatively is very small minded. That was never what I was criticizing about SD. As for the woke thing, I guess it's because Kelsey is lesbian? But I mean, that still doesn't say anything about her politics. For all we know she could be a log cabin republican, or a terf or something. Or - and I know this is going to sound totally CRAZY - maybe she thinks that her sexuality has nothing at all to do with her politics? OK OK, I admit that its hard to believe there could be someone in this day and age like that, but if there is someone like that, Wisconsin would probably be the place for them.
I get your point too. It is part of that shift away from focusing on "this guy makes great games" to "this person is a community CELEBRITY and gets to decide what's in or not". The worst problem with SD is its fans.
There is a debate, actually. It's a HOBBY, not a Community. "Community" is a term people use when they want to control you by speaking "for" the idea of a community. A hobby is people making and playing games. We don't need "community leaders" or a forced "community culture".
Shadowdark costs no one in the OSR a sale. Its not OSR but it might lead people to the OSR. Shadowdark at its base is a dungeon crawler but can be expanded. I bought it - its 5e bones with osr chrome and lots of tables and random leveling (where have I seen that? ) The cream of the crop of OSR includes unique settings and not just "house rules". Lion&Dragon, Sword and Caravan, and Baptism of Fire all do that as does Macuahuitl. I like Venger but I don't vibe with most of his content. Also please make some Russian content for DM James and his slav fetish.
Where have you seen that indeed! LOL. Venger does some things really really well, and others he just kind of dials in, though his quality of random tables got better over the years. I obviously haven't read Macuahuitl but based on what's come out in social media it certainly seems to be right in the category of Historically Authentic 3rd wave OSR (though I hear that the author no longer wishes to be considered part of the OSR...oh well). I'm afraid it will likely be a long time before I do anything with the Rus. I'm currently working on a Baptism of Fire sourcebook that will add a lot about the nobility in Poland. And after that, I may end up doing a sourcebook focused on the last Scandinavian Pagans, who settled in Pomerania (for which I may dare to try to create seafaring and raiding rules).
I don't know I would disagree. WotC have been releasing setting books. The issue is that they drop a setting and go on to the next and very rarely explore those settings outside of those books. You get a short 5 page adventure at the end of the book and that's it.
The things that watch has been calling setting books are actually mostly adventure path books. They will have maybe 10 pages of description of the setting, and then do 10 or 12 or 15 entire adventures in the setting. That's not what a setting book is supposed to look like. A setting book should be a deep dive hundreds of pages about the setting, items, monsters, NPCs, random tables, and then maybe one short adventure at the back.
Upon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money. Hope that helps.
Well yes, he was using Shadowdark as an example, however, of the slick marketing that is taking over and sucking up all his would-be customers. It's the pretty standard complaint of indie hobbies when the slick corporate types show up and start doing pre-fab stuff. Part of what he's saying is true, specifically the part of how the presence of these type of influencers could change the OSR sub-hobby specifically, from being focused on cool design to being focused on cool-content-creation in social media and being part of an in-crowd of influencers. Which is what we see in 5e culture. But the suggestion that Shadowdark (or Shadowdark as a stand-in for all the change being caused by the drawing of 'tourists' into the OSR) is what caused him to not make money just doesn't pan out.
Shadowdark is not a bad game. Not my favorite, but not terrible either. I prefer it over WOTC products, but I think I have some other games that are better.
I have not seen or played shadow dark from what i heard its good , i think people are tired of 5e my belief SD is filling the place for wotc not creating a 6ed
Slight nitpick. For 5e they did release an Eberrin setting book. 320 pages with no adventure path. It has a gazetteer and a how to build adventure sections. But it’s all setting/monster stuff.
Thank you for answering in this way, few other people mentioned the eberron book couldn't answer if it was actually a truly real setting book and not just an adventure path book masquerading as one. I guess I forgot that one.
While modern politics have no place in a typical generic fantasy world, there are still political things going on. Absolute Monarchism vs. Parliamentarianism, Aritocratic values vs. Mercantilism, anarchy vs.slavery are just some. Then again, there are monarchists in the current day.
Yes, but those are all political debates IN-GAME. They are not meant to be about a designer force-feeding a comment about Trump or whatever into the mouth of a medieval-fantasy NPC, just because your whole reason for writing rpg products is to promote your political ideology.
True, but I think 5th ed is stupidly overrated, too. I think Castles and Crusades is much better. We're all different, we all like different things. My favourite game right now is Mythras and that's BRP.
I buy things I am interested in, I stopped buying WotC a while back. I have my own homebrew system, I use random tables from many resources, I don't play "D&D", "OSR", "Story games" etc... I play my game at MY table, sell me on the quality of your products, and they might be found at my table, keep whining, and I'll think your products are whiny. And the "woke" idiots that have decent products accidentally prove that capitalism works 😂 I win, because I don't play stupid games, hence 5E books are present, but only for inspiration and only via a HUGE discount.
Totally support your position there. Hope my books have given you some inspiration. If you haven't seen them yet you should check them out they are perfect for people who Homebrew.
@RPGPundit about your opinion on "the mythic underworld," I consider it a subgenre of fantasy rather than "BroSR." Dragons can polymorph in many fiction pieces, hence the impossible room. Teleportation magic also exists. My point is this: people play whatever they want, even if it is the "My Little Pony RPG".
You watched my video on the Mythic Underworld? I'm not saying that the Mythic Underworld is "brosr". I'm saying that the "BroSR" are pretending that contest/funhouse dungeons are the "mythic underworld", which they are not.
@RPGPundit I believe that Alice in Wonderland inspired much of the "funhouse" elements, the bizarre nature of the dying earth series impacts this to a degree as well, Elric of Melnibone's world formed of chaos has also inspired aspects. That being said, "mythic dungeons" aren't "funhouse" dungeons, but given sufficient "chaos" alignment could be influenced in that direction. I personally do not enjoy "funhouse" dungeons for the same reason that I love the original Ravenloft module as it has strongly grounded principles. To me, Ravenloft is a "planar mythic dungeon" due to what I assume are obvious factors. Hollowworld beneath the surface of Mystara is for me the definitive example of a "mythic dungeon" as its existence pushes the scope and power of Immortals. That is to say, there is a huge difference between "funhouse" and "mythic," and most videos are people insulting each other rather than giving a conceptually distinct reason instead. I like Venger's product line, but the reality is kickstarter is crap, I think Patreon would be a better creative outlet as he can use drive thru rpg with it and there are people willing to support creative people in that space.
I haven't read it. Was it published by WotC? Or is it a third-party production? Ravnica is one of the MtG worlds, right? That would be why I gave it no attention.
Your wrong about no Campaign Setting Books for 10 years, Eberron Rising From The Last War, Explorer's Guide to Wilmounte, and Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, were bigger books with plenty of lore, it's only post 2021 that all their setting products except for Radiant Citadel, became terrible, I supect that these two big FR books are a reaction to the backlash all those half arsed setting products and the SCAG received.
Was Eberron a REAL setting book? Or was it 10 or less pages of setting and then the rest is adventure paths? Because Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Radiant Citadel were all like that. As for Wilmounte, I'd never heard of it until now, but I don't think it really counts as it was just fan material for Critical Role.
Honestly, SD is the pinnacle of mediocrity. Not good, not bad, just thoroughly “standard”. Nothing really new, but nothing too divisive, either. But the thing is, I already have half a bookshelf full of “standard”. As for swine on a couch, I liked them for a while, but as time went on I started to get a gut feeling that was only solidified by a particular livestream: they’re the TTRPG equivalent to Tulsi Gabbard: they’ll hitch their wagon to whoever will give them the most influence.
309 comments already? At one of the most moderate and full of caveats and disclaimers videos? Unless the utmost praise has become mandatory and nobody gave us the list with the new dieties, praised be their names...
You know he wasn't blaming Shadowdark specifically. He was using it as a term to describe the trend buying and zeal some games generate. You yourself have commented that it can be hard to compete if you're not the cool kid in class these days. I don't think he even mentioned politics in any of that. You initially had a pretty neutral stance on the whole issue in your previous video. Then I saw you got into some political discussion elsewhere. A lot of the rage came from people who are heavily invested in Shadowdark, especially those making content for it, so I partly get the kneejerk reactions. However, nothing should be a sacred cow that can't bear criticism. God knows the current iteration of what Wizards produces deserves a LOT of criticism. Why are you "forced to defend Shadowdark?" Venger made one offhanded comment. All the grenades were thrown later. Check by your feet for a pin.. 😂 I know the guy who wished painful death on the OSR (B.E.) should probably understand he's technically making OSR products. Hell, Shadowdark is even OSR with a spin on it. It's D&D derivative and is driven by a number of old school concepts. Anyone who doesn't get that needs to be checked for a brain tumor. Shadowdark stands on its own merit (I own it and will say it's cool, but not the Second Coming.) Opinions should stand as well, whether we agree with them or not. The divisiveness these things cause is ridiculous, especially when half the people involved usually agree on many issues. However did we purchase and play games before the glorious internet? Now let's dispense with the drama and focus on other aspects of gaming.. and giving Wizards the Italian Salute.
I agree that he wasn't specifically blaming Shadowdark, but in his comments the suggestion still seem to imply that his profits suffered because of the profits of others, which is a limited-pie fallacy.
@RPGPundit I don't think he implied a direct correlation between their levels of success but it's certainly true that if game X is getting a lot of attention it's certainly bringing a lot of people to that sliver of the pie. There's a lot of makers in the space and online presence and hype do drive a lot of sales, as evidenced by people who've never heard of Shadowdark but will now buy it because it's being mentioned in the course of these discussions. Some of my friends who buy everything they see based off videos had never heard of you or a number of people but were very intrigued when I spoke about certain products. That game definitely benefited from a huge helping hand of support that I don't knock Kelsey for having, but is hard for others to match. And once one TH-camr learns a certain product is trending and getting views, they want to jump on the bandwagon and post a playthrough or review, even if it's not flattering. It's just the nature of the beast. Think back to the days of when we bought based off seeing something played or holding a physical book in our hands. Would some of the small press books and obscure titles get noticed today? It may have been an unfortunate turn of phrase that got people in an uproar, but people need to vent sometimes. If it's about needing to be a social media darling to exist in the hobby, maybe it's a valid beef. I never buy a single product based on videos, and apparently that puts me in a minority. I backed Shadowdark based on its own description. I didn't care about political affiliation or anything else. Usually I'd prefer not to know and not have it baked into the game. But even that knowledge can sink or swim a product, as you know all too well. I feel too many things that hit big are the equivalent of what the cool kids want to wear to school. Some things may be great, but some things don't live up to the hype generated. I think the allure of a game should rest more on its merit and not popularity contests or opining from people who make a living off opining. To that end, maybe there should be more dedicated spaces for publishers and creators to say, "This is my thing. Here's why you might like this thing." Maybe if I win a lottery, I'll get on that. "THINGSPACE™️." I'm not against the marketing strategies of our beloved capitalism, but maybe we need some kind of equal playing field for people to make informed purchases not based on hot takes and monetized rambling.
My problem with Shadow Dark is that its a mid tier rip off of a better game called, Five Torches Deep. There is nothing she added to make it better and in fact 5TD has a creative dungeon generator using a rubix cube. It took way more risks than Shadow Dark but won no awards! We know why!
It's not exactly the same as Five Torches Deep. That's going a bit too far. However 5TD does show that the old school/5e hybrid thing has been going on for a long time before SD.
Well, the "why" might be because SD was much more mainstream focused. That's a good way to sell big, be popular, and win awards (as long as you have good production values and marketing). Ennies are literally a popularity contest, for example.
D&D 5e settings books; Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (Forgotten Realms) (2015), Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica (2018), and Eberron: Rising from the Last War (2019). Nothing in the scale of the content produced for the FR in previous editions though (but all that previous content remained eminently useful) - but there was a lot of setting content incorporated in the campaign/adventure path books.
Yeah. My issue as someone who started with 5E was that they didn't explore a setting after the book came out. Like you got the 5 page adventure and that's it. They gave you settings but they felt hollow
A certain other channel is having a bitch fit over this on a livestream as we speak... right after they admitted to being behind Shadowdark's astroturfing.
@@VonW-op3pd You'll forgive me for not providing a timecode because I don't particularly want to to sit through two hours of couch babble to find it (one of the many reasons I'm not fond of podcasts in general). Basically they say early on that they coordinated Shadowdark's influencer push with Dungeoncraft and other "and only made about $35 dollars out of it."
I have the pdf of Shadowdark and from the beginning I’ve been trying to see what the hype is about. It’s just another meh mediocre game that does stuff I’ve seen in other games. I am not even impressed with the art.
I'm not much either, though there's also nothing especially wrong with it. It's an OK 2nd wave OSR game, which would have been utterly revolutionary if it had come out around 2008, but is just treading old ground in 2024.
Everyone knows it's the awesome art that sold Shadowdark, not the rules or Kelsey. Unfortunately, the simple rules only make it good for a few one-shots. Now compare Shadowdark with Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere RPG, which just raised $14.6 million on Kickstarter. What sold Cosmere? It certainly wasn't the art.
Well, I think it was probably the fandom from his novels? Are the rules in SD really that much simpler than Lion & Dragon, where campaigns can be (and have been) run for hundreds of sessions? Or is it more about the lack of other elements for long-term play? Like that it only focuses on dungeon crawling?
@@RPGPundit It's not as if you can't find a copy of it and look through it instead of relying on pure conjecture. You are investing so much of yourself into hating and ridiculing the game and its success but can't even be bothered to open it up. You don't think that's why many steer clear of your own game products? They've made their own minds up-or rather let others make them up for them-without even giving your books a chance? I am sure I could make good use of Cults of Chaos. Provided the strong presence of cults in my campaign world. But your behavior when it comes to this issue is puerile.
I was only asking for a viewer to elaborate their opinion. But I have heard other people suggest that the game is designed more for "convention play". I couldn't say if that's the case or not.
@@RPGPundit I find people who form strong opinions about things about which they know little to nothing to be insufferable. The activist class do that daily. You would think you would know better.
@@RPGPundit these Shadowdark people are so up in arms, even DD making the whole livestream defending her, it’s astounding. She’s a sacred cow. I think what annoys people also is that she was a 5e fan who saw how cool the OSR was and just shilled it without soul. I can’t stand how everyone is acting like a groupie fanboy simp over this, trying to shame Venger like it’s a jealousy thing. They sound like toxic girls “oh you’re just jealous”.
I'm willing to believe that Kelsey likes the OSR. She obviously had experience with at least reading a lot of OSR products, based on the OSR innovations she included in her game.
It's especially hilarious because its like if I said "you shouldn't kill puppies" and they did videos saying "Pundit is behind the puppy-killing movement"!!
It's like we are forced to praise and admire Kelsey and Shadowdark, fuck that, fuck that shitty game that does nothing new and is just leech. I didn't even care until it became mandatory to praise it.
@@RPGPundit As a big fan of Lucas Korte's work on death metal albums I would have supported the book for the cover alone. Inside we have 50 pages' worth of useful tables for use at the table. The book sits alongside my copy of the original DMG. Your every whinge about it and its author reeks of puerile jealousy.
@@destroso You openly admit in your original post that you did not even care about the game but have now gone and joined the throng of mindless haters just because-to use your own hyperbolic expression-"it became mandatory to praise it." It became no such thing. Go to D&D Beyond and make a thread about it and you will get more hate than love. Because to those in the thrall of Wizards it's just another game that does not say D&D on the cover and its author isn't pouring politics into the hobby like they wish to do. You dislike the game because the self-anointed cardinals to whom you look for guidance don't like the game. You believe whatever fairytales Pundit has woven about the game. Telling you only those ignorant of the OSR would praise the game. When not just reviewers but even game designers in that community have spoken highly of it. I think any grown up irrespective of politics that needs others to tell them how to "think" is pathetic and weak. Play the game you want to play. Why do you care so much if people want to play this one? I don't like official D&D and haven't since 2nd. Edition. But I could not care less if people play it. Maybe spend more time playing games instead of whinging like toddlers about games because they received some accolades. Boo bloody hoo. Tall poppy syndrome is for sooks.
It's not special from the OSR perspective. But the author of Shadowdark was previously writing 5e adventures, so presumably much of her fan-base never knew any game other than 5e. To them, the OSR mechanics she put into the game seem like a brilliant new innovation, even though most of them have been in various OSR games as far back as the last 15 years or so.
@@RPGPundit Many are the reviewers even here on TH-cam touting the game who have been playing D&D and other table-top role-playing games for decades. Many of them routinely promote OSR games. None of these reviewers are saying ShadowDark brings innovations to the hobby. Only that it takes innovations from other games and integrates them into what essentially then feels and looks and plays like B/X 5E. For someone who loathes disingenuous activist types that constantly gaslight people you seem perfectly okay with trying to do that yourself.
Well, when the KS was happening, I saw several reviews that didn't seem to know where the non-5e rule elements came from. Some that praised it for being so "innovative". I presume you were watching more youtube videos from people who were familiar with the OSR, but there were many many reviews of SD as part of the marketing blitz.
@@RPGPundit Where are these reviews from people unfamiliar with the inspirations behind those OSR innovations? Experience has taught me anyone not tethered to 5E is more than familiar with the OSR and those who are hate ShadowDark as much as they do any competitor for Wizards' "precious" game.
th-cam.com/video/bF9uz3GNORU/w-d-xo.html he claims that the mechanics (like the advancement tables), the old-school style with unified mechanics, and random generators somehow make it "stand out against all other RPGs on the market", which is something only someone who has no familiarity with 2nd or 3rd OSR games would say.
I was playing basic or BX/other Rules Lite since the late 70s, but we sure as hell werent cool. And many, including CNN and most churches, thought we were demonic.
Telling yourself lies I see. I started playing D&D in 1983. My shelves are home to not just old AD&D books but games like C&C. I supported the Kickstarter. Because I am not a man-baby who has to tell himself lies to validate his hate and ridicule for something.
Shadowdark has readily available short-range teleports from low levels onwards. Something that olden games do not have. That, to me doesn't make it OSR. And do not make it more interesting to me than my own modifications to the rules. Houseruling for the win!
Well, fair enough. I think its strange to have short-range teleports (you don't just mean the dimension door spell, do you?) but it doesn't make something not OSR. I mean, A game set in the 21st century featuring secret agents using magic in an occult war is OSR. Perhaps you meant it makes it something contrary to the feel of old-school D&D?
For the record: on the video I mentioned SD making "7 million". That was a number I put out there because I couldn't remember the exact. It's $1.36M. but it didn't really matter to the point I was making at the time.
So if a journalist says that 7 million people were killed by Nazis, but it was actually only 5 people, that is ok? If you expect to be treated as an RPG journalist, get your shit together.
@@DeviousDungeonsPainting yeah but in this case it's irrelevant the whole point is just that she did really well. Whatever the exact amount vengers argument he did poorly because she did well is wrong.
@@RPGPundit absolutely, he is blaming her success for his failure. If it was so easy, he could have done the same thing. She beat him to it, She doesn't publicly choose an agenda. He shit in his own saddle and he knows it. And he says "No Regerts". Shadowdark if far from perfect, but it is much closer than CDS.
@@RPGPundit wow Pundit you take stupid comments from shitheads in stride. I need to get better at that. I would have started arguing about how only an imbecile would compare a number of people dying with an amount of money made.
@@DeviousDungeonsPainting He is reporting on the war in Shadow Darkia - I am told Millions were Shilled! 😂
I think healthy competition spurs innovation. Cream rises to the top and we all benefit with more choice.
Cream always rises to the top and the system is rigged cannot both be true. The Ramones were the best punk bad and they never had a number 1 song, meanwhile Green Day sold 20 million copies of Dookie alone. Van Gogh died poor. It’s a bullshit statement you’ve been taught by the ones running things so people stay in line.
Nothing about SD has stopped me from spending 8 straight weeks at the top of the OSR charts on drivethru and making my bestselling fastest-gold-status ever game. That alone shows that SD was obviously not the problem for Venger, otherwise I'd be having a bad year too.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
ShadowDark will hopefully work as a gateway drug to get many people who only know 5e interested in playing something that isn't controlled by WOTC.
I'm DM'ing a group right now in Shadow Dark consisting of people who have played nothing but 5e, and to that effect ShadowDark has been a great transition for them.
We discussed ShadowDark briefly on your stream. I have a copy, super happy with it, but many of the "Simps" around it are selling it as something it is not.
What it is is a very well written tight concise AD&D-esq game with 5e rule sensibilities. None of that is new, what ShadowDark does bring is a level of polish, in the formatting and layout that needs to be standard moving forward.
What it is not is unique mechanically in any meaningful way. ShadowDark dosn't do anything new, it just did it with a level of polish and professionalism that ought to be applauded. The soft touch of the book, artwork, and excellent binding all really help sell it too.
I wish both sides could all be honest about what it is. That includes the people hyping it up refusing to acknowledge what came before it, and also those refuse to recognize any of its merits.
Well said
All good points.
I will say, though, that while SD doesn't _wow_ me with its mechanics, it does make a lot of smart and thoughtful decisions. It sticks less slavishly to the AD&D template than, say, Castles & Crusades, ACKS, or Hyperborea do, often to their detriment, and while it isn't nearly as innovative as a game like Dungeon Crawl Classics, it's also doesn't break as easily. Rather than swinging for the fences, it tries to get on base. I can respect that.
@@comraderaoul Agreed. If I had a group that was all about ShadowDark I could happily play it for the next year or perhaps more. However it is defiantly not my preferred system.
If there is anything the OSR should take away from ShadowDark is just how practical of a book it is. Rules can be found quickly, and they are defined with no fluff. You can have fluff in your book, but when I am using the book to quickly reference something mid game I want to be in and out as quick as I can.
Its gonna work like an oblivion gate, another critter incursion
What you're saying is correct here. It is mechanically fine, not actually being innovative, but borrowing liberally from a variety of osr sources, is also fine. It's part of what you do in the osr. It has very high production values, was very professionally marketed, and a big part of its success is to you to all of the things written above. Some of it is also probably due to the author being a woman. Some of the marketing is in the form of encouraging a type of influencer culture that the osr didn't used to have and could be ruined by. And it isn't offensive to tell fans of Shadow dark that the mechanics they think are brand new and innovative have actually been around for nearly 15 years in the osr and are found in many excellent osr books that were published before hers.
Shadowdark is just solid/uncompromising, and with a very defined mission from beginning to end.
I don't disagree. The only thing is there's plenty of other OSR games of the same kind of generic-fantasy/dungeoncrawling that doe the same. The difference is obviously production values, and marketing.
@@RPGPundit We can't play every game. Why does it make you pout when people choose hers over others? I have been playing table-top role-playing games since '83. Never have I seen such puerile behavior in the hobby than yours outside of the D&D Beyond forums.
@@Frustwell I'm not pouting at people playing it. Maybe you're thinking of Venger, or the Red Room?
What I was worried about was the influx of TH-cam influencer culture into the OSR, where instead of interest in design concepts and designers by default, the OSR turn into a culture where TH-cam celebs who never wrote an RPG (and maybe played only Vampire until a year and a half back) get to declare what people should be playing, the way you see Ginny D (with three whole years of RPG playing experience) telling 5e fans what to do.
@@RPGPundit Dungeon Craft, Unscripted & Unchained, The Gaming Gang, Questing Beast, Tenkar's Tavern, etc, etc, etc. These reviewers and many others-some older than yourself and who have been playing for longer-do not fit the narrative you have just made up to justify your hate and ridicule of the game and its success. These people have been playing and promoting other OSR games for years. And still do.
Interest in design concepts? The game borrowed innovations from a number of existing games and wove them into 5E's core mechanic but streamlined things for a more old school look and feel. It is what it is. Why get so worked up about its success? It is off-putting. I would happily pay money for a copy of your Cults of Chaos book. But I'd sooner support people who don't engage in tall poppy syndrome.
@@RPGPundit Some of the aforementioned TH-camrs HAVE put out their own games. Notice how they are happy for the author of ShadowDark? That is because they truly see what we have as a community. I live in a city overflowing with rock bars. When someone who worked at one opens his or her own their former coworkers don't throw tantrums. They support him or her. Go drink at his or her bar. That is because it is a community. The way you see things in the hobby as so Us versus Them-particularly when someone like KD is on the same page as us when it comes to respecting those who pioneered the hobby and paying homage to the old school-is an insult to the spirit of the game.
I just loathe that WotC is using nostalgia bait of 1980s D&D (such as using D&D cartoon characters and toys) while telling the older players like me to fuck off because they're chasing the Millennial and GenZ players (who don't have the disposable income GenX players do).
Ideally they need to get both.
Make characters, roll dice, have fun. simple.
Let the dice fall where they may!
I think the first campaign setting book I opened was the 3.0 Faerun one. It had a map which I thought (and still do think) was something that is a perfect example of the level of detail required for a campaign book to show you care about the setting and its going to have what a prospective DM is going to need.
A map of trade goods and trade lanes.
The quality of the content produced for the Forgotten Realms setting for 3e was absolutely fantastic. Still use it all the time in my 5e games set there.
The 3e FR book was pretty good.
I own both Shadowdark and your products and I like Venger’s stuff as well. I also appreciate his rebellious stance with the woke BS. Have to say he just came across as envious sour grapes. Not one of his better moments. The Red Room I think missed the mark as well. I know they have suffered as much as anyone under the cancel mob but grouping Dione in with that crowd really was as unjust. I don’t now her political viewpoint because she is not outspoken with it. We can guess left of center but thats not a crime. She expressly makes her corner of the world about bringing people together apolitically and she has excluded no one. That’s good enough. This little spat makes our side of the culture divide look petty and feeds the oppositions distorted view of us. Not helpful as we are not on the higher ground with this. Looks like Dione by just being apolitical and kind is one of the few standing on good ground.
Reminds me of the Republican primary at the end of last year. A lot of folks on the right asked how candidates could be so mean to each other, throwing metaphorical punches and jabs at fellow Republicans. This, to a limited degree, makes a group stronger. If the OSR is to survive, it will because the movers and shakers have been tried by fire.
Yeah, whatever her politics, she's not committing the cardinal sins of wokeism: being preachy, and being a d*ck to people. All players are welcome to play her game or not.
On the vid by the Pickled Dragon today he talks about Kelcey & he knows her, so I'd say you should check it out.
Well, appropriating black slang (woke) for a personal political agenda make anyone, and everyone, look bad. Maybe stop misusing words. 🤔
Yes I agree
I miss the days when politics ever ever came up in games
As do I! Spread the word, share the video.
Then Venger and Rpg Pundit should not bring it up?
In his first broad-side vs Shadowdark Venger brings up his lack of success being political.
Rpg Pundit brings up 'simp culture'. I had no idea the creator was a woman, same for many others - I'm not even sure the Dungeon Craft video I watched on it being a cool game mentions in any overt way she is a woman or I missed it?
Therein lies the problem, because it implies her success is not wholly earned by her when all she did was make the right moves, foster community and worked hard.
These guys should refine their product instead of coming after a new successful product - because guess what? People these days identify with products they love and will take it personally.
@@ItsDeffoScott I would say that it's not in any way Kelsey's fault that she happens to be a woman. But because nerd culture in the hobby, it's kind of inevitable that this will actually be an advantage for any Creator or influencer. I'm not blaming her in any way for this, it's just an obvious phenomenon.
Sorry but I disagree. All the major projects I'm seeing blowing up are men right now. Saying women will get a boost, I don't really see it. There's plenty of women creators now, who is breaking through?
I'm not a ttrpg vet by any standard, but I know and you surely must know in the literary space how many women operate under androgynous or male pen names still because of the authority and sales a male name gives them in the space. So the trend supports the opposite of what is asserted.
Also, I'm as supportive as the most supportive person of minorities out there, but I'm not going to buy a product I will never use - I am sure everyone else is the same.
And finally, people got to stop complaining about it when one woman, or one ethic minority makes a success. That's the point of a meritocracy, sometimes minorities will make it to the big leagues. Shadowdark did not release with a big sticker on the front 'WOMAN MADE', it doesn't have a big front plate photo with a photo and 'welcome to women's dark', it doesn't have an essay at the back 'my life as a woman'. You got to just believe it's a well made product and people like that, sounds obvious right? Just believe the truth.
@@ItsDeffoScott actually, if Kelsey had made a big deal of it herself, then you're right it probably would have been detrimental to her. What sense instead she has in general been as "apolitical" (for lack of a better term) about that as anything else I do think it's an advantage. Which is by no means to say, I repeat, but it's the only reason that her game did well or anything like that.
Why is the OSR now so gay with all the weird beefs?
Shadowdark is a great game. That's all there is to it.
Shadowdark sucks.
@@nad3936 LOL
@@nad3936 "Compelling." It's incredible how you people engage exactly like a left you hate. Like toddlers..
Lots of gatekeeping. But that's the price of gatekeeping, and it's a price I'd gladly pay.
@yaboiportch You'd happily pay that price even though that price is gayness? What is happening is analogous with how posers relatively new to metal act as if they get to police it. It's behavior more becoming entitled adult-children. Not adults.
So I'm an American Expat living in Finland and over here we have this museum of gaming. One of the main attractions is a small D&D display that shows the history of the game from Chainmail all the way through 5e. At the very end and I kid you not, there was an OSR display and the two books featured there is SD and LotFP. The latter I understand since it's both OSR and from Finland lol but I was confused at SD.
I thought SD was like 5e lite?
Anyways, you make alot of fair points in the video and I do agree with most of what you've said. Cheers
That seems especially odd, given how recent SD is, and it has no design influence on the OSR. LotFP on the other hand was a seminal OSR work because it essentially initiated the 2nd Wave OSR movement and shifted the whole OSR away from just clone games.
The problem with 5E campaign setting books, such as Spelljammer, Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, Planescape, and Eberron, was that WotC dropped support of them afterwards. Other than Curse of Strahd (which was essentially a fluffed up Ravenloft), there were no future officially published adventures in those non-Forgotten Realms campaign settings. WotC is too creatively lazy (and have shitty designers) to make original adventures so they rely on 3rd parties on DMs Guild to do so (where they collect part of the 50% royalties and own the rights to those adventures).
they weren't really setting books at all. They were adventure books in drag.
You know, selling a basic-ass osr games as something revolutionary to 5Erfs, is a great idea
it's incredible how defensive people get when you point out this is what is going on lol
@@TheMinskyTerrorist
Watching a guy stream for 2 hours, where he lectures people for irrational immoral aggression towards Kelsey (and there is some of that), while he calls people that wont agree with him ' _coping arrtards nerds that need to be shoved in lockers_ ' chronically is like a vegan lecture stream where the host eats a double patty hamburger during .
*Geezus* no self awareness.
It is, actually. I consider Settlers of Catan to be a pretty basic-ass board game, but if I'd never played it I'd probably still be playing Risk and Monopoly. A bridge that introduces normies to a smaller niche of the hobby is a great thing.
It was always a clever business plan.
Basic was the best selling D&D the day they started printing it. Some of us have played since the 70s. You dont need more than BX, the rest has always been TSR & Twotc just trying to sell my books when their revenue slowed.
I'm entirely fed up with people in the west calling everything they don't like that's expressed by someone else : "hate"
If *YOU* live in a bipolar state of LOVE or HATE for everything, that absurd existence is yours. The rest of us are capable of a broad spectrum of favor and disfavor. And when the topic is disfavor, we're capable of being critical without redlining the emotional needle into "hate". This is not the sign of a healthy society
It seems liberties are taken in accusations, especially by one side
@@calvanoni5443
You'll notice as they become ' disillusioned with the OSR ' (anyones right to do btw) that they are rapidly employing the substance empty emotional blackmail language of the people they spent the last few years despising for that very reason.
I've watched TBE spend the day calling people with nuanced critical takes a term that sounds similar to Renard, after which he channel blocks them.
The same guy that hosted a 2 hour livestream yesterday so that he could tongue-lash people for immoral and irrational attacks against Kelsey. Which there is a degree of.
A couple of the Influencers have been gathering together all the obsessives that hate me, realizing that they will throw views and superchats at them like candy if they talk crap about me. I have to admit, I'm jealous! It's a good strategy, these people are deranged obsessives desperate to hear others affirming their psychoses. They're going to get way more money out of catering to my hundreds of haters than they will to Jeffro's 25 disciples.
But my jealousy passed when I realized that them doing this will only bring more attention to me, and thus ultimately more success and money, so actually they're just forming a facilitating step on the pyramid of RPGPundit success.
Damn, dude. You are rambling. Take it easy.
The absolute irony of thinking your lack of success is caused by someone else making too much money, and then complaining about wokism.
Thank you for bringing back Gord, if only for a brief moment. If I was in your last Sun campaign finding Mendez would be the main quest.
You're very welcome! Bill got quick this time, and he's already put out Sunday's audio.
@@RPGPundit Just finished it, a great example about how you can have amazing story and role play with zero combat in the OSR D&D type rules and also be extremely entertaining. Bravo!
@@RPGPundit imagine how pissed off Sammy would be if finding Mendez became the main quest, it would be glorious. Specially when it turns out Mendez was the Duke of Abstinence’s Luca Brasi
⏰️ 16:07 chris perkins said in a interview that they have decades of stuff to mine.
My prediction is they are just going to repackage old adventures and materials.
📝 The *New starter set* will have a remake of the keep on the borderlands.
A very diverse Keep on the Borderlands, with more ethnic diversity than the Greater Bay Area -- just like the isolated mountain town in the Amazon Wheel of Time series.
@@cowpercoles1194
Yep
Well, that's a good point. I think he meant that in the context of the VTT, but I wouldn't be surprised if their future book or box set or other paper products end up being directly ripped off from old TSR stuff, maybe with slight woke adjustments.
@RPGPundit
That's generally what i think is going to happen.
It's a whole lot easier to make something if one has something to base it off.
An for a group of people that have no imagination.
That's really important.
Good point.
This is all very well Pundit, but I'm going to wait for Meatball to weigh in on this. For the moment I just have to read into her absence and must conclude that the whole Shadowdark thing is not worthy of her presence.
It probably isn't. Meatball is a huge DCC fan, so SD to her just feels like a less exciting version of DCC that's 12 years late.
@@RPGPundit The Truest and Most Savage SD review.
The Venger should be the measure of used as the unit of measurement for shitstorm. A V1 is low intensity, V5 is maximum.
Well, with all due respect to Venger.... now that the doofus incarnate that is Zak is lurking in the shadows for a re-emergence.. we can look forward to more shit storms
Lol, yes!
Lol, yes!
@@VengerSatanis he's alive!
Spread the word, share the video!
2:11 Where did the $7 million figure come from?
I mispoke, I didn't remember how much it funded, and just spoke out a large figure. Turns out it was a bit under 1.4 million.
Dude, Shadowdark got $1,365,923 on KS no 7 million, where as MCDM got $4,600,520 on backerkit without evening having a name or a set in stone mechanic, so why all the hate for SD and none for MCDM from the OSR
Don't be fooled, we hate Matt Colville, too.
there is plenty of hate for MCDM
@@VengerSatanis but you don't call it out in a blog post, because its horseshit and not even a real game, even though it made more in its crowd funding. I'm sorry someone else made a more popular game system, thats life dude
@@Thraxis That's life.
I have to agree that I dislike Matt Colville. Not hate ,because I didn't throw money at his idea of a project. But that could be hate from those who pledged later on once it doesn't deliver, but I'm speculating.
I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong about SD ushering new OSR players into the hobby (that's a nice thought and hope you're right), but I believe the game is aggressively mid and those looking for cool OSR + 5e content would be better served downloading Advanced Crimson Dragon Slayer for free.
Also, back my latest kickstarter - Primordial Chaos: Gonzo Like A Fu@king Boss. Send Venger back to Hell with a bang! [Now THAT is a plug, hoss.]
What's mid abt it
@@SNDKNG Aside from the art, there's really nothing special about it. Mainstream O5R, and most of the "innovations" are either worse than not having anything at all or seem blandly generic. It's OSR beige.
@@SNDKNG Everything. It's a standard B/X clone with advantage/disadvantage, half-assed special abilities, and a gimmicky videogame torch mechanic and videogame style equipment slots.
Well, there's two different points. The first is if you argue that SD will take away money from you because of the limited pie, which is not the case because buzz and popularity of products increases the overall attention that the OSR gets, and brings people to it.
The second, however, is the argument that these people who arrive will bring with them a different set of values and interests, both in terms of how they think of games, of who they imagine to be "in charge" of what the hobby does, and in terms of what sort of things they like or dislike. To be concerned that the people SD brings into the OSR might end up wanting a more bowdlerized OSR is quite legitimate. Though there still, at best, it would just mean they would be people who'd add no money to your coffers.
@@Nobleshield I think its the best OSE clone to run as a DM by far, those "video gamey" mechanics are just good ways for the DM to stay on track of stuff. Plus the cursed scrolls are really good.
I'm new to the space but it's clear from everything I've seen from Venger he doesn't take it seriously, because he doesn't act like a professional, he doesn't act like this is a business. Why does a guy who continuously engages in twitter beefs and alienating everyone think he should be more successful than someone who is engaging, grinding away and doing all the right things? It's absurd.
It's clear also from the comments he is the type of conservative who rails against things being political but brings it up at every turn, he even brings it up in his lament on Shadowdark's success. Nobody has the time or emotional patience for that conduct. I assume he doesn't have a neurological issue that affects his awareness, so perhaps he should be more aware about how he comes across, because he doesn't pass the sniff test.
And, I guess Shadowdark vs Venger is great case study, one is how to be a pillar of the community and build great product and market it, the other is how not to and also self-immolate. Merit vs that without merit.
In addition, this is such a small industry that everyone knows each other by real name, why would you come for the trending lady who clearly made all the right steps. The guy was ruined before he started, who is going to collab with a bridge burner - nobody.
Well, I'm pretty political on my social media too; I think the main difference in that sense is that my politics are not something I thrust into my game products.
I'm specifically referring to party politics.
But we can't avoid politics. In the end everything is political, politics means matters of society and all art takes place in a society or has social interaction.
People only recognise politics when it deviates from their own baseline values.
Someone transported to that one dog eating festival just don't suddenly become political and the person eating it not - their values don't align with the content that is in front of them.
Sure. But what I mean is that Venger had the habit of injecting contemporary politics right into his material. Often also very contemporary politics, to the point that after a year or two they seem anachronistic. For example, in one of the Cha'alt books he had the "kingdom of Jilette" which was a brutally oppressive matriarchy, which was meant to be a parody about that very woke Gilette razor ad (if you even remember that now!).
I heard disheartening news. Marc Miller has turned over creative ownership, either via sale or some other medium, to Mongoose for Traveller. I really hope that the IP doesn't go to hell without a person standing guard over the core of the system and setting.
Mongoose had been pretty good so far. Right now, I'm cautiously optimistic.
You shouldn't be.
WotC has released at least 4 hardcover D&D books every year since 2018, upped to 5 in 2021-22, down to 4 in 2023 (but 5 if you count the Dragon book), 5 in 2024, 4 (so far*) in 2025, plus the starter set. I don't know where you get that they won't be publishing similar numbers--4 to 5 major products a year--for the foreseeable future. I think that's there tried-and-true business model, for better or worse. One splat, one story arc, one adventure compilation, one setting, and maybe a 5th something else (e.g. box set, slipcase, etc).
*I say "so far" because they could still announce another book for 2025. There's an adventure compilation but no story arc campaign, so chances are they're something in the works.
I've done various other videos explaining how the corporate push to go full bore on the vtt, coupled with getting rid of their major book distributor, and firing a huge part of the book writing staff, indicates to me that they don't want to end up having the vtt, which they expect to be much more profitable, having to compete with regular book releases.
3.5 had the last real Guide to the Realms!
Spread the word, share the video!
Hey pundit quick question because I am in an argument with someone in your comments. What happens when a player's HP is reduced to 0 in your games?
A character with 0hp in Lion & Dragon or Baptism of Fire is knocked unconscious. They recover after 1d6x10 minutes, or if revived by a DC10 medicine check.
@@RPGPundit Thanks for the response and answering the question. To be honest I am a little disappointed since I firmly believe that players die when they reach 0 HP. Then again I don't run the critical tables that you have so there is that. So how does a character die then do they need to get to negative HP?
Remember that you can do what you want, as GM. If you want people to die at 0HP, go for it.
The rules for injury are on p.84 of L&D. Or p.164 of Baptism of Fire. In short, if you're at -1 or -2hp, you're unconscious unless stabilized by another character, at which point you regain consciousness but can take no actions until healed to 1hp or more. If you aren't stabilized you'll lose another 1hp every 10 minutes. At -3 or -4 you lose 1hp every 1d10 minutes. The Medicine skill can still stabilize you, which would bring you up to -2hp.
At -5 you can only be saved by magic or miracles, and will die in 1d10 rounds. If you're at -6 or less, you're dead.
Note that some criticals can instantly kill you.
In order for someone to be a influencer.
1) They have to be able to influence people.
2) An be focused on being popular / famous on a social media platform ( fundamentally a narcissist ).
These two reasons is why I'm not a influencer.
I'm terrible at convincing people to do something.
An popularity , fame & love just run away from me like water off a ducks back.
I am, if anything, a counter-influencer.
@@RPGPundit 😄 😆
What is your recovery plan to bring D&D from the depths of controversy and poor reception?
Mine would be sell it to a game company that values the end user of their product.
Honestly you just need to play it your way and have fun. Don't like the books? Don't buy em. The mechanics are solid, it's the content of the world or adventures that may get people upset. Most honestly just get upset with the writers on Twitter, just turn it off and enjoy your game and you've healed the hobby for yourself and your game group.
Hire based on merit. Have managers who understand business, and creatives who are literate about, and love fantasy, who understand game design.
The real problem is not WotC as such, its all of corporate culture. That's why the same stuff is happening with Star Wars, with LotR, with everything.
⏰️ 11:44
Sword coast adventurers guide is all setting.
It sucked , it only had 197 pages.
But it is still all just a campaign book with no adventure in it.
She is most likely conservative 😉
OK, well, a regional setting book.
Well, 5e does have The Sword Coast Adventurers Guide, but it sucks.
Spread the word, share the video!
So yeah, my comment about short range teleports at low level in SD was deleted.. Now I know that the video is sponsored!
I'm still wondering about that. Sorry your comment was deleted, but it wasn't by me. Did you put some word in there that youtube might autodelete? Or a link?
I'd still like to know what you were meaning by short-range teleports
@@RPGPundit Misty Step in the core rules for one. I don't know if they've ported stuff from splatbooks, such as Thunder Step and stuff like that. Misty Step is so low level that any character can get it via a racial shortcut or multiclass dip or something, and it is such a game-changer for me at least.
@@RPGPundit Not a link but there might have been a nasty word in there :)
You’re on point about Venger. If he toned down the smut a bit and, specially, if he just dropped the Satanis he would have done better. Cha’alt is brilliantly produced, the cover alone… he would have done better in the background a bit like a Crawford or Gillespie.
Your right good observation that thought crossed my mind
Yeah Cha'alt is great, drop the "satanis" edge lord bs and remember Kelsi isn't WotC, her $20 PDF doesn't affect anyone's quality, look at Robert J Schwalb's "Shadow of the Demonlord", it's awesome as are many products. Kickstarter is woke, which is why many people cut ties years ago, I haven't personally backed anything on it for over 5 years.
Interestingly enough on the RPG site thread about his retiring I made that same point, and a bunch of guys came out saying basically that the reason they never bought avengers stuff was because of the Satanism and smut. These are Conservative Christian gamers, it kind of makes sense.
And yes you can argue that they should know it's all just make believe. But even so if you were in their shoes would you want to buy the product that's full of dungeon rooms where people are having s*x acts and homages to demonic forces, or one that doesn't have those things?
@@RPGPundit I am in their shoes! It’s strange though as I agreed with many of Vengers political views but personally found the Satanis so off putting I couldn’t deal with it, made him literally look like Anton Lavey who was always a big cheeseball and I couldn’t shake the image. And listen, I once was in the occult and had a library that included an original copy of Crowley’s the equinox of the gods but even then I found Lavey goofy. I think the image hurt him even more than the content.
I think their first foray into setting books for 5e was the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, which wasn't well received. It was a fairly poor showing for a setting book, so those wanting a setting book didn't get what they wanted, and those who didn't know what a setting book was didn't know with that book existed. Those types of books were dismissed right after that. If WotC 5e and its supporting material was more geared towards showing DMs how to run campaigns instead of railroad by-the-book adventures I guarantee we'd see more setting books, but they abandoned that path almost immediately.
They're probably going to try that path again with 5e 2024, since they didn't eject all exploration rules like I thought they would (although they did slice them up in the PHB a lot) and are at least paying homage to strongholds and other between adventure things. I don't have a lot of hope though, since the designers don't really seem to understand doing much aside from write adventures with white room combat, "omg so random" characters, and no true danger.
I've had much more luck with 3rd party setting books from authors who still understand how to provide content for a setting and campaign.
Are you sure that the exploration mechanics aren't just a feature, along with domain stronghold building, that is being kept because it will be particularly appealing to vtt play?
@@RPGPundit I don't have evidence either way, although if I had to make a bet, I would not say that VTT would have had much effect on those rules based on what we've seen so far in the 2024 PHB update. There are still mechanics like mount galloping in there which would be weird to do in a VTT.
Seven Million? I was a part of that kickstarter it was exactly $1,365,923, unless there is something I am missing? Maybe, pre-orders later?
See my pinned comment. At the time I did the video I didn't remember just how much it was, so I said a ridiculous number. It didn't affect my point: she could have made $20 Billion, and it still wouldn't change the argument.
It would be sad if we did not have people from across the political spectrum playing these games. There are lots of games where I have played a Nazi, a confederate soldier, and a communist leader. I wouldn't want to do any of that in real life but in a game, it's fine. In 20 or 30 years when the last Holocaust survivor has passed, play a game about World War II that included the Holocaust as a game element would be okay. My experience has been for example, the most War gamers who played a modern combat game are very anti-war. The death toll is appalling. Games can teach us by letting us take the role of bad people and seeing what that leads to. Fiasco, anyone?
I could somewhat understand but I think there is a line people somewhat draw and it kind of changes per person. Like I wouldn't run a Israel vs Palestine game because it's just asking for problems at the table. Depending on my group I would change what I run and how I run it. If the group can handle it we will go into more weird or edgy stuff we may have some more edgy gameplay. If I don't know the group or whatever I will keep it somewhat more tame in how I run it.
I would love to try Fiasco sometime... maybe at VENGER CON IV.
@@guywholikesheelies3231yes I kind of alluded to there needs to be some time before you gamify real world events. And I wouldn't want to run a game either that's just going to cause a fight between my players rather than my players characters.
Some people vilify gaming without considering all it's benefits, sounds familiar don't it! Rinse Repeat!
The pie is not fixed*
⏰️ 7:08
I agree.
Woke people promote the fact they are woke.
Moderates , libertarians , & Conservatives , are prone to not promote their political ideology.
Why do you appropriate black slang “woke” for your personal political agenda?
Woke means to be aware of danger. 🤷🏻♂️
Not just that: Woke DEMANDS that you ACT. You can't be woke by faith, it must be by ACTS. "Silence is Violence", if you are not actively with the Woke you are against them. If you do not say the slogans or throw the brick, you are an enemy to them. "Secretly woke" is not something that makes a lot of sense.
@@RPGPundit
Yep.
Which makes me think kelsy is to the right of center.
Yeah. As I pointed out when responding to the Red Room, her being a lesbian doesn't necessarily mean anything. She might be a "log cabin republican", or even a TERF for all we know. The point is she isn't telling us, she's keeping her politics out of her products, and that is what I think most gamers prefer from designers.
I should've not Tweeted about the potential wokism, now it's what people will remember. But what did get on my nerves on all this was the Shadwodark simping and "not being allowed" to dislike the game.
That is the most annoying phenomenon about SD, I agree. I think it relates on the one hand to Kelsey being a girl obviously, but also to the 5e "culture" where they are horrified at any critical or negative remarks; I remember being very surprised when some 5e people have come across my reviews, and were SHOCKED and appalled that I would point out some of the things I didn't think were very good about a book instead of just gushing with praise for it.
@@RPGPundit That's such a silly thing. Fake praise sounds fake, and being pointed out negative things in a game isn't necessarily bad, it can be used to improve it in the future.
Yes exactly! For starters, beyond just getting some idea what a game is about, what's the point of a reviewer NOT telling you what the flaws may be in the game? How does that benefit you? Even if the reviewer isn't paid, it's still just an infomercial at that point. And as you say, for a designer, if you have a good reviewer and he points out certain things he thinks are flawed about your product, then a good designer will be able to think about those things and potentially change them going forward.
Its author has done nothing but praise Gary Gygax. Who the woke 5E diehards despise. You are making up in your own heads a woke angle to the defense of the game. Because your criticisms of it are entirely disingenuous.
Who brought up Gary Gygax? Or Wokeness? Are you actually even reading what I write, or are you just following some script in your head fed to you by "influencers" who have made up nonsense? Have you even actually watched the video you're commenting on, because in it I reject the idea that Kelsey should be somehow associated with wokeness when she hasn't done a single thing in that regard.
Maybe if you weren't so "puerile", you'd listen to the actual facts for yourself instead of listening to grifters who know that invoking my name gets them views and superchats from PDS obsessives.
Good show.
It's kind of funny how Venger can make one comment and it causes an uproar in old School gaming.
I kind of agree with him. Shadowdark is OSR lite. To an old school gamer who uses old rules it seems like everything they talk about in regard to SD is old hat and it is. Ohhh, you could run out of Torches - uh, that's everything we played from 1974 to about 1985. To the 5e crowd it's a whole new world and super edgy. The art is kind of metal/goth but not grim enough to be truly dark and scary from what I saw. People like it, who gives a snot.
I had to block people that just wouldn't let go of arguing and being right.
It was a lot like when kids get in a fight in school and a teacher shows up. They try to blame each other and the teacher puts them both in detention for fighting. LOL
I put a lot of people in detention for fighting last week.
People are arguing about Elf Games once again.
Yup!
If we should be concerned about any one entity suffocating profits in the hobby space, there's only one company we should all keep an eye on. And its not Arcane Library.
If you mean WotC, it's becoming more irrelevant than ever now.
The wider community looks very askance at Shadowdark criticism, and frankly they're right to do so. You give most people trying to cut down on it a chance to explain themselves and it very quickly just sounds like they're being a whiny baby who's jealous of her success. The big, semi-legitimate, critique is her book doesn't do anything any other OSR book does... but that's just in their opinion, and then its fans say it does provide something new, or others at the very least say it provides a refined version of the best of all ideas in one cohesive, easy to play package.
And as far as Kelsey Dionne looking woke, how? She has dark hair? She wears t-shirts? Sometimes she's wearing glasses? It's people waaaaay too invested in fighting the culture war, to the point they're lining up for battles nobody else even knows are going on. Stabbing the air because they see the woke all around them.
Putting the legitimate critique aside, comments like this are exactly why some are concerned about the cultural shift. "The wider community looks very askance at criticism." Weird words already implying that this is all about consensus and trying to be one of the cool kids.
@@TheMinskyTerrorist : I don't think there being a wider community is a matter of opinion or debate. Whatever your quarrels with them.
Well, there's very little to criticize about the structure of her game itself. I'm sure there's some choices some people might like more or less, but it is actually a very standard 2nd wave OSR game. It would have been absolutely cutting edge in the OSR in 2011 or so. The one critique I have is that people keep talking about those mechanics in SD as being "innovative" when in fact all of them (except the torch rule) have been used by different OSR products for more than a decade. The issues with SD are more about the importing of 5e "influencer culture" where you have promotion by youtube channels of celebrities, who give only entirely positive reviews, because it's kind of astro-turfed, groups of influencers in the 'in crowd' giving cover for each other. I get that criticism.
But the idea that the financial success of SD will somehow affect the financial success of other gamers negatively is very small minded. That was never what I was criticizing about SD.
As for the woke thing, I guess it's because Kelsey is lesbian? But I mean, that still doesn't say anything about her politics. For all we know she could be a log cabin republican, or a terf or something. Or - and I know this is going to sound totally CRAZY - maybe she thinks that her sexuality has nothing at all to do with her politics? OK OK, I admit that its hard to believe there could be someone in this day and age like that, but if there is someone like that, Wisconsin would probably be the place for them.
I get your point too. It is part of that shift away from focusing on "this guy makes great games" to "this person is a community CELEBRITY and gets to decide what's in or not". The worst problem with SD is its fans.
There is a debate, actually. It's a HOBBY, not a Community. "Community" is a term people use when they want to control you by speaking "for" the idea of a community. A hobby is people making and playing games. We don't need "community leaders" or a forced "community culture".
well, i could honestly believe that prescriptions would be involved with one-d&d
I have a proscription for One D&D.
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Shadowdark costs no one in the OSR a sale. Its not OSR but it might lead people to the OSR. Shadowdark at its base is a dungeon crawler but can be expanded. I bought it - its 5e bones with osr chrome and lots of tables and random leveling (where have I seen that? )
The cream of the crop of OSR includes unique settings and not just "house rules". Lion&Dragon, Sword and Caravan, and Baptism of Fire all do that as does Macuahuitl. I like Venger but I don't vibe with most of his content.
Also please make some Russian content for DM James and his slav fetish.
Where have you seen that indeed! LOL. Venger does some things really really well, and others he just kind of dials in, though his quality of random tables got better over the years. I obviously haven't read Macuahuitl but based on what's come out in social media it certainly seems to be right in the category of Historically Authentic 3rd wave OSR (though I hear that the author no longer wishes to be considered part of the OSR...oh well).
I'm afraid it will likely be a long time before I do anything with the Rus. I'm currently working on a Baptism of Fire sourcebook that will add a lot about the nobility in Poland. And after that, I may end up doing a sourcebook focused on the last Scandinavian Pagans, who settled in Pomerania (for which I may dare to try to create seafaring and raiding rules).
I don't know I would disagree. WotC have been releasing setting books. The issue is that they drop a setting and go on to the next and very rarely explore those settings outside of those books. You get a short 5 page adventure at the end of the book and that's it.
The things that watch has been calling setting books are actually mostly adventure path books. They will have maybe 10 pages of description of the setting, and then do 10 or 12 or 15 entire adventures in the setting.
That's not what a setting book is supposed to look like. A setting book should be a deep dive hundreds of pages about the setting, items, monsters, NPCs, random tables, and then maybe one short adventure at the back.
Upon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.
Hope that helps.
Well yes, he was using Shadowdark as an example, however, of the slick marketing that is taking over and sucking up all his would-be customers. It's the pretty standard complaint of indie hobbies when the slick corporate types show up and start doing pre-fab stuff. Part of what he's saying is true, specifically the part of how the presence of these type of influencers could change the OSR sub-hobby specifically, from being focused on cool design to being focused on cool-content-creation in social media and being part of an in-crowd of influencers. Which is what we see in 5e culture.
But the suggestion that Shadowdark (or Shadowdark as a stand-in for all the change being caused by the drawing of 'tourists' into the OSR) is what caused him to not make money just doesn't pan out.
Shadowdark is not a bad game. Not my favorite, but not terrible either. I prefer it over WOTC products, but I think I have some other games that are better.
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I have not seen or played shadow dark from what i heard its good , i think people are tired of 5e my belief SD is filling the place for wotc not creating a 6ed
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Slight nitpick. For 5e they did release an Eberrin setting book. 320 pages with no adventure path. It has a gazetteer and a how to build adventure sections. But it’s all setting/monster stuff.
Thank you for answering in this way, few other people mentioned the eberron book couldn't answer if it was actually a truly real setting book and not just an adventure path book masquerading as one. I guess I forgot that one.
@@RPGPundit it’s understandable you forgot about it. WOTC forgot about it too, considering they never released any further content for the setting.
While modern politics have no place in a typical generic fantasy world, there are still political things going on. Absolute Monarchism vs. Parliamentarianism, Aritocratic values vs. Mercantilism, anarchy vs.slavery are just some. Then again, there are monarchists in the current day.
Yes, the Lords of Blackrock.
Yes, but those are all political debates IN-GAME. They are not meant to be about a designer force-feeding a comment about Trump or whatever into the mouth of a medieval-fantasy NPC, just because your whole reason for writing rpg products is to promote your political ideology.
Crabs in the bucket.
Witch hunts and purity spiral should be avoided at all cost. Employing the weapons of the enemy does the hobby no good.
There are certain things that are important to fight over. But you'd better be sure you are right.
I'm one of the people who think Shadowdark is hugely overrated and the hype surrounding it is completely unwarranted, bu tit's gotten stupid.
I completely agree.
Its dangerous to say it, because the simps will come running. On the other hand, that still doesn't mean that we should just assume Kelsey is "woke".
True, but I think 5th ed is stupidly overrated, too. I think Castles and Crusades is much better. We're all different, we all like different things. My favourite game right now is Mythras and that's BRP.
I buy things I am interested in, I stopped buying WotC a while back. I have my own homebrew system, I use random tables from many resources, I don't play "D&D", "OSR", "Story games" etc... I play my game at MY table, sell me on the quality of your products, and they might be found at my table, keep whining, and I'll think your products are whiny. And the "woke" idiots that have decent products accidentally prove that capitalism works 😂 I win, because I don't play stupid games, hence 5E books are present, but only for inspiration and only via a HUGE discount.
Totally support your position there. Hope my books have given you some inspiration. If you haven't seen them yet you should check them out they are perfect for people who Homebrew.
@RPGPundit about your opinion on "the mythic underworld," I consider it a subgenre of fantasy rather than "BroSR." Dragons can polymorph in many fiction pieces, hence the impossible room. Teleportation magic also exists. My point is this: people play whatever they want, even if it is the "My Little Pony RPG".
You watched my video on the Mythic Underworld? I'm not saying that the Mythic Underworld is "brosr". I'm saying that the "BroSR" are pretending that contest/funhouse dungeons are the "mythic underworld", which they are not.
@RPGPundit I believe that Alice in Wonderland inspired much of the "funhouse" elements, the bizarre nature of the dying earth series impacts this to a degree as well, Elric of Melnibone's world formed of chaos has also inspired aspects. That being said, "mythic dungeons" aren't "funhouse" dungeons, but given sufficient "chaos" alignment could be influenced in that direction. I personally do not enjoy "funhouse" dungeons for the same reason that I love the original Ravenloft module as it has strongly grounded principles. To me, Ravenloft is a "planar mythic dungeon" due to what I assume are obvious factors. Hollowworld beneath the surface of Mystara is for me the definitive example of a "mythic dungeon" as its existence pushes the scope and power of Immortals. That is to say, there is a huge difference between "funhouse" and "mythic," and most videos are people insulting each other rather than giving a conceptually distinct reason instead. I like Venger's product line, but the reality is kickstarter is crap, I think Patreon would be a better creative outlet as he can use drive thru rpg with it and there are people willing to support creative people in that space.
Do you count Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica as a setting book for D&D 5e? It's certainly not a campaign.
I haven't read it. Was it published by WotC? Or is it a third-party production? Ravnica is one of the MtG worlds, right? That would be why I gave it no attention.
@@RPGPunditIt's first party and it is an MTG setting
Your wrong about no Campaign Setting Books for 10 years, Eberron Rising From The Last War, Explorer's Guide to Wilmounte, and Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, were bigger books with plenty of lore, it's only post 2021 that all their setting products except for Radiant Citadel, became terrible, I supect that these two big FR books are a reaction to the backlash all those half arsed setting products and the SCAG received.
Was Eberron a REAL setting book? Or was it 10 or less pages of setting and then the rest is adventure paths? Because Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Radiant Citadel were all like that.
As for Wilmounte, I'd never heard of it until now, but I don't think it really counts as it was just fan material for Critical Role.
Honestly, SD is the pinnacle of mediocrity. Not good, not bad, just thoroughly “standard”. Nothing really new, but nothing too divisive, either. But the thing is, I already have half a bookshelf full of “standard”.
As for swine on a couch, I liked them for a while, but as time went on I started to get a gut feeling that was only solidified by a particular livestream: they’re the TTRPG equivalent to Tulsi Gabbard: they’ll hitch their wagon to whoever will give them the most influence.
309 comments already? At one of the most moderate and full of caveats and disclaimers videos?
Unless the utmost praise has become mandatory and nobody gave us the list with the new dieties, praised be their names...
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Wasn't interested in SD due to it being over-hyped, but at least that's $7mil not going to WotC/Hasbro and keeping the independant game devs in biz.
It wasn't really $7 million; it was 1.4 or so, I was just exaggerating.
You know he wasn't blaming Shadowdark specifically. He was using it as a term to describe the trend buying and zeal some games generate. You yourself have commented that it can be hard to compete if you're not the cool kid in class these days. I don't think he even mentioned politics in any of that. You initially had a pretty neutral stance on the whole issue in your previous video. Then I saw you got into some political discussion elsewhere.
A lot of the rage came from people who are heavily invested in Shadowdark, especially those making content for it, so I partly get the kneejerk reactions. However, nothing should be a sacred cow that can't bear criticism. God knows the current iteration of what Wizards produces deserves a LOT of criticism.
Why are you "forced to defend Shadowdark?" Venger made one offhanded comment. All the grenades were thrown later. Check by your feet for a pin.. 😂 I know the guy who wished painful death on the OSR (B.E.) should probably understand he's technically making OSR products. Hell, Shadowdark is even OSR with a spin on it. It's D&D derivative and is driven by a number of old school concepts. Anyone who doesn't get that needs to be checked for a brain tumor.
Shadowdark stands on its own merit (I own it and will say it's cool, but not the Second Coming.) Opinions should stand as well, whether we agree with them or not. The divisiveness these things cause is ridiculous, especially when half the people involved usually agree on many issues. However did we purchase and play games before the glorious internet?
Now let's dispense with the drama and focus on other aspects of gaming.. and giving Wizards the Italian Salute.
I agree that he wasn't specifically blaming Shadowdark, but in his comments the suggestion still seem to imply that his profits suffered because of the profits of others, which is a limited-pie fallacy.
@RPGPundit I don't think he implied a direct correlation between their levels of success but it's certainly true that if game X is getting a lot of attention it's certainly bringing a lot of people to that sliver of the pie. There's a lot of makers in the space and online presence and hype do drive a lot of sales, as evidenced by people who've never heard of Shadowdark but will now buy it because it's being mentioned in the course of these discussions. Some of my friends who buy everything they see based off videos had never heard of you or a number of people but were very intrigued when I spoke about certain products. That game definitely benefited from a huge helping hand of support that I don't knock Kelsey for having, but is hard for others to match. And once one TH-camr learns a certain product is trending and getting views, they want to jump on the bandwagon and post a playthrough or review, even if it's not flattering. It's just the nature of the beast.
Think back to the days of when we bought based off seeing something played or holding a physical book in our hands. Would some of the small press books and obscure titles get noticed today?
It may have been an unfortunate turn of phrase that got people in an uproar, but people need to vent sometimes. If it's about needing to be a social media darling to exist in the hobby, maybe it's a valid beef. I never buy a single product based on videos, and apparently that puts me in a minority. I backed Shadowdark based on its own description. I didn't care about political affiliation or anything else. Usually I'd prefer not to know and not have it baked into the game. But even that knowledge can sink or swim a product, as you know all too well.
I feel too many things that hit big are the equivalent of what the cool kids want to wear to school. Some things may be great, but some things don't live up to the hype generated.
I think the allure of a game should rest more on its merit and not popularity contests or opining from people who make a living off opining. To that end, maybe there should be more dedicated spaces for publishers and creators to say, "This is my thing. Here's why you might like this thing." Maybe if I win a lottery, I'll get on that. "THINGSPACE™️."
I'm not against the marketing strategies of our beloved capitalism, but maybe we need some kind of equal playing field for people to make informed purchases not based on hot takes and monetized rambling.
Honestly, if it wasn't for your last video, I wouldn't have even noticed that "Shadow Dark" existed. Shrug.
Its not a big deal.
Do you all think that worc could use a i program to write for them but hide it behind a real person who fits the woke criteria?
I think it's possible, sure.
My problem with Shadow Dark is that its a mid tier rip off of a better game called, Five Torches Deep. There is nothing she added to make it better and in fact 5TD has a creative dungeon generator using a rubix cube. It took way more risks than Shadow Dark but won no awards! We know why!
Exactly right.
It's not exactly the same as Five Torches Deep. That's going a bit too far. However 5TD does show that the old school/5e hybrid thing has been going on for a long time before SD.
Five Torches Deep IS made by woke-a-holics. And there are some pretty important differences like the zoned combat and roll to cast.
Well, the "why" might be because SD was much more mainstream focused. That's a good way to sell big, be popular, and win awards (as long as you have good production values and marketing). Ennies are literally a popularity contest, for example.
D&D 5e settings books; Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (Forgotten Realms) (2015), Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica (2018), and Eberron: Rising from the Last War (2019). Nothing in the scale of the content produced for the FR in previous editions though (but all that previous content remained eminently useful) - but there was a lot of setting content incorporated in the campaign/adventure path books.
Yeah. My issue as someone who started with 5E was that they didn't explore a setting after the book came out. Like you got the 5 page adventure and that's it. They gave you settings but they felt hollow
Eberron wasn't just 10 pages of setting and then 80+ of adventure paths?
A certain other channel is having a bitch fit over this on a livestream as we speak... right after they admitted to being behind Shadowdark's astroturfing.
Yes I saw. They realized they could make more money if they somehow made it as if I was the one attacking Shadow dark instead of venger
Wtf are you talking about? When did they admit that?
@@VonW-op3pd You'll forgive me for not providing a timecode because I don't particularly want to to sit through two hours of couch babble to find it (one of the many reasons I'm not fond of podcasts in general).
Basically they say early on that they coordinated Shadowdark's influencer push with Dungeoncraft and other "and only made about $35 dollars out of it."
I have the pdf of Shadowdark and from the beginning I’ve been trying to see what the hype is about. It’s just another meh mediocre game that does stuff I’ve seen in other games. I am not even impressed with the art.
I'm not much either, though there's also nothing especially wrong with it. It's an OK 2nd wave OSR game, which would have been utterly revolutionary if it had come out around 2008, but is just treading old ground in 2024.
Everyone knows it's the awesome art that sold Shadowdark, not the rules or Kelsey. Unfortunately, the simple rules only make it good for a few one-shots. Now compare Shadowdark with Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere RPG, which just raised $14.6 million on Kickstarter. What sold Cosmere? It certainly wasn't the art.
Well, I think it was probably the fandom from his novels? Are the rules in SD really that much simpler than Lion & Dragon, where campaigns can be (and have been) run for hundreds of sessions? Or is it more about the lack of other elements for long-term play? Like that it only focuses on dungeon crawling?
@@RPGPundit It's not as if you can't find a copy of it and look through it instead of relying on pure conjecture. You are investing so much of yourself into hating and ridiculing the game and its success but can't even be bothered to open it up. You don't think that's why many steer clear of your own game products? They've made their own minds up-or rather let others make them up for them-without even giving your books a chance? I am sure I could make good use of Cults of Chaos. Provided the strong presence of cults in my campaign world. But your behavior when it comes to this issue is puerile.
I was only asking for a viewer to elaborate their opinion. But I have heard other people suggest that the game is designed more for "convention play". I couldn't say if that's the case or not.
@@RPGPundit I find people who form strong opinions about things about which they know little to nothing to be insufferable. The activist class do that daily. You would think you would know better.
It’s the uproar that Venger saying something about Shadowdark caused that is what is annoying about Shadowdark.
That was inevitable. Almost as inevitable as a certain group of swine starting to do live streams claiming I'm actually the one behind it.
@@RPGPundit these Shadowdark people are so up in arms, even DD making the whole livestream defending her, it’s astounding. She’s a sacred cow. I think what annoys people also is that she was a 5e fan who saw how cool the OSR was and just shilled it without soul. I can’t stand how everyone is acting like a groupie fanboy simp over this, trying to shame Venger like it’s a jealousy thing. They sound like toxic girls “oh you’re just jealous”.
@@RPGPundit that’s hilarious, of course they would turn it on you.
I'm willing to believe that Kelsey likes the OSR. She obviously had experience with at least reading a lot of OSR products, based on the OSR innovations she included in her game.
It's especially hilarious because its like if I said "you shouldn't kill puppies" and they did videos saying "Pundit is behind the puppy-killing movement"!!
It's like we are forced to praise and admire Kelsey and Shadowdark, fuck that, fuck that shitty game that does nothing new and is just leech. I didn't even care until it became mandatory to praise it.
Undoubtedly it is 100% true that the worst thing about Shadowdark are the fanboys. Spread the word, share the video!
@@RPGPundit As a big fan of Lucas Korte's work on death metal albums I would have supported the book for the cover alone. Inside we have 50 pages' worth of useful tables for use at the table. The book sits alongside my copy of the original DMG. Your every whinge about it and its author reeks of puerile jealousy.
@@Frustwell “like O M G like you’re sooo jelly like wow”
@@destroso You could at least behave your age. Or is it safe to assume Pundit's mindless disciples are as young as they are naive?
@@destroso You openly admit in your original post that you did not even care about the game but have now gone and joined the throng of mindless haters just because-to use your own hyperbolic expression-"it became mandatory to praise it." It became no such thing. Go to D&D Beyond and make a thread about it and you will get more hate than love. Because to those in the thrall of Wizards it's just another game that does not say D&D on the cover and its author isn't pouring politics into the hobby like they wish to do. You dislike the game because the self-anointed cardinals to whom you look for guidance don't like the game. You believe whatever fairytales Pundit has woven about the game. Telling you only those ignorant of the OSR would praise the game. When not just reviewers but even game designers in that community have spoken highly of it. I think any grown up irrespective of politics that needs others to tell them how to "think" is pathetic and weak. Play the game you want to play. Why do you care so much if people want to play this one? I don't like official D&D and haven't since 2nd. Edition. But I could not care less if people play it. Maybe spend more time playing games instead of whinging like toddlers about games because they received some accolades. Boo bloody hoo. Tall poppy syndrome is for sooks.
Shadowdark isn't special, its a 5TD rip, and lets call a spade a spade.. We know damn well why it was hoisted up.
It's not special from the OSR perspective. But the author of Shadowdark was previously writing 5e adventures, so presumably much of her fan-base never knew any game other than 5e. To them, the OSR mechanics she put into the game seem like a brilliant new innovation, even though most of them have been in various OSR games as far back as the last 15 years or so.
@@RPGPundit Many are the reviewers even here on TH-cam touting the game who have been playing D&D and other table-top role-playing games for decades. Many of them routinely promote OSR games. None of these reviewers are saying ShadowDark brings innovations to the hobby. Only that it takes innovations from other games and integrates them into what essentially then feels and looks and plays like B/X 5E. For someone who loathes disingenuous activist types that constantly gaslight people you seem perfectly okay with trying to do that yourself.
Well, when the KS was happening, I saw several reviews that didn't seem to know where the non-5e rule elements came from. Some that praised it for being so "innovative". I presume you were watching more youtube videos from people who were familiar with the OSR, but there were many many reviews of SD as part of the marketing blitz.
@@RPGPundit Where are these reviews from people unfamiliar with the inspirations behind those OSR innovations? Experience has taught me anyone not tethered to 5E is more than familiar with the OSR and those who are hate ShadowDark as much as they do any competitor for Wizards' "precious" game.
th-cam.com/video/bF9uz3GNORU/w-d-xo.html he claims that the mechanics (like the advancement tables), the old-school style with unified mechanics, and random generators somehow make it "stand out against all other RPGs on the market", which is something only someone who has no familiarity with 2nd or 3rd OSR games would say.
Every time I see Shadowdark mentioned I say Ew gross. It's just such a poser game for people who want to pretend they were always cool and into OSR.
Exactly right.
True indeed!!
I was playing basic or BX/other Rules Lite since the late 70s, but we sure as hell werent cool. And many, including CNN and most churches, thought we were demonic.
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Telling yourself lies I see. I started playing D&D in 1983. My shelves are home to not just old AD&D books but games like C&C. I supported the Kickstarter. Because I am not a man-baby who has to tell himself lies to validate his hate and ridicule for something.
Shadowdark is mid. I don't care about Kelsey's lack of political statements. Long live Venger!
Shadowdark has readily available short-range teleports from low levels onwards. Something that olden games do not have. That, to me doesn't make it OSR. And do not make it more interesting to me than my own modifications to the rules. Houseruling for the win!
Well, fair enough. I think its strange to have short-range teleports (you don't just mean the dimension door spell, do you?) but it doesn't make something not OSR. I mean, A game set in the 21st century featuring secret agents using magic in an occult war is OSR. Perhaps you meant it makes it something contrary to the feel of old-school D&D?
Why do you appropriate black slang “woke” for your personal political agenda?
Woke means to be aware of danger. 🤷🏻♂️
Are you a spam bot? Or just saying dumb things for the hell of it?