You start getting up into those higher velocities bullet engineering is critical. Loving this testing keep it up. Can't wait till you actually hand load some of those 460s
Thanks and totally agree. I’ve got some 460 Rowland ammo I’m excited to get tested that supposedly was made from 454 casull bullets so the hollow point should stay together better. We’ll see. Then yes, I’ve got some speed gold dot bonded bullets I need to reload for, should be fun!!
I’ve been reloading for a long time and came across CFE pistol powder and I load a 45 with 200 grain hardcast in the Middle of the load data at 1000 FPS the high end is 1143 FPS .according to the data is still at 45 acp pressures , not even + p pressure.
I was a Deputy Sheriff for 27 years, my duty weapon was a glock g20 in 10mm. My off duty or edc has always been a glock g31 in .357sig. I carry it to this day. I really enjoyed the video, alot of good information.
That’s fantastic! I love both of those cartridges! Too often these days it seems the more powerful ones get written off for the cheaper 9mm!! Thanks for sharing this!!
Even 45 auto +p is ehhh they max out between 550-600 ft lbs which is where 40 sw maxes out at also (580 ft lbs) 45 super is a good option to compare to 10mm but holds less ammo, and well 460 rowland hitting standard pressure 44 mag energy is probably the mostt practical caliber to carry if u want real magnum power but not sacrofice the capacity of a revolver
Awesome to see new videos on the .460 Rowland! I don't trust 200gr stuff to be as neat or else their projected velocities came from 6in barrels, not FNX 45's 5in barrels.
It’s possible that it’s 6” but I think it may just be a weak lot. I’ve got some more powerful rounds and even their FMJ is hotter so not really sure what happened here. But I’ve seen that with their 10mm too. They just sometimes dip in power…I’ve seen Buffalo bore do it too. Bad lots or something
@@triggerbarPhD FMJ would be better than Lehigh bullets if the overall length is shorter. Solid copper bullets may be nice and neat but may go as slow as heavier bullets, if the surface area of the bullet is longer/bigger then it comes into more contact with the barrel, more friction. 185gr and lighter/shorter bullets allow for more powder in the case with safer pressure levels. .460 Rowland with 185gr bullets have load data available which could achieve muzzle energies above 1000lbs. At least with attaining velocities around 1200fps with 800lbs muzzle energy is low end .44 Magnum and still viable.
The FN 460 Rowland comes with 2 different rate recoil springs, 1 for 45acp & 1 for the 460. Are you changing them out as needed OR does one of them actually work for all 3 calibers???
Great question and I should have included that. I only needed the softer recoil spring for the 45 acp, for the +p, 45 super and 460 Rowland I used the same, heavier spring.
45 SMC and 45 Super are pretty much the same thing. I’m sure you know but didn’t one of them like trade mark it and so the other one is like the “open source” version. At any rate, all the tests I’ve seen the perform pretty similar.
Man you’re easily pleased!! Underwood is saving on powder obviously, compare those same rounds by Buffalo Bore and Double Tapp and you’ll understand my statement.
I have compared them with Buffalo bore. In fact I got a split case with Buffalo bore. I have double tap on order but they are taking months. The point was choosing a bullet that is consistent at least across multiple of these cartridges. This was the only I could find that had the same bullet, same bullet weight for +p, super and 460 Rowland.
.40 cal..takes it! Speed of a 9 and force of a 45.. kidding of course, but that was the argument decades ago. IMO all calibers have improved with time. Great comparison 👍
Thanks my friend! Yah that’s the truth, they are all better and 9mm probably just went from not good enough to good enough and that’s a big difference 🤷♂️
Weird back story. The trigger bar was the first gun upgrade I did (in a Beretta) in my own and kind of ignited a love of guns for me. And I’m drawn to more philosophical gun usage, why this gun, or that gun or when would you want that caliber or this caliber. I’m an engineer and I do have a PhD so sort of? 🤣😂
"Extreme penetrator"? Those should be called "obscene penetrators"!! Polar bears and beluga whales, beware!! Interesting power comparison...thanks for the #s!
I appreciate all the effort you put into this, and only leave this comment as a fan. I think you lost the plot on this one. The question about effectiveness isn't about energy, it's about performance. 230gr hst at various velocities (pressures, from standard, +p, super, and Rowland) would have actually show bullet performance. When you take the same EXPANDING projectiles, at different velocities, you show the operational window of that projectile. The fps operational velocity of 230gr hst vs 185gr xtp would have made a much better video, where you could have seen actual gains and limits. When you used the non expanding projectiles, you failed to illustrate actual gains. The "external hollow point" underwood is just velocity dependent. The more velocity, the more disruption (and I understand that was one of the points you illustrated). But with expanding projectiles you get into the penetration/ expansion compromise, and the fragmentation limit. That is far more relative to the conversation of effectiveness imo (not to discount the work you did, and that I appreciate). The FBI gel scoring protocol can be found in Brass Fletcher('s) website and will show that 16" of gel is the peak scoring, and past 18" is a fail (organic gel). That is for good reason. To maximize terminal effectiveness you want energy transfer. Illustrating how more energy is transferred with the two most popular projectiles would have made a much better video (one I would love to see). Good work as always, and I surely support your work. Look forward to more testing
Thanks Dylan. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and insight. A couple of points on why this test. First it’s hard to find 45 super and 460 Rowland. It’s harder to find an overlap in cartridges that have the same bullet in all 3. Extreme penetrator and hard cast are almost the only ones I could find. I may be able to get an XTP hollow point one but it will be from different companies. Second, while for human and more animal targets the fbi testing is critical, I intend the 460 Rowland as a mostly bear defense round. Most sources I’ve read is about not having enough penetration to get through the bears skin, fat and bone to hit the vitals. Of course some have shown a 9mm to work but there are other examples of 10-15 rounds of 10mm and 44 mag all being found in the fat layers. In that case, penetration and energy are important. Hope that provides the weird context I should have provided in the video. I’ll do some more searching to see if I can get a better hollow point comparison!! Thanks again!
@@triggerbarPhD I appreciate the reply I I fully understand. Just to add, it may be different companies that load the xtp, but it's still the exact same Hornady xtp projectile, and documented, varying velocities. Something that is never illustrated, is how velocity effects the exact same projectile. The best demonstration you will ever see is standard pressure vs +p and barrel length. With the radically different velocities (100-200fps steps for a 230-185gr is pretty radical) you have a great opportunity to show that. Using bare gel and denim, and demanding a "pass" for both really will show how narrow the operational velocity window is. Xtp should have a wide window, but the hst may be more narrow. You should be able to find 185gr and 230gr xtp, but might need to find a hand loader for the hst. I love your content, and effort as always, and great full for it
@@dylanholbrook6239 great suggestions Dylan. Probably hand loading is going to be the way to show this best. My first 460 Rowland video I have some xtp’s in it and you are exactly right, going that speed they basically just come apart. I need to start adding denim to these tests as I know that makes a big difference especially with XTP bullets.
If that 460 Rowland can't even average 1300 fps from an FNX 45, the ammo company needs to lower their claims on the box. What was their test barrel? A 16" carbine? lol
More modern in terms of speed needed to get these harder bullets to expand rapidly vs 45 auto that sometimes cant meet that expansion threshold thai applies also to 380, 38 spcl, etc.
@@jorgesolis9468 Statistically you are correct, in the sense that more 9mm Luger are shipped with a grain weight appropriate for a JHP. In general nothing is keeping manufacturers to load lighter .45 ACP JHP projectiles that get to speeds needed for reliable expansion. But traditionalists clinging to the good old 230 grain are hampering that development. In general, all cartridges today are 130 year old tech. The oh so modern 6.5 Creedmoor is almost a carbon copy of the 1894 6.5x55 Swede with higher chamber pressure 😂
@@nikos6220 I mean even light weight having 45 auto reliably reach supersonic and expansion threshold you have to be hitting 200 gr and lighter like the og +p gold dot
@@jorgesolis9468 yep, the 200 grain GD is a great example. But one thing to consider is that due to the size the velocity can be a bit lower than 9mm. And there is a unicorn bullet design in the HST that can even do it with a 230 😁. If barrier blindness is a consideration I would go with the 135 grain Underwood Xtreme Defender
I truly appreciate the informative video, but I remain committed to using my 45 ACP as my everyday carry. Thank you!
Understood, it will do everything needed!!
Very Cool Comparison, thanks for Sharing! 👍🏼
Thanks my friend!!
You start getting up into those higher velocities bullet engineering is critical. Loving this testing keep it up. Can't wait till you actually hand load some of those 460s
Thanks and totally agree. I’ve got some 460 Rowland ammo I’m excited to get tested that supposedly was made from 454 casull bullets so the hollow point should stay together better. We’ll see. Then yes, I’ve got some speed gold dot bonded bullets I need to reload for, should be fun!!
Really nice job on this! I have abandoned 10mm. 45 Auto is capable of anything I need it to do at close distances.
Thank-you!! I feel like 45 is just getting dismissed the last decade, and for a lot of reasons just shouldn’t be. Thanks for watching!!
I’ve been reloading for a long time and came across CFE pistol powder and I load a 45 with 200 grain hardcast in the Middle of the load data at 1000 FPS the high end is 1143 FPS .according to the data is still at 45 acp pressures , not even + p pressure.
That's great performance! Great powder! I've used CFE pistol for some 9mm loads.
Great test 👌 thanks for showing the round i carry in my 460....those "philips rounds" are 3 bucks a piece...but you do get what you pay for.
Very expensive. You make great content sir!!
@triggerbarPhD that means the world coming from someone with such professional videos! Thank you for the kind words.
@mobilegamersunite hahaha, that’s kind of you, I’ve been a long time follower of yours. Still remember that deer stalking you!
@triggerbarPhD o yeah! That was wild! My dog gets nightmares over it to this day. 😆 🤣 😂 😹
I was a Deputy Sheriff for 27 years, my duty weapon was a glock g20 in 10mm. My off duty or edc has always been a glock g31 in .357sig. I carry it to this day. I really enjoyed the video, alot of good information.
That’s fantastic! I love both of those cartridges! Too often these days it seems the more powerful ones get written off for the cheaper 9mm!! Thanks for sharing this!!
Good stuff TB, I like the comparison and having the reference.
Thanks Craig!! I appreciate you watching!!
Even 45 auto +p is ehhh they max out between 550-600 ft lbs which is where 40 sw maxes out at also (580 ft lbs) 45 super is a good option to compare to 10mm but holds less ammo, and well 460 rowland hitting standard pressure 44 mag energy is probably the mostt practical caliber to carry if u want real magnum power but not sacrofice the capacity of a revolver
Great comparisons!! Yes exactly.
Didnt know that about 460
It’s the same old caliber name tricks- 38 special, 44 mag, etc… lol
Just found you I like how you compare the different ammo I think you did a good job on the video
Thanks a ton! I really appreciate that!!
Dang...that Rowland was cooking! Great video editing, sir. You must be a time traveler? Made this video and went back to the future to upload it. 😁
Thanks Blindsight! Are the time stamps messed up on it? I did make and upload this video a while back.
@@triggerbarPhD I saw the date on your velocity machine which states the year is 2017.
@Nobluffbuff lol. Okay yah I never updated that. Kind of like the old vcr 🤣😂
That was a great video Trigger Bar
Thanks Chris!!
Is it enough of a difference to make a difference? You decide. 😂 RIP Paul.
Amen.
Awesome to see new videos on the .460 Rowland!
I don't trust 200gr stuff to be as neat or else their projected velocities came from 6in barrels, not FNX 45's 5in barrels.
It’s possible that it’s 6” but I think it may just be a weak lot. I’ve got some more powerful rounds and even their FMJ is hotter so not really sure what happened here. But I’ve seen that with their 10mm too. They just sometimes dip in power…I’ve seen Buffalo bore do it too. Bad lots or something
@@triggerbarPhD FMJ would be better than Lehigh bullets if the overall length is shorter. Solid copper bullets may be nice and neat but may go as slow as heavier bullets, if the surface area of the bullet is longer/bigger then it comes into more contact with the barrel, more friction. 185gr and lighter/shorter bullets allow for more powder in the case with safer pressure levels. .460 Rowland with 185gr bullets have load data available which could achieve muzzle energies above 1000lbs.
At least with attaining velocities around 1200fps with 800lbs muzzle energy is low end .44 Magnum and still viable.
@saintsinningsword very true
I make 460 rowland vids in my Armory Playlist ▶️
The FN 460 Rowland comes with 2 different rate recoil springs, 1 for 45acp & 1 for the 460. Are you changing them out as needed OR does one of them actually work for all 3 calibers???
Great question and I should have included that. I only needed the softer recoil spring for the 45 acp, for the +p, 45 super and 460 Rowland I used the same, heavier spring.
Great video! I'm glad you didn't blow your hand off!😅
lol, me too!!!
What about the 450SMC? 😊
45 SMC and 45 Super are pretty much the same thing. I’m sure you know but didn’t one of them like trade mark it and so the other one is like the “open source” version. At any rate, all the tests I’ve seen the perform pretty similar.
@@triggerbarPhDConsidering what SMC stands for I’d say they were upset about the trademark 🤣
@jason_m_schmidt622 🤣😂 exactly!!
Man you’re easily pleased!! Underwood is saving on powder obviously, compare those same rounds by Buffalo Bore and Double Tapp and you’ll understand my statement.
I have compared them with Buffalo bore. In fact I got a split case with Buffalo bore. I have double tap on order but they are taking months. The point was choosing a bullet that is consistent at least across multiple of these cartridges. This was the only I could find that had the same bullet, same bullet weight for +p, super and 460 Rowland.
.40 cal..takes it! Speed of a 9 and force of a 45.. kidding of course, but that was the argument decades ago. IMO all calibers have improved with time. Great comparison 👍
Thanks my friend! Yah that’s the truth, they are all better and 9mm probably just went from not good enough to good enough and that’s a big difference 🤷♂️
Interesting screen name - do you have a background in philosophy?
Weird back story. The trigger bar was the first gun upgrade I did (in a Beretta) in my own and kind of ignited a love of guns for me. And I’m drawn to more philosophical gun usage, why this gun, or that gun or when would you want that caliber or this caliber. I’m an engineer and I do have a PhD so sort of? 🤣😂
🇺🇸💥🙏💥🇺🇸
Thanks my friend!!
"Extreme penetrator"? Those should be called "obscene penetrators"!!
Polar bears and beluga whales, beware!!
Interesting power comparison...thanks for the #s!
😂🤣😂🤣. Thanks Shasta!
I appreciate all the effort you put into this, and only leave this comment as a fan.
I think you lost the plot on this one. The question about effectiveness isn't about energy, it's about performance. 230gr hst at various velocities (pressures, from standard, +p, super, and Rowland) would have actually show bullet performance. When you take the same EXPANDING projectiles, at different velocities, you show the operational window of that projectile. The fps operational velocity of 230gr hst vs 185gr xtp would have made a much better video, where you could have seen actual gains and limits. When you used the non expanding projectiles, you failed to illustrate actual gains. The "external hollow point" underwood is just velocity dependent. The more velocity, the more disruption (and I understand that was one of the points you illustrated). But with expanding projectiles you get into the penetration/ expansion compromise, and the fragmentation limit. That is far more relative to the conversation of effectiveness imo (not to discount the work you did, and that I appreciate).
The FBI gel scoring protocol can be found in Brass Fletcher('s) website and will show that 16" of gel is the peak scoring, and past 18" is a fail (organic gel). That is for good reason. To maximize terminal effectiveness you want energy transfer. Illustrating how more energy is transferred with the two most popular projectiles would have made a much better video (one I would love to see). Good work as always, and I surely support your work.
Look forward to more testing
Thanks Dylan. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and insight. A couple of points on why this test. First it’s hard to find 45 super and 460 Rowland. It’s harder to find an overlap in cartridges that have the same bullet in all 3. Extreme penetrator and hard cast are almost the only ones I could find. I may be able to get an XTP hollow point one but it will be from different companies. Second, while for human and more animal targets the fbi testing is critical, I intend the 460 Rowland as a mostly bear defense round. Most sources I’ve read is about not having enough penetration to get through the bears skin, fat and bone to hit the vitals. Of course some have shown a 9mm to work but there are other examples of 10-15 rounds of 10mm and 44 mag all being found in the fat layers. In that case, penetration and energy are important. Hope that provides the weird context I should have provided in the video. I’ll do some more searching to see if I can get a better hollow point comparison!! Thanks again!
@@triggerbarPhD I appreciate the reply I I fully understand. Just to add, it may be different companies that load the xtp, but it's still the exact same Hornady xtp projectile, and documented, varying velocities. Something that is never illustrated, is how velocity effects the exact same projectile. The best demonstration you will ever see is standard pressure vs +p and barrel length. With the radically different velocities (100-200fps steps for a 230-185gr is pretty radical) you have a great opportunity to show that. Using bare gel and denim, and demanding a "pass" for both really will show how narrow the operational velocity window is. Xtp should have a wide window, but the hst may be more narrow. You should be able to find 185gr and 230gr xtp, but might need to find a hand loader for the hst. I love your content, and effort as always, and great full for it
@@dylanholbrook6239 great suggestions Dylan. Probably hand loading is going to be the way to show this best. My first 460 Rowland video I have some xtp’s in it and you are exactly right, going that speed they basically just come apart. I need to start adding denim to these tests as I know that makes a big difference especially with XTP bullets.
50gi laughs at your punny bullets
Hahahaha. Well, bigger but not more powerful!!
If that 460 Rowland can't even average 1300 fps from an FNX 45, the ammo company needs to lower their claims on the box. What was their test barrel? A 16" carbine? lol
Truth!!!!
120 year old… more modern 9mm Luger my … 😂
😂🤣
More modern in terms of speed needed to get these harder bullets to expand rapidly vs 45 auto that sometimes cant meet that expansion threshold thai applies also to 380, 38 spcl, etc.
@@jorgesolis9468 Statistically you are correct, in the sense that more 9mm Luger are shipped with a grain weight appropriate for a JHP.
In general nothing is keeping manufacturers to load lighter .45 ACP JHP projectiles that get to speeds needed for reliable expansion. But traditionalists clinging to the good old 230 grain are hampering that development.
In general, all cartridges today are 130 year old tech. The oh so modern 6.5 Creedmoor is almost a carbon copy of the 1894 6.5x55 Swede with higher chamber pressure 😂
@@nikos6220 I mean even light weight having 45 auto reliably reach supersonic and expansion threshold you have to be hitting 200 gr and lighter like the og +p gold dot
@@jorgesolis9468 yep, the 200 grain GD is a great example. But one thing to consider is that due to the size the velocity can be a bit lower than 9mm. And there is a unicorn bullet design in the HST that can even do it with a 230 😁. If barrier blindness is a consideration I would go with the 135 grain Underwood Xtreme Defender
i watch a video about the 450 smc round vs the 45 super and i have to say that i think the 450 smc is a little better then the 45 super.
That’s probably true. There are differences. Not as much as between +p and 460 Rowland but you are right.