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Do you watch elle literacy? With such a (former) name that sounds like “femme fatales”, is a toxic TH-cam channel because she would ruin our favourite teen movies (the High School Musical trilogy and Mean Girls) by forcing us to think that it “demonizes femininity” yet she never accuses the Mean Girls sequel or 2024 musical (or teen sitcoms, for that matter) for literally doing the same thing by concluding her MG review stating that she doesn’t even want to touch upon the rest of the franchise (that should’ve stayed a standalone movie). And Jester Bell is the one getting all the hate (she even made community posts about why she requests they stop) as if she were some anti-woke grifter (just because she has different opinions than the left).
@@kieranstark7213just because you wanna do the whole “but what about” thing doesn’t automatically mean you’ve provided “evidence proof” whatever that whoever’s “wrong” and/or that you’re “right”
@@kieranstark7213you’re not accusing whoever of “hypocrisy”? like seriously whenever wherever there’s someone who’s apparently a SHE HER who’s so much as even BELIEVED to be feminist and/or perhaps something idk related similar whatever there’s seemingly the whole blah blah blah women feminists girls whatever whoever = “hypocrisy” almost as if it’s some gender exclusive thing
I dont think you getting the point, Regina was thee worst in everywhere, if she knew about that teacher, would she talk?probably not unless it benefited her
Tbf on Cady she was manipulated by Janis to take it so far. (who did that because Regina made up some rumor about her being a lesbian who was an obsessive creep not that it makes it okay but yk)
@len4129 Cady is basically "you become the monster you swore to destroy" type. But she learns and changes and is better at the end after making amends
I agree with most of this except Azula. Only hardcore Azula stans excuse everything she does. Most of the fandom likes her while branding her a villain at the same time.
I mean Azula is pretty horrendous, but being fostered by a genocidal maniac would do that to anyone. Feeling sorry for her is absolutely fine and doesnt make you recognize her being horrible less.
True. People act like anyone who enjoys watching a villain is supporting their actions. There's a difference between liking the character because they're written well and are interesting and entertaining, versus liking a character because you think they're likable and good, and you would want to be their friend in real life. Most avatar fans are the former.
@@ia490and though minor she does show some love for those close to her its just that she's so horribly twisted and bent that it comes out as controlling. She was always going to end up screwed her story seems more sad to me. Zuko got out, Azula stayed in that toxic dynamic for all that time
right like she’s a perfect example of how children are a product of their environment. the dichotomy between zuko and azula is so well portrayed. a victim going on to become the villain can be a really difficult trope to write but i truly think they managed to make us feel bad for her without excusing or justifying any of her actions. the fact people absolutely hate while still grasping the nuance of her character means they did their job right
Anyone who justifies Ursula’s actions would you also justify the predatory actions of car dealerships or credit card companies who make most of their money off those who r naive or not knowledgeable in those areas
I have a feeling they would suddenly change their mind. Especially if you make it that a car dealsman targets a rich naive kid just to get daddy's money. All of a sudden people will see whats wrong with it.
For me there's a difference between an explanation and an excuse. Azula's upbringing, as an example, is the explanation you get when you ask yourself _why_ she does the things she does, but it does not excuse those actions. She's still the bad guy, she still did horrible things. Just because we know why doesn't make her actions any better, it just makes her as a character more compelling.
@somerandomnon-importantper3219 Zuko was always less sociopathic and manipulative than Azula considering the childhood flashbacks and that the whole reason he got banished and turned super angry was because he spoke up against the plans his father approved of, but he likely would have been molded into place the way he was after he betrays Iroh where he no longer speaks up against his father's genocidal plans and would have more reason to rationalize his nation's evil than to question it. Maybe Simon from Infinity Train would be a good comparison of a kid who used to be sensitive and nice unlearning his empathy and turning out in the worst way possible.
@@rainpooper7088 Azula's stronger tendency for being cruel is easily explained by the fact that while they were both raised by the same father, Ozai actively shut down Zuko while at the same time actively enabling Azula. And the reason for this difference is quite simply the fact that Azula was more talented. The comics show us that Ozai initially thought Zuko is a non-bender and that made Ozai despise him. Keeping that in mind, it's easy to see why Ursa managed to get through to Zuko more than she ever did to Azula. And that actually makes Ozai's grip over her far, far stronger than Zuko. No kid in this world would want to lose the kind of parent that enables them to do whatever they want
I think we need to have more villains who are evil just because they’re bad, like the ones in old Disney. For example, Cinderella’s stepmother in the animated movie was terrible and terrifying, the perfect depiction of a manipulative master, and she was on of the main reasons why as a child I liked that movie. In the 2015 movie, they made her more complex and it didn’t ruin the movie per se (it’s the only Disney live action I believe is worthy of existing), it was a movie that aimed at being more complex while also maintaining that fairytale aura, but it sort of disappointed a part of me that was attached to old storytelling. Sometimes we need black and white, especially if the story is inspired by a fairytale, the epitome of morality. It’s good to have a psychological analysis of the characters, but it’s becoming too much.
Though, in my opinion, straight up evil villains have to either be comedic, or have some other interesting personality trait, or else they’re boring. Like Yzma from the Emperor’s New Groove, or Jack Horner, from Puss in Boots the Last Wish (for comedic) or Ursula (for having an interesting personality). My point is they have to be intriguing to watch.
@@christiantwist3360 I have a list of characteristics a villain must have to be good for me : 1. Presence through the movie (and influence over it). All of those you named have this. 2. Clear motive. Again, all of those have these. 3. Entertaining personalities. Like you said, they all have. 4. Reflect or parrallel the protagonist in some way. Both yzma and Kuzco are awful at the beginning of the movie, Ursula and Ariel I'm not too sure, Jack Horner and Puss in Boots both have more selfish wishes. 5. Strong Introduction and Strong Defeat. For this one, I'm not too sure since it's been a long time since I've watched these and its a bit more vague.
The hate for Ariel reminds me of when Cinderella was receiving a lot of hate for needing a prince to save her and how she should have just left her abusive family. Fortunately, people started catching on how victim-blamey those criticisms were, especially back in the middle ages when women didn't have any rights but now they moved all of that hatred towards Ariel for being a dumb girl that gave up her voice for a prince, removing all the nuance of her character. I get really annoyed at all the pop feminism criticisms of Disney princesses since more often than not those criticisms end up being more sexist than the movie by only reduces the princesses down to princes obsessed fangirls and removing all of their strengths.
@royalxprincessbaka6875 Not to mention that they blame Disney for adaptating an already existing story. If anything, they should blame the fairytale authors.
@@matityaloran9157 Sure, but most people criticized Disney princesses for falling in love too fast, when that's kind of how most of the original narratives played out.
What really frustrates me is that everyone forgets Ariel was a CHILD, and I fully grown woman STALKED and MANIPULATED her. Also another point when people say Ariel was dumb for taking the deal, they also forget Ariel was just emotionally abused and traumatised from her father, she was in an extremely vulnerable state where in that moment, she was desperate and Ursula took advantage of that. This mindset of victim blaming has to stop, especially when it's literal CHILDREN that are taking the brunt of it. You can like Ursula as a villain, and as a character but don't excuse her actions of MANIPULATING a child by blaming the actual victim to make Ursula seem not that bad in your head. She's evil. She's a monster. She's going to do terrible things. The story literally shows that. And that's not a bad thing cuz in the end, that just makes her a fantastic villain.
The shit people criticize Ariel for, most of the shit she did was stuff that a typical teenage girl would do. She was just a little extreme with it but c'mon, let's not act like some of y'all never did something stupid to impress your crush, or butted heads with your parents about going to certain places.
@@tasmeenbaker9912 And she's literally no different than most of the Disney Princesses, falling in love with and marrying a man that they haven't known very long and willing to put everything on the line for him.
Even As someone who’s favorite Disney villain has always been Ursula I completely agree with you. I don’t see why people defend her by saying that the contract was completely fair. She was a loan shark who preyed on people’s desires and tricked them into signing unfair deals. She spied on Ariel since the beginning of the movie, got to her at the point she was most vulnerable. And let’s not forget she took Ariel’s voice as payment when she knew damn well that Eric would not recognize her without it let alone be interested in her and thereby no kiss. And then she tells Ariel that she doesn’t need her voice to get a man. Fair deal my ass.
Real, she’s a total brat. thats WHY I love her. She’s unapologetically evil and knows how to get the upper hand so she can gain another “poor unfortunate soul”. That entire plot point is the foundation of an inside joke me and my cousin have around an Ursula plushie I have. As much as I love villains with sad backstories, they don’t all need one. (I know there was some play where Ursusla was Tristen’s sister but it’s never shown in the movie so I’m not really counting it). For some villains it’s more beneficial if there’s no explanation as to why they’re evil, other than wanting power and control.
@@Charlie_exe777 Exactly. She’s my fave. Every time I do karaoke my go to is poor unfortunate souls. Also, Where did you get the plushie? I low key want one now 🤣.
@@Elsibis it was a Bulid a bear I got at the mall. If you Google it you might be able to find one online bc I’m pretty sure there’s a website. Also the Poor Unfortunate Souls karaoke is so real
@@Elsibis it’s a Bulid bear plushie I have. Idk where you could get one since idk where you live [and don’t tell me, didn’t mean for that to sound weird] but if you check the website I’m sure you could find a already made version.
Projection and an inability to grapple with their own personal flaws. Edit: I also want to say, I think a lot of Azula defenders also misunderstand why she isn’t redeemed. They treat her mental breakdown like it’s her being punished for her actions and not a painful reminder that despite everything… she’s still a child. It’s tragic storytelling. It’s like getting mad that Romeo and Juliet die at the end because their backstories are so sad.
@@jeffrianbanton5138 Not quite. If you are talking about the latest comic (Azula in the spirit temple), Azula in that comic is telling herself that she will never change, even though she already has. She started out vowing to make her teammates pay for leaving her. And when she finally finds them, she lets them go. She tries to rationalize this decision in her head, but the rationalisation is forced. She quite simply decided to avoid unnecessary violence, even though she's afraid to admit it
Yeah, its a tragedy. Even the Spirit Temple comic further breaks her down. She's a 14 year old girl raised by a militaristic megalomaniac in a might makes right society
@Birdboys I think the whole "projection and an inability to grapple with their own personal flaws" mentality is very very widespread amongst the masses, and I think that mindset influences storytelling, media, pop culture, and entertainment as a whole as fans, audiences, and critics are very very entitled and want everything to revolve around them in order for it to be good and if it doesnt revolve around their unchecked and flawed demands and overgeneralized realities they throw tantrums. They think that if a majority likes and agrees to something they believe, then the world should constantly cater to them and them only and forget about those not privileged to fit into the majority and the status quo shouldnt be questioned then if majority agrees with it or it caters to them. And people who have influence on common opinions, especially in storytelling analyses have that "projection and an inability to grapple with their own personal flaws" mindset and cant admit they are wrong ever and dont want to admit they are wrong ever Modern fans and audiences are ruining storytelling, when writers appeal to their overly demanded and unchecked double standards, when they find a villain or any character "likable", "relatable" , "sympathetic", "human", and/or "badass" , they justify and excuse their actions and overly root for and humanize that villain/character and excuse them, especially if that villain/character does awful things that they dont take personally and/or justify; on the flipside if the villain/character is "unlikable", "unrelatable" and they do awful things, especially when those awful things feel personal to the audience, then they overly demonize that character and refuse to understand them or give them complexity and dont excuse them and those same people excuse their precious "likable" villains that do similar and even worse things than the other villains they find unlikable
I’ve seen so many people say Janis is worse than Regina because of how she uses Cady and doesn’t get punished for her own meanness. However: 1. While it started that way, she came to genuinely see Cady as her friend over time. Why else would she have included Cady in that painting? 2. Her punishment was getting backstabbed by Cady right when her plan was about to succeed.
Though she is not backstabbed by Cady, but rather they grow distant(which is still painful, given how much Janis does value friendships and how few friends she actually has). Plus, she ultimately wins by the end(although the gym scene maybe should be interpreted in more cynical, "Heathers"-esque way, i.e. that demagogues always win).
And, the thought of using Cady for revenge popped up only after she met the Plastics. Janis apparently at first approached her just like that, with no ulterior motives.
@@romualdandrzejczak4093 While I get your angle, I consider it backstabbing because Janis’ plan wasn’t to replace the Plastics, it was to get rid of their hierarchy. So I’d say it’s a big betrayal for Janis when Cady decides to take Regina’s place instead of dismantling her clique. And you make a good point about their first meeting too! Janis and Damian have nothing to gain from Cady until Regina invites her to the Plastics’ table.
Plus, arguably the bigger issue is that Regina started it. I know that sounds childish, but Regina bullied Janis so badly that she became an outcast, and it's something that still affects her years after it happened. Janis' obsessive meanness towards Regina is completely understandable, even if she did take it too far (which she definitely did). It was wrong to use Cady, and a lot of the stuff Janis' did came off as way too cruel (the weight gain stuff especially is difficult to watch, like omg), but the whole campaign of revenge would never have happened if Regina wasn't such a bully in the first place.
Ariel didn't START collecting things from "up there" upon seeing Prince Eric, it propelled her desire. Triton loved his daughters. He feared humans because they were all seen as dangerous, Triton seeing that Ariel hadn't just visited the world "up there" but she became infatuated with a human caused his fear to manifest as fury! The Little Mermaid seemed to be about a young woman who dares to dream of living the life she believed she wanted, the Prince was a part of that, not the entire reason for it. Triton has valad concerns, but in the end he learned to let go and let his daughter live the life SHE wanted.
most point out watching the 3 one will really makes Tridents fury and worry over humans make more sense he saw his wife her mother get killed by humans trying to grab a object made by humans. she was also 16 not yet a woman
@@andreabanuelosavila2317 definitely, they even have a couple of jokes pointing to it: it's been awhile since I've seen The Little Mermaid, but I remember after Triton and Ariel have their 1st argument and Ariel swims away Sebastian the crab simply says to Triton: "teenagers," clearly leaning into the "she's a typical, rebellious teenager, what are you gonna do," narrative.
i hate the “sharpay wasn’t a villain, she was just a theater kid” take so much. as a former theater kid, i can say that her personality very much checks out with some of the snooty theater kids i’ve encountered😂
The only "villainous" thing she ever did was get Ms. Darbus to change the time of the musical in HSM1 to be the same as Troy's game and Gabriella's competition. Is she an entitled, selfish diva, yes but she is not a villain as she hasn't done anything villain worthy.
@@DefyReality-ll2cgUmmm, she still interfered with things negatively which is villain behavior... Like her trying to get Troy good opportunities for college in the second movie just so he could like her.
@@kaity.b5554… it is a bad thing when the boy is a relationship… like she wasn’t giving Troy good opportunities in college just out of the goodness of her heart 💀
it infuriates me when people say “sharpay wasn’t the villain, gabriella was!” like???? did we watch the same movies ☠️☠️☠️ you can prefer sharpay more, yes she has a personality and charisma, but to act like she was some innocent saint who just “wanted the best for troy” and make gabriella the bad guy for standing up for herself against sharpay’s attitude towards her (and her friends mind you) is ridiculous.
People really say, “Sharpay was setting up Troy for success and Gabriella was just somewhere crying” like Gabrielle doesn’t have that kind of money and influence to do all that. She was a 16 year old middle class kid, why would she be focusing her time and energy on her high school boyfriend’s future college plan during their summer vacation ?😭 how you gonna hate on Gabriella for being reasonable and lower class?
Honestly I think most Sharpay defenders are the spoiled theater kids who also couldn’t stand not getting the lead for once in their lives. I met several of them doing musicals growing up
this one annoys me THE MOST! I genuinely cannot think of a single situation where Gabriella did anything wrong. You can make the case for every other character: Sharpay, Chad, Taylor, Ryan, even Zeke...but NOT Gabriella, everyone else did her wrong in the first two movies
The only argument I can agree with is that it’s not so black and white in the first movie; that from Sharpay’s perspective, she’s put all this blood, sweat, and tears into the drama program, and performing is what she’s dedicated herself to, and all of a sudden this new girl and the basketball bro she likes DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT THE MUSICAL THAT MUCH but still come in and snag the leads. I’d be a bit pissed too
Jade in Victorious is also one people excuse, but they more-so like to hate on Tori. But Jade is just a negative person to be around. Only time I relatively agree with Jade is when it comes to Beck, cuz he could try harder to not entertain other girls
And about Jade. She's emotionally abusive while Beck is also toxic. She's legitimately horrible to Tori and even tried to kill her one time. We love her a lot more than Sam but she's still a bad person that no one in their right mind should date or be friends with. However we see in her a lot more so than Sam that she has a little bit of goodness in her. Seeing how she cares so much about Cat and even the few times when she does genuinely care about Tori. She's a horrible person but unlike Sam, maybe she can CHANGE? With some therapy, getting some space from her family (because one look at her dad in that one episode and we can already see how she grew up and why she is the person she is, clearly she grew up in a very strict, repressive and loveless household and deliberately acts out and really goes "crazy" with her appearance and her personality because at home she can't really be herself, whoever that is), and with her dating a good person who only has eyes for her and never makes her feel insecure.....maybe a certain special girl who's name starts with a T...she could actually change and become a better person. With Sam there's just no fixing her.
Yeah people will drag Tori through the mud for all the bad thing she did but Glaze and call Jade and Icon for the worst stuff she's done and try to make Jade seem reasonable with the way she treats Tori.and everyone
Cady isn't mean, though. She was a victim of manipulation. The worst thing she did was write that lie about Ms. Norbury, but that was AFTER the plastics egged her on. She even took accountability for the entirety of the Burnbook and the abhorrent behavior of the other plastics (Regina and Gretchen specifically) even though she absolutely didn't need to.
@rileysjonger4192 she was still a mean girl even if she made up for it. Alot of the plots were her ideas and she enjoyed getting revenge. Even if she was manipulated and conditioned into doing these things( like asula was) she still did it. That's the point of the story on how anyone could be a mean girl. Even Karen ( who I'd say is the least mean girl) knew about the book and allowed her friends to bully others
@@nayasamuels8971 Well comparing a war criminal who was completely complicit in her crimes to a culturally unaware victim of manipulation is insane lol. The only similarity is their conditioning but Asula did unjustifiable crimes. Just because "Cady still did it" doesn't hold much weight considering what she did was not that bad and she was pressured into the role, i.e., when she made up that lie about Ms. Norbury. Being rude to someone who was rude first is not "being a mean girl" and she's allowed to enjoy the revenge considering how awful Regina George was not just to her, but to the entire school. Bullying other girls, tearing down your friends especially Gretchen, being homophobic, and cheating on your boyfriend are pretty inexcusable behaviors, and Cady was right to give Regina a taste of her own medicine. Not to mention how almost all of the plots, including the original idea to get back at Regina, were orchestrated by Janis. Wow, she came up with the idea to have Regina use foot cream instead of facial cream. So mean. Even as she was "in her mean girl" phase, she was genuinely never one. It's made clear in the movie that she does not adapt well to that role. Another example is how throughout her transition, she aimed to help Karen and Gretchen, whom she viewed to be her friends. Cady was a naive, sheltered girl who came from an entirely different continent and was manipulated and used by everyone around her and she had to take the blame for all of it. Did she make mistakes? Yes. But the only bad thing she really did was make up that lie, but she never downplayed it, and wasn't rlly responsible for its distribution. She was used as a scapegoat for everyone else's faults. Everyone can be a mean girl yes, but making mistakes is not the same as being a mean girl. As for Karen, I already attest to that, but I still acknowledge that she was the lesser of three evils. Janis and Regina particularly needed to be held accountable.
@@romualdandrzejczak4093 That's true. Janis orchestrated practically every event in the movie. It's weird that neither her nor Regina were truly held accountable for how they acted.
@@laural4259 I have met Azula fans who consider her an antagonist and not a villain and are mad that Iroh didn’t give her a chance, and want Azula to get redeemed
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 I think Azula IS a villain yet it's also kinda true that Iroh dismissed her as a kid when he favored Zuko. Iroh def showed favoritism and he's long since given up on Azula even tho she's only 14 and Zuko is 16. It isn't mutually exclusive. She is a villain but Iroh still plays favorites with Zuko too
This is why Big Jack Horner (Puss in Boots: The Last Wish) stands out for me. Dude has zero good qualities about him, but John Mulaney managed to make him quite entertaining to listen to, but still managed to remind us, "Yeah, this horrible dude needs to go.".
While I like bringing Jack up, it's worth noting that he's pretty much just played for comedy in a meta sense. You want an actual example of just being evil for the sake of it but played seriously, try Anton from No Country.
@@ci7210 We really do. Which is why I liked Deadpool and Wolverine, despite its flaws, at least Cassandra Nova didnt get redeemed and was diabolically evil
I think a lot of people just like to be contrarian, because a lot of these same people will do the complete opposite treatment for protagonists or other generally good (as in morally good characters) or at least decent characters and say, "This person was the REAL villain!" and use the few flaws they have as "proof" of how "evil" they truly are. It's like those people who say Sharpay was actually a "good person" while claiming that Troy was the "real villain" because he got everything handed to him despite not working as hard as Sharpay, and for being "ungrateful" towards Sharpay in the second movie because of her "helping" him with scholarship opportunities, even though it was obviously done so she could win him over. Troy had flaws, and he certainly was very privileged and had many opportunities handed to him despite not typically deserving it, but it never made sense to me that some people would call him a bad person. Being lucky shouldn't be enough for people to hate you. By that logic, we should hate Sharpay too, since she's rich and is even more privileged than even he is.
@@mynameisreallycool1 The worst offender to me is Beauty and the Beast. The amount of people I saw saying Belle is the villain because "She's mean and selfish ! How dare she not try to help Gaston !" And Gaston being the "Good guy" because "He only wanted to save the village !"
Yes, it's partly that. If you're having a REALLY bad day, you might feel anger and hatred welling up inside you, and you start to understand how villains must feel. Then you start thinking, "Well, I'M not a bad guy, but I feel the same as these villains, so that must mean the villains aren't bad either!" There are other reasons, though - and they often have to do with the hero, not the villain. Perhaps the hero is a jerk much of the time, or is too perfect, or is subtly pushing a social or political agenda certain people find abhorrent. Sometimes you just default to sympathy for the villain for no other reason than because you hate the hero. You need SOME reason to watch.
This is one of my biggest pet peeves. A character will be an objectively horrible person & that’s what makes them great but people will downplay it. There’s even an example of a studio doing it. When Disney made the maleficent movies, they literally made her not evil even though the thing that made maleficent iconic was that she’s a horrible person. I never understand why people like a villain, but downplay their evilness. What else is there to like about them if not how horrible they are.
I semi-agree with you. Sometimes, the fact that they are horrible isn't the main thing to like about them. Sometimes, their redemption or the emotional weight of their battles can be enough. Though I mostly have video game stories in mind
I don’t rlly agree with the “villains should be villains and have no backstory whatsoever!” Going around because yeah those villains could work really well in stories like with Jack Horner in the puss and boots movie, or even Ozai from ATLA because they didn’t need complexity’s and the role they serve is for the main character to defeat them and active peace or whatever. And it’s simple and it works. But you also would need to flesh out villains too. Like Ozai, Azula is an antagonist that the main characters has to defeat. But it’s mostly Zuko who needs to do that. Their battle was tragic BECAUSE of the things we learn about their upbringing and their relationship with each other. And of their goals changing as a result of different views. It’s sad and the show doesn’t treat it like a victory like with Aang fighting Ozai. That’s my opinion anyway. It’s not even that I enjoy the villains sometimes, because they do shitty things, but it makes an amazing story if done right.
Just accept that it's a completely different story that's only loosely based on the original! The new version of Maleficent is quite simply not the same character
@@2triedforthis830 Why not have a variety of villains being villains and no backstoory and vice versa, not every inconic and flashy villain needs that. Like I wish Joker and Bullseye were like that in the comics, instead of how they are in Joker 2019 and Daredevil Season 3. Not every villain needs to be like Joker and Bullseye in the comics , but Joker and Bullseye shouldnt have to cater to the simply overused sympathetic origin story villain trope
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Agreed. Sometimes villains are fascinating not cuz sympathetic but because they're evil yet charismatic and clever and they outsmart the hero every time. They earn their likable standing among fans despite having no sympathetic traits
I feel like a simple reason is that ppl feel the need to justify their behavior and/or make them seem more innocent. Bc it's easier to like someone who's "misunderstand" than to like and defend someone who's just a bad person 💀 Sometimes we need to just let villains be villains and not always try to make them a victim or 'good guy'!
@mayaleelang that mentality is very very widespread amongst Modern fans and audiences are incredibly insecure and self absorbed and cant admit it and are ruining storytelling, when writers appeal to their overly demanded and unchecked double standards. They also have huge condescending egos and never liked to be called out or can handle being wrong or challenged and need to be always right, morally superior, and have the world revolve around them and their hypocrisy and moral double standards
@@hitoriwasright people/modern audiences cannot handle different human realities anymore and decide to trash anything that doesnt come off as likable/agreeable/relatable to them and they try to objectively infantalize stories with "unrelatable" and "unlikable" characters. Its only them and their experiences that matter and not others, especially if others are uncommon and unrelatable to most people.
defending ursula is probably the most egregious entry in this lineup. how can you watch the little mermaid, watch the whole thing and listen to all the dialogue and analyze subtext, and UNIRONICALLY believe in the narrative of ursula not being a true villain? SHE'S PEAK STORYBOOK VILLAIN, SHE'S ALSO ENTERTAINING IS ALL 😭 also, this implies that smart business people cant be evil. lol.
It’s absolutely hilarious that people say that Azula is a misunderstood villain for what I’m about to share. I actually met her voice actress, Grey Delisle, at MoMoCon at an Avatar panel. She herself said that she was absolutely tired of misunderstood villains. She wanted villains who were just villains and that’s what she loved Azula for. She even used Azula’s voice to prove her point actually. It was amazing! EEP!!!!!🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩
I know some people do it because the thought of liking a villain character means you condone their actions. I’ve also seen the opposite where they justify the antagonist by criticizing the hero in some way. An example would be justifying Vidia’s bullying of Tinkerbell cause she was annoying in the Tinkerbell movie.
I’m guilty of that when the “ hero” does hypocritical actions but gets rewarded but people do act like they have to hate on to like the other when you can like both. You can point out characters flaws and still like them.
@rosennacht7654 I think many other people also do it when they empathize or relate to a villain not just cause of insecurity but also they legitimately think those villains are justified and/or think deserved to be excused just cause they were sympathetic/nuanced/human
@@lstarsabb in the barry fan base Sally gets so much more demonization, and Fuches gets overly humanized He’s another example of a character fans make excuses for and needed redeemed.
I think fans sometimes see their favorite characters as reflections ot themselves. Aka: I like X. Thus X can't be bad or it reflects poorly on me. And I'm obviously not bad. So I can't like bad things. I like X. So X must be hero and not villain
People often forget that as the audience, we can like how a character is written even if we can't sympathize or identify with them in real life. It annoys me how Hollywood is doing all this work to make villains sympathetic. Scar, for example, existing just to be a dark reflection of Simba ("I'm the king, I can do whatever I please." "I thought a king can do whatever he wants") already gives him plenty of depth. That's something the Disney remakes fail to understand, which is why I have such a disdain for them.
@tjsmith5276 Modern fans and audiences, say that every single villain needs to have a understandable, rational, “depth” , layers, complexity, and believable motives, be sympathetic and complex and ambiguous, and redeemable in order to be realistic, and a compelling character/villain, otherwise according to people who have these demands, and in every single story wjere their expectations aren’t met and a villain is pure evil and irredeemable, they say that those villains are badly and terribly written, generic, boring, one dimensional, bland, uninteresting, unrealistic, and cartoonish/childish; , and according to them, every single character needs to be three dimensional in order to be good, interesting, “human”, “realistic”, compelling, redeemable, ambiguous, and the only way to be accessible and interesting for “mature adults”. This is what I have observed amongst modern audiences and film nerds and today’s generation. It is soooo frustrating when creatives do cater to these people (from what I have seen or listen to their unchecked and irrational demand’s sometimes rhat are constantly spoonfed. They need villains to constantly be "relatable and sympathetic" in order to engage with a character and if a character doesnt have either of those then they refuse to engage with those characters and when they engage with characters that are "relatable and sympathetic" they take them so personally to the point they need their demands to be spoonfed with how the story treats the relatable or sympathetic characters in order for it to be objectively well written in their eyes They think that if a majority likes and agrees to something they believe, then the world should constantly cater to them and them only and forget about those not privileged to fit into the majority and the status quo shouldnt be questioned then if majority agrees with it or it caters to them.
It’s funny how the same people who make excuses for villains are also the type to overanalyse the heroes almost like their rooting and sympathising with the local terrorist / murderer while treating the guy trying to do good like shit and say they are actually the bad guy for having some flaws but still trying to do good
Because main characters mistakes and flaws are never really addressed or they usually never get real consequences , they usually just justify it or breeze past it , But the villains of the story always do , I think that’s part of the reason so many ppl prefer the mean or Villan character
My complexe middle aged boyscots are beloved becuase while they are the good guys yet but people love them becuase they are fun to hang out with... So yeah why makes your chacters worth liking and not hating.
@@playboibunny4909 i get that. but then people are still apologetic over the antagonists, as if they dont seem to want the character(s) to be held accountable. so while im sure thats part of it, this isnt always the case. i mostly agree with the 1st reply to my comment so far, that ppl think its "cooler" to prefer the antagonist over the protagonist. tbh there are actually plenty of protagonists who do face consequences for their mistakes, but even when that does happen, people still find things to complain about them. so yea, i think most of the time people just love the antagonist because they think its cool, or theyre conventionally attractive or something - not always because someone thinks theyre actually an interesting & valuable character, which yea there are a lot of villains like that, but some of them are just so grotesque & cruel without any redeeming qualities whatsoever, and yet people still love them. thats my take so far, ig.
Yep, people make excuses for villains because we make excuses for ourselves. If we hold villains completely accountable for their actions, then we might remember that we need to hold ourselves accountable. A history of tragedy doesn't mean you don't still have to choose to do the right thing.
@macdri because apparently certain villains not being held accountable is considered objectively good storytelling for modern fans and they want villains to win and get away
You only get a redemption arc if the character makes a change in their life to really make a difference. Some examples include Garmadon, Darth Vader, Ventress, Zuko, Macaque, and Crosshair. These villains have done atrocious actions and killed so many people, yet they were willing to make things right in the end and make amends to those who they hurt. If a villain doesn’t do anything like that and wanting to help others, then they’re just villains with trauma.
Sorry but Vader doesn't count at all. He doesn't make any amends to anyone he hurt, save for his own son Luke. He makes no amends to Leia for allowing her planet to be destroyed, for example. Leia likely never forgave him and she had the right to never forgive her father. Vader is an example who is redeemed thru his own death to save his son. Not because he truly makes amends for the crimes he committed
Here we have tv trops take in Azula under Freudian exuse is no exuse: Despite having clear psychological issues stemming from a lack of family love in Season 3, Azula isn't let off the hook for her actions. Mai and Ty Lee easily turn on her despite hearing her Freudian Excuse at Ember Island because they do not really see her as a friend in need, and Uncle Iroh flat out states she's crazy and needs to go down. This all reaches to a pinnacle in Azula in the Spirit Temple where the dream spirit declares Azula to be a monster not because of how others have treated her, but because of her refusal to accept responsibility or seek redemption.
“But azula deserves a redemption arc-“ ok so what if she does? She didn’t GET a redemption arc in the show therefore she is a villain!! Yes she’s a child and she’s traumatised and she’s complex but she’s still a villain and I find that really cool
People act like if a character deserves a redemption arc, that means they’ll get one. Zuko and Azula are meant to reflect to two different types of children that come from abusive families based on favoritism from the parent. Giving every single villain a redemption arc just because they “deserve” it (I put air quotes bcs some of them really don’t) takes away from how special and empowering redemption arcs actually can be if every character could get one just because they’re sympathetic or because the audience doesn’t want them to be evil.
The thing is... When people say a character deserves a redemption arc, they don't mean that literally. They just mean they want that character to become happy and mentally healthy in their own headcanon
@@Shashu_the_little_Voidling yeah I totally get that! I do think azula deserves to heal but I think some people take that to mean that she’s not a bad person and a literal murderer
In Ariel's defense, Eric would not have been able to save her from being zapped by Ursula if Ariel had not saved HIM from drowning. He was just evening things up.
Personally I thinks its more of a case of people hating the protaganist or relating to the villains more. People who defend Ursula are those that think its ok to rip off or steal from people just because they might have more than them. The kind of people who go on dates, bring their best friend, and order the most expensive thing on the menu. People who defend Azula are the types that write hate rants and revenge porn about getting powers and making everyone who's ever pissed them off pay. Sharpay/Regina is just the means girls who see themselves and feel the need to create excuses even when they can see how much of an ass they are. But that's just me playing the armchair psychologist.
@C0ldlron People have weird double standards where they demonize some characters but justify and humanize and root for other characters who do similar and/or worse things
i think its wrong to say that the other characters in Mean Girls were only mean as a reaction to Regina. The movie clearly established that everyone was just kinda shitty, they did make Regina the most objectionable though.
Its easier for people to drown in their dark side rather than shine in their good side. Most people aren't as kind, friendly or honorable as the heroes tend to be. We resonate more with villains because everyone has flaws and unless your egotistical or go out of your way more than normal people often don't consider themselves as good as the heroes. The heroes are heroes because they are inspirational and we should want to be like them. However us sharing stuff with the villains make us sympathise with them especially if we are given their sad backstory. Then we make excuses because we are similar to them or can see where they went wrong. We wouldn't want anyone to give up on our inherent goodness so we don't give up on others. This is also the reason people are harsher when heroes mess up , we feel betrayed because we made them to be heroes in our minds. Kind of like when you find out your fav celebrity is a horrible person, you feel betrayed and disappointed
I never resonate with villains never had always were the heroes. I mean I understand why villains does those stuff but justice their actions because they had trauma. Seriously? Some of us had trauma don’t killing people because of it
@Markus2E516 people only want villains to be nuanced and sympathetic and tend to resonate more with the villains when it makes them comfortable and excuse them just cause of sympathy when it aligns with their view and when they relate to them they justify them and excuse them and treat them as a overtly humanized gary stu
@@xxxnarurto5747 what op is saying is going to be the case for the penguin show that just came out on Max related to The Batman (2022) and people will root for and justify Oz/The Penguin
To be really fair to the live action Little Mermaid, Ursula being Triton’s sister wasn’t something that was pulled from thin air. It was a scrapped idea that they decided to use. But yeah, Ursula is really fun but she sucks! She’s 100% a villain.
"Ursula being Triton’s sister wasn’t something that was pulled from thin air. It was a scrapped idea that they decided to use." It's also a plausible explanation for why she's still alive at the start of the movie.
Sam Puckett in iCarly isn't really one fans excuse, but someone I feel a combination of the writers and fans brush under the rug. But she literally physically and emotionally abused Freddie, like he should NOT have dated her. I hated how when Mrs. Benson didn't want the two dating, everyone made her seem like she was in the wrong (even Gibby eventually), Sam got way too many chances than she deserved
Have two thing too say. 1. Also, another thing can sympathize with a villain but, still disagree with there action. For example I sympathize with Wanda from WandaVision however I still recognize what she did was wrong. 2. Pure evil character can still be a complex character. For example Screwtape is a pure evil however he one of best and interesting protagonist I have read. A complex character does no mean sympathetic just means have lares too personality.
There's always Claude Frollo coming to mind when people speak that "villains must be sympathetic to be complex" It's my favourite villain of all times. Not because he's sympathetic, but because he's so complex regardless of wheter I relate to him or think he had good points. He has none of those. He's a lustful hypocrite abusing his powers and the only thing that can stop him is his own fear of god's judgement.
@@Chaki21 Book version of Frollo IS sympathetic, though... He is more of a tragic anti-hero(by contrast, Phoebus in the book is a sex-obsessed, boorish jerk).
@@Chaki21 Disney's Frollo is closer to inspector Javert(if we stick to Hugo); even then, Javert is deep down a decent guy, who persecutes Valjean only because of a certain mindset.
@@romualdandrzejczak4093 hmm, haven't finished the novel but from where I am it seems like there's no real villain (though Frollo barely did anything yet and I haven't seen Phoebus)
@@gaslightgatekeepgirlboss6321 I actually thought this before matpat did a video and when you look at the film objectively it’s hard to say Sharpay is the villain with what the friends did: tricking Troy, showing he clip to Gabriela, braking her heart, the whole “stick to the stuff you know” song, like who says to their friends don’t try something new because I think you are only allowed to do one thing.
I wouldn't say she's the main villain of the movie, but nonetheless she is a villain. The first time she had real competition she went out of her way to sabotage them. And people say "she was just dedicated to her work".
Honesty I hate it when people do this. In movies, videogames, or even books there are people who will make excuses for the villain, and try to make the protag, or often the people who were victims of the villain, the perpetrator. It's literally textbook victim blaming and I hate itnso much. Sometimes they just make up stuff so the villain is more simpathetic, which in turn makes it worse. You see this with maleficant, and cruella. A villain who cursed a 16 year old when they were a baby, and a woman who wanted to *skin puppies.* And they try to make them "more complex" for what? Not every villain needs to be complex or sympathetic.
@AngelCat748 this going to be the case for the penguin show that just came out on Max related to The Batman (2022) and people will root for and justify Oz/The Penguin th-cam.com/video/TiwSRGfhWio/w-d-xo.htmlsi=oEDxs2d63k2k9ILv ^^also alot of what you said and pointed out is further showcased in the comment section here with people “relating to” and excusing Poison Ivy just because she cares about plants and social justice and is nice to Harley Quinn and loves her, which is also why especially in the comics DC has “redeemed her” and made her into an anti hero. And also fans excusing Ivy in both Batman TAS and the comics
I hate how people acknowledge that Ariel is young, but still say there’s no way Ursula could’ve taken advantage of her like they would acknowledge that she’s a young naïve girl and then still make it seem like she knew fully what she was getting into !! Also, I feel like it’s so weird to call a young lady girl a whore because she’s a helpless romantic!! And is just curious about land life
It almost like they just answer their own question in their complaint the reason why Ariel makes a deal with Ursula is because she’s a young naïve girl
The problem with this is that Ariel is 15 I think. Or 16. We get she's young and naive and immature. But as such we should also know she isn't an adult and thus shouldn't be selling her voice to be with a man she barely knows. To acknowledge she was taken advantage of also means she isn't old enough to make such a serious decision as abandoning her entire homeland for a boy she never even spoke with.
@@l.n.3372 Eric was more so just kind of a bonus for her. She also just wanted to see the human world!!! Yes she also wanted love but seeing the human world was her biggest want in life
@elenaporras3145 I'm gonna say you're being a little ... facetious here. She didn't do any of that to explore the world. She did it cuz of a boy/man. She did it to be with Eric, whom she had never even spoken to once before trading away her life for the chance to date him. She's willing to abandon her voice and family for a man she'd spied on briefly and never had a single conversation with.
@@l.n.3372 yeah you’re kind of right. I am a little bit fixated on this I guess lol but I truly don’t think Eric was the only reason she wanted to be on land considering the whole like song she had didn’t have any lyric about Eric so I think like one of her main goals was to be on land but I’m not like denying that she loved Eric also I just wanted add here then I’m not like mad at you or anything I’m very fast at replying and I like to rant but am not mad
I've heard the same argument for Hades as Ursula, just predatory businessman that preyed on people's insecurities. I'd say one of my fav villians though is Team Rocket, they try to steal a kid's pikachu for decades but are so comedic while doing it. Ofc I don't condone their actions but in storytelling you can separate the story from real life (though a lot of impressionable and young ppl confuse the two, ik regina influenced a whole generation of bratty teenage girls) and a story is nothing without conflict, there'd be no story.
Thank you for explaining why Sharpay and Ursala were both in the wrong. However, I have to disagree with you about Thanos. That villain was pure evil. He killed billions of innocents just because he didn’t think the universe held enough resources for everyone. He played god and didn’t care who he hurt to accomplish his goal. He was deranged and didn’t deserve to live.
@@angelwatcher374 I think thanks was kinda dumb, like the plan to have a place that is sustainable is good but killing half the population, then destroying the stones is dumb because in like 100 years the population would double and they would have the same problem
Yeah, Bruce Banner spells it out when he calls Thanos a cruel tyrant who takes what he wants. Also, Thanos is literally known as "The Mad Titan" in-universe.
I like to say, when it comes to sympathetic villains (if they are sympathetic), their actions should be understandable, not justified. If they’re justified, then they’re not a villain.
Exactly I never really understand why people are justified villains yes what they do is wrong or messed up in many case but that shouldn’t be justified their actions because what they been through 😅🤦♀
@@xxxnarurto5747 modern fans and audiences tend to get sympathizing and justifying confused together or sympathize with a villain so much that they justify them if that villain is given humanity and relatability
My opinion is that people don't value acknowledgement of wrongdoing in stories often anymore. I remember when that sometimes was the focus of entire stories (A Christmas Carole). But recently that plot device is either seen as overused (boring) or an outright betrayal of the character (weakness). Whereas when characters stick unapologetically to their bad behavior, they are deemed strong and capable and even heroic. Again just my opinion.
@kasdnkol it’s happening right now with the The Boys/Gen V fanbase when it comes to characters like Sam Riordan and Cate Dunalp. I think people especially generation Z, don’t acknowledge wrong doing when they are biased towards characters with humanity or who save cats and that character didnt do anything “that bad”
So many people think Azula alway had it just as hard as Zuko, but no, it’s not 100% true. The point that the show made was that she was more favored than Zuko. Zuko was the one who got physically and mentally abused, for not falling in line. Azula However was already more sadistic and treated everyone terribly, she even smiles when she sees Zuko get hurt by his father (look at her reaction to when her dad burns Zuko in the face, she smiles at it) she enjoys seeing others in pain and being controlled under her, (her “friends” for example) and think she’s owed everything because that’s what she’s always been given in trade for being a excellent fire bender: everything. She’s also very self aware of her own actions and how they are harmful, hence the “my mother thought I was a monster…I mean she was right” scene. Zuko NEEDED Iroh and others to recognize his own actions and how pointless and harmful they were, he’s not as self aware (nonetheless his actions were still wrong) but Azula is aware.
Ariel is just a girl, literally, a teenager who falls in love with a guy and that becomes the reason for her to go on earth; she’s misunderstood by her father and wants to break the rules he set (like most teenagers do); also, side note: no one said she married Eric at 16, there’s a cut from the moment they met again and their wedding (like with Cinderella) with Sharpay, even though there are some moments when we audience empathise with her, she’s still the main antagonist; she’s not evil, she just wants to be the center of attention, and if that means throwing other people under the bus, she’ll do it; she’s a funny villain though, one we love to hate and to see defeated, but also to get some sweet moments (like befriending the wildcats or genuinely wanting Troy to sing with her) Regina was the head of the mean girls pyramid, it’s “her” fault if Janis manipulated Cady to make her destroy the plastics; all three got punished in some way, and yes, Janis and Cady become meaner than her, but that doesn’t excuse her for bullying everyone for years
They don’t see heroes or protagonists as human beings basically wanting them to be like Jesus completely selfless to the their own detriment like Spiderman but unfortunately for them as much as I love Peter no one in real life is that selfless, while also making excuses for villains and antagonists because society has a hard on for bad ppl.
@@dirammy Its funny as Daredevil's flaws are glossed over (how he treated Melvin Potter in Season 3) because Daredevil is "complex" but Carmy in The Bear Season 3 is considered a bad character because he isnt jesus and is severely flawed
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 They like being inconsistent with their beliefs, these are the same ppl who don’t like eren jaeger like what happened to the other genocidal maniacs you defended
9:49 I remember a quote from Nicque Marina (a pretty funny tiktok/youtuber). She basically said that trauma happens, and you can be a hero or a villain based on how you respond to said trauma.
Fantastic video! I see this all the time. People relate to a certain villain or antagonist and feel cognitive dissonance about relating to the villain so they discount bad behavior or create a rationale for the bad behavior so they don't have to question their own moral “goodness”. But as a dark romance lover, I love a bad guy.
@lajourdanne I dont think it is just and only cognitive dissonance about relating to the villain but in today's society these same people root for villains all the time now and legitimately think they are justified and didnt do much wrong and think those villains should legitimately be excused and exempt, especially if those villains are humanized or come from a sympathetic/understandable standpoint
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 also very true! I think I was overly optimistic about what proportion of people don't actually think the villains did nothing wrong. But you're definitely right.
Azula's character was treated the way she was supposed to be. Aang vs Ozai's fight was a fight of good and evil, but Zuko vs Azula's was a tragic but necessary one. It shouldn't have had to end the way it did, they should've been very close brother & sister in a healthy family dynamic...but unfortunately that's not what happened. Azula was too far to truly be redeemed, she's manipulative, a liar, and doesn't play fair (even in her fight with Zuko, she tried to play dirty and attack Katara with lightning...Azula plays dirty and lacks honor, her behavior has consequences). And the ending of her crying shows that it's an unfortunate circumstance since she is just a child. And Katara and Zuko don't see it as a victory, they feel bad for her, but Azula had to lose it all
Yes, she had to lose it all, just like Zuko did. People who are in their position need to lose everything they have before they can finally start to re-evaluate their world view. Zuko had experiences that made him see how the fire nation affects other lives. Azula did not. They really are not that different, Azula is simply further behind him on the path
I’m so tired of people saying azula was too far to be redeemed when there’s villains who are just as bad as her or even worse who got redemption arcs, also she is a CHILD. Not to mention, zuko saw the other side, azula didn’t. Azula was always expected to be evil and had no reason to rebel against it, doesn’t mean she has no chance of being redeemed
@@Angelina-yp2sn yeah I agree but I feel like it’s just a lot for her to unpack and I don’t really think she’s willing to do the work for it, she’s so used to being strategic and manipulative, that redemption just isn’t really in the cards for her. I think she had to lose it all in order for her to truly know she has been living very wrong and needs to find a new way. I always felt like Aang would’ve been a great person for Azula to learn from, since he has been so strong on his morals, he could be Azula’s Iroh. But he has lots of responsibilities and likes Katara so idk if he’s have the time
@@growingupwithdisney I have met Azula fans who consider her an antagonist and not a villain and are mad that Iroh didn’t give her a chance, and want Azula to get redeemed
All these excuses for villains reminds me of the excuses many teachers make for pupils who are insufferable. During my school days certain insufferable classmates often got a slap on the wrist, or less, because teachers made lame excuses. This is especially true if the insufferable classmate is a nerd.
this going to be the case for the penguin show that just came out on Max related to The Batman (2022) and people will root for and justify Oz/The Penguin
its mentioned in the vid but i always found the ursula revisionism takes of her "evilness" dumb due to her purposely sabotaging ariel near the end once she gets close to succeeding 💀
Glad you brought up how Ozai could be considered a victim of parental abuse just like people view Azula. I feel like that argument can stretch back even further, to Azulon as well if Sozin was an abusive parent to him.
Except she has no real power. Her power (not skill) is Ozai's and she basically doesn't even act in her own stead. She is nothing more than his right arm and her biggest desire is for him to acknowledge her
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219thats still a lot of power though? she has a lot of effect over other peoples lives, and she wastes no time ruining them if she sees fit.
@somerandomnon-importantper3219 That's not true at all. Azula is given hella free reign by daddy. Azula is a brilliant villain BECAUSE of what she accomplished. Sure she does it in the name of her homeland but she makes plans, is clever, executes her plans, and thus her actions drive the plot more than any other ATLA villain. Her capture of Ba Sing Se is entirely of her own accord. She heard about the eclipse plot and she sneakily subverts it too.
@@l.n.3372 Yes, but does she really do it for herself? Or is she just desperately seeking approval from a father who sees her as a tool and doesn't feel any need to praise her? Because if it really was the former, being rejected by Ozai in the finale would not have broken her that badly
@somerandomnon-importantper3219 I think it's quite demeaning that you (not you in particular, you as a general term) dismiss Azula as doing or earning nothing for any purpose beyond daddy's approval tho. It's not mutually exclusive. She wants daddy's approval. She is heartbroken that she doesn't have mommy's approval either. Yet she is still capable of executing complex plans with skill and ability because she's a great villain who happens to do bad things very well. Hell she DOES receive daddy's approval a number of times. Ozai praised her in front of Azulon in flashback. Ozai says her plan is good during a war meeting. You're acting like she NEVER received any approval from daddy when it's frankly untrue. Azula breakdown at the end is partially cuz of Ozai but I'd argue it's primarily cuz of Ursa.
14:37 Thank YOU!🙏🏾👏🏾 And I agree with everything you said in this video. Villains are created for storytelling. We can like them without trying make excuses for their actions. I like the 3 Descendants films, and I still think the characters actions were wrong even if they had their reasons.
The way I had to argue with a friend that kept saying not only was it wrong to call Jason Voorhe a villain but also tried to proprose that Jason was the “victim”, all just because of his tragic history and him not having as solid of a thought process given him being basically undead and just trying to keep the camp isolated. The whole fucking point is that doesnt at all justify him in killing innocent fucking people, its LITERALLY evil to kill innocent people no matter what and there is nothing at all that can make Jason the “victim” when he’s chopping random people’s heads off with a machete when they literally didnt do shit to him. Its gotten so bad to where they cant comprehend a villain does something besides the most paper-thin “mwahahah Im doing evil things just because I like being evil” and they then try to justify their actions or remove accountability and make a pity party for them.
@NovemberKnights Ironically you can apply a similar argument with Freddy if you consider his backstory of being with an abusive foster Father until he murdered him among other things. One can say he was a "victim" to, but that doesn't change the fact he was still a child murdering serial killer long before he got his dream powers. I will say that Freddy is still more evil then Jason especially since he enjoys tormenting people for fun, but Jason is still an evil murderer regardless if he enjoys it or not.
@NovemberKnights THANKKK YOUUU!!! And ntm, this friend ALSO claimed Jason's mother from the first Friday 13th wasn't the villain and somehow completely justified when the fucking victims in the first movie didn't even have shit to do with what happened to Jason. Like are you fucking kidding me???
I’ve seen people make similar comments and excuses for villains like the evil queen from Snow White, Lady Tremaine from Cinderella, Maleficent, Scar, Jafar, Gaston, Yzma, and (say what you will about Wish) Magnifico even without live action remakes or reimaginings There are even whole fanfics based on excuses or sympathy made for Voldemort or other
I mean we do it in real life all the time. Everyone does it. Who hasn't tried justifying something bad their family or friends did? Or a celebrity? Or the military, the police, large companies, teachers, parents, children, countries, religions, genders etc. Its human to empathize with people we have some connection with, regardless of what they did or who they are. We're kinda dumb like that. Its why every justice system in the world constantly fails at delivering actual justice.
And thats the sucky part. Ppl are so obsessed with trying to root for the bad guy because they want to seem “smarter” when theyre not and theyre straight up gaslighting and painting this idea that theliteral villain in a real-life situation is a victim JUST BECUASE of the fact that theyre being held accountable for their actions. All while completely downplaying the ones they acted against (the literal actual victims) and what they were subjected to (and the struggles they went through to even speak out about what happened).
Right have you seen the fangirls and fanboys of some criminals like Ted Bundy or other „good looking“ guys who excuse their crimes The only difference is that they don’t have any connection and just go for the looks
I mean I kind disagree with you 100 percent because honestly I don’t do that if you say I do than you actually know me 🥰 @GlaDos321. Only normal people who actually does that
@@donavondavis1550 People have weird double standards where they demonize some characters but justify and humanize and root for other characters who do similar and/or worse things
I don’t even see why people always called Iroh a war criminal. That’s a different thing than just participating in a war. By our standards, we can probably call Azula a war criminal though. I think it’s reasonable to assume that she acts in an official capacity by virtue of being a Fire Nation Princess when she surrenders to the Avatar (who can reasonably be considered an official among the enemy forces) but attacks Iroh anyway, she commits a war crime. I do think that Azula gets a free pass from a lot of people because she’s literally a 14 year old child. They see her potential to change and care more about that hope more than they care about what she did.
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219 That’s true but let’s be for real; burning a city down surely can’t be a war crime in a world where benders exist. That’s just a natural ability born to firebenders. Earthbenders could literally launch giant boulders into or onto anyone they fight. If your city is on an island, waterbenders could rock up on a full moon and cause an unnatural disaster. The other side of that is that Iroh does not in fact burn Ba Sing Se to the ground lol
@@RiseeRee I mean, war-crimes are by their definition tailored to our own, real world and the way we real life humans actually wage war, so using the term in fiction is pretty much meaningless anyway if you ask me. The thing that I think needs to be pointed out is that Azula conquered Ba Sing Se without incurring one single casualty except the Avatar himself. People love to call her sadistic when she is quite literally the most efficient and result oriented person in the show. She gloats in her victories, but she never does more damage than needed
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219 He was still helping his colonial empire to expand and take over the world. Even if he didn't do anything to brutal during the siege he was still a operator in the war machine, and didn't realize this until his son got killed in battle. Which I imagine why he didn't try to fight for the throne when he certainly could've fought against Ozai for it.
I dont think people are saying that what Azula did was justified, it's just understandable. What you described when talking about her is exactly what a complex villain SHOULD be. Shes sympathetic but still a clear villain. You can imagine a world where things couldve turned out different for her and thats sad
Honestly, in my opinion as someone who is in the fandom sphere, some (loud and obnoxious) people really like to use the "if you like x character, that means you condone their actions and that makes you a terrible person IRL" argument. That makes certain fans get really defensive of their faves, and they start searching for excuses to justify/redeem the actions of said fave. The two groups end up fighting over the character and which interpretation is 'The Correct One (tm)'. As a fandom dweller, this whole back and forth creates such a toxic and agressive environment. I actually started to avoid interacting with others on Twitter and TikTok, because it seems like everything in these platforms just end in conflict. I tend to stick to Tumblr now. Many people left to join Twitter, the tumblerinas that stayed tend to be pretty chill. Early/mid 2010s Tumblr and Tumblr now have VERY different crowds. It's less people to interact with, but interactions in general are a lot more pleasant. TL,DR: toxic fans and instigating fights, and those that are defensive of their problematic faves try to pull excuses out of their ass to justify why they like them.
I believe Scream movie explained it best about villains being more scarier when there is no motive, even if there is one doesn't mean what the villain is doing is justified. Some people are just simply evil
I was thinking about writing a TV show where the protagonist meets two twin brothers. One twin is pure of heart and always wants to do the right thing. The other twin is just plain evil. He does so, so many horrible, disgusting things all throughout the show, and when the first twin angrily confronts his brother about those evil things and demands to know why he did it, he simply takes a bite of a chicken sandwich while casually saying that he did it for “no reason” and then takes a sip from his soda. His motive is never even revealed. In fact, it’s not even sure if he HAS a motive in the first place.
I don't think your theory about the Hays code really holds much water. The code was abandoned in 1968 and film-makers immediately started making movies with questionable protagonists and sympathetic antagonists: Easy Rider, a movie about drug dealer bikers, came out in 1969, The Godfather came out in 1972 and Taxi Driver in 1976, so I don't think we're only be feeling the effects of this now. Also books and plays have always been able to get away with having these types of characters and they were much more popular forms of media for a longer time.
Funny thing, just as I was watching this video another video popped up in my notifications about Thanos was right 😂 Also, I found a phrase that kinda fits why people make excuses for villains...the positivity trap-a phenomenon where people tend to become excessively focused on maintaining a positive outlook, often at the expense of acknowledging or addressing negative emotions and experiences. By rationalizing or justifying the actions of a villainous character, people succumb to a cognitive bias that seeks to find positive attributes or reasons for negative behavior. This phenomenon can be attributed to a desire to maintain harmony, avoid conflict, or hold onto optimistic beliefs about human nature. However, by overlooking or downplaying the harmful actions of a villain, folks risk undermining accountability, perpetuating harmful behavior, and distorting the moral complexity of the narrative. This shift in focus takes away from the harm they've inflicted upon others. Additionally, the positivity trap can hinder critical thinking and moral judgment by prioritizing perceived good intentions over actual consequences. Ultimately, making excuses for villains not only enables unethical behavior but also perpetuates a dangerous myth that villains can be redeemed or justified through sympathetic narratives. Let's all do better whether that be in fiction or nonfiction (reality).
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 is this an agreement? Tryna figure out how I should take your comment. I'm not familiar with how fans treat Kingpin but I know some fans make excuses for Poison Ivy
If you make "tragic backstories", they're no longer villains, just victims. It helps perpetuate the blameless society, where everyone is a victim, no one is the villain, and the dreaded "someone else" is always to blame.
@droth1031 That sounds very problematic on all sorts of levels and the modern gen z fans that keep endorsing that archetype where the only humanize things that are close to them and project and demonize things far away from them People keep wanting to make themselves and what they are emotionally attached to not the problem and all the things they have no emotional connection to as the problem
It kinda applies to real life, too, especially if you take the "Truth In Television" trope into consideration. I'd go in further detail, but I wouldn't want to bore anyone or be perceived as negative, so just look up the trope.
The thing they seem to overlook is that Ariel was fascinated with the world "up there" way before she laid eyes on Eric. Her room was filled with things that she collected from her visits. She wanted her independence, she didn't want to live under the sea, she wanted more.
I am gonna be cynical and say the reason people excuse Ursula so much is because their idea of feminism is being self-centred and selfish. Which is what Ursula and some other female villains, including even Azula, are (and which isn't nor should be what feminism is about). So ofc they're gonna defend her saying she's just "doing business", ignoring the fact entirely that she was preying on Ariel. Imagine if it was a man preying like that on a 16 year old girl, wouldn't it look like a pretty terrible thing to do now? It's just so infuriating because Ariel has always been my favourite Disney princess since I can remember. And the reason why she's my favourite is exactly because I liked her adventurous spirit and curiosity. At a young age, I even related to it because I too wanted to go on adventures and explore the world. And never have I ever gotten the impression that Ariel just wanted to be a human for a man. It's made very clear that she was already curious about the human world, and in fact it could be argued that her falling in love with Eric was influenced by that desire (not that she didn't like Eric- she did truly fall in love with him).
Evem as a kid when I watched the little mermaid I could see the tricks ursula was using to manipulate ariel to sign a contract, such as not giving her time to read the contract, pressuring her and use of emotive words to push Ariel's buttons. All while she's a 16 yr old child and not legally old enough to make legal decisions without patental support, the contract shpuldnt be binding. I was surprised the magic decided it was binding at the end, but after too much over thought as a youth, I wondered if its only cos ariel believed it was, magic is more about magic thoughts/beliefs even in fairytales. And thats not even factoring in the ongoing sabotage to prevent ariel succeeding her end of the invalid contract.
For the three of them in the thumbnail, Azula did attempted murder on several people, nothing can justify that. (And 90 % of the fanbase know this, and are trolling when they say otherwise.) Regina George is roundabout the meanest being on Earth: A teenage girl. Ursula tried to sabotage Ariel's tries to fulfill her contract. That's not how you do business in real life without deserving a jail sentence.
Loki killed a bunch of people, I don’t hear anyone complaining about his redemption. While we’re at it Nebula tried to kill her own sister, Darth Vader killed millions of people and A-train laughed about running through Robin and got innocent people killed. Azula tried to kill people because that’s literally what she was raised to ba child soldier and a killing machine. In the beach episode we literally see that she can’t be normal even when she tries because all she knows is how to be a weapon
For antiheroes I think it’s because they are not opposed to killing so I think they’re like a good alternative to heroes like Batman and his ideals take the punisher, but then again if superheroes actually existed wouldn’t antihero’s be more realistic since most ppl ain’t that virtuous or selfless
Bearing in mind with Azula, she basically conquered Bah Sing Se because she was bored. Like it was a well executed plan, but nobody told her to do that. She just did that because she felt like it. She was only supposed to go an arrest Iroh and Zuko, she didn't need to bother with Aang or Bah Sing Se if she didn't want to. I love Azula's character, she has allot of depth, but i hate when people try to paint her as a victim in the same light as Zuko. Even in the flashbacks to them as children we see her being borderline cruel. She's a great character, and i'd argue she is a tragic character but she is still evil without remorse.
I often say that, in the Harry Potter books, Severus Snape is one of my favorite charecters but also one of my least favorite people in that universe. As a charecter he was very well writen, but that doesn't chage the fact that he was an adult using his position as a teacher to bully children. Also, when given the task of teaching Harry a skill that could be crucial to his survival, Snape took the oportunity to berate and humiliate him. I aplly the same logic for Disney villians. I love them as characters, not as people. They are what I would never want to be as a person. I'd rather be like Snow White, who in a matter of hours after loosing everything and discovering that her only familly wanted her dead used her qualities and skils to make a new life for herself.
Calling Azula a war criminal isn’t hyperbolic. She enthusiastically goes on wars of aggression and territorial contests, threatens to kill subordinates for the sake of power, and advocates for systematically exterminating an entire civilization (she was the one who suggested that Ozai use Sozins comment to wipe out the Earth Kingdom like what was done with the Air Nomads). Yeah. She was participating in flat out genocide. This also included trying to kill Avatar Aang, the last living air bender. The villainous deeds of Azula were war crimes by the purest of definition.
With Azula there are layers and I personally feel bad for her. A 14-year-old girl who has been made into a child soldier and is trying to appease her father is compelling about the redemption arc there was supposed to be a 4th season, but that didn't happen so fans are more about what could have been.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 He wasn’t telling Zuko she was a lost cause he was just saying she is too dangerous and mentally unstable to make her truly understand Zuko’s struggle.
@rdmrdm2659 it’s happening right now with the The Boys/Gen V fanbase when it comes to characters like Sam Riordan and Cate Dunalp especially Sam , because people say he’s sympathetic and mentally ill and has humanity and therefore is excused
You know, it would actually be really interesting if Hollywood did a movie where the 'sympathetic villains' won and show the consequences of them winning
Even in Avatar Aang sequel novel , Azula didn't changed much she was less cruel and willing to forge her own path with people who serve and obey her She didn't killed the Fire warriors who left her
What I hate about movies is when they make it seem like the Prettiest Girl is always mean and just plain bad, while the ugly girl, or semi-pretty girl, is the hero and good girl. While sometimes it's true in real life, that's not always the case.
fr I was an awkward/nerdy kid and I was an absolute asshole because I was insecure about it. Other girls were kind of rude to me in middle school/late elementary, but to be honest, I wasn’t much better.
Ironically the people who defend Ursula for being “just a business woman” would be more accurate if they were describing the original Sea witch in the original Hans Christen Andersen little mermaid story. In the original story while intimidating and mysterious the Sea witch wasn’t really a villain, she had no plans to manipulate the main character or take over the sea or anything like that, the mermaid just went to her in the hopes to become human and gain an immortal soul as well, that for whatever reason merfolk lack with her tongue being the payment for the magic, with a mermaids song being exactly like a sirens. The witch tells her what she needs to do and what the consequences are which are if she fails to marry the prince she’ll die, turn to seafoam, and just cease to exist. And when she did fail to marry the prince who fell in love with a princess he assumed saved him, the mermaid’s sisters came to her with a knife that they paid to get from the sea witch by cutting there hair and if she uses the knife to stab and kill the prince and let his blood get on her legs she’ll become a mermaid again to live the rest of her longer lifespan. But she refused to kill the man she loved who was happy to be with his new wife. So when the sun rose she drops the knife and falls off the ship and dies, and depending on the version of the story she either become a daughter of the air spirit where she’ll work for 300 years to gain her soul and pass on to heaven or she just gets her soul immediately and goes to heaven directly.
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Do you watch elle literacy? With such a (former) name that sounds like “femme fatales”, is a toxic TH-cam channel because she would ruin our favourite teen movies (the High School Musical trilogy and Mean Girls) by forcing us to think that it “demonizes femininity” yet she never accuses the Mean Girls sequel or 2024 musical (or teen sitcoms, for that matter) for literally doing the same thing by concluding her MG review stating that she doesn’t even want to touch upon the rest of the franchise (that should’ve stayed a standalone movie).
And Jester Bell is the one getting all the hate (she even made community posts about why she requests they stop) as if she were some anti-woke grifter (just because she has different opinions than the left).
@@kieranstark7213seems true that there’s indeed the whole demonizing femininity thing
@@kieranstark7213”by forcing us to think”? who’s the “us”?
@@kieranstark7213just because you wanna do the whole “but what about” thing doesn’t automatically mean you’ve provided “evidence proof” whatever that whoever’s “wrong” and/or that you’re “right”
@@kieranstark7213you’re not accusing whoever of “hypocrisy”? like seriously whenever wherever there’s someone who’s apparently a SHE HER who’s so much as even BELIEVED to be feminist and/or perhaps something idk related similar whatever there’s seemingly the whole blah blah blah women feminists girls whatever whoever = “hypocrisy” almost as if it’s some gender exclusive thing
Crazy how Regina was portrayed as an ultimate evil meanwhile there was a teacher sleeping with two underage students💀
True but this is in a high-schoolers perspective so it kind of makes sense lmao
I dont think you getting the point, Regina was thee worst in everywhere, if she knew about that teacher, would she talk?probably not unless it benefited her
Janice also forgetting she took is a mean girl and there is a reason she and Regina were friends.
That wasn’t the point of the movie💀
They’re both evil.
The good thing about mean girls is that both the antagonist and protagonist were complex characters.
Tbf on Cady she was manipulated by Janis to take it so far. (who did that because Regina made up some rumor about her being a lesbian who was an obsessive creep not that it makes it okay but yk)
@@len4129 Cady's a bitch and she won
She should run for president
@len4129
Cady is basically "you become the monster you swore to destroy" type. But she learns and changes and is better at the end after making amends
@@l.n.3372 Cady lied to everybody including the viewers
I agree with most of this except Azula. Only hardcore Azula stans excuse everything she does. Most of the fandom likes her while branding her a villain at the same time.
I mean Azula is pretty horrendous, but being fostered by a genocidal maniac would do that to anyone. Feeling sorry for her is absolutely fine and doesnt make you recognize her being horrible less.
@@GinkgoPete yes and for me personally her age is also a factor. she's only 14
True. People act like anyone who enjoys watching a villain is supporting their actions. There's a difference between liking the character because they're written well and are interesting and entertaining, versus liking a character because you think they're likable and good, and you would want to be their friend in real life. Most avatar fans are the former.
@@ia490and though minor she does show some love for those close to her its just that she's so horribly twisted and bent that it comes out as controlling. She was always going to end up screwed her story seems more sad to me. Zuko got out, Azula stayed in that toxic dynamic for all that time
right like she’s a perfect example of how children are a product of their environment. the dichotomy between zuko and azula is so well portrayed. a victim going on to become the villain can be a really difficult trope to write but i truly think they managed to make us feel bad for her without excusing or justifying any of her actions. the fact people absolutely hate while still grasping the nuance of her character means they did their job right
Anyone who justifies Ursula’s actions would you also justify the predatory actions of car dealerships or credit card companies who make most of their money off those who r naive or not knowledgeable in those areas
I have a feeling they would suddenly change their mind. Especially if you make it that a car dealsman targets a rich naive kid just to get daddy's money. All of a sudden people will see whats wrong with it.
she literally told ariel what would happen lol
@@dimentioo Ursula didn’t tell that she would deliberately sabotage Ariel including brainwashing the one she was supposed to kiss.
😂😂😂 true
Someone compared Ursula to a bank or a loan shark cause if you sign a contract with them, they own you and will indebt you forever
For me there's a difference between an explanation and an excuse. Azula's upbringing, as an example, is the explanation you get when you ask yourself _why_ she does the things she does, but it does not excuse those actions. She's still the bad guy, she still did horrible things. Just because we know why doesn't make her actions any better, it just makes her as a character more compelling.
At the same time, I wish more people realized that if Ozai had not outright banished Zuko, Zuko would never have changed either
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219 correct! And had Lu Ten not died, Iroh most likely wouldn't have either
Yeah, it's a Edyphus problem. His actions was determined by his fate, wchich is explaination, but it is still moraly wrong
@somerandomnon-importantper3219
Zuko was always less sociopathic and manipulative than Azula considering the childhood flashbacks and that the whole reason he got banished and turned super angry was because he spoke up against the plans his father approved of, but he likely would have been molded into place the way he was after he betrays Iroh where he no longer speaks up against his father's genocidal plans and would have more reason to rationalize his nation's evil than to question it. Maybe Simon from Infinity Train would be a good comparison of a kid who used to be sensitive and nice unlearning his empathy and turning out in the worst way possible.
@@rainpooper7088 Azula's stronger tendency for being cruel is easily explained by the fact that while they were both raised by the same father, Ozai actively shut down Zuko while at the same time actively enabling Azula. And the reason for this difference is quite simply the fact that Azula was more talented. The comics show us that Ozai initially thought Zuko is a non-bender and that made Ozai despise him. Keeping that in mind, it's easy to see why Ursa managed to get through to Zuko more than she ever did to Azula.
And that actually makes Ozai's grip over her far, far stronger than Zuko. No kid in this world would want to lose the kind of parent that enables them to do whatever they want
There's nothing wrong with a villain who's just straight up evil; not that I don't love complex villains or villains that are sympathetic.
I think we need to have more villains who are evil just because they’re bad, like the ones in old Disney. For example, Cinderella’s stepmother in the animated movie was terrible and terrifying, the perfect depiction of a manipulative master, and she was on of the main reasons why as a child I liked that movie. In the 2015 movie, they made her more complex and it didn’t ruin the movie per se (it’s the only Disney live action I believe is worthy of existing), it was a movie that aimed at being more complex while also maintaining that fairytale aura, but it sort of disappointed a part of me that was attached to old storytelling. Sometimes we need black and white, especially if the story is inspired by a fairytale, the epitome of morality. It’s good to have a psychological analysis of the characters, but it’s becoming too much.
Well I kinda disagree because pure evil villain can still be a complex character. Look at screwtape though so maybe not count him.
Though, in my opinion, straight up evil villains have to either be comedic, or have some other interesting personality trait, or else they’re boring. Like Yzma from the Emperor’s New Groove, or Jack Horner, from Puss in Boots the Last Wish (for comedic) or Ursula (for having an interesting personality). My point is they have to be intriguing to watch.
@@christiantwist3360 I have a list of characteristics a villain must have to be good for me :
1. Presence through the movie (and influence over it). All of those you named have this.
2. Clear motive. Again, all of those have these.
3. Entertaining personalities. Like you said, they all have.
4. Reflect or parrallel the protagonist in some way. Both yzma and Kuzco are awful at the beginning of the movie, Ursula and Ariel I'm not too sure, Jack Horner and Puss in Boots both have more selfish wishes.
5. Strong Introduction and Strong Defeat. For this one, I'm not too sure since it's been a long time since I've watched these and its a bit more vague.
@@Macomeparlifra TBF, even those who commit evil acts IRL find some way, in their mind, to justify their evil
The hate for Ariel reminds me of when Cinderella was receiving a lot of hate for needing a prince to save her and how she should have just left her abusive family. Fortunately, people started catching on how victim-blamey those criticisms were, especially back in the middle ages when women didn't have any rights but now they moved all of that hatred towards Ariel for being a dumb girl that gave up her voice for a prince, removing all the nuance of her character. I get really annoyed at all the pop feminism criticisms of Disney princesses since more often than not those criticisms end up being more sexist than the movie by only reduces the princesses down to princes obsessed fangirls and removing all of their strengths.
Good point
“more often than not those criticisms end up being more sexist” yes!!
@royalxprincessbaka6875 Not to mention that they blame Disney for adaptating an already existing story. If anything, they should blame the fairytale authors.
@@ThePrincessCH Not really. Disney’s The Little Mermaid is too different from the Hans Christian Andersen story for that to work
@@matityaloran9157 Sure, but most people criticized Disney princesses for falling in love too fast, when that's kind of how most of the original narratives played out.
What really frustrates me is that everyone forgets Ariel was a CHILD, and I fully grown woman STALKED and MANIPULATED her. Also another point when people say Ariel was dumb for taking the deal, they also forget Ariel was just emotionally abused and traumatised from her father, she was in an extremely vulnerable state where in that moment, she was desperate and Ursula took advantage of that. This mindset of victim blaming has to stop, especially when it's literal CHILDREN that are taking the brunt of it. You can like Ursula as a villain, and as a character but don't excuse her actions of MANIPULATING a child by blaming the actual victim to make Ursula seem not that bad in your head. She's evil. She's a monster. She's going to do terrible things. The story literally shows that. And that's not a bad thing cuz in the end, that just makes her a fantastic villain.
The shit people criticize Ariel for, most of the shit she did was stuff that a typical teenage girl would do. She was just a little extreme with it but c'mon, let's not act like some of y'all never did something stupid to impress your crush, or butted heads with your parents about going to certain places.
@@tasmeenbaker9912 I don't even blame Ariel because look at her father! He straight up destroyed her belongings because she had a crush on a boy.
@@tasmeenbaker9912 And she's literally no different than most of the Disney Princesses, falling in love with and marrying a man that they haven't known very long and willing to put everything on the line for him.
For real like you mean to tell me a 16 year old girl didn’t make the best decisions 100% of the time…….. Wow shocker.
@@truthseeker9249
nah not really
Even As someone who’s favorite Disney villain has always been Ursula I completely agree with you. I don’t see why people defend her by saying that the contract was completely fair. She was a loan shark who preyed on people’s desires and tricked them into signing unfair deals. She spied on Ariel since the beginning of the movie, got to her at the point she was most vulnerable. And let’s not forget she took Ariel’s voice as payment when she knew damn well that Eric would not recognize her without it let alone be interested in her and thereby no kiss. And then she tells Ariel that she doesn’t need her voice to get a man. Fair deal my ass.
Real, she’s a total brat. thats WHY I love her. She’s unapologetically evil and knows how to get the upper hand so she can gain another “poor unfortunate soul”. That entire plot point is the foundation of an inside joke me and my cousin have around an Ursula plushie I have. As much as I love villains with sad backstories, they don’t all need one. (I know there was some play where Ursusla was Tristen’s sister but it’s never shown in the movie so I’m not really counting it). For some villains it’s more beneficial if there’s no explanation as to why they’re evil, other than wanting power and control.
@@Charlie_exe777 Exactly. She’s my fave. Every time I do karaoke my go to is poor unfortunate souls. Also, Where did you get the plushie? I low key want one now 🤣.
@@Elsibis it was a Bulid a bear I got at the mall. If you Google it you might be able to find one online bc I’m pretty sure there’s a website.
Also the Poor Unfortunate Souls karaoke is so real
Her entire motive was to sabotage Ariel so she can get to Trident, ppl forget the movies they're watching fr
@@Elsibis it’s a Bulid bear plushie I have. Idk where you could get one since idk where you live [and don’t tell me, didn’t mean for that to sound weird] but if you check the website I’m sure you could find a already made version.
Projection and an inability to grapple with their own personal flaws.
Edit: I also want to say, I think a lot of Azula defenders also misunderstand why she isn’t redeemed. They treat her mental breakdown like it’s her being punished for her actions and not a painful reminder that despite everything… she’s still a child. It’s tragic storytelling.
It’s like getting mad that Romeo and Juliet die at the end because their backstories are so sad.
Thank you.
For the plot its just better for her to not be redeemed, they explored this in the comics
@@jeffrianbanton5138 Not quite. If you are talking about the latest comic (Azula in the spirit temple), Azula in that comic is telling herself that she will never change, even though she already has. She started out vowing to make her teammates pay for leaving her. And when she finally finds them, she lets them go. She tries to rationalize this decision in her head, but the rationalisation is forced. She quite simply decided to avoid unnecessary violence, even though she's afraid to admit it
Yeah, its a tragedy. Even the Spirit Temple comic further breaks her down. She's a 14 year old girl raised by a militaristic megalomaniac in a might makes right society
@Birdboys I think the whole "projection and an inability to grapple with their own personal flaws" mentality is very very widespread amongst the masses, and I think that mindset influences storytelling, media, pop culture, and entertainment as a whole as fans, audiences, and critics are very very entitled and want everything to revolve around them in order for it to be good and if it doesnt revolve around their unchecked and flawed demands and overgeneralized realities they throw tantrums. They think that if a majority likes and agrees to something they believe, then the world should constantly cater to them and them only and forget about those not privileged to fit into the majority and the status quo shouldnt be questioned then if majority agrees with it or it caters to them.
And people who have influence on common opinions, especially in storytelling analyses have that "projection and an inability to grapple with their own personal flaws" mindset and cant admit they are wrong ever and dont want to admit they are wrong ever
Modern fans and audiences are ruining storytelling, when writers appeal to their overly demanded and unchecked double standards, when they find a villain or any character "likable", "relatable" , "sympathetic", "human", and/or "badass" , they justify and excuse their actions and overly root for and humanize that villain/character and excuse them, especially if that villain/character does awful things that they dont take personally and/or justify; on the flipside if the villain/character is "unlikable", "unrelatable" and they do awful things, especially when those awful things feel personal to the audience, then they overly demonize that character and refuse to understand them or give them complexity and dont excuse them and those same people excuse their precious "likable" villains that do similar and even worse things than the other villains they find unlikable
I’ve seen so many people say Janis is worse than Regina because of how she uses Cady and doesn’t get punished for her own meanness. However:
1. While it started that way, she came to genuinely see Cady as her friend over time. Why else would she have included Cady in that painting?
2. Her punishment was getting backstabbed by Cady right when her plan was about to succeed.
Though she is not backstabbed by Cady, but rather they grow distant(which is still painful, given how much Janis does value friendships and how few friends she actually has). Plus, she ultimately wins by the end(although the gym scene maybe should be interpreted in more cynical, "Heathers"-esque way, i.e. that demagogues always win).
And, the thought of using Cady for revenge popped up only after she met the Plastics. Janis apparently at first approached her just like that, with no ulterior motives.
@@romualdandrzejczak4093 While I get your angle, I consider it backstabbing because Janis’ plan wasn’t to replace the Plastics, it was to get rid of their hierarchy. So I’d say it’s a big betrayal for Janis when Cady decides to take Regina’s place instead of dismantling her clique. And you make a good point about their first meeting too! Janis and Damian have nothing to gain from Cady until Regina invites her to the Plastics’ table.
Plus, arguably the bigger issue is that Regina started it. I know that sounds childish, but Regina bullied Janis so badly that she became an outcast, and it's something that still affects her years after it happened. Janis' obsessive meanness towards Regina is completely understandable, even if she did take it too far (which she definitely did).
It was wrong to use Cady, and a lot of the stuff Janis' did came off as way too cruel (the weight gain stuff especially is difficult to watch, like omg), but the whole campaign of revenge would never have happened if Regina wasn't such a bully in the first place.
People forget there's a reason Janice and Regina were BFFs. They're both mean girls and arguably the only really mean ones.
Ariel didn't START collecting things from "up there" upon seeing Prince Eric, it propelled her desire. Triton loved his daughters. He feared humans because they were all seen as dangerous, Triton seeing that Ariel hadn't just visited the world "up there" but she became infatuated with a human caused his fear to manifest as fury! The Little Mermaid seemed to be about a young woman who dares to dream of living the life she believed she wanted, the Prince was a part of that, not the entire reason for it. Triton has valad concerns, but in the end he learned to let go and let his daughter live the life SHE wanted.
Basically, the typical father-rebellious daughter relationship, I think it was a common plot line around that time.
most point out watching the 3 one will really makes Tridents fury and worry over humans make more sense he saw his wife her mother get killed by humans trying to grab a object made by humans. she was also 16 not yet a woman
@@andreabanuelosavila2317 definitely, they even have a couple of jokes pointing to it: it's been awhile since I've seen The Little Mermaid, but I remember after Triton and Ariel have their 1st argument and Ariel swims away Sebastian the crab simply says to Triton: "teenagers," clearly leaning into the "she's a typical, rebellious teenager, what are you gonna do," narrative.
And too not destroy other people stuff great lesson
That’s true
i hate the “sharpay wasn’t a villain, she was just a theater kid” take so much. as a former theater kid, i can say that her personality very much checks out with some of the snooty theater kids i’ve encountered😂
The only "villainous" thing she ever did was get Ms. Darbus to change the time of the musical in HSM1 to be the same as Troy's game and Gabriella's competition. Is she an entitled, selfish diva, yes but she is not a villain as she hasn't done anything villain worthy.
@@DefyReality-ll2cgUmmm, she still interfered with things negatively which is villain behavior... Like her trying to get Troy good opportunities for college in the second movie just so he could like her.
@@mayaleelenghow is getting the boy you like good collage opportunity’s a bad thing?
@@kaity.b5554… it is a bad thing when the boy is a relationship… like she wasn’t giving Troy good opportunities in college just out of the goodness of her heart 💀
Throwing a fit when Kelsey defended her vision of the musical SHE wrote was pretty villainous too, honestly
it infuriates me when people say “sharpay wasn’t the villain, gabriella was!” like???? did we watch the same movies ☠️☠️☠️ you can prefer sharpay more, yes she has a personality and charisma, but to act like she was some innocent saint who just “wanted the best for troy” and make gabriella the bad guy for standing up for herself against sharpay’s attitude towards her (and her friends mind you) is ridiculous.
Exactly! I like Sharpay more than Gabriella, but I'm not gonna lie and say that Sharpay was never the true villain bc she literally was 💀
People really say, “Sharpay was setting up Troy for success and Gabriella was just somewhere crying” like Gabrielle doesn’t have that kind of money and influence to do all that. She was a 16 year old middle class kid, why would she be focusing her time and energy on her high school boyfriend’s future college plan during their summer vacation ?😭 how you gonna hate on Gabriella for being reasonable and lower class?
Honestly I think most Sharpay defenders are the spoiled theater kids who also couldn’t stand not getting the lead for once in their lives. I met several of them doing musicals growing up
this one annoys me THE MOST! I genuinely cannot think of a single situation where Gabriella did anything wrong. You can make the case for every other character: Sharpay, Chad, Taylor, Ryan, even Zeke...but NOT Gabriella, everyone else did her wrong in the first two movies
The only argument I can agree with is that it’s not so black and white in the first movie; that from Sharpay’s perspective, she’s put all this blood, sweat, and tears into the drama program, and performing is what she’s dedicated herself to, and all of a sudden this new girl and the basketball bro she likes DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT THE MUSICAL THAT MUCH but still come in and snag the leads.
I’d be a bit pissed too
Jade in Victorious is also one people excuse, but they more-so like to hate on Tori. But Jade is just a negative person to be around. Only time I relatively agree with Jade is when it comes to Beck, cuz he could try harder to not entertain other girls
And about Jade. She's emotionally abusive while Beck is also toxic. She's legitimately horrible to Tori and even tried to kill her one time. We love her a lot more than Sam but she's still a bad person that no one in their right mind should date or be friends with. However we see in her a lot more so than Sam that she has a little bit of goodness in her. Seeing how she cares so much about Cat and even the few times when she does genuinely care about Tori. She's a horrible person but unlike Sam, maybe she can CHANGE? With some therapy, getting some space from her family (because one look at her dad in that one episode and we can already see how she grew up and why she is the person she is, clearly she grew up in a very strict, repressive and loveless household and deliberately acts out and really goes "crazy" with her appearance and her personality because at home she can't really be herself, whoever that is), and with her dating a good person who only has eyes for her and never makes her feel insecure.....maybe a certain special girl who's name starts with a T...she could actually change and become a better person. With Sam there's just no fixing her.
Yeah people will drag Tori through the mud for all the bad thing she did but Glaze and call Jade and Icon for the worst stuff she's done and try to make Jade seem reasonable with the way she treats Tori.and everyone
Oh you think you can delete my first reply and it makes it any less true YT? You're wrong.
yes, people like Jade are fun to watch on TV, but nobody wants them in their life :)
18:49 the entire point of mean girls is that they’re all mean, Regina George is mean and you can’t justify that, they’re all mean (except for Karen)
Cady isn't mean, though. She was a victim of manipulation. The worst thing she did was write that lie about Ms. Norbury, but that was AFTER the plastics egged her on. She even took accountability for the entirety of the Burnbook and the abhorrent behavior of the other plastics (Regina and Gretchen specifically) even though she absolutely didn't need to.
@@rileysjonger4192 She is generally a passive character; in terms of plot agency, I'd say that the real protagonist is Janis.
@rileysjonger4192 she was still a mean girl even if she made up for it. Alot of the plots were her ideas and she enjoyed getting revenge. Even if she was manipulated and conditioned into doing these things( like asula was) she still did it. That's the point of the story on how anyone could be a mean girl. Even Karen ( who I'd say is the least mean girl) knew about the book and allowed her friends to bully others
@@nayasamuels8971 Well comparing a war criminal who was completely complicit in her crimes to a culturally unaware victim of manipulation is insane lol. The only similarity is their conditioning but Asula did unjustifiable crimes. Just because "Cady still did it" doesn't hold much weight considering what she did was not that bad and she was pressured into the role, i.e., when she made up that lie about Ms. Norbury. Being rude to someone who was rude first is not "being a mean girl" and she's allowed to enjoy the revenge considering how awful Regina George was not just to her, but to the entire school. Bullying other girls, tearing down your friends especially Gretchen, being homophobic, and cheating on your boyfriend are pretty inexcusable behaviors, and Cady was right to give Regina a taste of her own medicine. Not to mention how almost all of the plots, including the original idea to get back at Regina, were orchestrated by Janis. Wow, she came up with the idea to have Regina use foot cream instead of facial cream. So mean. Even as she was "in her mean girl" phase, she was genuinely never one. It's made clear in the movie that she does not adapt well to that role. Another example is how throughout her transition, she aimed to help Karen and Gretchen, whom she viewed to be her friends. Cady was a naive, sheltered girl who came from an entirely different continent and was manipulated and used by everyone around her and she had to take the blame for all of it. Did she make mistakes? Yes. But the only bad thing she really did was make up that lie, but she never downplayed it, and wasn't rlly responsible for its distribution. She was used as a scapegoat for everyone else's faults. Everyone can be a mean girl yes, but making mistakes is not the same as being a mean girl. As for Karen, I already attest to that, but I still acknowledge that she was the lesser of three evils. Janis and Regina particularly needed to be held accountable.
@@romualdandrzejczak4093 That's true. Janis orchestrated practically every event in the movie. It's weird that neither her nor Regina were truly held accountable for how they acted.
I don’t know why but “Azula… is a war criminal.” Made me burst into laughter.
She is
@@matityaloran9157she is. It still made me laugh
@@laural4259 I have met Azula fans who consider her an antagonist and not a villain and are mad that Iroh didn’t give her a chance, and want Azula to get redeemed
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674
I think Azula IS a villain yet it's also kinda true that Iroh dismissed her as a kid when he favored Zuko. Iroh def showed favoritism and he's long since given up on Azula even tho she's only 14 and Zuko is 16. It isn't mutually exclusive. She is a villain but Iroh still plays favorites with Zuko too
@@matityaloran9157she’s not, Iroh is. He was the general and led the army. Azula had the task to find Zuko.
This is why Big Jack Horner (Puss in Boots: The Last Wish) stands out for me. Dude has zero good qualities about him, but John Mulaney managed to make him quite entertaining to listen to, but still managed to remind us, "Yeah, this horrible dude needs to go.".
LOVE THAT MOVIE!
We need more of those villians
While I like bringing Jack up, it's worth noting that he's pretty much just played for comedy in a meta sense. You want an actual example of just being evil for the sake of it but played seriously, try Anton from No Country.
@@ci7210 We really do. Which is why I liked Deadpool and Wolverine, despite its flaws, at least Cassandra Nova didnt get redeemed and was diabolically evil
I feel like Jack Horner makes up 90% of that movie's fan content, and it's for a reason
I think it’s bc we see ourselves in them and make excuses of their behavior like we would do ourselves.
Either that or people want to be able to say they like these villains without being looked at like they're horrible for liking someone like that
And generally most evil people exist because of a reason. It doesn't give them the right to be bad but its sad to see how they turned out.
I think a lot of people just like to be contrarian, because a lot of these same people will do the complete opposite treatment for protagonists or other generally good (as in morally good characters) or at least decent characters and say, "This person was the REAL villain!" and use the few flaws they have as "proof" of how "evil" they truly are. It's like those people who say Sharpay was actually a "good person" while claiming that Troy was the "real villain" because he got everything handed to him despite not working as hard as Sharpay, and for being "ungrateful" towards Sharpay in the second movie because of her "helping" him with scholarship opportunities, even though it was obviously done so she could win him over. Troy had flaws, and he certainly was very privileged and had many opportunities handed to him despite not typically deserving it, but it never made sense to me that some people would call him a bad person. Being lucky shouldn't be enough for people to hate you. By that logic, we should hate Sharpay too, since she's rich and is even more privileged than even he is.
@@mynameisreallycool1 The worst offender to me is Beauty and the Beast. The amount of people I saw saying Belle is the villain because "She's mean and selfish ! How dare she not try to help Gaston !" And Gaston being the "Good guy" because "He only wanted to save the village !"
Yes, it's partly that. If you're having a REALLY bad day, you might feel anger and hatred welling up inside you, and you start to understand how villains must feel. Then you start thinking, "Well, I'M not a bad guy, but I feel the same as these villains, so that must mean the villains aren't bad either!"
There are other reasons, though - and they often have to do with the hero, not the villain. Perhaps the hero is a jerk much of the time, or is too perfect, or is subtly pushing a social or political agenda certain people find abhorrent. Sometimes you just default to sympathy for the villain for no other reason than because you hate the hero. You need SOME reason to watch.
This is one of my biggest pet peeves. A character will be an objectively horrible person & that’s what makes them great but people will downplay it. There’s even an example of a studio doing it. When Disney made the maleficent movies, they literally made her not evil even though the thing that made maleficent iconic was that she’s a horrible person. I never understand why people like a villain, but downplay their evilness. What else is there to like about them if not how horrible they are.
I semi-agree with you. Sometimes, the fact that they are horrible isn't the main thing to like about them. Sometimes, their redemption or the emotional weight of their battles can be enough.
Though I mostly have video game stories in mind
I don’t rlly agree with the “villains should be villains and have no backstory whatsoever!” Going around because yeah those villains could work really well in stories like with Jack Horner in the puss and boots movie, or even Ozai from ATLA because they didn’t need complexity’s and the role they serve is for the main character to defeat them and active peace or whatever. And it’s simple and it works. But you also would need to flesh out villains too.
Like Ozai, Azula is an antagonist that the main characters has to defeat. But it’s mostly Zuko who needs to do that. Their battle was tragic BECAUSE of the things we learn about their upbringing and their relationship with each other. And of their goals changing as a result of different views. It’s sad and the show doesn’t treat it like a victory like with Aang fighting Ozai.
That’s my opinion anyway. It’s not even that I enjoy the villains sometimes, because they do shitty things, but it makes an amazing story if done right.
Just accept that it's a completely different story that's only loosely based on the original! The new version of Maleficent is quite simply not the same character
@@2triedforthis830 Why not have a variety of villains being villains and no backstoory and vice versa, not every inconic and flashy villain needs that. Like I wish Joker and Bullseye were like that in the comics, instead of how they are in Joker 2019 and Daredevil Season 3. Not every villain needs to be like Joker and Bullseye in the comics , but Joker and Bullseye shouldnt have to cater to the simply overused sympathetic origin story villain trope
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674
Agreed. Sometimes villains are fascinating not cuz sympathetic but because they're evil yet charismatic and clever and they outsmart the hero every time. They earn their likable standing among fans despite having no sympathetic traits
I feel like a simple reason is that ppl feel the need to justify their behavior and/or make them seem more innocent. Bc it's easier to like someone who's "misunderstand" than to like and defend someone who's just a bad person 💀
Sometimes we need to just let villains be villains and not always try to make them a victim or 'good guy'!
@mayaleelang that mentality is very very widespread amongst Modern fans and audiences are incredibly insecure and self absorbed and cant admit it and are ruining storytelling, when writers appeal to their overly demanded and unchecked double standards. They also have huge condescending egos and never liked to be called out or can handle being wrong or challenged and need to be always right, morally superior, and have the world revolve around them and their hypocrisy and moral double standards
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 I wish I could like your comment a million times, dude.
@@hitoriwasright i got more to add if you want
@@hitoriwasright people/modern audiences cannot handle different human realities anymore and decide to trash anything that doesnt come off as likable/agreeable/relatable to them and they try to objectively infantalize stories with "unrelatable" and "unlikable" characters. Its only them and their experiences that matter and not others, especially if others are uncommon and unrelatable to most people.
we all as human beings are inherently bad so of course we would want others to understand. Because no man is good not one.
defending ursula is probably the most egregious entry in this lineup. how can you watch the little mermaid, watch the whole thing and listen to all the dialogue and analyze subtext, and UNIRONICALLY believe in the narrative of ursula not being a true villain? SHE'S PEAK STORYBOOK VILLAIN, SHE'S ALSO ENTERTAINING IS ALL 😭
also, this implies that smart business people cant be evil. lol.
I find Ariel childish, immature and stupid. I still know she's the hero lol. But yeah Ursula is just too fun and charismatic
@@l.n.3372Ursula definitely is
It’s absolutely hilarious that people say that Azula is a misunderstood villain for what I’m about to share.
I actually met her voice actress, Grey Delisle, at MoMoCon at an Avatar panel.
She herself said that she was absolutely tired of misunderstood villains.
She wanted villains who were just villains and that’s what she loved Azula for.
She even used Azula’s voice to prove her point actually.
It was amazing! EEP!!!!!🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩
@@andreasmeelie1889 th-cam.com/video/Kks5OyOoPjE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=yQwPQsMnAsg_CJIw
@@andreasmeelie1889 but apparently the avatar comics redeemed Azula and made her a misunderstood villain
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674
I've heard they didn't. Azula doesn't take the path of redemption supposedly in a recent comic
She did “kill” Aang. And burning down the Earth Kingdom was her idea
We love Grey>>>
I know some people do it because the thought of liking a villain character means you condone their actions.
I’ve also seen the opposite where they justify the antagonist by criticizing the hero in some way. An example would be justifying Vidia’s bullying of Tinkerbell cause she was annoying in the Tinkerbell movie.
I’m guilty of that when the “ hero” does hypocritical actions but gets rewarded but people do act like they have to hate on to like the other when you can like both. You can point out characters flaws and still like them.
To be fair Tinkerbell is a villain herself, she did try to kill Wendy.
@rosennacht7654 I think many other people also do it when they empathize or relate to a villain not just cause of insecurity but also they legitimately think those villains are justified and/or think deserved to be excused just cause they were sympathetic/nuanced/human
@@lstarsabb in the barry fan base Sally gets so much more demonization, and Fuches gets overly humanized He’s another example of a character fans make excuses for and needed redeemed.
I think fans sometimes see their favorite characters as reflections ot themselves. Aka:
I like X. Thus X can't be bad or it reflects poorly on me. And I'm obviously not bad. So I can't like bad things. I like X. So X must be hero and not villain
People often forget that as the audience, we can like how a character is written even if we can't sympathize or identify with them in real life. It annoys me how Hollywood is doing all this work to make villains sympathetic. Scar, for example, existing just to be a dark reflection of Simba ("I'm the king, I can do whatever I please." "I thought a king can do whatever he wants") already gives him plenty of depth. That's something the Disney remakes fail to understand, which is why I have such a disdain for them.
@tjsmith5276 Modern fans and audiences, say that every single villain needs to have a understandable, rational, “depth” , layers, complexity, and believable motives, be sympathetic and complex and ambiguous, and redeemable in order to be realistic, and a compelling character/villain, otherwise according to people who have these demands, and in every single story wjere their expectations aren’t met and a villain is pure evil and irredeemable, they say that those villains are badly and terribly written, generic, boring, one dimensional, bland, uninteresting, unrealistic, and cartoonish/childish; , and according to them, every single character needs to be three dimensional in order to be good, interesting, “human”, “realistic”, compelling, redeemable, ambiguous, and the only way to be accessible and interesting for “mature adults”.
This is what I have observed amongst modern audiences and film nerds and today’s generation. It is soooo frustrating when creatives do cater to these people (from what I have seen or listen to their unchecked and irrational demand’s sometimes rhat are constantly spoonfed. They need villains to constantly be "relatable and sympathetic" in order to engage with a character and if a character doesnt have either of those then they refuse to engage with those characters and when they engage with characters that are "relatable and sympathetic" they take them so personally to the point they need their demands to be spoonfed with how the story treats the relatable or sympathetic characters in order for it to be objectively well written in their eyes
They think that if a majority likes and agrees to something they believe, then the world should constantly cater to them and them only and forget about those not privileged to fit into the majority and the status quo shouldnt be questioned then if majority agrees with it or it caters to them.
Ikr?! People who say Ursula was just a businesswoman haven't watched the movie! She literally cheates!
Yeah, she basically made a living by scamming merfolk. All the homunculi in her cave…
You misspelled “she” with “he” sir, since Ursula is a woman, but that’s just a simple little mistake.
@@heatherallerdice-gerow5966 oh, my mistake
It’s funny how the same people who make excuses for villains are also the type to overanalyse the heroes almost like their rooting and sympathising with the local terrorist / murderer while treating the guy trying to do good like shit and say they are actually the bad guy for having some flaws but still trying to do good
Hatoful boyfriend fans be like:
@dirammy this is The Peoples Joker and Batman villain fans in a nutshell
but then why are main characters or protagonists who are realistically flawed & make mistakes, still hated??
Liking the protagonist isnt “cool” i guess.
Because main characters mistakes and flaws are never really addressed or they usually never get real consequences , they usually just justify it or breeze past it , But the villains of the story always do , I think that’s part of the reason so many ppl prefer the mean or Villan character
My complexe middle aged boyscots are beloved becuase while they are the good guys yet but people love them becuase they are fun to hang out with... So yeah why makes your chacters worth liking and not hating.
@@playboibunny4909 i get that. but then people are still apologetic over the antagonists, as if they dont seem to want the character(s) to be held accountable. so while im sure thats part of it, this isnt always the case. i mostly agree with the 1st reply to my comment so far, that ppl think its "cooler" to prefer the antagonist over the protagonist. tbh there are actually plenty of protagonists who do face consequences for their mistakes, but even when that does happen, people still find things to complain about them. so yea, i think most of the time people just love the antagonist because they think its cool, or theyre conventionally attractive or something - not always because someone thinks theyre actually an interesting & valuable character, which yea there are a lot of villains like that, but some of them are just so grotesque & cruel without any redeeming qualities whatsoever, and yet people still love them. thats my take so far, ig.
Yep, people make excuses for villains because we make excuses for ourselves. If we hold villains completely accountable for their actions, then we might remember that we need to hold ourselves accountable. A history of tragedy doesn't mean you don't still have to choose to do the right thing.
@macdri because apparently certain villains not being held accountable is considered objectively good storytelling for modern fans and they want villains to win and get away
You only get a redemption arc if the character makes a change in their life to really make a difference. Some examples include Garmadon, Darth Vader, Ventress, Zuko, Macaque, and Crosshair. These villains have done atrocious actions and killed so many people, yet they were willing to make things right in the end and make amends to those who they hurt. If a villain doesn’t do anything like that and wanting to help others, then they’re just villains with trauma.
Sorry but Vader doesn't count at all. He doesn't make any amends to anyone he hurt, save for his own son Luke.
He makes no amends to Leia for allowing her planet to be destroyed, for example. Leia likely never forgave him and she had the right to never forgive her father.
Vader is an example who is redeemed thru his own death to save his son. Not because he truly makes amends for the crimes he committed
I wouldn't count Vader but all the rest I definitely agree
Here we have tv trops take in Azula under Freudian exuse is no exuse: Despite having clear psychological issues stemming from a lack of family love in Season 3, Azula isn't let off the hook for her actions. Mai and Ty Lee easily turn on her despite hearing her Freudian Excuse at Ember Island because they do not really see her as a friend in need, and Uncle Iroh flat out states she's crazy and needs to go down. This all reaches to a pinnacle in Azula in the Spirit Temple where the dream spirit declares Azula to be a monster not because of how others have treated her, but because of her refusal to accept responsibility or seek redemption.
yet when she had the opportunity to take revenge she let them go........why leave out that part............
“But azula deserves a redemption arc-“ ok so what if she does? She didn’t GET a redemption arc in the show therefore she is a villain!! Yes she’s a child and she’s traumatised and she’s complex but she’s still a villain and I find that really cool
People act like if a character deserves a redemption arc, that means they’ll get one. Zuko and Azula are meant to reflect to two different types of children that come from abusive families based on favoritism from the parent. Giving every single villain a redemption arc just because they “deserve” it (I put air quotes bcs some of them really don’t) takes away from how special and empowering redemption arcs actually can be if every character could get one just because they’re sympathetic or because the audience doesn’t want them to be evil.
@@magikphoenix140 EXACTLY!!!
The thing is... When people say a character deserves a redemption arc, they don't mean that literally. They just mean they want that character to become happy and mentally healthy in their own headcanon
@@Shashu_the_little_Voidling yeah I totally get that! I do think azula deserves to heal but I think some people take that to mean that she’s not a bad person and a literal murderer
Azula is not even very traumatised.
In Ariel's defense, Eric would not have been able to save her from being zapped by Ursula if Ariel had not saved HIM from drowning. He was just evening things up.
In a way the two and up saving each other throughout the film
Personally I thinks its more of a case of people hating the protaganist or relating to the villains more. People who defend Ursula are those that think its ok to rip off or steal from people just because they might have more than them. The kind of people who go on dates, bring their best friend, and order the most expensive thing on the menu. People who defend Azula are the types that write hate rants and revenge porn about getting powers and making everyone who's ever pissed them off pay. Sharpay/Regina is just the means girls who see themselves and feel the need to create excuses even when they can see how much of an ass they are. But that's just me playing the armchair psychologist.
@C0ldlron People have weird double standards where they demonize some characters but justify and humanize and root for other characters who do similar and/or worse things
i think its wrong to say that the other characters in Mean Girls were only mean as a reaction to Regina. The movie clearly established that everyone was just kinda shitty, they did make Regina the most objectionable though.
Its easier for people to drown in their dark side rather than shine in their good side. Most people aren't as kind, friendly or honorable as the heroes tend to be. We resonate more with villains because everyone has flaws and unless your egotistical or go out of your way more than normal people often don't consider themselves as good as the heroes. The heroes are heroes because they are inspirational and we should want to be like them.
However us sharing stuff with the villains make us sympathise with them especially if we are given their sad backstory. Then we make excuses because we are similar to them or can see where they went wrong. We wouldn't want anyone to give up on our inherent goodness so we don't give up on others. This is also the reason people are harsher when heroes mess up , we feel betrayed because we made them to be heroes in our minds. Kind of like when you find out your fav celebrity is a horrible person, you feel betrayed and disappointed
I never resonate with villains never had always were the heroes. I mean I understand why villains does those stuff but justice their actions because they had trauma. Seriously? Some of us had trauma don’t killing people because of it
@@xxxnarurto5747literally
@Markus2E516 people only want villains to be nuanced and sympathetic and tend to resonate more with the villains when it makes them comfortable and excuse them just cause of sympathy when it aligns with their view and when they relate to them they justify them and excuse them and treat them as a overtly humanized gary stu
@@xxxnarurto5747 what op is saying is going to be the case for the penguin show that just came out on Max related to The Batman (2022) and people will root for and justify Oz/The Penguin
To be really fair to the live action Little Mermaid, Ursula being Triton’s sister wasn’t something that was pulled from thin air. It was a scrapped idea that they decided to use.
But yeah, Ursula is really fun but she sucks! She’s 100% a villain.
She’s definitely a villain
"Ursula being Triton’s sister wasn’t something that was pulled from thin air. It was a scrapped idea that they decided to use."
It's also a plausible explanation for why she's still alive at the start of the movie.
Sam Puckett in iCarly isn't really one fans excuse, but someone I feel a combination of the writers and fans brush under the rug. But she literally physically and emotionally abused Freddie, like he should NOT have dated her. I hated how when Mrs. Benson didn't want the two dating, everyone made her seem like she was in the wrong (even Gibby eventually), Sam got way too many chances than she deserved
Yes. I will keep saying until the cows come home: SEDDIE SHIPPERS LITERALLY HAVE SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THEIR BRAINS.
omg frrrrrrrrr
Have two thing too say. 1. Also, another thing can sympathize with a villain but, still disagree with there action. For example I sympathize with Wanda from WandaVision however I still recognize what she did was wrong.
2. Pure evil character can still be a complex character. For example Screwtape is a pure evil however he one of best and interesting protagonist I have read. A complex character does no mean sympathetic just means have lares too personality.
There's always Claude Frollo coming to mind when people speak that "villains must be sympathetic to be complex"
It's my favourite villain of all times. Not because he's sympathetic, but because he's so complex regardless of wheter I relate to him or think he had good points. He has none of those. He's a lustful hypocrite abusing his powers and the only thing that can stop him is his own fear of god's judgement.
@@Chaki21 Book version of Frollo IS sympathetic, though... He is more of a tragic anti-hero(by contrast, Phoebus in the book is a sex-obsessed, boorish jerk).
@@Chaki21 Disney's Frollo is closer to inspector Javert(if we stick to Hugo); even then, Javert is deep down a decent guy, who persecutes Valjean only because of a certain mindset.
@@romualdandrzejczak4093 hmm, haven't finished the novel but from where I am it seems like there's no real villain (though Frollo barely did anything yet and I haven't seen Phoebus)
@@romualdandrzejczak4093 yeah huh sorry I haven't read Hugo other then Hunchback lmao, bit I'm gonna guess it's from les misérables ?
i 100% blame matpat for the way people excuse sharpay's actions btw
@@gaslightgatekeepgirlboss6321 I actually thought this before matpat did a video and when you look at the film objectively it’s hard to say Sharpay is the villain with what the friends did: tricking Troy, showing he clip to Gabriela, braking her heart, the whole “stick to the stuff you know” song, like who says to their friends don’t try something new because I think you are only allowed to do one thing.
I wouldn't say she's the main villain of the movie, but nonetheless she is a villain. The first time she had real competition she went out of her way to sabotage them. And people say "she was just dedicated to her work".
Honesty I hate it when people do this. In movies, videogames, or even books there are people who will make excuses for the villain, and try to make the protag, or often the people who were victims of the villain, the perpetrator.
It's literally textbook victim blaming and I hate itnso much. Sometimes they just make up stuff so the villain is more simpathetic, which in turn makes it worse. You see this with maleficant, and cruella. A villain who cursed a 16 year old when they were a baby, and a woman who wanted to *skin puppies.*
And they try to make them "more complex" for what? Not every villain needs to be complex or sympathetic.
@AngelCat748 this going to be the case for the penguin show that just came out on Max related to The Batman (2022) and people will root for and justify Oz/The Penguin
th-cam.com/video/TiwSRGfhWio/w-d-xo.htmlsi=oEDxs2d63k2k9ILv
^^also alot of what you said and pointed out is further showcased in the comment section here with people “relating to” and excusing Poison Ivy just because she cares about plants and social justice and is nice to Harley Quinn and loves her, which is also why especially in the comics DC has “redeemed her” and made her into an anti hero.
And also fans excusing Ivy in both Batman TAS and the comics
I hate how people acknowledge that Ariel is young, but still say there’s no way Ursula could’ve taken advantage of her like they would acknowledge that she’s a young naïve girl and then still make it seem like she knew fully what she was getting into !! Also, I feel like it’s so weird to call a young lady girl a whore because she’s a helpless romantic!! And is just curious about land life
It almost like they just answer their own question in their complaint the reason why Ariel makes a deal with Ursula is because she’s a young naïve girl
The problem with this is that Ariel is 15 I think. Or 16. We get she's young and naive and immature. But as such we should also know she isn't an adult and thus shouldn't be selling her voice to be with a man she barely knows.
To acknowledge she was taken advantage of also means she isn't old enough to make such a serious decision as abandoning her entire homeland for a boy she never even spoke with.
@@l.n.3372 Eric was more so just kind of a bonus for her. She also just wanted to see the human world!!! Yes she also wanted love but seeing the human world was her biggest want in life
@elenaporras3145
I'm gonna say you're being a little ... facetious here. She didn't do any of that to explore the world. She did it cuz of a boy/man. She did it to be with Eric, whom she had never even spoken to once before trading away her life for the chance to date him.
She's willing to abandon her voice and family for a man she'd spied on briefly and never had a single conversation with.
@@l.n.3372 yeah you’re kind of right. I am a little bit fixated on this I guess lol but I truly don’t think Eric was the only reason she wanted to be on land considering the whole like song she had didn’t have any lyric about Eric so I think like one of her main goals was to be on land but I’m not like denying that she loved Eric also I just wanted add here then I’m not like mad at you or anything I’m very fast at replying and I like to rant but am not mad
I'm so sick of people making excuses for Ursula it's no wonder why people are still falling for scams and being idiots.
You can like a villain, understand them but not justify their actions because that's a whole different thing which most people tends to do
I've heard the same argument for Hades as Ursula, just predatory businessman that preyed on people's insecurities. I'd say one of my fav villians though is Team Rocket, they try to steal a kid's pikachu for decades but are so comedic while doing it. Ofc I don't condone their actions but in storytelling you can separate the story from real life (though a lot of impressionable and young ppl confuse the two, ik regina influenced a whole generation of bratty teenage girls) and a story is nothing without conflict, there'd be no story.
Thank you for explaining why Sharpay and Ursala were both in the wrong. However, I have to disagree with you about Thanos. That villain was pure evil. He killed billions of innocents just because he didn’t think the universe held enough resources for everyone. He played god and didn’t care who he hurt to accomplish his goal. He was deranged and didn’t deserve to live.
He also tried to destroy the surviving half of the Universe
@@angelwatcher374 I think thanks was kinda dumb, like the plan to have a place that is sustainable is good but killing half the population, then destroying the stones is dumb because in like 100 years the population would double and they would have the same problem
Yeah, Bruce Banner spells it out when he calls Thanos a cruel tyrant who takes what he wants. Also, Thanos is literally known as "The Mad Titan" in-universe.
Thank you for bringing honesty back to fandom discourse.
Yasss
I like to say, when it comes to sympathetic villains (if they are sympathetic), their actions should be understandable, not justified. If they’re justified, then they’re not a villain.
Exactly I never really understand why people are justified villains yes what they do is wrong or messed up in many case but that shouldn’t be justified their actions because what they been through 😅🤦♀
@@xxxnarurto5747 modern fans and audiences tend to get sympathizing and justifying confused together or sympathize with a villain so much that they justify them if that villain is given humanity and relatability
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 true
My opinion is that people don't value acknowledgement of wrongdoing in stories often anymore. I remember when that sometimes was the focus of entire stories (A Christmas Carole). But recently that plot device is either seen as overused (boring) or an outright betrayal of the character (weakness). Whereas when characters stick unapologetically to their bad behavior, they are deemed strong and capable and even heroic. Again just my opinion.
@kasdnkol it’s happening right now with the The Boys/Gen V fanbase when it comes to characters like Sam Riordan and Cate Dunalp.
I think people especially generation Z, don’t acknowledge wrong doing when they are biased towards characters with humanity or who save cats and that character didnt do anything “that bad”
To me, even if a character has a tragic past or the like, that rarely excuses any wrong actions they commit
So many people think Azula alway had it just as hard as Zuko, but no, it’s not 100% true. The point that the show made was that she was more favored than Zuko. Zuko was the one who got physically and mentally abused, for not falling in line. Azula However was already more sadistic and treated everyone terribly, she even smiles when she sees Zuko get hurt by his father (look at her reaction to when her dad burns Zuko in the face, she smiles at it) she enjoys seeing others in pain and being controlled under her, (her “friends” for example) and think she’s owed everything because that’s what she’s always been given in trade for being a excellent fire bender: everything.
She’s also very self aware of her own actions and how they are harmful, hence the “my mother thought I was a monster…I mean she was right” scene. Zuko NEEDED Iroh and others to recognize his own actions and how pointless and harmful they were, he’s not as self aware (nonetheless his actions were still wrong) but Azula is aware.
This is true
Ariel is just a girl, literally, a teenager who falls in love with a guy and that becomes the reason for her to go on earth; she’s misunderstood by her father and wants to break the rules he set (like most teenagers do); also, side note: no one said she married Eric at 16, there’s a cut from the moment they met again and their wedding (like with Cinderella)
with Sharpay, even though there are some moments when we audience empathise with her, she’s still the main antagonist; she’s not evil, she just wants to be the center of attention, and if that means throwing other people under the bus, she’ll do it; she’s a funny villain though, one we love to hate and to see defeated, but also to get some sweet moments (like befriending the wildcats or genuinely wanting Troy to sing with her)
Regina was the head of the mean girls pyramid, it’s “her” fault if Janis manipulated Cady to make her destroy the plastics; all three got punished in some way, and yes, Janis and Cady become meaner than her, but that doesn’t excuse her for bullying everyone for years
People defend villains for damaging people but then they trow trash at the protagonists for breaking a pencil or some stupid sh.
They don’t see heroes or protagonists as human beings basically wanting them to be like Jesus completely selfless to the their own detriment like Spiderman but unfortunately for them as much as I love Peter no one in real life is that selfless, while also making excuses for villains and antagonists because society has a hard on for bad ppl.
@@dirammy exactly.
@@dirammy Its funny as Daredevil's flaws are glossed over (how he treated Melvin Potter in Season 3) because Daredevil is "complex" but Carmy in The Bear Season 3 is considered a bad character because he isnt jesus and is severely flawed
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 They like being inconsistent with their beliefs, these are the same ppl who don’t like eren jaeger like what happened to the other genocidal maniacs you defended
@@dirammyits funny as they demand spider-man be human and relatable but refuse to see characters as flawed and human simultaneously
Boiling down Azula's character (and her defense?) to "Daddy Issues" is actually crazy ngl
Even on Victorious... Jade is horrible but people keep making excuses for her. I even know people like that in real life.
9:49 I remember a quote from Nicque Marina (a pretty funny tiktok/youtuber). She basically said that trauma happens, and you can be a hero or a villain based on how you respond to said trauma.
Fantastic video! I see this all the time. People relate to a certain villain or antagonist and feel cognitive dissonance about relating to the villain so they discount bad behavior or create a rationale for the bad behavior so they don't have to question their own moral “goodness”.
But as a dark romance lover, I love a bad guy.
@lajourdanne I dont think it is just and only cognitive dissonance about relating to the villain but in today's society these same people root for villains all the time now and legitimately think they are justified and didnt do much wrong and think those villains should legitimately be excused and exempt, especially if those villains are humanized or come from a sympathetic/understandable standpoint
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 also very true! I think I was overly optimistic about what proportion of people don't actually think the villains did nothing wrong. But you're definitely right.
@@lajourdanne people don’t take villains seriously or justify than when they don’t do anything “that bad”.
Azula's character was treated the way she was supposed to be. Aang vs Ozai's fight was a fight of good and evil, but Zuko vs Azula's was a tragic but necessary one. It shouldn't have had to end the way it did, they should've been very close brother & sister in a healthy family dynamic...but unfortunately that's not what happened. Azula was too far to truly be redeemed, she's manipulative, a liar, and doesn't play fair (even in her fight with Zuko, she tried to play dirty and attack Katara with lightning...Azula plays dirty and lacks honor, her behavior has consequences). And the ending of her crying shows that it's an unfortunate circumstance since she is just a child. And Katara and Zuko don't see it as a victory, they feel bad for her, but Azula had to lose it all
Yes, she had to lose it all, just like Zuko did. People who are in their position need to lose everything they have before they can finally start to re-evaluate their world view. Zuko had experiences that made him see how the fire nation affects other lives. Azula did not. They really are not that different, Azula is simply further behind him on the path
I’m so tired of people saying azula was too far to be redeemed when there’s villains who are just as bad as her or even worse who got redemption arcs, also she is a CHILD. Not to mention, zuko saw the other side, azula didn’t. Azula was always expected to be evil and had no reason to rebel against it, doesn’t mean she has no chance of being redeemed
@@Angelina-yp2sn yeah I agree but I feel like it’s just a lot for her to unpack and I don’t really think she’s willing to do the work for it, she’s so used to being strategic and manipulative, that redemption just isn’t really in the cards for her. I think she had to lose it all in order for her to truly know she has been living very wrong and needs to find a new way. I always felt like Aang would’ve been a great person for Azula to learn from, since he has been so strong on his morals, he could be Azula’s Iroh. But he has lots of responsibilities and likes Katara so idk if he’s have the time
@@growingupwithdisney I have met Azula fans who consider her an antagonist and not a villain and are mad that Iroh didn’t give her a chance, and want Azula to get redeemed
All these excuses for villains reminds me of the excuses many teachers make for pupils who are insufferable. During my school days certain insufferable classmates often got a slap on the wrist, or less, because teachers made lame excuses. This is especially true if the insufferable classmate is a nerd.
@Drldaho it’s also similar to bully dynamics, and why people excuse bullying from their own peers
I think it’s a media literacy thing. “The curtains are just blue” mentality has scrambled everyone’s brains
this going to be the case for the penguin show that just came out on Max related to The Batman (2022) and people will root for and justify Oz/The Penguin
its mentioned in the vid but i always found the ursula revisionism takes of her "evilness" dumb due to her purposely sabotaging ariel near the end once she gets close to succeeding 💀
Glad you brought up how Ozai could be considered a victim of parental abuse just like people view Azula. I feel like that argument can stretch back even further, to Azulon as well if Sozin was an abusive parent to him.
Azula is the perfect example of what would happen if we gave 14 year old edgelords real power
Except she has no real power. Her power (not skill) is Ozai's and she basically doesn't even act in her own stead. She is nothing more than his right arm and her biggest desire is for him to acknowledge her
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219thats still a lot of power though? she has a lot of effect over other peoples lives, and she wastes no time ruining them if she sees fit.
@somerandomnon-importantper3219
That's not true at all. Azula is given hella free reign by daddy. Azula is a brilliant villain BECAUSE of what she accomplished. Sure she does it in the name of her homeland but she makes plans, is clever, executes her plans, and thus her actions drive the plot more than any other ATLA villain.
Her capture of Ba Sing Se is entirely of her own accord. She heard about the eclipse plot and she sneakily subverts it too.
@@l.n.3372 Yes, but does she really do it for herself? Or is she just desperately seeking approval from a father who sees her as a tool and doesn't feel any need to praise her?
Because if it really was the former, being rejected by Ozai in the finale would not have broken her that badly
@somerandomnon-importantper3219
I think it's quite demeaning that you (not you in particular, you as a general term) dismiss Azula as doing or earning nothing for any purpose beyond daddy's approval tho. It's not mutually exclusive.
She wants daddy's approval. She is heartbroken that she doesn't have mommy's approval either. Yet she is still capable of executing complex plans with skill and ability because she's a great villain who happens to do bad things very well.
Hell she DOES receive daddy's approval a number of times. Ozai praised her in front of Azulon in flashback. Ozai says her plan is good during a war meeting. You're acting like she NEVER received any approval from daddy when it's frankly untrue. Azula breakdown at the end is partially cuz of Ozai but I'd argue it's primarily cuz of Ursa.
14:37 Thank YOU!🙏🏾👏🏾
And I agree with everything you said in this video. Villains are created for storytelling. We can like them without trying make excuses for their actions. I like the 3 Descendants films, and I still think the characters actions were wrong even if they had their reasons.
Blair waldorf stans should watch this
The way I had to argue with a friend that kept saying not only was it wrong to call Jason Voorhe a villain but also tried to proprose that Jason was the “victim”, all just because of his tragic history and him not having as solid of a thought process given him being basically undead and just trying to keep the camp isolated.
The whole fucking point is that doesnt at all justify him in killing innocent fucking people, its LITERALLY evil to kill innocent people no matter what and there is nothing at all that can make Jason the “victim” when he’s chopping random people’s heads off with a machete when they literally didnt do shit to him.
Its gotten so bad to where they cant comprehend a villain does something besides the most paper-thin “mwahahah Im doing evil things just because I like being evil” and they then try to justify their actions or remove accountability and make a pity party for them.
@NovemberKnights Ironically you can apply a similar argument with Freddy if you consider his backstory of being with an abusive foster Father until he murdered him among other things. One can say he was a "victim" to, but that doesn't change the fact he was still a child murdering serial killer long before he got his dream powers. I will say that Freddy is still more evil then Jason especially since he enjoys tormenting people for fun, but Jason is still an evil murderer regardless if he enjoys it or not.
@NovemberKnights THANKKK YOUUU!!!
And ntm, this friend ALSO claimed Jason's mother from the first Friday 13th wasn't the villain and somehow completely justified when the fucking victims in the first movie didn't even have shit to do with what happened to Jason.
Like are you fucking kidding me???
I’ve seen people make similar comments and excuses for villains like the evil queen from Snow White, Lady Tremaine from Cinderella, Maleficent, Scar, Jafar, Gaston, Yzma, and (say what you will about Wish) Magnifico even without live action remakes or reimaginings
There are even whole fanfics based on excuses or sympathy made for Voldemort or other
I mean we do it in real life all the time. Everyone does it. Who hasn't tried justifying something bad their family or friends did? Or a celebrity? Or the military, the police, large companies, teachers, parents, children, countries, religions, genders etc. Its human to empathize with people we have some connection with, regardless of what they did or who they are. We're kinda dumb like that. Its why every justice system in the world constantly fails at delivering actual justice.
And thats the sucky part. Ppl are so obsessed with trying to root for the bad guy because they want to seem “smarter” when theyre not and theyre straight up gaslighting and painting this idea that theliteral villain in a real-life situation is a victim JUST BECUASE of the fact that theyre being held accountable for their actions. All while completely downplaying the ones they acted against (the literal actual victims) and what they were subjected to (and the struggles they went through to even speak out about what happened).
Right have you seen the fangirls and fanboys of some criminals like Ted Bundy or other „good looking“ guys who excuse their crimes
The only difference is that they don’t have any connection and just go for the looks
I mean I kind disagree with you 100 percent because honestly I don’t do that if you say I do than you actually know me 🥰 @GlaDos321. Only normal people who actually does that
@@donavondavis1550 is sucky part? Because I don’t even do in fact I can’t to be honest I can only see good in bad people. Which isn’t normal
@@donavondavis1550 People have weird double standards where they demonize some characters but justify and humanize and root for other characters who do similar and/or worse things
I don’t even see why people always called Iroh a war criminal. That’s a different thing than just participating in a war. By our standards, we can probably call Azula a war criminal though.
I think it’s reasonable to assume that she acts in an official capacity by virtue of being a Fire Nation Princess when she surrenders to the Avatar (who can reasonably be considered an official among the enemy forces) but attacks Iroh anyway, she commits a war crime.
I do think that Azula gets a free pass from a lot of people because she’s literally a 14 year old child. They see her potential to change and care more about that hope more than they care about what she did.
Iroh is seen as a war criminal because of the "I'd love to show you Ba Sing Se if we don't burn it down to the ground first" quote
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219
He was clearly joking
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219 That’s true but let’s be for real; burning a city down surely can’t be a war crime in a world where benders exist. That’s just a natural ability born to firebenders. Earthbenders could literally launch giant boulders into or onto anyone they fight. If your city is on an island, waterbenders could rock up on a full moon and cause an unnatural disaster.
The other side of that is that Iroh does not in fact burn Ba Sing Se to the ground lol
@@RiseeRee I mean, war-crimes are by their definition tailored to our own, real world and the way we real life humans actually wage war, so using the term in fiction is pretty much meaningless anyway if you ask me.
The thing that I think needs to be pointed out is that Azula conquered Ba Sing Se without incurring one single casualty except the Avatar himself. People love to call her sadistic when she is quite literally the most efficient and result oriented person in the show. She gloats in her victories, but she never does more damage than needed
@@somerandomnon-importantper3219 He was still helping his colonial empire to expand and take over the world. Even if he didn't do anything to brutal during the siege he was still a operator in the war machine, and didn't realize this until his son got killed in battle. Which I imagine why he didn't try to fight for the throne when he certainly could've fought against Ozai for it.
I dont think people are saying that what Azula did was justified, it's just understandable. What you described when talking about her is exactly what a complex villain SHOULD be. Shes sympathetic but still a clear villain. You can imagine a world where things couldve turned out different for her and thats sad
I’m glad we’re holding villains accountable for their actions
Same
Honestly, in my opinion as someone who is in the fandom sphere, some (loud and obnoxious) people really like to use the "if you like x character, that means you condone their actions and that makes you a terrible person IRL" argument. That makes certain fans get really defensive of their faves, and they start searching for excuses to justify/redeem the actions of said fave. The two groups end up fighting over the character and which interpretation is 'The Correct One (tm)'.
As a fandom dweller, this whole back and forth creates such a toxic and agressive environment. I actually started to avoid interacting with others on Twitter and TikTok, because it seems like everything in these platforms just end in conflict. I tend to stick to Tumblr now. Many people left to join Twitter, the tumblerinas that stayed tend to be pretty chill. Early/mid 2010s Tumblr and Tumblr now have VERY different crowds. It's less people to interact with, but interactions in general are a lot more pleasant.
TL,DR: toxic fans and instigating fights, and those that are defensive of their problematic faves try to pull excuses out of their ass to justify why they like them.
@LivPC to be fare certain fanbases actually do condone/justify/excuse/downplay actions of various characters
Because we want people to make excuses for us being our worst selves.
It's like people feel bad for enjoying a villain character, so they make up excuses for it or something
I believe Scream movie explained it best about villains being more scarier when there is no motive, even if there is one doesn't mean what the villain is doing is justified. Some people are just simply evil
I was thinking about writing a TV show where the protagonist meets two twin brothers. One twin is pure of heart and always wants to do the right thing. The other twin is just plain evil. He does so, so many horrible, disgusting things all throughout the show, and when the first twin angrily confronts his brother about those evil things and demands to know why he did it, he simply takes a bite of a chicken sandwich while casually saying that he did it for “no reason” and then takes a sip from his soda. His motive is never even revealed. In fact, it’s not even sure if he HAS a motive in the first place.
I don't think your theory about the Hays code really holds much water. The code was abandoned in 1968 and film-makers immediately started making movies with questionable protagonists and sympathetic antagonists: Easy Rider, a movie about drug dealer bikers, came out in 1969, The Godfather came out in 1972 and Taxi Driver in 1976, so I don't think we're only be feeling the effects of this now. Also books and plays have always been able to get away with having these types of characters and they were much more popular forms of media for a longer time.
Funny thing, just as I was watching this video another video popped up in my notifications about Thanos was right 😂
Also, I found a phrase that kinda fits why people make excuses for villains...the positivity trap-a phenomenon where people tend to become excessively focused on maintaining a positive outlook, often at the expense of acknowledging or addressing negative emotions and experiences. By rationalizing or justifying the actions of a villainous character, people succumb to a cognitive bias that seeks to find positive attributes or reasons for negative behavior.
This phenomenon can be attributed to a desire to maintain harmony, avoid conflict, or hold onto optimistic beliefs about human nature. However, by overlooking or downplaying the harmful actions of a villain, folks risk undermining accountability, perpetuating harmful behavior, and distorting the moral complexity of the narrative. This shift in focus takes away from the harm they've inflicted upon others.
Additionally, the positivity trap can hinder critical thinking and moral judgment by prioritizing perceived good intentions over actual consequences.
Ultimately, making excuses for villains not only enables unethical behavior but also perpetuates a dangerous myth that villains can be redeemed or justified through sympathetic narratives. Let's all do better whether that be in fiction or nonfiction (reality).
@rahbeeuh modern fans treat Poison Ivy and Kingpin the same way
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 is this an agreement? Tryna figure out how I should take your comment. I'm not familiar with how fans treat Kingpin but I know some fans make excuses for Poison Ivy
@@rahbeeuh I’m just adding on to what you said
@@rahbeeuh people root kingpin a lot, and justify him
If you make "tragic backstories", they're no longer villains, just victims. It helps perpetuate the blameless society, where everyone is a victim, no one is the villain, and the dreaded "someone else" is always to blame.
@droth1031 That sounds very problematic on all sorts of levels and the modern gen z fans that keep endorsing that archetype where the only humanize things that are close to them and project and demonize things far away from them
People keep wanting to make themselves and what they are emotionally attached to not the problem and all the things they have no emotional connection to as the problem
It kinda applies to real life, too, especially if you take the "Truth In Television" trope into consideration.
I'd go in further detail, but I wouldn't want to bore anyone or be perceived as negative, so just look up the trope.
I hate that stigma against Ariel. We forget that a lot of Disney princesses are minors and grew up in uncomfortable environments
The thing they seem to overlook is that Ariel was fascinated with the world "up there" way before she laid eyes on Eric. Her room was filled with things that she collected from her visits. She wanted her independence, she didn't want to live under the sea, she wanted more.
I am gonna be cynical and say the reason people excuse Ursula so much is because their idea of feminism is being self-centred and selfish. Which is what Ursula and some other female villains, including even Azula, are (and which isn't nor should be what feminism is about). So ofc they're gonna defend her saying she's just "doing business", ignoring the fact entirely that she was preying on Ariel. Imagine if it was a man preying like that on a 16 year old girl, wouldn't it look like a pretty terrible thing to do now?
It's just so infuriating because Ariel has always been my favourite Disney princess since I can remember. And the reason why she's my favourite is exactly because I liked her adventurous spirit and curiosity. At a young age, I even related to it because I too wanted to go on adventures and explore the world. And never have I ever gotten the impression that Ariel just wanted to be a human for a man. It's made very clear that she was already curious about the human world, and in fact it could be argued that her falling in love with Eric was influenced by that desire (not that she didn't like Eric- she did truly fall in love with him).
Evem as a kid when I watched the little mermaid I could see the tricks ursula was using to manipulate ariel to sign a contract, such as not giving her time to read the contract, pressuring her and use of emotive words to push Ariel's buttons. All while she's a 16 yr old child and not legally old enough to make legal decisions without patental support, the contract shpuldnt be binding. I was surprised the magic decided it was binding at the end, but after too much over thought as a youth, I wondered if its only cos ariel believed it was, magic is more about magic thoughts/beliefs even in fairytales. And thats not even factoring in the ongoing sabotage to prevent ariel succeeding her end of the invalid contract.
For the three of them in the thumbnail, Azula did attempted murder on several people, nothing can justify that. (And 90 % of the fanbase know this, and are trolling when they say otherwise.) Regina George is roundabout the meanest being on Earth: A teenage girl. Ursula tried to sabotage Ariel's tries to fulfill her contract. That's not how you do business in real life without deserving a jail sentence.
Loki killed a bunch of people, I don’t hear anyone complaining about his redemption. While we’re at it Nebula tried to kill her own sister, Darth Vader killed millions of people and A-train laughed about running through Robin and got innocent people killed. Azula tried to kill people because that’s literally what she was raised to ba child soldier and a killing machine. In the beach episode we literally see that she can’t be normal even when she tries because all she knows is how to be a weapon
I really enjoy your videos. I’ve been binginggg
Why do people make excuses for antiheroes that could be another question.
For antiheroes I think it’s because they are not opposed to killing so I think they’re like a good alternative to heroes like Batman and his ideals take the punisher, but then again if superheroes actually existed wouldn’t antihero’s be more realistic since most ppl ain’t that virtuous or selfless
@@dirammy but anti heroes never prioritize or go after the real problem
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 That’s true but there would always be ppl who are evil and do crime regardless of how better society gets
@@dirammy I 100% agree but so many people are in denial of that and what you are saying is objectively bs
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 You said you feel anti heroes don’t go after the the real problem could you give examples? you can use the punisher
Bearing in mind with Azula, she basically conquered Bah Sing Se because she was bored. Like it was a well executed plan, but nobody told her to do that. She just did that because she felt like it. She was only supposed to go an arrest Iroh and Zuko, she didn't need to bother with Aang or Bah Sing Se if she didn't want to.
I love Azula's character, she has allot of depth, but i hate when people try to paint her as a victim in the same light as Zuko. Even in the flashbacks to them as children we see her being borderline cruel.
She's a great character, and i'd argue she is a tragic character but she is still evil without remorse.
I often say that, in the Harry Potter books, Severus Snape is one of my favorite charecters but also one of my least favorite people in that universe. As a charecter he was very well writen, but that doesn't chage the fact that he was an adult using his position as a teacher to bully children. Also, when given the task of teaching Harry a skill that could be crucial to his survival, Snape took the oportunity to berate and humiliate him.
I aplly the same logic for Disney villians. I love them as characters, not as people. They are what I would never want to be as a person. I'd rather be like Snow White, who in a matter of hours after loosing everything and discovering that her only familly wanted her dead used her qualities and skils to make a new life for herself.
Calling Azula a war criminal isn’t hyperbolic. She enthusiastically goes on wars of aggression and territorial contests, threatens to kill subordinates for the sake of power, and advocates for systematically exterminating an entire civilization (she was the one who suggested that Ozai use Sozins comment to wipe out the Earth Kingdom like what was done with the Air Nomads). Yeah. She was participating in flat out genocide. This also included trying to kill Avatar Aang, the last living air bender. The villainous deeds of Azula were war crimes by the purest of definition.
Disney gives them the best songs
It’s true
Which Disney princess would I be? Rapunzel, because both of my parents would be alive and I'd also get to be with my love!
With Azula there are layers and I personally feel bad for her. A 14-year-old girl who has been made into a child soldier and is trying to appease her father is compelling about the redemption arc there was supposed to be a 4th season, but that didn't happen so fans are more about what could have been.
“She’s crazy and needs to go down” - Iroh
@@petermj1098 people have interpreted the quote as she needed to be put down like a rabid dog and mad about it
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 He wasn’t telling Zuko she was a lost cause he was just saying she is too dangerous and mentally unstable to make her truly understand Zuko’s struggle.
@@petermj1098 exactly what I thought
Excuses are bad. Explanations are good.
@rdmrdm2659 it’s happening right now with the The Boys/Gen V fanbase when it comes to characters like Sam Riordan and Cate Dunalp especially Sam , because people say he’s sympathetic and mentally ill and has humanity and therefore is excused
Sometimes I think it's okay to turn off your morals and enjoy watching the villains cause chaos and ruin everyone's lives.
You know, it would actually be really interesting if Hollywood did a movie where the 'sympathetic villains' won and show the consequences of them winning
Even in Avatar Aang sequel novel , Azula didn't changed much she was less cruel and willing to forge her own path with people who serve and obey her
She didn't killed the Fire warriors who left her
just curious why was jade west in the community post about this video but not in the video?
What I hate about movies is when they make it seem like the Prettiest Girl is always mean and just plain bad, while the ugly girl, or semi-pretty girl, is the hero and good girl. While sometimes it's true in real life, that's not always the case.
fr I was an awkward/nerdy kid and I was an absolute asshole because I was insecure about it. Other girls were kind of rude to me in middle school/late elementary, but to be honest, I wasn’t much better.
Ironically the people who defend Ursula for being “just a business woman” would be more accurate if they were describing the original Sea witch in the original Hans Christen Andersen little mermaid story.
In the original story while intimidating and mysterious the Sea witch wasn’t really a villain, she had no plans to manipulate the main character or take over the sea or anything like that, the mermaid just went to her in the hopes to become human and gain an immortal soul as well, that for whatever reason merfolk lack with her tongue being the payment for the magic, with a mermaids song being exactly like a sirens. The witch tells her what she needs to do and what the consequences are which are if she fails to marry the prince she’ll die, turn to seafoam, and just cease to exist.
And when she did fail to marry the prince who fell in love with a princess he assumed saved him, the mermaid’s sisters came to her with a knife that they paid to get from the sea witch by cutting there hair and if she uses the knife to stab and kill the prince and let his blood get on her legs she’ll become a mermaid again to live the rest of her longer lifespan. But she refused to kill the man she loved who was happy to be with his new wife. So when the sun rose she drops the knife and falls off the ship and dies, and depending on the version of the story she either become a daughter of the air spirit where she’ll work for 300 years to gain her soul and pass on to heaven or she just gets her soul immediately and goes to heaven directly.
And it's likely she did the same to those who make deals with her which is why they've turned into polyps.