@@LeonMassey Explain more about this "02 rollback announcement", please. I screwed around with KoF 13 a little while ago and found it fun, but haven't been able to play against anyone because of the netcode, playerbase, and my tendency to graze from game to game rather than really sink my teeth into them. I think I have a few of the earlier KoF games, but they run on some sort of horrible NeoGeo or arcade machine emulator program that makes me press buttons to put more coins in, has awkward controls, and won't let me rebind the buttons I use. Of the fighting games I have, I'm mostly screwing around in Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid, or playing some Soul Calibur 6.
@@Thalanox So KOF02 on steam is getting rollback, so the netcode is getting way better. The emulation is actually really good it's just the networking before was DOGGY DOO DOO but that's getting fixed now. The player base will most likely still be players who are REALLY good, but because of rollback there's going to be an influx of players who are also not stellar (THAT'S ME) so if you go on the discord for games it should be ok even if you're not too deep into it already.
Besides the gameplay details , there is one thing that make some clone characters unique: Personality Ryu and Ken have been sharing moves for 2 decades but their personalities is what makes them different
Arcade mk ninjas. Scorpion and sub are best. Ermac is a beast. Reptile is cool. Fuck rain. Who is tremor. There was an orange one? Human Smoke is better than scorpion. NOOB SAIBOT!!! They are just pallet swaps too.
Story wise ken and ryu being clones makes sense as well since both of them were trained by the same teachers so of course they would have a similar moveset.
This wasn't something I had ever thought about seriously until recently. It was always just easy to brush off and laugh at clone characters just being a developer's cheat day, but it was in Guilty Gear, where I finally realized how much I appreciate having a personality swap for a moveset. Sometimes in a fighting game, there is a character that literally reaches out to you. The playstyle, the mechanics, the menalities those former two emphasize and reward, it's like the character was made to be an exension of you within the game. Sometimes, that character is Jam Kuradoberi and you cry. There have been alot of trials and tribulations in me getting into Guilty Gear, but this step was the one that was the most painful for me. I probably could have had a much easier time getting into the game had I just played Jam from the word go, but I can't lie to myself. I don't like her ear-piercing voice, I don't like her dumb ass, I just don't like Jam as a character and therefore, didn't really feel like playing her. I eventually found sanctuary in Chipp and while you could aruge that it's taught me to pay more attention to my mix-up game, but I can't help but wish that Jam's playstyle was on another character. It made me realize the appreciation I have for Ken Masters in particular. I may have not played a whole bunch of Street Fighter, but whenever I did, I'd usually gravitate towards Ken. Not just because he has the safe accessibility of a shoto clone with a more aggressive edge, but because he's everything Ryu is but cooler in my eyes. He has the same "honorable fighter" about him with the distinction of not being a complete stick of butter. His cockiness, the flare, he's the reason why if ever a fighting game has someone with the standard shoto moveset, he's the guy I tend to learn the game with. I just never took the time to imagine a world, where I only had the choice of playing Ryu. Much like with Jam in Guilty, it might have caused me to lose out on a potential playstyle to enjoy because I just can't gel with the character.
It still uses resources, Order-Sol's Charge meter. Getting to Level 3 Charge while trying to not get hit by your opponent would be hard unless you're standing full screen far away. Furthermore, it will drain all that resource if you just charged barely at Level 3 although Action Charging does alleviate this somewhat by giving some Charge to get to Level 2 quick unless you have more charge than just hitting Level 3. Comboing off it will net you near to 200 damage for damage scaling with the Order-Sol's hardest hitting meterless combo.
it might sound dumb, but i really love "clone" characters using moveset from older versions that were scraped in newer versions of the base char stuff like gouken air tatsu going in a straight line (like ryu in sf2 champion edition), "kusanagi" having kyo 1995 moveset (+ some left over from kyo rejected design) or red arcueid with melty blood vanilla arcueid teleports. older GG used to have a EX version based on gg1 moveset, those are pretty nice too
That was one of my favorite things about Tekken Tag 2. It was loaded with unlockable clones, yet many of those clones were throwbacks to Tekken Tag 1 for various characters that had changed drastically since that game.
The reason why Ryu's hurricane kick knocks down but Ken's doesnt is primarily cause Ken is more of a rushdown, so youd want to use it to get in close to follow up with another move. Ryu's kncokdown means he has time to dash back or setup the next attack for waking opponent (which if Ryu or Ken, has a invisible waking shoyuken so can be risky) Its funny how the smallest of changes can effect the complete playstyle of the character
@@ZenoDovahkiin One minor difference has knockon effects, people playing ryu had more incentive to play zoning and footsies, while ken's tatsu encouraged you to rushdown. That one tiny difference gets exaggerated into their entire playstyle.
super ironic that Smash Ultimate calling Clones "Echoes" makes much more sense for current Fighting Games, as they echo the base character's design but aren't the same, yet all of its "Echo" characters are near or exact clones, woops.
Legit such a wasted opportunity in Ultimate with both Richter and Daisy, Melee was actually really cool in applying differences in stats to clone characters, while Ultimate barely did an effort to change not even a single piece of frame data on Richter or Peach The one time they made the concept of clone characters appealing to the common eye, and they barely took advantage of it
Fun fact, Shadow Jago was the same as Jago when he first appeared, but in season 3 they made him a full character for sale, and as jago’s a season 1 character they decided to make him completely different
Imma be honest, I didn't expect so much polish and production value from a small recommended channel but I'm blown away. I'm glad I took the chance and now i'm subbed.
"I used to love this game, where did that love go?" That's what you get for being a Samus main ;) Seriously though, I love all your videos, please keep making them.
I love the fact that King/ AK and Anna/Nina are more like mirror characters than clone characters. They are closely related, but in many aspects, they are the opposite
As a Smash player, I can safely say the true clone is not dead. They *patched out* a difference between Peach and Daisy just so they’re carbon copies, but one is orange hair.
I started appreciating clones more when I started playing Smash Ultimate, where the developers take more liberties with what does and doesn't define a clone. The Belmonts are pretty much the same except in the *type* of damage dealt by a single one of their attacks, while Marth and Roy play wildly different because of a single mechanical change, and both of them have their own clones with their own differences
This was something I've been thinking about though spread over several games, like looking at grapplers and seeing how they vary from game to game and what changes they make to accommodate the system changes even though they're characters with the same philosophy behind their creation.
@@LeonMassey This would be really cool, kinda like a "genealogy tree" for archetipes, using grapplers as an example, we started with gief and now we have mixed grapplers like Laura and fucking monstrocities like Abigail.
I really liked how you went about talking about clones. Only a personal issue but finding the one frame editing texts so often in these videos is frustrating.
@CrissP,bacon n Cheese Lol your so bad at arguing. All he did was ask questions to hear your reasons of why u didn’t like Core A and u fucking hounded on him like he was the next Bacon and Cheese u were gonna get.
When you asked to put my finger on the scale, I placed it off the scale to the right as a joke, so I win. Edit: thanks for the heart. Also, _the concept of a move that plus terrifies me._ Edit 2: I'm referring to the 37 for the terrifying, tho the 11 also spooks me.
One issue I've been having with fighting games is I love playing them but it's seems like no one I talk to online or irl really plays them. It's hard to find groups so it kinda sucks to play sometimes when there's no one to talk to. But Im also not to crazy about shooter
I had this issue biiiiiig time, unfortunately the best thing I can recommend is going to tournaments but... You know... Pandemic and all that. Next best thing might be trying to find a discord for the game you like (however some are extremely degenerate be careful out there)
@@LeonMassey Thanks for responding but i have also had an issue with that. For example i joined like the biggest Tekken 7 server in hopes to get better and to find people. Although it had tons of people on it. It didn't really seem like anyone would play it with me. Which kind of sucked as someone who's trying to get into it lol. Do you possibly know any good ones? or and guilty gear, fighterz, or most fighting games tbh you wouldn't mind telling me?
Also forgot to add this i found you very recently and you make content better than some of the bigger creators I have watched your videos are informative and well edited keep up the great work
@@lambo8686 hmm that sounds rough, tbh I've always played alone online but then found the community I liked offline. From what I know the guilty gear crowd discord is quite good, but they are VERY picky about connections. Unfortunately I can't be much help :(
For Iori's moveset he uses a different fighting style but still has similarities like Kyo's. Kyo's crouch punch and crouch kicks are more faster and offensive and has a quick recovery frame. With Iori his crouch punch and crouch kicks are similar interms of offense to me but his crouch kicks has a longer recover frame than Kyo's
In old games (like Super Turbo) it was more than just time saving, it was also about the memory. Most sprites you see in old arcade games aren't even one sprite, they're a composite of multiple smaller sprites, and every single line of data is taking up precious space on your megabytes large memory. So if you can make a new character or move by taking already existing sprites in the game (like the shoto body) and changing one sprite (the one that makes up the head) you're basically hitting two pixies with one fireball.
This reminds me of the "echo fighter" situation. For the first several smash games, characters that had similar movesets to others were often written off as clone characters and wasted slots. However, when they were given an official title in ultimate, suddenly everyone wanted more of them. It's amazing how a simple rebranding can change public perception so much.
Good video. Particularly with in the context of Guilty Gear I think a big part of the reason the clone characters (Order Sol and Robo Ky) are so distinct from their original is because the game already contains an outlet for variant expressions of all the characters; although most EX versions aren't particularly well balanced it still provides means of cheaply doubling the cast for casuals, a space to dump unused assets (some of which were added to the base characters in later versions) and several interesting 'what if' concepts (what if Venom wasn't a charge character). I wish more games would include this feature, even if it's never balanced.
everytime you put skullgirls into a video, i see it as an easter egg since it's so short and rare, it's like one of the only things i actively look for in your video
4:10 😔 how you gonna absolutely tear into grapplers like that? I just think grabs and throws look cool..... let me be a wrestler..... 😿incineroar gang😿
@@LeonMassey god im so offended... but your content is so high quality and you have such cool sunglasses... 😔 i guess i have no choice but to stay subscribed and support you
@@LeonMassey I am also a grappler main, life is suffering but i get to be the biggest character on the screen and by extension the strongest so no one can take that from me.
Another thing about clones is that they allow a player to try a different playstyle without having to learn a completely new moveset. Take Ryu and Ken, one's based more on zoning, the other on explosive offense. Yet because they basically share the same moves, it's easier for someone to move from one to the other, than say switching from Ryu to try Chun Li.
Your Humor is awesome + i liked your topic choosing it's so goo0oo0d and your vids are amazing i watched everyone of them more than twice ! Also I respect it when you are talking about a game i don't understand/doesn't have interest in " Like Tekken" yet you still explain it which gets your point faster than assuming the viewers knows everything. Keep it up man ! c;
Kilgore and Shin Hisako are actually super different from their original counterparts, Kilgore uses machine guns that Fulgore can't and Shin Hisako is much faster and simpler than regular Hisako
"Eslaf2" "Eslaf++" depending on if you want to go by the official name or not, currently in development and is only accessible through the devs patreon :)
Why do you gotta do my boy King dirty like that???? Joking aside this video is great, I can only assume it's a matter of time untill your channel is gigantic, because this content is incredible, keep it up man!
Another factor to be taken into account that's obvious but underappreciated is that a clone character can be identical and still feel differently just because it looks differently. Personal and vague example but in my head Kuma is a wild beast who attacks with no mercy while Panda is considerate creature who puts more forethought into her attacks, I'm well aware that they are equal but just their looks made me come up with a different head cannon that makes me play them differently. Just clothing or color change can do the same thing but having it as a separate character reinforces these difference in optics which can influence how a character is viewed without changing how the character works.
Quality vid, fella. Y'hit me with a good smile with that Marduk line. You're spot on; I've described this exact comparison to several people looking at all 3 of those characters when deciding who to play.
I love clones for two reasons: 1) more content in less time while also giving devs some hard earned chill, 2) clones are basically "Hey so you liked the moveset but not the playstyle of the character? Here's a character with the same moveset but a different playstyle, now it might be perfect for you!"
Your videos are amazing and the production value is PHENOMENAL. Its shocking that you haven't even hit 2k but I'm sure you'll hit over 200k in no time if you keep making high-quality videos like this. Big props to you.
Leon out here roasting Melee and Killer Instinct but me and other SNK fans are just crying in the corner because Kyo, Iori and Kusanagi weren't even considered.
You know, I want to avoid playing dragon ball fighterz because 6 characters, are goku but with different hair color. now I watched this video, and I am still not buying that game because I never watched dragon ball in my life. *Edit: since everyone says I do not really need to watch the show to get the game. I will look into purchasing eventually but I need to learn skull girls first.
@@tarunjohal9215 the dragon ball series 800 episodes and that is way to much for me to handle. I am not trying to dis the dragon ball fighterz or the dragon ball series but I just cannot watch that much dragon ball and a new game will come out by the time I finish watching half of it. Since this whole game is based off dragon ball fighting I will not know why this guy can create expulsions everywhere or shoot stars at people (I do not know if a character did that in dragon ball.)
@@turtlehub2731 *sigh* I was only trying to make a point on how you shouldn't judge something if you have no idea what is going on, but if course it's your choice bro, I'm not trying to argue with you
@@tarunjohal9215 Sorry if you interpretive that message negatively. I was just explaining why I do not want to watch a long series just to enjoy a fighting game. My apologies.
I found this video last night and now you've become one of my favorite fgc content creators. I love your style of videomaking and I'm really looking forward to what else you have in store. Keep up the good work my man.
im super late to this video, but Kuma and Panda DO have a gameplay difference, its just so minor that most people dont know or dont care enough about it to count.
In regards to Tekken 7: King and Armor King = GREAT implementation of "clone" characters Kuma and Panda = Should be a SIN in this day and age. Unforgivable.
I keep coming back to this video just for the Order Sol part. Just the questioning, confused "+37 ?????" just tickles my funny bone I can't help but giggle every time
A good explanation for this is a quote from initial d that sums this up pretty well. "while the Trueno and Levin are like twin siblings both engines have different tuning methods which make them run like different cars. The car method that gets used in a car without a turbo charger is called mechanical tuning which is common in which Takumi's Trueno is. His foot on the accelerator controls the rpms directly and it's instant response is its strength. Even after entering a corner near its top speed, it can make adjustments to its attack giving it good advantage. In other words he can attack the corners more aggressively than his turbo could ever do. When it comes to entering corners, their types of cars are best suited for the road. However he points out that the Levin is a turbo it might be a hair slower on corning than the Trueno but how it accelerates on a straight lines covers that difference between the two. Turbos are better in exiting corners."
DBFZ has a hundred Gokus but they all play differently and that is amazing. A Base Goku main can look at UI mains and just call them apes. SSJ Goku mains wouldn't say much since those stopped existing since his 2M nerf. Gogeta and Vegito are Gokus and play entirely different from each othef despite both sharing similar J.2H moves and being both fusions. And then there's Bluku who tries to dabs on every other Goku because they got a 17 frame command grab and then UI is just the most gorilla variant of Goku there is despite being farther from it than GT Goku and then there's-
Idk if im just stupid but ive had this video on my recommended for like 2 weeks and i always read it as 'The Beauty in Chaos' and only when i clicked on it did i see it said clones lmao
To me, 'clones' in fighting games is comparable to taking the ingredients from one dish but slightly tweaking the recipe a bit to make a dish while similar, stands out with its own taste and its way of being made. For example, Ryu is like a regular chicken sandwich with mayonnaise and asiago cheese, while Ken is a spicy chicken sandwich with honey mustard and sharp cheddar cheese. Similar components, but widely differing flavors. That's the beauty of 'clone' characters.
I just logged in to tell you how awesome your content is. I just found you, saw a few videos, and was like: damn, this might be my favourite content creator. no, really!
Just wanted to say congrats on the newfound growth of your channel! I love your content and I subscribed maybe a week ago and I swear you must've been like under 1k subs then. Now you're already at 5k. Looking forward to seeing more content from you!
There's also Lambda-11 in Blazblue. Started as a clone but now she is the closest thing to the original character (NU-13) while Nu changed into a full zoner.
By Blazblue standards, where everyone has a gimmick completely unique to them INCLUDING alternate versions of the same character (Izayoi vs. Tsubaki, Noel vs. Mu, Terumi vs. Hazama if you want to count that), Lambda's still pretty bad. I'm pretty sure they even have the EXACT same normals, only differing in the Special and Distortion department where all but 1 or 2 of Lambda's moves are just Nu's with some altered properties. They didn't even bother to give her a unique Astral or at least make an alternate version of Nu's.
@@espurrseyes42 No, the likes of izayoi, mu and terumi aren't clones. I don't know which Blazblue you played but lambda is now very different from Nu as of central fiction. Her normals are mostly the same as Nu, yes, but lambda can drive cancel 6c and has retained a standing overhead in 6b. Her drives and specials are all different or have different properties (instant second sword on d, lockdown storm sickle, spike chaser vs luminous, gravity field float...)
@@renatoramos8834 When did I say Izayoi and co. were clones? I believe I said "alternate versions of the same character", which is true (Mu is Noel's Murakumo form, Izayoi is Tsubaki using the released form of her weapon, Hazama is Terumi's vessel, made to look similar to a previous vessel of Terumi's, all 3 looking very similar). The same Blazblue where Lambda was created to be a nerfed clone of Nu to keep her gameplay around before killing off the character and reviving Nu the next game which a stance change gimmick that let her alternative between her original properties and Lambda's properties, literally making her an Alternate Nu before THAT got axed in Extend and Nu's second form just got turned into Lambda with like 1 new move before CF decided to give them a few more differences. For all intents and purposes, she is still an Alternate Nu. Their drives may have different properties and frame data, but the animations are still the same (aside from new swords for Lambda). They may have some different specials, but most of them are only "different" in the sense that they're they same as something Nu does/did with altered properties (Crescent, Sickle Storm, Gravity Seed) or is a, for the most part, a "unique" move that still uses a Nu move as a base (Parser Zwei and related moves, including Exiga Nail), her only truely unique move being her Exceed Accel. And as already stated, the majority of her normals are the same as Nu's. All that's different is that her 5B is Nu's 6B (though the same animation is used for Counter Assault) and her 6B is that weird flip overhead. Yeah, there are differences here and there, making her not as bad as Daisy or Richter are in Smash, but by BB's higher standards where every character has a unique gimmick (Drive) that their playstyle is focused around, Lambda is more or less a Nu clone when compared to the likes of Terumi vs. Hazama, Izayoi vs. Tsubaki, or Noel vs. Mu. Actually, I should be saying Nu vs. Mu since both are Murakumo fighters and the latter does borrow some animations from her predecessor. But unlike Lambda, Mu has her own unique gimmick (Steins), and she doesn't borrow nearly as much stuff from Nu as Lambda does. THAT (and Terumi) is how you take an existing character's base and make a new, unique character out of it. And then you have Alternate Nu being comparatively as bad as the average Smash clone.
@@espurrseyes42 This is a video about clone characters, so it's irrelevant to talk about izayoi, terumi and mu. And it seems like you really hate lambda. The fact stands that nu and lambda now play very differently AND lambda has several unique moves that nu never had.
@@renatoramos8834 It's very much relevant to talk about them, Terumi especially, to show how lazy ASW got when bringing Lambda back as her own character. And yes, I do hate Lambda. Just like I hate every other clone character even when I would've otherwise like the character themselves. The fact that's that Lambda is just Nu with altered properties on some duplicate moves and very few unique moves that aren't based on something Nu does/did whereas the likes of Terumi and the rest have different gimmicks from the characters they're based on and have a lot more unique moves than Lambda does. Like I said, *by Blazblue's higher standard, where characters have a gimmick (Drive) that their playstyle is based around, Lambda is for all intents and purposes an Alternate Nu rather than a unique character like the the Drive system is supposed to encourage.* You can say they have differences all you want, but that doesn't change how she pales in comparison to how different the aforementioned "Alt Form" characters are from their parents, including Mu, who borrows some animations and moves from Nu while still having PLENTY of her own stuff, including a completely different Drive. It sounds to me like you're just a Lambda/Mori SIMP and can't listen to reason.
hey, this showed up in my recommends and I'm kinda glad I checked in. Honestly now wish I found these sooner! Had me laughing p hard and pausing for all the jokes. good shit duder
When you said that there's still a lot of development work to change sprites like Sol and Order Sol's c.S, you're forgetting that 2D game sprites are made by multiple people. First, there's the animator, who sketches the motions, then there's the cleanup artist who turns it into pixel art or does coloring and palette in the case of Skullgirls. That means that there's no need to employ an animator for any identical sprites. That saves a lot of time and money.
Literally just found this channel before I was sleep only to watch all of your content, but honestly it baffles me that this high fgc is quality content has given you low subscribers.You my friend have earn a sub keep up the good work and have a nice da.
![Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YsnLYxXESds/mqdefault.jpg)
![Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])](/img/tr.png)
Meanwhile I'm over here in kof with 4 Kyos, with the clones also being actual clones in canon.
I legit never played a kof until like yesterday since the 02 rollback announcement, got to character select and just immediately went "fuuuuuck"
@@LeonMassey good luck with knowing who each character is 😂
@@LeonMassey Shen is the most fun, that's all you need to know. Quality videos by the way 👍
@@LeonMassey Explain more about this "02 rollback announcement", please.
I screwed around with KoF 13 a little while ago and found it fun, but haven't been able to play against anyone because of the netcode, playerbase, and my tendency to graze from game to game rather than really sink my teeth into them.
I think I have a few of the earlier KoF games, but they run on some sort of horrible NeoGeo or arcade machine emulator program that makes me press buttons to put more coins in, has awkward controls, and won't let me rebind the buttons I use.
Of the fighting games I have, I'm mostly screwing around in Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid, or playing some Soul Calibur 6.
@@Thalanox So KOF02 on steam is getting rollback, so the netcode is getting way better. The emulation is actually really good it's just the networking before was DOGGY DOO DOO but that's getting fixed now. The player base will most likely still be players who are REALLY good, but because of rollback there's going to be an influx of players who are also not stellar (THAT'S ME) so if you go on the discord for games it should be ok even if you're not too deep into it already.
I propose we should now call clone characters "cousins".
I like "step-bros" better
*What’re you doing step-bro*
+Mr Lakiro
Dammit reddit
what about gokus except UI and GT
Mr Lakiro dark pit: kills pit. Pit: what are u doing step bro
jokes on you mokujin is a super clone and unique as well because it causes your opponents to change strategies
OH shit you're right NotLikeThis
Mokujin styling on clones so hard that he has combos that are unique to him.
Besides the gameplay details , there is one thing that make some clone characters unique: Personality
Ryu and Ken have been sharing moves for 2 decades but their personalities is what makes them different
3 moves*
Arcade mk ninjas. Scorpion and sub are best. Ermac is a beast. Reptile is cool. Fuck rain. Who is tremor. There was an orange one? Human Smoke is better than scorpion. NOOB SAIBOT!!!
They are just pallet swaps too.
@@furyberserk Cant forget about motherfuCKIN' CHAMELEON!
Story wise ken and ryu being clones makes sense as well since both of them were trained by the same teachers so of course they would have a similar moveset.
This wasn't something I had ever thought about seriously until recently. It was always just easy to brush off and laugh at clone characters just being a developer's cheat day, but it was in Guilty Gear, where I finally realized how much I appreciate having a personality swap for a moveset. Sometimes in a fighting game, there is a character that literally reaches out to you. The playstyle, the mechanics, the menalities those former two emphasize and reward, it's like the character was made to be an exension of you within the game. Sometimes, that character is Jam Kuradoberi and you cry. There have been alot of trials and tribulations in me getting into Guilty Gear, but this step was the one that was the most painful for me. I probably could have had a much easier time getting into the game had I just played Jam from the word go, but I can't lie to myself. I don't like her ear-piercing voice, I don't like her dumb ass, I just don't like Jam as a character and therefore, didn't really feel like playing her. I eventually found sanctuary in Chipp and while you could aruge that it's taught me to pay more attention to my mix-up game, but I can't help but wish that Jam's playstyle was on another character.
It made me realize the appreciation I have for Ken Masters in particular. I may have not played a whole bunch of Street Fighter, but whenever I did, I'd usually gravitate towards Ken. Not just because he has the safe accessibility of a shoto clone with a more aggressive edge, but because he's everything Ryu is but cooler in my eyes. He has the same "honorable fighter" about him with the distinction of not being a complete stick of butter. His cockiness, the flare, he's the reason why if ever a fighting game has someone with the standard shoto moveset, he's the guy I tend to learn the game with.
I just never took the time to imagine a world, where I only had the choice of playing Ryu. Much like with Jam in Guilty, it might have caused me to lose out on a potential playstyle to enjoy because I just can't gel with the character.
Imagine the dev's trying to explain and balance a meterless move that's +37 in this day and age
It still uses resources, Order-Sol's Charge meter. Getting to Level 3 Charge while trying to not get hit by your opponent would be hard unless you're standing full screen far away. Furthermore, it will drain all that resource if you just charged barely at Level 3 although Action Charging does alleviate this somewhat by giving some Charge to get to Level 2 quick unless you have more charge than just hitting Level 3. Comboing off it will net you near to 200 damage for damage scaling with the Order-Sol's hardest hitting meterless combo.
lol
Making it as long as warlock punch to wind up
Me and the 9 other carmine mains showing up with our 236A that's +72
May i introduce you to DBFZ
it might sound dumb, but i really love "clone" characters using moveset from older versions that were scraped in newer versions of the base char
stuff like gouken air tatsu going in a straight line (like ryu in sf2 champion edition), "kusanagi" having kyo 1995 moveset (+ some left over from kyo rejected design) or red arcueid with melty blood vanilla arcueid teleports.
older GG used to have a EX version based on gg1 moveset, those are pretty nice too
Kyo had 3 clones in one game lmao
Or young link in SSBU: he has nearly the same moveset of SSB4's version of base Link.
That was one of my favorite things about Tekken Tag 2. It was loaded with unlockable clones, yet many of those clones were throwbacks to Tekken Tag 1 for various characters that had changed drastically since that game.
Yeah, like Devil Jin using Jin’s original Tekken 3 moveset when Jin switched to using mostly his mother’s fighting style.
Try Fukua from Skullgirls.
You forgot one significant difference between Sol and Order Sol: Order Sol cooler
He is very bougee I'll give you that
get down get low
GET DOWN TO BUSINESS
the cooler Sol
@@tarunjohal9215 TO DEFEAT.... THE HUNS?
The reason why Ryu's hurricane kick knocks down but Ken's doesnt is primarily cause Ken is more of a rushdown, so youd want to use it to get in close to follow up with another move. Ryu's kncokdown means he has time to dash back or setup the next attack for waking opponent (which if Ryu or Ken, has a invisible waking shoyuken so can be risky)
Its funny how the smallest of changes can effect the complete playstyle of the character
Thank you, i was hoping someone else would notice
Invisible dp? lol
@@pastorofmuppets9346 Sorry, invincible. I keep typing invisible as a bad habit.
Yeah, but this isn't just because of one move change. This only works because Ken's Rushdown got better than Ryu's.
@@ZenoDovahkiin One minor difference has knockon effects, people playing ryu had more incentive to play zoning and footsies, while ken's tatsu encouraged you to rushdown.
That one tiny difference gets exaggerated into their entire playstyle.
super ironic that Smash Ultimate calling Clones "Echoes" makes much more sense for current Fighting Games, as they echo the base character's design but aren't the same, yet all of its "Echo" characters are near or exact clones, woops.
*glances at Simon and Richter with holy water*
@@jonmanz181 Glances at Peach and Daisy with *NO DIFFERENCES AT ALL*
@@triforceriku9135 the difference is you can judge your opponent's taste in waifus depending on who they use
Legit such a wasted opportunity in Ultimate with both Richter and Daisy, Melee was actually really cool in applying differences in stats to clone characters, while Ultimate barely did an effort to change not even a single piece of frame data on Richter or Peach
The one time they made the concept of clone characters appealing to the common eye, and they barely took advantage of it
Aren't echoes more like skins?
Haven't clicked on a video faster in my life. Your content is fantastic. I enjoy seeing more good content in the FGC.
facts
@@RED-jg6mt 0⁹ and
@@RED-jg6mt l0p09⁰9
P
Exactly I don't know how he Doesn't have a million people subbed yet, lol
So frickin true
Fun fact, Shadow Jago was the same as Jago when he first appeared, but in season 3 they made him a full character for sale, and as jago’s a season 1 character they decided to make him completely different
Imma be honest, I didn't expect so much polish and production value from a small recommended channel but I'm blown away.
I'm glad I took the chance and now i'm subbed.
"I used to love this game, where did that love go?" That's what you get for being a Samus main ;)
Seriously though, I love all your videos, please keep making them.
My samus schmoved leave my samus alone >:(
Ty, I've got no intention of stopping any time soon 😅
@@LeonMassey Everyone knows that all samus mains curl up into a ball to drink the tears of their opponents after a set
I love the fact that King/ AK and Anna/Nina are more like mirror characters than clone characters. They are closely related, but in many aspects, they are the opposite
Makes sense. I like playing Anna but hate Nina.
As a Smash player, I can safely say the true clone is not dead. They *patched out* a difference between Peach and Daisy just so they’re carbon copies, but one is orange hair.
I like how you dodged Christie
Nintendo took notes from her and Panda and made Echoes
If you looked like King, women would definitely want you...Also men, too.
King of Tekken? King of Art Of Fighting? Or both?
@@Ticketman99 The King of Fighters 2002 UNLIMITED MATCH
@@Ticketman99 Definitely Tekkens,because real women are not fooled by androgynous women.
Oh yeah ;)
Meanwhile, in KOF: 5 Actual Kyo Clones in one game
I started appreciating clones more when I started playing Smash Ultimate, where the developers take more liberties with what does and doesn't define a clone. The Belmonts are pretty much the same except in the *type* of damage dealt by a single one of their attacks, while Marth and Roy play wildly different because of a single mechanical change, and both of them have their own clones with their own differences
I'm super heated i guessed blockhead buster was +12
Another interesting subject for the topic would be when similar characters are in a "spectrum" like ryu, evil ryu/kage and akuma
This was something I've been thinking about though spread over several games, like looking at grapplers and seeing how they vary from game to game and what changes they make to accommodate the system changes even though they're characters with the same philosophy behind their creation.
Wouldn't that be basically all the shotos? You've also got the space animals in Smash, as well as Mario, Luigi, and Doc.
@@LeonMassey This would be really cool, kinda like a "genealogy tree" for archetipes, using grapplers as an example, we started with gief and now we have mixed grapplers like Laura and fucking monstrocities like Abigail.
I really liked how you went about talking about clones. Only a personal issue but finding the one frame editing texts so often in these videos is frustrating.
I absolutely despise that shit. Yes let me take a full minute tapping my screen so I can read 5 words that amounted to "jk lol"
@@SeisoYabai Yeah it gets pretty annoying
youtube has it where you can press the period or comma keys to go forward/back a single frame, at least on firefox.
@@trickjump19 Can't do that on mobile yo.
"I used to love this game where did that love go? :(" damn that's tough
Is this a 'clone' of Core A Gaming? :)
This is a semiclone. He's the Wolf to Core A's Fox.
@@espurrseyes42 Ah, I see.
its a dunky clone
@CrissP,bacon n Cheese I pity the poor slop that decides or decided that your relationship material.
@CrissP,bacon n Cheese Lol your so bad at arguing. All he did was ask questions to hear your reasons of why u didn’t like Core A and u fucking hounded on him like he was the next Bacon and Cheese u were gonna get.
When you asked to put my finger on the scale, I placed it off the scale to the right as a joke, so I win.
Edit: thanks for the heart.
Also, _the concept of a move that plus terrifies me._
Edit 2: I'm referring to the 37 for the terrifying, tho the 11 also spooks me.
One issue I've been having with fighting games is I love playing them but it's seems like no one I talk to online or irl really plays them. It's hard to find groups so it kinda sucks to play sometimes when there's no one to talk to. But Im also not to crazy about shooter
I had this issue biiiiiig time, unfortunately the best thing I can recommend is going to tournaments but... You know... Pandemic and all that. Next best thing might be trying to find a discord for the game you like (however some are extremely degenerate be careful out there)
@@LeonMassey Thanks for responding but i have also had an issue with that. For example i joined like the biggest Tekken 7 server in hopes to get better and to find people. Although it had tons of people on it. It didn't really seem like anyone would play it with me. Which kind of sucked as someone who's trying to get into it lol. Do you possibly know any good ones? or and guilty gear, fighterz, or most fighting games tbh you wouldn't mind telling me?
Also forgot to add this i found you very recently and you make content better than some of the bigger creators I have watched your videos are informative and well edited keep up the great work
@@lambo8686 hmm that sounds rough, tbh I've always played alone online but then found the community I liked offline. From what I know the guilty gear crowd discord is quite good, but they are VERY picky about connections. Unfortunately I can't be much help :(
For Iori's moveset he uses a different fighting style but still has similarities like Kyo's. Kyo's crouch punch and crouch kicks are more faster and offensive and has a quick recovery frame. With Iori his crouch punch and crouch kicks are similar interms of offense to me but his crouch kicks has a longer recover frame than Kyo's
In old games (like Super Turbo) it was more than just time saving, it was also about the memory. Most sprites you see in old arcade games aren't even one sprite, they're a composite of multiple smaller sprites, and every single line of data is taking up precious space on your megabytes large memory. So if you can make a new character or move by taking already existing sprites in the game (like the shoto body) and changing one sprite (the one that makes up the head) you're basically hitting two pixies with one fireball.
This reminds me of the "echo fighter" situation. For the first several smash games, characters that had similar movesets to others were often written off as clone characters and wasted slots. However, when they were given an official title in ultimate, suddenly everyone wanted more of them. It's amazing how a simple rebranding can change public perception so much.
Only braindead people ask for more clones
It’s strange how Dr. Mario and Toon Link aren’t considered Echoes, for example.
I never realized videos about fighting games could be so boring until I started watching your videos. That's something to be proud of.
Good video. Particularly with in the context of Guilty Gear I think a big part of the reason the clone characters (Order Sol and Robo Ky) are so distinct from their original is because the game already contains an outlet for variant expressions of all the characters; although most EX versions aren't particularly well balanced it still provides means of cheaply doubling the cast for casuals, a space to dump unused assets (some of which were added to the base characters in later versions) and several interesting 'what if' concepts (what if Venom wasn't a charge character). I wish more games would include this feature, even if it's never balanced.
everytime you put skullgirls into a video, i see it as an easter egg since it's so short and rare, it's like one of the only things i actively look for in your video
Love that FG content here. Hope you blow up in the near future, more people should watch these cause they are both informative and entertaining
what's the software at 9:28 with the code?
4:10 😔 how you gonna absolutely tear into grapplers like that? I just think grabs and throws look cool..... let me be a wrestler..... 😿incineroar gang😿
Look your alright as people but your long term video game choices are bootyhole, sorry chief, I only speak the truth B^)
@@LeonMassey god im so offended... but your content is so high quality and you have such cool sunglasses... 😔 i guess i have no choice but to stay subscribed and support you
@@MrBoingus ahhh the sunglasses always keep 'em coming back 😎
@@LeonMassey I am also a grappler main, life is suffering but i get to be the biggest character on the screen and by extension the strongest so no one can take that from me.
@@StarkMaximum Big =/= strong
nice to see the melee shoutout! i only play melee so it was to see you bring it up. great stuff!
Another thing about clones is that they allow a player to try a different playstyle without having to learn a completely new moveset. Take Ryu and Ken, one's based more on zoning, the other on explosive offense. Yet because they basically share the same moves, it's easier for someone to move from one to the other, than say switching from Ryu to try Chun Li.
I can't express the moment I saw Ken in SFV and noticed how he finally differentiated from Ryu
Glad the algorithm recommended your channel to me, this content is godlike. Keep up the good work 👍
“The beauty in clones”
You either like Noob Saibot, Naruto, or platform fighters
10:36
Did you forget to add some kind of clip of an unnamed short streamer here?
My hand has never moved so fast when I saw the notif for this vid
Your Humor is awesome + i liked your topic choosing it's so goo0oo0d and your vids are amazing i watched everyone of them more than twice ! Also I respect it when you are talking about a game i don't understand/doesn't have interest in " Like Tekken" yet you still explain it which gets your point faster than assuming the viewers knows everything. Keep it up man ! c;
Kilgore and Shin Hisako are actually super different from their original counterparts, Kilgore uses machine guns that Fulgore can't and Shin Hisako is much faster and simpler than regular Hisako
0:15 what game is that?
"Eslaf2" "Eslaf++" depending on if you want to go by the official name or not, currently in development and is only accessible through the devs patreon :)
I thought this video was called "The Beauty in Clothes" and I still sat through this
Why do you gotta do my boy King dirty like that???? Joking aside this video is great, I can only assume it's a matter of time untill your channel is gigantic, because this content is incredible, keep it up man!
Another factor to be taken into account that's obvious but underappreciated is that a clone character can be identical and still feel differently just because it looks differently. Personal and vague example but in my head Kuma is a wild beast who attacks with no mercy while Panda is considerate creature who puts more forethought into her attacks, I'm well aware that they are equal but just their looks made me come up with a different head cannon that makes me play them differently. Just clothing or color change can do the same thing but having it as a separate character reinforces these difference in optics which can influence how a character is viewed without changing how the character works.
0:38 My nigga it's super hard to pause at exact moments like these watching on TV 😌
Quality vid, fella.
Y'hit me with a good smile with that Marduk line.
You're spot on; I've described this exact comparison to several people looking at all 3 of those characters when deciding who to play.
5:30 jokes on you, i guessed 11!
I love clones for two reasons:
1) more content in less time while also giving devs some hard earned chill,
2) clones are basically "Hey so you liked the moveset but not the playstyle of the character? Here's a character with the same moveset but a different playstyle, now it might be perfect for you!"
Amazing video, really well edited and informative. Also, I'd be SO interested to hear what made you stop loving melee.
That's actually probably a really good topic for a video, ty
@@LeonMassey This would be a really cool video
Your videos are amazing and the production value is PHENOMENAL. Its shocking that you haven't even hit 2k but I'm sure you'll hit over 200k in no time if you keep making high-quality videos like this. Big props to you.
I liked all the one-frame comments.
This is a quality video that I got recommended. The work, comparisons, details, and generally everything was great! New fan, alright!
Leon out here roasting Melee and Killer Instinct but me and other SNK fans are just crying in the corner because Kyo, Iori and Kusanagi weren't even considered.
You can literally make a whole ass team with only Kyo
@@MiloKuroshiro there is a kyo clone team in kof 2002 um
I love clones. Especially if their differences are small but impactful.
You know, I want to avoid playing dragon ball fighterz because 6 characters, are goku but with different hair color. now I watched this video, and I am still not buying that game because I never watched dragon ball in my life.
*Edit: since everyone says I do not really need to watch the show to get the game. I will look into purchasing eventually but I need to learn skull girls first.
Well watch or read some dragonball and then make a better judgement 👍
@@tarunjohal9215 the dragon ball series 800 episodes and that is way to much for me to handle. I am not trying to dis the dragon ball fighterz or the dragon ball series but I just cannot watch that much dragon ball and a new game will come out by the time I finish watching half of it. Since this whole game is based off dragon ball fighting I will not know why this guy can create expulsions everywhere or shoot stars at people (I do not know if a character did that in dragon ball.)
@@turtlehub2731 *sigh* I was only trying to make a point on how you shouldn't judge something if you have no idea what is going on, but if course it's your choice bro, I'm not trying to argue with you
@@tarunjohal9215 Sorry if you interpretive that message negatively. I was just explaining why I do not want to watch a long series just to enjoy a fighting game. My apologies.
@@turtlehub2731 it's not a problem mate, I should apologise too if I was being rude or coming off as aggressive.
I found this video last night and now you've become one of my favorite fgc content creators. I love your style of videomaking and I'm really looking forward to what else you have in store. Keep up the good work my man.
1:03 wow 30 plus years later and never realized this 😳
im super late to this video, but Kuma and Panda DO have a gameplay difference, its just so minor that most people dont know or dont care enough about it to count.
In regards to Tekken 7:
King and Armor King = GREAT implementation of "clone" characters
Kuma and Panda = Should be a SIN in this day and age. Unforgivable.
I just can't believe bear players get to make it to tekken god prime twice with the same character it's so sad
The FGC is one mixed bag, but at least we all like punching each other.
Shame Armour King is kinda Trash in Tekken 7. :cry:
Feels like he's built for a different game some days ._.
Thanks to the T7 virjins for making movement useless
this was the first vid of u i watched and the growth since then is nutty, keep up the sexy vids!
FIRST!!!!!!!!!!
I keep coming back to this video just for the Order Sol part. Just the questioning, confused "+37 ?????" just tickles my funny bone I can't help but giggle every time
A good explanation for this is a quote from initial d that sums this up pretty well.
"while the Trueno and Levin are like twin siblings both engines have different tuning methods which make them run like different cars. The car method that gets used in a car without a turbo charger is called mechanical tuning which is common in which Takumi's Trueno is. His foot on the accelerator controls the rpms directly and it's instant response is its strength. Even after entering a corner near its top speed, it can make adjustments to its attack giving it good advantage. In other words he can attack the corners more aggressively than his turbo could ever do. When it comes to entering corners, their types of cars are best suited for the road. However he points out that the Levin is a turbo it might be a hair slower on corning than the Trueno but how it accelerates on a straight lines covers that difference between the two. Turbos are better in exiting corners."
DBFZ has a hundred Gokus but they all play differently and that is amazing. A Base Goku main can look at UI mains and just call them apes. SSJ Goku mains wouldn't say much since those stopped existing since his 2M nerf. Gogeta and Vegito are Gokus and play entirely different from each othef despite both sharing similar J.2H moves and being both fusions. And then there's Bluku who tries to dabs on every other Goku because they got a 17 frame command grab and then UI is just the most gorilla variant of Goku there is despite being farther from it than GT Goku and then there's-
Idk if im just stupid but ive had this video on my recommended for like 2 weeks and i always read it as 'The Beauty in Chaos' and only when i clicked on it did i see it said clones lmao
Hey this was dope. Good work bud. I'm gonna go binge your other videos
To me, 'clones' in fighting games is comparable to taking the ingredients from one dish but slightly tweaking the recipe a bit to make a dish while similar, stands out with its own taste and its way of being made. For example, Ryu is like a regular chicken sandwich with mayonnaise and asiago cheese, while Ken is a spicy chicken sandwich with honey mustard and sharp cheddar cheese. Similar components, but widely differing flavors. That's the beauty of 'clone' characters.
It's been two minutes, why is there _so much fly-by text_
I just logged in to tell you how awesome your content is.
I just found you, saw a few videos, and was like: damn, this might be my favourite content creator.
no, really!
You have been on fire recently man!
Great Video as always!
Recommended video by TH-cam and never been so happy. Subscribed :)
Just discovered your channel, mate and I'm loving what I'm seeing. Glad to see more fun FG content out there. Keep up the good work!
I was looking for a vid about fighting game clones a couple weeks ago i’m glad I came across this!
I really believed that at some point Siegfried and Nightmare would be mentioned
Finally, I found a channel that talks about smash and other fighting games!
these 1-frame long footnotes are infuriating to pause for on mobile. that aside great video
Just wanted to say congrats on the newfound growth of your channel! I love your content and I subscribed maybe a week ago and I swear you must've been like under 1k subs then. Now you're already at 5k. Looking forward to seeing more content from you!
How is it possibile that you have 5k subscribers with this quality man this videos are 🔥🔥
Really have been enjoying your content. Looking forward to seeing more!
Man, you grew from 3.3k to 4k in 1 day. You got some good content, keep growing man!
Dude we really need more youtube channels like you
There's also Lambda-11 in Blazblue. Started as a clone but now she is the closest thing to the original character (NU-13) while Nu changed into a full zoner.
By Blazblue standards, where everyone has a gimmick completely unique to them INCLUDING alternate versions of the same character (Izayoi vs. Tsubaki, Noel vs. Mu, Terumi vs. Hazama if you want to count that), Lambda's still pretty bad. I'm pretty sure they even have the EXACT same normals, only differing in the Special and Distortion department where all but 1 or 2 of Lambda's moves are just Nu's with some altered properties. They didn't even bother to give her a unique Astral or at least make an alternate version of Nu's.
@@espurrseyes42 No, the likes of izayoi, mu and terumi aren't clones. I don't know which Blazblue you played but lambda is now very different from Nu as of central fiction.
Her normals are mostly the same as Nu, yes, but lambda can drive cancel 6c and has retained a standing overhead in 6b. Her drives and specials are all different or have different properties (instant second sword on d, lockdown storm sickle, spike chaser vs luminous, gravity field float...)
@@renatoramos8834
When did I say Izayoi and co. were clones? I believe I said "alternate versions of the same character", which is true (Mu is Noel's Murakumo form, Izayoi is Tsubaki using the released form of her weapon, Hazama is Terumi's vessel, made to look similar to a previous vessel of Terumi's, all 3 looking very similar).
The same Blazblue where Lambda was created to be a nerfed clone of Nu to keep her gameplay around before killing off the character and reviving Nu the next game which a stance change gimmick that let her alternative between her original properties and Lambda's properties, literally making her an Alternate Nu before THAT got axed in Extend and Nu's second form just got turned into Lambda with like 1 new move before CF decided to give them a few more differences.
For all intents and purposes, she is still an Alternate Nu. Their drives may have different properties and frame data, but the animations are still the same (aside from new swords for Lambda). They may have some different specials, but most of them are only "different" in the sense that they're they same as something Nu does/did with altered properties (Crescent, Sickle Storm, Gravity Seed) or is a, for the most part, a "unique" move that still uses a Nu move as a base (Parser Zwei and related moves, including Exiga Nail), her only truely unique move being her Exceed Accel. And as already stated, the majority of her normals are the same as Nu's. All that's different is that her 5B is Nu's 6B (though the same animation is used for Counter Assault) and her 6B is that weird flip overhead.
Yeah, there are differences here and there, making her not as bad as Daisy or Richter are in Smash, but by BB's higher standards where every character has a unique gimmick (Drive) that their playstyle is focused around, Lambda is more or less a Nu clone when compared to the likes of Terumi vs. Hazama, Izayoi vs. Tsubaki, or Noel vs. Mu.
Actually, I should be saying Nu vs. Mu since both are Murakumo fighters and the latter does borrow some animations from her predecessor. But unlike Lambda, Mu has her own unique gimmick (Steins), and she doesn't borrow nearly as much stuff from Nu as Lambda does. THAT (and Terumi) is how you take an existing character's base and make a new, unique character out of it. And then you have Alternate Nu being comparatively as bad as the average Smash clone.
@@espurrseyes42 This is a video about clone characters, so it's irrelevant to talk about izayoi, terumi and mu. And it seems like you really hate lambda. The fact stands that nu and lambda now play very differently AND lambda has several unique moves that nu never had.
@@renatoramos8834
It's very much relevant to talk about them, Terumi especially, to show how lazy ASW got when bringing Lambda back as her own character. And yes, I do hate Lambda. Just like I hate every other clone character even when I would've otherwise like the character themselves. The fact that's that Lambda is just Nu with altered properties on some duplicate moves and very few unique moves that aren't based on something Nu does/did whereas the likes of Terumi and the rest have different gimmicks from the characters they're based on and have a lot more unique moves than Lambda does.
Like I said, *by Blazblue's higher standard, where characters have a gimmick (Drive) that their playstyle is based around, Lambda is for all intents and purposes an Alternate Nu rather than a unique character like the the Drive system is supposed to encourage.* You can say they have differences all you want, but that doesn't change how she pales in comparison to how different the aforementioned "Alt Form" characters are from their parents, including Mu, who borrows some animations and moves from Nu while still having PLENTY of her own stuff, including a completely different Drive. It sounds to me like you're just a Lambda/Mori SIMP and can't listen to reason.
God bless the algorithm, just found you and am absolutely in love with the content. Keep it up homie.
Clones don't exist anymore
Daisy: ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT
i like how everytime he's showing sol he's in single player but the order sol footage in multiplayer
hey, this showed up in my recommends and I'm kinda glad I checked in. Honestly now wish I found these sooner! Had me laughing p hard and pausing for all the jokes. good shit duder
Fire vid once again
Just found your videos recently and honestly i love the way you have been doing vids, lookin forward to you blowing ip
When you said that there's still a lot of development work to change sprites like Sol and Order Sol's c.S, you're forgetting that 2D game sprites are made by multiple people. First, there's the animator, who sketches the motions, then there's the cleanup artist who turns it into pixel art or does coloring and palette in the case of Skullgirls. That means that there's no need to employ an animator for any identical sprites. That saves a lot of time and money.
Pleasantly suprised by how good this video was,TH-cam algorithm actually working for once
Keep this content up man. This is really good shit. You can talk about Gear as much as you want man, give me more.
These videos are absolutely fantastic.
Literally just found this channel before I was sleep only to watch all of your content, but honestly it baffles me that this high fgc is quality content has given you low subscribers.You my friend have earn a sub keep up the good work and have a nice da.
this was an awesome video
Thanks for talking about order sol :) I like order sol, he has the good song