00:00 - 00:38 Introduction 00:38 - 02:14 Sponsorship 02:14 - 03:43 START OF INTERVIEW - Does Jonathan ever get tired of talking about symbolism? 03:43 - 07:13 What is the fundamental distinction between how we perceive reality today compared to ancient humans? 07:13 - 12:52 How does a model of abstraction differ from a symbol? 12:52 - 16:47 Are modern people less mythologically minded than our ancestors? 16:47 - 18:37 The Queen’s death and our ever-present underlying symbolic reality 18:37 - 22:26 Which came first, Jonathan’s Christianity or his symbolic fascination? 22:26 - 24:35 What is the meta-pattern (The pattern of patterns)? 24:35 - 26:52 How present is the meta pattern in every other pattern we encounter? 26:52 - 43:18 The biggest problem with psychedelics 43:18 - 52:06 What is the relationship between consciousness and reality? 52:06 - 54:04 The Nihilism of “Everything is just an illusion” 54:04 - 58:03 How to understand the Nihilism “trick” 58:03 - 01:06:28 Is thinking symbolically a skill to be developed or a default state? (the alienation of thinking symbolically) God bless 🕊
"I hear people say "Everything's just an illusion", but that's not helpful, where do we go from there?" "Just immediately slap someone in the face when they say that. And then smile." Hahahaha Jonathan both making a brilliant point and being hilarious as always.
Amazing interview! Jonathan is a pearl of wisdom. I feel very grateful for the opportunity to listen to his message. He’s helped me rediscover the enchantment in the world.
When Jonathan was talking about how you would tell a story about your life I think he was also meaning that our minds focus attention on certain events/actions. We don’t list out every arbitrary event (1. I moved my left foot 2. I moved my right foot 3. I looked at the clock etc) you naturally pull out the most important details. It’s something we do so naturally that we don’t even notice our brains discarding the massive amounts of detail of our experience.
I’ve never understood the “Everything is an illusion” crowd. They want to explain reality without God, but in doing so still allude to an infinitely powerful entity capable of creating an illusion so realistic it’s indistinguishable from reality. In the end, they believe in a god, but it’s a malicious and deceptive god.
I'm glad Jon brought up the description as explanation phenomenon. Example: Mental activity and the experience thereof is often 'explained' as neurochemicals interacting amongst themselves via electrical stimulation. That's a description of a process, not an explanation. And yes, it is all over the place. Think K - 12 and 'higher education'. And of course, Neil Degrasse Tyson. 😃👍🌿
Another aspect to keep in mind when discussing ancient vs. modern views of reality is that our very experience of life is different. People used to see giant angels appear by the altar during the transubstantiation of the Latin Mass. And religious practices all over the world BEFORE the incarnation were based on interacting with BEINGS who existed (and still exist) and who were more directly experienced than they are now. That's what is meant by a creation that is alive versus a creation that is dead matter. I think we're swinging back towards the realization that the creation is alive and that it is alive with beings from the macrocosmic to the microcosmic; beings who are above us, with us, and below us. Ancient symbolism was not made up in an attempt to understand the world, rather it is an attempt to depict actual spiritual experience. For example, if someone had a vision of a spiritual being who presented itself as feminine, with a golden aura, wearing a full-length garment that was deep blue, that had the starry firmament WITHIN the garment, that is the stars were alive IN the garment, then an artist might do his/her best to re-create that by painting the garment a deep blue and placing stars on the garment. But those stars are not merely a symbol of what the figure is about, although they are that, but they are as accurate a depiction of how that being presented herself to humans. That is what she looks like.
Such well articulated expressions of the profundity of the mundane I couldn't quite explain or understand myself. Glad to find you through Jonathan, Dylan! P. S. Just punny: Don't be as Nihil as Degrasse Ty, Sons!
I've always had a huge issue with the way people try to marry psychadelics to Christianity or spirituality, but I never could state it very eloquently. Jonathan, on the other hand, knocks it out of the park at 34:07. Incredibily well said
When I hear about psychedelics and Elusinian mysteries these days, I think of St Paul’s words in Colossians 2: “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ…Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not sholding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.” Spiritual knowledge does not come from experiences through psychedelics (the “elemental spirits” or στοιχεία you might experience say, on a mushroom trip), nor does it come through harsh ascetic practice, although fasting and discipline are good. Spiritual knowledge comes from God, who is revealed in Christ and who we partake in through the Word and through the Eucharist and Baptism.
Thanks man. You did a great job in this conversation and it was one of Jonathan's better ones. Plenty of takeaways. Plenty of clarity this gave me. It comforts me to know another person like me is out there, peering up the same mountain
I feel the same way. Part of the joy of the journey is to walk it together, and I feel something good when I see in Jonathan or in Jordan Peterson or in your comment this desire to climb this mountain. Makes it easier to climb myself. I hope that someday it will feel like all our families and friends and the wider culture climbs it. But for now it is comfort enough to see the seeds of what is to come. Blessings to you and all you fellow strangers on the internet, may you find joy and serve your neighbors (and pray for me that I can too)
In regards to visions, ken Wilber suggests we have episodes of visions/enlightenment, (episodes that we fall into, but cant recreate) . He says that we still need the spiritual development (stage by stage) to carry us, the episodes of vision cant really take us anywhere.
At 6:20 Jonathan says how the solar system is an abstraction, because it cannot be experienced (phenomenologically). This reminds me how the American logician C.S. Peirce divides scientific observations into two categories: 1) Phenomenological observations (our everyday experience, which is the object of inquiry for philosophy) 2) Special observations (the use of observational instruments like telescopes, through which the observations in sciences like physics or chemistry are done) Jonathan points at the common mistake of viewing special observations as more real than the phenomenological observations. This is putting the cart before the horse. Namely, even the observation through telescope is embedded in the phenomenological observation. Therefore, the phenomenological observation is primary. There is no way to escape from this fact. That is why we must have a robust understanding of our everyday (phenomenological) experience and perception of the world.
That logician u mentioned did a really good job dividing those truths! I had never considered how the embeddedness of scientific truth makes it primary.
12:45 right and then how are we selecting out of the hundreds of events and details that took place at each of those stages of life which of those is relevant in defining who we are today
37:37 quick thought here. Do pastors and preachers not do the same thing? I have been a minister so I understand the urge to embody a type of voice and presentation expected of me. And I have seen the difference of the pastoral/preacher voice and language compared with the manner of real life. It is common in any idealized leadership role.
The triumph of modernist painting is that it returned , " the canvas" to the integrity of the 2dimentional . In other words what painting is. Modernism at the turn of the last century rescued it from the alienism and illusion of the 3 dimensional . Materialism continually interfears with this integrity. This is also a problem with iconography now but not on the so called level of the picture plane but metaphically.
"Promestheus, you have suffered enough. Christ has died for all your iniquities, your debt has been paid, time to climb the Spiral Staircase . Mankind rejoices. The cycle is broken. .. " -Hercules
I don’t know how to begin talking to my friends about any of it. I’ve spent a lot of time focusing on the absurdities of Christianity in their isolated lanes but JP has challenged and changed a lot of how I thought. Now I don’t know how to change tune.
john vervaeke has good material as a gateway drug to symbolic world, then move into jordan peterson and carl jung etc. then J and M Pageau's work. If you go direct to orthodox, it might be too much in one hit.
a lot of ppl work around by not mentioning the G word, or the J word, as it spooks people. First get comfortable throwing in some symbolic, dare I say, religious or spiritual language.
6:37 "There is nothing wrong with abstract models". Abstract is marginal to concrete (place where things are together, where unity of heaven and earth happens) and if people allow abstract to become more central and take place of concrete then they participate in the same pattern that Jonathan describes (marginal becoming central).
I would just say that something is more than the sum of its parts, and then explore some examples. The splashes of paint which result in the painting contribute to a higher reality which we experience as art. Focus on what we actually experience and not on just the components alone.
@@andrewx3y8c Hi Andrew, I think your example is a part of it, but within the context of the conversation we meant reductive speech like: a statue is just a bunch of rocks; a human is just a bag of chemicals, the universe is just a bunch of atoms, etc. Reducing things down to their components. Of course, something is much more than just the sum of its parts. Thank you for your comment! Feel free to email me dylan@dylangous.com if you have any questions.
@@pothecary Ah, I see! I was about 3/4 in when I wrote the comment but in the Nihilism part now and seeing what you're talking about. Thanks for the response and email!
I understan symbolism even i dont get it all. There is important value in it as Truth value. Its prove, its like mathematics and physics to understand things in some level. But it makes me wonder should actual Life be in a way its greatest enemy ? :) You cant run away the fact that you cant encapsulate Spirit. Map is not the territory. Take this verse as reverense point : Joh. 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And _ye will _*_not come to me_*_ , that ye might have _*_life_* This means that you actually can ( and need ) to get real relationship with God as people have with each other. And to enter in to it you actually need to loose your reasoning as you cant reason with God. Otherwice you are in controlling position with Him. and : Joh. 17:3 And _this is life eternal, that they might _*_know_*_ thee_ the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Joh. 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus is Life Himself. And also the Truth. e.g fruits of the spirit are things that is in Him and so is needed to have a Life, he wants to grow them in us. ( longsuffering and patiense and maybe all of them needs a bit pain to gain )
also Tit. 3:5 ..by the washing of regeneration, and *renewing* of the Holy Ghost; This means you when you have given HolySpirit its just starting point and He starts to make you ready for The Bridegroom
@@pothecary Wow, that's awesome, I'll check out some more of your work. Would be interested to know how you made this interview happen. I don't know many South Africans interested in JP
Jonathan, we are starting to understand what you are saying. Personally, I see the religion of the future being and amalgam of Christian Daoist Indigenous traditions. As far as psychedelics are concerned, the only way that they can work is to use them as a sacrament to be used only at major milestones like adolescence/coming of age and such . If they become habitual then you have Prometheus again. If you take them too frequently they become a crutch instead of key to a hidden door. And even when the door is open, you have to walk through it on your own. Mushrooms and such will not take you to heaven and keep you there. You have to have a daily practice that opens the door so that you can enter the kingdom of heaven minute by minute and day by day. To me this is what theosis is.
Interesting comment. I’ve wondered where religion will go being able to observe it become less and less dogmatic. I too think something like a symbolic experience with Christianity and Taoism might be right. But I am wondering when more Christian leaders will feel free to not have to speak with such allegiance to a Christian faith, maintaining an appreciation of it without it being THE way and THE path to meaning.
@@carolm753 In my mind, this will happen when people open their interpretation of John 14:6. Personally, I like Contemplative Christianity and authors/speakers like Richard Rohr, and Marshall Davis for this. Ultimately, I believe that there must be a religion/spirituality that is true for all of Creation and is available to all of us all the time, in other words truly universal and perennial. I like William Douglas Horden for for this. His book The Five Emanations is a good place to start.
I don’t know. Isn’t there something dishonest about Pageaus longing for the “symbolic perspective“ ? What if the divine has been in a constant recession from the world since it began and in that case aren’t Being , immediacy , meaning all things to be mourned ? Maybe god is silent because he cares less than he used to, maybe there’s nothing to return to
"You cannot experience the solar system?" Is Johnathan seriously suggesting he cannot see & feel the reality of the sun? His thinking is pure make believe that you see as his eyes turn upwards in a physical sign of creative thinking.
No he is not suggesting that he doesn't experience the sun, he is saying that he experiences the sun and not the solar system. The category of 'solar system' is an abstraction, it is not an experiental category. You don't experience anything at the level of the solar system - what you experience is the concrete reality of the sun rising in the morning, giving light and warmth, and going down in the evening. There is nothing make belief about this, it is simply the contention that experiental categories are better suited to describe our experience of reality, than are scientific, abstract ones.
A come back to my comment could be something like: 'You do experience the solar system through the experience of the sun or the moon, as the sun & moon are part of the solar system. The sun & moon are smaller means by which we perceive the larger category that is the solar system'. And while that is true in some sense, the question arises, why do you feel the need to abstract the actual, direct experience of perceiving the moon or the sun, into some larger category to which you have no direct access to? The only reason we talk about the 'solar system' as a category is because of abstract knowledge we have - it is completely removed from our direct experience. A person looking into the sky doesn't perceive things at the level of 'solar system' - he perceives a very bright light governing the day, and a lesser light governing the night (like is said in the bible). The point is not that the abstract knowledge is wrong, it's that seeing the abstract knowledge as primary and more important than our direct experience, is why modern Man feels so alienated.
Well guys, all l tell you is that the appearance of the sun rising in the morning is optical illusion caused by the rotation of mother earth. Johnathan gave his flat earth confusion in the lecture he gave in LA l think. The one Jordan Peterson put up on his channel.
00:00 - 00:38 Introduction
00:38 - 02:14 Sponsorship
02:14 - 03:43 START OF INTERVIEW - Does Jonathan ever get tired of talking about symbolism?
03:43 - 07:13 What is the fundamental distinction between how we perceive reality today compared to ancient humans?
07:13 - 12:52 How does a model of abstraction differ from a symbol?
12:52 - 16:47 Are modern people less mythologically minded than our ancestors?
16:47 - 18:37 The Queen’s death and our ever-present underlying symbolic reality
18:37 - 22:26 Which came first, Jonathan’s Christianity or his symbolic fascination?
22:26 - 24:35 What is the meta-pattern (The pattern of patterns)?
24:35 - 26:52 How present is the meta pattern in every other pattern we encounter?
26:52 - 43:18 The biggest problem with psychedelics
43:18 - 52:06 What is the relationship between consciousness and reality?
52:06 - 54:04 The Nihilism of “Everything is just an illusion”
54:04 - 58:03 How to understand the Nihilism “trick”
58:03 - 01:06:28 Is thinking symbolically a skill to be developed or a default state? (the alienation of thinking symbolically)
God bless 🕊
Thank you.
One of the best interviews given by Jonathan.
Having Jonathan Pageau on your channel earns a sub from me!
Ha ha!! Me too! It’s how I subscribed to More Christ.
Touché! Me too! 😂
That’s how I found it too
And me!
Me too! 😁
"I hear people say "Everything's just an illusion", but that's not helpful, where do we go from there?"
"Just immediately slap someone in the face when they say that. And then smile."
Hahahaha Jonathan both making a brilliant point and being hilarious as always.
Agreed! I had a good chuckle when Jonathan said that. 😂
Pageau is very gracious for engaging with hosts who are discovering the symbolic world.
Amazing interview! Jonathan is a pearl of wisdom. I feel very grateful for the opportunity to listen to his message. He’s helped me rediscover the enchantment in the world.
When Jonathan was talking about how you would tell a story about your life I think he was also meaning that our minds focus attention on certain events/actions. We don’t list out every arbitrary event (1. I moved my left foot 2. I moved my right foot 3. I looked at the clock etc) you naturally pull out the most important details. It’s something we do so naturally that we don’t even notice our brains discarding the massive amounts of detail of our experience.
I’ve never understood the “Everything is an illusion” crowd. They want to explain reality without God, but in doing so still allude to an infinitely powerful entity capable of creating an illusion so realistic it’s indistinguishable from reality.
In the end, they believe in a god, but it’s a malicious and deceptive god.
I'm glad Jon brought up the description as explanation phenomenon.
Example: Mental activity and the experience thereof is often 'explained' as neurochemicals interacting amongst themselves via electrical stimulation.
That's a description of a process, not an explanation.
And yes, it is all over the place.
Think K - 12 and 'higher education'.
And of course, Neil Degrasse Tyson.
😃👍🌿
@@Joe-sg9ll Indeed, the table is Set.
Another aspect to keep in mind when discussing ancient vs. modern views of reality is that our very experience of life is different. People used to see giant angels appear by the altar during the transubstantiation of the Latin Mass. And religious practices all over the world BEFORE the incarnation were based on interacting with BEINGS who existed (and still exist) and who were more directly experienced than they are now. That's what is meant by a creation that is alive versus a creation that is dead matter. I think we're swinging back towards the realization that the creation is alive and that it is alive with beings from the macrocosmic to the microcosmic; beings who are above us, with us, and below us. Ancient symbolism was not made up in an attempt to understand the world, rather it is an attempt to depict actual spiritual experience.
For example, if someone had a vision of a spiritual being who presented itself as feminine, with a golden aura, wearing a full-length garment that was deep blue, that had the starry firmament WITHIN the garment, that is the stars were alive IN the garment, then an artist might do his/her best to re-create that by painting the garment a deep blue and placing stars on the garment. But those stars are not merely a symbol of what the figure is about, although they are that, but they are as accurate a depiction of how that being presented herself to humans. That is what she looks like.
..." alienated space..." , great observation ! That IS the modern mind .
41:20 Such a good point on veneration of drugs. It's a return of idol worship where lifeless stones were held as gods. Great discussion
Beautiful conversation! I like it Jonathan and Existential delight!
Such well articulated expressions of the profundity of the mundane I couldn't quite explain or understand myself. Glad to find you through Jonathan, Dylan!
P. S. Just punny: Don't be as Nihil as Degrasse Ty, Sons!
Thanks for the kind words, P.H! Welcome aboard!
"The Matter with Things" Ian McGilchrist.
This is the most fascinating stuff that I've heard in my life, it's so crazy but so simple. I need to learn as much as I can.
I've always had a huge issue with the way people try to marry psychadelics to Christianity or spirituality, but I never could state it very eloquently. Jonathan, on the other hand, knocks it out of the park at 34:07. Incredibily well said
When I hear about psychedelics and Elusinian mysteries these days, I think of St Paul’s words in Colossians 2:
“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ…Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not sholding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.”
Spiritual knowledge does not come from experiences through psychedelics (the “elemental spirits” or στοιχεία you might experience say, on a mushroom trip), nor does it come through harsh ascetic practice, although fasting and discipline are good. Spiritual knowledge comes from God, who is revealed in Christ and who we partake in through the Word and through the Eucharist and Baptism.
Fascinating
ironically telling me i can skip the ad, made me want to watch the ad to support you.
Fascinating, great interview and a really informative discussion - plenty of food for thought!
Thank you brother 🙏
Great interview brother
Thank you brother! 🙏🙏🙏
I was drowning in that water analogy. Incredible
Thanks man. You did a great job in this conversation and it was one of Jonathan's better ones.
Plenty of takeaways. Plenty of clarity this gave me.
It comforts me to know another person like me is out there, peering up the same mountain
I feel the same way. Part of the joy of the journey is to walk it together, and I feel something good when I see in Jonathan or in Jordan Peterson or in your comment this desire to climb this mountain. Makes it easier to climb myself. I hope that someday it will feel like all our families and friends and the wider culture climbs it. But for now it is comfort enough to see the seeds of what is to come.
Blessings to you and all you fellow strangers on the internet, may you find joy and serve your neighbors (and pray for me that I can too)
@@simonahrendt9069 very sweet. Thanks man.
Thanks
In regards to visions, ken Wilber suggests we have episodes of visions/enlightenment, (episodes that we fall into, but cant recreate) . He says that we still need the spiritual development (stage by stage) to carry us, the episodes of vision cant really take us anywhere.
At 6:20 Jonathan says how the solar system is an abstraction, because it cannot be experienced (phenomenologically).
This reminds me how the American logician C.S. Peirce divides scientific observations into two categories:
1) Phenomenological observations (our everyday experience, which is the object of inquiry for philosophy)
2) Special observations (the use of observational instruments like telescopes, through which the observations in sciences like physics or chemistry are done)
Jonathan points at the common mistake of viewing special observations as more real than the phenomenological observations. This is putting the cart before the horse. Namely, even the observation through telescope is embedded in the phenomenological observation. Therefore, the phenomenological observation is primary. There is no way to escape from this fact. That is why we must have a robust understanding of our everyday (phenomenological) experience and perception of the world.
Brilliantly said! Thank you for sharing that distinction.
That logician u mentioned did a really good job dividing those truths! I had never considered how the embeddedness of scientific truth makes it primary.
well said. The earth _is_ flat.
Great Interview, thank you!
12:45 right and then how are we selecting out of the hundreds of events and details that took place at each of those stages of life which of those is relevant in defining who we are today
I love Jonathan! And I love McKenna. The point where they meet is quite scary!
The intro gives me the vibe of that wily wonka song "pure imagination"
37:37 quick thought here. Do pastors and preachers not do the same thing? I have been a minister so I understand the urge to embody a type of voice and presentation expected of me. And I have seen the difference of the pastoral/preacher voice and language compared with the manner of real life. It is common in any idealized leadership role.
💜
Fr Seraphim Rose - Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future
What is he talking about when he says you can tell from the Rockefeller center that some modernists knew what they were doing?
The triumph of modernist painting is that it returned , " the canvas" to the integrity of the 2dimentional . In other words what painting is. Modernism at the turn of the last century rescued it from the alienism and illusion of the 3 dimensional . Materialism continually interfears with this integrity. This is also a problem with iconography now but not on the so called level of the picture plane but metaphically.
I tried to find Existential Delight on Apple podcast and Spotify but it looks like it’s not updated with everything that’s on the TH-cam channel.
Hi Kane, I'm currently in the process of updating everything. I'll send a community post once everything has been uploaded. Thanks for your interest 🙏
"Promestheus, you have suffered enough. Christ has died for all your iniquities, your debt has been paid, time to climb the Spiral Staircase . Mankind rejoices. The cycle is broken. .. " -Hercules
"You're going to die if you don't live in The Symbolic World™"
- _Jonathan Pageau_
I don’t know how to begin talking to my friends about any of it. I’ve spent a lot of time focusing on the absurdities of Christianity in their isolated lanes but JP has challenged and changed a lot of how I thought. Now I don’t know how to change tune.
Go to church! Our boy is right about Eastern Orthodoxy. It rules.
john vervaeke has good material as a gateway drug to symbolic world, then move into jordan peterson and carl jung etc. then J and M Pageau's work.
If you go direct to orthodox, it might be too much in one hit.
a lot of ppl work around by not mentioning the G word, or the J word, as it spooks people. First get comfortable throwing in some symbolic, dare I say, religious or spiritual language.
14 thousand other nerds out there like me
On the bit about the illusions, isn't this the mystery of the Sacraments? They convert the absurd into the meaningful.
6:37 "There is nothing wrong with abstract models".
Abstract is marginal to concrete (place where things are together, where unity of heaven and earth happens) and if people allow abstract to become more central and take place of concrete then they participate in the same pattern that Jonathan describes (marginal becoming central).
Abstract is marginal to the symbolic.
Symbolism happens. Abstract is a convention but never happens, not experienced phenomenological.
perhaps the best ways to bootstrap symbolic thinking,
are to live in nature, or close to nature, for at least a while,
How do you respond to someone who does the reductive trick?
I would just say that something is more than the sum of its parts, and then explore some examples. The splashes of paint which result in the painting contribute to a higher reality which we experience as art. Focus on what we actually experience and not on just the components alone.
Reductive trick being like taking one element of Christianity and pointing out the absurdity of it? e.g. “Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice”
@@andrewx3y8c Hi Andrew, I think your example is a part of it, but within the context of the conversation we meant reductive speech like: a statue is just a bunch of rocks; a human is just a bag of chemicals, the universe is just a bunch of atoms, etc. Reducing things down to their components.
Of course, something is much more than just the sum of its parts.
Thank you for your comment! Feel free to email me dylan@dylangous.com if you have any questions.
@@pothecary Ah, I see! I was about 3/4 in when I wrote the comment but in the Nihilism part now and seeing what you're talking about. Thanks for the response and email!
Will this convo be in audio podcast form?
Hi Joshua, yes! The audio version will be available on Spotify this week. I will follow up on this comment with a link when it is ready.
🌚☄️❤️💫
35:04 every alcoholic.. I’ll take two please. Smh
You a south african brother?
Hi Jean, yes I am. 🇿🇦
@@pothecary so refreshing to hear our people having the right conversations. Well done, you’ve earned a like and a sub from me
I understan symbolism even i dont get it all. There is important value in it as Truth value. Its prove, its like mathematics and physics to understand things in some level. But it makes me wonder should actual Life be in a way its greatest enemy ? :)
You cant run away the fact that you cant encapsulate Spirit. Map is not the territory.
Take this verse as reverense point : Joh. 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And _ye will _*_not come to me_*_ , that ye might have _*_life_*
This means that you actually can ( and need ) to get real relationship with God as people have with each other.
And to enter in to it you actually need to loose your reasoning as you cant reason with God. Otherwice you are in controlling position with Him.
and :
Joh. 17:3 And _this is life eternal, that they might _*_know_*_ thee_ the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh. 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus is Life Himself. And also the Truth.
e.g fruits of the spirit are things that is in Him and so is needed to have a Life, he wants to grow them in us. ( longsuffering and patiense and maybe all of them needs a bit pain to gain )
also Tit. 3:5 ..by the washing of regeneration, and *renewing* of the Holy Ghost;
This means you when you have given HolySpirit its just starting point and He starts to make you ready for The Bridegroom
Excellence!
Are you South African?
I am, yes🇿🇦
@@pothecary Wow, that's awesome, I'll check out some more of your work. Would be interested to know how you made this interview happen. I don't know many South Africans interested in JP
Jonathan, we are starting to understand what you are saying. Personally, I see the religion of the future being and amalgam of Christian Daoist Indigenous traditions. As far as psychedelics are concerned, the only way that they can work is to use them as a sacrament to be used only at major milestones like adolescence/coming of age and such . If they become habitual then you have Prometheus again. If you take them too frequently they become a crutch instead of key to a hidden door. And even when the door is open, you have to walk through it on your own. Mushrooms and such will not take you to heaven and keep you there. You have to have a daily practice that opens the door so that you can enter the kingdom of heaven minute by minute and day by day. To me this is what theosis is.
The coming religion is that of the Antichrist, the False Prophet and the Beast.
Interesting comment. I’ve wondered where religion will go being able to observe it become less and less dogmatic. I too think something like a symbolic experience with Christianity and Taoism might be right. But I am wondering when more Christian leaders will feel free to not have to speak with such allegiance to a Christian faith, maintaining an appreciation of it without it being THE way and THE path to meaning.
@@carolm753 In my mind, this will happen when people open their interpretation of John 14:6. Personally, I like Contemplative Christianity and authors/speakers like Richard Rohr, and Marshall Davis for this. Ultimately, I believe that there must be a religion/spirituality that is true for all of Creation and is available to all of us all the time, in other words truly universal and perennial. I like William Douglas Horden for for this. His book The Five Emanations is a good place to start.
@@chdaoI love Marshall Davis! I’ll check out that book recommendation as well.
49
+
I don’t know. Isn’t there something dishonest about Pageaus longing for the “symbolic perspective“ ?
What if the divine has been in a constant recession from the world since it began and in that case aren’t Being , immediacy , meaning all things to be mourned ? Maybe god is silent because he cares less than he used to, maybe there’s nothing to return to
That contradicts the revelations. Therefore, that is false.
"just" is such a dismissive word.
can you "just"....
you are "just".....
it is "just"
"You cannot experience the solar system?" Is Johnathan seriously suggesting he cannot see & feel the reality of the sun? His thinking is pure make believe that you see as his eyes turn upwards in a physical sign of creative thinking.
No he is not suggesting that he doesn't experience the sun, he is saying that he experiences the sun and not the solar system. The category of 'solar system' is an abstraction, it is not an experiental category. You don't experience anything at the level of the solar system - what you experience is the concrete reality of the sun rising in the morning, giving light and warmth, and going down in the evening. There is nothing make belief about this, it is simply the contention that experiental categories are better suited to describe our experience of reality, than are scientific, abstract ones.
A come back to my comment could be something like: 'You do experience the solar system through the experience of the sun or the moon, as the sun & moon are part of the solar system. The sun & moon are smaller means by which we perceive the larger category that is the solar system'.
And while that is true in some sense, the question arises, why do you feel the need to abstract the actual, direct experience of perceiving the moon or the sun, into some larger category to which you have no direct access to? The only reason we talk about the 'solar system' as a category is because of abstract knowledge we have - it is completely removed from our direct experience. A person looking into the sky doesn't perceive things at the level of 'solar system' - he perceives a very bright light governing the day, and a lesser light governing the night (like is said in the bible). The point is not that the abstract knowledge is wrong, it's that seeing the abstract knowledge as primary and more important than our direct experience, is why modern Man feels so alienated.
Seems this might have all flown over your head
@@candaniel Excellent explanation
Well guys, all l tell you is that the appearance of the sun rising in the morning is optical illusion caused by the rotation of mother earth. Johnathan gave his flat earth confusion in the lecture he gave in LA l think. The one Jordan Peterson put up on his channel.
The Queen was a heretic. Unfortunately this will only be known the other side of Eternity whilst she roasts in hell.
She is hopefully in Heaven.
@@hunivan7672 Not likely. She used to be the head of a heretic sect, aka the Anglican Church.