European Trains in New Jersey | River LINE
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มี.ค. 2024
- When you think of light rail in the United States, do you think of diesel trains that run on freight tracks? Probably not. But that's exactly what the River LINE in New Jersey is! Running between Camden and Trenton, this unique line has many cool features. My favorite? The Stadler GTW trains that are used on many regional train services in Europe.
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Hey Man! I’m actually an operator for the River Line. Thanks for taking a ride and for the great video!
You’re welcome! How do you like your job?
Funny seeing you here
@@RADZADproductions oh hello stranger
@@Thom-TRA I love my job! Being a bit of a rail fan since I was a little, it was kind of a dream to drive a train. But it’s an easy job, good pay and benefits. It does have a few negatives such as dealing with nasty passengers and bad drivers in Camden. But it’s a good company to work for and hopefully a Segway into heavy rail someday in the future.
@@nutcrackerz348 It did look like smoking on board is a bit of an issue. I saw that in the clip used... Ditto here in Edmonton. Open drug use has unfortunately become common since about 2018...
So that GTW Riverline is basically a modern day interurban rail.
Pretty much!
Just a diesel interurban
Interurbans in the US in the early 20th century _were_ trolley cars, a bit more heavy duty perhaps, but definitely what we would call light rail today. See, e.g., William Middleton, "The Interurban Era".
@@nesgamerboy690 The central power unit section module can be replaced with an all electric or diesel/electric hybrid:
Google: "Stadler GTW Articulated Railcars"
The River LINE as an interurban definitely provides a crucial connection for the Delaware River communities! I first learned about River LINE in 2010 when I visited Bordentown. Bordentown is one of my favorite places in NJ. Bordentown is a cool colonial suburb, Bordentown's first recorded European settlement was made in 1682, and then it was renamed after Joseph Borden in 1717! Bordentown is filled with transportation and revolutionary history! In 1734, Joseph Borden started a stage line and packet service between Bordentown and Philly. In the 1830s, the Camden and Amboy Railroad (NJ's first railroad) you mentioned used the John Bull locomotive which is now in the Smithsonian National Museum of American History! And In 1834, the Delaware and Raritan Canal (which helped transport anthracite coal to NYC during much of the 19th and early 20th centuries) had their Lock 1 at Bordentown.
Bordentown was once the home of many revolutionaries. Patience Lovell Wright, the US's first female sculptor, was creating wax busts in King George's court in England. Patriots like Francis Hopkinson (a signer of the US Declaration of Independence) and Thomas Paine (who authored Common Sense and The American Crisis) also lived in Bordentown. Thomas Paine's home in Bordentown between 1783 until his death in 1809 was the only house he ever bought. Besides American patriots, Bordentown was also the home of Napoleon's older brother Joseph Bonaparte and Joseph's daughter Charlotte who did landscape paintings while in NJ. But more importantly, Bordentown was home to NJ's first free school by Clara Barton in 1852, who later founded the American Red Cross in 1881!
Had I known all these things I might’ve gotten off! Next time
The little train you saw at 9:42 is the Princeton Dinky! When the Camden and Amboy opened its original Trenton-New Brunswick line in 1839, completing the first rail connection between Philadelphia and New York Harbor, the line was located along the east bank of the Delaware and Raritan Canal, about one mile from downtown Princeton. The American Civil War brought high demand for both passenger and freight travel along the line, so the railroad built a new line from Trenton to New Brunswick, removing the curve toward Princeton that was slowing trains down. A new alignment (now the NEC) opened on November 23, 1863, but some passenger trains continued to use the old line until the Princeton Branch opened on May 29, 1865, three days after the end of the Civil War. The line was electrified in 1933. Albert Einstein, who once lived in Princeton, used to enjoy sitting at Princeton Junction and watching the trains go by. More than once, he employed trains to explain the practical effects of his General Theory of Relativity.
In 2006, Princeton University announced its intention to construct a new arts center, and this led the line to be truncated 460 ft (140 m) to the south of its former 1918 stationhouse in 2014. The stationhouse became the Dinky Bar & Kitchen in 2016 as part of a 2012 revised plan. But once the Arrow IIIs retire, the Princeton Branch will become a transitway.
Man is the dinky high on my bucket list! I’ve been to NJ what feels like a million times, yet most of it feels unexplored to me.
And knowing Einstein was a foamer makes me feel so much smarter.
@@Thom-TRAmine too
Princeton Junction is also like the #1 railfanning spot in the US. Gets lots of traffic and Amtrak runs Acelas through at their full 150mph. Probably the best spot in the US to catch an Acela going its full 150mph speed (soon to be 165mph with the new Avelias).
Plus great restaurants on Palmer Square, do an outing to Princeton several times in the spring and summer.
The old Camden and Amboy line ran through Heightstown, not near Princeton.
The Princeton branch line was built not only for passengers, but also to bring coal to a campus central heating plant, which has been replaced by a parking structure or indoor swimming pool.
I think the concept of the riverline is such a great idea. There are lots of areas in NJ that could benefit from this “light rail/commuter rail” concept. There actually is a proposal to create a similar line that connects to the riverline in Camden, and runs into south jersey. Many central/south jersey towns could benefit from a similar concept, with the many freight tracks that run throughout the area.
Are those over the rights of way of the old Seashore lines?
@@Thom-TRAsome could be, there’s also the southern and freehold secondary in ocean and Monmouth county, along with various right of ways up north that could be used to extend the newark and Hudson Bergen light rail.
I think you might be talking about the Glassboro-Camden line, I am not sure what its doing now but it does face opposition and some of the politicians want Bus Rapid Transit instead. Would be great to just head over to Glassboro and catch a train.
“The seats are made from a cat scratching post” 🤣
It was bordering on uncomfortable lol
I've heard that NJ politiciabs approved the River Line in South Jersey because it was building the Hudson-Bergen and Newark Lines in North Jersey.
Thom is kinda doing is own version of the @Milesintransit "Cheapest Way" series with this journey
“Okay, we now have a railway alignment, should it be a regional rail system or a light rail system?”
NJT: “yes”
Pretty much
I grew up riding this train
Only now do I appreciate how good it is
Nice! Good memories?
@@Thom-TRA Oh yes! My family would always get on at Pennsauken- Rt 73. Most times we would ride to Burlington Town Centre, get ice cream, and ride back.
Honestly, the PATCO train was an even bigger part of my childhood: we would always take it into Central Philly and go to Reading Terminal Market.
I now live in North Jersey: I like being close to more transit, but I hope to ride these trains again, someday.
I love taking the river line back home from Philly with my bike, bordentown at sunset is gorgeous
Oh I bet that’s such a nice day trip
There is a planned extension of this that would head into South Jersey called the Glassboro-Camden line.
I find it funny the display on your car said Walnut Street at 9:51 when Walnut Street isn't even a stop on the NEC, it's a stop on the Montclair-Boonton Line! Camden's City Hall you saw in the background at 2:23 was designed by Byron Edwards and Alfred Green, architectural partners who moved from Philadelphia to Camden in 1928, and its materials were supplied by the Otis Elevator Company. The south face of the tower bears the engraving "In a dream I saw a city invincible", from the poem "I Dream'd in a Dream" by Walt Whitman which is the current motto of Camden. Camden was the last place Whitman lived, and his house is near the PATCO Broadway station! Something to note is that when the River LINE first opened, it didn't actually have a connection with the Atlantic City Line, and so it was a major criticism until planning began for a connection at Pennsauken in 2007, and the Pennsauken Transit Center opened in 2013.
In Camden, besides its connection with PATCO, the River LINE also serves the Rutgers Camden campus, the Adventure Aquarium, the Battleship New Jersey Museum (the Battleship New Jersey earned more battle stars for combat actions than the other three completed Iowa-class battleships and was the only US battleship used to provide gunfire support during the Vietnam War), and an Amphitheatre/theatre complex for concerts and Broadway theatrical productions! Campbell's has their headquarters in Camden as it was started in South Jersey in 1869 by Joseph A. Campbell! There used to be a riverfront baseball stadium next to the Ben Franklin Bridge for the former Camden Riversharks called Campbell's Field with some great views, but the team ceased operations in 2015 (the stadium was 35 million in loans from banks and different agencies) and was demolished in 2018. In 2011, Campbell's Field was where the US national rugby league team achieved qualification for the 2013 Rugby League World Cup, booking the nation's first ever Rugby League World Cup appearance!
Not the first time I’ve encountered a broken sign on an NJT train 😂
Campbell's Field was such a gem. It provided incredible views of the Ben Franklin Bridge (and frequent passing PATCO trains)
I do think its worth noting that the Riverline GTW's are significantly shorter than normal GTW's. The carriages are much shorter, presumably to allow street running and tram operation in Camden. But apart from that it really operates more like a European regional line, or perhaps more accurately a Tram-Train. The Netherlands used to have a Tram-Train line between Gouda and Leiden with the Gouwelijn. It was planned to be connected to a brand new tram system in Leiden but that tram system got cancelled. But besides that another good comparison would be Randstad Rail line 3 and 4 between the Hague and Zoetemeer, which is also a tram-train. Several European cities have tram-train systems like these.
Sadly the RijnGouwelijn never made it past Alphen a/d Rijn. I’m from Leiden, I really wanted it the street running section to happen.
8:25 never figured I'd see my tiny hometown show up in a video about trains in NJ! I'd love to see this concept come to fruition
What West Michigan town are you from?
Plainwell!
I've been enamored with the old Interurban lines we used to have. This would be a cool modern re-imagining
I love seeing my hometown of Burlington, NJ getting some rep!
Just to tell you how impressed I am with your video editing and the depth of the information you provide in your voiceovers
Thank you :) hope you’re having a great day!
I live near this line, and when I see a train I always think "what's the point" and "they sure are ugly." You've given me a new appreciation of the River Line, and good to have the info on what type of train that it is. It reminds me of SEPTA's Norristown High Speed line - have you seen that? Third rail, but the cars look similar, although not as big. And if someone needs to get from Trenton to Philly or vice versa after the River Line stops running, SEPTA's Trenton line runs until almost midnight. But not as cheap.
Ive seen the NTHSL, but I didn’t have enough time to ride it last time I was in Philly. Oh darn, I’ll have to come back.
@@Thom-TRA Yes, come back! After the NHSL, take the 101 trolley to Media - it leaves from the same terminal as the NHSL, the 69th St. Transportation Center. Wikipedia describes it as one the country's last interurban lines. It has a good mix of urban street running and dedicated right of way through leafy, woodland countryside, in some ways like the River Line. Unlike SEPTA's other trolleys, it has pantographs rather than trolley poles. Happy travels!
@@jm-bv1wh I took the 102 when I was in Philly two weeks ago!
@@Thom-TRA Okay, great - no need for the 101! 😀
@@jm-bv1wh I would still recommend the 101 even after a ride on the 102! 😀 The Media section terminates right in the middle of the street (without any buffers or protection) and is a great place for a rest stop with a variety of restaurants and small shops. There's also a nice wooded park section that the trolley runs through just outside Media.
So cool to see you riding the River Line, one of my very favorite transit lines!
Back when i was a kid, i liven in nj when the line was new. I would ride with my family on weekends all the way to Camden to see the aquarium or to continue into Philadelphia. Great memories!
In fact, i think this was one of the systems that got me into transit in the first place.
I agree, more cities could use a system sort of like this, using small multiple units on exiting freight lines that can also continue into downtown. I think the FRA regulatins on light trains like the GTA/Flirt/Kiss are loosening so which would allow new systems to run without the annoying schedule restraints that the river line has.
Loosened restrictions would be great. Stadler made a wise move building a factory here, I think we’ve only just seen the beginning.
The goat of metros：a flexible railway with high speeds, capacities and compatible with standard railway infrastructure, light, easily accessible due to small stations or even tram stop style stations.
Tried the River Line once from Camden to Trenton. It took 3x longer than to drive a car to Trenton. Never been on it again.
These unelectrified little branch lines using smaller equipment used to be pretty common in a lot of countries before the closures of the 20th century. In Britain they were often called "light railways" and there was a act of parliament to ease the construction of them, making them easier to build than mainline railways. In Germany these were called Kleinbahnen or Lokalbahnen (small railways/local railways) and in France and Belgium "chemins de fer vicinaux" (close-by or country railways). They usually used steam dummies and were often narrow gauge.
One interesting surviving example of this is Line 16 of the Cologne/Bonn light rail system. It runs thirty-something km between the two cities through grain fields and meadows, it's electrified with DC power incompatible with the German network, and it handles freight from several large chemical plants (though with separate tracks for passengers and freight).
In the US, uniquely, most of these "little railways" were electrified and called "electric railways" (as opposed to the mainline "steam railroads"). The sum of electrified trackage in the US at the height at the beginning of the century was likely not surpassed by the sum those in the entire rest of the world for several decades.
Even some lines in the mountain passes of the Pacific Northwest were electrified!
Yeah, we also had something similar in Denmark. Here they were called "Privatbaner" aka "private railways" even if it was usually just owned by the local government and maybe a local industry. 13 such lines still exist in Denmark to this day, owned and usually operated by the regional government and their own agency, rather than owned by the State and run by the state railways or a private contractor. In modern tongues though they're referred to as "Lokalbaner" or "Local railways" and they usually have a much better reputation amongst the public than the mainline railways, due to greater reliability, and better integration with other transit services like buses, and a greater consideration for the needs of locals. 1 of these Lokalbaner, the "Nærumbanen" in the Copenhagen suburbs, uses Siemens/Düwag RegioSprinter DMU's very similar to the trains on the Riverline. And another Lokalbane, Odderbanen from Aarhus to Odder, has been electrified and integrated into the Aarhus Light rail system as the L2 line. A tram train route like the River Line.
Hands down the coolest light rail in the USA- I can’t wait to try this someday! Thanks for the tour and the history. As always your maps are the best
St. Louis and San Francisco are some of my other favorites! Hopefully someday soon I can add Montgomery County to that list. Praying lol
@@Thom-TRA absolutely😁 I forgot about St Louis. Will the purple line be classified as an interburban? I kinda think it could be!!?
A sort of unelectrified tram train system
Awesome!
As others have said, a great way to bring legacy interurban infrastructure into the 21st century much like what japan has managed to do in a few places
It’s like that regional metro idea that was floating around a few years ago but perhaps more feasible
Thank you for teaching us all about transit we didn’t even know we didn’t know and now we do!!! So awesome!!!
NJT always has quite the eclectic mix of train car types! You get all kinds of interesting stuff!
2:38 mans just casually smoking on the train
Unfortunately this has become common on many rail transit vehicles in the greater Philly metro area since the pandemic started. I wonder if this has also happened in other cities.
another good one, Thom. thanks for the commentary.
Thank you for sharing this!
You’re welcome!
Used to ride the River Line frequently. They do late night service Saturday only with trains leaving Trenton and Camden at 11:59pm.
Oh yeah you’re right. Wish it was every day though.
@@Thom-TRA Same! they do a cool express run weeknights after 9, and an abbreviated run to Burlington South as well to squeeze as much out before the overnight freight goes online. Love riding that line when I visit NJ.
Fascinating! Great video!
Thank you!
I think the US could have more hybrid rail systems, especially in Chicago's West of O'Hare suburbs
As a former commuter along the line, I've seen both the equipment and ridership deteriorate in the 8 years I've worked in Florence and lived in West Philadelphia. Thanks to the state of New Jersey giving companies massive tax breaks to move to these brand new warehouse along the line which helped ridership in the first ten years, however as the companies was realizing the RiverLine could not sustain their workforces - especially the second and third shift teams - all those companies stopped supporting the line and encouraged hiring those with personal transit. The deteriorating homeless and drug situation around Walter Rand Transportation Center also was not helping as several high profile assaults and robberies made the area unsafe.
By the time i left my company in 2021, 95% of the workforce along the RiverLine drove to work or used Uber/Lyft
That is really sad. I think we need to move to further separate the freight and passenger trains for higher frequencies and later service.
@@Thom-TRA The thing is PTC has the ability to do that..... Good luck getting the freight roads to play nice to do it.
Why do you think SEPTA had to physically separate from CSX where possible to keep that from happening
I was at the RiverLINE's opening, it was a great day for South Jersey's travel options. Especially since adding connections to the Atlantic City Line at Pennsauken, it makes trips to NYC from SJ much easier (so long as one is coming back around 8PM). Aside from run time, one large issue the line faces is constant dropped trips from "equipment issues" exacerbated by the 30-min headways. If NJT and Alstom could get maintenance under control (plus things like smoking as mentioned above), it could be a big draw for ridership.
My favorite fun fact is that before the RiverLINE branding, it was called the Southern NJ Light Rail Transit System, or "SNJLRTS" for short, which is just fun to say. This name still exists on some maps in Philadelphia stations.
I wonder if infrastructure updated could ever get it up to a train every 10 minutes?
@@Thom-TRA How nice that would be! Though, I won't hold my breath for that one 😂
This model looks similar to the one we have on the Biel-Täuffelen-ins line (operator. ASM, Aare Seeland mobile). It's the first line worldwide that used Stadler GTWs. The river line model's front is a bit less edgy and it uses a diesel power pack instead of the overhead wires used on the BTi line.
I need to do a Switzerland trip again someday. Sometimes I stare at the map for hours and dream of the places I want to go and the trains I want to take.
I commuted on the River Line from Burlington to Trenton for years. I loved it, relaxing in the am and the pm.
Commuting by train is the best!
Thom that's a great ride!
[5:35] NJ River LINE clearly is part of the US Railway Network!
I love riding river lime. I love going thru Botdentoen outside of Trenton when it make S curves.
Thom, yes, NJT Comet II's, IV's, and V's are still around but they are going to be replaced along with the Arrow III's by self-propelled Mutlilevel III cars I say within the next 5 to 10 years.
Interesting seeing NJT basically pulling a DB. multi-levels are basically an American version of the famous German Dosto cars, and they introduced an EMU based on the Dosto cars in Germany in recent years. Double decker EMU might let NJT run even bigger trains, I think the 9 car multi-level consists are already the highest capacity trains in the US. Chopping the ALP-46 off the front would let them run 10 double decker cars or more on express trains as their bigger stations can support more than 10 cars, though the counterpoint being their locals stop at trains where only like 3-4 cars fit on the platform.
The Comets isn't going anywhere. They're the backbone of the Atlantic City and other diesel operations, and can be used with any power.
As for the Arrows, a 12 car set can still out seat a ten car multilevel consist and out accelerate a 9 car comet set with a ALP46A for power (but it's close, and proven). Those multilevel power cars have allot to prove, but they can't bump the existing locomotive hauled sets.
It'll just make train assignments in New York Penn easier; outside of specific runs that needs specific equipment (Bay Head, Hackettstown or WORM runs) anything that comes in can be turned anywhere
This is a refreshingly positive take on the river line which I totally agree with as someone who has ridden this about 15 times over the years. Some people say it's slow but to me 34 miles in an hour for an interurban is quite fast..another criticism I hear is that it doesn't go anywhere worthwhile, which I think is a stupid opinion. The Achilles heel of the river line of course is what you mentioned, that it closes early due to freight.
I wonder what would be necessary to gain enough political pressure to convince the freight companies to let them operate later
I hope they did something about those trains being bogged down in Camden during events. I took it to a concert in Camden years ago and it was stuck in traffic for an hour afterwards. I think standard heavy rail with RR gates in Camden and through service to NYC would have been better. No Trenton transfer, no sweating out the connection--especially the only AM connection that gets you to Manhattan for a normal workday--and no early "curfew" due to incompatibility with freight.
I agree there is room for improvement
Perfect video!!! I agree with you about such modern version of interurban systems are needed in the US. As I know, there is one more "hybrid LRT" under construction - it is "Silver line" in Dallas. Interesting that NJT Rivel line is the first modern "hybrid LRT" in the USA and the only located in the east state, others are located in western states - Texas and California.
I think it may have to do with the fact that there are relatively more “legacy” systems remaining in the Eastern US.
It a pretty cool line. Will be interesting to see the service is coordinated with the Camden Glassboro Line.
I enjoyed the video👍👍
Thanks!!
My hometown of Omaha has a BNSF line that doesn’t get a whole ton of trains, but does have the California Zephyr from here to Lincoln (the capital and 2nd largest city in Nebraska), so I think it would make sense to have a regional rail line from Burlington station where the amtrak station is to Lincoln
Yeah and the distance between Omaha and Lincoln isn’t even too bad
@@Thom-TRA Lincoln is just over 40 miles, so it’s a pretty doable distance. My father used to work in Lincoln, and I have a professor at my university here who lives by Lincoln, so I can tell you there is a good amount of demand for travel between the two, and it kinda sucks there’s only one option by train at like the middle of the night, and our republican dominated (though officially non-partisan) legislature doesn’t have an interest in expanding that right now. I love drawing train maps, and this corridor was the first line I drew for my Omaha regional rail map.
We need more of this in the U.S.
As a resident of the State of New Jersey, I haven't riden the River Line. I have riden the Newark Light Rail and the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail. The cars are made by Kinki-Sharyo of Japan. I'm 65, and it costs me $1.05 to ride it. Seniors over 62 pay half fare with a New Jersey Transit Reduced Fare Card on trains, buses and light rail. 😊
That’s a nice perk! I’ve been on HBLR (video coming soon) but not yet on the Newark subway.
@@Thom-TRA I used to ride Newark Subway as a teenager in the 90s when it had PCCs and tokens. I haven't rode it since I now live in the Bay Area. Love your videos. The Riverline, which I haven't rode, seems a little bit like the SMART train here in the Bay Area, which I have rode. I think it has the same type of trains?
@@jpg3702 The trains are a little bit different! SMART uses trains built by Nippon Sharyo, a Japanese company.
@@Thom-TRA Thanks for the clarification. That rings a bell now. I'm not great at remembering all the trains, but I am learning. At times SMART runs on the streets, but if I recall mostly it does not. I'm excited to maybe see some "relatives" to the SMART trains on my first trip to Japan in May. I remember learning that you lived partly in Japan. So cool!
@@jpg3702 have a great trip! Where are you going ?
Thanks, nice video. A good example of a city that is absolutely covered in lightly utilised or disused freight lines is Winnipeg. Building out a light rail network there seems a nobrainer but they've decided not to do that.
Thanks for the generous gift!
The River Line concept is a very good concept, however it would be even better if the FRA were to relent on its restriction on lighter passenger units (like the GTWs) sharing tracks concomitantly with the freight trains. Especially now that the big Class 1 roads have installed PTC (Positive Train Control) on their locomotives, which would catch any out-of-control train before it wreaks havoc.
Fun fact: PSNJ (Public Service of New Jersey) once had an interurban trolley line between Camden and Trenton, running parallel to what is the River Line today. It was part of a continuous chain of trolley car lines which ran from Camden to Jersey City and even further north to the NJ-NY border. However, no through trips were possible as the company who built the line chose a 5-foot gauge for compatibility with the Camden urban lines, while PSNJ's main network was of 4' 8.5" gauge. And just to chuck another spanner in the works another trolley operator in the Trenton area (Pennsylvania & New Jersey Traction Co.) ran on "Pennsylvania trolley car gauge" (5' 2.5") - the three lines met in Trenton city center and at a couple of places shared the same streets using mixed-gauge track.
Oh I totally agree that the legal restrictions are crazy. And sometimes I wonder what purpose they even serve. It’s not like the US railways are globally renowned for their safety record.
I’ve heard of this train and it looks cool. I like how it looks like a light rail even though it’s diesel powered with a short train car in between and has an e-bell. I even like how it’s called the river line.
Lots to like!
@@Thom-TRA You bet!
Great video of a very interesting line! Thom, you're convincing me that battery powered trains are an important part of the rail transit future. We get the quietness and acceleration of electric power, without the expense and unsightliness of overhead wires or the pedestrian danger of third rail!
Now, all we need is the green interior lighting of the Peter Pan bus and we have perfection! 😉
Though I would push government officials to electrify much more!
Battery power might be an ok compromise if it means getting some politicians onboard. But we see similar solutions already in most of Europe using overhead wires fully, or for part of the trip. We just call them tramtrains here
. @Thom-TRA I agree completely. I would also push government officials to encourage transit oriented development more too. I'm proud that our local LA Metrolink Antelope Valley Line has a new station on the outskirts of Santa Clarita that is a hub of transit oriented development--there are condos and businesses near the station. The line (at least as far as the new station) has a new schedule that is regional rail oriented. I'll keep you informed how it develops.
Thanks
Thank you for the generous gift!
Of course one has seen Miles' various foamy split-ticketing adventures on this route but it takes your more reflective presentation to appreciate how it sits in the broader landscape - it's a delight to see how you've stimulated everyone to quote their favourite secondary system in the comments so here are some of mine: DLR/Croydon Tramlink for reuse of ROW, Frauenfeld-Wil for street running and Kassel for diesel power - Kassel vibes went up to 11 with your very reasonable ideas for Grand Rapids.
Must say though that NJT missed an opportunity - the ho-hum livery and the cat-friendly seating scream design by road user, the kind that buys a silver car or a white van with resale value in mind - FW's 'red giraffe' look turns a hazard warning into a bold statement.
Anyway, job well done here - much positivity unleashed all round - it's a privilege to see the world through your lens - thank you so much \m/
The design is certainly… outdated to say the least. I’ve always wanted to go to Kassel: in part to see the Randstad rail tram I grew up riding run in diesel mode!
Giraffe? I meant zebra
🦓 \m/
Sometimes long slow travel is what you want though. Kind of the APPEAL of train travel in the first place. Yeah, at one time it was the only way, yeah you could argue it no longer technically NEEDS to be a way-- but everybody kinda WANTS to do it sometimes. Just sit and stare out a window, get lost in thought, feel the cars rock and the wheels on the ties, and just trust somebody else to get ya there for awhile.
I agree! Though I do think for rail to be competitive there always needs to be a fast option. Nobody should be “forced” onto a slow, relaxed trip. They should choose it!
You're in my old stomping ground. I grew up in South Jersey, though I left to move to NYC in the mid-60s. (Yes, I'm old!) I love your channel.
How was the transition from Southern NJ to NYC?
It was a shock, but lightened by the fact that I was then working on cruise ships as a musician. Once my cruise ship experience was ended I moved back to NJ, then to VA, then to SC, where I am now.
@@SchneiderGeorge what do you play??
I played piano, sometimes solo, sometimes with a band. My first years on ships were with Holland America, so your Dutch background interests me. I was the Netherlands one time. Amsterdam was fascinating.
Ever ridden a TurboTrain? I rode one between NYC and Boston eons ago... and OMG was it loud! Not to mention that, when it pulled into the cavern beneath Penn Station, it filled the air with superheated exhause fumes. I call it a tech fail.
I’m surprised they let the diesel trains in there!
@@Thom-TRA I'm just thankful I survived riding the escalator up into the fireball!
Stadler gtw from wish
lol
Blud called the older GTW design a wish GTW ☠️
@@Maunico0809 💀
These trains fulfill the "missing" middle service that has long since disappeared from North American railway networks, Regional Inter-urban Trams... I love your idea for Grand Rapids and would love to see a separate video made on that idea but you know.. expanded! I also love the idea of Battery Electric Multiple Units being used instead of diesel or even hydrogen... Great Western Railway in the UK just unveiled their rehabbed old diesel to battery conversion project and it can go an amazing distance without charging, like 85 miles at 60 mph which is pretty awesome. Especially when recharging is done in under 5 minutes at station end stops... That's the cheapest, easiest and most eco-friendly version of how to bring regional rail to the masses if you ask me!
I know there were talks here about using those Vivarail trains for a “pop up metro” on this side of the pond but it’s been awful quiet the last few years…
GR video will be in the works! Eventually…
@@Thom-TRA I look forward to the day one of the transit advocates on this platform does a deep dive on the impact of Adrian Shooter - he is much missed \m/
Thank you so much for this fascinating video ! I rode on the River line when it was very new, and thoroughly enjoyed the “European” experience. The Stadler units are great, though quite why NJT chose that upholstery is hard to understand !
I was amused to see the arriving service from NYC at Trenton, which was a Bombardier built bi-level train, it wouldn’t have been a long wait ! Those single level cars are surely on their last legs, having been in service for many years now. Anyway, glad you had a good ride to my all time favourite City, NYC ! Many thanks.
You really have been everywhere! And we share a favorite city :)
You really have been everywhere! And we share a favorite city :)
@@Thom-TRA yes, I have been very fortunate !
1:19 Im actually a mechanic fot those very trains. Generally they're great to work on, especially compared to our older LINT41's. The separate powerpack doesn't just reduce noise, but also makes the engine+generator very easy to reach from almost all sides
The Arriva SPURTs? Nice!
I've never heard many complaints about them.
Wow, never knew about this system. Thanks for sharing it with us Thom!
Similar systems are found in germany in some cities as well. There are some "Überland-Straßenbahnen" (Interurban-trams?) left, for example in the Rhein-Neckar-Triangle Mannheim-Ludwigshafen-Heidelberg. But some more modern approches are found in Kassel and Zwickau. Zwikau has a meter gauge tram network. On some routes they laid down a third rail, which allows regular mainline DMUs, the Regioshuttles to use the tram network for a better connection between the city center and the surroundings. In Kassel they run specially modified trams on a few electric and diesel lines into the surrounding countryside, branded as Regiotram. They use the mainlines as well.
But the most advanced system has to be in Karlsruhe, where they expanded the tram network massively by fitting the tram for mainline operation. They run far away from the city of Karlsruhe on mainline tracks. Kind of your proposal for Grand Rapids, but supersized. Shows how well deliberate your idea is.
Karlsruhe and Zwickau are on the top of my list for “trams” that I want to check out someday. Have been for years. To me, the icing on the cake in Zwickau is that the trains run internationally to CZ.
@@Thom-TRA I totally forgot about the international trains from Zwickau. I visited the city once, when I was on a daytrip during a week long holiday in Berlin. The streetrunning Regioshuttles were such a cool idea for me. They found a cheap and fast solution to massively improve connections between the 2 systems.
I wasn't able to visit Karlsruhe in like 20 years and it is like 150 km away. Haven't seen the new citytunnel yet. If you are around, give me a call. ;-)
1:43 - The cost is the same as a one-zone fare on an NJ Transit bus. A bus ride Camden to Trenton is .. .. 8 or 9 zones? I think the one zone fare cost may be carried over from the light rail service in Newark where that fare is like an in-city bus.
Of the three NJ Transit light rail services, I think this is the longest distance.
I use the river line somewhat frequently. It's a good train
Yay a video about a line that has the first ever Stadler’s in the US!
I didn’t realize they were the first but that makes sense!
@@Thom-TRADART in Dallas has them too
New Jersey Transit Trains Are Awesome Great Service😊
I took this to visit a relative when they lived in South Jersey near a station. It was so cool riding right through the center of those neating looking towns on the NJT River Line.
The River Line is an amazing concept. I wish we could get such a service on our River Line serving the West Shore of the Hudson Rivr communities many of which still have the bones of walkeable traditional development that would be well served by rail also the whole corridor used to be double-track so more double-track sections and sidings could be added to allow passenger trains to pass the many freights that use the route.
Maybe FLIRTs will be the answer as I believe they are FRA compliant. Great idea with Grand Rapids.
I think with a lot of North American cities you could do better with this kind of system for less money than light rail, and then pair it with high quality integrated feeder bus service making the stations "pulse hubs."
aayyy a fellow dutchie, and yeah lots of GTWs though recently they're being either elctrifeid where the diesel power plant is replaced by a pantograph or being replaced by newer stadler FLIRT units.
Wat is er recent geëlektrificeerd behalve de spoorlijn naar Herzogenrath? Volgens rijden op de meeste GTW lijnen nog altijd GTWs.
@@Thom-TRA Denk dat hij het traject Zwolle-Almelo bedoelt maar daar reden DM’90 treinen. En op de Maaslijn zijn ze nu net begonnen met elektrificatie maar dat gaat nog tot 2027 duren.
@@duploman0003 tja, de Maaslijn, wat zullen we daarover zeggen. Ik hoop dat het ze voor 20207 lukt.
@@Thom-TRA Ik hoop het ook… Eerst zou het dit jaar klaar zijn maar nu 2027, denk ook niet dat ze dat halen.
Its a nice line but with the increasing need for additional rail capacity I think that it needs to be brought heavy rail that along with a rebuilt section from Boardentown to Perth Amboy could provide redundancies to the NYC to Philly route. Also needs an extension to the west Trenton Airport
Wow, 20 years on the River line. Impressive.
They grow up so fast
A bit surprising was the reference to Conrail. I’m assuming Norfolk Southern chose to abide by the earlier agreement.
Conrail still exists and owns the line the River Line runs on. Conrail is responsible for the freight service there.
I came over from London to see the line a few days after it opened. Doesn’t seem like twenty years ago.
Wow, that is some dedication!
We need more trains like this across the country connecting major cities
Not necessarily connecting major cities, just providing service around cities. High speed and intercity rail are better for connecting major cities.
If i remember correctly most of the route runs on what used to be the PRR Bordentown Subdivision.
That’s correct!
The Atlanta area should consider a similar system for, e.g., the long-ballyhooed Atlanta-Athens "Brain Train" line. While their "Beltline" effort to convert disused RR rights-of-way to walk and bike paths is laudable, it really did nothing to alleviate any commuter traffic.
The point of the BeltLine though is to eventually all become a train.
@@Thom-TRA Wow, I hadn't heard that. Is it supposed to be a trolley system, like in downtown, or light rail? (Also curious as to where the stations will be.)
I’d also like to point out that DART in Dallas Texas operates the same type
They may look very similar but they’re actually not quite the same. DART trains are electric. If you’re talking about the Silver Line, those aren’t in service yet, but will be a Stadler FLIRT, which is a similar but slightly different train!
Thank you for covering this interesting element of our state's transportation. There have been several documents and debates somewhere on the web on an expansion further down to Glassboro on the Riverline, hopefully it happens!
I generally support any expansion!
The river line is a regional light rail line. No too different from say South Shore in Indiana or the REM that is open/ing in the Montreal region. All different but they combine varying degrees of grade separation with sections on dedicated rights of way, some street running, some elevated or underground. Line 5 in Toronto, while not a regional rail line also has these characteristics. It’s also common on many lines in Europe.
I have heard terms like regional light rail, express metro, or express tram, depending on the rolling stock mostly.
It’s quite different from both the South Shore Line and REM in a lot of ways though, especially since REM is an automated metro.
Good video! For that mockup of the proposed regional rail service for West Michigan, I would have extend the Grand Rapids to Holland line to Muskegon, Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo line to South Bend, Indiana, and I would have extended the regional rail line north to Ludington and Manistee, also for a small correction for the Byron Center stop , it's Wayland , Byron Center is just northwest of Wayland and the stop on that line should be called Wayland/Dorr/ Byron Center
That’s way too long a name. Just call it Byron Center, it’s the largest population center.
Holland to Muskegon is way too much of a detour. And I don’t see a reason to run a train to Ludington. There’s nowhere to stop along the way and the destinations would never draw enough regular riders to ever justify the construction costs.
I don't agree with the Ludington thing, they're some stops along the route, with Newaygo and Baldwin being popular with campers, kayakers/ canoers, and river tubers during the spring and summer months
@@zacharycleary3692 and those outdoor activities really are much easier to do with a car. Given the distances and the sparse population I just really don’t think it would be worth investing the resources. I’m proposing an urban rail system, something like commuter rail or Amtrak would be better for that corridor.
Oh yeah ,wishful thinking
@@zacharycleary3692 I’m glad you like the idea though! I do think the Coopersville & Marne should be extended back to Muskegon for
I've only ridden the River Line from Walter Rand to the Aquarium (pretty nice, owned by the same family as Dollywood and Kentucky Kingdom), but seeing more of its interurban mid-section, it confirms my thought of a "Trenton" Subway from Burlington that continues to West Trenton/Mercer Airport, with potential to extend to Lambertville (across from New Hope) or just one stop north to a hospital that I feel is in a position that is just too close to the existing SEPTA station and too important for proposed NJT West Trenton service-and the best way to connect to the West Trenton Line(s) and that hospital would just be to serve Mercer Airport anyway-could also run the 608 to Washington Run State Park instead of the airport (maybe a few busses a day to Lambertville to connect to 9-5 jobs in Trenton)
I like that idea!
I think San Diego also does this on both Sprinter and the Orange line of the trolley network
Sprinter is very similar! Just used trains by a different manufacturer
God, I love Interurbans. I wish we had more of these regional/light rail combos in North America
It’s not too late to bring them back
Another awesome video, Sir Thom!
On an unrelated topic (The thought just hit me a couple minutes ago), I caught an old video last night of you filming the new ALC 42s that came through Kalamazoo (300 and 301) ... I think they were being pulled by the wolverine service ... I'm planning on trying to get a tour of the Siemens Mobility factory where the ALC 42s are built (it's about eight miles from my house) ... If I am successful, would you like me to pass along the information on how to get a tour?
Yes please!! Best of luck, let me know how it goes
I certainly will let you know ... I'll call over there Monday morning
@Thom-TRA Just to update you: I have left a voicemail at Siemens Mobility and I'm waiting for a call back ... Stay tuned!
@@Thom-TRA I left messages on Monday and Wednesday, and have yet to get a callback from anyone at Siemens Mobility... Will let you know when/if I hear anything
there is a dude smoking a cigarette inside the train on 2:37... when stuff like that happens with no reaction from the authorities, it's hard to convince the car driving public of the benefits of public transit. To put it differently, public transit in the US has an image problem.
Absolutely. I have little patience for people that act antisocial. But transit is an afterthought here sadly.
Now that River Line concept is really interesting for the US type ooerations. It is the kind of system that could be put into operation really quuck and at a moderate cost by comparison with a heavy rail ooeration.
By the way, if the future gets brighter, would it be possible to convert the line to full size rail ops? It could be a logical step, wether with NJT extending its Trenton services all the way to Camden ir Atlantic city providing 'Grand Regional ' or 'Inter Regional ' service, or even "Nelly Bly'" Intercity services by Amtrak
I’m sure it would be possible! Except a lot of work would need to be done on the Camden end since it’s essentially a tram there.
PATCO and the River LINE is the cheapest way between Philadelphia and Trenton New Jersey instead of paying $9.25 to $10.00 on Septa.
Yep! If you can afford the extra time the savings are worth it
Sure, if you don't mind the 1 or 2 transfers (depending on where you begin) and the extra half-hour (at least, depending on connections).
@@benzzc3626 thanks for repeating what I said
@@Thom-TRA No need to thank me for agreeing with you, but you're welcome anyway. (I can only imagine how you react when people disagree with you.)
@@benzzc3626 why the hostile tone? It's not that serious
Wow, such a cool unusual regional rail service. Do a lot people commute into Trenton for work? Who is riding this thing? I wish I had a way to travel between mid sized cities here in Central VA without relying on Amtrak. Kudos to NJ Transit!
It was very busy on the train! People probably commuting either to Philly, Trenton, or NYC.
Fun fact, the least used river line station is the southern terminus.
That’s so weird
It's great to get to concerts at the Tweeter/Susquehanna/BB&T/Freedom Mortgage/next naming rights Center/Pavilion. Outside of that, there's nearly nothing else accessible from there
I live a block from the tracks. A station is just a few block away. The biggest complaint I have is that I avoid taking trips to AC or NYC because I'm afraid that by the time I get back, the RiverLine will be shut down. I think they should run something like the old Budd cars at night for late night riders so they don't have to worry about a fright train squishing one of those "fragile" cars. I hear the freights going by at night and believe me, there are not that many.
BTW it's a good way to go to the Battleship NJ as a volunteer on Saturdays and for VA appointments at their Camden Clinic.
Yeah the night thing is its biggest issue for sure
The riverline is a diesel powered interurban
The Stadler GTW fascinates me. You said it could be used in midsize American Cities on streets and rail rights of way so I wonder: what's a list of cities that could use the concept besides Grand Rapids?
It's really a true light railway a railway with lower regulations than traditional railway. Similar to the DMU operated rural lines in Europe.
GTW = Gelenktriebwagen literally articulated rail car in Swiss German (Schweiz)
Stadler are good for the power pack idea. The English and Cymru class 755 and 756 are BiMode EMU and DMU with the power-packs designed for diesel conversion to EMU when income for electrification comes
The BR class 231s are also stadlers, they're diesel FLIRTs set up for UK platform height. Just a shame they only run them in south Wales.
Petition to extend the Riverline past out to the West Trenton Septa station.
That would be great!
Only new jersey could make a GTW ugly lol.
I wonder if they would consider electrifying the street running downtown sections at each end, extend those so camden and trenton can both have a local electric streetcar, but with the river line providing a tokyo subway through running type service.
lol
Only in New Jersey
I agree with you on the ugly part. I see this train several times a week, and it always strikes me as being ugly.
You should honestly send this video to Grand Rapids transit system everything you said was right on spot
During my time there I’ve designed quite a few iterations of my fantasy metro. Maybe one day I will reach out, thanks for the tip!
@@Thom-TRA it’s people like us that have to be the change for rail here in this country they would be lucky to see your idea honestly
Thanks, Thom. I have a question irrelevant of the subject of this video, but it is something that puzzles me for a long time: all inconing and outgoing train ring a bell. I suppose it's for safety, but (as you know) in Europe it unheard of. Can you explain why it is so important in America?
It’s just an old steam-era rule that stuck. American railroads generally have less safety precautions, and there is a big liability culture here. Safety warnings have to be loud and obvious.
Here in the 1st Hour ✋
Congrats!
I e wondered if any thought has been given to possibly buy something FRA-compliant that could just be run during the time the freight trains run thus making the line more available to potential passengers.
I think you’re looking at something that would be a lot heavier and more expensive though. I doubt the state will really consider it.
@@Thom-TRA you’re probably right about that but I kind of wonder if there’s any difference in the size and weight of the various FRA compliant dmus.
Sorry you didn't get a multilevel car for your trip from Trenton to NYC. That's my favorite NJT route/car combo
It’s okay, I’ve gotten one of those every other time I’ve been on that line
I recently had two all-Comet sets in one day. Not the best for capacity 😬 what are the odds?
Stadler trains good 👍