Mr.Gruden speaks so clearly, simply yet so profound. You can tell he is a great man of God. I love his Volume on Systematic theology. I bought it on audible and listen for hours. He is very anointed .
I once attended a bible study in a Baptist church where during the study bible came out they not only believed that homosexuality is right and comes from God but also they didn't believe in the full account of Genesis and the creation. Since then I realised how far the Baptist Church is actually from the word of God and this video has confirmed my suspension.
"The Baptist Church" is "far from the word of God". Do you even have a clue what you're saying? Evidently not, because most Baptists do believe homosexuality is extremely wrong and a cause of God's judgment. Most also affirm the Genesis account of Creation. I would not be a member of ANY church that did not agree with both of those things and much more. I was saved in a small Baptist Church years ago and have never even attended a Baptist church that believed wrong on those issues. Bear in mind that there are different Baptist denominations and all don't agree on everything. I'm a young Earth creationist and there are sincere Baptists who believe in the accursed false doctrine of the GAP theory which I despise, but they are still very much against sin including homosexual sin as well as all other sexual sins.
Excellent definition of New Testament prophecy: "telling something that God was spontaneously bring to mind to meet the need of the situation at the moment, but not something that should be recorded in the Bible for all God's people for all history." (1:23-2:55) And it should be noted that there are plenty example of this in the Bible. Saul was "among the prophets." What did he prophesy? What did the prophets he was with prophesy? Silas, in the N.T. was a prophet. What did he prophesy? Agabus was a N.T. prophet. What did he prophesy besides the two words we have mentioned in Acts? Certainly, he was a recognized prophet before, which gave him credibility. What did the daughters of Philip prophesy? What did the people in the first century church prophesy (while they were supposedly still working)? I could multiply examples, but it would be more redundant that I already have. The argument that N.T. prophecy must be considered on the same level as scripture is bogus.
I always thought that verse in Corinthians, when that ehich is perfect has come... was referring to the completion of Gods word? It doesnt say "when He, who is perfect has come" it says "when that". Please correct me or explain where im missing it, please
1. NT writers repeatedly say their knowledge is not perfect yet. NT is all we need, but it is not the full truth there is. 2. 1K 13,8 says prophecy will be done away, but after that in 1K 14,1 Paul says again we should desire earnestly spiritual gifts that you may prophesy... 3. How do you change "desire earnestly" into "forget about"?
I believe that the “perfect” is talking about the eternal state where we see Christ “face-to-face” rather than a completed canon of scripture. Why? The scripture says, “All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.” We do have scripture, and it thoroughly equips the believer for every good work. They are sufficient for everything I need to live for Christ in this world, but it is impossible for anyone to say that they “now know everything completely”. That is an impossible statement to make until we are with Christ in eternity and see him face to face rather than seeing things “imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror”.
@Scribeintheinkhow is it blasphemous. She simply quoted scripture. You can't call her a blasphemer for quoting scripture lol. Ps how do you know whether she was thinking of "quality" or "quantity" because she didn't elaborate on it
You are right. NO corrections are needed. Anyone who claims to be giving new truth prophetically today should not be trusted and should not be listened to at all. NOBODY on Earth is giving new truths from God that are outside of His revealed truth in the Bible. Trust no one who claims otherwise.
Right so if someone stands up saying this and this as a prophesy you say if that goes against the Bible is not from God but if is in the Bible then is from God? Then why God will need to speak through a person when is already in the Bible? and if is not in the Bible therefore goes against the Word of God, why we should listen to that person?
1 Corinthians 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:4 - “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.” Jesus Christ was and is The Word, and was there from the beginning, especially when Paul was in ministry. And because Paul even said himself that He spoke in tongues more than any, and encouraged people to covet all the gifts. Christ had already ressurected at this point
As a fellow brethren in Christ, I disagree with Grudem on several points. But this is the liberty in interpretation and debate. If God was not ALIVE, I would agree with Grudem. And after meeting Jesus face to face personally, such grace granted to such a sinner, HE STILL SPEAKS. Grudem may not have had such a union or expression of a greater union presented in his soul, yet the early church as written in Acts, could distinguish between the Voice of Christ, the Holy Spirit, The Father, and angels...including demons. Now the Spirit is the same? Yes. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever more? Yes. But has one believes, so be it unto them as Jesus rightly stated. Yes, our foundation is the scriptures and let us be mindful and respectful in how we build upon the foundation of Truth Jesus revealed (s). Christ being the Chief Cornerstone of His Temple, our Head. Jesus used such statements as, "Verily verily I say unto you" He is speaking RIGHTEOUSNESS and would comparatively say something of old, then His Authority concerning it. He set the vision of those scriptures, rightly. Or moved those scriptures interpretation of the Second Temple Jews to God's Mind concerning it...The Father in Him or Truth itself...as He is The Truth Embodied: Emmanuel. So today, rhema or hearing God's Voice or the Holy Spirit within clearly is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Yet many ill-motivated or less disciplined will abuse such grace given to His Bride. Does each of us have a conscience voice? Yes and we hear our thoughts? So too the Spirit of The Lord in Us hears His Voice. This is a precious gift in good grace given unto mortal man whose treasure is in Him. See 2 Corin 2 and study it contextually and refer to Paul's other letters, then the Greek translation of "Rom 8:26" Its not one scripture, but the Light and seeing the WHOLE PUZZEL from the pieces written.
I was raised in a classical Pentecostal church. These supposed miraculous gifts were displayed Sunday after Sunday. Those who had the gift of healing ministered to the sick and nothing happened that equaled the instantaneous healings recorded in the New Testament. Those who were terminally ill never got well but died; people’s lives were destroyed listening to prophets and prophetesses; those who spoke in tongues thought they were spiritually superior than others. They also were interruptive in the public worship; no one raised a dead 💀 person as in the New Testament even though some attempted miserably and turned the church into amusement for the unredeemed. I never saw these miraculous gifts produce what I read in the New Testament. It is for these reasons I disagree with Professor Grudem although I say amen 🙏 to many other issues he has addressed. I have also used his systematic theology and will continue, but I don’t believe these miraculous gifts are normative at the present time.
Thank you for sharing your own personal experience and perspective. It is a blessing to have one's eyes opened isn't it? It's such freedom! It's heartbreaking to watch our friends and families falling headlong into it....we love them, they are our brothers and sisters in the Lord, but I do believe they hunger for the miraculous more than the already revealed Word of God. They hunger for the supernatural and yes, they go from week to week hungering for more and more! It can and does become the focus, almost like an addiction. I too attended a Pentecostal church for many years and agree with your conclusions.
I think this comment points out one of the main underlying subconscious reasons why people believe in cessationism. It’s not necessarily because it can be found in Scripture, and in fact there are scriptures emphasizing the opposite, but it is because of experience. They are forming doctrine based on experience and reaction instead of Scripture, and then scripture is used to try to prove the doctrine. I appreciate that the OP can see that this is what is forming their beliefs, but everyone should be urged to be careful that their doctrine is formed by Scripture and not experience or preferences.
There is a simple reason for this. People need to have the gifts first before exercising them. Not many do. In other words the temple in the old testament was also written for us in the new testament. There is an outer gate, holy place, and holy of holies. We ought to enter the Holy of holies, receive the gifts and power of God and then walk in it. There's a level of sanctification that needs to happen for people to enter here. Otherwise everything is just a noisy gong. While you have not experienced these gifts properly, the church that I went to stewarded it well for the most part. I've experienced miracles and have seen God work in mighty ways. But the churchs focus at the end the day was devotion to God and the salvation of souls, not these gifts. When it did happen though, people treasured it and praised God for them.
1 Corinthians 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:4 - “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.” Jesus Christ was and is The Word, and was there from the beginning, especially when Paul was in ministry. And because Paul even said himself that He spoke in tongues more than any, and encouraged people to covet all the gifts. Christ had already ressurected at this point
yeah, Charismatics are just plain wrong the gifts in Acts are not shown today the healings we have are from God, not because a specific person we have the full prophecy of Scripture, the complete as opposed to the partial spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13 i do not agree with the "new testaments prophets are not the same as old testament prophets" why is everything better than in the new covenant except prophets?
Providence and leading of the holy spirit isn't prophecy, is it ? It didn't seem and feel right would be very very subjective and most continualiats tolerate very weird actions in the name of testing. You'd like to see is nice, but why don't you take a bold stand in naming many false prophecies and teachers.
We only have a snap shot here of a presentation that is in volumes and this clip is not about naming others but sharing what truth the scriptures, New Testament and history show.
Grudem is right that Scripture never repeals the gifts. But look at his example on how to handle actual prophecy - “it didn’t FEEL right to ME.” What Biblical guidance and principles does that provide ? NONE. How about at LEAST some wisdom from Proverbs or Jesus on taking on large obligations, such as the land purchase in question ? So what REALLY happens is the most spiritually confident men in a congregation, like Grudem, who tend to take their own instincts as being in line with the Holy Spirit, decide the matter based on their feelings. No one consults the more humble believers, who assume that God’s voice is NOT their voice. Which is a far more Biblical assumption to make ! From a famous theologian, this is LAUGHABLE. Imagine a CEO deciding to put his company into deep debt, because it FEELS right, with NO discussion of sound business principles, and how they apply to the decision at hand. BTW, Grudem has a history of giving highly legalistic advice to Christians based on nothing but his “spiritual instincts” - that’s HIS phrase. When are Christians going to DEMAND that churches operate on at least as principled and transparent a process as a secular business? Or is everything just about the “great man of God” and his particular PERSONALITY ?
Though I own Wayne Grudem’s ‘systematic theology’ and appreciate his understanding in many areas, his view of continuationism is not biblically accurate, in my understanding and study of the matter. There are many verses that point to cessationism as the logical conclusion to the close of the cannon of scripture. I would highly recommend to those who are interested in the argument for cessationism to read either of these books: Strange Fire by John MacArthur; God doesn’t Whisper by Jim Osman; and also to check out Justin Peters Ministries on TH-cam. As a former charismatic and false convert, I can attest to the so called “gifts” being a manifestation of our own making or in some instances even demonic, and not of the Lord. I am thankful to be set free to read and hear God’s word audibly when I read his word aloud and do not imagine voices and nudgings and dreams and visions to be anything more than distractions.
I used to be a cessationist. You can't defend cessationism exegetically. Their is not one single verse that says the miraculous gifts ended. The one verse you guys try to defend in I Corinthians 13, has nothing to do with the miraculous gifts ending at the close of the canon. The gifts will end when Jesus Christ comes back.
@@NorCalGospelPreacher amen. And why? Jesus Christ was and is The Word, and was there from the beginning, especially when Paul was in ministry. And because Paul even said himself that He spoke in tongues more than any, and encouraged people to covet all the gifts. Christ had already ressurected at this point
How many books have you written on the issue then? It's not the only way to show you know anything, but it would be helpful to see whether you think you know more than this scholar...
Agreed, but it must be recognized that the "sign" gifts were to those who "require a sign." i.e. the Jews. There were gifts given to the Apostles and no one else. The sign gifts were only distributed during the apostolic age. They have ceased with the passing of the apostles. The covers of of Scripture are inspired as what lies within. John curses those who add to the revelation found within the Scriptures. Just live your godly life and the gifts will be administered through you as God designs. IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on specifically knowing your personal gift which has the danger of thinking the others are excluded or unimportant to your exercise of them.
There is a profound difference between God's Holy Spirit giving clear leading about something or God giving wisdom to handle a complicated matter and having God actually speak to someone and tell them what He wants them or the church to do. I trust no one who says God is speaking to them or through them. There does not exist anywhere a person whom God is speaking through prophetically. God as already given us His complete revelation of His truth through the Bible. There are MANY Christians who believe they hear God talking to them in their minds. This is dangerous and unscriptural and should be rejected. God isn't speaking new revelation through ANYONE.
No that which is perfect has come already, and that is faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith in the scriptures, not signs and wonders. Tongues and the miraculous gifts ceased, as Paul stated they would.
The cannon of scripture may be closed but that doesn't mean there are no signs and gifts. The Bible never said specifically that the miraculous gifts would cease to exist so I don't see any scriptural evidence to what you are saying. If anything Paul's teachings make it seem like those gifts should be a more common thing. He gave so much instruction to the churches and how to use them.
@@EchoShots the original purpose of signs and miracles were to confirm that Jesus and the apostles and their preaching were of God. To authenticate new revelation from God. There is no new revelation, the scripture is complete. We now discern if a preacher is telling the truth by comparing what he says with what the completed scriptures say.
@@EchoShots in the Bible we don't read specifically about God's Trinity but we reach the conclusion through the reading and study of verses in their context, in The Bible Jesus never said specifically " I Am God worship me" but again context and full knowledge reveal us the truth. So if you think the Bible is a kind of Dictionary or manual instruction where you have specific commands and if it doesn't say "you must, you mustn't" doesn't count well you never understood the Bible.
Paul's perspective on N.T. Wright. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
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Mr.Gruden speaks so clearly, simply yet so profound.
You can tell he is a great man of God.
I love his Volume on Systematic theology. I bought it on audible and listen for hours.
He is very anointed .
Did he write two of them which one is right for the layperson
@@frednobles2485 either he updated his old edition The new edition is in 2 volumes.
He writes in a very reader friendly manner.
Great to hear the truth❤
I’ve just begun experiencing my gifts and have been very legalistic for the better part of my faith. This was very helpful thank you!!!!
I have experienced miracles
So many but I’m a regular person
God still does miracles today glad to see a theologian attest to this
Good stuff! This is what mainline Pentecostals have always done.
Very clear and direct. Thank you for sharing. I love how you give us simple "keys" to explain Scripture
Amen! Thank you for the balance!
God bless ❤ Don’t worry about anything, but pray and ask God for everything you need, always giving thanks for what you have.
Philippians 4:6 ERV
the new hardcover looks very nice!
I once attended a bible study in a Baptist church where during the study bible came out they not only believed that homosexuality is right and comes from God but also they didn't believe in the full account of Genesis and the creation. Since then I realised how far the Baptist Church is actually from the word of God and this video has confirmed my suspension.
"The Baptist Church" is "far from the word of God". Do you even have a clue what you're saying? Evidently not, because most Baptists do believe homosexuality is extremely wrong and a cause of God's judgment. Most also affirm the Genesis account of Creation. I would not be a member of ANY church that did not agree with both of those things and much more. I was saved in a small Baptist Church years ago and have never even attended a Baptist church that believed wrong on those issues. Bear in mind that there are different Baptist denominations and all don't agree on everything. I'm a young Earth creationist and there are sincere Baptists who believe in the accursed false doctrine of the GAP theory which I despise, but they are still very much against sin including homosexual sin as well as all other sexual sins.
Yes and amen.
Excellent definition of New Testament prophecy: "telling something that God was spontaneously bring to mind to meet the need of the situation at the moment, but not something that should be recorded in the Bible for all God's people for all history." (1:23-2:55)
And it should be noted that there are plenty example of this in the Bible. Saul was "among the prophets." What did he prophesy? What did the prophets he was with prophesy? Silas, in the N.T. was a prophet. What did he prophesy? Agabus was a N.T. prophet. What did he prophesy besides the two words we have mentioned in Acts? Certainly, he was a recognized prophet before, which gave him credibility. What did the daughters of Philip prophesy? What did the people in the first century church prophesy (while they were supposedly still working)? I could multiply examples, but it would be more redundant that I already have. The argument that N.T. prophecy must be considered on the same level as scripture is bogus.
I always thought that verse in Corinthians, when that ehich is perfect has come... was referring to the completion of Gods word? It doesnt say "when He, who is perfect has come" it says "when that". Please correct me or explain where im missing it, please
1. NT writers repeatedly say their knowledge is not perfect yet. NT is all we need, but it is not the full truth there is.
2. 1K 13,8 says prophecy will be done away, but after that in 1K 14,1 Paul says again we should desire earnestly spiritual gifts that you may prophesy...
3. How do you change "desire earnestly" into "forget about"?
That which is perfect is when Jesus returns. He said we would do greater works than He did. Also, In the last days He would pour out His spirit
I believe that the “perfect” is talking about the eternal state where we see Christ “face-to-face” rather than a completed canon of scripture. Why? The scripture says, “All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.” We do have scripture, and it thoroughly equips the believer for every good work. They are sufficient for everything I need to live for Christ in this world, but it is impossible for anyone to say that they “now know everything completely”. That is an impossible statement to make until we are with Christ in eternity and see him face to face rather than seeing things “imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror”.
@Scribeintheinkhow is it blasphemous. She simply quoted scripture. You can't call her a blasphemer for quoting scripture lol. Ps how do you know whether she was thinking of "quality" or "quantity" because she didn't elaborate on it
You are right. NO corrections are needed. Anyone who claims to be giving new truth prophetically today should not be trusted and should not be listened to at all. NOBODY on Earth is giving new truths from God that are outside of His revealed truth in the Bible. Trust no one who claims otherwise.
Right so if someone stands up saying this and this as a prophesy you say if that goes against the Bible is not from God but if is in the Bible then is from God? Then why God will need to speak through a person when is already in the Bible? and if is not in the Bible therefore goes against the Word of God, why we should listen to that person?
1 Corinthians 14:2 -
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:4 -
“He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.”
Jesus Christ was and is The Word, and was there from the beginning, especially when Paul was in ministry. And because Paul even said himself that He spoke in tongues more than any, and encouraged people to covet all the gifts. Christ had already ressurected at this point
As a fellow brethren in Christ, I disagree with Grudem on several points. But this is the liberty in interpretation and debate. If God was not ALIVE, I would agree with Grudem. And after meeting Jesus face to face personally, such grace granted to such a sinner, HE STILL SPEAKS. Grudem may not have had such a union or expression of a greater union presented in his soul, yet the early church as written in Acts, could distinguish between the Voice of Christ, the Holy Spirit, The Father, and angels...including demons. Now the Spirit is the same? Yes. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever more? Yes. But has one believes, so be it unto them as Jesus rightly stated. Yes, our foundation is the scriptures and let us be mindful and respectful in how we build upon the foundation of Truth Jesus revealed (s). Christ being the Chief Cornerstone of His Temple, our Head. Jesus used such statements as, "Verily verily I say unto you" He is speaking RIGHTEOUSNESS and would comparatively say something of old, then His Authority concerning it. He set the vision of those scriptures, rightly. Or moved those scriptures interpretation of the Second Temple Jews to God's Mind concerning it...The Father in Him or Truth itself...as He is The Truth Embodied: Emmanuel.
So today, rhema or hearing God's Voice or the Holy Spirit within clearly is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Yet many ill-motivated or less disciplined will abuse such grace given to His Bride. Does each of us have a conscience voice? Yes and we hear our thoughts? So too the Spirit of The Lord in Us hears His Voice. This is a precious gift in good grace given unto mortal man whose treasure is in Him. See 2 Corin 2 and study it contextually and refer to Paul's other letters, then the Greek translation of "Rom 8:26" Its not one scripture, but the Light and seeing the WHOLE PUZZEL from the pieces written.
I was raised in a classical Pentecostal church. These supposed miraculous gifts were displayed Sunday after Sunday. Those who had the gift of healing ministered to the sick and nothing happened that equaled the instantaneous healings recorded in the New Testament. Those who were terminally ill never got well but died; people’s lives were destroyed listening to prophets and prophetesses; those who spoke in tongues thought they were spiritually superior than others. They also were interruptive in the public worship; no one raised a dead 💀 person as in the New Testament even though some attempted miserably and turned the church into amusement for the unredeemed. I never saw these miraculous gifts produce what I read in the New Testament. It is for these reasons I disagree with Professor Grudem although I say amen 🙏 to many other issues he has addressed. I have also used his systematic theology and will continue, but I don’t believe these miraculous gifts are normative at the present time.
Thank you for sharing your own personal experience and perspective.
It is a blessing to have one's eyes opened isn't it? It's such freedom!
It's heartbreaking to watch our friends and families falling headlong into it....we love them, they are our brothers and sisters in the Lord, but I do believe they hunger for the miraculous more than the already revealed Word of God. They hunger for the supernatural and yes, they go from week to week hungering for more and more! It can and does become the focus, almost like an addiction.
I too attended a Pentecostal church for many years and agree with your conclusions.
I think this comment points out one of the main underlying subconscious reasons why people believe in cessationism. It’s not necessarily because it can be found in Scripture, and in fact there are scriptures emphasizing the opposite, but it is because of experience. They are forming doctrine based on experience and reaction instead of Scripture, and then scripture is used to try to prove the doctrine. I appreciate that the OP can see that this is what is forming their beliefs, but everyone should be urged to be careful that their doctrine is formed by Scripture and not experience or preferences.
There is a simple reason for this. People need to have the gifts first before exercising them. Not many do.
In other words the temple in the old testament was also written for us in the new testament.
There is an outer gate, holy place, and holy of holies. We ought to enter the Holy of holies, receive the gifts and power of God and then walk in it. There's a level of sanctification that needs to happen for people to enter here. Otherwise everything is just a noisy gong.
While you have not experienced these gifts properly, the church that I went to stewarded it well for the most part. I've experienced miracles and have seen God work in mighty ways.
But the churchs focus at the end the day was devotion to God and the salvation of souls, not these gifts. When it did happen though, people treasured it and praised God for them.
1 Corinthians 14:2 -
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:4 -
“He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.”
Jesus Christ was and is The Word, and was there from the beginning, especially when Paul was in ministry. And because Paul even said himself that He spoke in tongues more than any, and encouraged people to covet all the gifts. Christ had already ressurected at this point
yeah, Charismatics are just plain wrong
the gifts in Acts are not shown today
the healings we have are from God, not because a specific person
we have the full prophecy of Scripture, the complete as opposed to the partial spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13
i do not agree with the "new testaments prophets are not the same as old testament prophets" why is everything better than in the new covenant except prophets?
Totally !!!!
Providence and leading of the holy spirit isn't prophecy, is it ?
It didn't seem and feel right would be very very subjective and most continualiats tolerate very weird actions in the name of testing.
You'd like to see is nice, but why don't you take a bold stand in naming many false prophecies and teachers.
We only have a snap shot here of a presentation that is in volumes and this clip is not about naming others but sharing what truth the scriptures, New Testament and history show.
Grudem is right that Scripture never repeals the gifts. But look at his example on how to handle actual prophecy - “it didn’t FEEL right to ME.”
What Biblical guidance and principles does that provide ? NONE. How about at LEAST some wisdom from Proverbs or Jesus on taking on large obligations, such as the land purchase in question ?
So what REALLY happens is the most spiritually confident men in a congregation, like Grudem, who tend to take their own instincts as being in line with the Holy Spirit, decide the matter based on their feelings.
No one consults the more humble believers, who assume that God’s voice is NOT their voice. Which is a far more Biblical assumption to make !
From a famous theologian, this is LAUGHABLE. Imagine a CEO deciding to put his company into deep debt, because it FEELS right, with NO discussion of sound business principles, and how they apply to the decision at hand.
BTW, Grudem has a history of giving highly legalistic advice to Christians based on nothing but his “spiritual instincts” - that’s HIS phrase.
When are Christians going to DEMAND that churches operate on at least as principled and transparent a process as a secular business?
Or is everything just about the “great man of God” and his particular PERSONALITY ?
yeah, Grudem is enabling so many bad practices and false prophets
Though I own Wayne Grudem’s ‘systematic theology’ and appreciate his understanding in many areas, his view of continuationism is not biblically accurate, in my understanding and study of the matter. There are many verses that point to cessationism as the logical conclusion to the close of the cannon of scripture. I would highly recommend to those who are interested in the argument for cessationism to read either of these books: Strange Fire by John MacArthur; God doesn’t Whisper by Jim Osman; and also to check out Justin Peters Ministries on TH-cam. As a former charismatic and false convert, I can attest to the so called “gifts” being a manifestation of our own making or in some instances even demonic, and not of the Lord. I am thankful to be set free to read and hear God’s word audibly when I read his word aloud and do not imagine voices and nudgings and dreams and visions to be anything more than distractions.
Hello brother,
Can you list and explain these verses you speak of?
Great response!
I used to be a cessationist. You can't defend cessationism exegetically. Their is not one single verse that says the miraculous gifts ended. The one verse you guys try to defend in I Corinthians 13, has nothing to do with the miraculous gifts ending at the close of the canon. The gifts will end when Jesus Christ comes back.
@@NorCalGospelPreacher amen. And why? Jesus Christ was and is The Word, and was there from the beginning, especially when Paul was in ministry. And because Paul even said himself that He spoke in tongues more than any, and encouraged people to covet all the gifts. Christ had already ressurected at this point
How many books have you written on the issue then? It's not the only way to show you know anything, but it would be helpful to see whether you think you know more than this scholar...
"I didn't feel right" and "asked my wife and that confirmed my suspension" wow these people is all about feelings and how they feel about. Ludicrous.
Agreed, but it must be recognized that the "sign" gifts were to those who "require a sign." i.e. the Jews. There were gifts given to the Apostles and no one else. The sign gifts were only distributed during the apostolic age. They have ceased with the passing of the apostles. The covers of of Scripture are inspired as what lies within. John curses those who add to the revelation found within the Scriptures. Just live your godly life and the gifts will be administered through you as God designs. IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on specifically knowing your personal gift which has the danger of thinking the others are excluded or unimportant to your exercise of them.
There is a profound difference between God's Holy Spirit giving clear leading about something or God giving wisdom to handle a complicated matter and having God actually speak to someone and tell them what He wants them or the church to do. I trust no one who says God is speaking to them or through them. There does not exist anywhere a person whom God is speaking through prophetically. God as already given us His complete revelation of His truth through the Bible. There are MANY Christians who believe they hear God talking to them in their minds. This is dangerous and unscriptural and should be rejected. God isn't speaking new revelation through ANYONE.
No that which is perfect has come already, and that is faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith in the scriptures, not signs and wonders. Tongues and the miraculous gifts ceased, as Paul stated they would.
Wrong again Wayne! There are no Apostles and no apostolic signs today, the cannon of scripture is closed.
The cannon of scripture may be closed but that doesn't mean there are no signs and gifts. The Bible never said specifically that the miraculous gifts would cease to exist so I don't see any scriptural evidence to what you are saying. If anything Paul's teachings make it seem like those gifts should be a more common thing. He gave so much instruction to the churches and how to use them.
@@EchoShots the original purpose of signs and miracles were to confirm that Jesus and the apostles and their preaching were of God. To authenticate new revelation from God. There is no new revelation, the scripture is complete. We now discern if a preacher is telling the truth by comparing what he says with what the completed scriptures say.
@@kentjmcbay1 so you are saying that God can't speak to us directly other than HIS word?? Sorry, but you are dead wrong!!
@@Lisa-hm2mp based on what?
@@EchoShots in the Bible we don't read specifically about God's Trinity but we reach the conclusion through the reading and study of verses in their context, in The Bible Jesus never said specifically " I Am God worship me" but again context and full knowledge reveal us the truth. So if you think the Bible is a kind of Dictionary or manual instruction where you have specific commands and if it doesn't say "you must, you mustn't" doesn't count well you never understood the Bible.
This is error.
Paul's perspective on N.T. Wright.
2 Corinthians 11:13-14
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.