NO CPC LIGHTING - WHAT TO DO IF THERE IS NO EARTH IN THE CIRCUITS - WHAT DO THE REGULATIONS SAY?

In this video from LearnElectrics, we will look at a frequently asked question about installations that have no cpc, or earth conductors in the lighting circuit wiring.
We will consider the options available to us and make references to the relevant Wiring Regulations and use BS7671 18th Edition to amendment number 2, the brown book.
There are lots of comments on social media about lighting circuits without a cpc, and much discussion at training centres and colleges as many older lighting installations were installed without a cpc.
The electrician tells us that a customer wants a lighting circuit extended but there is no cpc in the existing circuit. And they ask - what can I do?
It is not always as easy as just installing a new cpc. Perhaps the customer has just redecorated and is unwilling to have the walls messed with. They will ask if there is another way. Or it might be an almost impossible task to access the old wiring without some major rebuilding work.
So, in this video we will discuss the requirements and recommendations of the regulations.
This is video number 230 and to view all our videos type in LearnElectrics all one word into the TH-cam search bar.
Visit our TH-cam channel where we have many more videos on a wide range of electrical topics.

[@drunkinpiper]

Many thanks for a reminder of an important subject that is often overlooked.

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thank you, appreciated, Dave.

[@zed.kelectrical8741]

Thank you Dave.. clear and helpful as always.. well done mate 👍

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thanks very much, appreciated.

[@user-qi8tv2sj4m]

Just what I needed. Really good info at just the right time. Thanks pal.

[@learnelectrics4402]

Glad it helped and thank you for watching. Dave.

[@davidpatterson1574]

Thanks Dave-excellent video presentation-best wishes for Christmas and the new year-

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thanks, you too David. have a good seasonal break yourself. Dave.

[@brianhewitt8618]

Always a tricky one that without rewiring, class 2 accessories minimum or a rewire or walk away untill the customer wants it done properly, excellent as always Dave 👍

[@learnelectrics4402]

Yes, that is the third option and we should not be afraid of doing that if the customer will not acknowledge the electrician's professional standards. Dave.

[@michaelcostello6991]

Good point

[@lylewatts6370]

Yes a very good subject. Here we have to run anything new from a ground circuit no tying into the old stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[@learnelectrics4402]

That is my preferred method too with older systems. Thanks for watching.

[@michaelcostello6991]

But a class 2 light would be ok as mentioned above in comments ? Would that be correct. Would that be the cheapest way ?

[@suwitmoonsri2296]

This is great video, good topic with excellence explained. Thank you from Singapore.

[@learnelectrics4402]

Glad you enjoyed it, lots more on the website. Its about 20 years since I was last in Singapore. A beautiful country.

[@suwitmoonsri2296]

@learnelectrics4402 Thanks, and actually, I'm from Thailand, but I'm living and working as an electrician in the construction sector. Now I'm preparing for an exam for the licence, and I found your video, which helps me understand a lot more because in Singapore for electrical installation standards, most of them are adopted from BS 7671.

[@leeedwards3783]

Another great video. Thank you

[@learnelectrics4402]

Glad you enjoyed it, thank you for watching.

[@Sam-uy1ym]

Thanks very helpful 👍

[@learnelectrics4402]

Glad it helped and thank you for watching, appreciated,

[@robinpenny3193]

So I think the implied answer to the question posed, is that you could extend the lighting circuit if using non conductive accessories/fittings (Still as safe as the original circuit). Although this answer didn’t seem to be actually stated in the video.

[@learnelectrics4402]

No, that was in pre 14th Edition as stated in the video. the requirement now is to take the cpc to the switches and the ceiling roses even if not needed. The only exception is the pendulum cable from the rose to the lamp if that is all in plastic. Hope this helps and thanks for watching.

[@robinpenny3193]

@@learnelectrics4402 thanks for the the clarification.

[@hussmortada]

Hi Dave, can you do a video on installing smart thermostats? There is a big demand for those right now. Regards

[@learnelectrics4402]

Its now on the list. Thanks for the support. Dave.

[@hussmortada]

Cheers Dave!

[@michaelbarlow3686]

An excellent video and a scenario which I have encountered many times. The only comment I would make about non cpc vis a vis plastic fittings is what happens if the metal back box becomes live. The 2 screws holding the plate switch would also be live and could be touched accidentally during cleaning etc. Showing my age here but does anyone remember coming across a wooden backbox I'm not sure whether they were on sale or some electricians made them either way I came across a few in 1960's builds.

[@joshb9657]

You can put screw covers on the switches and an rcd

[@learnelectrics4402]

Oh yes, and bakelite switches too. Thanks for the input. Appreciated.

[@learnelectrics4402]

Absolutely.

[@alinili5569]

I think easiest option to use plastic / PVC. Screws and also screw caps

[@joshb9657]

@@alinili5569 where u getting plastic socket screws from?

[@Phantom-mk4kp]

Can you spur a new lighting circuit from a CPC protected ring?

[@brianhewitt8618]

If your referring to a circuit that has no cpc then Yes you can technically, adequately fused down of course.
This sinario would only be used when you need to add a light to a building that has no lighting, ie a shed. But in a property that has a lighting circuit as part of the installation then you should really rewire it if has no cpc or at a push you can add a separate cpc to each point but that can be just as much agg, so rewiring is a must, any add ons must be labelled

[@learnelectrics4402]

See Brian's great reply.

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thank you Brian, great cover, great support. Dave.

[@Benzknees]

On my two core lighting circuit, in the 1980s a metal cased light was added & the electrician ran a single core 1.5mm2 earth (above the ceiling, so protected from mechanical damage) from the nearest plug socket. Is that an acceptable way to provide an earth?

[@HW55]

No, definitely not !

[@Benzknees]

@@HW55 - Why?

[@learnelectrics4402]

Not acceptable. The cpc from the sockets is not part of the circuit from the lights. The circuits must be kept separate.

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thank you, great support, appreciated. Dave.

[@Benzknees]

@@learnelectrics4402 - Thanks, but what is the reason for this, given all the lighting/power earths end up being connected to the same earthing bar in the consumer unit/fuse box, and the same earthing sleeve around the incoming main

[@michaelcostello6991]

Can you use cpc from a different circuit. I assume this would not be allowed ?

[@learnelectrics4402]

The Regs expect each circuit to have its own Line, neutral and CPC. Hope this helps.

[@Phil-D83]

Add ground lines

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thanks for watching. Dave.

[@TheWebstaff]

Lol It's a video after my own heart.
"So yes you can and heres why, but its the same job as doing it properly. Rewire time."

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thanks for watching. Appreciated comments. Dave.

[@michaelcostello6991]

Please clarify if you can simply get away with using class 2 lighting fitting as suggested in comments below and not bother with an earth ??

[@learnelectrics4402]

The Regs state that all new circuits should have a cpc taken to the point of use, even if not used. For lighting, the Regs state that the cpc does not need to be taken past the ceiling rose and luminaire are class 2. Hope this helps.

[@joshb9657]

Class 2 equipment, RCD, switches with screw covers, warning sticker on board and note on certificate

[@learnelectrics4402]

Thanks for watching.

[@joshb9657]

@@learnelectrics4402 Thanks for making the videos, one of the best on TH-cam 👍