I want banned as commander back. We’re playing a 4 player game tracking 40+ game pieces at a time. We can handle banned as commander. We can handle it.
You and I can handle it, sure. The rest of these people [looks around the room] I'm not sure the rest of these people can handle it. That one dude over there got a D6 stuck up his nose, and the guy next to him is trying to eat a food token.
It's not any harder than using the mtg companion app to see if a card is banned. If looking up to see if a card is banned is difficult, how are you all building decks in the first place. Complexity shouldn't be a factor, look at Commander Damage. Partners exist so in any given game there could be eight commanders, and you have to track those 8 damage types for each player. That's pretty complicated, but it exists. There's even having to make the distinction between is it a commander or a copy of one, as copies aren't commanders.
@@danaroach29 MTG is one of the hardest games with thousands rules, and add "banned as Commander" to "banned" isn't as hard as playing this game. vintage has both "banned" and "restricted" lists, and no one says that it is hard
I seriously disagree with the overwhelming sentiment that a "banned as your commander" list would be too much mental capacity for the format, even for newer players. It genuinely undermines the intelligence of the people who play this game, and I cannot imagine it would be this overwhelming list you need to keep separated from the cards you cannot run at all, I think it would only be less than 5 cards at its absolute maximum. It would allow for players to use said cards in a way that is fair in a "once in a while" or synergistic manner as opposed to always existing in your opening hand and shaping the entire construction of your decklist.
@@cursedluigi Yeah, I play with a newer player that isn't very good and when I told him that some of the cards he had proxied were banned, he just said "oh, ok" and switched them out. Worst case scenario for having banned as commander cards is that the player doesn't use a deck building site to tell them something is banned and has to swap the commander into the 99 for the day and slightly retool their deck later. It feels kinda demeaning that people think "banned as commander" is a hard thing for new players to understand, there are like 100 keywords. I don't think "you can't play this card as commander" is harder to understand than "for each spell cast before this spell this turn, copy it" or "if a spell or ability targets this permanent, counter it unless an additional cost is paid".
@@cursedluigi I can see not having a "banned as companion" list, not because it would be too difficult to understand, but because there would only ever be 1 card on the list but "banned as commander" would have like 5 or so cards on it RIGHT NOW. That would only increase as time goes on and I think monetarily it would be the right call for WotC since they wouldn't have to ban cards like Nadu outright leading to less packs being opened that habe the disappointing outcome of unplayable cards.
I strongly agree. And I also don’t completely get behind the “too many things to track” argument. The average commander player tracks 20 times more moving parts at any given time when they are actively playing just about every game of commander. I don’t think people would struggle to have one more caveat to an otherwise entirely straightforward banlist, especially considering that it really isn’t something you’re keeping track of in the same vein as the increasing complexity of a live game. This is something you keep an eye on in deckbuilding, and in pre game.
@@claudioriquelmenunez3218I agree, but ultimately I'd still prefer a rules change that says "commanders with partner start the game with one less card in hand."
@@brianlinden3042I don't like that fix, I'd prefer what they did in Duel Commander, Which is "during a game, whenever you cast one of your partner commanders, you can't cast the other one for the rest of the game"
@@beurtalvarez too restrictive, IMHO. The "starting with one less card" is balanced by the "9-th" card represented by the second Commander (even Backgrounds are counting toward the 9-th card)
I really don't understand the argument "banned as commander would be too confusing". New players would have to look up the ban list and understand the rules before building a new deck from scratch. The amount of people who can't understand this is pretty close to zero.
I've watched a few of these banlist reevaluation videos now and everyone keeps skipping the other big change that we know 100% is coming with 4 power level brackets. Many of these cards would be fine to unban and then placed at certain power level brackets. Whether or not you like the bracket system is a whole other conversation, but discussing unbans and which bracket they could fit in, if unbanned, would make a lot of sense to me.
Sorry guys, but any price/value argument you could make for a reason to NOT unban a card is a moot argument when stuff like Gaea's Cradle, Mishra's Workshop, Timetwister, etc are legal already. Because saying 'well if these cards were legal they'd be really expensive' is such a 'so what?' argument against them. Remember, you can always have that chat with the table about running proxies, but if they aren't legal in the format that's a totally different conversation.
This whole conversation is making me face a lot of things that I held as beliefs that I realize aren't as common as I thought. For example, self regulation is a terrible excuse to not ban or unban something. If anything, it should be a clear indication of what should be handled. If you already have to ask permission to play a deck (i.e. Tergrid example) it's effectively banned, but it's worse than that because players should expect to be allowed to play things that aren't banned. If you have a degenerate thing that's on a casual banlists, you're at least not under the friction of not being allowed to play the thing you expected to build and play. Also, I think that the old school "signpost" philosophy was a bad idea out of the gate. Banning a single example of a toxic play pattern but leaving the rest alone, just leaves people who would do that already with 1 fewer options, and judged for doing them. Frankly I think that this is the best use for a hypothetical bracket system, leave all the cards of certain play patterns in upper tiers to leave them out of casual play, and put the A & B of unfun synergies (i.e. wheels and wheel lockouts like Hullbreacher/narset) in different tiers, so you can use a more normal side of the effect without getting up tiered, you know, every one of those conversations where you have to go "but I'm not *that* kind of 'blank' deck". And candidly, I think the history of loose banlists philosophy has led to commander groups having a different philosophy than other formats in an unhealthy way, because I think that the constant calls for unbans for whatever niche use, without regards to the overall health of the format. Hell, the amount of people who had major outcries to this last ban as opposed to just saying "yeah that makes sense" astonished me. Any decision will always have people complain and terrible overreaction, but the idea that acceptance wasn't the majority opinion blew me away. Especially because I genuinely think the banlist could safely be two or three times larger and the game would be better for it. But I guess people have huge emotional ties to a lot of this format, so I guess I get it
Whenever I see people start up this conversation of unbanning cards every couple months, I am constantly reminded how bonkers peoples' brains are in Commander. I have had to deal with people refusing to self regulate and have any self-control. People already shove all the most expensive staples, rhystic, smothering Tithe, mana vault, cyclonic rift, dockside (when legal), etc. at my lgs. If any of these cards like primeval Titan or paradox engine were legal, they will shove those in instantly for their casual "midpower" decks. Obviously of it were up to me, I would ban at least a dozen more cards.
I couldn't agree more. For a format spanning the entirety of mtg history, the ban list for commander is painfully and problematically short, considering what is not banned. The concept of "casual commander" wasn't kept that well by the RC, imo.
Humans are characteristically inanely selfish, and rules are often approached as a "rules for thee but not for me!". This isn't just Magic but applies everywhere in life. "Ugh! I have road rage now that this driver merged infront of me without using their turn signal!" ... Yet proceeds to not use their turn signal before merging 90% of the time they're driving themselves. "Ugh! I'm upset that my partner was texting some other guy who was asking to meet her for coffee and never talked to me about it!" ... But they'd have no issues if a very attractive person started flirting with them. I'm personally someone that will impose rules/restrictions on myself to set the example because I can only expect others to do things as long as I'm also doing them as well. I will stop at every stop sign, regardless, because I'm sick and tired of others running stop signs. Etc. To bring this discussion back around to MtG, this is employed in how I deckbuild. Playing against fast mana sucks when you didn't draw into fast mana. Everyone's a lot more level playing field when 2 mana ramp or 2 mana rocks are cheapest mana acceleration you can do (outside of wrath-susceptible elves/birds). My decks all remove Sol Ring, even precons, to be substituted for a land or some other 2 mana rock. Imo, the format would be a lot better if 2 mana ramp was the baseline, and all decks of all colors have relatively similar mana acceleration potential. (Think of this as employing a highway speed limit in MtG) There's already too much mana and ramp and acceleration going around in commander, and unfortunately it's consolidated into a handful of legal staples that would otherwise go in every deck except for cost/intentional lowering of power. In other formats, when certain mechanics get too prevalent/strong/or metagame defining, bans should be hit towards those cards to reduce their consistency and prevalence in the metagame.
Rhystic is _exactly_ an anti-social card. Just paying the one to pacify it, suddenly one player doesn't pay the one, cause _their_ cool thing is "worth it, guys." Alongside the fact that it draws a ton of cards, but not in one fell swoop, it gives worse players an inaccurate picture of who's the threat at the table. I think it's by far the most ban-worthy card out there today (even moreso than sol ring).
yeah, rhystic kind of completely sucks the air out of the room for a commander game. at least for mystic remora it hits a narrower type and pinches you out a little on mana if you wanna keep it for multiple turns, but the problem for both is even if you try to destroy it, you either go further down on mana or go down a card. unfun even in the best case scenario
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Rhystic Study. Yea, there are people out there to stupid to pay the one. Sometimes it's my Rhystic Study and I love those adorable idiots, sometimes it's an opponents and I want the throw the jack ass that keeps casting into it a sock party, but that's just how it goes sometimes. As far as the complaint about "do you pay the one" causing some sort of game delay, that BS. It's a fraction of a second to say, it does nothing to slow the game down. The people who hate it really only hate it because they don't own one and are unwilling to proxy.
Players have a much easier time advocating FOR themselves rather than AGAINST themselves. When a game piece like stasis locks people out of the game it is easy for the table to say "Hey, I did not have fun playing against that. Let's not play it next game." Boom! rule 0 success! This stands in contrast however to Primeval Titan, which is overly strong, but would require the person who is playing prime time to regulate themselves -> "I did too much that game and my opponents could not keep up. I should not play this card next game." This is a statement I have heard maybe a single digit number of times. Psychologically, I've seen people be more likely to advocate for regulation when they are being slowed, but it requires a level of self restraint to advocate for slowing themselves. This is pretty normal and not something to admonish, it just means that for the health of the format and the community we probably need some oversight ya know?
@@nathanstruble8587 Would you though? I'm not saying people wouldn't do that, but that feels like the kinda thing most people would do once and realizes how boring it is and never do it again. Not everyone mind you, and I still don't think it's a good addition to the format, but it also feels like the kinda thing that after a hot first month you'd go a decade without seeing again.
@@danaroach29 oh whoops, yeah most certainly not. That was meant to be a hypothetical bringing up how easy it is to abuse, but I don't actually know anyone that would do that haha. It kind of sits in the Craterhoof category. One of the strongest and easiest ways to win, but sort of... "flavorless"?
Yeah most of this is subjective. It's why a ban list for casual play is not a great solution. I think we should have a ban list for competitive play only. And players could reference the competitive ban list to inform building their casual decks. Bottom line: players who are jerks will always find cards to stomp other players and say, "hey it's not banned so it's fine." No, it's not fine to be a jerk in casual play. The ban list also gives cover to jerk players, imo, because they'll just pick cards not on the ban list. We can't ban every single card that warps the game. Armageddon is not banned but no one plays it, for example. We don't need to ban Armageddon because people hate it and don't accept it in casual play.
@@punkypinko2965Yeah, them talking about the Tergrid player is a perfect example of why most of these things should be unbanned. Some people really like these cards despite knowing what they feel like and most of those people will ask before doing something that others might hate. My favorite deck is Eldrazi titan tribal and I ask before playing it and warn people what it's like if they agree before asking you f they're sure. That's not going to suddenly change just because I get to have Emrakul in the deck. The majority of people don't take pleasure in nonconsensually playing things that others will find unfun, even if they enjoy it. I think Braids or Emrakul are safer unbans because people know what that stuff feels like while something like Primetime doesn't feel awful to play against so people will run it despite it often propelling people so far ahead that no one can catch up. Even then, I'd still be for unbanning that too.
@@Ivarrson Commander has not existed for 20 years. They even say in the their video they have not played with Emrakul and Recurring Nightmare. The command zone only got into commander because it is the format their channel gained traction. JLK even explained that on the apology video. I have been playing commander since 2010. I have played with all these banned cards. It is very easy to tell when some one hasn't played with these cards. But go on how "not informed" I am.
As somebody who usually leans towards less bans this so far has been the best conversation for counterpoints to keep cards banned - however I think a lot of this discussion is being made without keeping the new tiers in mind. Biorhythm would suck to have to worry about in lower tiered decks, having to always keep creatures around just in case - but it would be an extremely fair wincon in a tier 4 setting where every player is slinging the most busted spells. lots of these cards in conversation can be applied this way
That is an excellent point, but I think it depends on the tiers system being both widely adopted and well respected. There are enough new players that don’t know enough about the banned list as it is, and I can see a lot of less informed players - which is the majority of players tbh - not recognizing the tiers of those haymaker cards
Even ignoring the tiers, some of the cards were banned many years ago, and it's a very different format now. For example, the argument I've hard about Recurring was "it becomes the only card they play". So what?! If that's how the person (me for example, lol) wants to play, why is that an issue? It's not like it would suddenly hit the table in every single pod (even if it got reprinted). I'm not against the fast mana bans, but the EDHRec crew seem overly cautions about some of these cards coming of f the list.
Since we don't have the specifics of the teir system yet we tried to do this without taking it into consideration, but depending on how it shakes out that's a fair point.
It's hard to keep the new tiers in mind for a current conversation when we don't know what the new system will look like. We got a rough structure but Gavin and Aaron both said pretty explicitly that it's a very early version and likely will change.
Biorhythm is not hi power card it'll only get used in low power to mid power games were its a some what decent win condition. In high power its to over costed and the other 3 players are all likely gonna be sitting on answers to it.
If a brand new player has a banned as commander card in the command zone, I very seriously doubt they’re doing the broken thing that makes that card banned as the commander anyways (considering they aren’t very experienced). In my personal experience, if a newer player has a banned card, the other players at the table will let them know it’s banned for future reference and will either let them play it that game anyways or ask them to use it as a basic land if it’s going to make for a completely miserable game. In the scenario they’re asked to use it as a basic land, it’s usually explained to them why it would end up being a miserable experience for the table.
For the "why do we even need a banlist" argument: games need updates. Especially one as complex as TCGs. In other games if some unintended interaction would break a game, go infinite, or generally ruin a play experience, it gets patched/erratad/banned/etc. As stated, if your playgroup is cool with it then that's great for you, but as a BASELINE commander must have some amount of curation as a casual format. Some cards were never meant to be used with 4 players (Rhystic Study), some cards are frankly just badly designeds (Jeweled Lotus, clearly), and others are just too easily abusable. Cards fitting these criteria are unhealthy for the baseline of the format, and even if some people would like to play with everything including the Power 9 I do not believe it would better the game. Your local soccer league can do away with offsides if you want, but it's asinine to want that for all of soccer as a whole. Card games have the unfortunate added baggage of cards having real world monetary value tied to them, so bans or updates can feel bad, but in my opinon that should never be a factor in considering the health of a format, ANY format, not just commander. At the end of the day, it's cardboard with ink. And if WotC's track record designing cards specifically for commander is anything to go off of, get comfortable with proxying.
30:24 Matt's point about he would rather see proactive "fun" cards(Primetime, Prophet) rather than denial cards (Upheaval) is exactly why they should stay banned or wait until we see if players actually take up the bracket system. Joey's point that I completely agree with is that those fun cards are the ones where the banlist is holding back the most people from playing, so it would have a much larger impact on the format. I think people should be able to play with Primetime, but only if when I sit down to the table and people say "I dont want to play against bracket 4 decks", we dont have to see any primetimes.
@@danaroach29 The whole bracket system is a joke. My Teysa Karlov deck isn't running cards that would be beyond a 2 and it will flat out destroy most mid level casual tables. Flip side, my morph deck happens to have a couple bracket 4 type cards and isn't very strong. The idea that a few cards suddenly makes your deck play at a certain level just isn't reasonable. All it will ever do is cause frustration Edit: actually meant to be a reply to Orpheos9
About Library being banned, while Tabernacle or Bazaar being legal: the latter two are very archetype specific (stax and graveyard strategies, specifically), while Library can be thrown into any deck at almost no opportunity cost.
Sure, but even being universally playable Library is probably less powerful than Bazaar or Tabby. The decks where those two are good they're straight busted. If I put Library in every deck I own it probably still draws me less cards less often than War Room. Still, I get your point. Ubiquity is never a good thing.
I think Library is kinda not worth playing in most decks. Holding exactly 7 cards isn't as easy as you'd think. I think it's safe to unban, though I do know it would spike the price. I just don't think anyone is required to go out and get one - their deck will be fine without.
Glad you guys went over things to add. I think that's a much better discussion to be having when we are finally trying to fix some long standing issues. Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe would be great to see leave. More fast mana and even Demonic Tutor I wouldn't mind exiting.
This is where Brackets could come in and set them to level three or four and you can play at one ot two. I'd likely see powerful cards in those brackets, they're just not as toxic as those cards
Joey is talking soooo much sense here. Couldn't believe on some other popular commander channels they are saying to unban Biorhythm and Coalition Victory... insanity. You are SO RIGHT about Biorhythm. You do the "right" thing and Wrath a huge board, and the green player untaps, plays a Llanowar Elves, and Biorhythms to win GG.
Idk, Coalition Victory seems fine. As far as "win the game" cards go, it is SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than cards like Thassas Oracle and Laboratory Maniac, as those are cheaper, in only one color, and the condition of emptying your library is very easy if you actually try to do it. Coalition Victory, on the other hand, costs EIGHT mana, is sorcery speed, requires you to be playing all five colors, and is VERY vulnerable to a wide range of instant speed removal...basically any effect that can be played at instant speed that can either remove creatures, lands, and/or other permanents that grant colors/ land types (like Leyline of the Guildpact) has a decent chance to completely fizzle this eight mana spell. But yea, if you ramp up to eight mana, have a Dryad of the Ilysian Grove and Transguild Courier in play, cast Coalition Victory, and nobody at the table has a Counterspell or ability to destroy a creature, artifact, or enchantment at instant speed, you win. But if we're counting on our opponents being potatoes, there's a lot of other *better* cards you could use for that much mana to win the game.
@@sgjuxtaAgreed and people are forgetting the fact that most people will play a card like Coalition Victory one time, go "huh, that was unsatisfying", and remove it from their decks. It's neither terribly strong nor terribly fun and keeping a card banned because it's not very fun is just weird. There are so many unfun cards to play against and unfun cards to play that they could never ban them all. It's like if they had banned Approach of the Second Son and people were like "that cards boring and unsatisfying, keep it banned". Who decides what's boring and unsatisfying?
I really don’t have an issue with that; that’s an insanely specific situation. That means no one had a Shock in hand. Also, that means the green player had none lands out - I’m assuming that the Elves player isn’t playing much artifact ramp. Also, Elves decks run pretty low land counts, so having nine lands in play would be rather difficult for them.
Don't think it went unnoticed that Dana mentioned WotC making decisions in the interests of making a profit and then you flashed "Cache Grab" on the screen. Well played, edhrec lol.
Panoptic mirror combo can be played with 5 mana actually at the risk of exposing it for a turn cycle. You can imprint on your next upkeep in response to the trigger
22:00 re: Panoptic mirror, I know the optimal play is to put an extra turn spell on it and win the game, but the funniest play I've seen was somebody putting an armageddon on it in a "rule 0 deck"
The best way to evaluate the ban list is: If you want to play the card, but would be miserable sitting across from it, it needs to stay out of the format. If the card warps the format into "who can control it or cast/abuse it the most times per game", it needs to stay banned. Prime Time, Sylvan, and Emrakul warped the format into who can bribery first, cast clones, or flicker the most. These need to stay out
@@GabahulkI actually think the older stax cards like stasis and winter or should probably be banned because they warp the game completely for only 2 mana, but there are plenty of stax cards that are fair like the Thalias and Rule of Law
People generally aren't good at thinking of others, which is why I personally think the RC did a good job being EDH's parents and setting bedtime rules that we might not have followed on our own. I also recognize that may come across as condescending and not be a popular opinion.
@@Gabahulk If your deck falls apart to stax you are not building decks that draw you enough cards. Please stop laying your games in the hands of the top 15 cards of your library
also, if braids was legal you could just not play fast mana or rituals and play her on curve, shes genuinely not as bad as people make her out to be unless shes dark ritual'ed out
I've made that same exact argument for a handful of years now. I understand Braids being too oppressive when a deck is purposefully built around getting it out turn 1 or 2 consistently, but it's never seemed like an issue in the 99. Same with Lutri; there's already spell copy creatures that cost 2 mana like Doublecast, so even though I understand how it would be unfair for every RU deck to have an always accessible spell copy effect, I don't think it's too powerful to have access to it in the 99 since there are already Commander legal cards that do that for as little as 2 mana.
I would love Braids to come back. I don't even want to run her (or Tergrid) as Commanders, but I have decks where she would fit right in and not really improve the deck or make it more salt inducing. As others have said, if she's the Commander just "nope" the deck out or if it's a friend, let them be a jerk every few months and get a game in with it!
I don't think you really need banned as Commander. Braids as a commander isn't problematic at higher power levels so just throw her in bracket 2 or something.
@@imaginarymatter exactly, if you turn 1-2 braids then you are playing a higher power deck, and if you play braids on turn 3+ then thats just a medium paced game, rule 0 talk can fix 99% of issues caused with braids
I'd like to bring up a point about craterhoof vs. Biorythm. Craterhoof has more points of interaction, this is true. But it also has more synergy and methods of breaking it. You can sneak attack it out, reanimate it, blink it, ect. Biorythm is much harder to abuse. While I would love a world with no ban list, I'm not itching to get it unbanned. I just wanted to bring forth a little food for thought.
40:22 Happily ever after is the care you are describing as an enchantment coalition victory and as someone who runs it i can say the interaction keeps it in check
I wanted to point out the reason ondu spiritdancer is in the deck is because it combos with secret arcade to give you as many enchantment etbs as you want + an infinite army if you won't draw yourself out. Otherwise you are correct about the other interactions with other rooms.
@@FernandoGonzalez-hu3idagreed. Sometimes a single pod is playing and I need to wait around and watch until their game is done to join, you’re not going to argue about what everyone can play because you have been waiting for an hour.
@@ethanglaeser9239except when your nearest LGS is a couple hours drive and you can only play once every 2 or 3 months, at that point no magic means no magic at all. I live in a small town with no magic scene, and have only played 3 times this year, i am probably in the minority, most people in my situation would just quick the hobby, but between us and the new kids that dont know every commander, there are enough people that will not dodge a Braids for the ban to be worth it.
Biorhythm "looming over every boardwipe" is a take I haven't heard yet. I think it won't actually be popular if unbanned. It sounds like the threat that it poses to creatureless decks is a flip-flop of the currently common pattern I see where people show up to play a creature focused game, but a spellslinger deck shows up and plays on an axis they can't interact with. I think that the 8+ mv sorceries on the banned list could be placed in a high bracket rather than banned. The tables that are cool with combos, stax, and generally playing a tightly focused gameplan probably won't lose many games or much of their fun to a card like Sway of the Stars. In general, I don't think I'd see Biorhythm any more often than I see Worldfire today.
Also, I think that silver-bordered brackets as described: probably okay, could be okay, and probably not okay should work pretty well if "probably okay" is just the cards that work in the rules without any trouble. Hydradoodle from Unstable pretty much went on to become Neverwinter Hydra. Why not legalize Hydradoodle? Crow Storm is 3 mana for Storm Crow tokens equal to the storm count: based on power level, it's a little lower than Brain Freeze since BF has Underworld Breach combos. If these cards are adequately separated from the absurd, then it should be fine.
After seeing many other discussions on the ban list, IMHO, this has been the best. It's not just a simple too powerful or not too powerful discussion. Addressing the purpose of the ban list, the different areas a change could affect, and how people who have set play groups are impacted was a refreshing change.
Ill say im happy to leave everything banned. Maybe alter lutri to banned as companion. Otherwise i dont see the format improving if you unban anything. I say this as someone who is gradually building a liliana lore deck and would want to have Griselbrand in the 99 of it. But i think the format is better without them and i can always ask a table if I can play with a banned card and just use a substitute card if the group declines.
Real talk about Panoptic Mirror- I would be perfectly happy with it banned or unbanned, but if you want a good play experience, the spells being imprinted should really be less than CMC4. And it would be so much more fun too. Casting Lightning Bolt every turn feels good. Casting Plumb the Forbidden every turn feels good. Casting Brokers' Charm every turn feels good. I see it similarly to how I feel about Nadu: it's an interesting design space but that doesn't make it okay to play as written. Printing a new version that's far more fair and far more fun would be fantastic.
There's a lot of decks where people are already not imprinting counterspells or whatever onto Isochron, despite it probably being objectively strong in their deck. Would Mirror self-regulate in a similar way? Who knows. I agree almost no spell you imprint on it is fun to see every turn.
They should either unban Gifts Ungiven or ban Intuition, and given the Reserve List issues you've mentioned, I prefer the ban to the unban in this case.
The silver border joke makes me feel like there's a perfect space for an Acorn Tier List. A bunch of Un-set cards would be downright good for Commander, but some really deserve the klaxons and warnings before letting them into any general format.
The rules committee was seemingly working on basically this with their silver bordered project. Marking every silver border card at different tiers to make them easier to ask to include. Sounded like this is a bit more on the back burner since the wotc takeover though
Primetime has the paradox engine problem of a lot of people misunderstanding that it's not banned because you win the game with it. It's banned because you built it to take 40 minute turns that don't do anything.
I think we are going to see upwards of a dozen unbans, all with the caveat "but we're putting them in Bracket 4 along with other currently legal cards with similar effects." Something like "An expensive spell that wins the game or invalidates a large part of the game that has occurred before it is cast often ends up not being too powerful, but feels unsatisfactory. With this in mind, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, and Expropriate are all Bracket 4 cards." Or "A large expensive creature that might be fine when its cast for its full casting cost, but in practice usually gets cheated into play somehow and has an outsized effect for what those cheat cards (Sneak Attack, Through the Breach, Reanimate) should provide to align with a satisfying game state. With this in mind, Jin Gitaxis Core Augur, Vorinclex, Emrakul, Iona, Griselbrand, and are Bracket 4." Given that the Phyrexian Praetors tend to be high on the salt scale in multiple incarnations, I would not be surprised to see something like listed two Jin Gitaxises in their statement and making a joke to hang a lantern on it. That is not necessarily what I want to happen, but its what I think is likely. I think honestly though, I am likely to be one of the players that likes their bracket system and would end up not playing in Bracket 4 games anyway, so it probably wouldn't make much difference to me whether the cards are banned or bracket 4.
The reason Wizards did the Acorn thing was so that they could use Black Border cards to fill out the draft environment. The fact that a whole bunch of Silver Border mechanics are just Black Border now makes the "SIlver Playables" appealing. Uktabi Kong, Krark's Other Thumb, and Hydradoodle could be printed in a standard set. Black Border Dexterity, Ante, and External Reference cards are already banned. The issue is the fringe cards that aren't immediately obvious to most players, but a judge call or scryfall check sorts all of those pretty easily. Silver border inclusion is one of the many things the RC getting nuked cost me personally
Number 1 thing they should do is bring back the restricted/banned as list so cards like lutri can be used in 99 and comand zone as well as cards that are to strong as commander but ok in 99 can be allowed like braids.
I think the missing context in this discussion is possible unbannings in combination with a bracket system. I think some of the less egregious cards would be fine when assigned bracket 3 or bracket 4 so that players have the opportunity to self select themselves into bracket 2 or bracket 3 if they want to avoid certain affects like Armageddon or, for instance Rhystic Study (which should be at least a bracket 3 card imo). I'm super looking forward to Bracket 1/2/3 tournaments and players figuring out what is best at each level and the bracket lists being adjusted in response.
Acceleration pieces like Jeweled Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Dockside can all lead to fun game experiences if everyone is on board. They can end games early, but you can always shuffle up again. Placing these in bracket 4 is the perfect compromise between allowing people to play with them and keeping them out of most casual games. If you don't want to play against these cards, there is an official mechanism to decline. I feel like "Normal Commander" will end up around bracket 2 with bracket 3 being "High Power Causal" and bracket 4 being "Let's play busted stuff".
A lot of talk about how coalition victory and biorhythm can never be unbanned, 0 talk about how thoracle combo achieves the exact same thing for 3 to 7 mana. Either ban thoracle or unban rhythm and victory.
And Oracle didn't cost you eight mana across all five colors only to be stopped by a disenchant on your Leyline of the Guildpact. I'm convinced Coalition Victory is banned because, at the time it was banned, the people running the banlist were allergic to removal...like seriously. It costs EIGHT mana, and every single color has the ability to MEANINGFULLY counter it, not just blue.
The argument against banning Thoracle is that it seems to be a card that people have largely self-regulated to just cEDH tables, and the worry would be that as clearly not cEDH cards Rhythm and CV wouldn't have that level of pressure. Personally I'd ban Thoracle myself too, but that's me.
@@sgjuxta It's largely been memory-holed because the old EDH website/forum is gone, but something key to this is that the statements from the RC back then carried this theme that they couldn't ban every powerful card, but that they focused instead on banning the subset of jank cards that casual players would think would be fun to play, but which the RC knew would actually not be fun to play. They had a mission to save casual players from their own ignorance.
@@sgjuxta "allergic to removal" ah yeah i forgot triomes and 5 color commanders dont exist, my bad. the entire time i play the game i should remove some guys commander every single turn in every single pod because that totally doesnt lead to horrible play patterns and drain you of cards to deal with the other people at the table. i am very smart and take all my arguments from the twitter pages of hardstuck plat arena players.
12:00 I think Wizards usually just refers to "accessibility" of cards like the ones on the reserve list. So I don't think they'd struggle at all with saying why those are banned
Gotta say, I loved your discussion on this more than any others I’ve seen so far. I don’t personally subscribe to the idea that a smaller banlist is automatically a better one, so for me cards that are already banned have a very high bar to clear for unbanning. Primeval Titan was on my list more because it would be interesting and flashy while maybe not being broken than because I thought it would be fine. I’m way closer to “no unbans” than any particular card, and I appreciate that you seem to be in a similar boat. Also, I think it’s work noting that rewarding death threats by unbanning Lotus or Crypt would be an enormous mistake, both for the present and the future. I sincerely hope WotC had enough concern over the safety of their people not to give awful people the message that death threats work.
Forcing cards that people want unbanned to stay banned because of a very small minority of the community is something i'm very much against. Unban those cardsI like them, and I didn't give anyone death threats.
@cablefeed3738 do you have proof of this being a very small minority of people who want them still banned. I haven't met anyone who wants them off and I travel a lot
Thr ban list is and should reflect moving away from the extremes. When we engage with any entertainment media where two or more people interact be it video games, sports, debates, card games, and even when we watch others we dont want to see it move to the extremes. We want it to be moderately paced, moderately balanced, to build up to a crescendo, and to watch all sides give it their all. Its why we go easy on the person who gets land screwed, we dog pile on the person who ramps ahead. We dont want to see games be over too quick or last too long. The goldilocks and the three bears theorem. The ban list can be summed up as: - incompatible with the format. - Too much resource accrual (card draw, mana) - too much resource denial (counterspells, discard, land deatruction, stax, tax) for too little resource input and/or too quickly.
I think that is a broad generality of what everyone who plays commander want. There are a decent bit of tables that are still casual that like high power. People who like games being fast, or having huge splash wins, etc that are still casual players. Heck i know of multiple youtube personalities, people at my LSG (yes anecdotal but this is to provide evidence to the overall point) and my own friend group; who enjoy fast mana because it means shorter games and opportunities to get more games in.
@TheIceman101418 That might be true, but as pointed out in this Video, the ban list is most relevant for the average game between players who don't have the time or don't want to take the effort of talking through a huge amount of individual cards toget to common ground. Individual, personal playgroups can allow/disallow any and all cards.
I think the argument most actually mean for things on the ban list is often less "This shouldn't be on the list" and more "Why is this on the list when this other, worse thing isn't?". Or alternatively "This similar thing isn't that bad and isn't on the list, therefore this one shouldn't be either". Coalition Victory gets a lot of attention for that because there are many win-the-game combos that can be done sooner in the game, so doing it for 8 mana doesn't seem "that bad". However, I don't think folks really think about why playing against combo can be engaging and that not all combo is created equal, and that's on top of knowing when you're playing against combo in the first place, something that many don't disclose and what has led to folks developing a bad taste in their mouth about it. Needing to kill a specific player's commander and/or lands just in case they're running the low-opportunity cost win condition isn't something every 5 colour commander player should be subjected to.
I think it quite unfortunate that the idea of Silver Border being legal at all is immediately met with assuming the silliest cards will be allowed, rather than actually knowing about what the project was about, which would basically put the cards into buckets of "basically black border" (like dice rolling cards), "silly but fine" (like fractions), and "probably shouldn't be played with (like Gotcha), which would let folks bring some silly like one could bring some planechase without needing to worry about things getting TOO silly.
1:00:36 I’m with Dana 100% here. When I was going through my deck-building phase I almost never put Rhystic Study in decks for two reasons: 1) I knew how annoying it would be to have to listen to “Do you pay the 1?” incessantly and I didn’t want to be that guy. 2) I didn’t want to have to keep track of every other player’s every spell in order to efficiently play the card. That’s tedious and more work than I want to put into a game.
I know conspiracies are effectively banned just by the way the format works, but I would love to see design space that plays with these sort of things. A commander that lets you choose a conspiracy or two to use, or gives a tiny wishboard. Perhaps combined with companion style deck building restrictions. Eminence at the deck building stage. I always liked companion conceptually, as well as stuff like the vanguard cards or Sensei cards from the old dbz score game(basically game effecting emblems that controlled your sideboard size, with the most powerful giving you a tiny sideboard, and weaker effects giving you more options) so I’d really enjoy playing with these sort of things more
I really hate the argument of "we dont want people to have to take cards out of their deck if they rule 0 it into their private playgroup". If we really think the card is not healthy, then they can deal with it for the better of the rest of the community. If we have to rule 0 to avoid hundreds of socially unacceptable cards, they can rule 0 to include a couple cards into their private group and be forced to ask for permission if they want to play that deck at a pub. Silver border is a great example of how this works. You even say in the episode, you dont want to see these, but you are happy for people to rule 0 it into their own playgroups.
I really think they should hold off on unbans until they see how the bracket system shakes out. If it gets good uptake then they can start unbanning things like prime time and gifts ungiven and put them in a higher bracket.
My guess would be we don't see any changes until the bracket system is in play for a bit, and to give some breathing room between whatever they change and the events of last month.
Additional comment because this is way more significant and important than my previous comment about the RL. WotC cannot unban the cards that just got banned, because that tells the community death threats and doxxing works. Their hands are tied on that one for a very long time.
I feel that the reluctance of using points system for commander boils down to the concern where the people in charged do not want Commander to outright cannibalize the Canadian Highlander.
Either we should bring back the seperate list that was known as "Banned as a Commander" which still allowed players that had a very synergistic creature card, to still be able to use it... but not be able to cast it 100% of the games played. Or, they need to just outright unban my boy- Golos, Tireless Pilgrim. I have a deck built around Domain, Converge & Sunburst & he is the perfect commander.
Marina is played as an enchantments commander, but she's primarily a rooms commander. The challenge is there just for the people playing rooms. Outside of rooms, Ondu Spiritdancer is good in the deck.
I've said it before and I will keep saying it: the worst move WotC could make as their first order of business would be to kill Sheldon's legacy. I would accept changing things around to bring back "banned as Commander" and to add "banned as Companion". If they don't do those though, the ban list doesn't need to change at all. And the second worse move they already made. The surviving NDC controversy will go down as almost as notorious as their attempt to change the D&D creator license.
I legitimately do not understand Joey's argument against Biorhythm and/or Coalition Victory. I fail to see how these cards would "hang over people's head" for deck building or games. I don't immediately think that I will run into a Thoracle + Demonic Consultation just because someone sitting across from me happens to be playing a UB(+) deck.
Because Thoracle is so closely associated with cEDH, that pressure has in large part kept it away from casual tables. That pressure wouldn't exist on cards like CV or Biorhythm, so they might be a problem at tables in a way Thoracle isn't. I'm not sure I necessarily think that pressure does enough to keep Thoracle in check, and I personally would ban it with extreme prejudice, but I do get the logic of the argument.
They're insanely weak 8 mana sorceries that under certain conditions are combos. Every single combo in the game is the same thing so I don't understand why these ones are outlawed when I could go on to list several thousand (Especially if you're in 5c for CV) stronger combos that would be seen as casual. People just hate combos
On Rhystic study and self control, this is a reason I like the bracket system at least conceptually. Right now it really is so easy to just throw it into any blue deck, but If Rhystic is say t3 then it makes me step back and consider if it really makes sense in the deck. If I say my deck is typical vampires t1 with a thematic vampiric tutor, people will be more ok with it then random t1 with Rhystic
Any unbans need to be dependent on what's placed in what bracket. It's perfectly acceptable that something like Primeval Titan gets unbanned if cards like: "Field of the Dead" et al. go into bracket 3-4 for example. The issue with blanket statement WotC shouldn't unban: "insert banned card name" is that you're only looking at the card through the lens of current Commander. There will be a future bracket system that will be introduced into the format which could likely allow for a number of unbans. Primeval Titan is likely fine if it's in say bracket 1-2 and Field of the Dead, et al. is in bracket 3-4, etc.
12:00 Acknowledging that without mentioning the secondary market means blaming the Reserve List. Roughly the same reason: "these cards are too hard to come by, and we can't reprint them."
So can anyone explain why Rofellos and Tolarian Academy is banned? Because when I look at those cards I really can’t see why that’s different from a Serra’s Sanctum or a Gaea’s Cradle
I think the Coalition Victory argument is a little weak. Sure, with Leyline of the Guildpact it can win with two cards (and a creature on the field)… for 12 mana. I can do the same thing with Vito and Exquisite Blood for 8 in mono black and one of the pieces potentially in the command zone. I feel as though there’s no more reason to worry about a Coalition Victory in every five color deck than any other two card combo in any other deck.
It wouldn’t even be in every 5c decks. No one is putting Coalition Victory in the Ur-Dragon, Slivers, or Jodah. The 5c-Eldrazi legend has the ability of Devoid (and therefore doesn’t have any color). And while Kenrith, Esika, Go-Shintai, Urtet, and Sisay have 5c-identity, they are only a single color or no color in terms of what color(s) they are.
seeing Dockside with a "banned" stamp never fails to bring a big smile on my face, even with the harsh consequences that decision had (though said consequences weren't that much about dockside)
I love my Expropriate! I am very Happen that there is a german version now (Zwangsenteignung). Just a great finisher in Spellslinger decks. Play it and copy it 2 times and than you just „win“. Thats so much better than playing a 30 min storm turn and maybe even cant win.
It's interesting how hands off the EDHREC Cast is being here. They repeatedly say "if we were Wizards" and "we personally wouldn't unban any cards". I mean, I get it. Sometimes it's best to leave things alone.
It's interesting to see the prime philosophical difference between ya'll and Command Zone's take. The underlying take I see here is that this panel largely does not trust the community and lower level tables to self regulate. I personally do not agree but I get being cynical towards people having self control. I think the numbers on things like Armageddon, and land destruction as a whole is just one of many examples Prime time is really not a major issue when compared to things that are illegal. Things with high Salt scores usually have a relativley low play rates, not all of them but a good majority of the top20 for sure
This is my opinion and mine alone, so take it with a huge grain of salt; the difference I think is the CZ folks generally play in a pretty hermetically sealed environment. As far as I can tell Josh isn't showing up at a random LGS in northern Minnesota or rural Ohio and jamming games with complete strangers. That is something we do, and that impacts how we view things like bans. That's not a criticism of them either mind you. Josh would get mobbed if he did that, and his life doesn't lend itself to doing that, or spending all day at a free play table at a MagicCon, etc. But it does impact how they see things like the avg game of EDH.
@@danaroach29 That is a very good point Dana that I did not think about. That does help me to understand your take, Joey and Matt's as well. i personally have seen a lot of self control from players in my LGS and personal group. I also might be self projecting as I do consider how cards would effect my play group when adding them to the deck, doesnt mean that is true of most casual tables. Gives me a bit to think about Also thank you for the reply.
I also disagree that the larger part of the community is good at self-regulation. In fact, the concept itself might be foreign to a group of new players, who potentially approach a commander game without knowledge of the format philosophy, thinking it like any competitive card game. The Moment these Players employ any online ressource, they get recommended the strongest staples to put into a deck. Watching mtg podcast content online makes you and me into part of the most involved group of mtg players. We're aware of format philosophy and the idea of selfrestraint for the better of the game. Ironically, very 'casual' players might come to play pretty ugly and extremely powerful cards in uneven pods. For this reason I also advocate for more bans instead of less, which the old RC even agreed with, considering all bans they did were 'signpost bannings', meaning they _meant_ to hit more cards like the ones already banned, but nobody takes vague notions of potential bans seriously. Just ban cards outright.
It bothers me that anyone would say, “this powerful card isn’t that bad if it’s printed in limited amounts as a chase rare” or whatever, because it completely ignores how many people are proxying (which is great), and how many people play using Moxfield/Archidekt. A card being physically rare has a limited impact on its prevalence in actual games. Every single person I play with and almost everyone I’ve played with in the last few years are playing with proxies. Arguments for the rarity of a card making it “not a problem also always fall into the meritocracy fallacy. You shouldn’t have to play against someone’s wallet.
Banned as commander wouldn’t be confusing for players. The list would be short, and it’s fairly easy to explain to newer players why the commander they’d want to play is banned. When making a deck on decklist websites, they can easily tell you “Sorry, this card is banned as Commander”
I think the argument against banned as commander went out the window with legal UN cards. The moment they made certain cards from a joke set legal makes it where a separate list for commanders is child's play
I want Sway of the Stars to be unbanned so I can put it in my El Minster deck, I would never cast it, but, I will 100% exile it to make 10 Faerie Dragon tokens lol I only want Golos unbanned to helm my 5 color 'cast from exile' deck. And I've always loved Emrakul, free her!
I actually think this is a weird spot where if you brought back banned as commander it could free things up. Weirdly grisselbrand and iona are fine in the command zone but brutal in the the 99 where they can be reanimated and sneak attacked and such.
i support a Banned as Commander list, i was disappointed in the previous end to that list. that said, Iona goes against a big part of the inherent nature of the format, and Griselbrand is outrageously aided by the starting life total (much like Fastbond and Channel). in the 99 they would be somewhat less aggressive, but still problematic and "offensive" to the basic principles of Commander. these two are likely best left completely banned.
Exactly, what is the purpose of the banlist? It's to not overburden the pregame conversations! If a card is obnoxious without being broken, nobody wants to run into that. Then it's useless to keep long personal lists of "cards I don't want to play against" in addition to the banlist, and expect players to fix their decklists pregame on the fly.
I’m a new player and on first commander game I was rhystic studied, thassas oracled, cyclonic rifted 😭. I’ve been docksided, smothering tithed, and even mana crypted. All while I’m running my little $50 deck. In my experience, people will absolutely not hold back no matter what even if you are like hey I’m new and this is all I’ve got. They’ll wipe the floor with you and smile unblinkingly while they do it the whole time… so I’m quite in favor for as many of these problematic cards to stay banned as possible
None of the four most recent bans should ever be undone. Reversing on those equates to handing a win to the harassers who put the format in Wizards’ hands in the first place. Giving the message that threats and harassment get you what you want would be a very bad thing for the game.
The bracket system will be interesting, if Jewelled Lotus gets unbanned it will go into bracket four. That will significantly reduce demand. I’m sure WOTC can find/make chance cards that can be more universally played.
None of the recent bans can be unbanned, or else the people who sent the death threats won, and those people will know that it works. Even if you could rationalize unbanning any of them for game balance reasons, it would just give legitimacy to the threats made against the RC members. Those people need to know they are not welcome here, and should be shut out of any and all social circles until they can act responsibly. Edit: Green has been the most powerful color in casual EDH forever and I sincerely believe it is because it can just produce unfettered amounts of mana without recourse, as land destruction has become super taboo. People will use mechanics like land destruction just to be annoying, rather than using it to keep Green players at bay, or taking out a super powerful utility land that has shot someone ahead. There need to be answers to lands like Gaea's Cradle and Itlimoc and Cradle of the Sun (Strictly better Gaea's Cradle once you transform it). But we can't have nice things because people who play this game will just go "nobody allows me to play Tergrid :(" and then go on to waste everyone's time for an hour and a half.
No, the recent bans should be unbanned because they shouldn't be held hostage by people saying a very tiny minority did death threats, so the half of the community who wants them unbanned, conveniently, doesn't get what they want. Leaving the other half of the community saying they shouldn't be unbanned, getting exactly what they want.I don't think it's a coincidence.
@@cablefeed3738all the bans were warranted they all deserved ban , all of them felt like slaping à hundred dollar on the table and saying : ill begin the game at turn 3 or 4 because I paid , only reason ppl are mad because they lost money buying OBVIOUS OP TOP 3 CARD OF A FORMAT they dont fkn understand how a mox and a black lotus is p9 level
@@cablefeed3738 The people sending death threats were the ones that want them unbanned... Because they're the ones who "lost money". Please engage honestly with things or do not engage with them at all. I have zero tolerance for people who engage in bad faith
@thechikage1091 yes, people who wanted it unbanned sent death threats. But it was a very small group, and the very large group of people who wanted unbanned, that didn't send death threats still want it unbanned.
In the defense of unbanning biorhythem, shaman of forgotten ways has been in the format for a decade now. It hasnt broken anything, and can be done out of nowhere even in mono green. Also, 2nd part about not liking 1 spell burning away 100s of life points, repay in kind does that for 7 mana
I could see WotC comming out with a Commander set next year or so with reprints of some banned cards that they'll unban and load this into the bracket system at the higher tiers.
It is possible that the ban list has been tailored enough and is ‘perfect’ in that no one piece should be unbanned. To 'find a card to unban' is trying to solve a problem that no one is asking for. Rather players want communication and more transparency. WotC taking control of the format will only lessen the transparency unless WotC treats Commander differently (I have no reason they would). WotC could have make an announcement 24 hours after RC’s banning announcement was live. Saying you can dust these now banned cards for a choice of X points. You mail in the cards and then are awarded points to ‘buy’ replacement cards. That WotC didn’t have this as plan F to enact right away is a missed opportunity. [And by now, too much wealth has been lost and the ship has been sailed. This quick action would have been the way to soften banning ¿millions? overnight.]
I changed my Baba Lysaga deck (yes it was somewhat inspired by Joeys) into Winter, Misanthropic Guide. And it is really fun even tho I paint a big target on my back from the get go. In it I also have Enduring Vitality and Doomsday Excruciator. My playgroup knows about it and I just want to see what will happen for a while. So yesterday I was about to loose but had EV, three other creatures and two Swamps among my lands so I tapped all creatures including EV for black and my two swamps and oh the salt was so tasty. No but it went from a sure winner to what will happen next. Unfortunately I didn't have any more mill cards available so I was killed by the way of five 5/5 doublestrike flying angels to the face. But it was really fun to experience something so gamewarping that was basically a 5% chance of having all at the same time. And it was really just down to the next 2-3 turns anyway. The only tutors I have are for lands and if need be I can pay cleave for Dig Up. But even that one is almost never worth it. The randomness and chaos is what makes commander what it is and as long as everyone has a great time it is the closest to a perfect cardgame in my opinion.
So, a funny thing about Prime Titan, and I shouldn't admit to this, but I just bought over like 20+ of them a week or two before that price jump. So no I think I have over 30 with the ones I already had. I joked about how once this format I'm working one takes off, It'll jump in price and I can turn around and sell them for a profit, and so I wanted 100 of them. But in reality, It's a card I love playing with and I wanted to make sure I owned enough before the price jumped up due to my own format (ha, not likely, this will take years to take off) or due to the recent upswing due to CEDH becoming it's own thing or WOTC potentially unbanning it. Looks like I was right for once.
I like Joey's point about Dockside when it comes to primetime. Positive effects can be as bad for fun but are harder to negotiate out of the experience, and that's why having a banlist pay attention to those cards is a Good Thing.
People really need to stop saying panoptic mirror should be unbanned. The card is straight up a problem. You can put multiple things under it. Here's my panoptic mirror with a rampant growth under it. Are you going to kill my rampant growth engine? Oh i found what I'm looking for plus a way to protect my panoptic mirror. End step of player going before me imprint my time warp, counter the removal spell untap and win. Card is not ok. Im so happy that at least some of the hosts were able to recognize this card as a must stay banned. Same with Prime time. I would play the living shit out of prime time. That card needs to stay banned. Sway of the stars needs to stay banned. Its basically Shahrazad.
The amount of disagreement between these awesome guys has me excited to shift from a ban list that fits no one to a bracket system that lets play groups do what they enjoy
Ondu spiritdancer to me seems like it sees play because of how good it is if you play it after unlocking the secret arcade room Infinite 3/3s because the spiritdancers are then enchantments, meaning they are able to copy themselves on ETB
Sylvan primordial concerns me less now. We have faster and more varied types of ramp. Our spells are more efficient and impactful than back in the day. There are better blink/reanimate/clone targets. Less powerful, and goes in less decks but still annoying. Prime time has the opposite problem. It has only gotten stronger as they make new lands. You could put this in any green deck and be happy with it.
@@James-mm8pr Name another card that puts each opponent down a land and you up 3 lands that is castable on turn 3. Now, can I trigger that other card multiple times? Primordial is busted af.
@@James-mm8pr Turn 1 sol ring Turn 2 Cultivate/Kodama's Reach Turn 3 Sylvian Primordial That is the easiest most simple line every deck can do. There are many line that let you cast Primordial on turn 3. Turn 1 Llanowar Elf (any 1 mana dork) Turn 2 anything Turn 3 Primal Order Turn 1 entomb Turn 2 reanimate The list goes on and on.
@@herpderp66 I'm not concerned with these lines. They take 3 cards to put together in the first three turns. If people get that hand/can pull it off they got my kodus. Shuffle up new game. Entomb + Reanimate is easier as it takes two cards. It's solid but I'm not concerned about it because most entomb + reanimate on turn 2 can take over games. They pull this off. I'm good with gg. Shuffle up a new game in need be. I'm not sure I follow the line with Llanowar elf as that only gives you 4 mana on turn 3. Even with a rampant growth that's five mana. The card is solid, but the card's like sol ring and entomb are what scare me.
Primetime should stay banned. Every game becomes how to abuse it. Ever deck will want to either play it themselves, or play a bunch of clones. We have seen it before, and it is highly unlikely to be any different now.
I really hate to defend Prime Time because I don't wanna see it unbanned either BUT it's worth noting that back when it was a problem the legend rule also applied to the full battlefield, so people just generically ran clones as cmdr kill spells. The legened rule changed roughly the same time as Prime Time was banned, so we really haven't lived in an EDH world where it was legal and people weren't also running multiple clones as super value ways to remove someone's cmdr. Without so many incidental clones in decks it might be slightly less crappy. Maybe.
Also more powerful lands have been printed now. We have many 2 card land comboes that win the game that didn't exist before ban. We also have more "I win the game" lands than before ban. No way should PT be unbanned ever.
I want banned as commander back. We’re playing a 4 player game tracking 40+ game pieces at a time. We can handle banned as commander. We can handle it.
You and I can handle it, sure. The rest of these people [looks around the room] I'm not sure the rest of these people can handle it. That one dude over there got a D6 stuck up his nose, and the guy next to him is trying to eat a food token.
It's not any harder than using the mtg companion app to see if a card is banned. If looking up to see if a card is banned is difficult, how are you all building decks in the first place.
Complexity shouldn't be a factor, look at Commander Damage. Partners exist so in any given game there could be eight commanders, and you have to track those 8 damage types for each player. That's pretty complicated, but it exists. There's even having to make the distinction between is it a commander or a copy of one, as copies aren't commanders.
@@danaroach29 MTG is one of the hardest games with thousands rules, and add "banned as Commander" to "banned" isn't as hard as playing this game. vintage has both "banned" and "restricted" lists, and no one says that it is hard
@@jaredrosa3415so hard then? The companion app is a glitchy mess. It doesn't even work half the time.
Apparently commander players are just too stoopid to understand this incredibly simple concept.
I seriously disagree with the overwhelming sentiment that a "banned as your commander" list would be too much mental capacity for the format, even for newer players. It genuinely undermines the intelligence of the people who play this game, and I cannot imagine it would be this overwhelming list you need to keep separated from the cards you cannot run at all, I think it would only be less than 5 cards at its absolute maximum. It would allow for players to use said cards in a way that is fair in a "once in a while" or synergistic manner as opposed to always existing in your opening hand and shaping the entire construction of your decklist.
@@cursedluigi Yeah, I play with a newer player that isn't very good and when I told him that some of the cards he had proxied were banned, he just said "oh, ok" and switched them out. Worst case scenario for having banned as commander cards is that the player doesn't use a deck building site to tell them something is banned and has to swap the commander into the 99 for the day and slightly retool their deck later. It feels kinda demeaning that people think "banned as commander" is a hard thing for new players to understand, there are like 100 keywords. I don't think "you can't play this card as commander" is harder to understand than "for each spell cast before this spell this turn, copy it" or "if a spell or ability targets this permanent, counter it unless an additional cost is paid".
@@cursedluigi I can see not having a "banned as companion" list, not because it would be too difficult to understand, but because there would only ever be 1 card on the list but "banned as commander" would have like 5 or so cards on it RIGHT NOW. That would only increase as time goes on and I think monetarily it would be the right call for WotC since they wouldn't have to ban cards like Nadu outright leading to less packs being opened that habe the disappointing outcome of unplayable cards.
I strongly agree. And I also don’t completely get behind the “too many things to track” argument. The average commander player tracks 20 times more moving parts at any given time when they are actively playing just about every game of commander. I don’t think people would struggle to have one more caveat to an otherwise entirely straightforward banlist, especially considering that it really isn’t something you’re keeping track of in the same vein as the increasing complexity of a live game. This is something you keep an eye on in deckbuilding, and in pre game.
I never had a problem with "Banned as Commander". If this returned, it would be such a small list anyways.
Yes, and "Ban as a commander" all 2 color legendary creature with partner
@@claudioriquelmenunez3218I agree, but ultimately I'd still prefer a rules change that says "commanders with partner start the game with one less card in hand."
@@brianlinden3042I don't like that fix, I'd prefer what they did in Duel Commander, Which is "during a game, whenever you cast one of your partner commanders, you can't cast the other one for the rest of the game"
@@beurtalvarez too restrictive, IMHO. The "starting with one less card" is balanced by the "9-th" card represented by the second Commander (even Backgrounds are counting toward the 9-th card)
I really don't understand the argument "banned as commander would be too confusing". New players would have to look up the ban list and understand the rules before building a new deck from scratch. The amount of people who can't understand this is pretty close to zero.
I've watched a few of these banlist reevaluation videos now and everyone keeps skipping the other big change that we know 100% is coming with 4 power level brackets. Many of these cards would be fine to unban and then placed at certain power level brackets. Whether or not you like the bracket system is a whole other conversation, but discussing unbans and which bracket they could fit in, if unbanned, would make a lot of sense to me.
Sorry guys, but any price/value argument you could make for a reason to NOT unban a card is a moot argument when stuff like Gaea's Cradle, Mishra's Workshop, Timetwister, etc are legal already. Because saying 'well if these cards were legal they'd be really expensive' is such a 'so what?' argument against them. Remember, you can always have that chat with the table about running proxies, but if they aren't legal in the format that's a totally different conversation.
This whole conversation is making me face a lot of things that I held as beliefs that I realize aren't as common as I thought.
For example, self regulation is a terrible excuse to not ban or unban something. If anything, it should be a clear indication of what should be handled. If you already have to ask permission to play a deck (i.e. Tergrid example) it's effectively banned, but it's worse than that because players should expect to be allowed to play things that aren't banned. If you have a degenerate thing that's on a casual banlists, you're at least not under the friction of not being allowed to play the thing you expected to build and play.
Also, I think that the old school "signpost" philosophy was a bad idea out of the gate. Banning a single example of a toxic play pattern but leaving the rest alone, just leaves people who would do that already with 1 fewer options, and judged for doing them. Frankly I think that this is the best use for a hypothetical bracket system, leave all the cards of certain play patterns in upper tiers to leave them out of casual play, and put the A & B of unfun synergies (i.e. wheels and wheel lockouts like Hullbreacher/narset) in different tiers, so you can use a more normal side of the effect without getting up tiered, you know, every one of those conversations where you have to go "but I'm not *that* kind of 'blank' deck".
And candidly, I think the history of loose banlists philosophy has led to commander groups having a different philosophy than other formats in an unhealthy way, because I think that the constant calls for unbans for whatever niche use, without regards to the overall health of the format. Hell, the amount of people who had major outcries to this last ban as opposed to just saying "yeah that makes sense" astonished me. Any decision will always have people complain and terrible overreaction, but the idea that acceptance wasn't the majority opinion blew me away. Especially because I genuinely think the banlist could safely be two or three times larger and the game would be better for it.
But I guess people have huge emotional ties to a lot of this format, so I guess I get it
I'd triple the ban list if left to my own devices.
Whenever I see people start up this conversation of unbanning cards every couple months, I am constantly reminded how bonkers peoples' brains are in Commander. I have had to deal with people refusing to self regulate and have any self-control. People already shove all the most expensive staples, rhystic, smothering Tithe, mana vault, cyclonic rift, dockside (when legal), etc. at my lgs. If any of these cards like primeval Titan or paradox engine were legal, they will shove those in instantly for their casual "midpower" decks. Obviously of it were up to me, I would ban at least a dozen more cards.
I couldn't agree more. For a format spanning the entirety of mtg history, the ban list for commander is painfully and problematically short, considering what is not banned. The concept of "casual commander" wasn't kept that well by the RC, imo.
Humans are characteristically inanely selfish, and rules are often approached as a "rules for thee but not for me!". This isn't just Magic but applies everywhere in life. "Ugh! I have road rage now that this driver merged infront of me without using their turn signal!" ... Yet proceeds to not use their turn signal before merging 90% of the time they're driving themselves. "Ugh! I'm upset that my partner was texting some other guy who was asking to meet her for coffee and never talked to me about it!" ... But they'd have no issues if a very attractive person started flirting with them.
I'm personally someone that will impose rules/restrictions on myself to set the example because I can only expect others to do things as long as I'm also doing them as well. I will stop at every stop sign, regardless, because I'm sick and tired of others running stop signs. Etc.
To bring this discussion back around to MtG, this is employed in how I deckbuild. Playing against fast mana sucks when you didn't draw into fast mana. Everyone's a lot more level playing field when 2 mana ramp or 2 mana rocks are cheapest mana acceleration you can do (outside of wrath-susceptible elves/birds). My decks all remove Sol Ring, even precons, to be substituted for a land or some other 2 mana rock. Imo, the format would be a lot better if 2 mana ramp was the baseline, and all decks of all colors have relatively similar mana acceleration potential. (Think of this as employing a highway speed limit in MtG)
There's already too much mana and ramp and acceleration going around in commander, and unfortunately it's consolidated into a handful of legal staples that would otherwise go in every deck except for cost/intentional lowering of power. In other formats, when certain mechanics get too prevalent/strong/or metagame defining, bans should be hit towards those cards to reduce their consistency and prevalence in the metagame.
Rhystic is _exactly_ an anti-social card. Just paying the one to pacify it, suddenly one player doesn't pay the one, cause _their_ cool thing is "worth it, guys." Alongside the fact that it draws a ton of cards, but not in one fell swoop, it gives worse players an inaccurate picture of who's the threat at the table. I think it's by far the most ban-worthy card out there today (even moreso than sol ring).
yeah, rhystic kind of completely sucks the air out of the room for a commander game. at least for mystic remora it hits a narrower type and pinches you out a little on mana if you wanna keep it for multiple turns, but the problem for both is even if you try to destroy it, you either go further down on mana or go down a card. unfun even in the best case scenario
Don't forget to take its best friend smothering tithe. I've literally never seen anyone pay the 2, but I've seen many people draw more cards into it
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Rhystic Study. Yea, there are people out there to stupid to pay the one. Sometimes it's my Rhystic Study and I love those adorable idiots, sometimes it's an opponents and I want the throw the jack ass that keeps casting into it a sock party, but that's just how it goes sometimes. As far as the complaint about "do you pay the one" causing some sort of game delay, that BS. It's a fraction of a second to say, it does nothing to slow the game down. The people who hate it really only hate it because they don't own one and are unwilling to proxy.
@@jacobalbert2603 I own plenty of copies and still hate it. It's just bad for the format.
@@RyanEglitis
I own zero copies and it's completely fine. You not liking it is not the same as it being bad for the format.
Players have a much easier time advocating FOR themselves rather than AGAINST themselves. When a game piece like stasis locks people out of the game it is easy for the table to say "Hey, I did not have fun playing against that. Let's not play it next game." Boom! rule 0 success! This stands in contrast however to Primeval Titan, which is overly strong, but would require the person who is playing prime time to regulate themselves -> "I did too much that game and my opponents could not keep up. I should not play this card next game." This is a statement I have heard maybe a single digit number of times.
Psychologically, I've seen people be more likely to advocate for regulation when they are being slowed, but it requires a level of self restraint to advocate for slowing themselves. This is pretty normal and not something to admonish, it just means that for the health of the format and the community we probably need some oversight ya know?
Oh also if I was a biorhythm player I'd just play Blinkmoth/Inkmoth Nexus and win after essentially any wrath :/
@@nathanstruble8587 Would you though? I'm not saying people wouldn't do that, but that feels like the kinda thing most people would do once and realizes how boring it is and never do it again. Not everyone mind you, and I still don't think it's a good addition to the format, but it also feels like the kinda thing that after a hot first month you'd go a decade without seeing again.
@@danaroach29 oh whoops, yeah most certainly not. That was meant to be a hypothetical bringing up how easy it is to abuse, but I don't actually know anyone that would do that haha.
It kind of sits in the Craterhoof category. One of the strongest and easiest ways to win, but sort of... "flavorless"?
@@nathanstruble8587 And yeah, people don't exactly self-regulate themselves with Hoof, either. Fair points.
@@nathanstruble8587 You played a combo involving 8+ mana. You deserve to win.
it's amazing how different your conclusions are vs the command zone
Yeah most of this is subjective. It's why a ban list for casual play is not a great solution. I think we should have a ban list for competitive play only. And players could reference the competitive ban list to inform building their casual decks. Bottom line: players who are jerks will always find cards to stomp other players and say, "hey it's not banned so it's fine." No, it's not fine to be a jerk in casual play. The ban list also gives cover to jerk players, imo, because they'll just pick cards not on the ban list. We can't ban every single card that warps the game. Armageddon is not banned but no one plays it, for example. We don't need to ban Armageddon because people hate it and don't accept it in casual play.
@@punkypinko2965Yeah, them talking about the Tergrid player is a perfect example of why most of these things should be unbanned. Some people really like these cards despite knowing what they feel like and most of those people will ask before doing something that others might hate. My favorite deck is Eldrazi titan tribal and I ask before playing it and warn people what it's like if they agree before asking you f they're sure. That's not going to suddenly change just because I get to have Emrakul in the deck. The majority of people don't take pleasure in nonconsensually playing things that others will find unfun, even if they enjoy it. I think Braids or Emrakul are safer unbans because people know what that stuff feels like while something like Primetime doesn't feel awful to play against so people will run it despite it often propelling people so far ahead that no one can catch up. Even then, I'd still be for unbanning that too.
The command zone were not playing commander before some of these cards got banned.
@@herpderp66not so well informed my friend… they have been playing magic for 20+ years
@@Ivarrson Commander has not existed for 20 years. They even say in the their video they have not played with Emrakul and Recurring Nightmare. The command zone only got into commander because it is the format their channel gained traction. JLK even explained that on the apology video.
I have been playing commander since 2010. I have played with all these banned cards. It is very easy to tell when some one hasn't played with these cards. But go on how "not informed" I am.
As somebody who usually leans towards less bans this so far has been the best conversation for counterpoints to keep cards banned - however I think a lot of this discussion is being made without keeping the new tiers in mind. Biorhythm would suck to have to worry about in lower tiered decks, having to always keep creatures around just in case - but it would be an extremely fair wincon in a tier 4 setting where every player is slinging the most busted spells. lots of these cards in conversation can be applied this way
That is an excellent point, but I think it depends on the tiers system being both widely adopted and well respected. There are enough new players that don’t know enough about the banned list as it is, and I can see a lot of less informed players - which is the majority of players tbh - not recognizing the tiers of those haymaker cards
Even ignoring the tiers, some of the cards were banned many years ago, and it's a very different format now. For example, the argument I've hard about Recurring was "it becomes the only card they play". So what?! If that's how the person (me for example, lol) wants to play, why is that an issue? It's not like it would suddenly hit the table in every single pod (even if it got reprinted).
I'm not against the fast mana bans, but the EDHRec crew seem overly cautions about some of these cards coming of f the list.
Since we don't have the specifics of the teir system yet we tried to do this without taking it into consideration, but depending on how it shakes out that's a fair point.
It's hard to keep the new tiers in mind for a current conversation when we don't know what the new system will look like. We got a rough structure but Gavin and Aaron both said pretty explicitly that it's a very early version and likely will change.
Biorhythm is not hi power card it'll only get used in low power to mid power games were its a some what decent win condition. In high power its to over costed and the other 3 players are all likely gonna be sitting on answers to it.
If a brand new player has a banned as commander card in the command zone, I very seriously doubt they’re doing the broken thing that makes that card banned as the commander anyways (considering they aren’t very experienced). In my personal experience, if a newer player has a banned card, the other players at the table will let them know it’s banned for future reference and will either let them play it that game anyways or ask them to use it as a basic land if it’s going to make for a completely miserable game. In the scenario they’re asked to use it as a basic land, it’s usually explained to them why it would end up being a miserable experience for the table.
For the "why do we even need a banlist" argument: games need updates. Especially one as complex as TCGs. In other games if some unintended interaction would break a game, go infinite, or generally ruin a play experience, it gets patched/erratad/banned/etc. As stated, if your playgroup is cool with it then that's great for you, but as a BASELINE commander must have some amount of curation as a casual format. Some cards were never meant to be used with 4 players (Rhystic Study), some cards are frankly just badly designeds (Jeweled Lotus, clearly), and others are just too easily abusable. Cards fitting these criteria are unhealthy for the baseline of the format, and even if some people would like to play with everything including the Power 9 I do not believe it would better the game. Your local soccer league can do away with offsides if you want, but it's asinine to want that for all of soccer as a whole.
Card games have the unfortunate added baggage of cards having real world monetary value tied to them, so bans or updates can feel bad, but in my opinon that should never be a factor in considering the health of a format, ANY format, not just commander. At the end of the day, it's cardboard with ink. And if WotC's track record designing cards specifically for commander is anything to go off of, get comfortable with proxying.
30:24 Matt's point about he would rather see proactive "fun" cards(Primetime, Prophet) rather than denial cards (Upheaval) is exactly why they should stay banned or wait until we see if players actually take up the bracket system. Joey's point that I completely agree with is that those fun cards are the ones where the banlist is holding back the most people from playing, so it would have a much larger impact on the format. I think people should be able to play with Primetime, but only if when I sit down to the table and people say "I dont want to play against bracket 4 decks", we dont have to see any primetimes.
Yeah, proactive cards are the ones people tend to have the least self control with how they use them.
@@danaroach29
The whole bracket system is a joke. My Teysa Karlov deck isn't running cards that would be beyond a 2 and it will flat out destroy most mid level casual tables. Flip side, my morph deck happens to have a couple bracket 4 type cards and isn't very strong. The idea that a few cards suddenly makes your deck play at a certain level just isn't reasonable. All it will ever do is cause frustration
Edit: actually meant to be a reply to Orpheos9
About Library being banned, while Tabernacle or Bazaar being legal: the latter two are very archetype specific (stax and graveyard strategies, specifically), while Library can be thrown into any deck at almost no opportunity cost.
Sure, but even being universally playable Library is probably less powerful than Bazaar or Tabby. The decks where those two are good they're straight busted. If I put Library in every deck I own it probably still draws me less cards less often than War Room. Still, I get your point. Ubiquity is never a good thing.
I think Library is kinda not worth playing in most decks. Holding exactly 7 cards isn't as easy as you'd think. I think it's safe to unban, though I do know it would spike the price. I just don't think anyone is required to go out and get one - their deck will be fine without.
Glad you guys went over things to add. I think that's a much better discussion to be having when we are finally trying to fix some long standing issues. Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe would be great to see leave. More fast mana and even Demonic Tutor I wouldn't mind exiting.
So many games would be less annoying without Rhystic and Tithe.
This is where Brackets could come in and set them to level three or four and you can play at one ot two. I'd likely see powerful cards in those brackets, they're just not as toxic as those cards
Joey is talking soooo much sense here. Couldn't believe on some other popular commander channels they are saying to unban Biorhythm and Coalition Victory... insanity. You are SO RIGHT about Biorhythm. You do the "right" thing and Wrath a huge board, and the green player untaps, plays a Llanowar Elves, and Biorhythms to win GG.
Idk, Coalition Victory seems fine. As far as "win the game" cards go, it is SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than cards like Thassas Oracle and Laboratory Maniac, as those are cheaper, in only one color, and the condition of emptying your library is very easy if you actually try to do it.
Coalition Victory, on the other hand, costs EIGHT mana, is sorcery speed, requires you to be playing all five colors, and is VERY vulnerable to a wide range of instant speed removal...basically any effect that can be played at instant speed that can either remove creatures, lands, and/or other permanents that grant colors/ land types (like Leyline of the Guildpact) has a decent chance to completely fizzle this eight mana spell.
But yea, if you ramp up to eight mana, have a Dryad of the Ilysian Grove and Transguild Courier in play, cast Coalition Victory, and nobody at the table has a Counterspell or ability to destroy a creature, artifact, or enchantment at instant speed, you win. But if we're counting on our opponents being potatoes, there's a lot of other *better* cards you could use for that much mana to win the game.
@@sgjuxta I agree, too easy to stop. If you cast this, and no one has ANYTHING to stop you, your opponents deserve to lose.
@@sgjuxtaAgreed and people are forgetting the fact that most people will play a card like Coalition Victory one time, go "huh, that was unsatisfying", and remove it from their decks. It's neither terribly strong nor terribly fun and keeping a card banned because it's not very fun is just weird. There are so many unfun cards to play against and unfun cards to play that they could never ban them all. It's like if they had banned Approach of the Second Son and people were like "that cards boring and unsatisfying, keep it banned". Who decides what's boring and unsatisfying?
I really don’t have an issue with that; that’s an insanely specific situation. That means no one had a Shock in hand. Also, that means the green player had none lands out - I’m assuming that the Elves player isn’t playing much artifact ramp. Also, Elves decks run pretty low land counts, so having nine lands in play would be rather difficult for them.
The easy answer is just to put CV in bracket 2, and Biorhythm in bracket 3. Then nobody would care at all about them being unbanned.
Don't think it went unnoticed that Dana mentioned WotC making decisions in the interests of making a profit and then you flashed "Cache Grab" on the screen. Well played, edhrec lol.
I would love Prophet of Kruphix unbanned
Panoptic mirror combo can be played with 5 mana actually at the risk of exposing it for a turn cycle. You can imprint on your next upkeep in response to the trigger
22:00 re: Panoptic mirror, I know the optimal play is to put an extra turn spell on it and win the game, but the funniest play I've seen was somebody putting an armageddon on it in a "rule 0 deck"
The best way to evaluate the ban list is:
If you want to play the card, but would be miserable sitting across from it, it needs to stay out of the format.
If the card warps the format into "who can control it or cast/abuse it the most times per game", it needs to stay banned. Prime Time, Sylvan, and Emrakul warped the format into who can bribery first, cast clones, or flicker the most. These need to stay out
Following that logic, we should ban all stax.
@@GabahulkI actually think the older stax cards like stasis and winter or should probably be banned because they warp the game completely for only 2 mana, but there are plenty of stax cards that are fair like the Thalias and Rule of Law
People generally aren't good at thinking of others, which is why I personally think the RC did a good job being EDH's parents and setting bedtime rules that we might not have followed on our own. I also recognize that may come across as condescending and not be a popular opinion.
@@Gabahulk There's absolutely people who think you casting a five mana removal spell is stax.
@@Gabahulk If your deck falls apart to stax you are not building decks that draw you enough cards. Please stop laying your games in the hands of the top 15 cards of your library
the braids argument can easily be fixed by wizards bringing back banned as commander and making banned as companion for lutri
also, if braids was legal you could just not play fast mana or rituals and play her on curve, shes genuinely not as bad as people make her out to be unless shes dark ritual'ed out
I've made that same exact argument for a handful of years now. I understand Braids being too oppressive when a deck is purposefully built around getting it out turn 1 or 2 consistently, but it's never seemed like an issue in the 99. Same with Lutri; there's already spell copy creatures that cost 2 mana like Doublecast, so even though I understand how it would be unfair for every RU deck to have an always accessible spell copy effect, I don't think it's too powerful to have access to it in the 99 since there are already Commander legal cards that do that for as little as 2 mana.
I would love Braids to come back. I don't even want to run her (or Tergrid) as Commanders, but I have decks where she would fit right in and not really improve the deck or make it more salt inducing. As others have said, if she's the Commander just "nope" the deck out or if it's a friend, let them be a jerk every few months and get a game in with it!
I don't think you really need banned as Commander. Braids as a commander isn't problematic at higher power levels so just throw her in bracket 2 or something.
@@imaginarymatter exactly, if you turn 1-2 braids then you are playing a higher power deck, and if you play braids on turn 3+ then thats just a medium paced game, rule 0 talk can fix 99% of issues caused with braids
I'd like to bring up a point about craterhoof vs. Biorythm. Craterhoof has more points of interaction, this is true. But it also has more synergy and methods of breaking it. You can sneak attack it out, reanimate it, blink it, ect. Biorythm is much harder to abuse. While I would love a world with no ban list, I'm not itching to get it unbanned. I just wanted to bring forth a little food for thought.
40:22 Happily ever after is the care you are describing as an enchantment coalition victory and as someone who runs it i can say the interaction keeps it in check
I wanted to point out the reason ondu spiritdancer is in the deck is because it combos with secret arcade to give you as many enchantment etbs as you want + an infinite army if you won't draw yourself out. Otherwise you are correct about the other interactions with other rooms.
I agree with Dana's description of Commanders being dodgeable.
I am occasionally a wise old man. Generally I'm just an old man, but on occasion I'm wise.
@@ethanglaeser9239 only if you aré lucky enought to get to pick who do you play with, some of us aré not
@@FernandoGonzalez-hu3idagreed. Sometimes a single pod is playing and I need to wait around and watch until their game is done to join, you’re not going to argue about what everyone can play because you have been waiting for an hour.
@@FernandoGonzalez-hu3id I mean, I get that. If you feel strongly enough though, you just don't play. Sometimes no Magic is better than some Tergrid.
@@ethanglaeser9239except when your nearest LGS is a couple hours drive and you can only play once every 2 or 3 months, at that point no magic means no magic at all.
I live in a small town with no magic scene, and have only played 3 times this year, i am probably in the minority, most people in my situation would just quick the hobby, but between us and the new kids that dont know every commander, there are enough people that will not dodge a Braids for the ban to be worth it.
Biorhythm "looming over every boardwipe" is a take I haven't heard yet. I think it won't actually be popular if unbanned. It sounds like the threat that it poses to creatureless decks is a flip-flop of the currently common pattern I see where people show up to play a creature focused game, but a spellslinger deck shows up and plays on an axis they can't interact with.
I think that the 8+ mv sorceries on the banned list could be placed in a high bracket rather than banned. The tables that are cool with combos, stax, and generally playing a tightly focused gameplan probably won't lose many games or much of their fun to a card like Sway of the Stars. In general, I don't think I'd see Biorhythm any more often than I see Worldfire today.
Also, I think that silver-bordered brackets as described: probably okay, could be okay, and probably not okay should work pretty well if "probably okay" is just the cards that work in the rules without any trouble. Hydradoodle from Unstable pretty much went on to become Neverwinter Hydra. Why not legalize Hydradoodle? Crow Storm is 3 mana for Storm Crow tokens equal to the storm count: based on power level, it's a little lower than Brain Freeze since BF has Underworld Breach combos. If these cards are adequately separated from the absurd, then it should be fine.
Thank you for revisiting this, after a few weeks of perspective.
After seeing many other discussions on the ban list, IMHO, this has been the best. It's not just a simple too powerful or not too powerful discussion. Addressing the purpose of the ban list, the different areas a change could affect, and how people who have set play groups are impacted was a refreshing change.
Some players actually do enjoy silver border cards.
Yet Another AEther Vortex is the GOAT
That expropriate dynamic has totally happened to me before. A kind of kingmaking
Prophet of Kruphix is fine to unban. She dies to Lightning Bolt
Ill say im happy to leave everything banned. Maybe alter lutri to banned as companion. Otherwise i dont see the format improving if you unban anything. I say this as someone who is gradually building a liliana lore deck and would want to have Griselbrand in the 99 of it. But i think the format is better without them and i can always ask a table if I can play with a banned card and just use a substitute card if the group declines.
My personal thought is zero cards on the ban list make the format better as a whole if unbanned.
@@danaroach29 Yeah, I agree.
Real talk about Panoptic Mirror- I would be perfectly happy with it banned or unbanned, but if you want a good play experience, the spells being imprinted should really be less than CMC4. And it would be so much more fun too. Casting Lightning Bolt every turn feels good. Casting Plumb the Forbidden every turn feels good. Casting Brokers' Charm every turn feels good. I see it similarly to how I feel about Nadu: it's an interesting design space but that doesn't make it okay to play as written. Printing a new version that's far more fair and far more fun would be fantastic.
There's a lot of decks where people are already not imprinting counterspells or whatever onto Isochron, despite it probably being objectively strong in their deck. Would Mirror self-regulate in a similar way? Who knows. I agree almost no spell you imprint on it is fun to see every turn.
They should either unban Gifts Ungiven or ban Intuition, and given the Reserve List issues you've mentioned, I prefer the ban to the unban in this case.
I'm down with consistency although I lean unban.
The silver border joke makes me feel like there's a perfect space for an Acorn Tier List. A bunch of Un-set cards would be downright good for Commander, but some really deserve the klaxons and warnings before letting them into any general format.
The rules committee was seemingly working on basically this with their silver bordered project. Marking every silver border card at different tiers to make them easier to ask to include. Sounded like this is a bit more on the back burner since the wotc takeover though
I would be okay banning Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe.
Great discussion
Primetime has the paradox engine problem of a lot of people misunderstanding that it's not banned because you win the game with it. It's banned because you built it to take 40 minute turns that don't do anything.
I think we are going to see upwards of a dozen unbans, all with the caveat "but we're putting them in Bracket 4 along with other currently legal cards with similar effects."
Something like "An expensive spell that wins the game or invalidates a large part of the game that has occurred before it is cast often ends up not being too powerful, but feels unsatisfactory. With this in mind, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, and Expropriate are all Bracket 4 cards."
Or "A large expensive creature that might be fine when its cast for its full casting cost, but in practice usually gets cheated into play somehow and has an outsized effect for what those cheat cards (Sneak Attack, Through the Breach, Reanimate) should provide to align with a satisfying game state. With this in mind, Jin Gitaxis Core Augur, Vorinclex, Emrakul, Iona, Griselbrand, and are Bracket 4." Given that the Phyrexian Praetors tend to be high on the salt scale in multiple incarnations, I would not be surprised to see something like listed two Jin Gitaxises in their statement and making a joke to hang a lantern on it.
That is not necessarily what I want to happen, but its what I think is likely. I think honestly though, I am likely to be one of the players that likes their bracket system and would end up not playing in Bracket 4 games anyway, so it probably wouldn't make much difference to me whether the cards are banned or bracket 4.
The reason Wizards did the Acorn thing was so that they could use Black Border cards to fill out the draft environment. The fact that a whole bunch of Silver Border mechanics are just Black Border now makes the "SIlver Playables" appealing. Uktabi Kong, Krark's Other Thumb, and Hydradoodle could be printed in a standard set. Black Border Dexterity, Ante, and External Reference cards are already banned. The issue is the fringe cards that aren't immediately obvious to most players, but a judge call or scryfall check sorts all of those pretty easily.
Silver border inclusion is one of the many things the RC getting nuked cost me personally
At last the three of you together 🥳🥳🥳
Number 1 thing they should do is bring back the restricted/banned as list so cards like lutri can be used in 99 and comand zone as well as cards that are to strong as commander but ok in 99 can be allowed like braids.
I think the missing context in this discussion is possible unbannings in combination with a bracket system. I think some of the less egregious cards would be fine when assigned bracket 3 or bracket 4 so that players have the opportunity to self select themselves into bracket 2 or bracket 3 if they want to avoid certain affects like Armageddon or, for instance Rhystic Study (which should be at least a bracket 3 card imo).
I'm super looking forward to Bracket 1/2/3 tournaments and players figuring out what is best at each level and the bracket lists being adjusted in response.
@@user-pr6jx5hz9m this is a great point that I don't think anyone is really focusing on right now.
Acceleration pieces like Jeweled Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Dockside can all lead to fun game experiences if everyone is on board. They can end games early, but you can always shuffle up again. Placing these in bracket 4 is the perfect compromise between allowing people to play with them and keeping them out of most casual games. If you don't want to play against these cards, there is an official mechanism to decline. I feel like "Normal Commander" will end up around bracket 2 with bracket 3 being "High Power Causal" and bracket 4 being "Let's play busted stuff".
A lot of talk about how coalition victory and biorhythm can never be unbanned, 0 talk about how thoracle combo achieves the exact same thing for 3 to 7 mana. Either ban thoracle or unban rhythm and victory.
And Oracle didn't cost you eight mana across all five colors only to be stopped by a disenchant on your Leyline of the Guildpact. I'm convinced Coalition Victory is banned because, at the time it was banned, the people running the banlist were allergic to removal...like seriously. It costs EIGHT mana, and every single color has the ability to MEANINGFULLY counter it, not just blue.
The argument against banning Thoracle is that it seems to be a card that people have largely self-regulated to just cEDH tables, and the worry would be that as clearly not cEDH cards Rhythm and CV wouldn't have that level of pressure. Personally I'd ban Thoracle myself too, but that's me.
@@sgjuxta It's largely been memory-holed because the old EDH website/forum is gone, but something key to this is that the statements from the RC back then carried this theme that they couldn't ban every powerful card, but that they focused instead on banning the subset of jank cards that casual players would think would be fun to play, but which the RC knew would actually not be fun to play. They had a mission to save casual players from their own ignorance.
@@sgjuxta "allergic to removal" ah yeah i forgot triomes and 5 color commanders dont exist, my bad. the entire time i play the game i should remove some guys commander every single turn in every single pod because that totally doesnt lead to horrible play patterns and drain you of cards to deal with the other people at the table. i am very smart and take all my arguments from the twitter pages of hardstuck plat arena players.
12:00 I think Wizards usually just refers to "accessibility" of cards like the ones on the reserve list. So I don't think they'd struggle at all with saying why those are banned
Gotta say, I loved your discussion on this more than any others I’ve seen so far. I don’t personally subscribe to the idea that a smaller banlist is automatically a better one, so for me cards that are already banned have a very high bar to clear for unbanning. Primeval Titan was on my list more because it would be interesting and flashy while maybe not being broken than because I thought it would be fine. I’m way closer to “no unbans” than any particular card, and I appreciate that you seem to be in a similar boat.
Also, I think it’s work noting that rewarding death threats by unbanning Lotus or Crypt would be an enormous mistake, both for the present and the future. I sincerely hope WotC had enough concern over the safety of their people not to give awful people the message that death threats work.
Over a long enough timeline I'm gonna guess $ > doing the right thing, but I guess we'll see.
Forcing cards that people want unbanned to stay banned because of a very small minority of the community is something i'm very much against. Unban those cardsI like them, and I didn't give anyone death threats.
@@cablefeed3738 you have posted the same comment three times in a row lil bro pipe down there
@cablefeed3738 do you have proof of this being a very small minority of people who want them still banned. I haven't met anyone who wants them off and I travel a lot
@@trashman6829 no
Thr ban list is and should reflect moving away from the extremes.
When we engage with any entertainment media where two or more people interact be it video games, sports, debates, card games, and even when we watch others we dont want to see it move to the extremes. We want it to be moderately paced, moderately balanced, to build up to a crescendo, and to watch all sides give it their all.
Its why we go easy on the person who gets land screwed, we dog pile on the person who ramps ahead.
We dont want to see games be over too quick or last too long. The goldilocks and the three bears theorem.
The ban list can be summed up as:
- incompatible with the format.
- Too much resource accrual (card draw, mana)
- too much resource denial (counterspells, discard, land deatruction, stax, tax)
for too little resource input and/or too quickly.
I think that is a broad generality of what everyone who plays commander want. There are a decent bit of tables that are still casual that like high power. People who like games being fast, or having huge splash wins, etc that are still casual players. Heck i know of multiple youtube personalities, people at my LSG (yes anecdotal but this is to provide evidence to the overall point) and my own friend group; who enjoy fast mana because it means shorter games and opportunities to get more games in.
@TheIceman101418 thats true.
@TheIceman101418 That might be true, but as pointed out in this Video, the ban list is most relevant for the average game between players who don't have the time or don't want to take the effort of talking through a huge amount of individual cards toget to common ground. Individual, personal playgroups can allow/disallow any and all cards.
I think the argument most actually mean for things on the ban list is often less "This shouldn't be on the list" and more "Why is this on the list when this other, worse thing isn't?". Or alternatively "This similar thing isn't that bad and isn't on the list, therefore this one shouldn't be either". Coalition Victory gets a lot of attention for that because there are many win-the-game combos that can be done sooner in the game, so doing it for 8 mana doesn't seem "that bad". However, I don't think folks really think about why playing against combo can be engaging and that not all combo is created equal, and that's on top of knowing when you're playing against combo in the first place, something that many don't disclose and what has led to folks developing a bad taste in their mouth about it. Needing to kill a specific player's commander and/or lands just in case they're running the low-opportunity cost win condition isn't something every 5 colour commander player should be subjected to.
I think it quite unfortunate that the idea of Silver Border being legal at all is immediately met with assuming the silliest cards will be allowed, rather than actually knowing about what the project was about, which would basically put the cards into buckets of "basically black border" (like dice rolling cards), "silly but fine" (like fractions), and "probably shouldn't be played with (like Gotcha), which would let folks bring some silly like one could bring some planechase without needing to worry about things getting TOO silly.
1:00:36 I’m with Dana 100% here. When I was going through my deck-building phase I almost never put Rhystic Study in decks for two reasons:
1) I knew how annoying it would be to have to listen to “Do you pay the 1?” incessantly and I didn’t want to be that guy.
2) I didn’t want to have to keep track of every other player’s every spell in order to efficiently play the card. That’s tedious and more work than I want to put into a game.
I know conspiracies are effectively banned just by the way the format works, but I would love to see design space that plays with these sort of things. A commander that lets you choose a conspiracy or two to use, or gives a tiny wishboard. Perhaps combined with companion style deck building restrictions. Eminence at the deck building stage.
I always liked companion conceptually, as well as stuff like the vanguard cards or Sensei cards from the old dbz score game(basically game effecting emblems that controlled your sideboard size, with the most powerful giving you a tiny sideboard, and weaker effects giving you more options) so I’d really enjoy playing with these sort of things more
I really hate the argument of "we dont want people to have to take cards out of their deck if they rule 0 it into their private playgroup". If we really think the card is not healthy, then they can deal with it for the better of the rest of the community. If we have to rule 0 to avoid hundreds of socially unacceptable cards, they can rule 0 to include a couple cards into their private group and be forced to ask for permission if they want to play that deck at a pub.
Silver border is a great example of how this works. You even say in the episode, you dont want to see these, but you are happy for people to rule 0 it into their own playgroups.
I really think they should hold off on unbans until they see how the bracket system shakes out. If it gets good uptake then they can start unbanning things like prime time and gifts ungiven and put them in a higher bracket.
My guess would be we don't see any changes until the bracket system is in play for a bit, and to give some breathing room between whatever they change and the events of last month.
Additional comment because this is way more significant and important than my previous comment about the RL. WotC cannot unban the cards that just got banned, because that tells the community death threats and doxxing works. Their hands are tied on that one for a very long time.
I feel that the reluctance of using points system for commander boils down to the concern where the people in charged do not want Commander to outright cannibalize the Canadian Highlander.
Either we should bring back the seperate list that was known as "Banned as a Commander" which still allowed players that had a very synergistic creature card, to still be able to use it... but not be able to cast it 100% of the games played.
Or, they need to just outright unban my boy- Golos, Tireless Pilgrim. I have a deck built around Domain, Converge & Sunburst & he is the perfect commander.
Ondu Spiritdancer would be far better in something like Estrid where you can create more Mask tokens or copy what ever you need most that minute.
Agreed. I have OS in my Yenna, Redtooth Regent deck, and she’s a powerhouse there. Rooms just aren’t her thing.
Marina is played as an enchantments commander, but she's primarily a rooms commander. The challenge is there just for the people playing rooms. Outside of rooms, Ondu Spiritdancer is good in the deck.
I've said it before and I will keep saying it: the worst move WotC could make as their first order of business would be to kill Sheldon's legacy. I would accept changing things around to bring back "banned as Commander" and to add "banned as Companion". If they don't do those though, the ban list doesn't need to change at all.
And the second worse move they already made. The surviving NDC controversy will go down as almost as notorious as their attempt to change the D&D creator license.
I legitimately do not understand Joey's argument against Biorhythm and/or Coalition Victory. I fail to see how these cards would "hang over people's head" for deck building or games. I don't immediately think that I will run into a Thoracle + Demonic Consultation just because someone sitting across from me happens to be playing a UB(+) deck.
Because Thoracle is so closely associated with cEDH, that pressure has in large part kept it away from casual tables. That pressure wouldn't exist on cards like CV or Biorhythm, so they might be a problem at tables in a way Thoracle isn't. I'm not sure I necessarily think that pressure does enough to keep Thoracle in check, and I personally would ban it with extreme prejudice, but I do get the logic of the argument.
They're insanely weak 8 mana sorceries that under certain conditions are combos. Every single combo in the game is the same thing so I don't understand why these ones are outlawed when I could go on to list several thousand (Especially if you're in 5c for CV) stronger combos that would be seen as casual. People just hate combos
On Rhystic study and self control, this is a reason I like the bracket system at least conceptually. Right now it really is so easy to just throw it into any blue deck, but If Rhystic is say t3 then it makes me step back and consider if it really makes sense in the deck. If I say my deck is typical vampires t1 with a thematic vampiric tutor, people will be more ok with it then random t1 with Rhystic
Yessss I never thought I’d hear Eddie Izzard being mentioned in MTG but this was the crossover I needed!
Look over there, there’s a badger with a gun!
Je dois partir maintenant, parce-que ma grand-mère est flambée.
Any unbans need to be dependent on what's placed in what bracket. It's perfectly acceptable that something like Primeval Titan gets unbanned if cards like: "Field of the Dead" et al. go into bracket 3-4 for example. The issue with blanket statement WotC shouldn't unban: "insert banned card name" is that you're only looking at the card through the lens of current Commander. There will be a future bracket system that will be introduced into the format which could likely allow for a number of unbans. Primeval Titan is likely fine if it's in say bracket 1-2 and Field of the Dead, et al. is in bracket 3-4, etc.
12:00 Acknowledging that without mentioning the secondary market means blaming the Reserve List. Roughly the same reason: "these cards are too hard to come by, and we can't reprint them."
So can anyone explain why Rofellos and Tolarian Academy is banned? Because when I look at those cards I really can’t see why that’s different from a Serra’s Sanctum or a Gaea’s Cradle
I think the Coalition Victory argument is a little weak. Sure, with Leyline of the Guildpact it can win with two cards (and a creature on the field)… for 12 mana. I can do the same thing with Vito and Exquisite Blood for 8 in mono black and one of the pieces potentially in the command zone. I feel as though there’s no more reason to worry about a Coalition Victory in every five color deck than any other two card combo in any other deck.
It wouldn’t even be in every 5c decks. No one is putting Coalition Victory in the Ur-Dragon, Slivers, or Jodah. The 5c-Eldrazi legend has the ability of Devoid (and therefore doesn’t have any color). And while Kenrith, Esika, Go-Shintai, Urtet, and Sisay have 5c-identity, they are only a single color or no color in terms of what color(s) they are.
seeing Dockside with a "banned" stamp never fails to bring a big smile on my face, even with the harsh consequences that decision had (though said consequences weren't that much about dockside)
I love my Expropriate! I am very Happen that there is a german version now (Zwangsenteignung). Just a great finisher in Spellslinger decks. Play it and copy it 2 times and than you just „win“. Thats so much better than playing a 30 min storm turn and maybe even cant win.
It's interesting how hands off the EDHREC Cast is being here. They repeatedly say "if we were Wizards" and "we personally wouldn't unban any cards".
I mean, I get it. Sometimes it's best to leave things alone.
Rofellos should not be unbanned. It'll ruin to many people's day and games.
Turn 3 consistent 6 mana is way to much
It's interesting to see the prime philosophical difference between ya'll and Command Zone's take. The underlying take I see here is that this panel largely does not trust the community and lower level tables to self regulate. I personally do not agree but I get being cynical towards people having self control.
I think the numbers on things like Armageddon, and land destruction as a whole is just one of many examples Prime time is really not a major issue when compared to things that are illegal. Things with high Salt scores usually have a relativley low play rates, not all of them but a good majority of the top20 for sure
This is my opinion and mine alone, so take it with a huge grain of salt; the difference I think is the CZ folks generally play in a pretty hermetically sealed environment. As far as I can tell Josh isn't showing up at a random LGS in northern Minnesota or rural Ohio and jamming games with complete strangers. That is something we do, and that impacts how we view things like bans. That's not a criticism of them either mind you. Josh would get mobbed if he did that, and his life doesn't lend itself to doing that, or spending all day at a free play table at a MagicCon, etc. But it does impact how they see things like the avg game of EDH.
@@danaroach29 That is a very good point Dana that I did not think about. That does help me to understand your take, Joey and Matt's as well. i personally have seen a lot of self control from players in my LGS and personal group. I also might be self projecting as I do consider how cards would effect my play group when adding them to the deck, doesnt mean that is true of most casual tables. Gives me a bit to think about
Also thank you for the reply.
I think also that CZ's primary (and kind of only) concern is CZ. And EDHRec's primary concern is data and it's secondary concern is EDHRec.
I also disagree that the larger part of the community is good at self-regulation. In fact, the concept itself might be foreign to a group of new players, who potentially approach a commander game without knowledge of the format philosophy, thinking it like any competitive card game. The Moment these Players employ any online ressource, they get recommended the strongest staples to put into a deck. Watching mtg podcast content online makes you and me into part of the most involved group of mtg players. We're aware of format philosophy and the idea of selfrestraint for the better of the game.
Ironically, very 'casual' players might come to play pretty ugly and extremely powerful cards in uneven pods.
For this reason I also advocate for more bans instead of less, which the old RC even agreed with, considering all bans they did were 'signpost bannings', meaning they _meant_ to hit more cards like the ones already banned, but nobody takes vague notions of potential bans seriously. Just ban cards outright.
It bothers me that anyone would say, “this powerful card isn’t that bad if it’s printed in limited amounts as a chase rare” or whatever, because it completely ignores how many people are proxying (which is great), and how many people play using Moxfield/Archidekt. A card being physically rare has a limited impact on its prevalence in actual games.
Every single person I play with and almost everyone I’ve played with in the last few years are playing with proxies. Arguments for the rarity of a card making it “not a problem also always fall into the meritocracy fallacy. You shouldn’t have to play against someone’s wallet.
Banned as commander wouldn’t be confusing for players. The list would be short, and it’s fairly easy to explain to newer players why the commander they’d want to play is banned. When making a deck on decklist websites, they can easily tell you “Sorry, this card is banned as Commander”
I think the argument against banned as commander went out the window with legal UN cards. The moment they made certain cards from a joke set legal makes it where a separate list for commanders is child's play
I want Sway of the Stars to be unbanned so I can put it in my El Minster deck, I would never cast it, but, I will 100% exile it to make 10 Faerie Dragon tokens lol
I only want Golos unbanned to helm my 5 color 'cast from exile' deck.
And I've always loved Emrakul, free her!
I actually think this is a weird spot where if you brought back banned as commander it could free things up. Weirdly grisselbrand and iona are fine in the command zone but brutal in the the 99 where they can be reanimated and sneak attacked and such.
dont forget commanders can be reanimated, you can choose to allow a commander to go to the grave
@@TheIceman101418 but then you have to get it into your graveyard. From the command zone. Which is challenging for 8 and 9 mana commanders.
i support a Banned as Commander list, i was disappointed in the previous end to that list.
that said, Iona goes against a big part of the inherent nature of the format, and Griselbrand is outrageously aided by the starting life total (much like Fastbond and Channel). in the 99 they would be somewhat less aggressive, but still problematic and "offensive" to the basic principles of Commander. these two are likely best left completely banned.
On the flip side, I expect to remove praetor stax from Primevil Titan. Some folks might prefer that more proactive approach. I know i would.
To be fair, re/Prime Time, it's 1 card out of 99.
Consider it a "win con" of sorts, no different than any other.
Unless amswered right away, they win.
Exactly, what is the purpose of the banlist? It's to not overburden the pregame conversations!
If a card is obnoxious without being broken, nobody wants to run into that. Then it's useless to keep long personal lists of "cards I don't want to play against" in addition to the banlist, and expect players to fix their decklists pregame on the fly.
I’m a new player and on first commander game I was rhystic studied, thassas oracled, cyclonic rifted 😭. I’ve been docksided, smothering tithed, and even mana crypted. All while I’m running my little $50 deck. In my experience, people will absolutely not hold back no matter what even if you are like hey I’m new and this is all I’ve got. They’ll wipe the floor with you and smile unblinkingly while they do it the whole time… so I’m quite in favor for as many of these problematic cards to stay banned as possible
None of the four most recent bans should ever be undone. Reversing on those equates to handing a win to the harassers who put the format in Wizards’ hands in the first place. Giving the message that threats and harassment get you what you want would be a very bad thing for the game.
The bracket system will be interesting, if Jewelled Lotus gets unbanned it will go into bracket four. That will significantly reduce demand. I’m sure WOTC can find/make chance cards that can be more universally played.
The delivery on “wet fart” made my face make a wet fart.
None of the recent bans can be unbanned, or else the people who sent the death threats won, and those people will know that it works. Even if you could rationalize unbanning any of them for game balance reasons, it would just give legitimacy to the threats made against the RC members. Those people need to know they are not welcome here, and should be shut out of any and all social circles until they can act responsibly.
Edit: Green has been the most powerful color in casual EDH forever and I sincerely believe it is because it can just produce unfettered amounts of mana without recourse, as land destruction has become super taboo. People will use mechanics like land destruction just to be annoying, rather than using it to keep Green players at bay, or taking out a super powerful utility land that has shot someone ahead. There need to be answers to lands like Gaea's Cradle and Itlimoc and Cradle of the Sun (Strictly better Gaea's Cradle once you transform it). But we can't have nice things because people who play this game will just go "nobody allows me to play Tergrid :(" and then go on to waste everyone's time for an hour and a half.
Agreed.
No, the recent bans should be unbanned because they shouldn't be held hostage by people saying a very tiny minority did death threats, so the half of the community who wants them unbanned, conveniently, doesn't get what they want. Leaving the other half of the community saying they shouldn't be unbanned, getting exactly what they want.I don't think it's a coincidence.
@@cablefeed3738all the bans were warranted they all deserved ban , all of them felt like slaping à hundred dollar on the table and saying : ill begin the game at turn 3 or 4 because I paid , only reason ppl are mad because they lost money buying OBVIOUS OP TOP 3 CARD OF A FORMAT they dont fkn understand how a mox and a black lotus is p9 level
@@cablefeed3738 The people sending death threats were the ones that want them unbanned... Because they're the ones who "lost money". Please engage honestly with things or do not engage with them at all. I have zero tolerance for people who engage in bad faith
@thechikage1091 yes, people who wanted it unbanned sent death threats. But it was a very small group, and the very large group of people who wanted unbanned, that didn't send death threats still want it unbanned.
In the defense of unbanning biorhythem, shaman of forgotten ways has been in the format for a decade now. It hasnt broken anything, and can be done out of nowhere even in mono green.
Also, 2nd part about not liking 1 spell burning away 100s of life points, repay in kind does that for 7 mana
When are they going to ban Island? Too OP
I tap 2 blue and counter the ban.
Depends on the island. If the island is in a lake or river it's fine. But if it's an ocean island that's when it's salty.
@@imaginarymatter Island is a perfectly fair card in my decks. It's everyone else who is the problem.
I could see WotC comming out with a Commander set next year or so with reprints of some banned cards that they'll unban and load this into the bracket system at the higher tiers.
It is possible that the ban list has been tailored enough and is ‘perfect’ in that no one piece should be unbanned. To 'find a card to unban' is trying to solve a problem that no one is asking for. Rather players want communication and more transparency. WotC taking control of the format will only lessen the transparency unless WotC treats Commander differently (I have no reason they would).
WotC could have make an announcement 24 hours after RC’s banning announcement was live. Saying you can dust these now banned cards for a choice of X points. You mail in the cards and then are awarded points to ‘buy’ replacement cards. That WotC didn’t have this as plan F to enact right away is a missed opportunity. [And by now, too much wealth has been lost and the ship has been sailed. This quick action would have been the way to soften banning ¿millions? overnight.]
Perfect curve to win with biorhythm. nothing turns 1-5. turn 6, 6 mana simic commander. Turn 7 end step cyclonic Rift. Untap and biorhythm.
I changed my Baba Lysaga deck (yes it was somewhat inspired by Joeys) into Winter, Misanthropic Guide. And it is really fun even tho I paint a big target on my back from the get go. In it I also have Enduring Vitality and Doomsday Excruciator. My playgroup knows about it and I just want to see what will happen for a while. So yesterday I was about to loose but had EV, three other creatures and two Swamps among my lands so I tapped all creatures including EV for black and my two swamps and oh the salt was so tasty.
No but it went from a sure winner to what will happen next. Unfortunately I didn't have any more mill cards available so I was killed by the way of five 5/5 doublestrike flying angels to the face. But it was really fun to experience something so gamewarping that was basically a 5% chance of having all at the same time. And it was really just down to the next 2-3 turns anyway. The only tutors I have are for lands and if need be I can pay cleave for Dig Up. But even that one is almost never worth it. The randomness and chaos is what makes commander what it is and as long as everyone has a great time it is the closest to a perfect cardgame in my opinion.
So, a funny thing about Prime Titan, and I shouldn't admit to this, but I just bought over like 20+ of them a week or two before that price jump. So no I think I have over 30 with the ones I already had.
I joked about how once this format I'm working one takes off, It'll jump in price and I can turn around and sell them for a profit, and so I wanted 100 of them. But in reality, It's a card I love playing with and I wanted to make sure I owned enough before the price jumped up due to my own format (ha, not likely, this will take years to take off) or due to the recent upswing due to CEDH becoming it's own thing or WOTC potentially unbanning it.
Looks like I was right for once.
I like Joey's point about Dockside when it comes to primetime. Positive effects can be as bad for fun but are harder to negotiate out of the experience, and that's why having a banlist pay attention to those cards is a Good Thing.
People really need to stop saying panoptic mirror should be unbanned. The card is straight up a problem. You can put multiple things under it. Here's my panoptic mirror with a rampant growth under it. Are you going to kill my rampant growth engine? Oh i found what I'm looking for plus a way to protect my panoptic mirror. End step of player going before me imprint my time warp, counter the removal spell untap and win. Card is not ok. Im so happy that at least some of the hosts were able to recognize this card as a must stay banned. Same with Prime time. I would play the living shit out of prime time. That card needs to stay banned. Sway of the stars needs to stay banned. Its basically Shahrazad.
New green overlord is the fair prime time
Thought on them printing legends that say "cannot be played as your commander".? Almost the antithesis to planeswalker commanders
By this adage, reprinting Briads with that line affects her nowhere else but the format
"Who wants to unban Primeval Titan?"
👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋
"Who wants to play *against* Primeval Titan?"
*silence*
Yep.
I wanna play against primeval titan
The amount of disagreement between these awesome guys has me excited to shift from a ban list that fits no one to a bracket system that lets play groups do what they enjoy
Ondu spiritdancer to me seems like it sees play because of how good it is if you play it after unlocking the secret arcade room
Infinite 3/3s because the spiritdancers are then enchantments, meaning they are able to copy themselves on ETB
Sylvan primordial concerns me less now. We have faster and more varied types of ramp. Our spells are more efficient and impactful than back in the day. There are better blink/reanimate/clone targets. Less powerful, and goes in less decks but still annoying.
Prime time has the opposite problem. It has only gotten stronger as they make new lands. You could put this in any green deck and be happy with it.
Yup. The reason Prime Time should stay banned is the exact same reason Golos needs to stay banned.
@@James-mm8pr Name another card that puts each opponent down a land and you up 3 lands that is castable on turn 3. Now, can I trigger that other card multiple times?
Primordial is busted af.
@@herpderp66 What's the line that allows you to cast it on turn 3? Typically most 7 drops on turn 3 can take over games pretty easily?.
@@James-mm8pr
Turn 1 sol ring
Turn 2 Cultivate/Kodama's Reach
Turn 3 Sylvian Primordial
That is the easiest most simple line every deck can do. There are many line that let you cast Primordial on turn 3.
Turn 1 Llanowar Elf (any 1 mana dork)
Turn 2 anything
Turn 3 Primal Order
Turn 1 entomb
Turn 2 reanimate
The list goes on and on.
@@herpderp66 I'm not concerned with these lines. They take 3 cards to put together in the first three turns. If people get that hand/can pull it off they got my kodus. Shuffle up new game.
Entomb + Reanimate is easier as it takes two cards. It's solid but I'm not concerned about it because most entomb + reanimate on turn 2 can take over games. They pull this off. I'm good with gg. Shuffle up a new game in need be.
I'm not sure I follow the line with Llanowar elf as that only gives you 4 mana on turn 3. Even with a rampant growth that's five mana.
The card is solid, but the card's like sol ring and entomb are what scare me.
Primetime should stay banned. Every game becomes how to abuse it. Ever deck will want to either play it themselves, or play a bunch of clones. We have seen it before, and it is highly unlikely to be any different now.
Every game NOW is about abusing their own strategy, I don't think primetime does anything revolutionary in that regard.
I really hate to defend Prime Time because I don't wanna see it unbanned either BUT it's worth noting that back when it was a problem the legend rule also applied to the full battlefield, so people just generically ran clones as cmdr kill spells. The legened rule changed roughly the same time as Prime Time was banned, so we really haven't lived in an EDH world where it was legal and people weren't also running multiple clones as super value ways to remove someone's cmdr. Without so many incidental clones in decks it might be slightly less crappy. Maybe.
So that was some of the most fun I ever had playing commander
Also more powerful lands have been printed now. We have many 2 card land comboes that win the game that didn't exist before ban. We also have more "I win the game" lands than before ban.
No way should PT be unbanned ever.
If chaos Orb is banned for manual dexterity reasons, why aren't coin flip cards banned for the same reason?