We would appreciate it deeply if anyone could pray for us our 11 year old daughter Candice is very sick she's seeing doctors test she desperately needs your prayers please pray for her recovery praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
It seems like the burden should be on MacArthur and his leadership to know *all the facts* before publicly calling an abused woman to repentance and I cannot fathom why that wasn't done or what the excuse for that would be.
Exactly. The fact that some are trying to defend macarthur by saying that he didn't know the situation personally, he was just acting on information from one of the deacons/elders is very disconcerting. He should not call out someone in sin publicly if he is operating out of hearsay.
Allie, my heart has been racing since the beginning of this video. I had a horrible situation happening in my marriage and I was continually advised by many leaders in the church, as well as family members, to stay in the marriage and be submissive. They KNEW there were some issues that needed to be dealt with, by my husband, and insisted I needed to stay, EVEN THOUGH HE REFUSED HELP!! Something happened that forced me to leave with my children. The damage still lingers in all of us. NEVER EVER EVER hold a human, even someone with a wonderful ministry, to such standards that only Jesus could achieve!! Question anything that sounds out of line. None of us are so righteous that we can’t make grave errors! This poor woman deserves sincere apologies and support. Trust me, you have to have been in similar shoes to know the pain!!
I agree that it is our responsibility to question our leaders when thing sound out of line, but I also agree with Allie if the church did not facts then the church could not advise or assist her. Many victims of abuse are good at hiding the abuse, even to the people closely to them. Did John MacArthur know he was telling her to stay with her abusive husband? Had she sharing the truth with the church or any of the congregants? Or, was she asking without the telling the truth? I do know, and I do not know what was said behind closed doors or if anything. I do not believe we cannot look at the situation and make a decision with the information we have without having been in a similar situation. Many times being in a similar situation actually hinders us seeing all the facts because our only experience coloring our judgement. I do not understand why the apology, only if, he did not have all the facts. If he knew the facts, definitely an apology and a public apology. I do not understand holding him accountable for what he did not know and the lady did not share. Maybe that is my own pride showing, but from what I have read it does not seem like the church knew about the abuse then he knew her to stay with her husband.
Well done for getting yourself and your children out of this situation no personl I have been married for 52 years and have been a Christian for 54 years so I have a lot of life experience do not allow any person to control your decisions the Bible says everyman shall give an account of himself to God so in my opinion he is the only one we need to obey no woman has to put up with abuse and her responsibility is to her children and I speak as a woman who had an abuser for a father so know the lasting affect of an abuser on a child pity some Pastors don't
The issue I have is as soon as the full truth came out about total gravity of the abuse towards the wife, the children and others GCC should have Repented and Restored the family. They should have lead the way and renounced everything that was said during that service and they need to do it publicly! Even if they weren’t told the full story at the time they now do know. And JM should hold his self and his leadership accountable and admit they made a grave mistake! Period! GCC and JM aren’t perfect and by them not responding not repenting and not restoring this family makes it look as if they think they are. GCC hasn’t addressed the article ( not the journalist) if they had we would be able to find it. They are ignoring it which is wrong. They must be held to task! More importantly JM should do it because he ALWAYS addresses others sins and he does it quickly and publicly without hesitation why should he not be expecting the same for himself?! Please really think about that!
I'm glad you talked about John McArthur! I've been having a really hard time with this, especially after finding out about Ravi Zacharias last year. But I think they _did_ know she was being abused. That was talked about in the counseling sessions. She was told she needed to 'submit' to' it in order to keep her marriage together to be obedient to Christ. This is nonsense since Jesus never told anyone to remain in an abusive relationship and we know he instructed men to love their wives as Christ loves the church. That never includes abuse. I had friends that my husband and I were very close to. The husband was a minister who was a former drug addict. He had been clean for years before they met and they were a happy couple. Unfortunately he relapsed and abuse behind closed doors began. She loved her husband and didn't know what to do. Finally she went to her church leadership and told them what was happening. He was counseled, released from his position and encouraged to get help. He didn't, and things got worse. My friend was devastated and had to call the pastors to intervene when he attacked her. They showed up and called the police for her. Then they pulled her aside and told her it was time to go. My friends had two very young boys and the pastor told her they would grow up thinking this was how a man treats his wife. They were learning to be abusive and would expect their wives to forgive them and accept it. It broke her heart but they separated and eventually divorced since he kept refusing help. And, though it hurt to see it, my husband and I were on her side and we were happy to know she had such wise pastors who put the respect for the Lord and protection of the innocent above appearances. After a few years he was able to get clean again and they reconciled and remarried and they're happier than ever. I say all that because how Grace Church handled the matter is polar opposite. They _knew_ he was abusive and yet told her to stay. They failed to protect her and her children and, to make things worse, they gave him another prominent position. I wish JM would address this because I really like and admire him. Maybe he thinks he shouldn't have to say anything, but I _would_ like to hear his side of it because I see this as a real failing. And if he _didn't_ know and he just followed the recommendation of his pastoral staff, again, I see that as a failure because he should've investigated the matter for himself before calling someone out before the whole church. This has been a long comment but that's my reasoning and I'm having a hard time not looking sideways at JM right now and really I hate feeling like that.
Please consider Jon Harris's exhaustive take on this matter. His channel is "Conversations that Matter." He looks at the timeline, assumptions, and additional information. Before we judge consider we have only heard from those hostile to MacArthur and his church. Consider Proverbs 18:17 "In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines."
Though it sounds as though this chap MacArthur had done so before and yes it’s quite biblical. Terrifying but some people are that defiant. In other cultures this Christian practice is more acceptable .
no-one knows if he had all details....so Paul publicly naming 8 flse teachers in one letter to Tim. was wrong; Luther was wrong to name the Pope and Rome CC as apostate -- was he supposed to go an visit him!
even at this late date, JohnMcArther should humble himself and PUBLICLY admit his wrong doing, ask for her forgiveness. This must have been devastating for her impressionable children!
@Jason Bourne Supposedly, he confessed to abusing their child and "repented". So, yes, they knew. From other Julie Roys reports, it sounds like counselors/pastors are trained to "preserve the marriage" over the body. That as Christians, bodily safety is a lesser concern than our Christian witness. If that's true--that they teach this--then it sounds like they're being consistent. They'd also say bringing in "the law" just makes things worse, what does the world know of God's ways. It's such a "high view" of the Bible, it leaves people out. I was raised in a similar environment--high view of the Word, women are to submit, etc. My mom "modeled suffering" for her kids, stayed with my dad until he threatened to kill my brother. My dad was an unbeliever until he was caught--someone said "no more"--at which point he had a "come to Jesus" moment, tears, repentance, even months of good behavior. But as soon as he thought he'd won, all that went away. I'm 61 now. I have a super messed up relationship with "the church" and maybe any human Christian with "authority". This saga is of particular interest to me because my brother is a MacArthur devotee. I never could quite like Johnny Mac, maybe because my brother DID like him, almost seemed to blindly trust him. Abused kids grow up to be adults both looking for safety and unable to resist the familiarity of the abusive environment. (Often not even able to detect abuse, even though, as a cop, my brother arrested abusers all the time.) Satan has done brilliantly, making the Bible his tool. :-(
@@cindylutz7442 Conversations that Matter has excellent commentary along with links to court documents on this case. Very complicated and shows she did not come forward til much later. Also the physiologist who exam the children, their finding were blocked from being admitted. So you can exam for yourself the court records. Royce just came out apologizing for an inappropriate relationship she had with a female teenage she had under her in ministry that she outlines in her book. Royce is a liberal progressive who has written 48 articles trying to destroy John Macarthur especially since he told Beth Moore to go home. All of her previous articles have been disproved. She is not a credible source.
@Jason Bourne brother, her husband is RIGHT NOW serving a jail sentence for child abuse. It's been proven in the court of law that there was abuse. Whether MacArthur knew at the time or not, he's now been proven wrong, yet he still refuses to even acknowledge this situation, much less apologize.
@@richardcaraballo1185 Exactly! He is the very definition of "not practicing what he preaches". He should at the very least admit that he may have been wrong, but his pride won't even let him do that. I have listened to MacArthur for over 3 decades, and this is truly disturbing.
@@cindylutz7442 do not waste time watching John Harrises’s video. He’s Pro MacArthur, and all he does in his videos is slander and speculate when he’s got the evidence in front of him from the article. It would be a waste of your time. He’s pro MacArthur it will twist everything to make MacArthur out to be the good guy. Do not watch conversations that matter, protestia or BTW in. All of them are pro MacArthur and will not be objective.
Yes! Say it louder for the people in the back. I’ve seen idolatry of pastors before, but the idolatry of John MacArthur is outrageous and extreme. There’s a very cult like nature to it.
We pray yes but when people are going through things you need the support of what we call church.Are we really showing Jesus’s character when we are the victims of abuse.
Not knowing about the abuse towards the children is no reason to dismiss the abuse of the wife. Wouldn't she have at least been sharing the details of her own abuse during the counseling sessions? I sought counseling for my marriage while attending a Baptist church. My ex was very charming and appeared to be remorseful and repentant until we got home and the violence and verbal abuse would start up again as a form of punishment for what I shared. And much of what was shared during the sessions was dismissed by the pastor/counselor and chalked up to the run of the mill issues all couples have. The pastor even joked and said, "if God is calling you to be a doormat, then by all means be a doormat." I don't believe all churches are like this in handling dysfunction, abuse of power, and disputes among the people etc. but there is something I do believe God has his finger on and wants to clean up. Most of the responsibility for the relationship to work is placed on the victim to forgive... which is 100% necessary but the victimizer and those who have the authority to do anything about what's going on are often times not really held accountable for their role in the situation and required over time to show the fruit of repentance which is changed behavior. And as a disclaimer... I do see that some are using the churches junk as a political weapon and that's wrong. I just hope we can still work through what needs to change within the church regardless of how the world is responding and trying to use it.
They did know about the abuse against the children. The church and the wife didn't yet know about the sexual abuse that had happened, but they knew about the physical abuse, some of which David had even given a handwritten confession of. (Like calling his one daughter a dog, tying her up, making her eat from a dog bowl, partially suffocating her, etc.) But GCC wouldn't even file the handwritten confession and instead counseled the wife to forgive her husband, give him unsupervised access to the kids, and if any abuse still occurred against herself, she could example 'suffering for Jesus.'
The Pastor and the staff DID know that he was physically abusing her and her children. Her husband ADMITTED to the staff that he had suffocated one of the children on at least one occasion. The children were terrified of their father and told their mother that their dad was going to kill them. He had beaten the children on numerous occasions. The staff DID know. They still told her to stay with a man who was physically, mentally, and yes, later found out he was sexually abusing them What is a so called Pastor doing telling a woman who is terrified of her abusive husband to stay. We all know that abusers NEVER get better the abuse gets worse and worse. Its is NEVER right to counsel a abused wife/mother to stay with the abuser. There is no where in the Bible that says that a woman must stay in fact, it says that God hates divorce but he still provided the divorce so that in situations like this women can leave. The truth is the Southern Baptist church has covered up child sexual abuse and abuse of women for decades. There was a great article by the Houston Chronicle that there are over 700 plus victims of child sexual abuse, the pastors KNEW and instead hide the abuse from authorities and shipped those pedo pastors to other churches. There is no confusion with this story at all. He knew, he shamed this woman, and he should step down. That's how I feel.
Wow, I read something far different..... I am sure mistakes were made BUT I seriously doubt Pastor MacArthur Covered up Any Abuse of a Physical or Sexual Nature. But, again I was not there. Go To BTWN Channel He knows things more intimately. Allie said Records showed that it was not known till two years later ......GOD Knows that's all I definitely know. I also know that humans will pounce on someone before they actually really know what happened. Just look at our politics.....
@@solochristo65 one of the pastors of the church told Eileen gray to "suffer for Jesus" and they were arrested for failure to report which is the law in California. They were well aware of the what was happening.
The United States Department of Justice reported in 2017 that "school employee sexual misconduct, the sexual abuse and misconduct of K-12 students by school employees, is estimated to affect 10% of our nation’s students.” With a public school enrollment of about 50,000,000, that is about 5,000,000 children per year. The tragic abuse in the SBC averages 35 per year. My point? The media has spun this tragedy to suggest there is something special about the SBC that breeds or protects predators. By contrast, children are FAR safer in the SBC churches than the public school. Our standard should be zero abuse every year, but degeneracy is much more rampant and welcome outside the church. Please don't spread this narrative without considering how you are slandering an association of 14,000,000 for the actions of a few hundred deviants over 20 years.
Hmm, my reaction to this story is that it's probably not true. I don't think ANY woman, period, and certainly not a Christian mother would allow this. And then go to church to ask permission to separate from the husband? No, I just don't believe it. I believe some variation of it, but not this. You would have to be completely and utterly brainwashed or he was insane and she could not go to police, which I never heard. No mother allows their children to be smothered by their father and then stays. And I have serious issues with churches terrible teaching, training and discipline of young men/husbands over the years. But this particular story I don't believe is being reported truthfully.
What am I missing? Serious question. I agree that the church did not know about the sexual abuse until later but they did know that Gray was physically abusing the children. After all, that was the reason for the separation. He admitted it. To publicly excommunicate her for refusing to take the abuser back seems creepy.
These things happen when our focus is on upholding and continuing an institution instead of Christ. And I mean that for ALL sides. Our churches are functioning as corporations instead of agents of change. We're fighting to maintain the status quo while the world is dying right outside our doors without Christ. Maybe it's time to rethink how we do church.
U know JMac and his staff may not have known all the details but they do now. And now that they do, they should offer this woman and her children an apology. It’s warranted. When my son was little, I made a bad judgment call on him and punished him for something I was told he did. Later on I found out the truth and profusely apologized to him. When we make a bad judgment call, regardless of the reasons, we need to take responsibility and try to make it right if possible. This whole thing is so unfortunate. Just my two cents for what it’s worth. Blessings.
@@dawngiles332 yes, the woman in question testifies to that and he refuses to speak in public about it. (he had no issue about speaking in public before about it, his shaming of the woman is on you tube).
@@dawngiles332 yes. He knew about it before so this is rather a moot point, but the whole world knows that he knew now and he still refuses to talk to her. When it came out publicly she called his office and he would not speak with her.
The article provides evidence that they did know that there was at least physical abuse going on, they even encourage her that enduring the abuse is a way of “suffering for Christ”. John McArthur has been a blessing to my life but I think if he didn’t know all the details, if his elders failed to inform him and He still excommunicated her, then when He knew the extent of the story he should have publicly restore her as well.
@@amandarobertson3772 I would like to suggest this video: th-cam.com/video/esPMcDsPR1Y/w-d-xo.html it breaks down the timeline and gives a clearer view of what happened, that the article just doesn't give. I was left with a very different understanding of the situation after watching this, and actually reading more of the documents, than how I felt at first after just reading the article.
There has been many sexual abuse from the pastors and leaders of this church and they did nothing to these preachers but move them to another location 🤨🙄😡
Allie, it is verifiable from the documents that the elders at GCC DID know Gray was a child abuser (physical abuse, threatening to kill them etc). They did NOT know he was *sexually* abusing them. I think you are conflating the two in your comments.
@@AllieBethStuckey Please talk to or watch Jon Harris take on his "Conversations that Matter" channel. He talks about the timeline, misinformation, and assumptions.
I would caution (as a GCC member for almost a decade and personal acquaintance of many GCC elders and players in these stories) that Harris is wrong in his take. He mostly just wildly speculates.
@@shawnihensler1435 can you make an actual comment saying this? Many are reccommending his video. I believe you as no Macarthur defenders are correct. They just do everything to protect him.
I have experienced the lack of care and the pressure given to those in abusive situations. Personally from John MacArthur's protege, Cary Hardy at Twin City Baptist Church. My abuser was handed an anger management book and I was told to do my wifely duty. So it does not surprise me at all about John MacArthur. Sick and twisted views putting marriage over the people in the marriage. It breaks my heart.
Thats terrible. :( Similar things happened at my church as well, at least over a decade ago, where several abused women weren't given help by the church and it was brushed over/covered-up (in one case the alleged abuser even left on staff for a couple years.) The women were the ones who ended up leaving the church while the men were not punished or held to any accountability process. I didn't find out about a few of those cases until later (as some ended up at a different local church I sometimes attended.)
The issue I have is that to this day, there's been no apology given to Ilene Gray for the public humiliation given to her from the pulpit by JMac. Perhaps he didn't know all the details at the time, and probably shouldn't have been so quick to discipline her, but as time has gone on it's pretty much been proven Mr. Gray is undoubtedly wrong, & church discipline was therefore wrongfully used on her. Yet to this day, JMac & the staff at GCC just keep it pushing like if nothing happened. Christianity is all about forgiveness and repentance, yet MacArthur's unwillingness to repent is troubling.
Bear in mind also that Eileen Grey was excommunicated and 'shamed' twice on separate occasions- as if once isn't enough. She wanted to resign her church membership but they wouldn't allow it.
@@comm2190 this! Very cult like behavior. She wanted to leave but they excommunicate her instead. And the public shaming is so hard to watch. It makes me sick, especially when you consider they do it during communion which is supposed to be a time to reflect on Jesus and then they sing amazing grace on top of it. And Macarthur tells the congregation to treat Eileen as if she’s an unbeliever.
@@tyeishaleisure I think if I was Ilene, I would have said, "Forget You," to the Church and gone to a Battered Woman's Shelter for awhile...They let you bring your kids...I am.a born--again Christian BTW and I went through something similar and I/we had to leave in order to survive...I got tired of all that crap from my "ex." and I couldn't take it anymore...I know that Jesus understood all of that...He was a Man of Sorrows and acquainted with grief.......
The problem I have with the GCC timeline narrative is the point of Eileen (the victim) leaving the church, asking them to remove her from the roll, yet they had to excommunicate her. That's cult like.
Allie Beth, you say we have no way of knowing if McArthur knew about the abuse. The article you linked provides proof that the leadership of McArthur's church did know about the abuse because they wrote several letters to Eileen to try to get her to drop the Protective Order she had on her husband. It also states that McArthur's personal assistant told her she needed to model for her children what it means to "suffer for Jesus" when she went to them for help. Are we to honestly believe that the rest of the leadership knew about the abuse but John McArthur, himself, did not? The answer seems pretty obvious, if we are intellectually honest. It is our denial of the obvious facts, not those exposing evil, that are making the church look bad. This needs to stop.
Well said! Sadly, it was this issue, that GCC and JM are playing martyr about and refusing to face reality, combined with JM’s financial milking of his college/seminary to enrich his family (that nearly cost them their accreditation), which made us rule out Masters as an option for our high school grad, after we had been seriously looking at it as an option. I love JM’s preaching, but what is going on there otherwise is spiritually toxic, and has the appearance at very least of evil.
There is evidence that the church knew of his child abuse in2001. He supposedly “repented” so she was supposed to just go back to him. Good for her for protecting her children. She knew her husband better than anyone. They didn’t put any trust in her. John Mac Arthur staying silent about this to this day proves he is full of pride and wrong. He also contributed to the abuse of this woman.
John MacArthur is still writing letters to John Gray in prison encouraging him that he is suffering for the sake of Christ. The counselor at church also said it was her duty to submit to his abuse.
I had the same experience in a Foursquare Gospel Church that my ex--husband and I attended in Oakland... He was beating the tar out of me and the "Assistant" Pastor told me that I had no "right" to leave the marriage... Eventually, my ex--husband told me he had bought a gun and he started to "man--handle" my son...I had to get out of there because I thought he would injure Daniel (our son)...We landed up staying at a Battered Woman's Shelter, but it was better than dying.......
Having read Roys' articles about John MacArthur a couple of times it is obvious to me that either Allie either HAS NOT read them, or her comprehension is lacking. She completely misses the fact that it was CLEAR that David Gray was physically abusing his wife and children at the time Eileen was publicly shamed at GCC. The sexual abuse came out later. And the events are very well documented, if you actually take the time to read them as I have. Please, get your facts straight before misleading your audience, Allie! The last thing we need as the people of God is more champions for those who oppress and abuse.
I absolutely agree. I'm usually a fan of Allies' show, but this one was shocking! I think it is just her age and naivety showing. To be fair, even older Christians find coercive control and manipulation that goes on in these marriages. I'm sure the woman's husband did a 'great' job of being narcissistic and convincing. Women should be listened to by churches. It seems that John McArthur hasn't got up to date!
I agree we can't dismiss accusations out of hand, but we can't assume John McArthur is 'innocent' just because he preaches the gospel. Remember Ravi Zacharias.
Yikes! Is that a fair comparison? Ravi apparently abused numerous women and lead a double life. MacArthur believed his elders and apparently wrongly practiced church discipline on a woman. One is a lifestyle of sin, the other is an unfortunate case of poor discernment.
@@eurekahope5310 there's quite few (so far) examples of that "poor discernment" in GCC in the form of siding with and covering up abusers. Could that be a pattern/lifestyle?
@@eurekahope5310 and yet he refuses to admit he was wrong and support this women. He denies her request to withdraw membership. He and the church continue to be hostile to her
Before publicly calling her out they had a responsibility to do their due diligence and find out every single detail of what was happening. What they did was publicly embarrassed and shamed this woman without doing what they were supposed to do first. They are the ones that need to be publicly called out and brought to repentance!
I read the original article a few times, the one from the 8th of March. But, it has been some time since the last time I read it. But I believe it makes clear that she refused to take him back when they knew he had *physically abused* the children. They didn't know that he had sexually abused them. But they did know he had *physically* abused him. So the title of the article doesn't appear to me to be dishonest. And, I believe I knew this distinction *from* the article by Julie Roys. Anyway, it does seem to me that John MacArthur made a mistake here. But it is also true that it appears he *didn't* know about the *sexual* abuse at the time, only the *physical* abuse. But he *did* know about the physical abuse. It seems to me a simple apology is in order here, and that might be all Eileen Gray wants.
Thank you. She actually release a state through Julie Royce and said that she doesn’t expect an apology because to them she may as well be dead. She stated that the reason she came out with her story it’s because she hopes that her story can help prevent this from happening again and could encourage other victims to come forward. Macarthur did indirectly respond during his service day and cried persecution and said that these were Satanic attacks on his church and ministry.
For the MacArthur church and any other church that finds itself with public repentance…I would think they would want all facts before doing something that has no love behind it. Feel for this poor mom and her children that was not getting support from their own church. Not sure that public repentance is really needed, helpful, or beneficial for anyone. In this case, the husband should have been outed for public repentance at a minimum!
Many pastors don't even realize how much they love money and power until they have it, then once they do, they will do anything to hold onto it, including lying and taking advantage of others.
It doesn’t matter what he and didn’t know at any given time. To call someone out in front of your congregation for a private sensitive matter ( whether you think it’s sinful or not) is abuse of your position as a pastor. If you are concerned about their spiritual well being you speak to them in private. If you think someone is in need of spiritual counseling why would you kick them out of your church??? I get the impression MacArthur is egotistical and this impairs his judgement.
@@iloveamerica64 GCC took a very legalistic approach to Matthew 18. Please consider what her supposed sin was, and then how it is that all the husband had to do was tell them he repented without being given time to demonstrate his repentance before they told the wife to drop her restraining order and go back to her husband. The timeframe between that initial counseling session in which the husband confessed and that church service in which the wife was excommunicated was less than a year -- if I remember correctly, it was only a little more than six months. Why does the husband get a free pass for his sins, but the wife and children have the dilemma of facing excommunication from their church or facing further abuse? It takes time for abusers to change, and while God does perform miracles, why didn't GCC err on the side of caution and shepherd the family appropriately, giving the time they needed to heal together if it was possible?
@@lornadoone8887 I’m sorry, but this is incorrect. There is a described procedure for church discipline in the Bible that involves public confrontation as the final step. That doesn’t mean JM was right in how he handled it (I admit to being unaware of the details of this situation, so I offer no opinion on that matter generally). There are right and wrong ways to do things, and times to do a thing, and a time not to. The concept taken by itself, however, is biblical when applied correctly.
@@iloveamerica64 She wasn't "in sin" for having a protective order against her violent husband who had abused her and the kids. (And who was still violating that order repeatedly and stalking her.) It's not "church discipline" to tell a women that unless she lets her abusive husband back into the house immediately, she's unrepentant and will be excommunicated. And note she wasn't against her husband coming back *eventually* - she was demanding a process of professional counseling and actual accountability. Not a, 'welp he apologized but hey if he does it again you can suffer for Jesus' type approach. Her *husband* was the one living in sin. (He's also the one that later divorced her! Not that the church rebuked him for that.)
Allie, It was enough that the man physically abused his wife. Telling a woman that she MUST reconcile with someone who abused her is never right. They told her that he repented. Only a person who lived with him could determine if his repentance is genuine and when sin is that damaging, there should be plenty of time for a track record of respect. I ask you to listen to all of the Roys reports that show a clear track record of mysoginy in the MacArthur organization, the 3/16/21 Roys Report “what’s the Truth about MacArthur and His Ministries” where Julie interviews ppl who worked at the seminary for many years. Time for JM to come down off his pedestal.
Ok but saying they didn’t know is a really poor excuse. There are many steps before excommunicating a member. If she was so adamant about not returning to her husband they should have asked themselves why. It should be one of the first questions they ask. I think it was a huge lack of discernment. Guaranteed the husband was a charming guy, and he was probably someone’s buddy on the board of elders. I do love John McAurthur’s stuff. I’m sure he was way too busy to even investigate a situation like this. But the “good ol boys club” mentality in the church needs to stop. It prevents men from having true repentance, and it endangers women.
I usually agree with your podcasts but without knowing all the details, it sounds to me like that the calling out of this woman borders on abusive. A wife not wanting to reconcile with her husband is much different than the one or two examples in the NT church ( I can think of Ananias and Sapphira and the man sleeping with his father’s wife). The first example was quite extreme and I can’t imagine that happening today. I don’t know if that is normative in His church but if it is, I just don’t see a strong precedent for calling out a member for this kind of thing in front of the whole body. That is like a last resort thing and imo for something much more damaging to the church as a whole.
I just constantly get reminded to not elevate men, or put them on pedestals, because we all fall short. I wish Christians had more love for each other, and more grace, and that we just all strived to be like Jesus more and more each day. Myself included.
As someone who used to work as a family therapist, I have seen my share of church leadership taking the side of an abusive man and rapists fathers. The wreckage is unbelievable. A church in my city did a public shaming of a woman. It always seems to be a male pastor calling out a woman. He who is without sin, cast the first stone.
I know of 3 instances where the men weren’t physically abusive but emotionally abusive or neglectful. The pastors encouraged or suggested the women to leave & 1 did file for divorce, 1 left that particular church (the husband is not a believer) & the other is still married. I don’t know details to make judgments & I wasn’t close enough to the women to ask.
As someone who LOVES John MacArthur’s sermons and watched him very regularly for a time, I still will never understand people having a level of fanaticism over pastors (particularly theologically sound pastors) that would cloud their brains into thinking they are faultless and cannot possibly do something wrong while in the ministry. Creating celebrities out of generally decent pastors is no better than creating celebrities out of “pastors” that twist, misuse, and manipulate Scripture. Both make a fandom (can you believe it?!) from flawed people who are to be held accountable as leaders BECAUSE they are human. It lowers our guard. I get enjoying one particular pastor’s way of preaching over another, but practically idolizing the man is wrong. It seriously needs to stop. I haven’t done any research on this particular incident, but it sounds like JM wrongfully called someone out without having all the info, and that someone is being spiteful over it. Whatever the case may be (let’s say even if he is completely innocent in this matter), we aren’t to come to someone’s defense simply bc we like them. We are to use wisdom to determine the truth. And very few people on social media are willing to do that before writing an ignorant comment.
@@KJ-lb4tj We can't love when someone preaches the Word of God? I think everyone has had a sermon or group of sermons that have blessed them. Or people may like a teaching style of one particular preacher as it helps them understand the Word better.
I think part of the issue is that JM presents himself and his fellow calvinists as fully regenerated and they constantly talk about that regeneration in a light that makes it sound like they’ve been cured of sin. Every time I listen to one of his sermons he talks about the sin of the world in almost a way that excludes himself and his church. Just my opinion. I’ve listened to my fair share of sermons and talks from him and others in his theological camp.
Dear Allie, please consider watching Jon Harris's exhaustive study into the timeline, additional evidence, and the biases. Roys has written 47 articles to discredit MacArthur and we ought to consider both sides before judgement. Proverbs 18:17 "In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines"
First of all, it wasn’t only John MacArthur that excommunicated her. It was also his board of elders that made this decision. And they had access to more information about this situation than the media had. Also more information came out later the church didn’t know about. When church discipline is being administered it is not an exact science. Sometimes the church has limited information about a situation, sometimes the discipline is too harsh and sometimes to lenient. Sometimes even an innocent party has been excommunicated. However, you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Grace Community Church made the best decision with the information they had at the time.
Exactly. This is an issue that should be planted firmly *within* that church, as it's impossible for us to know exactly the sequence of events taht led up to it. I might have more of a problem with his/their insistence that she take back an abusive man without *his* repentance. But in the end we don't know the real details, and while many will disagree with John's doctrine, his integrity as a literal Bible follower is unquestionable. I just don't see him going to that length without proper authority.
How about the fact that up until this all came out, Grace Community Church was paying the child molester wife abuser to do prison ministry? Are we really going to say that after about 20 years, they still didn't have "all the information?"
If I have my facts right David Gray had already been fired from teaching at the church’s school for abusing his own kids when Eileen was counseled to let him move back into her home. She told the pastor from Grace Church that they needed to hire him back on to work with children before she allowed him to be around her own.
No. She didn’t want him working with children at all. When the church wanted him to work at the LA school district which is subsequently where he got arrested, she tried to get them to not do it, but since she has not filed her please report, they let him go to the Los Angeles school district where he molested some children. So no, she didn’t want him to be around children. I encourage you to read the article. Allie dismissed it, but the events arewell documented, andthere are links to videos and documents that correspond with the case. You can also find The article that states that David Gray was arrested just by doing a Google search.
@@veganbear3673 gotcha. I really wish Allie have done more research before making this video. All the information she needed is in the article she linked.
@@veganbear3673 agree. I wish Macarthur wasn’t treated like a god. The cult like defense of him is disturbing. I literally saw someone on Twitter say they’d defend him even if he committed murder. It’s disgusting. And his only response has been to cry persecution and say that this is just the satanic attack.
McArthur's church definitely knew there was physical abuse at the time of Eileen Gray's ex communication and they believed this husband and exalted Church leadership member had sincerely repented, and somehow that made everything hunky dory and Eileen should feel instantly safe and secure. There's something called the fruits of repentance that John the Baptist mentioned so it has strong biblical foundation that might have had something to do with why Eileen wasn't ready to just go bouncing back home in submission to her husband. But it's true the church didn't know nor apparently did Eileen know that her husband's problems extended to sexual abuse of the children yet. So wisdom and Eileen were vindicated by their children. It's unfortunate that you are late in responding to this story and though I'm glad you aren't dismissing it, others have already covered the more concerning details. Roys is not progressive. Ruslan had her on his YT channel and she explained her orthodox conservative beliefs. It's so easy to assume that when a woman is calling out the men of high esteem and power in the church on behalf of a woman who was protecting her children, the first thing we have to do is discredit the woman reporter. Hmm. I wonder why that still happens?
You left out the part where Eileen Gray was deposed and it was revealed she abused her children. She tied one of them up in the bed at night as discipline. I hope God has more mercy on us.
The little girl was hurting her siblings at night. They didn't know what to do , but considering the little girl was being sexually abused that is probably the reason she was lashing out pulling her hair and attacking siblings. The mother revoked her membership from this spiritually abusive church, that venerates fathers and demands the wife dutifully agree with her husband's discipline of children.
Everything is going to be alright very soon because God is in control while we await for our blessed Hope for our Lord and savior Jesus Christ is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
I grew up listening to John and GTY radio broadcasts since the early 70’s. I do know one thing that John MacArthur believes that the gifts of the Holy Spirit has “ceased” after the Apostolic era was over. “The gift of Discernment” is part of those so called “parting gifts”…..My wife and I have been used by the Spirit of God in counseling to break up an “unlawful union” between a couple who where going to get married. She was a Christian and he was not although he professed to be one. It turned out that they where living together and she got convicted in our prayer over their union and she decided to break up with him. He became very angry with her and verbally abused her where she ended up putting a restraining order on him! We did not know the underlying circumstances but the Holy Spirit did! He saved her from this predator who was preying on her vulnerability.
I highly recommend the deep dive “Jon Harris from Conversations that matter “ did on the Julie Roy’s accusations of pastor John MacArthur. Julie has been on a vendetta to try to bring JMac down for years. I’m surprised Ally you weren’t familiar with who she is. I for one, do not believe GTY did anything wrong. Shame on Julie n her minion’s.
As someone who attended GCC for almost a decade and knows several elders There personally, Jon got a lot of things very wrong. If you pay attention to his commentary, it is almost 100% conjecture.
Agree, she doesn’t like anyone who calls out female pastors. This has been covered and answered repeatedly and I find it interesting who keeps bringing this back up.
@@shawnihensler1435 People will always give validity to the person that supports their bias. I’ve noticed how people are discouraging others from other content creators and pointing them to Jon Harris instead. What makes Jon more credible than someone else that may not align with their theological camp ?
@@strivin4excellence09 I have been following John Harris for a long time and I'm a big fan of his podcast. However, I think he has this John macarthur thing wrong. I think his opinion is clouded by his esteem for John MacArthur. Like @Shawni Hensler stated, his take is a lot of conjecture and assumptions
Having been raised in John MacArthur denomination and going to a Christian school connected to our church... This ignorance (or lack of attempt to understand abuse - any abuse, mental, verbal, other of woman) is pervasive. As well...the demand that woman submit EVEN when the husband has a ROTTEN DISPOSITION is the greater call of repentance...rather than Pastors snatch that man up by the back of his neck and straighten that chump out...and TELL THAT MAN TO GET UP - IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH AND REPENT FOR YOUR INDECENT & ROTTEN BEHAVIOR TOWARDS YOUR WIFE - AN CAUSING AN UNGODLY HOME. This man worked for the church. MacArthur didn't want to know ANY of the true story or full story - because it would reflect on him....and he was too arrogant to be the Shepherd commanded of him. When you are a pastor...who walks in and asserts arrogance...you can have a whole life of ministry but God will allow your unloving, unprotecting arrogance ruin your whole ministry. It wasn't God's arrogance - it was his arrogance. The fundamental church needs badly to get immersed in the Holy Spirit...because they have no ability to act like anything but narcissist. Clearly why in last days, God will judge the churches.
That makes zero sense. Other than to say... Men are failing the one church body. Men have become unfaithful, unloving & abrasive. and still pointing at that woman you gave me. Woman of the last 25yrs do not even recognize Loving, Tender or Patient Godliness in men. There are no Martha Washingtons....because there are no George Washington's. The Leaders & Men of the church have so traded Godliness, Holiness, Sanctification, Obedience, Sacrifice for Arrogance & Power & continue to overtly or covertly blame woman for whatever sensation - that can be thought up - to deflect away from their disobedient dispositions. The last 20yrs...woman are constantly now told (because before in the 80s we were all burning our bras right? Except all us girls in youth group looked around church...and our mothers were sitting right there, having got up at 5am to make a casserole for supper on the grounds for all those men Blaming us for burning our bras, not respecting husbands, wanting your place). That just caused 50% divorce as men increased abuse. * Now woman are told "your just too emotional" " Your mother is just so emotional". " If your going to have an emotional conversation & not a reasonable conversation, then were ending this conversation". Congradulations....now you have a self fulfilling prophesy...woman are masculine, your CHURCH daughters are masscine & use F bomb like any man. Our daughters have sex here or there, with this or that, why? Not for emotional connection as God created. No, she's not suppose to have any emotions right? So that's just One Product of covertly attacking nature. Newest product in mass numbers....the CHURCH sons of Men of the church are all now on you tube, snap chat, what's app, tik tok, proudly pronouncing their bisexual or transgender nature. In the 80s & 90s, the church Pastors & Men Overtly Attacksc Woman such as (McArthur did in his public rebuke). But now woman are covertly attacked. Men watch movies where woman are fighting a man..kicking his butt (for entertainment) or, men continue watching thru sex scenes or continue watching with whatever vulgarity is lashed through our home & woman are called horrifying cuss words. Because woman are shown now as sexually masculine. They participate in this entertainment sons & daughters present or football, sports with TV commercials just blazing across the screen same as mentioned above. Men have led church & family into utter confusion. Mom is not to be emotional, girls should be masculine. Mom is the target of all the failures of men. Instead of men get up & go save your church and country from Unrighteousness & Ungodliness. So...thats that. God will judge the Carnality, Self Centerdness, Selfishness, Unfaithfulness, Disobedience, Unrighteousness, Impatiatient, Unloving, Un-tender, Cheating, Entitled, Ungodly, Shift Blaming Men of The One Church & Men have everything to do with it. It's time for the church to preach Sin & Repentance. Matter of fact, woman should stay home & get her chores done & let men get themselves to the church & to the alter (again) to pray (maybe even fast & pray). Problem is...the church would be empty.
I’m a conservative Christian and do know that the Bible says we are to be accountable to each other as Christians and that, yes, you can call out someone’s sin in a group of other believers in order to help them repent. However, I’m uncomfortable with the fact that he called her out in front of a whole church full of people. It doesn’t sound right. I don’t know exactly how I feel about that but I guess, honestly, I don’t think he should have done it that way. If they guy was abusing her and the kids, she needs to go.
As the child of a mom who was counseled by her church leaders to "just submit better" I have never felt right about John MacArthur. I'm assured that stories I hear are out of context, that he is beloved by everyone and there's just no way--well sure, he's human but he's a superior sort of human. I guess. For me, to me, and I've been around the block a few times, that is the template for abuse. Sadly, these stories don't come as a shock to me.
Please read Matthew 18. They had a year of counseling and (apparently falsely) believed that her husband was truly repentant. As Christians we are called to forgive. As to the abuse of the children, the wife admitted that they were both heavy handed in their discipline. There was NO mention of molestation. As Believers we can divorce for infidelity and when an unbelieving spouse asks to divorce. While it may not be culturally popular, I see no Scripture supporting divorce if a spouse is truly repentant. The minute he strikes again, we know his repentance is a farce and immediate removal is warranted.
@@eurekahope5310 - She had a protective order against him, according to the article Allie Beth linked. We have to remember that the abuser was the one who destroyed his marriage when he chose to abuse. God does not expect a person to stay where her life, or her children's lives, may be in danger. That is a wrong application of Matthew 18.
The attack on MacArthur feels like devils work. What a time for his church to be attacked. Evil is being threatened by that church and this is the reason that something that happened back in 2002 is being brought to light in order to do them harm. The people within that church are sinners just like the rest of us and mistakes can take place as it seems happened in this situation. There is only one perfect one and His name is Jesus.
I think the trouble comes from MacArthur being so openly willing to publicly condemn other pastors and not willing to step up and publicly address this matter. He wasn't even directly involved with counseling the couple in question, it was another associate pastor who has since left the church, but it happened under his lead and he did publicly shame the woman, that is on tape. I say this as someone who has grown a great deal in my walk with Christ over the last few years directly as a result of following JM. I believe he is a faithful teacher and he's faithful to the Gospel. But as it's been pointed out, he is a sinner like the rest of us and he's not immune from being criticized and this scenario is worth looking at closely and not dismissing, as Allie said. It's unfortunate.
@@chelsae77 Ever since JM slammed trump after Biden was declared the winner of the 2020 election, saying that trump has been egotistical hence ending up sad and alone and the loser in the election is so wrong and judgmental, I have stopped following JM sermons. For the sake of a sermon, he lied and judged a good leader who has done so much for conservatives and Christians. Very disappointing especially when I had been following his sermons for years.
Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day praying for everyone everyday God bless you all.
So even if Macarthur didn't know the abuse was happening, I believe he shouldn't have called the woman out and humiliated her! He didn't have enough evidence one way or another to do that. I also don't like that certain pastors have a celebrity following, and there are so many people who put them on pedestals and won't ever admit that even the best, most sincere pastors are still humans who struggle against sin and who do things wrong just like everyone else. It's ok to not agree with a pastors stance on every non salvation issue as well. This story reeks of a pastoral staff that failed and hurt a woman and her kids because it was more convenient to stand behind "their guy" than do the necessary investigations. That's what it looks like to me. But I wasn't there and I don't know. But can we please stop idolizing other people, worship Jesus and study God's Word to be like the Bereans, verifying for out own selves if The Bible says what someone else says it says, in context with the entire Bible. It doesn't contradict itself.
Actually even the church staff admit in court documented testimony, they knew the wife and children were being abused. They told the wife that the husband was repentent and she needed to let him move back into prove he was a changed man. The wife wanted professional therapy for her husband before he moved back in. They said that was worldly.
I was homeless, got into drugs, went into prisons, then i got to know Jesus, He changed my life.. Now i have a home, a wife, a lovely daughter and a new identity... A child of God.. Hallelujah
This is really sad. See what happens when you don't get the whole story. Too many ppl listening to others who don't even know the whole story. We seriously have to pray for all involved.
David Gray admitted to GCC that he dressed inappropriately (wearing nothing but his underwear) around his girls. That alone is grooming if not outright sexual abuse. Even with that confession, they wanted Eileen to welcome him back to be alone with their children. Unreal.
How would anyone ever, feel safe counseling or confiding in a pastor, who is incredibly well known, who calls people out in front of a congregation of that size and that esteem. I cannot even imagine, I would never be willing to let any church leaders into my life because they could tell the entire congregation! Also, someone is pulling away from God, is not going to feel the conviction that he is intending, but instead see it as a public shaming. If anything, my friends on the edge of Christianity and the world would immediately jump to the world because they are clearly questioning the love of Christ. Holding someone accountable is an act of love, but nothing about McArthurs actions eem loving....so sad. Where in the Bible does this have backing?
Hopefully this helps. ““If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”” Matthew 18:15-20 ESV bible.com/bible/59/mat.18.15-20.ESV
@@eurekahope5310 we'll the problem is this is a sin filled world. We saw here what happened when McArthur acted too hastily before this situation had been handled adequately. Also, who is holding McArthur accountable? Did he follow every step scripture lays out? Clearly this was something in the process of being handled by the leaders.
@@michellegabriel2990 until McArthur has proof that he followed every step Jesus spoke, im going to question how this situation was handled. This situation was a mess and involved children, so the need for compassion is crucial, as well as a pairing with scripture first and foremost. Additionally, as a member of a congregation, it would be very intimidating to share private information with a pastor who is very famous and calls out his members in ways that are being questioned.
This journalist Roys has written 47 articles on Macarthur and not a one is positive. And the misleading title of the latest article speaks volumes to her character. She seems to have an obsessive interest in trying to hurt GTY ministries and Grace Community Church.
Check out Dear Woke Christian's channel... He's reviewing Redeeming the Feminine Soul by Roys... Pretty eye opening so far. Protestia is talking about what she says in that book... Julie Roys shouldn't be taken seriously, I don't think.
If John MacArthur and his team did no wrong then they shouldn’t worry about what is being said about them. If it’s true, they need To address it, repent and make amends to this mother and children.
And so since the church leadership (JM) Did Not know everything it would be very risky and prideful to get up at the pulpit and call out and excommunicate a person. No one seems to have listened to Ms Gray or asked "Why" she was so adamant about leaving her husband. And if he didnt know, now that he Does, was there ever a public apology given outloud to Ms Gray like her public excommunication?
No there was never a public apology, and she released a statement saying that she doesn’t expect one. She said to them she’s better off dead. The only response that has come out was from Phil Johnson who dismissed her story because it’s 20 years old and called victims of abuse that were speaking out screechers. Macarthur is heavily protected, and you will never get a response from him on anything.
Whether or not the church knew all the facts before publicly shaming this woman, I agree with the comments that say John McArthur should have been as quick to publicly admit his mistake and restore this woman and humble himself to apologize to her and her children as he was to shame her.
Allie: Jon Harris with the Conversations that Matter podcast has done a lot of digging on the Grace Community Church situation. I think you would find his treatment of the situation thorough, honest, and edifying.
Same, I have been sharing the link in the comments. I know it really changed my prospective on things, and I wish more people took time to dig deeper, jumping at conclusions can be so damaging
So what part justifies John MacArthur from publicly shaming Eileen Grey without bothering to speak to her first? How about the rapes at the college. How about there are many incidents going on in this church and college. Where there is smoke there is fire, come on now . WAKE UP!!!!
@@benjamincase1427 I watched the video and I also read the comments, and saw Jon interacting with a lot of the comments...excpet Julie Roys. After strongly insinuating that Roys was misrepresenting facts, she came into the comments and challenged him to show proof of any misrepresentation and Jon went radio silent, as if that comment didn't exist. I generally like Jon and appreciate much of what he does, but on this one he did a video that was meant to somehow exonerate McArthur and GCC and he had to slant things to do so. Jon doesn't claim to be a journalist, so he has a right to broadcast his positions (which is the point of the podcast), but we can't act as though he came to this in an unbiased manner because he didn't.
This issue of the church not knowing details before publicly calling someone to repentance is serious. We as the church are often too quick to rush to judgment on a whole host of issues. Lord help us take time to FULLY investigate a situation before we counsel and especially publicly call someone to repentance.
Maybe trust can never be repaired. I've never really seen any repentance on the part of these leaders who side with the abusers, though. If these leaders publicly repented, maybe true restoration could occur. That's a big IF, though. I won't hold my breath and wait for it to happen.
I do not understand, why the victim's parents (or victims) are going to the church for help in abuse cases especially if the abuse is happening in the church. As a parent, my first stop would be to my family doctor, then the police. What authority does the church have? The church cannot take legal action to prosecute these individuals. Now, I might understand doing through the church if the prosecutor did not take action, but really what is the churches role. Does the church have trained investigators? The church cannot just take the word of the victim as gospel, unfortunately people do lie. It is becoming more commonplace, only a few years ago, an allegation of abuse could end a career. The church has an obligation of due diligence to both the accuser and accused.
I dont know the case personally/closely. So its just a guess but for the impacted christian (if possible), they can bring it up to the church leadership (if the church is maturing their churchgoers on God's views on the matter and what steps can be taken to protect the victim party approaching them or suspected victim, .. if church can take the matter seriously by firmly dealing with it, not just rehash non applicable topics at that moment eg. on forgiveness, etc where this level of wrong/violence is concerned. Absolutely nothing unloving or hatefully unforgiving in grace-lessness about that!), ALSO report to police especially if that brings no change / if the perpetrator continues or the allegation is made of such! Nobody can really expect more than that really. If there be any righteous moral law of the land to apply, it is to apply. Spiritually speaking anyway, it ought be discernable who is submitted to the Lord and who isn't if people remove male/female biase and leader stationed or not lenses for starters and seek Godly wisdom what to do. We are not to judge by the outward appearances of anyone. THAT is a biblical principle Is a career more important than a life or lives of other? If the accuser is lying before God, it would fall back on her/him anyways in judgement/consequence. Yes God is love. A Just Love that redeems people, not hides evil deeds. Honest Godly conviction, honest Godly repentance, Honest justice/restitutions for the victim(s) as biblically sound, are the only working recipe for the victim (s) concerned to help their process of healing and reconciliation (only if possible/desired by the victim to her/his conscience). Im nobody special in this world. These are my feelings/thoughts for the churches who belong to Jesus.
One of John Mcarthurs weaknesses is that he does call out people without understanding everything. He is also petty at times. That is something I have heard him repent of at times. There are plenty of leaders who have made a huge impact in their ministry, but they slip, they make mistakes, they get blindsided. Yes it happens and its tempting to cover it up and move on. But there are people who are badly hurt which we cannot ignore. The church is unfortunately a factory of hurt at times.
Allie, I strongly advise you to listen to the episode of The Church Split podcast on the subject of John MacArthur's mishandling of Eileen Gray's abuse. They all knew she was being abused. We know this because she came to them first. They didn't want to hear about it, and it wasn't until later that she separated from him and got the police involved. The fact of the matter is, as her pastor, John MacArthur failed his one and only job, which is to defend the defenseless.
Allie, I greatly appreciate your willingness to talk about this issue in such a balanced and thoughtful way and not just dismiss it like many people are doing unfortunately. That demonstrates great integrity on your part. You are a huge Johnny Mac fan, yet you're willing to have intelligent and nuanced dialogue about this topic. I respect that. I see from your comments section, many people are recommending that you watch Jon Harris's video. I'd just like to add, after you watch his video, you should also check out the videos Ruslan KD did on this topic. He did an excellent job covering this issue and also directly interviewed Julie Roys.
Did you even read Julie Roy's article Allie? The article stated that the church fully knew of David Gray's physical abuse of his wife and children before they advised Eileen to stay in the marriage and then excommunicated her. Also, you forgot to mention that JMac church continued to support David Gray in prison and abandon Eileen even after David Gray was convicted of sexually abusing his children. You clearly did not read the article and it showed. Stop idolizing your favorite pastor and excusing any of their failures.
Is Julie Roy's article the only article on this case or include all the data? I do not know about you, but I would not trust Julie Roy, she herself has spiritual and emotional abused a female student as a ministry and even blamed the victim. How sick is that? Yet, she sits on her high horse calling out abuse? Hmmm
At the time I am making this comment, it is well after what went on. I am 89, so have seen, or witnessed many different things. I love God, His son our Lord Jesus Christ, and blessed Holy Spirit deeply. However, I cannot believe that God expects a woman who sees her children abused, as well as herself, to live with the abuser. Nor should she be urged to, or punished for getting out of the situation. Does anyone REALLY THINK that there is never a situation where a marriage should not exist any longer? It defies my thought and belief in God, that He would actually WANT a family to get up every day to possible abuse? Do you really believe He wants a helpless child subjected to that fear every day? This man will not magically change just because he is a favored "male". First, experience the life this woman and children endured. Walk in her shoes felling there was no way out, then tell me she should live with this man again.
Years later and we still don't know enough as outsiders to judge the actions of Macarthur and his church leadership. Yes, the church action looks very bad when you look at it from the view of Roys's information. And, yes, the lady abused suffered greatly. But we do need to be careful, as Allie Beth says. We don't know the whole story and never will because the church will not reveal what happened in private. I watched this hoping to find new information, but there is none.
Re: Hillsong Megan says it's "normal" to serve in the church. Yes, but not to be used up. I've witnessed abusive serving in church where the rich pastors would make a poor father with four children drive several pastors to airport at all hours, and using him to the point he left everything. When you build a machine as big as Hillsong, it takes hundreds of congregants to work tirelessly while the leadership lives their best life all tax free. I'm a solid Christian woman, but there is serving and there is abusive serving to where some of the servants at Hillsong felt suicidal, depressed, sleep deprived and used. Hillsong: Bring your tithe, your college tuition work tirelessly for free, watch me get rich. At the end of the day, it' was a big business with limousines, private planes and $10,000 hoodies. I also have witnessed a similar church have volunteers all the days of their conference and make them pay for the conference. They model themselves after Hillsong. The question is then who is actually FEEDING and TENDING the sheep. The sheep are feeding and tending the leaders. It's cringe!
Well, the fact that she was getting counseling in the first place, I assume she would have mentioned the abuse she was enduing?? So did they really not know he was abusive, at least with her?? Also, is it actually a sin to not reconcile? To remarry, yes, but to simply separate? I wasn’t aware being separated was a sin...
The Grays had a counseling session with a couple of the elders, who weren't actually qualified counselors. Yes, Eileen Gray made it clear that she and the kids were being abused, and then the husband admitted in front of the elders that he did in fact abuse them. He supposedly repented, and the elders told the wife to drop her restraining order and move back in with her husband. From court documents, neighbors caught the husband stalking his wife during their separation. The wife wanted real counseling for her husband before a reconciliation could happen, and the elders said no. Since she refused to go with her kids back into the home to live with her husband, GCC chose to ex-communicate her. And apparently the husband was the one who filed for divorce. This all happened within the same year; I don't understand how any abuser can truly demonstrate repentance in such a small span of time, and it concerns me that GCC would be okay with staking the wife and kids' safety on a "repentant" abuser's word that he's repented.
@@snopure And honestly, I would never reconcile with a man who harmed me and/or my children. I would forgive him as I am supposed to do, but I would never live with him again.
GCC employs a bad form of “counseling” called neuthetic counseling. Many conservative churches use it and I’ve only ever witnessed it result in abuse and consequences on the wrong party. Neuthetic counseling is supposedly biblical ethics but it just isn’t reality based and is applied theory, field tested on Guinea pig congregants, who are driven away from church as a result, sadly often permanently.
No, it's not a sin to not reconcile. Not sure why Mrs. Gray felt she had to have the church's permission. This was the 90's. Most women were waking up to the church's poor record on abusive men. If she hadn't put her own children at risk, I wouldn't care but she let her kids be abused?! All to please a church counselor? I find it absolutely amazing.
...Wait?... "we" need to be careful in "criticizing" a popular TV Pastor... ...clearly Pastor MacArthur didn't know enough to call the woman out publicly...frankly it sounds like he and Grace Church was whom needed to be much more "careful"...
Sounds to me like the WRONG ONE was called out. And also says to me he wasn't following the prompting of the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit knows the whole truth!
While I wholeheartedly abhor his incessant attacks against Pentecostalism and its foundational theology, as being both a "Pentecostal" and a heartfelt student of the Word of God, I do agree that Pastor John MacArthur has indeed exegeted the Word with honor and the utmost expect; and as a Man of God, I respect and pray for him.
Allie, You are a bit behind with the MacArthur story....... The writer of the article has already Agreed that Pastoe MacArthur did not know anything about the physical abuses. I skipped the hillsong doc and on here because I never believed in them after learning early on that hillsong ministries was a joke. I loved the Meghan Interview overall. What a sweet smart Woman.
If McArhur did not know about the physical abuse, there were other members of his staff who DID know, because the article Allie Beth linked states the leadership at McArhur's church contacted the woman several times to get her to drop her protective order against her husband. If McArhur did not know, then either he did not do his due diligence to check with the woman or his staff regarding the facts or, worse, his staff covered up what was going on and kept him in the dark. We have no evidence that McArhur's staff covered it up, however, so McArhur just should have done his due diligence before publicly shaming and shunning an abuse victim.
@@seeker4wisdom 100% on point. The way some people are defending John MacArthur by saying he didn't know anything about the situation is very disconcerting. I would be highly suspicious of any pastor that gets up and speaks to a situation he knows nothing about. Especially if he's calling out somebody for their sin without having a conversation with them at the very least.
@@seeker4wisdom Have you read anything lately??? The writer of the article ALREADY exonerated MacArthur. PLUS, The Record shows that the physical abuse was not found out till AFTER the Church Discipline. No system is perfect coming from Mankind..... go to BTWN's Channel, He knows more than I do.
I wish you two ladies would run for Congress. I was not raised SBC but rather Presbyterian. I heard from our nephew in El Salvador, a follower with his brother in law of the Masters' Program (?), that it was not for women. I thought maybe Dr. McArthur had not accepted women like you, such serious students of theology. Keep up the good work. I agree with what you have said, I think, even though I'm 75.
What's the worst is that when people blaspheme the Holy Spirit and the manifestations and miracles that really do occur. And because of one or two charlatans whole denominations (Baptist church for one) deny any tongues or healings or people worshipping with fervor etc...have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof. Remember Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come to us and "you will see many more miracles" you stifle the Holy Spirit and grieve Him against art in the church, dance, music etc... How much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.....THOSE WHO ASK.
this is why you have to do your own research. Ruslan has spoken on this issue, and this was not mentioned that the church didn't know about the full story of what was going on. That is a detail you cant just skip out on to shame a pastor. You have to give the full context of what happened.
John Mac Arthur did not shut down his church during lock downs. He has my highest respect for that and his conservative ideas. As a penecostal I love him even tho he’s a different denomination
I have respect for John McArthur generally and specifically for his courage during the lockdowns. However I do not listen to him. Many decades ago I heard his teaching about speaking in tongues and as a result stopped listening to him. He was rabidly against and completely dismissive of the gift of speaking in tongues. He can come off as arrogant & hard.
Only 5 minutes in but already my first thought is if there’s video of this woman being publicly called to repentance then I have a problem with that off the bat. Those things should be handled during a time in church that’s not recorded so that it can never be made public. That’s strictly a matter of members of that church and no one else should be privy to it.
Keep in mind that the allegations brought up against Grace community church by Julie Royce happened over 20 years ago. In addition Grace community was under investigation and found not to be guilty of any misconduct. “The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.” Proverbs 18:17 NASB1995 “There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.” Proverbs 14:12 NASB1995
The father of Eileen's children is in jail and was coming up for parole this year. That is a very appropriate time to revisit what he has done and the sincerity of any repentance and the truth of what really happened. If a sexual predator is let loose again there will be more victims. That is a statistical fact. Don't make this a petty argument about unfairly attacking MacArthur. That man isn't going to be the one suffering but he can sure do something to make sure children aren't abused by staff in his church and any other church by honestly addressing the questions and concerns.
As someone who went to hillsong as a student and who "served" there, I can 100 percent say they used and exploited people. It went beyond "serving". Having a student install a sprinkler system for a senior member of staff is not, in my opinion, serving others. Having students, who paid tuition to be there, pick up dry cleaning and do countless other errands and tasks that consumed their week goes beyond serving. When you are expecting people to devote the majority of their week to "serving" which is taking time from people making an actual living, you are exploiting people and it is 100 percent wrong.
They didn’t apologize at all. MacArthur did a sermon on Sunday where he cried persecution and claimed that all this coming out is nothing but Satanic attacks against his church. He doesn’t care another to the elders. And Eileen wasn’t expecting an apology from them. She said in their mind she’s as good as dead.
@@tyeishaleisure that's awful. I know they are saying "they didn't know" but quite frankly that does not mean they are not responsible for their actions. I'm sure there were red flags along the way. Plus, many are saying that she has been validated because child abuse has now been proven. How sad that she was not validated in her complaints during counseling sessions when she was being abused. Physical abuse is not the only abuse that calls for separation and divorce. I hope this incident will begin to shed some light on the abuse situation that is occurring more often that people realize among church members.
@@Dawn-tv1bk agree wholeheartedly. And actually, the only thing they didn’t know was the sexual abuse. They knew about the physical abuse. She was told to stay in the marriage to model to her children suffering for Christ. And unfortunately, this is not the only case of abuse within MacArthur‘s church. Allie didn’t talk about it, but Julie Royce published another story about a woman named Wendy who was molested by her father. Once again, the father held a position at John MacArthur‘s church. This man molested two of Wendy’s cousins with one of them only being seven years old, and he attempted to have oral sex with her. Macarthur tried to guilt trip Wendy by telling her that her father was sorry for molesting her and that he was a good Christian man. MacArthur in the elders allowed this guy to go to another church where he got a teenager pregnant and then married her. It’s pretty vile stuff. There’s also another story where a guy that was a predator kidnapped a girl, and the girl had to jump out of his moving vehicle to avoid being sexually assaulted. Again, this man held a position at Grace community Church. Julie Roys published this story shortly after publishing Wendy’s story. Macarthur and the elders of GCC failed in every one of these cases.
@@tyeishaleisure Hmmm. Makes one wonder doesn't it? Systemic issues stem from somewhere. Usually the top down. I sure hope not. It's still sad. Very sad.
She only didn’t know about the sexual abuse but the physical abuse yes she and the pastors KNEW. Mr. Gray repented for the abuse supposedly, and they thought she should reconcile without formal counseling. Should JM apologize ? Even if he didn’t know, should he humble himself now and apologize ? If you say no you’re not the kind of Christian I ever want to be around.
Thanks Alli for this episode. I give credit to JM for his courage to fight against covid tyranny. I started listening to some of his sermons on YT until I realized he is a strong proponents of calvinistic doctrine. However, he's done a good job in exposing the fallacy of WOF movement! But calvinsm is a very confusing system of belief. Thank God, he set me free from following a rigid calvinistic system! Thanks to Pastors like Dr. Frank Turek of cross examine, Dr Leighton Flower and many more, Dr. Andy Woods, and late Adrian Rogers❤ Jesus died for all! 2Cor. 5:14-15 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. -Romans 11:32 (ESV) God Calls All to Repent The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, -Acts 17:30 (ESV)
Why is the church on the carpet all the time? I refuse to sit and gossip about any of it. I literally am doing the complaint free world challenge (years late but 🤣). We need to stop letting the constant white noise of the media drive all our dialogue. The goodness of our God should be enough to discuss. Imho
Oh Allie, So glad I found you. What a fresh breath of God that flows through you. Thx You for your responsible reporting the truth. My famy has gone & gotten through incest. It is So Complicated. I'm 67 & we still as a Christian family marvel at God's ability to not only get us through but then to use us as compassionate believers to come along side others with a kind of compassion & faith in God's ability to get us through. 🙏 God is able & enemy would Li e to use it to tare us apart. Funny tare & the scripture of tares being planted in our good soil
I always love hearing from Megan Basham, and I love your absolute refusal to end an episode in despair! :) I also appreciate your willingness to start talking about the MacArthur story, even though it's a little too close to home for you. Thank you!
So do the court documents. They knew about the abuse, just possibly not the sexual abuse. It’s also a moot point since the church did not correct their errors even when they found out the full story.
@@lyds6382 Yes, a fact people conveniently ignore. The church counselor refused to file/accept the handwritten confession of abuse and wrote to the court in defense of David. Then long after the extent of his abuse including sexual abuse was known and David went to prison, they never apologized or walked back their defense of him nor apologized for excommunicating Eileen. Rather they still defended him and his later prison ministries in letters to the church. People could understand a possible mistake where the counselor hid crucial information and the Pastor was fed false information about the scenario, so long as he was contrite and admitted it was a tragic misunderstanding and he rushed to give a verdict. What's completely reprehensible and disqualifies MacArthur from ministry is his refusal to reconcile with someone he wronged or even show the barest hint of remorse or repentance.
Allie Beth, it seems you didn't actually read the full report by Julie Roys. It is clear that the pastors that Eileen went to for help at GCC DID know of the physical abuse. There are several parts of the article that make it clear they knew. MacArthur himself never tried to talk to Eileen to find out anything first hand. I'm extremely disappointed that someone like you would make such a huge mistake and broadcast it publicly and emphatically, defending people who abused the victims they were supposed to help.
Just because the husband repented in word doesn't mean he should immediately be trusted. John McArthur, I believe, is acting as a pharisee in this instance. I listen some to his preaching, but with a grain of salt. Nobody is perfect, especially those in positions of power, church or politics. Read the Bible yourself and talk to God about it. This happened somewhat to me with my first husband. Now there's a term for it - gaslighting -me and everyone else, even my family. It amazed me that 2 different pastors both just took my husband's word for it that he repented, even cried about it, and expected everything to be ok. At first I stayed because of my strong religious and social beliefs about divorce. Then I started to see things that made me afraid he might sadistically hurt our very young son. Of course no one believed me and I felt shame to tell the one pastor I told anyway, especially when he kind of blew it off. I decided to separate, then to finally divorce my husband. I told God I was sorry but if I was wrong to let me see some fruit of his repentance. To make an already long story kind of shorter, he remarried and horribly abused his 2 stepsons. At first the children were removed from the home, from their mother, when it was discovered by their grandmother. Their mother was asked by the social workers where was her mother's instinct, couldn't she sense something was wrong. He was evaluated by a family psychiatric team, by more than one person. The mother was told she should never allow him to be alone with their young daughter they had together and only in the presence of a trained/licensed person. He was charged and put on probation. I started reading a lot on abuse of children and I believe he showed signs of grooming his young daughter to sexually abuse her from things I was told later by her mother and what I had read. Of course I could be wrong. He never tried to see his daughter again and eventually he has died. My thought when I heard he passed was, Thank goodness, no more small helpless animals or children will suffer from him ever again. It is so horrible when no one believes you, thinks "there are 2 sides to every story" or that a lot of women lie vindictively about their husband. You know they probably think this, that you might even think it in if you were in their place and can't really prove what you know is true. It's like living and trying to navigate safely for you, and especially your child, in a kind of nightmare hell. I still very strongly believe in God and that Jesus is my Personal Savior. I think because I have believed this so strongly most of my life that I have constantly not only prayed, but also talked to Him about everything and read the Bible daily to stay as close in touch with Him as possible. I believe he helped me and my son get out safely overall. I'm just not so much into formal church anymore. Even if a pastor doesn't believe in divorce, he should care about the well being of those he councils. Before he tells a woman to go back to her abusive husband he should wait to see some fruit of the spirit of repentance, and even then he could be wrong and usually is. Rarely do people like that change so easily. The consequences if he is wrong can be horrible. While I was going through my ordeal I listened to the 700 Club (many years ago!) and Pat Robertson said, (my paraphrase) If a man abuses his wife then he has broken his covenant with his wife and is not really a true believer in Christ, therefore the wife can, if she wants to, leave the marriage without condemnation from God or anyone else. (The abuser can't leave, but the abused can choose to leave) I personally believe it is ultimately between the woman being abused and God. One thing I believe Jesus showed, besides the awesome act of dying for our sins, is compassion in applying the law to those hurting, unlike the pharisees. Like Jesus healing the man on the Sabbath.
Help out not trusted at all. Most abusers and child predators do not change. If I was in any sort of position I would never take repentance from a abuser or pedophile or predator seriously. If they do it once, they can do it again.
The Bible does NOT give a pastor the authority to excommunicate someone. Nor is it a sin for a woman to separate from her husband. MacArthur is the one who has clearly sinned, and it is not his first.
@@eurekahope5310 Matthew 18 gives the CONGREGATION the authority to excommunicate, not a cleric/prosecutor, not even the counsel of elders. There is no exception to this rule in Scripture, except a direct apostle's ruling in a case. The "before the assembly" step is supposed to be a trial, with witnesses (right there in the passage) where the accused can present their case and the whole assembly is the jury. He exceeded his authority. Purely. Simply. And quite aside from the procedural irregularity, the board and the pastor got the whole thing very wrong.
We would appreciate it deeply if anyone could pray for us our 11 year old daughter Candice is very sick she's seeing doctors test she desperately needs your prayers please pray for her recovery praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
I will pray!
I will pray for Candice Steve.
PRAYING 💪💪❤🙏
I just prayed for you Steve.🙏💖😇
Praying for her!
It seems like the burden should be on MacArthur and his leadership to know *all the facts* before publicly calling an abused woman to repentance and I cannot fathom why that wasn't done or what the excuse for that would be.
I would just like to share this:
th-cam.com/video/esPMcDsPR1Y/w-d-xo.html
because I agree, we need all the facts before we talk
It was actually the children who were being abused....I think
Do you know all of the details
Exactly. The fact that some are trying to defend macarthur by saying that he didn't know the situation personally, he was just acting on information from one of the deacons/elders is very disconcerting. He should not call out someone in sin publicly if he is operating out of hearsay.
@@kerryh5456 Julie Roys has twisted facts and timeline of events. She has no integrity in her journalism
Allie, my heart has been racing since the beginning of this video. I had a horrible situation happening in my marriage and I was continually advised by many leaders in the church, as well as family members, to stay in the marriage and be submissive. They KNEW there were some issues that needed to be dealt with, by my husband, and insisted I needed to stay, EVEN THOUGH HE REFUSED HELP!!
Something happened that forced me to leave with my children. The damage still lingers in all of us. NEVER EVER EVER hold a human, even someone with a wonderful ministry, to such standards that only Jesus could achieve!! Question anything that sounds out of line. None of us are so righteous that we can’t make grave errors! This poor woman deserves sincere apologies and support. Trust me, you have to have been in similar shoes to know the pain!!
I agree that it is our responsibility to question our leaders when thing sound out of line, but I also agree with Allie if the church did not facts then the church could not advise or assist her. Many victims of abuse are good at hiding the abuse, even to the people closely to them. Did John MacArthur know he was telling her to stay with her abusive husband? Had she sharing the truth with the church or any of the congregants? Or, was she asking without the telling the truth? I do know, and I do not know what was said behind closed doors or if anything. I do not believe we cannot look at the situation and make a decision with the information we have without having been in a similar situation. Many times being in a similar situation actually hinders us seeing all the facts because our only experience coloring our judgement. I do not understand why the apology, only if, he did not have all the facts. If he knew the facts, definitely an apology and a public apology. I do not understand holding him accountable for what he did not know and the lady did not share. Maybe that is my own pride showing, but from what I have read it does not seem like the church knew about the abuse then he knew her to stay with her husband.
Well said.
I agree 💯 w/you Michelle!
Well done for getting yourself and your children out of this situation no personl I have been married for 52 years and have been a Christian for 54 years so I have a lot of life experience do not allow any person to control your decisions the Bible says everyman shall give an account of himself to God so in my opinion he is the only one we need to obey no woman has to put up with abuse and her responsibility is to her children and I speak as a woman who had an abuser for a father so know the lasting affect of an abuser on a child pity some Pastors don't
Oh my gosh me too. My heart starts racing immediately. I had to beg a pastor to tell my ex-husband to leave the house. Beg.
John M publicly rebuked this woman. He should give a public apology.
The issue I have is as soon as the full truth came out about total gravity of the abuse towards the wife, the children and others GCC should have Repented and Restored the family. They should have lead the way and renounced everything that was said during that service and they need to do it publicly! Even if they weren’t told the full story at the time they now do know. And JM should hold his self and his leadership accountable and admit they made a grave mistake! Period! GCC and JM aren’t perfect and by them not responding not repenting and not restoring this family makes it look as if they think they are.
GCC hasn’t addressed the article ( not the journalist) if they had we would be able to find it. They are ignoring it which is wrong. They must be held to task!
More importantly JM should do it because he ALWAYS addresses others sins and he does it quickly and publicly without hesitation why should he not be expecting the same for himself?!
Please really think about that!
Amen!
Amen! Always ready to point his finger, but not quick to apologize.
Agree with everything you so eloquently stated here.
I think this is where I’m having a lot of issue with it too.
Agreed. No leader should be so idolised that he doesn't need to own up to his mistakes.
I'm glad you talked about John McArthur! I've been having a really hard time with this, especially after finding out about Ravi Zacharias last year.
But I think they _did_ know she was being abused. That was talked about in the counseling sessions. She was told she needed to 'submit' to' it in order to keep her marriage together to be obedient to Christ. This is nonsense since Jesus never told anyone to remain in an abusive relationship and we know he instructed men to love their wives as Christ loves the church. That never includes abuse.
I had friends that my husband and I were very close to. The husband was a minister who was a former drug addict. He had been clean for years before they met and they were a happy couple.
Unfortunately he relapsed and abuse behind closed doors began. She loved her husband and didn't know what to do. Finally she went to her church leadership and told them what was happening. He was counseled, released from his position and encouraged to get help. He didn't, and things got worse. My friend was devastated and had to call the pastors to intervene when he attacked her.
They showed up and called the police for her. Then they pulled her aside and told her it was time to go. My friends had two very young boys and the pastor told her they would grow up thinking this was how a man treats his wife. They were learning to be abusive and would expect their wives to forgive them and accept it.
It broke her heart but they separated and eventually divorced since he kept refusing help. And, though it hurt to see it, my husband and I were on her side and we were happy to know she had such wise pastors who put the respect for the Lord and protection of the innocent above appearances.
After a few years he was able to get clean again and they reconciled and remarried and they're happier than ever.
I say all that because how Grace Church handled the matter is polar opposite. They _knew_ he was abusive and yet told her to stay. They failed to protect her and her children and, to make things worse, they gave him another prominent position.
I wish JM would address this because I really like and admire him. Maybe he thinks he shouldn't have to say anything, but I _would_ like to hear his side of it because I see this as a real failing. And if he _didn't_ know and he just followed the recommendation of his pastoral staff, again, I see that as a failure because he should've investigated the matter for himself before calling someone out before the whole church.
This has been a long comment but that's my reasoning and I'm having a hard time not looking sideways at JM right now and really I hate feeling like that.
Thank you for sharing this. I definitely think we need to look into this further because it does appear quite...."sketchy"
Please consider Jon Harris's exhaustive take on this matter. His channel is "Conversations that Matter." He looks at the timeline, assumptions, and additional information. Before we judge consider we have only heard from those hostile to MacArthur and his church. Consider Proverbs 18:17
"In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines."
@@eurekahope5310 Yes, he did a really good job. David Morrill also did great work unraveling the timeline on this case.
@Eureka Hope, thank you! I'll definitely look at that info! I've been hoping to find _something_ from JM's side of things.
@@lydiabouts8572 Do you have a link to David's channel? I searched his name and didn't seem to find his channel. Thank you!
No matter the timeline, they should never publicly call someone out from the pulpit without knowing all the details.
Exactly
Though it sounds as though this chap MacArthur had done so before and yes it’s quite biblical. Terrifying but some people are that defiant. In other cultures this Christian practice is more acceptable .
Wouldn't one make sure they had all of the information before they accused someone in front of a whole body of people?
@@juniperwool I think there's a lot more that needs to come to light.
no-one knows if he had all details....so Paul publicly naming 8 flse teachers in one letter to Tim. was wrong; Luther was wrong to name the Pope and Rome CC as apostate -- was he supposed to go an visit him!
even at this late date, JohnMcArther should humble himself and PUBLICLY admit his wrong doing, ask for her forgiveness. This must have been devastating for her impressionable children!
@Jason Bourne Supposedly, he confessed to abusing their child and "repented". So, yes, they knew. From other Julie Roys reports, it sounds like counselors/pastors are trained to "preserve the marriage" over the body. That as Christians, bodily safety is a lesser concern than our Christian witness. If that's true--that they teach this--then it sounds like they're being consistent. They'd also say bringing in "the law" just makes things worse, what does the world know of God's ways. It's such a "high view" of the Bible, it leaves people out. I was raised in a similar environment--high view of the Word, women are to submit, etc. My mom "modeled suffering" for her kids, stayed with my dad until he threatened to kill my brother. My dad was an unbeliever until he was caught--someone said "no more"--at which point he had a "come to Jesus" moment, tears, repentance, even months of good behavior. But as soon as he thought he'd won, all that went away.
I'm 61 now. I have a super messed up relationship with "the church" and maybe any human Christian with "authority". This saga is of particular interest to me because my brother is a MacArthur devotee. I never could quite like Johnny Mac, maybe because my brother DID like him, almost seemed to blindly trust him. Abused kids grow up to be adults both looking for safety and unable to resist the familiarity of the abusive environment. (Often not even able to detect abuse, even though, as a cop, my brother arrested abusers all the time.) Satan has done brilliantly, making the Bible his tool. :-(
@@cindylutz7442 Conversations that Matter has excellent commentary along with links to court documents on this case. Very complicated and shows she did not come forward til much later. Also the physiologist who exam the children, their finding were blocked from being admitted. So you can exam for yourself the court records. Royce just came out apologizing for an inappropriate relationship she had with a female teenage she had under her in ministry that she outlines in her book. Royce is a liberal progressive who has written 48 articles trying to destroy John Macarthur especially since he told Beth Moore to go home. All of her previous articles have been disproved. She is not a credible source.
@Jason Bourne brother, her husband is RIGHT NOW serving a jail sentence for child abuse. It's been proven in the court of law that there was abuse. Whether MacArthur knew at the time or not, he's now been proven wrong, yet he still refuses to even acknowledge this situation, much less apologize.
@@richardcaraballo1185 Exactly! He is the very definition of "not practicing what he preaches". He should at the very least admit that he may have been wrong, but his pride won't even let him do that. I have listened to MacArthur for over 3 decades, and this is truly disturbing.
@@cindylutz7442 do not waste time watching John Harrises’s video. He’s Pro MacArthur, and all he does in his videos is slander and speculate when he’s got the evidence in front of him from the article. It would be a waste of your time. He’s pro MacArthur it will twist everything to make MacArthur out to be the good guy. Do not watch conversations that matter, protestia or BTW in. All of them are pro MacArthur and will not be objective.
This Macarthur situation is shedding much light on the evangelical problem of idolizing pastors. Worship God, not men.
Yes! Say it louder for the people in the back. I’ve seen idolatry of pastors before, but the idolatry of John MacArthur is outrageous and extreme. There’s a very cult like nature to it.
Eh, I don’t really see what JM did wrong? If he didn’t know then why is he to blame?
@@tyeishaleisure you sound triggered
Did McArthur even show this woman compassion but no she went through hell and was excommunicated really?
We pray yes but when people are going through things you need the support of what we call church.Are we really showing Jesus’s character when we are the victims of abuse.
Not knowing about the abuse towards the children is no reason to dismiss the abuse of the wife. Wouldn't she have at least been sharing the details of her own abuse during the counseling sessions? I sought counseling for my marriage while attending a Baptist church. My ex was very charming and appeared to be remorseful and repentant until we got home and the violence and verbal abuse would start up again as a form of punishment for what I shared. And much of what was shared during the sessions was dismissed by the pastor/counselor and chalked up to the run of the mill issues all couples have. The pastor even joked and said, "if God is calling you to be a doormat, then by all means be a doormat." I don't believe all churches are like this in handling dysfunction, abuse of power, and disputes among the people etc. but there is something I do believe God has his finger on and wants to clean up. Most of the responsibility for the relationship to work is placed on the victim to forgive... which is 100% necessary but the victimizer and those who have the authority to do anything about what's going on are often times not really held accountable for their role in the situation and required over time to show the fruit of repentance which is changed behavior. And as a disclaimer... I do see that some are using the churches junk as a political weapon and that's wrong. I just hope we can still work through what needs to change within the church regardless of how the world is responding and trying to use it.
They did know about the abuse against the children. The church and the wife didn't yet know about the sexual abuse that had happened, but they knew about the physical abuse, some of which David had even given a handwritten confession of. (Like calling his one daughter a dog, tying her up, making her eat from a dog bowl, partially suffocating her, etc.) But GCC wouldn't even file the handwritten confession and instead counseled the wife to forgive her husband, give him unsupervised access to the kids, and if any abuse still occurred against herself, she could example 'suffering for Jesus.'
@@jenairothnie8796 Wow..unbelievably sad.
The Pastor and the staff DID know that he was physically abusing her and her children. Her husband ADMITTED to the staff that he had suffocated one of the children on at least one occasion. The children were terrified of their father and told their mother that their dad was going to kill them. He had beaten the children on numerous occasions. The staff DID know. They still told her to stay with a man who was physically, mentally, and yes, later found out he was sexually abusing them What is a so called Pastor doing telling a woman who is terrified of her abusive husband to stay. We all know that abusers NEVER get better the abuse gets worse and worse. Its is NEVER right to counsel a abused wife/mother to stay with the abuser. There is no where in the Bible that says that a woman must stay in fact, it says that God hates divorce but he still provided the divorce so that in situations like this women can leave. The truth is the Southern Baptist church has covered up child sexual abuse and abuse of women for decades. There was a great article by the Houston Chronicle that there are over 700 plus victims of child sexual abuse, the pastors KNEW and instead hide the abuse from authorities and shipped those pedo pastors to other churches. There is no confusion with this story at all. He knew, he shamed this woman, and he should step down. That's how I feel.
Wow, I read something far different..... I am sure mistakes were made BUT I seriously doubt Pastor MacArthur Covered up Any Abuse of a Physical or Sexual Nature. But, again I was not there. Go To BTWN Channel He knows things more intimately. Allie said Records showed that it was not known till two years later ......GOD Knows that's all I definitely know. I also know that humans will pounce on someone before they actually really know what happened. Just look at our politics.....
@@solochristo65 one of the pastors of the church told Eileen gray to "suffer for Jesus" and they were arrested for failure to report which is the law in California. They were well aware of the what was happening.
I think that you explained the truth about the situation well!
The United States Department of Justice reported in 2017 that "school employee sexual misconduct, the sexual abuse and misconduct of K-12 students by school employees, is estimated to affect 10% of our nation’s students.” With a public school enrollment of about 50,000,000, that is about 5,000,000 children per year. The tragic abuse in the SBC averages 35 per year. My point? The media has spun this tragedy to suggest there is something special about the SBC that breeds or protects predators. By contrast, children are FAR safer in the SBC churches than the public school. Our standard should be zero abuse every year, but degeneracy is much more rampant and welcome outside the church. Please don't spread this narrative without considering how you are slandering an association of 14,000,000 for the actions of a few hundred deviants over 20 years.
Hmm, my reaction to this story is that it's probably not true. I don't think ANY woman, period, and certainly not a Christian mother would allow this. And then go to church to ask permission to separate from the husband? No, I just don't believe it. I believe some variation of it, but not this. You would have to be completely and utterly brainwashed or he was insane and she could not go to police, which I never heard. No mother allows their children to be smothered by their father and then stays. And I have serious issues with churches terrible teaching, training and discipline of young men/husbands over the years. But this particular story I don't believe is being reported truthfully.
What am I missing? Serious question. I agree that the church did not know about the sexual abuse until later but they did know that Gray was physically abusing the children. After all, that was the reason for the separation. He admitted it. To publicly excommunicate her for refusing to take the abuser back seems creepy.
Absolutely agree with you!
Not only that, he divorced her!
Yes .. may be something fishy with the entire church leadership hierarchy there
These things happen when our focus is on upholding and continuing an institution instead of Christ. And I mean that for ALL sides. Our churches are functioning as corporations instead of agents of change. We're fighting to maintain the status quo while the world is dying right outside our doors without Christ. Maybe it's time to rethink how we do church.
“The CHURCH is the ground and pillar of TRUTH”
1 Tim 3:15
The church is unchangeable
@@PInk77W1 But it SHOULD CHANGE.......
U know JMac and his staff may not have known all the details but they do now. And now that they do, they should offer this woman and her children an apology. It’s warranted. When my son was little, I made a bad judgment call on him and punished him for something I was told he did. Later on I found out the truth and profusely apologized to him. When we make a bad judgment call, regardless of the reasons, we need to take responsibility and try to make it right if possible. This whole thing is so unfortunate. Just my two cents for what it’s worth. Blessings.
sharing this here too, because I think it might explain why MacArthur is saying nothing:
th-cam.com/video/esPMcDsPR1Y/w-d-xo.html
Do we know he hasn’t?
@@dawngiles332 yes, the woman in question testifies to that and he refuses to speak in public about it. (he had no issue about speaking in public before about it, his shaming of the woman is on you tube).
@@dawngiles332 yes. He knew about it before so this is rather a moot point, but the whole world knows that he knew now and he still refuses to talk to her. When it came out publicly she called his office and he would not speak with her.
Yeah my mom did that to me too when I was little. It’s why I never hit my children as discipline.
The article provides evidence that they did know that there was at least physical abuse going on, they even encourage her that enduring the abuse is a way of “suffering for Christ”. John McArthur has been a blessing to my life but I think if he didn’t know all the details, if his elders failed to inform him and He still excommunicated her, then when He knew the extent of the story he should have publicly restore her as well.
THANK YOU! Usually Allie is pretty good, but I think she really dropped the ball on this one. I was left thinking “you DID read the article, right?”
@@amandarobertson3772 I would like to suggest this video:
th-cam.com/video/esPMcDsPR1Y/w-d-xo.html
it breaks down the timeline and gives a clearer view of what happened, that the article just doesn't give. I was left with a very different understanding of the situation after watching this, and actually reading more of the documents, than how I felt at first after just reading the article.
There has been many sexual abuse from the pastors and leaders of this church and they did nothing to these preachers but move them to another location 🤨🙄😡
So sad that the church did not look into the protection of the children. So quick to excommunicate but not fight for the truth for the abused.
Allie, it is verifiable from the documents that the elders at GCC DID know Gray was a child abuser (physical abuse, threatening to kill them etc). They did NOT know he was *sexually* abusing them. I think you are conflating the two in your comments.
Hmm thank you for this clarification. Let me look into this, and I can issue a public correction.
@@AllieBethStuckey Please talk to or watch Jon Harris take on his "Conversations that Matter" channel. He talks about the timeline, misinformation, and assumptions.
@@AllieBethStuckey Yes Jon Harris, and David Morrill.
I would caution (as a GCC member for almost a decade and personal acquaintance of many GCC elders and players in these stories) that Harris is wrong in his take. He mostly just wildly speculates.
@@shawnihensler1435 can you make an actual comment saying this? Many are reccommending his video. I believe you as no Macarthur defenders are correct. They just do everything to protect him.
If John did not know, have enough info, then why speak out? Pastor for 22 years here, would never have done that..
I have experienced the lack of care and the pressure given to those in abusive situations. Personally from John MacArthur's protege, Cary Hardy at Twin City Baptist Church. My abuser was handed an anger management book and I was told to do my wifely duty. So it does not surprise me at all about John MacArthur. Sick and twisted views putting marriage over the people in the marriage. It breaks my heart.
Thats terrible. :( Similar things happened at my church as well, at least over a decade ago, where several abused women weren't given help by the church and it was brushed over/covered-up (in one case the alleged abuser even left on staff for a couple years.) The women were the ones who ended up leaving the church while the men were not punished or held to any accountability process. I didn't find out about a few of those cases until later (as some ended up at a different local church I sometimes attended.)
The issue I have is that to this day, there's been no apology given to Ilene Gray for the public humiliation given to her from the pulpit by JMac. Perhaps he didn't know all the details at the time, and probably shouldn't have been so quick to discipline her, but as time has gone on it's pretty much been proven Mr. Gray is undoubtedly wrong, & church discipline was therefore wrongfully used on her. Yet to this day, JMac & the staff at GCC just keep it pushing like if nothing happened. Christianity is all about forgiveness and repentance, yet MacArthur's unwillingness to repent is troubling.
agree
Bear in mind also that Eileen Grey was excommunicated and 'shamed' twice on separate occasions- as if once isn't enough. She wanted to resign her church membership but they wouldn't allow it.
@@comm2190 this! Very cult like behavior. She wanted to leave but they excommunicate her instead. And the public shaming is so hard to watch. It makes me sick, especially when you consider they do it during communion which is supposed to be a time to reflect on Jesus and then they sing amazing grace on top of it. And Macarthur tells the congregation to treat Eileen as if she’s an unbeliever.
@@tyeishaleisure I think if I was Ilene, I would have said, "Forget You," to the Church and gone to a Battered Woman's Shelter for awhile...They let you bring your kids...I am.a born--again Christian BTW and I went through something similar and I/we had to leave in order to survive...I got tired of all that crap from my "ex." and I couldn't take it anymore...I know that Jesus understood all of that...He was a Man of Sorrows and acquainted with grief.......
The problem I have with the GCC timeline narrative is the point of Eileen (the victim) leaving the church, asking them to remove her from the roll, yet they had to excommunicate her. That's cult like.
Abusers don't change. The really good ones make "repentance" an art form.
Allie Beth, you say we have no way of knowing if McArthur knew about the abuse. The article you linked provides proof that the leadership of McArthur's church did know about the abuse because they wrote several letters to Eileen to try to get her to drop the Protective Order she had on her husband. It also states that McArthur's personal assistant told her she needed to model for her children what it means to "suffer for Jesus" when she went to them for help. Are we to honestly believe that the rest of the leadership knew about the abuse but John McArthur, himself, did not? The answer seems pretty obvious, if we are intellectually honest. It is our denial of the obvious facts, not those exposing evil, that are making the church look bad. This needs to stop.
Well said! Sadly, it was this issue, that GCC and JM are playing martyr about and refusing to face reality, combined with JM’s financial milking of his college/seminary to enrich his family (that nearly cost them their accreditation), which made us rule out Masters as an option for our high school grad, after we had been seriously looking at it as an option. I love JM’s preaching, but what is going on there otherwise is spiritually toxic, and has the appearance at very least of evil.
@@itsbaxter2 I wouldn't stay around for the preaching, if all this other junk was going on...There must be other good Churches.......
There is evidence that the church knew of his child abuse in2001. He supposedly “repented” so she was supposed to just go back to him. Good for her for protecting her children. She knew her husband better than anyone. They didn’t put any trust in her. John Mac Arthur staying silent about this to this day proves he is full of pride and wrong. He also contributed to the abuse of this woman.
John MacArthur is still writing letters to John Gray in prison encouraging him that he is suffering for the sake of Christ. The counselor at church also said it was her duty to submit to his abuse.
Source?
Whaaaat??? The counsellor said that?? How do you know? How can that be?? That's not the Bible I know!
I had the same experience in a Foursquare Gospel Church that my ex--husband and I attended in Oakland... He was beating the tar out of me and the "Assistant" Pastor told me that I had no "right" to leave the marriage... Eventually, my ex--husband told me he had bought a gun and he started to "man--handle" my son...I had to get out of there because I thought he would injure Daniel (our son)...We landed up staying at a Battered Woman's Shelter, but it was better than dying.......
Having read Roys' articles about John MacArthur a couple of times it is obvious to me that either Allie either HAS NOT read them, or her comprehension is lacking. She completely misses the fact that it was CLEAR that David Gray was physically abusing his wife and children at the time Eileen was publicly shamed at GCC. The sexual abuse came out later. And the events are very well documented, if you actually take the time to read them as I have. Please, get your facts straight before misleading your audience, Allie! The last thing we need as the people of God is more champions for those who oppress and abuse.
I absolutely agree. I'm usually a fan of Allies' show, but this one was shocking! I think it is just her age and naivety showing. To be fair, even older Christians find coercive control and manipulation that goes on in these marriages. I'm sure the woman's husband did a 'great' job of being narcissistic and convincing. Women should be listened to by churches. It seems that John McArthur hasn't got up to date!
I agree we can't dismiss accusations out of hand, but we can't assume John McArthur is 'innocent' just because he preaches the gospel. Remember Ravi Zacharias.
I thought the exact same thing, even though I have been a huge JM fan for many years.
Yikes! Is that a fair comparison? Ravi apparently abused numerous women and lead a double life. MacArthur believed his elders and apparently wrongly practiced church discipline on a woman. One is a lifestyle of sin, the other is an unfortunate case of poor discernment.
@@eurekahope5310 there's quite few (so far) examples of that "poor discernment" in GCC in the form of siding with and covering up abusers. Could that be a pattern/lifestyle?
@@eurekahope5310 and yet he refuses to admit he was wrong and support this women. He denies her request to withdraw membership. He and the church continue to be hostile to her
Before publicly calling her out they had a responsibility to do their due diligence and find out every single detail of what was happening. What they did was publicly embarrassed and shamed this woman without doing what they were supposed to do first. They are the ones that need to be publicly called out and brought to repentance!
I read the original article a few times, the one from the 8th of March.
But, it has been some time since the last time I read it.
But I believe it makes clear that she refused to take him back when they knew he had *physically abused* the children.
They didn't know that he had sexually abused them. But they did know he had *physically* abused him.
So the title of the article doesn't appear to me to be dishonest. And, I believe I knew this distinction *from* the article by Julie Roys.
Anyway, it does seem to me that John MacArthur made a mistake here. But it is also true that it appears he *didn't* know about the *sexual* abuse at the time, only the *physical* abuse.
But he *did* know about the physical abuse.
It seems to me a simple apology is in order here, and that might be all Eileen Gray wants.
Thank you!
Thank you. She actually release a state through Julie Royce and said that she doesn’t expect an apology because to them she may as well be dead. She stated that the reason she came out with her story it’s because she hopes that her story can help prevent this from happening again and could encourage other victims to come forward. Macarthur did indirectly respond during his service day and cried persecution and said that these were Satanic attacks on his church and ministry.
For the MacArthur church and any other church that finds itself with public repentance…I would think they would want all facts before doing something that has no love behind it. Feel for this poor mom and her children that was not getting support from their own church. Not sure that public repentance is really needed, helpful, or beneficial for anyone. In this case, the husband should have been outed for public repentance at a minimum!
Many pastors don't even realize how much they love money and power until they have it, then once they do, they will do anything to hold onto it, including lying and taking advantage of others.
It doesn’t matter what he and didn’t know at any given time. To call someone out in front of your congregation for a private sensitive matter ( whether you think it’s sinful or not) is abuse of your position as a pastor. If you are concerned about their spiritual well being you speak to them in private. If you think someone is in need of spiritual counseling why would you kick them out of your church??? I get the impression MacArthur is egotistical and this impairs his judgement.
That's biblical church discipline, bringing them before the church after they have talked to them privately. Matthew 18
@@iloveamerica64 No, it’s not.
@@iloveamerica64 GCC took a very legalistic approach to Matthew 18. Please consider what her supposed sin was, and then how it is that all the husband had to do was tell them he repented without being given time to demonstrate his repentance before they told the wife to drop her restraining order and go back to her husband. The timeframe between that initial counseling session in which the husband confessed and that church service in which the wife was excommunicated was less than a year -- if I remember correctly, it was only a little more than six months. Why does the husband get a free pass for his sins, but the wife and children have the dilemma of facing excommunication from their church or facing further abuse? It takes time for abusers to change, and while God does perform miracles, why didn't GCC err on the side of caution and shepherd the family appropriately, giving the time they needed to heal together if it was possible?
@@lornadoone8887 I’m sorry, but this is incorrect. There is a described procedure for church discipline in the Bible that involves public confrontation as the final step.
That doesn’t mean JM was right in how he handled it (I admit to being unaware of the details of this situation, so I offer no opinion on that matter generally). There are right and wrong ways to do things, and times to do a thing, and a time not to. The concept taken by itself, however, is biblical when applied correctly.
@@iloveamerica64 She wasn't "in sin" for having a protective order against her violent husband who had abused her and the kids. (And who was still violating that order repeatedly and stalking her.) It's not "church discipline" to tell a women that unless she lets her abusive husband back into the house immediately, she's unrepentant and will be excommunicated. And note she wasn't against her husband coming back *eventually* - she was demanding a process of professional counseling and actual accountability. Not a, 'welp he apologized but hey if he does it again you can suffer for Jesus' type approach.
Her *husband* was the one living in sin. (He's also the one that later divorced her! Not that the church rebuked him for that.)
Allie, It was enough that the man physically abused his wife. Telling a woman that she MUST reconcile with someone who abused her is never right. They told her that he repented. Only a person who lived with him could determine if his repentance is genuine and when sin is that damaging, there should be plenty of time for a track record of respect. I ask you to listen to all of the Roys reports that show a clear track record of mysoginy in the MacArthur organization, the 3/16/21 Roys Report “what’s the Truth about MacArthur and His Ministries” where Julie interviews ppl who worked at the seminary for many years. Time for JM to come down off his pedestal.
Ok but saying they didn’t know is a really poor excuse. There are many steps before excommunicating a member. If she was so adamant about not returning to her husband they should have asked themselves why. It should be one of the first questions they ask. I think it was a huge lack of discernment. Guaranteed the husband was a charming guy, and he was probably someone’s buddy on the board of elders. I do love John McAurthur’s stuff. I’m sure he was way too busy to even investigate a situation like this. But the “good ol boys club” mentality in the church needs to stop. It prevents men from having true repentance, and it endangers women.
Sadly this mentality also blinds is from truth. Women can be wrong as well.....
There's nothing worse than being scared all the time---Especially if you are scared of your own husband (or your "Pastor.")
I usually agree with your podcasts but without knowing all the details, it sounds to me like that the calling out of this woman borders on abusive. A wife not wanting to reconcile with her husband is much different than the one or two examples in the NT church ( I can think of Ananias and Sapphira and the man sleeping with his father’s wife). The first example was quite extreme and I can’t imagine that happening today. I don’t know if that is normative in His church but if it is, I just don’t see a strong precedent for calling out a member for this kind of thing in front of the whole body. That is like a last resort thing and imo for something much more damaging to the church as a whole.
Absolutely, you are correct. Modern religious groups that do this sort of thing are not following the NT Church.
Exactly 🎯🎯🎯
I just constantly get reminded to not elevate men, or put them on pedestals, because we all fall short. I wish Christians had more love for each other, and more grace, and that we just all strived to be like Jesus more and more each day. Myself included.
As someone who used to work as a family therapist, I have seen my share of church leadership taking the side of an abusive man and rapists fathers. The wreckage is unbelievable. A church in my city did a public shaming of a woman. It always seems to be a male pastor calling out a woman. He who is without sin, cast the first stone.
I know of 3 instances where the men weren’t physically abusive but emotionally abusive or neglectful. The pastors encouraged or suggested the women to leave & 1 did file for divorce, 1 left that particular church (the husband is not a believer) & the other is still married. I don’t know details to make judgments & I wasn’t close enough to the women to ask.
As someone who LOVES John MacArthur’s sermons and watched him very regularly for a time, I still will never understand people having a level of fanaticism over pastors (particularly theologically sound pastors) that would cloud their brains into thinking they are faultless and cannot possibly do something wrong while in the ministry. Creating celebrities out of generally decent pastors is no better than creating celebrities out of “pastors” that twist, misuse, and manipulate Scripture. Both make a fandom (can you believe it?!) from flawed people who are to be held accountable as leaders BECAUSE they are human. It lowers our guard. I get enjoying one particular pastor’s way of preaching over another, but practically idolizing the man is wrong. It seriously needs to stop. I haven’t done any research on this particular incident, but it sounds like JM wrongfully called someone out without having all the info, and that someone is being spiteful over it. Whatever the case may be (let’s say even if he is completely innocent in this matter), we aren’t to come to someone’s defense simply bc we like them. We are to use wisdom to determine the truth. And very few people on social media are willing to do that before writing an ignorant comment.
Amen!!!! My comment was similar.
Saying that you LOVE John McArthur's sermons strikes me as a certain level of fanaticism.
@@KJ-lb4tj We can't love when someone preaches the Word of God? I think everyone has had a sermon or group of sermons that have blessed them. Or people may like a teaching style of one particular preacher as it helps them understand the Word better.
@@KJ-lb4tj Loving God's Word beautifully explained is fanaticism?
I think part of the issue is that JM presents himself and his fellow calvinists as fully regenerated and they constantly talk about that regeneration in a light that makes it sound like they’ve been cured of sin. Every time I listen to one of his sermons he talks about the sin of the world in almost a way that excludes himself and his church. Just my opinion. I’ve listened to my fair share of sermons and talks from him and others in his theological camp.
Dear Allie, please consider watching Jon Harris's exhaustive study into the timeline, additional evidence, and the biases. Roys has written 47 articles to discredit MacArthur and we ought to consider both sides before judgement. Proverbs 18:17
"In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines"
First of all, it wasn’t only John MacArthur that excommunicated her. It was also his board of elders that made this decision. And they had access to more information about this situation than the media had. Also more information came out later the church didn’t know about.
When church discipline is being administered it is not an exact science. Sometimes the church has limited information about a situation, sometimes the discipline is too harsh and sometimes to lenient. Sometimes even an innocent party has been excommunicated. However, you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Grace Community Church made the best decision with the information they had at the time.
Exactly. This is an issue that should be planted firmly *within* that church, as it's impossible for us to know exactly the sequence of events taht led up to it. I might have more of a problem with his/their insistence that she take back an abusive man without *his* repentance. But in the end we don't know the real details, and while many will disagree with John's doctrine, his integrity as a literal Bible follower is unquestionable. I just don't see him going to that length without proper authority.
NHs. U
How about the fact that up until this all came out, Grace Community Church was paying the child molester wife abuser to do prison ministry?
Are we really going to say that after about 20 years, they still didn't have "all the information?"
@@nattyrf511 I think WE don't have all the information. Just saying:
th-cam.com/video/esPMcDsPR1Y/w-d-xo.html
Did MacArthur EVER apologize? Did he and his wealthy church make restitution for the damage that they did? I see no evidence of that.
If I have my facts right David Gray had already been fired from teaching at the church’s school for abusing his own kids when Eileen was counseled to let him move back into her home. She told the pastor from Grace Church that they needed to hire him back on to work with children before she allowed him to be around her own.
No. She didn’t want him working with children at all. When the church wanted him to work at the LA school district which is subsequently where he got arrested, she tried to get them to not do it, but since she has not filed her please report, they let him go to the Los Angeles school district where he molested some children. So no, she didn’t want him to be around children. I encourage you to read the article. Allie dismissed it, but the events arewell documented, andthere are links to videos and documents that correspond with the case. You can also find The article that states that David Gray was arrested just by doing a Google search.
@@tyeishaleisure yes you’re right. I’m aware that he had been arrested. She had asked that for rhetorical purposes.
@@veganbear3673 gotcha. I really wish Allie have done more research before making this video. All the information she needed is in the article she linked.
@@tyeishaleisure I agree. This is such a serious issue and I want to see more conservatives calling it out.
@@veganbear3673 agree. I wish Macarthur wasn’t treated like a god. The cult like defense of him is disturbing. I literally saw someone on Twitter say they’d defend him even if he committed murder. It’s disgusting. And his only response has been to cry persecution and say that this is just the satanic attack.
McArthur's church definitely knew there was physical abuse at the time of Eileen Gray's ex communication and they believed this husband and exalted Church leadership member had sincerely repented, and somehow that made everything hunky dory and Eileen should feel instantly safe and secure. There's something called the fruits of repentance that John the Baptist mentioned so it has strong biblical foundation that might have had something to do with why Eileen wasn't ready to just go bouncing back home in submission to her husband. But it's true the church didn't know nor apparently did Eileen know that her husband's problems extended to sexual abuse of the children yet. So wisdom and Eileen were vindicated by their children. It's unfortunate that you are late in responding to this story and though I'm glad you aren't dismissing it, others have already covered the more concerning details. Roys is not progressive. Ruslan had her on his YT channel and she explained her orthodox conservative beliefs. It's so easy to assume that when a woman is calling out the men of high esteem and power in the church on behalf of a woman who was protecting her children, the first thing we have to do is discredit the woman reporter. Hmm. I wonder why that still happens?
Thank God you understand. His followers are blindly defending him. Dr gene Kim already called out this on his video of John MacArthur
You left out the part where Eileen Gray was deposed and it was revealed she abused her children. She tied one of them up in the bed at night as discipline. I hope God has more mercy on us.
The little girl was hurting her siblings at night. They didn't know what to do , but considering the little girl was being sexually abused that is probably the reason she was lashing out pulling her hair and attacking siblings. The mother revoked her membership from this spiritually abusive church, that venerates fathers and demands the wife dutifully agree with her husband's discipline of children.
Everything is going to be alright very soon because God is in control while we await for our blessed Hope for our Lord and savior Jesus Christ is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
I grew up listening to John and GTY radio broadcasts since the early 70’s. I do know one thing that John MacArthur believes that the gifts of the Holy Spirit has “ceased” after the Apostolic era was over. “The gift of Discernment” is part of those so called “parting gifts”…..My wife and I have been used by the Spirit of God in counseling to break up an “unlawful union” between a couple who where going to get married. She was a Christian and he was not although he professed to be one. It turned out that they where living together and she got convicted in our prayer over their union and she decided to break up with him. He became very angry with her and verbally abused her where she ended up putting a restraining order on him! We did not know the underlying circumstances but the Holy Spirit did!
He saved her from this predator who was preying on her vulnerability.
I highly recommend the deep dive “Jon Harris from Conversations that matter “ did on the Julie Roy’s accusations of pastor John MacArthur. Julie has been on a vendetta to try to bring JMac down for years. I’m surprised Ally you weren’t familiar with who she is. I for one, do not believe GTY did anything wrong. Shame on Julie n her minion’s.
As someone who attended GCC for almost a decade and knows several elders There personally, Jon got a lot of things very wrong. If you pay attention to his commentary, it is almost 100% conjecture.
Agree, she doesn’t like anyone who calls out female pastors. This has been covered and answered repeatedly and I find it interesting who keeps bringing this back up.
@@shawnihensler1435 People will always give validity to the person that supports their bias. I’ve noticed how people are discouraging others from other content creators and pointing them to Jon Harris instead. What makes Jon more credible than someone else that may not align with their theological camp ?
@@strivin4excellence09 I have been following John Harris for a long time and I'm a big fan of his podcast. However, I think he has this John macarthur thing wrong. I think his opinion is clouded by his esteem for John MacArthur. Like @Shawni Hensler stated, his take is a lot of conjecture and assumptions
Having been raised in John MacArthur denomination and going to a Christian school connected to our church...
This ignorance (or lack of attempt to understand abuse - any abuse, mental, verbal, other of woman) is pervasive. As well...the demand that woman submit EVEN when the husband has a ROTTEN DISPOSITION is the greater call of repentance...rather than Pastors snatch that man up by the back of his neck and straighten that chump out...and TELL THAT MAN TO GET UP - IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH AND REPENT FOR YOUR INDECENT & ROTTEN BEHAVIOR TOWARDS YOUR WIFE - AN CAUSING AN UNGODLY HOME.
This man worked for the church. MacArthur didn't want to know ANY of the true story or full story - because it would reflect on him....and he was too arrogant to be the Shepherd commanded of him.
When you are a pastor...who walks in and asserts arrogance...you can have a whole life of ministry but God will allow your unloving, unprotecting arrogance ruin your whole ministry. It wasn't God's arrogance - it was his arrogance. The fundamental church needs badly to get immersed in the Holy Spirit...because they have no ability to act like anything but narcissist.
Clearly why in last days, God will judge the churches.
There is only one church.
And John MacArthur has nothing to do with it
That makes zero sense.
Other than to say...
Men are failing the one church body.
Men have become unfaithful, unloving & abrasive.
and still pointing at that woman you gave me.
Woman of the last 25yrs do not even recognize Loving, Tender or Patient Godliness in men. There are no Martha Washingtons....because there are no George Washington's. The Leaders & Men of the church have so traded Godliness, Holiness, Sanctification, Obedience, Sacrifice for Arrogance & Power & continue to overtly or covertly blame woman for whatever sensation - that can be thought up - to deflect away from their disobedient dispositions.
The last 20yrs...woman are constantly now told (because before in the 80s we were all burning our bras right? Except all us girls in youth group looked around church...and our mothers were sitting right there, having got up at 5am to make a casserole for supper on the grounds for all those men Blaming us for burning our bras, not respecting husbands, wanting your place).
That just caused 50% divorce as men increased abuse.
* Now woman are told "your just too emotional" " Your mother is just so emotional". " If your going to have an emotional conversation & not a reasonable conversation, then were ending this conversation".
Congradulations....now you have a self fulfilling prophesy...woman are masculine, your CHURCH daughters are masscine & use F bomb like any man.
Our daughters have sex here or there, with this or that, why? Not for emotional connection as God created.
No, she's not suppose to have any emotions right?
So that's just One Product of covertly attacking nature.
Newest product in mass numbers....the CHURCH sons of Men of the church are all now on you tube, snap chat, what's app, tik tok, proudly pronouncing their bisexual or transgender nature.
In the 80s & 90s, the church Pastors & Men Overtly Attacksc Woman such as (McArthur did in his public rebuke). But now woman are covertly attacked.
Men watch movies where woman are fighting a man..kicking his butt (for entertainment) or, men continue watching thru sex scenes or continue watching with whatever vulgarity is lashed through our home & woman are called horrifying cuss words.
Because woman are shown now as sexually masculine.
They participate in this entertainment sons & daughters present or football, sports with TV commercials just blazing across the screen same as mentioned above.
Men have led church & family into utter confusion.
Mom is not to be emotional, girls should be masculine. Mom is the target of all the failures of men.
Instead of men get up & go save your church and country from Unrighteousness & Ungodliness.
So...thats that.
God will judge the Carnality, Self Centerdness, Selfishness, Unfaithfulness, Disobedience, Unrighteousness, Impatiatient, Unloving, Un-tender, Cheating, Entitled, Ungodly, Shift Blaming Men of The One Church & Men have everything to do with it.
It's time for the church to preach Sin & Repentance.
Matter of fact, woman should stay home & get her chores done & let men get themselves to the church & to the alter (again) to pray (maybe even fast & pray).
Problem is...the church would be empty.
@@jagmom5164 Wow...okay.......
I’m a conservative Christian and do know that the Bible says we are to be accountable to each other as Christians and that, yes, you can call out someone’s sin in a group of other believers in order to help them repent. However, I’m uncomfortable with the fact that he called her out in front of a whole church full of people. It doesn’t sound right. I don’t know exactly how I feel about that but I guess, honestly, I don’t think he should have done it that way. If they guy was abusing her and the kids, she needs to go.
It’s a misunderstanding and misapplication of Scripture.
As the child of a mom who was counseled by her church leaders to "just submit better" I have never felt right about John MacArthur. I'm assured that stories I hear are out of context, that he is beloved by everyone and there's just no way--well sure, he's human but he's a superior sort of human. I guess. For me, to me, and I've been around the block a few times, that is the template for abuse. Sadly, these stories don't come as a shock to me.
Please read Matthew 18. They had a year of counseling and (apparently falsely) believed that her husband was truly repentant. As Christians we are called to forgive. As to the abuse of the children, the wife admitted that they were both heavy handed in their discipline. There was NO mention of molestation. As Believers we can divorce for infidelity and when an unbelieving spouse asks to divorce. While it may not be culturally popular, I see no Scripture supporting divorce if a spouse is truly repentant. The minute he strikes again, we know his repentance is a farce and immediate removal is warranted.
@@eurekahope5310 - She had a protective order against him, according to the article Allie Beth linked. We have to remember that the abuser was the one who destroyed his marriage when he chose to abuse. God does not expect a person to stay where her life, or her children's lives, may be in danger. That is a wrong application of Matthew 18.
The attack on MacArthur feels like devils work. What a time for his church to be attacked. Evil is being threatened by that church and this is the reason that something that happened back in 2002 is being brought to light in order to do them harm. The people within that church are sinners just like the rest of us and mistakes can take place as it seems happened in this situation. There is only one perfect one and His name is Jesus.
Amen!!
No. He’s being held accountable (barely) and should be. It needs to be brought to light.
It's become public now because the children are grown. That's why the recent revelations about something that happened so long ago.
I think the trouble comes from MacArthur being so openly willing to publicly condemn other pastors and not willing to step up and publicly address this matter. He wasn't even directly involved with counseling the couple in question, it was another associate pastor who has since left the church, but it happened under his lead and he did publicly shame the woman, that is on tape. I say this as someone who has grown a great deal in my walk with Christ over the last few years directly as a result of following JM. I believe he is a faithful teacher and he's faithful to the Gospel. But as it's been pointed out, he is a sinner like the rest of us and he's not immune from being criticized and this scenario is worth looking at closely and not dismissing, as Allie said. It's unfortunate.
@@chelsae77 Ever since JM slammed trump after Biden was declared the winner of the 2020 election, saying that trump has been egotistical hence ending up sad and alone and the loser in the election is so wrong and judgmental, I have stopped following JM sermons. For the sake of a sermon, he lied and judged a good leader who has done so much for conservatives and Christians. Very disappointing especially when I had been following his sermons for years.
Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day praying for everyone everyday God bless you all.
So even if Macarthur didn't know the abuse was happening, I believe he shouldn't have called the woman out and humiliated her! He didn't have enough evidence one way or another to do that. I also don't like that certain pastors have a celebrity following, and there are so many people who put them on pedestals and won't ever admit that even the best, most sincere pastors are still humans who struggle against sin and who do things wrong just like everyone else. It's ok to not agree with a pastors stance on every non salvation issue as well. This story reeks of a pastoral staff that failed and hurt a woman and her kids because it was more convenient to stand behind "their guy" than do the necessary investigations. That's what it looks like to me. But I wasn't there and I don't know. But can we please stop idolizing other people, worship Jesus and study God's Word to be like the Bereans, verifying for out own selves if The Bible says what someone else says it says, in context with the entire Bible. It doesn't contradict itself.
Actually even the church staff admit in court documented testimony, they knew the wife and children were being abused. They told the wife that the husband was repentent and she needed to let him move back into prove he was a changed man. The wife wanted professional therapy for her husband before he moved back in. They said that was worldly.
Jennifer Buck is a lovely lady and dear sister in Christ. Thank you for sharing her side of the story.
I was homeless, got into drugs, went into prisons, then i got to know Jesus, He changed my life.. Now i have a home, a wife, a lovely daughter and a new identity... A child of God.. Hallelujah
This is really sad. See what happens when you don't get the whole story. Too many ppl listening to others who don't even know the whole story. We seriously have to pray for all involved.
Not sure the specifics of your comment so just wanted to share this. Hope it helps. th-cam.com/video/kMmspdHl8nU/w-d-xo.html
David Gray admitted to GCC that he dressed inappropriately (wearing nothing but his underwear) around his girls. That alone is grooming if not outright sexual abuse. Even with that confession, they wanted Eileen to welcome him back to be alone with their children. Unreal.
How would anyone ever, feel safe counseling or confiding in a pastor, who is incredibly well known, who calls people out in front of a congregation of that size and that esteem. I cannot even imagine, I would never be willing to let any church leaders into my life because they could tell the entire congregation! Also, someone is pulling away from God, is not going to feel the conviction that he is intending, but instead see it as a public shaming. If anything, my friends on the edge of Christianity and the world would immediately jump to the world because they are clearly questioning the love of Christ. Holding someone accountable is an act of love, but nothing about McArthurs actions eem loving....so sad. Where in the Bible does this have backing?
Matthew 18
Hopefully this helps.
““If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.””
Matthew 18:15-20 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/mat.18.15-20.ESV
@@michellegabriel2990 Thank you. There are feelings and there is Scripture. Only one is completely reliable and it isn't feelings.
@@eurekahope5310 we'll the problem is this is a sin filled world. We saw here what happened when McArthur acted too hastily before this situation had been handled adequately. Also, who is holding McArthur accountable? Did he follow every step scripture lays out? Clearly this was something in the process of being handled by the leaders.
@@michellegabriel2990 until McArthur has proof that he followed every step Jesus spoke, im going to question how this situation was handled. This situation was a mess and involved children, so the need for compassion is crucial, as well as a pairing with scripture first and foremost. Additionally, as a member of a congregation, it would be very intimidating to share private information with a pastor who is very famous and calls out his members in ways that are being questioned.
This journalist Roys has written 47 articles on Macarthur and not a one is positive. And the misleading title of the latest article speaks volumes to her character. She seems to have an obsessive interest in trying to hurt GTY ministries and Grace Community Church.
Her latest attack was also easily debunked by "Protestia."
Check out Dear Woke Christian's channel... He's reviewing Redeeming the Feminine Soul by Roys... Pretty eye opening so far. Protestia is talking about what she says in that book... Julie Roys shouldn't be taken seriously, I don't think.
@@Raya-ir4tm As far as I understand, there's statements that it happened.
If John MacArthur and his team did no wrong then they shouldn’t worry about what is being said about them. If it’s true, they need To address it, repent and make amends to this mother and children.
@@Raya-ir4tm yes she should. The husband actually confessed.
And so since the church leadership (JM) Did Not know everything it would be very risky and prideful to get up at the pulpit and call out and excommunicate a person. No one seems to have listened to Ms Gray or asked "Why" she was so adamant about leaving her husband. And if he didnt know, now that he Does, was there ever a public apology given outloud to Ms Gray like her public excommunication?
No there was never a public apology, and she released a statement saying that she doesn’t expect one. She said to them she’s better off dead. The only response that has come out was from Phil Johnson who dismissed her story because it’s 20 years old and called victims of abuse that were speaking out screechers. Macarthur is heavily protected, and you will never get a response from him on anything.
The whole "Maybe they didn't know" excuse is pathetic. They had a responsibility to know. Like knowing the speed limit if you're behind the wheel.
Whether or not the church knew all the facts before publicly shaming this woman, I agree with the comments that say John McArthur should have been as quick to publicly admit his mistake and restore this woman and humble himself to apologize to her and her children as he was to shame her.
Allie: Jon Harris with the Conversations that Matter podcast has done a lot of digging on the Grace Community Church situation. I think you would find his treatment of the situation thorough, honest, and edifying.
Came here to say this
Same, I have been sharing the link in the comments. I know it really changed my prospective on things, and I wish more people took time to dig deeper, jumping at conclusions can be so damaging
So what part justifies John MacArthur from publicly shaming Eileen Grey without bothering to speak to her first? How about the rapes at the college. How about there are many incidents going on in this church and college. Where there is smoke there is fire, come on now . WAKE UP!!!!
@@ceciliaramos2280 It would be wise to listen to Jon Harris before you speak presumptuously.
@@benjamincase1427 I watched the video and I also read the comments, and saw Jon interacting with a lot of the comments...excpet Julie Roys. After strongly insinuating that Roys was misrepresenting facts, she came into the comments and challenged him to show proof of any misrepresentation and Jon went radio silent, as if that comment didn't exist. I generally like Jon and appreciate much of what he does, but on this one he did a video that was meant to somehow exonerate McArthur and GCC and he had to slant things to do so. Jon doesn't claim to be a journalist, so he has a right to broadcast his positions (which is the point of the podcast), but we can't act as though he came to this in an unbiased manner because he didn't.
Julie Roy’s never claimed JM was a prosperity preacher. She pointed out his opulent wealth, those in glass houses ……
Yeah, he takes FOUR FT salaries and his son also paid extravagantly!
This issue of the church not knowing details before publicly calling someone to repentance is serious. We as the church are often too quick to rush to judgment on a whole host of issues. Lord help us take time to FULLY investigate a situation before we counsel and especially publicly call someone to repentance.
I know the Bucks and they are incredible folks and faithful followers of Christ
I have seen many women be told by different church’s to go back to an abuser.
Once trust is broken it is impossible to repair ... the pain of broken trust is so deep 💔 Only Christ can heal those wounds
Maybe trust can never be repaired. I've never really seen any repentance on the part of these leaders who side with the abusers, though. If these leaders publicly repented, maybe true restoration could occur. That's a big IF, though. I won't hold my breath and wait for it to happen.
I do not understand, why the victim's parents (or victims) are going to the church for help in abuse cases especially if the abuse is happening in the church. As a parent, my first stop would be to my family doctor, then the police. What authority does the church have? The church cannot take legal action to prosecute these individuals. Now, I might understand doing through the church if the prosecutor did not take action, but really what is the churches role. Does the church have trained investigators? The church cannot just take the word of the victim as gospel, unfortunately people do lie. It is becoming more commonplace, only a few years ago, an allegation of abuse could end a career. The church has an obligation of due diligence to both the accuser and accused.
I dont know the case personally/closely. So its just a guess but for the impacted christian (if possible), they can bring it up to the church leadership (if the church is maturing their churchgoers on God's views on the matter and what steps can be taken to protect the victim party approaching them or suspected victim, .. if church can take the matter seriously by firmly dealing with it, not just rehash non applicable topics at that moment eg. on forgiveness, etc where this level of wrong/violence is concerned.
Absolutely nothing unloving or hatefully unforgiving in grace-lessness about that!), ALSO report to police especially if that brings no change / if the perpetrator continues or the allegation is made of such!
Nobody can really expect more than that really. If there be any righteous moral law of the land to apply, it is to apply. Spiritually speaking anyway, it ought be discernable who is submitted to the Lord and who isn't if people remove male/female biase and leader stationed or not lenses for starters and seek Godly wisdom what to do. We are not to judge by the outward appearances of anyone. THAT is a biblical principle
Is a career more important than a life or lives of other?
If the accuser is lying before God, it would fall back on her/him anyways in judgement/consequence. Yes God is love. A Just Love that redeems people, not hides evil deeds. Honest Godly conviction, honest Godly repentance, Honest justice/restitutions for the victim(s) as biblically sound, are the only working recipe for the victim (s) concerned to help their process of healing and reconciliation (only if possible/desired by the victim to her/his conscience).
Im nobody special in this world. These are my feelings/thoughts for the churches who belong to Jesus.
One of John Mcarthurs weaknesses is that he does call out people without understanding everything. He is also petty at times. That is something I have heard him repent of at times. There are plenty of leaders who have made a huge impact in their ministry, but they slip, they make mistakes, they get blindsided. Yes it happens and its tempting to cover it up and move on. But there are people who are badly hurt which we cannot ignore. The church is unfortunately a factory of hurt at times.
Allie, I strongly advise you to listen to the episode of The Church Split podcast on the subject of John MacArthur's mishandling of Eileen Gray's abuse. They all knew she was being abused. We know this because she came to them first. They didn't want to hear about it, and it wasn't until later that she separated from him and got the police involved. The fact of the matter is, as her pastor, John MacArthur failed his one and only job, which is to defend the defenseless.
Allie Beth, although I'm strongly against Calvinism, I'm always excited to see your next video. I
So much respect for Megan Basham, thank you for having her on!
Allie, I greatly appreciate your willingness to talk about this issue in such a balanced and thoughtful way and not just dismiss it like many people are doing unfortunately. That demonstrates great integrity on your part. You are a huge Johnny Mac fan, yet you're willing to have intelligent and nuanced dialogue about this topic. I respect that. I see from your comments section, many people are recommending that you watch Jon Harris's video. I'd just like to add, after you watch his video, you should also check out the videos Ruslan KD did on this topic. He did an excellent job covering this issue and also directly interviewed Julie Roys.
th-cam.com/video/kMmspdHl8nU/w-d-xo.html
Check this out before you give her an integrity award.
Did you even read Julie Roy's article Allie? The article stated that the church fully knew of David Gray's physical abuse of his wife and children before they advised Eileen to stay in the marriage and then excommunicated her. Also, you forgot to mention that JMac church continued to support David Gray in prison and abandon Eileen even after David Gray was convicted of sexually abusing his children. You clearly did not read the article and it showed. Stop idolizing your favorite pastor and excusing any of their failures.
Is Julie Roy's article the only article on this case or include all the data? I do not know about you, but I would not trust Julie Roy, she herself has spiritual and emotional abused a female student as a ministry and even blamed the victim. How sick is that? Yet, she sits on her high horse calling out abuse? Hmmm
At the time I am making this comment, it is well after what went on. I am 89, so have seen, or witnessed many different things. I love God, His son our Lord Jesus Christ, and blessed Holy Spirit deeply. However, I cannot believe that God expects a woman who sees her children abused, as well as herself, to live with the abuser. Nor should she be urged to, or punished for getting out of the situation. Does anyone REALLY THINK that there is never a situation where a marriage should not exist any longer? It defies my thought and belief in God, that He would actually WANT a family to get up every day to possible abuse? Do you really believe He wants a helpless child subjected to that fear every day? This man will not magically change just because he is a favored "male". First, experience the life this woman and children endured. Walk in her shoes felling there was no way out, then tell me she should live with this man again.
Years later and we still don't know enough as outsiders to judge the actions of Macarthur and his church leadership. Yes, the church action looks very bad when you look at it from the view of Roys's information. And, yes, the lady abused suffered greatly. But we do need to be careful, as Allie Beth says. We don't know the whole story and never will because the church will not reveal what happened in private. I watched this hoping to find new information, but there is none.
Re: Hillsong Megan says it's "normal" to serve in the church. Yes, but not to be used up. I've witnessed abusive serving in church where the rich pastors would make a poor father with four children drive several pastors to airport at all hours, and using him to the point he left everything. When you build a machine as big as Hillsong, it takes hundreds of congregants to work tirelessly while the leadership lives their best life all tax free. I'm a solid Christian woman, but there is serving and there is abusive serving to where some of the servants at Hillsong felt suicidal, depressed, sleep deprived and used. Hillsong: Bring your tithe, your college tuition work tirelessly for free, watch me get rich. At the end of the day, it' was a big business with limousines, private planes and $10,000 hoodies. I also have witnessed a similar church have volunteers all the days of their conference and make them pay for the conference. They model themselves after Hillsong. The question is then who is actually FEEDING and TENDING the sheep. The sheep are feeding and tending the leaders. It's cringe!
The hireling in Jesus' parable.
Well, the fact that she was getting counseling in the first place, I assume she would have mentioned the abuse she was enduing?? So did they really not know he was abusive, at least with her??
Also, is it actually a sin to not reconcile? To remarry, yes, but to simply separate? I wasn’t aware being separated was a sin...
The Grays had a counseling session with a couple of the elders, who weren't actually qualified counselors. Yes, Eileen Gray made it clear that she and the kids were being abused, and then the husband admitted in front of the elders that he did in fact abuse them. He supposedly repented, and the elders told the wife to drop her restraining order and move back in with her husband. From court documents, neighbors caught the husband stalking his wife during their separation. The wife wanted real counseling for her husband before a reconciliation could happen, and the elders said no. Since she refused to go with her kids back into the home to live with her husband, GCC chose to ex-communicate her. And apparently the husband was the one who filed for divorce. This all happened within the same year; I don't understand how any abuser can truly demonstrate repentance in such a small span of time, and it concerns me that GCC would be okay with staking the wife and kids' safety on a "repentant" abuser's word that he's repented.
@@snopure And honestly, I would never reconcile with a man who harmed me and/or my children. I would forgive him as I am supposed to do, but I would never live with him again.
GCC employs a bad form of “counseling” called neuthetic counseling. Many conservative churches use it and I’ve only ever witnessed it result in abuse and consequences on the wrong party. Neuthetic counseling is supposedly biblical ethics but it just isn’t reality based and is applied theory, field tested on Guinea pig congregants, who are driven away from church as a result, sadly often permanently.
No, it's not a sin to not reconcile. Not sure why Mrs. Gray felt she had to have the church's permission. This was the 90's. Most women were waking up to the church's poor record on abusive men. If she hadn't put her own children at risk, I wouldn't care but she let her kids be abused?! All to please a church counselor? I find it absolutely amazing.
@@sspicer549 that's how abuse victims' mind works unfortunately. It's not the first, nor last case of "going back to their abuser"
...Wait?... "we" need to be careful in "criticizing" a popular TV Pastor...
...clearly Pastor MacArthur didn't know enough to call the woman out publicly...frankly it sounds like he and Grace Church was whom needed to be much more "careful"...
Sounds to me like the WRONG ONE was called out. And also says to me he wasn't following the prompting of the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit knows the whole truth!
While I wholeheartedly abhor his incessant attacks against Pentecostalism and its foundational theology, as being both a "Pentecostal" and a heartfelt student of the Word of God, I do agree that Pastor John MacArthur has indeed exegeted the Word with honor and the utmost expect; and as a Man of God, I respect and pray for him.
Allie, You are a bit behind with the MacArthur story....... The writer of the article has already Agreed that Pastoe MacArthur did not know anything about the physical abuses. I skipped the hillsong doc and on here because I never believed in them after learning early on that hillsong ministries was a joke. I loved the Meghan Interview overall. What a sweet smart Woman.
If McArhur did not know about the physical abuse, there were other members of his staff who DID know, because the article Allie Beth linked states the leadership at McArhur's church contacted the woman several times to get her to drop her protective order against her husband. If McArhur did not know, then either he did not do his due diligence to check with the woman or his staff regarding the facts or, worse, his staff covered up what was going on and kept him in the dark. We have no evidence that McArhur's staff covered it up, however, so McArhur just should have done his due diligence before publicly shaming and shunning an abuse victim.
@@seeker4wisdom 100% on point. The way some people are defending John MacArthur by saying he didn't know anything about the situation is very disconcerting. I would be highly suspicious of any pastor that gets up and speaks to a situation he knows nothing about. Especially if he's calling out somebody for their sin without having a conversation with them at the very least.
@@seeker4wisdom Have you read anything lately??? The writer of the article ALREADY exonerated MacArthur. PLUS, The Record shows that the physical abuse was not found out till AFTER the Church Discipline. No system is perfect coming from Mankind..... go to BTWN's Channel, He knows more than I do.
I wish you two ladies would run for Congress. I was not raised SBC but rather Presbyterian. I heard from our nephew in El Salvador, a follower with his brother in law of the Masters' Program (?), that it was not for women. I thought maybe Dr. McArthur had not accepted women like you, such serious students of theology. Keep up the good work. I agree with what you have said, I think, even though I'm 75.
What's the worst is that when people blaspheme the Holy Spirit and the manifestations and miracles that really do occur. And because of one or two charlatans whole denominations (Baptist church for one) deny any tongues or healings or people worshipping with fervor etc...have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof. Remember Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come to us and "you will see many more miracles" you stifle the Holy Spirit and grieve Him against art in the church, dance, music etc... How much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.....THOSE WHO ASK.
Who is here??? God has been, is, and will be there with you no matter what, even if you feel like He's far away, he'll always be there!
this is why you have to do your own research. Ruslan has spoken on this issue, and this was not mentioned that the church didn't know about the full story of what was going on. That is a detail you cant just skip out on to shame a pastor. You have to give the full context of what happened.
John Mac Arthur did not shut down his church during lock downs. He has my highest respect for that and his conservative ideas. As a penecostal I love him even tho he’s a different denomination
I have respect for John McArthur generally and specifically for his courage during the lockdowns. However I do not listen to him. Many decades ago I heard his teaching about speaking in tongues and as a result stopped listening to him. He was rabidly against and completely dismissive of the gift of speaking in tongues. He can come off as arrogant & hard.
@@sharonlazorko3893 I don't listen to him because he is adamantly antiCatholic .
Only 5 minutes in but already my first thought is if there’s video of this woman being publicly called to repentance then I have a problem with that off the bat. Those things should be handled during a time in church that’s not recorded so that it can never be made public. That’s strictly a matter of members of that church and no one else should be privy to it.
I’m not sure if it was secretly recorded
Totally agree with you.
It was videos by someone in the church not the church.
@@mktay2067 sounds like there needs to be some church discipline for that person then too 😳
Thank you for talking about this. 🙏
Keep in mind that the allegations brought up against Grace community church by Julie Royce happened over 20 years ago. In addition Grace community was under investigation and found not to be guilty of any misconduct.
“The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.”
Proverbs 18:17 NASB1995
“There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.”
Proverbs 14:12 NASB1995
The father of Eileen's children is in jail and was coming up for parole this year. That is a very appropriate time to revisit what he has done and the sincerity of any repentance and the truth of what really happened. If a sexual predator is let loose again there will be more victims. That is a statistical fact. Don't make this a petty argument about unfairly attacking MacArthur. That man isn't going to be the one suffering but he can sure do something to make sure children aren't abused by staff in his church and any other church by honestly addressing the questions and concerns.
As someone who went to hillsong as a student and who "served" there, I can 100 percent say they used and exploited people. It went beyond "serving". Having a student install a sprinkler system for a senior member of staff is not, in my opinion, serving others. Having students, who paid tuition to be there, pick up dry cleaning and do countless other errands and tasks that consumed their week goes beyond serving. When you are expecting people to devote the majority of their week to "serving" which is taking time from people making an actual living, you are exploiting people and it is 100 percent wrong.
Since the church and MacArthur publicly shamed her I sure hope they publicly apologized as well.
They didn’t apologize at all. MacArthur did a sermon on Sunday where he cried persecution and claimed that all this coming out is nothing but Satanic attacks against his church. He doesn’t care another to the elders. And Eileen wasn’t expecting an apology from them. She said in their mind she’s as good as dead.
@@tyeishaleisure that's awful. I know they are saying "they didn't know" but quite frankly that does not mean they are not responsible for their actions. I'm sure there were red flags along the way. Plus, many are saying that she has been validated because child abuse has now been proven. How sad that she was not validated in her complaints during counseling sessions when she was being abused. Physical abuse is not the only abuse that calls for separation and divorce. I hope this incident will begin to shed some light on the abuse situation that is occurring more often that people realize among church members.
@@Dawn-tv1bk agree wholeheartedly. And actually, the only thing they didn’t know was the sexual abuse. They knew about the physical abuse. She was told to stay in the marriage to model to her children suffering for Christ. And unfortunately, this is not the only case of abuse within MacArthur‘s church. Allie didn’t talk about it, but Julie Royce published another story about a woman named Wendy who was molested by her father. Once again, the father held a position at John MacArthur‘s church. This man molested two of Wendy’s cousins with one of them only being seven years old, and he attempted to have oral sex with her. Macarthur tried to guilt trip Wendy by telling her that her father was sorry for molesting her and that he was a good Christian man. MacArthur in the elders allowed this guy to go to another church where he got a teenager pregnant and then married her. It’s pretty vile stuff. There’s also another story where a guy that was a predator kidnapped a girl, and the girl had to jump out of his moving vehicle to avoid being sexually assaulted. Again, this man held a position at Grace community Church. Julie Roys published this story shortly after publishing Wendy’s story. Macarthur and the elders of GCC failed in every one of these cases.
@@tyeishaleisure Hmmm. Makes one wonder doesn't it? Systemic issues stem from somewhere. Usually the top down. I sure hope not. It's still sad. Very sad.
She only didn’t know about the sexual abuse but the physical abuse yes she and the pastors KNEW. Mr. Gray repented for the abuse supposedly, and they thought she should reconcile without formal counseling. Should JM apologize ? Even if he didn’t know, should he humble himself now and apologize ? If you say no you’re not the kind of Christian I ever want to be around.
Thanks Alli for this episode.
I give credit to JM for his courage to fight against covid tyranny. I started listening to some of his sermons on YT until I realized he is a strong proponents of calvinistic doctrine. However, he's done a good job in exposing the fallacy of WOF movement! But calvinsm is a very confusing system of belief.
Thank God, he set me free from following a rigid calvinistic system!
Thanks to Pastors like Dr. Frank Turek of cross examine, Dr Leighton Flower and many more, Dr. Andy Woods, and late Adrian Rogers❤
Jesus died for all! 2Cor. 5:14-15
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. -Romans 11:32 (ESV)
God Calls All to Repent
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, -Acts 17:30 (ESV)
Why is the church on the carpet all the time? I refuse to sit and gossip about any of it. I literally am doing the complaint free world challenge (years late but 🤣). We need to stop letting the constant white noise of the media drive all our dialogue. The goodness of our God should be enough to discuss. Imho
Oh Allie, So glad I found you. What a fresh breath of God that flows through you. Thx You for your responsible reporting the truth. My famy has gone & gotten through incest. It is So Complicated. I'm 67 & we still as a Christian family marvel at God's ability to not only get us through but then to use us as compassionate believers to come along side others with a kind of compassion & faith in God's ability to get us through. 🙏 God is able & enemy would Li e to use it to tare us apart. Funny tare & the scripture of tares being planted in our good soil
I always love hearing from Megan Basham, and I love your absolute refusal to end an episode in despair! :) I also appreciate your willingness to start talking about the MacArthur story, even though it's a little too close to home for you. Thank you!
John Harris (Conversations that Matter) gives a super detailed time line on the whole John McArthur case.
So do the court documents. They knew about the abuse, just possibly not the sexual abuse. It’s also a moot point since the church did not correct their errors even when they found out the full story.
@@lyds6382 Yes, a fact people conveniently ignore. The church counselor refused to file/accept the handwritten confession of abuse and wrote to the court in defense of David. Then long after the extent of his abuse including sexual abuse was known and David went to prison, they never apologized or walked back their defense of him nor apologized for excommunicating Eileen. Rather they still defended him and his later prison ministries in letters to the church.
People could understand a possible mistake where the counselor hid crucial information and the Pastor was fed false information about the scenario, so long as he was contrite and admitted it was a tragic misunderstanding and he rushed to give a verdict. What's completely reprehensible and disqualifies MacArthur from ministry is his refusal to reconcile with someone he wronged or even show the barest hint of remorse or repentance.
John MacArthur is the prince of the preacher :)
Allie Beth, it seems you didn't actually read the full report by Julie Roys. It is clear that the pastors that Eileen went to for help at GCC DID know of the physical abuse. There are several parts of the article that make it clear they knew. MacArthur himself never tried to talk to Eileen to find out anything first hand. I'm extremely disappointed that someone like you would make such a huge mistake and broadcast it publicly and emphatically, defending people who abused the victims they were supposed to help.
THANK YOU ALLIE!!
Just because the husband repented in word doesn't mean he should immediately be trusted. John McArthur, I believe, is acting as a pharisee in this instance. I listen some to his preaching, but with a grain of salt. Nobody is perfect, especially those in positions of power, church or politics. Read the Bible yourself and talk to God about it. This happened somewhat to me with my first husband. Now there's a term for it - gaslighting -me and everyone else, even my family. It amazed me that 2 different pastors both just took my husband's word for it that he repented, even cried about it, and expected everything to be ok. At first I stayed because of my strong religious and social beliefs about divorce. Then I started to see things that made me afraid he might sadistically hurt our very young son. Of course no one believed me and I felt shame to tell the one pastor I told anyway, especially when he kind of blew it off. I decided to separate, then to finally divorce my husband. I told God I was sorry but if I was wrong to let me see some fruit of his repentance. To make an already long story kind of shorter, he remarried and horribly abused his 2 stepsons. At first the children were removed from the home, from their mother, when it was discovered by their grandmother. Their mother was asked by the social workers where was her mother's instinct, couldn't she sense something was wrong. He was evaluated by a family psychiatric team, by more than one person. The mother was told she should never allow him to be alone with their young daughter they had together and only in the presence of a trained/licensed person. He was charged and put on probation. I started reading a lot on abuse of children and I believe he showed signs of grooming his young daughter to sexually abuse her from things I was told later by her mother and what I had read. Of course I could be wrong. He never tried to see his daughter again and eventually he has died. My thought when I heard he passed was, Thank goodness, no more small helpless animals or children will suffer from him ever again. It is so horrible when no one believes you, thinks "there are 2 sides to every story" or that a lot of women lie vindictively about their husband. You know they probably think this, that you might even think it in if you were in their place and can't really prove what you know is true. It's like living and trying to navigate safely for you, and especially your child, in a kind of nightmare hell. I still very strongly believe in God and that Jesus is my Personal Savior. I think because I have believed this so strongly most of my life that I have constantly not only prayed, but also talked to Him about everything and read the Bible daily to stay as close in touch with Him as possible. I believe he helped me and my son get out safely overall. I'm just not so much into formal church anymore. Even if a pastor doesn't believe in divorce, he should care about the well being of those he councils. Before he tells a woman to go back to her abusive husband he should wait to see some fruit of the spirit of repentance, and even then he could be wrong and usually is. Rarely do people like that change so easily. The consequences if he is wrong can be horrible. While I was going through my ordeal I listened to the 700 Club (many years ago!) and Pat Robertson said, (my paraphrase) If a man abuses his wife then he has broken his covenant with his wife and is not really a true believer in Christ, therefore the wife can, if she wants to, leave the marriage without condemnation from God or anyone else. (The abuser can't leave, but the abused can choose to leave) I personally believe it is ultimately between the woman being abused and God. One thing I believe Jesus showed, besides the awesome act of dying for our sins, is compassion in applying the law to those hurting, unlike the pharisees. Like Jesus healing the man on the Sabbath.
Help out not trusted at all. Most abusers and child predators do not change. If I was in any sort of position I would never take repentance from a abuser or pedophile or predator seriously. If they do it once, they can do it again.
The Bible does NOT give a pastor the authority to excommunicate someone. Nor is it a sin for a woman to separate from her husband. MacArthur is the one who has clearly sinned, and it is not his first.
Actually it really does.
Please read Matthew 18.
@@eurekahope5310 Matthew 18 gives the CONGREGATION the authority to excommunicate, not a cleric/prosecutor, not even the counsel of elders. There is no exception to this rule in Scripture, except a direct apostle's ruling in a case. The "before the assembly" step is supposed to be a trial, with witnesses (right there in the passage) where the accused can present their case and the whole assembly is the jury. He exceeded his authority. Purely. Simply. And quite aside from the procedural irregularity, the board and the pastor got the whole thing very wrong.