Is Susie X Noelle TOXIC? | Is this relationship DOOMED!? | Deltarune Theory and Discussion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2024
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It seems like every day there's another argument on Twitter over whether or not Suselle (the fan-favorite Deltarune ship between Susie and Noelle) is TOXIC. Some people think Noelle is OBSESSED with Susie, while others believe that we're 100% getting a happily ever after. I decided to step in and discuss my thoughts on this, providing an honest analysis of the game itself.
Fangames played: "Deltarune Chapter Rewritten - Scampton the Great" by Sad Bread
gamejolt.com/games/ScamptonGa...
#deltarune #deltarunechapter2 #undertale #theory - เกม
I think that it’s a better trope than “bad ___ x soft ____” because susie isn’t a “bad girl” anymore, she’s definitely more softened towards her friends and noelle can stand up for herself now
Agreed
I don't think Noelle can "stand up for herself now", I think it's shown that she needs to have that quality in her character because of a problem she has. I don't think she's gonna all the sudden be what she was after Chapter 2's normal ending, she's still gonna need to develop the trait properly one way or another in order for it to be interesting if Noelle have as much importance in the story like Susie and Kris.
@@michaelvanmeter6984 yeah u right
when you think about it both Susie and Noelle's personalities have gone toward a middle ground so to speak for example Susie is less rude and Noelle is more confident in herself.
@@michaelvanmeter6984 I agree she can only "stand up for herself" when her friends are about to die. I feel like saying that she can is an over exaggeration.
I wouldn't call Noelle's crush toxic, if only just because she's done NOTHING. Like think about what she's actually done... bring chalk to Susie in a lunchbox? Ask Kris to being Susie to her and Berdly's group meeting? At least give her time to DO SOMETHING before you call it toxic...
LEGIT. Susie isn't even AWARE of Noelle's crush on her yet, let alone being negatively affected by her. Noelle fantasising or having an unconventional way of expressing her love and affection for Susie does not make it unethical 🤧 My god, people...
Seriously, how can anyonec all this a toxic relationship even before the relationship started?
I mean fair point however there is the scene of noelle choking berdly and then the next scene we see him which is super close to that scene he’s in a plug by the queen. The implication being berdly got like knocked out of it or even knocked unconscious by this as queen was able to get him super easily
@@krisspychisspi believe it was just a gag not a actually a plot point, and berdly himself isn't the strongst or sharpest lightner so queen could have got him in so many defrent ways easly
@@axolotlinabucket1287 Nah, I meant like you can read it that way not that I personally believe that
I think we can all agree here that no matter what, we will still have wholesome fanart and comics to consume either way
Hopefully not nsfw 💀
@@iyad7148oh there’s always gonna be nsfw unfortunately 💀
@@iyad7148 Actually impossible.
@@iyad7148how long have you been on the internet
if its more than like a day then you need to accept that the internet is the internet and that the people on the internet will not change
@@iyad7148yea unfortunately thats what the joke is implying lol
People keep forgetting that these are literally teenagers and that being "obsessed" over their crush is perfectly normal. And sure, Noelle is attracted to Susie's more negative personality traits, but that doesn't mean that's ALL she wants their relationship to be, or that she doesn't actually see and care about Susie as a real person. It's more like a small "kink", which again, is normal for high-schoolers and shouldn't really be taken as a valid indicator of their relationship.
And like, Noelle just talks a lot about but she doesnt go full envy seeing Susie with Ralsei or stalks her. She still do her things without necessary with Susie.
Far better than most romance in media
Doesn't Noelle show to be happy when she discovers that Susie and Kris became friends and when she sees Susie being nice to others? Here it is, Noelle caring about the good traits
No it’s not that normal
@@gamercentral2417trust me it is, i was and still am a teenager with teenage friends, saying, doing and wanting stupid things is kinda what teenagers do
I know this video is about Suselle, but can we talk about something you mentioned off-handedly: the fact that Susie might get angst about realizing that people in the Dark World are really just items in the Light World. Because, somehow, that never occured to me as a future plotpoint and just entertaining the thought tugs at my heartstrings.
Like, imagine a scene where some darkner like Ralsei or Lancer sees she's upset and asks her what's wrong and in return she yells out something like "Why would I tell you? You're not even a real person!" T.T
@nataliaborys1554
that might reignite ralsei's conflict with Susie, since that would come direct conflict of ralsei trying to find who he really is.
Feels like a mischaracterization. I don’t think she is the type of person to deny someone their autonomy. She was against Ralsei for his comments about purpose, and a huge part of her character is how she can’t be controlled. She’d be more interested in the darkners and other friends gaining their freedom to be who they are. It feels more like a Ralsei thing to say to self deprecate.
The only way I could see it happening is if she was feeling bad about herself, believing her only friends are either possessed or inanimate objects, and therefore she’s pathetic for not being able to make “real friends”.
I mean that doesn't really make sense considering darkners are alive despite being objects, just cause they're an object doesn't mean they aren't alive.
Imagine if that character is the Secret boss and just replays with "yeah I know"
"characters arent real people. They're more like mini books"
I feel like this statement applies not just to this video, but to ALL media in general. Very often do I see people actively read too deeply into what a character does or apply OUR morality to what they do
You don't necessarily have to agree with what a character does "because they were made that way" (frankly I have gripes with that because just because something is the point doesn't matter if the point sucks)
but sometimes it's good to remember that you are reading a story, not a real life event
But a lot of people get their enjoyment of story based media via immersion, which means pretending whars happening is real and getting lost in that.
Id even say just as many people enjoy media via immersion than people who see a story as just a story. Thats why Nagito from Danganronpa is so divisive.
Story people love him because he is entertaining and pushes the story in interesting directions, immersion people bate him because if he was a real person he would be insufferable.
Neither way to enjoy stories is wrong.
@@WerWer-gz5kkIt becomes a wrong way to enjoy the story when people harass eachother cause they pretend a character is real.
I kinda of get what you mean, it's good to seperate rcition and reality. But a Deltarune video is the second last place I expected to see someone saying this, with the first being an Undertale video. Like, 99.9℅ of the game is the characters, which makes this a weird thing to just say
Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic but personally I think the whole thing about the relationship being interesting, probably comes down to preference. Personally I love where it's currently at and as a much as I would love it to grow, I'm still intrigued here and now.
Yes
Good comment. Tastes are always subjective. There is no such thing as objectively pretty or gross or fun or boring, they are all subjective, emotional experiences. So you are fully correct, neither experience is superior or inferior, what you like is fully valid, but people demanding it be one way or another way based solely on their own subjective experience is...less so. Constructive criticism? Aye, that's good. Concerns? Also good. People claiming "guuhhh it would be boring!!!"? Eh...
Good, too bad it might not even have any relationships in the whole game but there’s still hope, maybe
This analysis is amazing!
I honestly like very much the possibility of this relationship (If that is what Toby wants of course, because of some things you mentioned)
I feel that people overreacts too much about what Noelle says or does. Is the same way as a teenager acts with its crush, honestly I remember my female friends be like this towards their crushes at high school: talked about them a lot, or ask about them to their friends, tried to sit near to them in class or talk to them, be embarrassed near them, try to give them gifts with notes. That is the only thing Noelle does, and is entirely normal... is not like she has her room only about Susie or that she harasses her in a negative light. When she talks to Susie in the ferris wheel we must remember that Noelle thinks is a dream, she could try to steal a kiss from Susie or ask uncomfortable stuff but she does not do that. She talks with Susie in a very respectful way, trying to really know her and never tries to make her uncomfortable even if she thinks that is not real and has no implications.
The only thing I find that is not very healthy is that Noelle idealizes Susie a little bit, and sometimes she tries to say stuff to impress Susie and is not entirely transparent, like she has her in a pedestal but honestly that is part of how you see people when you just fall in love with them, and that is part of her arc with Susie. Later you start to discover that people that seem to be perfect have always flaws or weaknesses inside and she being able to know Susie and discover that she has flaws like her could be liberating for both of them. Susie would also learn that the best student of the class is also sad and has problems. And since they are opposites in a lot of things they could help each other a lot.
For me, what is interesting about this relationship and how it ties to some of the themes of the game is that this relationship is opposite to how Kris and Susie are tied together.
Kris and Susie are misunderstood and rejected people they are both the troublemakers or pranksters, and in an opposite way, Noelle is the most accepted person in the group and by the adults but is as misunderstood and as isolated as them. Susie being close to Noelle also would affect Kris, and maybe make Noelle and Kris to be closer and confront or talk about the problems of their families that are tied to the central theme of the game.
The major problem i have with this ship is that Noelle never Had a reason to like Susie and she Has Susie in a pedestal like you said, like the only interaction that I can remember they had before even chapter 1 started was Noelle watching Susie bullying Kris, and I can't understand how anyone can like the person who bully your friend. If Noelle started liking Susie after they meet in dark world and after seeing that Susie was not a bad person I wouldn't have any troubles with this ship but for this reason I can't like It.
There was the time when noelle gave susie a pencil, making susie never bullie her, but it is still not a reason to noelle like her
Amazing analisys!
@@nome49 I mean I get that but I think she's interested partially with the idea of Susie first of all: brave, and scary to Noelle but in a "good" way like she said. To me considering that into the question makes it make sense, plus Noelle's crush can develop as Susie's character does
She litteraly stare at her ass. And have a wet masochist dream
The relationship is doomed but not because it's toxic, it's because susie is a harem protag, & therefore cannot get with anyone.
I honestly think it’s be boring to have Susie and Noelle become toxic and stay that way. Noelle’s arc isn’t that she’s obsessive, but rather that she needs to gain confidence. I could see her becoming who Susie was at the start of the game: Overly confident, snarky and rude; but for her arc to come full circle she would have to learn how to be confident without being a jerk. (I think this only works in the Snowgrave route as Noelle does lean into being a bit controlling) Vice-versa for Susie, if we have to ignore her clear character development going into Ch2 (where she is not much of a bully anymore anyway due to her new friends), then Susie would have to go from someone rude to someone who is nice. Maybe somewhere in the middle becoming too nice and puts others before her in order for it to be toxic on her end. Which I don’t think is likely to happen either in the main route.
I wholly agree that their relationship will grow, but will face hardships as they learn to deal with their emotions. It’s very clear that since day one Susie has been nothing but nice to Noelle so I have no idea where people got it into their heads that Susie would “push Noelle around”, and Noelle is capable of having conversations that don’t have to do with Susie and people tend to talk about their favorite person a lot anyway. I think the only actual point in game against Susie and Noelle staying together is the warning Kris gets to protect Noelle against Susie, but we don’t even know if that’s because Catti still sees Susie as a bully or is foreshadowing.
If anything maybe the Weird/Snowgrave route will show us the darkest part of them,and Normal route will keep them as wholesome and grow stronger together.
"Is Squidward abusive to SpongeBob?"
...
More often, I'ld say SpongeBob is, (unwittingly) abusive to SquidWard!
Squidward can be abusive to SpongeBob, but his conchence usually makes him feel bad for him.
Great video, you hit the nail on the head. Fandoms can be so weird. I think a lot of people form opinions based on fan works alone, especially in the Undertale/Deltarune fandom, and ignore the actual games (see also: people thinking Sans is way cooler than he is, when he's just a normal dude 99% of the time).
This is ESPECIALLY bad for the UT fandom. The UT fandom has extremely weird interpretations of sans, papyrus, toriel and sometimes even the player charachter. I think ironically, people understand undyne way more. The UT fandom has some of the worst interpretations ever
The DR fandom isnt that much like that, they replaced AUs with theories tho.
@@Snt1_ I mean the player character doesn't really show much of personality is more reflection of us than anything.
So of course people will project themselves or how the character might be like, when it comes to misinterpretation of characters it happens very often in other fandoms the only reason why people focused on UT fandom is because it was the biggest which normally can also get in toxic people as well.
@@Snt1_Yeah I agree, I feel like people completely misunderstand the characters' personality :/
Gotta remember that large portion of the Fandom are actually School Age Children. (Yes Teens are Children in my eyes) Gotta let the Kiddies have there Cringe Phase and grow. Same deal with UT Fandom from long ago.
@@stevenclouds Oh of course, there's nothing wrong with diving headfirst into a fandom, and I'm glad kids have such amazing games these days. It's just good to take a step back and remember that these things aren't worth worrying about.
HEY, THANKS FOR WATCHING! A few things to note: First off, things have been VERY busy. I'm planning on releasing a video or two before launching a BIG CHANNEL UPDATE! I'm talking an entire visual refresh, so look forward to that! Also, I am looking to figure out how to get better sound quality, haha.
EDIT:
It's come to my attention that the quality of this video is... a bit less good than others. Frankly, this video was a bit rushed- I haven't gotten a video out in a month, and I really didn't want there to be a month where no videos released. That being SAID, there is a large channel update planned very soon, which will involve higher production value and much "cleaner" videos. Also, as I said before, better sound quality.
PS. Hey SpookyDood! I've been a long time viewer and I just wanted to say thank you for making these videos. It is appreciated. Not much else to say. But have a happy, spooky, Autumn/Fall. My birthday is Nov 1st. So I particularly love the *haunting* season. ;)
Looking forward to the update and future videos! I really appreciated the things you said in this one, and it made me excited to see where the relationship between Susie and Noelle goes! :) Also, just wanted to ask, is there any chance you can add captions to your future videos? It would make it a lot easier for me and my loved ones to watch your stuff more frequently, as we all use captions due to disability, but the auto-captions aren't always up to speed/correct enough for parts of the vid.. :S Thanks and take care!
pin the comment stupi
According to your Twitter, "if you wubba me I'll wubba you."
Woah
If i may
I disagree with the idea that conflict is automaticly more intresting
You need both peace and conflict
Do to much conflict and the audience/fandom is liable to be annoyed
I don’t think their current relationship or any or Noelle’s behavior towards Susie so far is toxic. If the lore from the Spamton Sweepstakes is canon, I do find it disturbing that she seems to find Susie horribly bullying Kris to be attractive. This is also kind of confusing because in the game before she meets Susie, she says she was hoping that she’s nice. I don’t really understand where Noelle’s coming from at this time.
Depends on what you’re talking about. Cuz Noelle wants to know about Susie, but that doesn’t mean she’s into bullying. She even talks about how she finds Kris and Susie’s interaction with the apple a bit scary and is worried about it.
She says she likes horror, and I think that says a lot. She isn’t into actual bullying, but could be into the idea of someone being more forceful in a relationship dynamic. But she wants to know about Susie to know if she’s actually nice.
I think that apple was an apple of love.@@ma.2089
Suselle is not 100% canon yet. As of these two chapters, it can be seen as one sided with Noelle just liking Susie. Susie probably just likes Noelle because she is another friend who is nice to her, that’s probably why Susie wants to save Noelle, because she might see Noelle as someone who cares about her. Noelle has a genuine crush on her, that is what is shown. It’s not they both love each other romantically. Also, Noelle wants to stand up for herself because she can’t say no to others (except Ruby and Kris for pity and funny reasons), that was implied in chapter 1 by Ruby, and explored further by Ruby’s dialogue in chapter 2. The Susie personality complementing Noelle’s personality being the reason why she stands up for herself is an assumption by a narrative perspective, it’s not implied like Rubys dialogue is as I have seen. Overall, I don’t think it’s toxic, but I definitely think there is some misunderstanding of how characters feel and act because of assumptions on an early build of an unfinished game. Anything can change for the sake of good world and game building.
Agreed, didn’t Berdly also have a crush on susie?
@@RikuMcduckeveryone has a crush on susie
@@azure4622 except Lancer
With how many people openly or an implied to like Susie (Noelle berdly Kris and maybe even Asriel because of the how to draw dragons book)
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of plot twist like Susie not liking anyone
That could be interesting from a narrative point but would course chaos in the community lmao
Just started the video and I wanted to say I’m SO impressed by the fact that you immediately clarified what matters - whether or not DELTARUNE thinks Suselle is toxic. This is an important point missed in so much fan discourse in general, and one that heavily affects how certain dynamics and relationships are viewed
This was a very good video. I especially like that you clearly illustrated the difference between fiction & real life & how fiction is never as simple as applying real life morality to it.
Writers have to always go to unrealistic ways of conveying character traits, themes, plot points etc and Noelle's *crush* on Susie is just another example of that.
Great video!
Do they always have to?
@@ilikegoblo4665 Yes writers always potray characters in unrealistic ways to convey their surface level character traits.
It is only later on, do we eventually & subtly learn they have layers of depth which can be then retroactively applied to their surface level traits.
Take Flowey for example.
First thing we learn he's a selfish asshole. Then after Ruins we can learn various things about him depending our choices, some hints to his past & his power but without context we don't really understand. After that we learn about him in New Home through Asriel except we didn't know it was his backstory. Then in Photoshop Flowey his asshole nature is reinforced. It is only after that, in True Lab & final boss fight do we finally understand him & why he's such an asshole.
I feel like one thing you might of forgotten to mention in terms of how much impact a character has had on Susie is Kris themselves, and how it seems like that will be the primary bond that develops throughout the series as of chapter 2, whether it be purely friendship or something else entirely and how much Kris has changed Susie's life just by going on that life changing adventure they went on together in chapter 1. NGL, while I can see how both sides of the debate can shape how Susie might ultimately end up with, I also see evidence of Susie not fully understanding or reading well with romantic inclinations from others, its almost giving off Ace energy due to her himbo approach of the situations that were presented. We will know for sure going forward, granted I doubt Noelle will be in Chapter 3 and that chapter will be a chapter focused on Kris's household and how their mom and dad's breakup affected their family life.
I feel like "fake" is the wrong word to use for the dark world adventures, it's not like they aren't real. Sure the darkners are all objects given life and whatnot but that's just magic, not like it was all a dream. And while we are controlling Kris there is plenty of evidence to show that Kris does care about Susie as well, so the relationship isn't fake either even if Susie finding out about the whole thing and coming to terms with it is a likely plot point. That's just my minor nitpick though, as for the main topic of the video you handled it very well. You're true, you're trueing, as I am one to say.
I will suggest you go over your audio with a finer toothed comb while editing, there was at least twice in this video where you left in a bad line read and it's happened in a lot of your other videos too, it's a bit distracting.
2 things:
1. Yeah, the adventures definitely shouldn't be called "fake," I used that word because it's muuuuch simpler than my full thoughts, which I WILL get into in another video. .
2. Yes, I noticed it after I uploaded. I rushed this one because I haven't uploaded in a month, between college, a 9-5 job, and various other slowdowns, my work-rate has been... less than great. I'm actually planning a full channel rebrand very soon, witb much higher production quality, and maybe a new mic, lol. I do appreciate the feedback
If you take the first impressions of them, yes, it sounds like something with high potential for toxicity. Noelle being even meeker than Kris and Susie being a bully even teachers are scared of.
But that's actually an interesting premise for a different kind of story - when instead of falling into the obvious pattern they both connect on a different level, exploring a different side of themselves and each other.
And if you say a conflict is needed for a good story - it doesn't have to be interpersonal. Two inner conflicts between what they are used to act as and what they truly desire to be. And then confronting their old reputation together.
Maybe Susie's regular behavior is about pushing things to the limit - but not actually breaking anything. Kris's stoicism is seen as a perfect target (but then they slowly find some mutual goodwill despite toxic start). With Noelle, Susie doesn't even try pushing, seeing that Noelle may be too easy to break this way.
And Noelle might be so tired of being a good girl that she somewhat craves being dragged around by a bad girl just to get some of that aura. But what she truly needs might be some agency of her own.
Kris 🗿
I feel like it's probably gonna be a relationship that stays in endgame
also I can't wait to see how well that Rudy statement ages
You said that she doesnt actually want to be slammed into a locker, but I think there is a very real possibility that Noelle is into being bullied (edit: changed the wording to not include the word "kink")
Besides moments like this one where Noelle is jealous of the mostly negative attention Kris received from Susie theres also another big piece of evidence. The ad enemies can bring up ads based on the characters search history/likes. There is specifically a dating website one and for Noelle it says that there are "hot female santa claus in the area". At first glance this seems like another christmas joke but its actually said somewhere else in the game that shes scared of santa claus.
So the fact that she said she likes scary things and that being scared also seems to be relevant for her romance life points heavily in the direction that she likes Susie because of her bully persona, not despite it. Which could potentially change their whole dynamic.
Lord I am not reading any of that she is a child
@@souplife1
Wtf. Im not writing this because I want to sexualize the characters or smth.
Im just saying we shouldnt discard the idea that, from a character analysis standpoint, she likes Susie because she is a bully not despite it. Which is a huge difference.
@@3DFella I am aware that teens develop a sex drive, but I'm also pretty sure Toby Fox isn't gunna make a minor having a kink be a big part of his game. idk just a random thought.
@@tobiasbayer4866 and I'm pointing out that Toby Fox would not write Noelle to have a kink that's weird to bring up at all
@@tobiasbayer4866 like idk change your wording I guess, maybe she likes being bullied, doesn't have to be a kink
While I don't think the relationship is toxic I do think that Noel's interest in susie is unhealthy. In the spamton sweepstakes it is revealed that when Susie was horribly mistreating kris after school while Noel did "try" to help she was still romanticizing about susie in her head. That besides, If I saw anyone treating another person that poorly I would never even think about being in a relationship with them in the firstplace, especially if the person on the receiving end is your best friend. Something just feels icky about how its portrayed.
It feels icky because Toby really *really* wants Suselle, regardless of the player's experience. Therefore it feels unnatural and forced.
Sometimes, that’s just how crushes are, especially for teenagers. Rose tinted glasses and all that
@redspiderlilys6 This feels more like a worrisome than a regular crush, honestly. If you look at how Alphys was crushing on Undyne, you WILL see the cringe, that's undeniable. She wrote fanfics about her and the two of them together, blushed like mad, tried to present herself in the best possible light in front of Undyne. But STILL, Alphys didn't ever fantasize about Undyne bullying her verbally/physically, Undyne wasn't her lifeline like Susie is to Noelle (she was more jealous when Berdly simply said he had a crush on Susie than Mad Mew Mew did when she realizes Undyne doesn't return her feelings; this is a comparison someone else in the comments made and I agree).
Susie is everything Noelle wants to be, and I'm left wondering what she started admiring about her in the first place besides physical strength. Before the Dark World stuff, Susie was 100% her worst self; failing classes and bullying Kris and stealing chalk. That's all she was before she reformed. Noelle had a really shallow reason to be into her besides her tough girl persona.
Cringey and shallow crushes are fine, but what I don't like at all here is how noelle would rather think about her kinks than help Kris. She's known for some time what was going on but never bothered to be a good friend. Big red flag to me.
To me, if you want to go for a tough x shy person, Ralsusie is way better.
Its the stalker trope of romance that sometimes appears randomly
@@redspiderlilys6 I’m sick of this “they’re just teenagers”.
One thing i like of Spooky's videos, is that seems so natural, like this little pauses that he makes sometimes, it sounds like more of a conversation than a video.
It isn't about toxicity.
But about Susie being unequipped for relationship.
I don't see Susie as a romantic type, she seems very socially unaware and doesn't seem interested in that (as of the few chapters we've gotten to know her).
Noelle's obsessiveness is unhealthy, not toxic.
It's more of a personal flaw of Noelle rather.
This. I don't want someone who's never had friends before to start dating someone a day after making their first friends
@@moonzie37 Exactly, I think she needs more growth and development before that
Interesting take!
I hate when, I’m the DR fandom, people forget that these are CHILDREN. These are not fully developed adults, these are just high schoolers.
THANK YOU for touching on the comparison to Alphys and Undyne. It gets annoying when people refuse to look past the surface of the characters and assume its the same.
I think the difference is best summed up as:
Alphys x Undyne is Nerd x Jock.
Noelle x Susie is Prep x Punk.
I love the statement “Characters are not people”, its a really good mindset to have when analyzing story I wish i heard before
Before watching:
I'd say it's not toxic, but Noelle doesn't seem to truly understand susie.
She gives off the impression of craving to be dominated, wich is a little weird.
Especially when you consider susies tough act is a defense mechanism and not her genuine self
Teenagers do developed kinks it happens, Noelle doesn't seems to have any problems with lack of bully persona and cares about Susie (gives her box of creds for lunch which shows that she cares and knows what her love interest likes.
Even is very insightful about Susie's body language).
This is the most realistic portrayal
of teenage 1st stage of relationship.
@@rafsandomierz5313I get that. The weirdness just comes to me from the fact that noelle seems to not be aware, that susie wouldn't enjoy, stomping on noelle or throwing her against a wall.
It comes across like noelle only likes what she thinks susie is like
@@1slayer959 this.
@@1slayer959 ...no? noelle wants susie to be good. it's stated as much in-game
@@ihaetschool3361 she has literally seen susie threaten gorey violence to kris and thought, "god I wish that was me"
I think it says a lot about something that when you said "Noelle doesn't actually want to be bullied" my immediate thought was "no she does (and thats ok)"
My stance on Noelle being "obsessive" is
First, it's deltarune, of course toby would exaggerate things either for comedy or to get a plot point across.
Second.. I mean, it's a teenage crush. You can't expect people to be 100% rational when they're in love. That's the whole point, you stop being normal at least at some extent.
With that being said, I think people hold fictional(!) characters to a way too high standart, and I'm not even talking about real people. On one hand it's good to analyse characters and point out their flaws, but on the other.. sometimes it just turns into some sort of a moral competition circus online. I just wanna say that people can enjoy problematic characters without being bad people. It is, in fact, possible.
Relationships in media are so much better when their relationship is represented by them caring for each other and trying to help that person rather than gushy smoochiness
Personally, I just don't like the relationship and I'm not a fan of the trope of "bad guy has a soft spot for someone just cuz they 'smiles'". I find the whole relationship forced, and without much chemistry at all. I think noelle has actual reason to like susie, but susie reciprocating is very weird and slightly out of character. We did plenty of nice things for susie in ch 1 but it took a while for her to actually see us as friends.
However, despite me finding the whole ship seriously bland, annoying, and honestly - i hate their 'dynamic' - i disagree with all the 3 points that haters are making. The relationship is not inherently toxic, susie is clearly not uncomfortable, noelle's not obsessed and is actually behaving pretty normally for a highschool girl. I mean... I was a highschool girl just last semester lmao I think I have enough experience 😭
To be fair we have 5 more chapters for them to warm up together
If Toby uses his time correctly, it can be justified over that huge time frame
Technically I feel like Susie fully 180'ing and acting like a different person is possible if the transition is seamless, but I'm of the belief that anyone can do or become anything under the right circumstances
If Toby wants Susie to reciprocate, he'll surely bridge that gap somehow
you're overblowing susie's initial fondness for noelle. all that changed when noelle gave her the pencil was that susie DIDN'T bully noelle. nothing more
thank you for this video! sick of seeing people say that toby fox is purposefully portraying them as toxic.
to add onto your point about noelle liking susie being a repeated character trait, it's important to remember that a lot of moments she talks about liking susie aren't guaranteed to be seen by the player. a lot of them are flavor text dialogue that only happen if you instigate it (talking to her in town in chapter 1, examining the ferris wheel poster). this relationship is clearly important in some way or another so toby needs to make sure you ACTUALLY know that noelle likes susie, and since some of the confirmation of that is optional, it makes sense he would keep bringing it up just in case
also, for some reason people are less likely to recognize that two girls like each other romantically even when it's obvious; some people seem to think two girls are "just friends" until it's outright stated that they aren't. "gal pals" and all that lol. so honestly toby repeating noelle's crush so much feels partially like him making sure we know it's romantic and not just platonic
i agree with your last point, hell, in undertale undyne and alphys literally went on a date and kissed and yet some people still think that there's a possibility either one of them is straight.
it's weird how for wlw couples in fiction you have to practically bash the fact that the two are in love into people's minds or people will be like "oh, i love female friendship!"
We still don't know if Susie likes her back romantically, personally I find her feelings ambiguous, but if you think it's 100% canon, good for you
@@moonzie37 i mean i don't think it's canon and i didn't say that 😅 im just saying clearly noelle's feelings and susie and noelle's relationship (whether it becomes romantic or not) are important in some way...i agree that we can't know for sure tn
@@treedust6563 they definitely WILL be important. I hope that whatever Toby does with them he does it well
I knew two girls when I was in high school
Let's call them Jenny and Clara
(not their real names)
And they were like, hard crushing on eachother, constantly flirting and exchanging looks and all
But like
They both thought the other was just being friendly?
And Clara was complaining to me as she, quote, "wasn't sure if Jenny was even interested" and it was one of those times I actually violently facepalmed.
Partially from my urging, they did get together, but I haven't spoken to either since high school's end, so I don't kniw how their relationship developed. It's been years.
I think we have all been too broken by the heteronormativity perpetuated by religion and conservatism, making it difficult for many to realize that love manifest in many ways, not always just one man and one woman, leading to people not realizing and accepting their love and sexuality.
what confuses me is the idea that a relationship/character can only be endearing or “good” if the way the characters behave is completely morally acceptable
3:04 - "Is Squidward abusive because he's always mean to Spongebob?" - No, it's really not that one-sided.
You're exactly right about conflict, and how it doesn't necessarily have to be between the two people in a relationship. The worst romance stories are the ones riddled with pointless misunderstandings and arguments.
What makes a good romance is watching the characters' relationship grow as they learn about themselves and each other. And the most important thing is that the ending of the story is emotionally satisfying. That doesn't necessarily mean they get together, but just that the audience is happy with what happened.
A story where Suzelle doesn't happen romantically could eaisly work and still be satisfying, but breaking out into conflict and becoming toxic is not satisfying at all. Interesting? Sure. But very upsetting to the fans that care about these characters' relationship
satisfying and satisfaction could actually be found in that scenario. You are usually satisfied when the villain is defeated, no?
@@zixvirzjghamn737Neiether Susie or Noelle have been set up to be a villain. I've read a LOT of romance in my time, and what I see with Suselle so far is a set up to a wholesome relationship (not necessarily romantic, but wholesome. And probably romantic if we're being honest).
If the relationship was going to end up toxic, we would have seen one or two obvious hints by now. Most of the people who think it will be toxic are reading WAY between the lines tbh
@@shaianna.1222 Sorry I accidentally misread the conflict as them being villains.
Great Analysis! I agree that the relationship isn't toxic and won't become toxic, although I do believe it would be more interesting for the relationship to fail romantically. Specifically I feel it would be more interesting for Susie to turn down Noelle.
Susie's whole arc is about learning to connect with others, something she has very little experience in, and having to reject and risk her relationship with one of the few people she has gotten close to would make for an good exploration on balancing personal boundaries.
It would also make for an interesting arc for Noelle. Finally learning to be more outspoken and less of a pushover, yet still not getting what she wants, in the way she wants it.
I doubt it is going to develop like this, but I still think if would be a interesting exploration of the reality of some relationships.
i feel like any relationship involving susie or noelle is bound to be in some way toxic if they're not actively getting help for their implied traumas, whether it's kriselle or suselle or krusie you're shipping, i personally think that it'll have conflict either way. that being said, i agree 100% with every point you made in this video!! thank you for another great one spookydood 👻
Susie is a harem protag, Kris is just the side character
@@zixvirzjghamn737 valid take
i hate to pull this card but i feel like it wouldn’t be that big of a deal if noelle was a guy simping over another guy……. it reminds me of how the omori fandom sometimes likes to portray basil as someone obsessed and creepy with sunny. and i don’t even think THAT was as toxic as people portray that - but they’ve definitely got WAY more problems than susie and noelle. i just don’t think noelle has done anything too bad but it’s telling how many people seem to hate her….
20:55 I thought deltarune had enough scary moments already, but now i find out Noelle and Susie are going to have to confront the Darkest Wurst?!
I feel like with the way she fantasizes about being shoved into a locker, pushed on the ground and all that by Susie, Noelle is a bit of masochist which, unlike what most people may think, is not a bad thing except when, just like everything in life, it reaches the extreme.
But as Spookydood said, Noelle doesn't reach that extreme, she has a lot more stuff going on in her life than just her crush on Susie. And Susie's violence could be interpreted as her being a bit of a sadist (once again, being a sadist/masochist isn't wrong as long as it doesn't go too far).
And Susie and Noelle having a sadist-masochist relationship could be a great for both of them. They could have a great chimestry and fulfill each other's fantasies.
And for the conflict thing, both Susie and Noelle have conflict that revolves around their respective home lives already. But that means they can relate to and comfort each other, and can support each other when their home lives gets to difficult to bear alone.
If Suselle ended up not working, it would only make things worse in their already not great lives. I say they deserve to get together and help each other go through this. And there would still be conflict anyway so why would you be complaining ?
People amaze me. I thought we didn't kink shame. Masochism and bullying are _tame_ lmao
@@uboa8060 I didn't kink shame, did I ? If I did, please tell me how because it really wasn't my intent.
@@Oceane1803 oh, no, im just talking about other people. I completely agree with you.
@@uboa8060 Oh okay I read your comment again and yeah I see it now.
I never understood why people said Suselle is toxic. Sure it's a bit questionable now, but who knows how it will be after they get character development? I think we need to get through more chapters to really decide.
It won't happen because Susie is the harem protag
This is a fantastic character & relationship analysis!! ❤You've earned my sub
I've heard of lesbians typing shit like wishing some girl would grind her (the one typing) bones into dust irl so how Noelle talks about Susie is normal
please never separate the phrase "grind her" from the rest of the sentence while we're talking about deltarune
i want you to understand while playing this in the background, i somehow managed to mess up making green beans and messed up white rice.
Tbh I’m not saying I’m completely against them getting together but it is a tad strange to me because she’s watched susi on multiple occasions bully kris her friend and still really liked Susie before her and Kris became friends
There was a scene in Ch2 where Susie, upon inspecting the Asriel room, says that she wishes they never meet, seemingly because she really disliked what kind of person Asriel is. So when Asriel comes back to the town, I suspect that Noelle (and Kris) will have to choose between Susie and Asriel. I hope by that time Susie warms up completely
Asriel has dragon porn.
I think it's because of the purple dragon book.
Even irl, Squidward isn’t abusing spongebob, he’s just expressing his annoyance.
Is it abuse to call someone an idiot?
Wait what am I talking about…in certain contexts it can be, but is it here, in this fictional friendship? Idk.
Spongebob/Squidward is clearly comical, but for some reason, Suselle rubs me the wrong way
Imagine if Noelle stops liking Susie because she isn't the same from before Chapter 1..
I adore your content, thsnk you for putting so much effort into making good quality videos! the time you.put in really shows, and your discussion videos brighten my day. =)
i'm rather indifferent towards suselle so far, but definitely looking forward to see how their relationship will progress, and i'm sure we'll get something compelling out of it
idk why people exaggerate and jump to such conclusions this early into the game, but these two obviously have some good foundation to build upon
Very interesting and well-made video! I love it!
Honestly if there's one thing I would want Toby to tease but not make happen is The Roaring because, like, sure, World Ending crisis, but how often do you see World Ending crisis being stopped before even happening? Maybe The Roaring could like Barely happen, as if, starts to happen but it doesn't escalate, I know a game in which that worked out pretty well (but I won't say which one). We saw, and even fought, the antagonist with more power, and it was epic, but the thing is: we barely stopped him. He protagonists didn't immediately defeat him, it's very possible the antagonist would have won. Things didn't had to escalate to world scale to still feel it was epic and that we stopped essencially a world ending crisis. Of course, The Roaring is different from that situation, but I believe it could work, somehow.
No I think depending on the genre characters can be viewed with real life applications, the added context that doesn't/can't happen irl can't be ignored though. Is squidward snippity and shortfused with spongebob? Yeah, spongebon also has inadvertently gotten him mauled by a seabear. Words like abuse and toxic are used in a really juvenile way when they're more applicable in situations that are obviously terrible with the participants acting in a maladjusted way that isn't muddied by real life circumstances. With noelle a big thing that's ignored is we (the audience) have known her for 2 in game days. Not even, we don't see her during class or after school in a meaningful way. She's shown to only take up a lot of kris's time by talking about her crush but she doesn't invade Susie's personal space, she doesn't follow her everywhere like a sick puppy, she's not stalking her. We've only seen her with her pants pulled down, her dads dying, her mom. and shes only around when susie is a topic. Give her a break, the worst thing she's done is be annoying about her crush (subjective)
What was the smash bros Deltarune game you were playing in the start?
14:52, I mean Deltarune's idea was technically planned before Undertale, so this was meant to be Toby's main project while Undertale was a side thing. Additionally, the ship will actually be the original version on Alphyne.
Epic Rivals of Aether footage in the background. I always loved Rivals of Aether because of it’s modding. All the Deltarune characters being modded into Rivals of Aether is just another reason why it is an amazing game.
Okay, I hate to make this about sexuality, but the way people talk about Noelle as “creepy” or “obsessive” really rubs me the wrong way. The “predatory lesbian” stereotype is something that has been around a long time and I really think it’s influencing the way people view Suselle. Noelle is seen as deviant because she expresses a strong attraction to Susie, despite the fact that Noelle never acts entitled to her affection, treats her with respect and genuinely wants to get to know her as a person, and Susie is never shown to be uncomfortable with her advances, even blushing when thinking about her in certain dialogues, and wanting to ask her to hang out in the light world several times before she’s interrupted. Being attracted to another person isn’t a fucking sin.
Yeah, Noelle does show attraction to Susie’s “bully” persona, and maybe she’s a little misguided, but why does she have to be perfect? She’s a teenager, and teenagers are messy and full of hormones and just figuring themselves out. People writing her off as creepy and obsessed because of these moments while willfully ignoring the rest of their relationship show that they can’t handle a character with any flaws whatsoever without immediately demonising them. People and relationships grow and change, and having two characters who are perfect for each other get together with no conflict and never having to go through character development for their love interest is almost never how stories go.
Well, I'm no theologist, but i'm pretty sure the Quaran explicitly states that stuff like Noëlle having feelings for Susie IS a sin. I reckon the two other Abrahamic religions and their Holy texts share a similar position, no ? So people feeling like that about this dubious relationship is logical i suppose ?
Either way, it doesn't matter all that much because I doubt Noëlle will even be alive at the end of DR since it's kinda hinted that Lord Gaster is After her, and serving him IS literraly our duty so yeah rip blonde deer lol
@@laguet93 religion has literally nothing to do with this sorry you’re homophobic or whatever get well soon
@@endervalentine9588 "being attracted to someone isn't a freaking SIN" you're the one that mentionned religious concepts, not me. I'm giving you a heads up because what you said is literraly gonna be a death sentence when westerners will be living under Islamic Law.
@@endervalentine9588 You mentioned Sin, a major religious concept, so it absolutely IS about religion. Stand by your words. You said that loving someone isn't a Sin which, in the context of same sex relationships, is false. All three Abrahamic religions have a similar position on the matter. The Holy Quaran being, in my personal opinion, the most explicit.
@@laguet93 Okay, let me rephrase:
Fuck everything you stand for, go jump in a lake.
Better?
Believe it or not, I've also people grown to want Susie and Noelle to be a 3 way ship with Kris.
@RezeedTheDataspirit
what would that even leave ralsei with?
@@chongwillson972 There are plenty of fish in the sea. Plus, it would be hilariously cute to see Ralsei with someone like Temmie or "The Great Papyrus". If you want chemistry, Birdly or Rouxls would be a great comedic take. Also, that's the thing about ships, the nature could vary from person to person, and never has to make sense, but if you can make the argument, all the more fun.
@@chongwillson972hot take: not every character needs to be in a relationship. not everyone benefits from relationships irl, aromanticism is a thing
@@chongwillson972ralsei also joins this nightmare relationship
I've never seen such a perspective, I'm excited!
Plus even if they mostly face conflict together we can still have scenes in snowgrave where Noelle starts to hate Susie for the reason she once loved her as all Noelle’s control gets stripped away one layer at a time to the point she can’t be sure what thoughts are hers and what thoughts are ours, Susie’s control taking nature would become the bad type of scary, and part of me thinks that might be the whole point of the snowgrave route like who are the people who might be victims to our control Susie’s main love interest and the only adult Susie shows any respect to, and as to why, who could be a bigger thorn in our side then the girl with enough willpower to resist our control and how would you deal with that? Simple take everyone and everything they could be fighting for out of the picture and then as even Susie falls completely under our control we take the main force influencing Kris to act on their own bringing us to a higher level of power then even the genocide route would give
I've never heard of this being toxic wtf
me either 😭✋🏻
What's the fighting game in the background?
I would like to think that Deltarune's fandom would know better than to characterize a blatantly queer relationship as inherently abusive but what do I know.
You think you know better than Jesus.
What is the video game in the background for the first part
you know what? youve convinced me, i still dont like it personally but if toby goes the way of the ship i wont mind
Honestly it's just the DELTARUNE Is equivalent to nerd and big bully ship Which Can happen in these universes. If you've seen undertale, I'm not gonna spoil it for you even though you probably already know. Because who doesn't if you clicked on this video
amazing video bro, goodjob
Im very glad this video addressed everyman’s canon hatred of suselle
Hard times when your name won't fit by one letter. 15:42
I understand
LESS GOO, another theory video!
Imagine Susie and Noelle fighting each ather in the weird route how crazy could that be
I think that Susie is aromantic
I don’t have any evidence that she is but she just gives off those vibes
How the hell would ppl think their relationship is toxic?
It's not like Susie actively bullies Noelle or manipulated her to do some nasty stuff or something ;P
But some part of Noelle apparently wants to be bullied by her
It's not "toxic" perse but Noelle's view of Susie is not conducive to a good realtionship. If she only likes Susie because she acts like a bully (even though she really doesn't want to be one deep down, and wants to be friends with everyone) then that's not good.
@@gianni50725 In the Ferris Wheel scene Noelle says how apparently she likes Susie because she does "crazy stuff," which I wouldn't find as a bad reason IF it wasn't for the fact that the only light in which Noelle saw Susie was as Kris' bully. What exactly is she admiring Susie for? Being a violent tormentor? Being physically abusive towards her best friend? I don't get it.
It's not like Susie ever did something nice to her, something that would REALLY make her admire her and she'd see that Susie, deep down, is a good person.
what the hell is that super smash bros looking ahh deltarune gameplay I need that
What's that smash bros like Deltarune fan game called?
Also great vid.
You are one of the only deltarune theorists I watch who uses nuance
Where did that smash bros deltarune game come from?
1:08 I think you forgot to double check the video over there
I dunno, as a real person who knows real people, I can confirm some people want to be bullied (with consent) 😁
Personally I'll take either an arc where they get together and live out their happily ever after or an arc where they get together but break-up without any harsh feelings and Noelle learns to be confident in herself again possibly rebelling from Kris (if you chose the Snowgrave route)
Every single time I talk to people everyone says that Susie X Noelle is canon, I’m sick of hearing that.
They're not officially a couple in game, but Noelle IS into Susie. Susie does like Noelle but just as a friend. If anything, the teas you can get in game show she likes Kris, Noelle and Ralsei equally.
0:26 love this part-
This is TOO reasonable!!! How am I supposed to bad faith interpret something you said when all of this makes sense! AUGH!
*explodes 100 million times 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥*
The last Deltarune fan with media literacy:
What's up ith that deltarune smash bros right at the begining of the video?
Rivals of Aether
@@sonicfanboy3375 With a mod?
@@ciro_costa Yeah
6:52 or they are but even then thats just masochism, not abbuse.
3:10 I thought you were talking about sherlock holmes
They could really go any direction from where they are. I think that, in the context of the greater story, them growing closer is more likely and probably more engaging, but if it turned sour or became a bit of a roller coaster it definitely wouldn't feel like it came from nowhere.
On second argument:
Me not having a crush om anyone in YEARS probably affects this and usually I don’t like ships n’ stuff except for plot so yeah I find myself in 2 and 3
mineta is a great example of repeating character stereotypes to establish who they are.
mineta’s whole character IS the creep. he is SUPPOSED to be the creep, so he is shown that way over and over again
what is the game at the start, im assuming its a mod but what is it i need to know
3:04 I cackled when you showed squidward and SpongeBob 😂
Why the hell is Squidward Q. Tentacles in the top right of the thumbnail
Very reasonable take on this situation. Didn't even consider a lot of the points. well done as always!
Really can't think why people would want Noelle and Susie's to become toxic or fail. They have the potential to be in a more developed relationship than Undone and Alphys. They will be facing their fears and growing each chapter, together (I hope so), and even if they're apart they will inspire each other to be strong. I'm really into their relationship as it will grow each chapter and we will actually see how they change chapter by chapter 🩷😫 cool video by the way, I'm a fan 🥰
What's funny is the other day McJapan posted another ad that contains a werewolf lesbian who's got her arms around her gf
1:09 i think you left a wrong take there, but still a great video!
NOOOOO my credibility is ruined..... (lol thanks for watching!)
Sorry, Im stupid: Why is it a wrong take?
@@Snt1_ they said it wrong then corrected themselves but left out the wrong part on the video
@@elianhg2144 What? I dont understand, please use clearer words
@@Snt1_ When spookydood was recording, they said the script wrong, hence it was a wrong take. Sorry if i sound confusing english isnt my first language