I love you JP and have watched many of your lectures and read one of your books. It seems to me that lately, you have felt so attacked by the left, which you have been, that you are coming from a place of defensiveness more and more often in response. I don't blame you for wanting to defend yourself or for feeling attacked but I think when you respond from that defensive place, with anger and a witty sharp-tongued argument that aims to obliterate the opposing view (which you do very well), the effect is not what you have always claimed to be aiming for: more awareness and understanding - less suffering in the world - people coming together despite their differences in a sincere effort to make the world a better place. I think of myself as a liberal and in the past, one of the things I liked about you was how you could see both sides and help each end of the spectrum understand the opposing point of view. That was real value added to the discussion, and boy do we need that right now in these times of polarization. Recently however, your tone has changed and you seem most interested in proving that conservatives are right and liberals are wrong. After listening to this type of discussion I as a liberal am left feeling very misunderstood and misrepresented. And it makes me sad and like I can't keep listening because there's no honest effort to see where both sides might be coming from. It's not that what you are criticizing is invalid. The left has a real shadow side that when carried to an extreme does not work (to put it mildly) for anyone. But the same is true about conservative beliefs in the extreme. Extreme=Bad Can we all agree on that at least? I think each side relates to the other as if the extreme represents the whole. Both extremes being ugly and threatening makes moderates caught in this perspective think the threat justifies taking the gloves off to fight an evil. But the more we all do that, the more we prove the opposing side's point. This makes it easier and easier to project shadow onto the other, dehumanize them, lose touch with our empathy for them etc. You know where that leads - Hell. Please please please stop using your abundant gifts to prove how awful liberals are. Plenty of right wing news outlets are covering that already. What we need is more people to take the side of common sense and truth and point out how and why each side misunderstands the intentions of the other. Someone to explain and differentiate the intentions of each side vs. the actual effects. Can we get back to honestly looking at a problem and trying to find solutions that will satisfy the valid needs of each side rather than focus all our energy on being right and making the other side wrong? There is no cheese at the end of that tunnel. Wish we all could know that on a deeper more automatic level than we seem to. We humans are all married to each other because we share this one planet. In my 27 years of marriage one thing I have learned is that I don't win unless we both win. I need to carry that approach into every disagreement with my husband. If I don't we just end up circling the same issue over and over again wearing each other down into dust. This approach is super hard to muster when I feel under repeated attack but the earlier in the discussion I can remember to reorient myself toward win/win the shorter the argument and the faster we return to love and peace. Sometimes this means taking many jabs and steadfastly refusing to respond in any way that is not constructive. It's so tempting to attack back. When I am being my best self I remember that my husband is only attacking because he feels attacked. Everyone's defensive mode can be an ugly monster. Yours and mine included. We all need to consciously bring our most loving and constructive selves to the discussion of how the hell we are going to save ourselves and this planet from the messes we've gotten ourselves into. You JP have so many gifts that could help enormously to move humankind toward something better. Please find a way to set your defense system aside knowing that the "liberal perspective" is in no way fully represented by the people that have attacked you on twitter or protested you. I am a liberal and I love you and I think you've made excellent points about the trans issue and many others. You've broadened my view on many things. If you continue from a defensive posture, you will limit the reach of your message by half simply because people don't like feeling attacked and told who they are and how they feel and that they are simply wrong. I say this humbly with love in my heart and sincere intention to be the difference I want to see in the world. I see you as coming from the same. We all have to help each other be the best selves we can be. May truth set us all free.
You're right, he needs to see this. I'm not liberal, but I wouldn't call me conservative neither. I'd like to share JP's content to the intellectual lefties in my surroundings, as I believe his personality/psychology/theology(?) courses had clear unbiaised and sourced material. Alas, if JP tries to influence actively with his social conservatism I fear he might only get cornered to the right leaning people. I think he should keep his opinions to a smaller group (not twitter) and take time if the topic is heated. I think that if someone find (objectivish) value in his teachings, that person would necesserally be more patient/tolerant to understand/accept JP's opinions.
When I first saw how long your post was, I thought "do I really want to read all this?" But I quickly realised that it was one of the best posts I've ever read on the internet. Such wisdom and sincerity. Everyone should read this, Dawn. It's perfectly fine if you say no, but may I have your permission to quote this on my Facebook page? I wouldn't include your name (unless you wanted me to).
Thats what i thought too. I think a lot of people find the confrontation awkward and can’t deal with it, on either side of the argument. This happens with my family all the time when I start digging my heels in 😅
These are the exact sorts of conversations we need to see more of on YT. Not pandering to viewers and reaffirming biases and dividing people further. But open debates between people who are *comfortable* with one another. There's a real gap in the market for this: you can only really do it with good friends. And I think the resulting message is so good: you can see the principle in action that disagreeing doesn't have to be the end of the world. It promotes healthy exchange of ideas, something that is sorely lacking in today's society.
The only people watching this are conservative leaning types. Liberals by definition are not interested in hearing other points of view. They call it conspiracy thinking and get their booster shot. They are sheep can’t handle disagreement.
@@bryanutility9609 Yup I agree by and large but conservatives aren't perfect either. There's a tonne of conservatives who could learn how to disagree healthily with lefties.
@@jpa_fasty3997 I find I can almost always talk about any issue with conservatives I’ve met in person. Can’t speak for public figures arguing in front of a camera tho.
The liberal doesn’t seem to be handling his emotions well at all he’s very excited. Liberals have poor emotional control generally and can’t handle disagreement. I lost all mine and I don’t talk to liberals anymore. They’ll just take their 5th booster shot.
I see your point but this man is young, he may learn still. It is encouraging that the conversation was had with transparency for the world to see. It was certainly no Kathy Newman experience.
The beautiful young lady in question would have been the pinnacle of beauty in times past and would still be in many cultures. Cultures (including our own Western one) are dynamic. JP is wrong… point blank. As for “healthy bodies”…. Women power lifters are fit and strong….Olympic throwers…. Etc etc. The Sports Illustrated models are for the most part NOT ATHLETES… they are lingerie models!!! 😂😂😂😂
@@TheArtofEngineering She should be on the cover of a magazine that is for those cultures then. If you are going to pose your gross fat body on the cover of one of the biggest magazines of all time, you should be ready for a hailstorm of negative reactions.
He's a personal friend of peterson. You can tell by the way he compliments peterson even as he criticizes him and from peterson's general demeanor during this conversation. And I do see this more as a conversation among friends rather than a debate.
He just said "that's right" and offered no defensive argument to having tweeted. I haven't seen yet where he talked about her as if 12 but he did say "obesity is NOT healthy". I do NOT agree with him on everything, but he takes responsibility for his imperfections.
All he needed to say was that HE did not find her beautiful. what was wrong with his comment is that he was speaking on behalf of some objective truth about beauty! who tf does he think he is? beauty standards have evolved over time and place so that in other parts of the world she is considered extremely desirable and in this part of the world way back she was not ugly. after all beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. except JP's eyes seem to hold the world he's at the center of... apparently.
Wrong, and evidently you're overweight by the way you're defending the model. What Peterson was saying is that an overweight person (yes, male or female) doesn't belong on the cover of a sports/fitness magazine, especially when it's so obviously agenda driven.
@@jwil4905 I am not wrong. evidently you are American only you people are that stupid to ignore history and what happens to the rest of the world today... see how easy it is to assume dumbly about people.
I didn't feel much friendship going on here. Not because a friend can't call you out on you bs but the jabs are not out of concern but out of anger for the way he questions the leftist dogma. The only thing this friend wants is to shut him up from topics he finds sacred.
@@MASJYT where is JBP’s right wing friend? Why’s he always kissing leftist ass? Why pander to people destroying our society? How about talk to a white nationalist? Talk to some who recognizes white people are under attack.
Agreed And, it’s lovely to see how Peterson is delicate w responding w what is a regardless very contentious scenario to ever contend these different points. And I can admire that
The problem is that Jordan made it personal by saying “not beautiful.” Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If he wanted to make a better point, he should have said, “Not healthy.” The he should have went after sports Illustrated for exploiting an unhealthy young woman for their personal financial gain.
I admire Jordan Peterson and find his discussions so interesting including this one but I am really stuck on why this model is referred to as 'obese'. Obviously she has extra weight, no dispute there but I don't see her as 'obese'.
This is the type of argument and directness you can only have with friends - you have to trust the other guy doesn't actually hate you to let someone lambast you like that. He made some great points, interesting to see JP has this type of friend.
Peterson's responses gave me some renewed respect for him. He was able to recognize weaknesses in his argument and admit it. This can be difficult to do especially publicly.
Not in this instance his action was cruel and judgemental against a girl around his own daughters age, who is only guilty of taking an opportunity. It makes him come across and an incel sympathiser, focusing on a young women's body and commenting on health, none of us ever called him a drug addict! I think he was thoughtless here and I do hope the fact he has had so much of a voice and influence has not gone to his head now he has and recieved so much support respect and admiration for the majority of his views. Because he has always been not only smart but had heart, yet less so here... he became personal and involved were he need not have, to bring a young woman such unnecessary drama.
He behaved appallingly. It was ridiculous and immature and frankly insane of him to trash some random woman online and call her ugly for being overweight. A completely ridiculous thing to have done. Jordan Peterson has things to offer the world, but he is addicted to social media, too attached to his celebrity and it is undeniable that he has anger towards women. If you think that’s not true, imagine how this conversation would have gone if he had been targeted by the exact same arguments, word for word, but the interviewer were female.
I think he spoke in a more understandable and relatable way than Peterson. Sometimes Peterson seems as if he's trying too hard to sound like a scholar... Using far too complex language for his audience to understand on the first listen!
@@AACBrit I am often accused of the same thing. However, it is rather a constant striving for brevity and clarity, both of which are achieved through technical terms (jargon). These terms exist for those very reasons. If you cannot follow Peterson read a few of the seminal books he suggests reading, so you can encode new concepts in your mind, and their interrelationships, at your own pace. Then you will understand that it has already been enormously simplified for you.
@@truthTramp I'm not saying I don't understand what he's trying to articulate. I'm saying *sometimes* his prose is less impactful to those who don't. The full breadth of the English language is criminally neglected, but knowing your audience (a large chunk of whom don't have the time nor the will to entertain flowery language) is an important factor. It's something that most professionals are trained to do - tailor the complexity of your advice to your target audience. He does that quite a bit with analogies and hypotheticals
This guy kept throwing low blows in his arguments so I couldn't take him seriously, just have a conversation with the man and stop trying to get a gotcha moment🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️.
He went his hardest on jordan. That's his friendship agreement to create the strongest argument possible against Jordan. So when he said (in paraphrase) you want to draw a line right. But you said "Sorry, not beautiful". That's not very clear of what jordan was meaning to say. But because he was upset with the article he made a joke about it instead of being careful and precise. For jordan, careful and precise are his two best virtues. He wasn't his best and even he admits to this point. Look I love him but he's not perfect, he's our best.
@@itsmevsme7308 This has nothing to do with Jordan being perfect which he has pointed out that he isn't, it is the way he presented his arguments that I have issue with. There is argument to be said against how Jordan Peterson presented his tweet and that I agree with despite understanding where he is coming from. The problem like I said, is that he kept throwing those low blow insults and that quickly turns off an audience that has an opposing view whereby of he stuck to the facts, it opens people up to your views.
No, this is how debate happens between smart friends. The guy is right. Let us do what Jordan wants us to do, to look at objective points. Listen to the last 2 mins and that is the point.
No, he's just frustrated because Jordan is not admitting what he said about the model is wrong. I don't think what he said about Ellen Page is wrong though.Also there are women athletes in Short Put and Discus Throw who look like that. In fact she's 100 times healthier than the bags of steroid that makes the front cover of Sports Illustrated constantly. And many people like that body type believe me we do. He doesn't have a good point here.
@@SrMway Most of those Shot Put and Discus Throw athletes have a lot of muscle under that fat as well, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do what they do so effectively with just fat alone. I prefer women with curves than those without (just on personal preference), but I'm not going to pretend that fat is healthy beyond a certain body %.
@@darkcrow42 Did you dig her body to see that there's no muscle? 🤣🤣 No one outside of USA and a handful of western countries suffers from this delusion that unless a woman look malnourished she cannot look sexy. And I know for a fact that you dont care about promoting unhealthy lifestyle or something because you'll watch James bond order Vodka Martini shaken not stirred all day long. So this is not about any of that. The world does not mean USA or the west so don't talk about beauty standards as if you decide for the rest of us what it should be.
What, wait! When I was 25 I had a University degree, a full time job, an infant daughter and a slew of responsibilities. This model is 25, not 12. Stop offending young women by insinuating they do not have the wherewithal to think for themselves.
@@DudeMan-xs3db if you are a legal adult who consents to do shoot pornography, you aren't exploited. Perhaps a bit naive, but not exploited. Women in the sex slave trade who are sexually assaulted on camera are exploited.
As a 25 year old grown up woman she made the decision to present her body on a magazine for sportswear. Well done, working as a waitress she earns same salary in a month or two. Why did she chose this very unflattering bathing suit? Don't know. I think she is very well proportioned, don't like the skinny girls. This bathingsuit does not do any good for her though.
Seems like JP was being talked down to the whole first half and the fact he wouldn't express shame made the dude angrier. At least it got more civil in the end.
In some of his lectures and videos JP alludes to having a friend in the top 1% of disagreeableness that goes into companies and enjoys firing people that don't pull their weight where JP would struggle with it and refers to that friend as a great friend to have because he keeps JP in check. I'm pretty sure this was the guy he was talking about
First time I’ve seen someone own JP. Jordan really had no good defense for his very I’ll advised tweet, but I have lots of respect for his willingness to be schooled publicly.
It's about time JP has someone who can actually help him understand where he gets it wrong. It's a shame most people on here are still white knighting JP worse than girls on twitch or OF showing their cleavage. Stop looking up to the guy like he's a god and just focus on your own life. Grow some balls of your own instead of using his. "If you over-esteem great men, the people will become powerless." -Tao Te Ching, Verse 3
She chose to put herself out there to be judged by her looks....she just expected it to be positive. On a side not the guy on the right is soft as charmin
She didn't know what she was doing at 25...if people are seriously saying a western educated women isn't capable of making important life decisions at 25 then why are we bothering!!!.😡💕🇺🇸🇺🇦
@@caravanstuff2827 -"She didn't know what she was doing at 25" - excellent point, and yet we now have a town in Los Angeles county trying to pass a law to allow 16 year olds to vote, while studies psychological, medical and otherwise have shown that the human brain is not fully matured until one is (on average) about 23 years old.
This guy is frustrating because he doesn’t listen and overtalks JP. So that in order for JP to either make a point or finish a point, he has to interrupt too. You can see JP struggling to listen and retort.
JP is one of those guys who I totally agree with on some things and totally disagree with on other things. But I've noticed he's popping up everywhere. He seems to be on every possible media show. TH-cam might as well be renamed the JP show. I'm wondering if he's succumbing to the narcissism he often criticizes others for... such is his desire to let the world know his opinion about just about everything. And how right he thinks he thinks he is. The guy on the right, however, needs to shut up for a minute and let JP reply instead of talking over him in a sort of arrogant bullying fashion. That wasn't a debate, it was lecturing by the guy on the right. How can I tell if JP is talking crap or not if he can't explain his position?
I love the fact that the man challenging Peterson was once his student at Harvard. These videos are 99999x better than those "Peterson destroys feminists" videos. Please keep these snippets coming.
The suggestion that perhaps you should think before posting anything, would you say it to their face, is an interesting idea. Perhaps you refrain from opining and let reality play itself out. In the case of the model, personally, I would be friends with her if we were compatible with each other and treat her with the dignity and respect everyone should have if they earn such treatment. However, for me, friendship is where it would stop as there would be no physical attraction motivation to pursue anything past friendship. As far as health and athleticism, again let it play out. In sports at almost any level, the lean, high cardio, individual will be best equipped to dominate any physical contest between them which would discredit the idea that you can be physically unhealthy and optimize the chances of winning a sports event against healthier peers. In time, if people are fair minded, will reject the idea and organizations like Sports Illustrated, to remain economically viable, will have to revert back to publishing characters that are physically credible to maintain their existence.
Sports illustrated is an institution? What reality is that from. Sprots illustrated ceased to be anything truly respectable as a magazine representing people of sport, or swim suites, for that matter, a long time ago. the magazine has become woke and is mostly a joke.
Great conversation. I'm wishing the "democrat friend" had a bit more command over his emotional response. His incessant shouting and dominating the conversation lost him credibility in my view. So cool you're friends! Love it!
The best part of this disagreement is the laughter & ability to accept counterpoints & even personal digs without taking themselves so seriously which is rarely seen from JP. Laughing at ourselves is very disarming
This is such a refreshing view of JBP - Love him and this conversation!! Sometimes it's great to see your heroes lose an argument. I thought the friend was hilarious and JBP clearly thought so too
Part 6:30 The guy semi arguing with Jordan says, "People pay u so many compliments so it's funny when I have to in the course to make the argument but it pains me so much" "It's like when I beat u at most things, its just painful" If this guy beat Jordan at most things then this guy's intellect would be well known. I don't know this guy at all, I stumbled onto this video only because Jordan Peterson is in it. But anyway Jordan Peterson listens and then speaks but this guy constantly cuts in before Jordan gets a chance to finish what he is saying. I think this guy has an underlying issue with Jordan. I think he is just low-key jealous of Jordans influence and success. In this debate he just wants the chance to oneup Jordan; this is an ego thing
Well, having listened to the whole thing, they joke, tease and poke at each other a lot. I believe it is just friendly banter. And after he gives him some very, very strong compliments, so strong that many people would balance them with something else, just to not sound too flattering. "You are of the great minds of the generation, you have a transformative intellect...", etc. I also think he raises some very valuable criticism that I wished Jordan not just laughed it off.
Your argument posits that the people with the greatest intellect are well known, which is obviously false. The people with the greatest intellect are probably scientists and engineers and you'll never know their names. People like Joe Rogan are very well known but I wouldn't put him in the greatest intellect category (I'm sure he would agree).
@@jeremymcpherson007 No I said if this guy beats Jordan at most things then he's intellect would be well known. You're missing the points entirely. The first point is I don't think he beats Jordan at most things (that itself is a patronising statement to claim beating someone at most things) and the main point is that this guy seems to have a problem with Jordan. He is very impatient and doesn't listen in order to understand what the other person is saying, he listens just so that he can speak again (doesn't try to understand, just wants to win). He was very patronising as in he was displaying a pattern of saying negative things about Jordan in his argument such as it pains him to give Jordan a compliment or that he claims to beat Jordan at most things or that Jordan says things sometimes that he would consider stupid. Its like he has an underlying problem with him; maybe Jelousy or envy. The point is he's revealing negativity traits in his character.
@@vegarguleng1748 OK I think the whole interview debate thing was like an hour long, I listened to this section but haven't watched the entire long debate. In this section at least the guy is quick to speak and does appear to be patronising but in a jokey way (patronising nonetheless). Jordan wasn't being patronising, he was just making points to validate his argument only. The other guy, however, was sliding personal opinions about Jordan that suggest he maybe has an underlying issue with Jordan; jelousy or envy maybe. Jordan I think has just learned to take criticism or patronising remarks because he deals with it all the time. I do also get the sense that they are friends but I feel low-key this guy is jealous or envious of Jordan.
Good God, all that lefty guy could do was talk about emotions. Sitting there smugly talking over the top of Jordan Peterson. Lefty friend continually denigrates the model as some kind of Victim. Decent behavior was the only victim during this so called debate. Jordan Peterson, next time debate someone who will use facts instead of emotions. I score this a 3/10
At 25, I was married, had a baby, and finishing my surgical residency. This 25 year old model should realize that she’s not skinny and that SI is using her to be controversial (pushing “body positivity”) and that a lot of people won’t appreciate the fact that she’s plus sized. You shouldn’t make a decision like that then complain and cry over the fact that you’re being called bad names, etc. If haters bother you then you’re in the wrong business. Everyone in that industry gets bullied, regardless of how you look. It’s brutal and not something I would ever want to do.
We don't expect enough from young people today. Yes, 25 is young but at 25 myself and my friends had degrees, were working in respectable jobs and knew our worth was much more than our body. We respected ourself too much to focus on something we were simply born with, not something we accomplished
Ahh now I can see JPs agreeableness that he always talks about. We tend to attract self glorifying friends like these at our expense.. I’ve been tryna set boundaries with these types. 😂
Being overweight can lead to plenty comorbidities, it IS unhealthy. Similar as anorexia/bolemia. Why do we have to catapult from one extreme to another?
Have you taken her blood or BMI or anything that would actually substantiate a claim of bad health???? You can say she isn’t pretty in your opinion without sounding like a moron. But pretty doesn’t mean healthy ask any trained physician.
I’m really happy they talked about this. The Bible says to tell the truth in love. You can tell the truth without destroying a person’s self worth. I felt like his diatribe on the sports illustrated magazine was horrible, and I love JP. And you bring up your daughter who is not plus size and is a product of you to back you up on it is very problematic and did not hold up at all. I also don’t understand what he means by “beauty” perhaps it’s not a health standard but why is she not beautiful? What makes her any less beautiful than the anorexic models that have been on the cover? No one ever talks about women who are extremely skinny, THATS NOT HEALTHY EITHER, they die from that as well. But anyway, this was a great video and what the Bible calls iron sharpening iron.
FIRST time I saw JP laughed so heartily. He is a serious person so to witness him laugh like hard is refreshing. They must have a close relationship like kindred spirits.
I think that was a wonderfully articulated and artful tweet that expressed the reality and the Truth of the situation. It’s a shame that most are offended by it and unfortunately can’t appreciate the honest message behind it.
Someone should pick out some feature of yours that they don't like and go public with it and shame the shit out of you. Then maybe you'd understand how wrong that was of JP.
I think the tweet made sense to those of us who are in on the conversation, and seemed mean to people who are not part of the conversation. Most people I know don't know who Jordan Peterson is and have never heard of fat studies or fat acceptance. I think the inartfulness (It's a word, or at least I'm pretending it is) of the tweet was that it was directed at people in the conversation, but it went to EVERYONE, and that created the problem.
What’s happening is, people are pretending not to understand the context in order to get offended. Everyone knows including the poor 25 year old girl who agreed to accept a healthy paycheck and publicity that obese models are something that is being publicly debated.
Maybe let Peterson finish his sentence for once. I love to hear debates but when once side constantly tries to shut up the other and doesn't shut up for a second and listen, it's frustrating as hell.
Definitely a great back and forth between friends lol. I can see where Peterson's friend is coming from - but the reality is Peterson was just trying to speak out against the virtue signaling marketing. And not the best, as he admits
I listen to Jordan Peterson and agree on most things he says but he definitely got this wrong. He got it wrong from a social, medical and ethical point of view.
everyone in the comments are fanboys of jp unable to hear any criticism of him. Theyre friends and this is a good faith debate and somehow you're so offended by it.
I've never seen a girl play a sport that was that fat and un-athletic. So i guess at 6'6" i can be on the cover of a short guy magazine?? To diversify it???
Moral of the story, Jordan Peterson hates any women who is confident and unconcerned with his opinion of them. A woman shouldn’t be able to love herself and accept herself unless Jordan Peterson says so and deems her body type not too skinny but not too fat…only perfect bodies deserve respect 😂 this guy is a narcissist. Textbook.
Could homeboy not immediately interrupt every time JP started to respond? He seems to be listening only to respond - and that’s if you can actually call it listening. More like, pausing to allow enough response to further his points, and to not make it a monologue.
That was great. I think too many people find heroes nowadays and align themselves with their idol like jordan Peterson, trump, Obama or even celebrities. I watch jordan Peterson all the time but it was so beneath him having to tweet that. I’m glad someone showed him how silly it was.
Well then slag off all models, the emancipated ones, druggies, the steroid pumpers, give them all a good rattling, don’t send the twitter shitheads on one girl because you don’t find her attractive. Jordan needed that talking to and he knew it.
IMO it’s one thing point point out a potential problem, or disagree on something, but quite another to go after an individual, and when there is blowback, to double down. JP can count himself lucky Page didn’t sue him for harassment.
This isn't a debate. This is some guy saying how JP was one-sided, when he's one-sided himself in only focusing on JP, and plus he can't listen as well as JP does. It's like that scene in the movie of that guy getting off the elevator, "I don't think about you at all."
JP let him focus this on the girl. His quibble was with SI, not the girl. He can acknowledge the impact on the girl, but he shouldn’t have let him frame the argument. Also, why is the host there at all?
He made good points but failed to let JP finish a couple of sentences like god damn. LET THE MAN TALK!!
yeah he was 90% of the airtime lol it was entertaining though and it’s kinda cool to see jbp let him just lay into him
J.P. I don't you should make fun of someone. Apologize sincerely and move on with your important work
I love you JP and have watched many of your lectures and read one of your books. It seems to me that lately, you have felt so attacked by the left, which you have been, that you are coming from a place of defensiveness more and more often in response. I don't blame you for wanting to defend yourself or for feeling attacked but I think when you respond from that defensive place, with anger and a witty sharp-tongued argument that aims to obliterate the opposing view (which you do very well), the effect is not what you have always claimed to be aiming for: more awareness and understanding - less suffering in the world - people coming together despite their differences in a sincere effort to make the world a better place. I think of myself as a liberal and in the past, one of the things I liked about you was how you could see both sides and help each end of the spectrum understand the opposing point of view. That was real value added to the discussion, and boy do we need that right now in these times of polarization. Recently however, your tone has changed and you seem most interested in proving that conservatives are right and liberals are wrong. After listening to this type of discussion I as a liberal am left feeling very misunderstood and misrepresented. And it makes me sad and like I can't keep listening because there's no honest effort to see where both sides might be coming from. It's not that what you are criticizing is invalid. The left has a real shadow side that when carried to an extreme does not work (to put it mildly) for anyone. But the same is true about conservative beliefs in the extreme. Extreme=Bad Can we all agree on that at least? I think each side relates to the other as if the extreme represents the whole. Both extremes being ugly and threatening makes moderates caught in this perspective think the threat justifies taking the gloves off to fight an evil. But the more we all do that, the more we prove the opposing side's point. This makes it easier and easier to project shadow onto the other, dehumanize them, lose touch with our empathy for them etc. You know where that leads - Hell. Please please please stop using your abundant gifts to prove how awful liberals are. Plenty of right wing news outlets are covering that already. What we need is more people to take the side of common sense and truth and point out how and why each side misunderstands the intentions of the other. Someone to explain and differentiate the intentions of each side vs. the actual effects. Can we get back to honestly looking at a problem and trying to find solutions that will satisfy the valid needs of each side rather than focus all our energy on being right and making the other side wrong? There is no cheese at the end of that tunnel. Wish we all could know that on a deeper more automatic level than we seem to. We humans are all married to each other because we share this one planet. In my 27 years of marriage one thing I have learned is that I don't win unless we both win. I need to carry that approach into every disagreement with my husband. If I don't we just end up circling the same issue over and over again wearing each other down into dust. This approach is super hard to muster when I feel under repeated attack but the earlier in the discussion I can remember to reorient myself toward win/win the shorter the argument and the faster we return to love and peace. Sometimes this means taking many jabs and steadfastly refusing to respond in any way that is not constructive. It's so tempting to attack back. When I am being my best self I remember that my husband is only attacking because he feels attacked. Everyone's defensive mode can be an ugly monster. Yours and mine included. We all need to consciously bring our most loving and constructive selves to the discussion of how the hell we are going to save ourselves and this planet from the messes we've gotten ourselves into. You JP have so many gifts that could help enormously to move humankind toward something better. Please find a way to set your defense system aside knowing that the "liberal perspective" is in no way fully represented by the people that have attacked you on twitter or protested you. I am a liberal and I love you and I think you've made excellent points about the trans issue and many others. You've broadened my view on many things. If you continue from a defensive posture, you will limit the reach of your message by half simply because people don't like feeling attacked and told who they are and how they feel and that they are simply wrong. I say this humbly with love in my heart and sincere intention to be the difference I want to see in the world. I see you as coming from the same. We all have to help each other be the best selves we can be. May truth set us all free.
I hope he sees this. I totally agree.
@@CarForCause Thank you for the support. So nice to hear another out there thinking along these lines too. Makes me feel a little more hopeful. ❤️
You're right, he needs to see this.
I'm not liberal, but I wouldn't call me conservative neither.
I'd like to share JP's content to the intellectual lefties in my surroundings, as I believe his personality/psychology/theology(?) courses had clear unbiaised and sourced material. Alas, if JP tries to influence actively with his social conservatism I fear he might only get cornered to the right leaning people. I think he should keep his opinions to a smaller group (not twitter) and take time if the topic is heated. I think that if someone find (objectivish) value in his teachings, that person would necesserally be more patient/tolerant to understand/accept JP's opinions.
When I first saw how long your post was, I thought "do I really want to read all this?" But I quickly realised that it was one of the best posts I've ever read on the internet. Such wisdom and sincerity. Everyone should read this, Dawn. It's perfectly fine if you say no, but may I have your permission to quote this on my Facebook page? I wouldn't include your name (unless you wanted me to).
I just wish it wasn't a wall of text. Otherwise very strong content!!
The Democrat friend needs to shut up for a minute
Why? He was making great points. It's refreshing getting to see Jordan acknowledge opposing views.
@@cptpepper7731 No, he wasn't. He was making emotional points, as usual.
I don't see the problem here it's a pretty decent debate.
Thats what i thought too. I think a lot of people find the confrontation awkward and can’t deal with it, on either side of the argument. This happens with my family all the time when I start digging my heels in 😅
The Democrat friend just can’t shut the hell up!
‘Between Two Ferns’ - The Movie
I love how two people can have an actual conversation sharing different points of view.. this is exactly what we need to aim for
These are the exact sorts of conversations we need to see more of on YT. Not pandering to viewers and reaffirming biases and dividing people further. But open debates between people who are *comfortable* with one another. There's a real gap in the market for this: you can only really do it with good friends. And I think the resulting message is so good: you can see the principle in action that disagreeing doesn't have to be the end of the world. It promotes healthy exchange of ideas, something that is sorely lacking in today's society.
The only people watching this are conservative leaning types. Liberals by definition are not interested in hearing other points of view. They call it conspiracy thinking and get their booster shot. They are sheep can’t handle disagreement.
@@bryanutility9609 Yup I agree by and large but conservatives aren't perfect either. There's a tonne of conservatives who could learn how to disagree healthily with lefties.
@@jpa_fasty3997 I find I can almost always talk about any issue with conservatives I’ve met in person. Can’t speak for public figures arguing in front of a camera tho.
yep
Jordan Peterson is very good at respectfully disagreeing with people even if he isn't their friend. It's a skill that needs to be practised.
Huge respect that 2 men can share opposing views while maintaining emotions.
The liberal doesn’t seem to be handling his emotions well at all he’s very excited. Liberals have poor emotional control generally and can’t handle disagreement. I lost all mine and I don’t talk to liberals anymore. They’ll just take their 5th booster shot.
I see your point but this man is young, he may learn still. It is encouraging that the conversation was had with transparency for the world to see. It was certainly no Kathy Newman experience.
@FireproofCrane I don't think he was as bad as Kathy Newman.
The beautiful young lady in question would have been the pinnacle of beauty in times past and would still be in many cultures. Cultures (including our own Western one) are dynamic. JP is wrong… point blank. As for “healthy bodies”…. Women power lifters are fit and strong….Olympic throwers…. Etc etc. The Sports Illustrated models are for the most part NOT ATHLETES… they are lingerie models!!! 😂😂😂😂
@@TheArtofEngineering She should be on the cover of a magazine that is for those cultures then. If you are going to pose your gross fat body on the cover of one of the biggest magazines of all time, you should be ready for a hailstorm of negative reactions.
1. Who tf is the other dude in this debate? 2. Why won't he stfu and let Peterson respond?
He's a personal friend of peterson. You can tell by the way he compliments peterson even as he criticizes him and from peterson's general demeanor during this conversation. And I do see this more as a conversation among friends rather than a debate.
@@Animekirk The fact that this is the first time ever that I saw JP laughed shows they must be very close buddies.
This debate was absolutely terrific. Heated and confrontational but ultimately still respectful.
Agreed
If Jordan had a worthy opponent it would be terrific.
He's talking about a 25 year old woman as if she's 12.
Exactly. She’s a 25 year old adult for heaven’s sake.
Exactly!
Don’t matter how old you are, who wants to be pilloried by anyone?
Ya that totally excuses dehumanizing her…
He just said "that's right" and offered no defensive argument to having tweeted.
I haven't seen yet where he talked about her as if 12 but he did say "obesity is NOT healthy".
I do NOT agree with him on everything, but he takes responsibility for his imperfections.
All he needed to say was that HE did not find her beautiful. what was wrong with his comment is that he was speaking on behalf of some objective truth about beauty! who tf does he think he is? beauty standards have evolved over time and place so that in other parts of the world she is considered extremely desirable and in this part of the world way back she was not ugly. after all beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. except JP's eyes seem to hold the world he's at the center of... apparently.
Wrong, and evidently you're overweight by the way you're defending the model. What Peterson was saying is that an overweight person (yes, male or female) doesn't belong on the cover of a sports/fitness magazine, especially when it's so obviously agenda driven.
@@jwil4905 I am not wrong. evidently you are American only you people are that stupid to ignore history and what happens to the rest of the world today... see how easy it is to assume dumbly about people.
@@jwil4905 No. He said "Not beautiful."
This guy is a very good friend for Peterson to have.
Twitter is a vehicle where people can hate people and lie anonamistly
This is the first real push back I’ve ever seen against Peterson. He needs this leftie as a friend, like you said. Very interesting conversation
I didn't feel much friendship going on here. Not because a friend can't call you out on you bs but the jabs are not out of concern but out of anger for the way he questions the leftist dogma. The only thing this friend wants is to shut him up from topics he finds sacred.
@@MASJYT where is JBP’s right wing friend? Why’s he always kissing leftist ass? Why pander to people destroying our society? How about talk to a white nationalist? Talk to some who recognizes white people are under attack.
Agreed
And, it’s lovely to see how Peterson is delicate w responding w what is a regardless very contentious scenario to ever contend these different points. And I can admire that
The problem is that Jordan made it personal by saying “not beautiful.” Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If he wanted to make a better point, he should have said, “Not healthy.” The he should have went after sports Illustrated for exploiting an unhealthy young woman for their personal financial gain.
I admire Jordan Peterson and find his discussions so interesting including this one but I am really stuck on why this model is referred to as 'obese'. Obviously she has extra weight, no dispute there but I don't see her as 'obese'.
She is technically obese as a unit of measurement. She might not look it but for a women at her high her BMI is too high.
I'm also stuck on why he chose to call her "not beautiful", if unhealthy, was what he meant.
I had to stop watching ... Dr Peterson doesn't get to answer any of the questions...
This guy talking all the time is incredibly annoying
That guy was so irritating I couldn’t wait to turn it off
Same . That blustering guy “interviewing” him is a bellicose wind bag .
True but Peterson usually has good rebuttals and sort of accepts the criticism like a good person in this case.
I do not agree with what Mr. Peterson says all the time, but he should be allowed to speak.
The answer, and I've been saying this for years, is...GET OFF SOCIAL MEDIA....DONE. EVERY (trivial) PROBLEM SOLVED.
Fantastic conversation. I love to see debate that doesn’t spiral into a screaming match!
This is the type of argument and directness you can only have with friends - you have to trust the other guy doesn't actually hate you to let someone lambast you like that. He made some great points, interesting to see JP has this type of friend.
Peterson's responses gave me some renewed respect for him. He was able to recognize weaknesses in his argument and admit it. This can be difficult to do especially publicly.
The fact JP has this conversation online shows how much of a legend and amazing human that he is....
Transparency >= Honesty >= Trustworthiness >= Respect >= Admiration >= Aspiration!
Amazing humans usually don’t refer to other humans as elephants.
Not in this instance his action was cruel and judgemental against a girl around his own daughters age, who is only guilty of taking an opportunity. It makes him come across and an incel sympathiser, focusing on a young women's body and commenting on health, none of us ever called him a drug addict! I think he was thoughtless here and I do hope the fact he has had so much of a voice and influence has not gone to his head now he has and recieved so much support respect and admiration for the majority of his views. Because he has always been not only smart but had heart, yet less so here... he became personal and involved were he need not have, to bring a young woman such unnecessary drama.
He behaved appallingly. It was ridiculous and immature and frankly insane of him to trash some random woman online and call her ugly for being overweight. A completely ridiculous thing to have done. Jordan Peterson has things to offer the world, but he is addicted to social media, too attached to his celebrity and it is undeniable that he has anger towards women. If you think that’s not true, imagine how this conversation would have gone if he had been targeted by the exact same arguments, word for word, but the interviewer were female.
The dude was annoying the way he spoke but he made fair points. And JP seemed to accept that.
"I was thinking it, but you said it!" (In the White Chicks Wayans brother voice)
I think he spoke in a more understandable and relatable way than Peterson. Sometimes Peterson seems as if he's trying too hard to sound like a scholar... Using far too complex language for his audience to understand on the first listen!
@@ltracy100 for me too.
@@AACBrit I am often accused of the same thing. However, it is rather a constant striving for brevity and clarity, both of which are achieved through technical terms (jargon). These terms exist for those very reasons. If you cannot follow Peterson read a few of the seminal books he suggests reading, so you can encode new concepts in your mind, and their interrelationships, at your own pace. Then you will understand that it has already been enormously simplified for you.
@@truthTramp I'm not saying I don't understand what he's trying to articulate. I'm saying *sometimes* his prose is less impactful to those who don't. The full breadth of the English language is criminally neglected, but knowing your audience (a large chunk of whom don't have the time nor the will to entertain flowery language) is an important factor. It's something that most professionals are trained to do - tailor the complexity of your advice to your target audience. He does that quite a bit with analogies and hypotheticals
This guy kept throwing low blows in his arguments so I couldn't take him seriously, just have a conversation with the man and stop trying to get a gotcha moment🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️.
He went his hardest on jordan. That's his friendship agreement to create the strongest argument possible against Jordan. So when he said (in paraphrase) you want to draw a line right. But you said "Sorry, not beautiful". That's not very clear of what jordan was meaning to say. But because he was upset with the article he made a joke about it instead of being careful and precise. For jordan, careful and precise are his two best virtues. He wasn't his best and even he admits to this point.
Look I love him but he's not perfect, he's our best.
@@itsmevsme7308 This has nothing to do with Jordan being perfect which he has pointed out that he isn't, it is the way he presented his arguments that I have issue with.
There is argument to be said against how Jordan Peterson presented his tweet and that I agree with despite understanding where he is coming from. The problem like I said, is that he kept throwing those low blow insults and that quickly turns off an audience that has an opposing view whereby of he stuck to the facts, it opens people up to your views.
No, this is how debate happens between smart friends. The guy is right. Let us do what Jordan wants us to do, to look at objective points. Listen to the last 2 mins and that is the point.
He can't bc he knows he's wrong. He's clearly mentally ill. Love JP!
the guy yelling at JP is someone you can't hold a conversation with, as he tries at every turn to dominate.
No, he's just frustrated because Jordan is not admitting what he said about the model is wrong. I don't think what he said about Ellen Page is wrong though.Also there are women athletes in Short Put and Discus Throw who look like that. In fact she's 100 times healthier than the bags of steroid that makes the front cover of Sports Illustrated constantly. And many people like that body type believe me we do. He doesn't have a good point here.
@@SrMway he’s not letting him talk. You
Can’t debate with this libtard
@@SrMway Most of those Shot Put and Discus Throw athletes have a lot of muscle under that fat as well, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do what they do so effectively with just fat alone. I prefer women with curves than those without (just on personal preference), but I'm not going to pretend that fat is healthy beyond a certain body %.
@@darkcrow42 Did you dig her body to see that there's no muscle? 🤣🤣
No one outside of USA and a handful of western countries suffers from this delusion that unless a woman look malnourished she cannot look sexy.
And I know for a fact that you dont care about promoting unhealthy lifestyle or something because you'll watch James bond order Vodka Martini shaken not stirred all day long.
So this is not about any of that. The world does not mean USA or the west so don't talk about beauty standards as if you decide for the rest of us what it should be.
You do not get it, jp is happy about the position of his friend
What, wait! When I was 25 I had a University degree, a full time job, an infant daughter and a slew of responsibilities. This model is 25, not 12. Stop offending young women by insinuating they do not have the wherewithal to think for themselves.
And girls volunteer to do porn. Its still exploitation.
@@DudeMan-xs3db if you are a legal adult who consents to do shoot pornography, you aren't exploited. Perhaps a bit naive, but not exploited. Women in the sex slave trade who are sexually assaulted on camera are exploited.
I agree with you.
As a 25 year old grown up woman she made the decision to present her body on a magazine for sportswear.
Well done, working as a waitress she earns same salary in a month or two.
Why did she chose this very unflattering bathing suit?
Don't know.
I think she is very well proportioned, don't like the skinny girls.
This bathingsuit does not do any good for her though.
Good for you. But most 25 year-olds don't have it all figured out yet.
This is so hard to watch when his friend interrupts him every few seconds just to not let Jordan finish. He doesnt prove his point with that
That's what it means to argue. Getting down to the point at hand very bluntly, no wiggle room.
Uh Jordan interrupts him constantly
Seems like JP was being talked down to the whole first half and the fact he wouldn't express shame made the dude angrier. At least it got more civil in the end.
Exactly what i was thinking, shouting JP down doesn't make your right.
It was an exercise. JP asked his friend to act like that and criticize him hard.
In some of his lectures and videos JP alludes to having a friend in the top 1% of disagreeableness that goes into companies and enjoys firing people that don't pull their weight where JP would struggle with it and refers to that friend as a great friend to have because he keeps JP in check. I'm pretty sure this was the guy he was talking about
@@Saturns_Return I think most socially healthy people have that one disagreeable but very honest friend.
Really? They're arguing.... it's totally civil.
First time I’ve seen someone own JP. Jordan really had no good defense for his very I’ll advised tweet, but I have lots of respect for his willingness to be schooled publicly.
It's about time JP has someone who can actually help him understand where he gets it wrong. It's a shame most people on here are still white knighting JP worse than girls on twitch or OF showing their cleavage. Stop looking up to the guy like he's a god and just focus on your own life. Grow some balls of your own instead of using his.
"If you over-esteem great men, the people will become powerless." -Tao Te Ching, Verse 3
That line about drinking moonshine and getting the dog pregnant tho 😂😂😂
It shows what a creep that guy is. Typical leftist.
Cheers to the guy in the middle. There but not there, literally and figuratively 😂
She chose to put herself out there to be judged by her looks....she just expected it to be positive. On a side not the guy on the right is soft as charmin
She didn't know what she was doing at 25...if people are seriously saying a western educated women isn't capable of making important life decisions at 25 then why are we bothering!!!.😡💕🇺🇸🇺🇦
@@caravanstuff2827 And if they don't, why can they vote? (25 yrs olds, not just women).
@@caravanstuff2827 -"She didn't know what she was doing at 25" - excellent point, and yet we now have a town in Los Angeles county trying to pass a law to allow 16 year olds to vote, while studies psychological, medical and otherwise have shown that the human brain is not fully matured until one is (on average) about 23 years old.
This guy is frustrating because he doesn’t listen and overtalks JP. So that in order for JP to either make a point or finish a point, he has to interrupt too. You can see JP struggling to listen and retort.
JP is one of those guys who I totally agree with on some things and totally disagree with on other things.
But I've noticed he's popping up everywhere. He seems to be on every possible media show. TH-cam might as well be renamed the JP show. I'm wondering if he's succumbing to the narcissism he often criticizes others for... such is his desire to let the world know his opinion about just about everything. And how right he thinks he thinks he is. The guy on the right, however, needs to shut up for a minute and let JP reply instead of talking over him in a sort of arrogant bullying fashion. That wasn't a debate, it was lecturing by the guy on the right. How can I tell if JP is talking crap or not if he can't explain his position?
brian richards. good point. But I don't thing he's succumbing to narcissism, he was narcissistic from the start.
He is one of the smartest thought leaders.
This dude is a weenie. SHE put herself out there, Jordan didn’t tell her to pose for the cover of SI.
Jordan is so polite. Being interrupted like this.
Overly polite. His "friend" is a bit of a blowhard.
@@jwil4905yeah, you’re not a real friend if you don’t agree with every action they make, of course.
I love the fact that the man challenging Peterson was once his student at Harvard. These videos are 99999x better than those "Peterson destroys feminists" videos. Please keep these snippets coming.
Smart guy. This is what I respect about JP. He is always open to being corrected.
The suggestion that perhaps you should think before posting anything, would you say it to their face, is an interesting idea. Perhaps you refrain from opining and let reality play itself out. In the case of the model, personally, I would be friends with her if we were compatible with each other and treat her with the dignity and respect everyone should have if they earn such treatment. However, for me, friendship is where it would stop as there would be no physical attraction motivation to pursue anything past friendship. As far as health and athleticism, again let it play out. In sports at almost any level, the lean, high cardio, individual will be best equipped to dominate any physical contest between them which would discredit the idea that you can be physically unhealthy and optimize the chances of winning a sports event against healthier peers. In time, if people are fair minded, will reject the idea and organizations like Sports Illustrated, to remain economically viable, will have to revert back to publishing characters that are physically credible to maintain their existence.
So he basically wants to suppress Jordan's freedom of speech.
Man this guy on the right loves the sound of his own voice.
Unlike the guy on the left? 😏
waste of time to watch.
Sports illustrated is an institution? What reality is that from. Sprots illustrated ceased to be anything truly respectable as a magazine representing people of sport, or swim suites, for that matter, a long time ago.
the magazine has become woke and is mostly a joke.
Great conversation. I'm wishing the "democrat friend" had a bit more command over his emotional response. His incessant shouting and dominating the conversation lost him credibility in my view. So cool you're friends! Love it!
Jealous much?
The best part of this disagreement is the laughter & ability to accept counterpoints & even personal digs without taking themselves so seriously which is rarely seen from JP. Laughing at ourselves is very disarming
This is such a refreshing view of JBP - Love him and this conversation!! Sometimes it's great to see your heroes lose an argument. I thought the friend was hilarious and JBP clearly thought so too
That guy is insanely jealous of Dr. Peterson. It’s scary.
I highly doubt that they’re close friends and you can see there when you watch the full context of the interview
Jealous? No they are two grown men in disagreement.
@@amoff2009 this person has never seen a healthy conversation.
Part 6:30 The guy semi arguing with Jordan says, "People pay u so many compliments so it's funny when I have to in the course to make the argument but it pains me so much"
"It's like when I beat u at most things, its just painful"
If this guy beat Jordan at most things then this guy's intellect would be well known. I don't know this guy at all, I stumbled onto this video only because Jordan Peterson is in it.
But anyway Jordan Peterson listens and then speaks but this guy constantly cuts in before Jordan gets a chance to finish what he is saying.
I think this guy has an underlying issue with Jordan. I think he is just low-key jealous of Jordans influence and success. In this debate he just wants the chance to oneup Jordan; this is an ego thing
Well, having listened to the whole thing, they joke, tease and poke at each other a lot. I believe it is just friendly banter. And after he gives him some very, very strong compliments, so strong that many people would balance them with something else, just to not sound too flattering. "You are of the great minds of the generation, you have a transformative intellect...", etc. I also think he raises some very valuable criticism that I wished Jordan not just laughed it off.
Your argument posits that the people with the greatest intellect are well known, which is obviously false. The people with the greatest intellect are probably scientists and engineers and you'll never know their names. People like Joe Rogan are very well known but I wouldn't put him in the greatest intellect category (I'm sure he would agree).
So butthurt on behalf of jordan lol. They are friends, he doesnt need you to defend his pride lol
@@jeremymcpherson007 No I said if this guy beats Jordan at most things then he's intellect would be well known. You're missing the points entirely. The first point is I don't think he beats Jordan at most things (that itself is a patronising statement to claim beating someone at most things) and the main point is that this guy seems to have a problem with Jordan. He is very impatient and doesn't listen in order to understand what the other person is saying, he listens just so that he can speak again (doesn't try to understand, just wants to win). He was very patronising as in he was displaying a pattern of saying negative things about Jordan in his argument such as it pains him to give Jordan a compliment or that he claims to beat Jordan at most things or that Jordan says things sometimes that he would consider stupid. Its like he has an underlying problem with him; maybe Jelousy or envy. The point is he's revealing negativity traits in his character.
@@vegarguleng1748 OK I think the whole interview debate thing was like an hour long, I listened to this section but haven't watched the entire long debate. In this section at least the guy is quick to speak and does appear to be patronising but in a jokey way (patronising nonetheless). Jordan wasn't being patronising, he was just making points to validate his argument only. The other guy, however, was sliding personal opinions about Jordan that suggest he maybe has an underlying issue with Jordan; jelousy or envy maybe. Jordan I think has just learned to take criticism or patronising remarks because he deals with it all the time. I do also get the sense that they are friends but I feel low-key this guy is jealous or envious of Jordan.
1 min 37 seconds and I already can't stand whoever this loud mouth is.
Good God, all that lefty guy could do was talk about emotions. Sitting there smugly talking over the top of Jordan Peterson. Lefty friend continually denigrates the model as some kind of Victim. Decent behavior was the only victim during this so called debate.
Jordan Peterson, next time debate someone who will use facts instead of emotions.
I score this a 3/10
Thing is the model--she was HEAVILY photoshopped--so even "they" wanted to alter HER true image to, uh...what, then?
Damn that Democrat guy really laid the smack down on JP
Yeah, not so much.
Not a lot of "debate" there. Peterson wasn't given space to explain his position in any meaningful way.
At 25, I was married, had a baby, and finishing my surgical residency. This 25 year old model should realize that she’s not skinny and that SI is using her to be controversial (pushing “body positivity”) and that a lot of people won’t appreciate the fact that she’s plus sized. You shouldn’t make a decision like that then complain and cry over the fact that you’re being called bad names, etc. If haters bother you then you’re in the wrong business. Everyone in that industry gets bullied, regardless of how you look. It’s brutal and not something I would ever want to do.
BS Did you start medical school at 16? Your an outlier or a liar.
@@bobbobuckley54 I know when I was in school.
@@katherineseymour6239 Are you a surgeon or a surgical nurse?
We don't expect enough from young people today. Yes, 25 is young but at 25 myself and my friends had degrees, were working in respectable jobs and knew our worth was much more than our body. We respected ourself too much to focus on something we were simply born with, not something we accomplished
He does not claim the moral higher, he is able to accept when his wrong, adjust his thought process and still find laughter.
The other guy though...
He should apologise.
The other guy was right and JP accepted it.
I can't take this debate seriously cause Jordan is the only person whose really debating. That other dude is too busy with the low blow jokes. 🙄 🙄
I am so glad Jordan is capable of listing to and accepting criticism. I don't want him going down some Alex Jones rabbit hole.
Your rude behavior is never your fault, is it, Dr. Peterson?
If you’re on the cover of Sports Illustrated, you’re fair game. JP was dead right. He shouldn’t be apologetic in the least.
Celebrating being fat to make others feel comfortable about eating themselves into an early grave is not good for the world. PERIOD.
This lady is beautiful. JP is body shaming.
Was this a debate or did the one dude just want to hear himself talk for 10 minutes straight?
Men always defending women, verbally and physically like they are incapable of doing so.
A man always has to step in to another man
now I see how JP exercises his pacience...geesh!
How about an intro explaining wha this is about?
That was a garbage watch. Debates aren’t about winning by just talking the most, JP needs to avoid this guy
Ahh now I can see JPs agreeableness that he always talks about. We tend to attract self glorifying friends like these at our expense.. I’ve been tryna set boundaries with these types. 😂
This guy is referred to as this guy because his point is lame
Being overweight can lead to plenty comorbidities, it IS unhealthy. Similar as anorexia/bolemia. Why do we have to catapult from one extreme to another?
Have you taken her blood or BMI or anything that would actually substantiate a claim of bad health???? You can say she isn’t pretty in your opinion without sounding like a moron. But pretty doesn’t mean healthy ask any trained physician.
This guy is pissed with Jordan's influence !
I’m really happy they talked about this. The Bible says to tell the truth in love. You can tell the truth without destroying a person’s self worth. I felt like his diatribe on the sports illustrated magazine was horrible, and I love JP. And you bring up your daughter who is not plus size and is a product of you to back you up on it is very problematic and did not hold up at all. I also don’t understand what he means by “beauty” perhaps it’s not a health standard but why is she not beautiful? What makes her any less beautiful than the anorexic models that have been on the cover? No one ever talks about women who are extremely skinny, THATS NOT HEALTHY EITHER, they die from that as well. But anyway, this was a great video and what the Bible calls iron sharpening iron.
Love JP, but I've never seen such an artful intellectual roasting
Then you never watched Peterson discuss and debate with Matt Dillahunty, and Sam Harris. Both dog walked him up and down the stage.
25 year old women are mature. And know everything they will ever know. The world says so
The guy is brutal but I don’t think he is disrespectful. That’s a good friend right there.
No, he's just wrong.
I’ve never seen jp get got like that. They seem like good buddies
FIRST time I saw JP laughed so heartily. He is a serious person so to witness him laugh like hard is refreshing. They must have a close relationship like kindred spirits.
It astounded me that he said this girl wasn't pretty but thinks his wife is???
I think that was a wonderfully articulated and artful tweet that expressed the reality and the Truth of the situation. It’s a shame that most are offended by it and unfortunately can’t appreciate the honest message behind it.
Someone should pick out some feature of yours that they don't like and go public with it and shame the shit out of you. Then maybe you'd understand how wrong that was of JP.
I think the tweet made sense to those of us who are in on the conversation, and seemed mean to people who are not part of the conversation. Most people I know don't know who Jordan Peterson is and have never heard of fat studies or fat acceptance. I think the inartfulness (It's a word, or at least I'm pretending it is) of the tweet was that it was directed at people in the conversation, but it went to EVERYONE, and that created the problem.
Jordan is so relaxed. The other guy is all over the place.
Did we watch the same video?
@@SilVia-hs2kb Yep
I don't think anyone can put themselves out there on Twitter for reactions, and be upset they get reactions. Good, bad, or ugly.
Agreed. People only want the truth if it agrees with their own thoughts/opinions/narcissism.
What’s happening is, people are pretending not to understand the context in order to get offended. Everyone knows including the poor 25 year old girl who agreed to accept a healthy paycheck and publicity that obese models are something that is being publicly debated.
Maybe let Peterson finish his sentence for once. I love to hear debates but when once side constantly tries to shut up the other and doesn't shut up for a second and listen, it's frustrating as hell.
No one should humiliate a 25 year old like that. And who is Petersen to say she's not beautiful
"And who is Petersen to say she's not beautiful"
Someone who isn't blind.
Definitely a great back and forth between friends lol. I can see where Peterson's friend is coming from - but the reality is Peterson was just trying to speak out against the virtue signaling marketing. And not the best, as he admits
I listen to Jordan Peterson and agree on most things he says but he definitely got this wrong.
He got it wrong from a social, medical and ethical point of view.
everyone in the comments are fanboys of jp unable to hear any criticism of him. Theyre friends and this is a good faith debate and somehow you're so offended by it.
Like its so crazy 😅 and they say they aren't in a cult
I've never seen a girl play a sport that was that fat and un-athletic. So i guess at 6'6" i can be on the cover of a short guy magazine?? To diversify it???
Moral of the story, Jordan Peterson hates any women who is confident and unconcerned with his opinion of them. A woman shouldn’t be able to love herself and accept herself unless Jordan Peterson says so and deems her body type not too skinny but not too fat…only perfect bodies deserve respect 😂 this guy is a narcissist. Textbook.
Could homeboy not immediately interrupt every time JP started to respond? He seems to be listening only to respond - and that’s if you can actually call it listening. More like, pausing to allow enough response to further his points, and to not make it a monologue.
That was great. I think too many people find heroes nowadays and align themselves with their idol like jordan Peterson, trump, Obama or even celebrities. I watch jordan Peterson all the time but it was so beneath him having to tweet that. I’m glad someone showed him how silly it was.
Trying to make obese people feel better about themselves is commendable on one hand but also dangerous to their health on the other.
Well then slag off all models, the emancipated ones, druggies, the steroid pumpers, give them all a good rattling, don’t send the twitter shitheads on one girl because you don’t find her attractive. Jordan needed that talking to and he knew it.
IMO it’s one thing point point out a potential problem, or disagree on something, but quite another to go after an individual, and when there is blowback, to double down. JP can count himself lucky Page didn’t sue him for harassment.
British mathematician and philosopher W K Clifford wrote "it can be morally wrong to hold certain beliefs if we lack good reason for them"
This isn't a debate. This is some guy saying how JP was one-sided, when he's one-sided himself in only focusing on JP, and plus he can't listen as well as JP does. It's like that scene in the movie of that guy getting off the elevator, "I don't think about you at all."
There were a lot of personal attacks made to try to win the conversation. Totally disgusting.
JP let him focus this on the girl. His quibble was with SI, not the girl. He can acknowledge the impact on the girl, but he shouldn’t have let him frame the argument. Also, why is the host there at all?
Guys watch the full interview and you will understand why JP's behaves like that.