Wahoo Kickr ERG Mode - Does Gear Selection Matter?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- There's a lot of guides out there telling you that gear selection in ERG mode (indoor cycling training) doesn't matter. Well, it's not that easy. Especially when it comes to the Wahoo Kickr and the 12.5Lbs/5.6Kg flywheel. Today's video runs though quantifying the differences using the same power and same cadence with different gearing on the Wahoo Kickr.
Links:
GPLama Indoor Trainer Guide (Kickr): goo.gl/1U3L35
PinkBike Article on Muscle Recruitment: goo.gl/jvB5s8
Subscribe to support this TH-cam channel: goo.gl/QS5YZg
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Web: shanemiller.net
Instagram: / gplama
Strava: / strava
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Just found this video, Shane. You have just explained a large physiological difference in muscle recruitment between climbing and flat riding that many have been pondering and guessing about for years. Awesome stuff.
My exact comment! Superb video Shane, with a huge amount of insight that helps me make sense of my cycling indoors and outdoors! Thanks for the analysis.
Glad you brought this up because i felt a difference between the big ring and small ring and was told it was in my head because erg mode was the same. But i have been training for climbing so i usually use the small ring. Thanks for the advice!!!
I've been sitting on this one for over 12 months now.... for this very reason. I needed a way to put some data behind it... and to gently introduce the fact that a lot of the documentation out there is wrong.
So glad that you finally addressed this issue because as you said there is so much wrong information out there. Your results have some interesting implication which go way beyond all the big marketing talk of the companies. I did my own "research" on this topic with my Elite Drivo. I did 3 minute ERG intervals with constant cadence but changes the gears to speed up the flywheel. Turns out with increasing flywheel speed the average power is still constant but the variance of the power increases steadily with the flywheel speed. Since the effective resistance is the product of the flywheel speed times the distance of the resistance unit, the "smallest steps in resistance" will be inherently larger at higher flywheels speeds and thus it becomes more difficult to control the ERG mode without oscillations. Basically this means that at low flywheel speeds the trainer is able to set resistance with a resolution of let's say 2 watts and at higher flywheels speeds only with 10 watts, which renders the ERG mode unusable at least for the Drivo at the moment.
This reminds me.... There was talk of an updated firmware for the Drivo. I'll get on the case to see where that is at.
So Shane a lot of guys told me that for the erg mode it's better a small gear like 34x18 because with big gears erg mode sometimes sucks...and it was what i ve experienced with direto: big gear with high rpm and the direto can not hold target wattages... But now from your video i know that is not the same thing for my legs, and use the small ring is not a solution sometimes.
A video like this for the Neo would be really useful
This is may be your best video, impressively "simple" but so useful!
Thanks for the video! For 5-6 months a year, I use a CX bike on my Kickr2. Usually 1X. It's been interesting comparing the "feels" of different front rings (38, 40, 42, 44 and 48). For Zwift, the bigger rings feel better, but I usually have the 40 or 44 installed).
I think it's also important to note that if you do a ramp test in a certain gear, all subsequent workouts should also be done in that gear.
Great vid as usual! I’m on a kickr2 and I prefer to use the 52T in front for the lamest of reasons. There are 2 actually. Lol
1: Riding the bigger front 52T gives a higher distance covered reading on Strava. The smaller 36T always logged less distance covered. Btw I ride on trainerroad only. Eg, 1hr ride on big ring roughly equates to 40km on strava. The smaller ring usually equates to only 28km.
2: to keep the best chainline, I will ride 52T - 15T, the 5th sprocket on rear. This is more on trying to improve on wear and tear, thus reducing running cost in the long run. The fifth sprocket will normally be a single piece which can be replaced very cheaply vs a whole cassette. (No sram red 1 pc cassette for me!) I can run 36T - 17/18 to achieve the best chainline, 17/18 will be the 7th cog. However, the 7th n 8th cog will normally be a 1pc consisting of 2 cogs which also means they are a lot more expensive to replace.
Yes, the front big chainring is normally much more expensive to replace compared to the inner ring. However they too last a lot longer.
After watching this vid, esp understanding we are actually utilizing different muscle groups, I will definitely begin to alternate btw inner and outer rings in future.
Before I'm corrected by a biomechanics expert... I think the correct term would be different ratios/amounts of muscle groups. But the concept is the same there in what I stumbled though. Old school coaches have this nailed already - If you want to get good at riding hills, ride hills. :)
Fully agree. Did SST yesterday and today, 48x18 vs 39x24. The former felt like I was on flats and the latter felt like I was climbing a hill.
So glad I found this video. I just got my trainer and thought ERG mode was awful during my workout, but I was in a low gear. I’m glad I can fix the feel of the ride by changing to a higher gear, but this is also revealing that maybe I’m a poor climber if the low-gear ERG mode was a struggle for me. 😅
I've been waiting for this video. It shows exactly why I always train in big ring on my Vortex. I bet even training with high wheel speed on this trainer reminds more of climbing than riding on flats due to low inertia.
Thanks again for this great info. I'm new to my kickr 18 and zwift, a month in and learning about this ERG. Did the tour and now on to a build me up program, this will help me as I get used to the trainer. Cheers and happy days from California!!!
Hello! You've just explained Q factor for bicycles. I don't mean the separation between pedals, but the quality factor in physics and engineering. That is the proportion of energy lost for each cycle of an oscillator.
Shane does science, right. Great explanation for what I’ve experienced
Shhh..... the experts will be here soon. It'll get messy. :)
Ditto here! Great stuff... Shane, all you need is a lab coat and some thick glasses!!!! Maybe a catchy phrase... Shane Miller, the science tiller?
Llama Llama with Science Drama?
Great video Shane. I would also love to se you do the same test with the neo. Maybe also a video of how to use the two new modes on the neo, what training sessions etc.
Great info! In addition I realized that when training on different cadence intervals, its better to pick a lower speed gear. If you have a big momentum and switch to a lower cadence interval, it will take a while for the kicker to let you get on top of the gear.
Shane, great video. I've been noticing this on my KICKR SNAP as well. In fact, I previously owned a Cycleops Magnus and found I had to train in higher gears because the flywheel didn't have enough rotational intertia to not feel like slogging through mud. As a result, my climbing outdoors suffered dramatically. I've noticed my HR goes up faster and my legs fatigue more quickly in lower gears than "flying along" in a higher gears.
Shane, your experiment got me curious about the real power from the legs needed to keep the momentum with the low gear versus just "tapping" the high gear. You cover almost all aspects in your video, but you rely on the KICKR power as shown by the Wahoo app. I like my KICKR, but I don't have full confidence in the power numbers it generates. I did a quick test with my Powertap P1 pedals to validate my suspicion and it turns out that there is a gap and it's quite significant in some cases. I started with my lowest gear (39/28) and rode 30 seconds each at 100w/150w/200w/250w. I then did the same test with my highest gear (53/11). With the lowest gear, I got very consistent and stable power numbers from my P1s that were very close to the KICKR generated power numbers (within the +/- 2% advertised KICKR accuracy). With the highest gear, power numbers from my P1s were not even close to the KICKR's and they were jumping all over the place and were very unstable. At 100w (+/- 18%). At 150w (-35% to -3%). At 200w (-30% to -9%). Finally, at 250w (-22% to -10%). With this kind of discrepancies, I am glad Zwift and TrainerRoad implemented Power Match with the use of an external power meter. Sufferfest should implement this feature later this year.
Good video Shane and interesting take on this. I always like to duplicate what I use on the road so for a TT, I am riding in the big ring so that's what I will try to use indoor even with ERG mode turned on.
I've tried this on my Kikr. Maybe it's personal but I find it easier to hold higher watts at higher flywheel speeds. So either higher cadence or higher gear or both. This has a damping effect on the load you feel at the pedal and is less demanding on where or how long your power stroke is. For me this also translates on the road. Higher rpm is less critical on where in the stroke you make the power. You don't get the spikes in the load on the muscular system.
I just bought a smart trainer the other month. I always change up or down the gears depending on which zone I'm in. I figured it had more to do with the resistance the trainer can apply to the flywheel and the angular momentum of the flywheel.
Yes it makes a difference!! Doing a block at 280w on 50x13 is quite a bit easier then on 36x17. Had a Snap, now own a Kickr and it's the same feeling.
Feel is something subjective but it would be interesting to see what happens if you do a 6 minute block around threshold, once at low gear and once at high gear. Heartrates will be lower on the high gear, i'm pretty sure. Maybe an idea for an other Lama video ;-)
cerocerocinco so you’re saying to stay in the big ring in erg mode? Also, in your opinion, is it worth going from snap to kickr for just general fitness!
Great work! Any chance a piece on how the Neo works into your theory, as it has a simulated flywheel?
Very topical to me being new to ERG mode on Zwift. I suspected it was easier for me to maintain long efforts in a higher gear with the flywheel really flying due to it smoothing out my power spikes. That long-named software package and the muscle recruitment chart were very informative as well.
The topic of kinetic energy always gets me going, but unless it's explained well, there's always the potential for improvement.
Awesome video. I'm still learning how to use my kickr there's a lot to it. Also I don't know if it's just the video but your kickr seems to sound really cool.
Also have noticed that changing the height of the front wheel makes a difference. I have a kurk riser with three levels. I change to a different level each week to get a bit different muscle use.
Very useful - Thanks Shane!
My wife has always wondered (and me too) why my ankle dorsiflexors were so prominent. I didn't really know (or even know what that muscle was called) until you showed the graphic in the last minute of the video. I guess this means I use the back side of the pedal stroke.
This is awesome stuff. I’ve learned so much already.
With my Kickr in ERG mode I always put it in the small chainring just because it's a bit quieter...
True i def noticed the same thing
I am on a elite suito though
The mic was positioned wrong, did you notice how loud the clipping in and out of pedals and gear changes were? Everything was way higher sound level than you would actually hear it.
Very interesting, something I never had thought of!
Really interesting video Shane. I have tended to stick my old Kickr on the inner ring and around 5th at the back not just for noise, but also preventing cross-chaining. I have just bought a new Kickr with a Climb though so noise is no longer an issue. I'm training for an Everesting so I guess having a lower Inertia would help though!
I've tested my wahoo in both high and low gears and it makes a HUGE difference on how fast my cadence is because the loading around the pedal stroke in low gear is much harder all the way around the crank.
Sidenote: since the wahoo is so friggen noisy, I always train at a low gear to minimize the noise.
Totally makes a difference. On my old wheel on Tacx I was always between gears to get the right power output, not with the Kickr, I can move up and down the gears without issue and still hit power numbers without feeling like I'm between a gear. This means the legs respond better and I don't feel "cramped" trying to push a bigger gear while suffering. If the legs are tiring or I feel I need to flush them, up the gears to a nice high cadence, spin em out and then back onto a harder gear again. Seriously only a week in with the Kickr and it's the best investment hands down I've made for my training.
Thanks for reviews and info making it an easy choice on which trainer to buy!
furai333 Not sure what youre talking about, but you shouldnt have to switch between gears in ERG mode to find the right power outpur
Yeah the old tacx was no smart trainer so no erg mode. I was always changing gears to get the right power output. Hence the instant love of the Kickr
but we are discussing here a complete different topic, it is about the influence of the flywheel speed on ERG mode and as Shane demonstrated the ERG mode is indeed influenced by the flywheel speed.
Great video Shane!
Another great video, Shane! I was with you until the very end. I am constantly hitting the death spiral after doing a hard interval when going into the recovery interval. I watched your other video on how to "stay on top" of the gear and will give that a try soon. But I was hoping this video would tell me exactly which gear ratio I should be in. What exactly is a "faster flywheel gear"?
53/11 is the fastest I guess. Which specific gear ratio to be in is a little too specific. Whichever works. Or whichever your coach tells you to be in. :)
great video.
your fly wheel looks like it is glowing orange hot like disk brakes.
Great topic. I thought I was going crazy noticing this.
It's a thing! :) I'm glad others are commenting on here with the same experience.
Considering how prevalent the death spiral is, I think it is critical that the "smart" trainer manufacturers need to make their trainers a little smarter. I'm sure this can be addressed via firmware updates.
It would be interesting to see the same work with an oval ring like Rotor QXL
How about with the Neo with the virtual fly wheel?
totally agree! that's another valid experiment scenario -- comparing the "physics-based" flywheel to the "virtual" flywheel. how well does tacx approach mimic the real world flywheels?!
Thanks! Well explained!
You had me at cruising at 300 watts... XD
Yes it does create a different training experience. For reference i use Trainerroad and Kickr. The FTP test is done in normal mode so you perform that in say a 52-14. In ERG mode 52-14 is much easier to hold the watts than 36-14 even with a > 100 cadence.
What I do is 1 set in the 52 and then 1 set in the 36 and then back to the 52. If I am failing an interval i'll micro adjust by changing the back ring to get through the interval.
I thought that since it is harder, there must be a different training adaptation needed so I may as well do an alternate style of training and improve on that as well. Mix it up to become a more versatile rider.
If you're interested, here's my un-scientific theory. The Kickr measures power by flywheel speed x brake force. Higher flywheel speed requires less brake force, so the giro affect of more flywheel speed and less brake force requires less pedal force to keep on top of it. With the smaller gear and less flywheel speed, it needs more brake force so you need more pedal force input to keep it going. There is only so much pedal force we have, so to get more, we utilise additional muscles earlier in the pedal stroke to perform the work.
016hawk i have the same theory. but as an addition, at low fly wheel speeds with higher resistance force small changes in cadence lead to larger changes in power making it more difficult for ERG mode to keep the power constant. so i could imagine that there is a optimal cadence / resistance region where ERG operates the best.
Very interesting! I was looking into Elite Direto, but I think smart trainer loses bit of its appeal if you have to change gears.
So I guess the next step question... cadence is it harder holding a high cadence big gear vs small gear in erg same power?? should be similair...but if it feels more like a climb maybe not...Great video BTW :)
I’ve just gone to a Kickr Core from a Tacx Vortex and have noticed the Flywheel effect immediately. I’ve always trained with TrainerRoad and employed the 52 chainring theory as I like the feeling it gives me and suits my style on the road too. Great video as I’ve always wondered if I was feeling a difference or was it just my legs tricking me? 👍🏻
The difference is real. The flywheel (and flywheel speed) are important.
What called that app for measuring torque with the chart?
The taxc flux.. in erg mode, doesn't hit the bigger wattages numbers unless you start putting in the big ring and smaller cassette sprockets.. I.e say 370..upto 1000+(sprint efforts) can be frustrating if you select wrong gear on a sprint effort, also it take 3-5 seconds to hit the wattage too👎so on microburts efforts maybe factor that in on a workouts..
The sound of the Kickr would drive me crazy after 20 minutes
TH-cam magnifies the sound dramatically. My industrial fan set up is louder thank my Kickr2. The noise issue is a furphy for the most part.
I do this all the time on my TACX Vortex in ERG mode. I no longer believe that ERG is a set 1 gear and forget it type of feature, I always have to adjust my gearing, depending on the workout that I have pulled up.
Shane, great video and just confirmed the same myself. Scary how big the difference is. So I have a more pointed question for you.. For the last few years I've been riding small ring since a watt is a watt right, and it's just quieter.. After seeing this, I tried it out on 4x15 at 99% ftp and felt like a million bucks after and during with not a single heart rate spike..Frankly, it's just easier to sustain power. So the question is, despite a watt being a watt, is the large ring workout actually easier and less effective and by using the small ring are you actually getting a more complete workout? This preparing you for both climbing and flat roads, since I'd assume if you're able to sustain small ring erg mode then you're going to breeze through large ring at an equal ftp...
A watt is a watt.... how they’re produced is what changes. And that’s all dependent on the motor. Everyone is different.
Totally agree Shane, and fantastic analysis. I'm curious if it's ultimately worth sticking to the small ring to get a more challenging workout, which targets an additional muscle group as you point out, or to determine ftp. If the body can sustain more watts on the large ring than small, wouldn't you think ftp is a bit of a subjective metric depending on what ring you tested in. Again fantastic work on your part.
@@randumtasx it's subjective in the sense that you probably have a different FTP when mountain biking than when road biking. What type of riding you want to exceed at is the question you should be asking yourself when selecting gear on ERG mode. That's my understanding from the video anyways.
funny enough wahoo is not allowing other power data source as a reference point for erg mode in their head units. I've been comparing various gear selections in ERG mode between trainer and a few power meters (e.g. various stages, vector dual) and the reading from smart trainer vs pedals/crank arm may be as much as 10% different. So if you're training on the road with let's say 330w target power - be sure it's not 330 on the trainer, and worst thing is that you never know what's the delta since gear ratio is massively impacting the reading.
Being on top of the gear is good for long intervals...but on shorter sprint/rest style workouts, being in the longer gears makes it almost impossible to hit your targets
Any chance with the Tacx neo. Just bought mine and starting northern hemisphere winter training, it would be v useful to see the same test on the Tacx neo
It shouldn't see the same differences due to the 'virtual flywheel' it has. I'll try get to this when I have the chance.
Same question here ;) Probably Tacx can help with an answer as well.
My initial thought was that since the Neo has a virtual flywheel, it comes down to if or how the Neo "simulates" the inertia/kinetic energy of it. Moreover, could there be a difference whether you have the Neo plugged in or not? Time for some Traineroad'ing tonight...
Same request - I'd really like to see the differences with Tacx Neo (being an owner of one). Hope this comparison will give an answer if slightly more noise (big chainring) gives anything else in ERG mode.
Shane Miller I've tried this with my neo and once you hit the right power the gear doesn't seem to make a difference. I'm just going off feel though, no real science behind it
Yes I would also like to find out for the Neo. It does feel like more 'on top of the pedals' with more speed but I have no proof, just feeling...
this is intriguing
Shane can you overlay the average torque curves somehow? Maybe on an X-Y graph as opposed to the radial graph that shows the "peanut". This might help illustrate some of the "feel". I stopped your vid at 5:47, when you explain the different resulting max power angles and zoomed in on the graphs. Notice that the radial graph scales "auto adjust", so they are not the same torque axis values. IF you pull out torque values off the "peanut", you see that the left, low flywheel speed values peak roughly at 55 and 45 Nm. The high flywheel speed values peak roughly at 45 and 40 Nm. I am not exactly sure what this means as obviously the "systems" (power meter, recording software, EGR mode software) involved are doing some sort of averaging to arrive at 330 Watts at 91 RPM. (Power = Torque x RPM, and Torque = Force x distance(crank length)) Perhaps the X-Y graph might show why there is a difference? My take is 1) your muscle use chart is key to that "getting on top of the gear" feeling and 2) that there is something else going on within the "systems". All that said, I am certain that yours is the best explanation I've heard so far. Cheers!
The auto-zoom/scale on the torque was doing my head in! I wanted to do the overlay but it was bouncing around all over the place.
It would be very interesting if the "raw data" was available. We could try to see just what sort of averaging the systems are using. As you stated, is a complicated problem... What isn't so complicated is to calculate that 34.63 Nm of torque is required to produce 330W at 91RPM. Obviously, this would be for a constant torque; a perfect circle on the radial graphs. We have "peanuts". Okay... enough, my head hurts. Time for more coffee!
Agreed. And you're on my wave Paul. I was sipping my coffee as I read the last line too! I should be able to export a CSV from Torque360! Bam! Let's do this..... wait... I've just removed the 2INPower cranks to test out this Wattteam Powerbeat... stay tuned! I will return to this.
Interesting as I don't feel as much power coming from my glute (butt) muscles when climbing than my quads. But the muscle recruitment pic says otherwise. Learned working those muscles in the off season will improve my climbing prowess, an oft neglected theory!
Could also be bike fit related. Maybe have a fit professional give your position a once-over to ensure optimal setup.
Shane Miller - GPLama it's also worth noting lowering your heel while on top of the gear will engage different muscles when climbing. Big picture: Experiment with different pedal styles till you find your strengths, and avoid waste. MO 😎
I tend to just try and keep the chain line straight to minimise drive chain wear. Big ring on front / mid block rear.
Grind it, wear it out, throw it away. Everything is a consumable! :) Big ring mid cassette will be suitable for most riding, so you're onto something.
Shane Miller Meant when in ERG mode mainly as top end gear can be expensive to replace especially if accelerated wear through poor gear selection.
stupid question: does anyone ever have a situation where you get too on top of the gear? on my kickr snap i essentially get to a point where the trainer can't keep up. I notice my cadence can jump up to 110-120 and it feels like im just spinning with no resistance. i stop and reset and it is all fine again.
Thanks a lot, very interesting!
I would love to know more about how to optimize my work on the trainer for my Ironman bike training.
That's a great question for a coach who can review your goals/training/ride history/etc. A good coach will look into these and more.
Great Video. Any chance of the same on a Neo as sometimes a Neo feel like treacle!
Awesome video! Is this similar on a wahoo kickr bike?
The Kickr Bike has only one physical gear, so this doesn't apply. (I'd need to dig back into how it uses virtual gears, if at all, in ERG).
Where did you find the graphic of muscle recruitment for the pedal stroke around the 6:15 mark of this video? Thanks - and great job as always - I enjoy your work.
Google images should locate it and the page/articles for it.
In the Wahoo app there is an option to turn ERG mode smoothing on/off. If I'm having the Kickr controlled by a 3rd party power meter and using some software (Sufferfest) to control the Kickr, would having ERG mode smoothing on or off make any changes to the resistance or how the unit "weights up" in response to changes in target power/intervals? I gather it's only reported power, but if that has an impact on the control it's getting from the power meter....may make a difference? Thanks! Great vid, too!
I just keep it in the same place to approximate the average speed I would do outside on a flat road. I wonder if it would matter for this experiment if you raised the front block some or used the new fancy wahoo thing
How would this apply to a Tacx Vortex or similar wheel driven trainer?
Thanks Shane and it helps as I've just got my latest kickr for my training. One further question, will it provide better training for climbing if I use higher front wheel stand/kickr climb in order to simulate the slope?
Maybe. That's about all I'll commit to as an answer for now without doing a lot more reading up on it. :)
Real interesting.
had my elite intera/inertia (qubo variant) wheel on trainer for a couple of weeks now and have definetly noticed/feel you can "cheat" erg mode (since realising i try to avoid doing it)
counterintuitively at fixed power and cadence it becomes harder when you change down and easier when you change up, i figured it was due to inertia maintaing/creating more of the power at high wheelspeed and me doing less work.
surely this could be shown by comparing numbers from pedals to those from a trainer ? but what youre saying is that the increased inertia is simply changing the required pedal stroke to a more efficient/comfortable one and actual power is the same?
on wheel on trainers i also wonder about the effects of wheel and tyre weight
Can you pedal fast enough with no resistance using any weight flywheel and still reach maximum heart rate? With lighter wheels I am worried the workout will not be intense enough. The more resistance you add the more it becomes strength training and less of a cardio workout.
Could you explain what the shape of the graph represents at 4:00 ? Having trouble understanding the x and y axis and how the represent the pedal stroke. Thanks!
The circle? That's the 'pedal peanut' they call it. Similar to what WattBike do: support.wattbike.com/hc/en-au/articles/115001848609-A-Beginner-s-Guide-To-Perfect-Pedalling
So if training for long climbs using erg mode, it's probably best to use the small ring and move that flywheel at a low speed then right? (And vice versa for training for TT efforts!) I never actually thought about the effect that the flywheel speed would have on pedal stroke and power delivery... this is a bit of a training game changer for sure!
Correct. This does depend on the trainer used though.
This is a very enlightening video! But I am still confused. I have only had my kickr for about a month now, and I have noticed in ERG mode that if I chose a "high" gear (big ring up front, middle in back) the "speed" that is tracked on my Garmin is almost TWICE as fast as when I am in a "low" gear (small ring up front, middle in back) even though the WATTS are exactly the same!! It blows my mind. I am unsure after watching this video which is actually the best to train in... I want to get max benefits, but what I REALLY want is to see improvements outside. (If I want to go faster in Zwift with less effort, big gears it is!). My natural cadence is not really that high, but obviously tapping away seems to be healthier, but if I'm not strong enough out on the road I could see this slowing me down... I'm just confused :(
Flywheel speed is what your Garmin is tracking. This is unrelated to Zwift speed/distance. th-cam.com/video/gT--ftOFbfc/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for answering my question! It makes sense... and yet, it doesnt. Why is the flywheel speed different even though the watts are the same? Is it because of the drag(or lack of it) as discussed in this video? Sorry if this is getting a bit circular! Either way, are not the maths being applied in the Zwift universe are still based on watts... or a combo of the flywheel speed, which is different depend on gear size? *sobs*
Forget flywheel speed. That's the easiest way. Indoor cycling is about effort and time. How hard you push the pedals and for how long. You're going nowhere, so speed and km are made up regardless of looking at the Kickr flywheel or Zwift speed/distance.
OK, right! You're so right but it's so easy to get caught up in all this stuff. I feel like you have just slapped me back into reality. So much easier when it was just me alone with my /dumb/ turbo.
Great video Mr Miller, your techniqile content is awesome, this maybe a bit of a stupid question but I’ll ask it anyway, I realise that the kickr requires power so it’s able to operate and create the power output changes, but then why can’t it recapture, the power we are putting through the pedals which ultimately goes to the fly wheel and store it in a battery or go back into the grid like solar.
I know these kind of machines exists as in 1 hour of cycling a day can generate enough power to run a house for a day, js there a way u could connect a belt to the fly wheel and drive a altanator to store the energy produced ???
Cheers Steve. That device that powers a house for a day, it's total crap. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and no such thing as free energy. Humans are HORRIBLE engines. ~20-25% efficiency of energy if I recall correctly. Which is why we can convert energy from power meters in kilojoules straight to kilocalories (Calories) and it works out about the same.... Long story short, we can't produce enough energy to be all that useful. Maybe we could charge a mobile phone, or power a LCD TV with our 150-250W of pedalling... but then that energy has to come from somewhere, typically the food we eat. It's a super interesting topic. Best summed up with a quote from the text books on the topic "energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed from one form to another."
Shane Miller ahhhh ok just another lesson shouldn’t believe everything you see on TH-cam !!!
But on another note that spin scan u were using in guessing is rotor software as stated in the video about the positioning of the q-rings ( not that I’m a big fan of them, but that’s just my view ) I saw on the GCN show ( does science ) Sy and Dan did tests about pedalling techniques and trying to perfect pedalling circles, and as the tests shown the human body ( which is each persons best personnel computer ) actually adapts to the most efficient pedal stroke for each individual person as we are all made differently. Just wondering what your views on this would be ???
I haven't seen any conclusive evidence/data in q-rings that has convinced me to try them. I'm sure others have... and that's why they're running them. I'll give the GCN science a wide berth for now.
Running ERG mode on the Kickr with a set wattage at different flywheel speeds, I wonder what you would notice with...
(a) Heart rate - by how much (if any) is it higher at a lower speed? Should that affect how we think of Power as a absolute training metric?
(b) Does the Precision of the Kickr's power data change at different gears on ERG mode?
Interesting questions. 1) HR is the response to what you're doing, and it can vary a LOT. It's not invalid... it's just not as useful as power. 2) Excellent question. I'd go with a gut feeling of 'no'... but.. it'd be something to test out for sure.
Interesting subject. I came here looking for insight into high resistance on my setup. With my Neo I find it's a HUGE hamstring workout compared with normal outdoor riding, there's no feeling of momentum or inertia to help through the pedal stroke.
I've only ever used my QR axle road/crit bike, set up as 1x with 58t x 11-28.
I'm going to try a smaller chainring, and maybe get a thruaxle adapter to use my other road bike with normal 2x gearing.
What do you use to measure powerstroke around the chainring
How are you watching your torque in real time?
Rotor360 software and their power meter.
I have just gone from a original kickr to a tacx flux 2 I assumed that it would be a bit of an upgrade but it seems that there is a lot more gear changing to be done. I use the little ring normally as I was told it was better, I cant get the watts up without changing onto the big ring or my recovery sections are over watts. is this purely a flux thing or is the kickr dealing with this better as it feels like a step back.
who wants to change gear in the middle of a ramp test!!
As mentioned in my latest coverage of the FLUX 2.... it's sluggish to ride.
I understand the idea behind, but still can’t answer myself where is the truth.
Is the inertia something bad or good? Am I getting the most from the workout if I’m cycling using inertia or not?
My understanding is that in the end, the important things are the watts and to complete the workout reaching the targets but I can do this easier using the inertia or trying to do the same without inertia and to give up in the middle…
Inertia / momentum is good... it's what replicates you flying down the road at speed as you're pushing on the pedals. If you want to train for hill climbs (slower speeds) then a lower inertia is what you're after.... watts are watts, but how you produce them is important. It all comes down to what you want to get better at...
Cool video. I use this knowledge for my workouts using ERG mode. For low intensity and when I want to quickly notice changes on resistance, I use lighter gear and slow speed flywheel. The opposite for hammering VO2 workouts and sprinting. The problem sprinting with ERG mode and high gear is that we need to wait for the resistance to "engage", otherwise, the flywheel will speed up and the resistance will not rise accordingly.
By the way, do you know a software similar to this which would work for Assioma Pedals powermeter?
The Assioma don’t have a very detailed pedal stroke analysis option. At this point.
Thanks for your reply.
Is there snap the same way or does being in an easy gear cause the flywheel to spin to slow causing the accuracy of it's power reading to suffer?
Likely yes on the flywheel speed/inertia/feel. Not sure on the power accuracy suffering because of it.
EGR Mode. I like to ride EGR on High gear because if I have to adjust in the saddle it feels more "road like" However based on the graph below it seems riding in the low gear is more efficient on the wahoo kicker. I set ERG smoothing to "OFF and update to 1 Second www.screencast.com/t/KbNcP0BH
Shane, post the link to get the Kickr stickers. I would like to order the White ones. Thanks.
G'day Keith. They're up on lamaoz.myshopify.com/ use code KICKRLAMA for free shipping worldwide too.
And, as you taught me for some trainers like drivo and direto by elite...erg mode simply doesn't work with big gear. Listenin' on what you explain in this video with this elite trainers some kind of workout cannot be perfomed.
Fabio Mussi excately, the ERG on the elite drivo is absolute rubbish when used in the big ring. my theory is that the resistance is the product of fly wheel speed multiplied by the braking magnet distance. hence at higher flywheel speed like in the big ring the single steps in resistance are larger compared to resistance steps while riding in the little ring. i think they need to adjust the stepsize of the magnet motor to obtain smaller steps in resistance for higher flywheel speeds. TL DR: erg mode sucks except riding in the small ring which kinda sucks too regarding the road feel.
This is really disappointing. The drivo is the flagship trainer for Elite but even the direto is an 800$ trainer. What i really don't understand is why this issue, if it is the same for this 2 trainers, is not mentioned in any of the reviews i've read such as DC 's one. If, as you say, the road feel with small rings sucks....it's something to consider when someone is going to spend so much money
yes I'm quite disappointed by DC rainmakers review of the Drivo and the Drivo itself. He said that no calibration is necessary which is absolutely wrong, furthermore the Drivo needs about 20 minutes of warmup until die power stabilses. And out-of-the-box my Drivo reported about 20W higher power data compared to my power2max power meters, so without proper calibriation after at least 30 minutes of warmup the power data is absolutely not reliable. Another disappointing aspect is the app. It provides merely 20 steps to set the resistance, thus each step is about 50W, basicially useless to control the trainer. For that reason I have to use trainer road because it provides much smaller steps in the resistance settings. Yeah, and on top this the malfunctioning ERG mode, which makes pretty much that you will always ride 20W above or below your target but never actually on target. And sadly most of these issues are due to bad engineering and not a fundamental flaw. They could be fixed so easily like the app to control the resistance for a start. Honestly, my old Vortex doesn't fell so shit anymore compared to the Drivo considering it is only about 25% the price of the Drivo.
I've contacted Elite support because DC answered me that in his reviews (not only Elite ones) he always use big gear and, obviously, i ve no doubt he tells the truth. So when i told to elite support that for me ERG works only with small ring they were surprised and they confirm me that this is not the correct behaviour for the direto (and the drivo).
So they asked me to perform a test ride with their app in this way: warm-up (10/15' minutes) calibration, and some intervals in erg mode with 50W steps...such as 150W,200, 250W, 300W and 350W. At the end i'll send exported files back to them. I'll let you know what 'll happen.
Fabio Mussi i also contacted Elite about the issue and offered my collected data to demonstrate the oscillations in ERG mode and asked them how they will address this issue. but they did not respond because i think they know how messed up ERG mode is and don't have a solution yet.
Can you use the pedal analysis software with the kicker only? And what was the name of the software?
This software is part of the Rotor power meter offering. It will only work with the power meter on the bike.
Makes sense. Thanks. Why the block under the front wheel?
I prefer to have a slightly raised front end on the ergo. With no steering or cornering indoors I find it more comfortable.
Have to compliment you on the quality of your videos. Very professionally made.
Thanks mate. They're the least professional thing I do.... so I'll take that as a compliment. :)
What kind of block is it? I could use one for my core. Thanks for the content you put out.
Any idea if there is any software available to get a real time torque visualisation from the favero assioma pedals? Like the Rotor 360 in the video?
Only IAV Cycling Dynamics on Garmin head units.
Looking at your pedal power readouts have you ever considered using Osymetric style chainrings???
I've considered, and that's as far as I get. I've not seen any conclusive independent data/studies on them that's conclusive enough for me to believe they work. There's also issues with power meter compatibility (not ideal for what I do), front changing issues (maybe resolved now?), and the cost - They're more expensive. There's a lot of people who use and believe in them, that's totally cool. I just need more data.
Not that I'm in to it as deep as yourself but I love your answer "I just need more data"... I have a spreadsheet for everything 🙂
Do you still sell the wahoo kickr stickers? Look like your checkout does not work.
hello shane i have the tacx neo 2 and it feels the oposite to the kicker when i am in 52×17 its harder to keep a 90rpm and legs muscle feel beat up but the 36×17 feels better on my legs i can keep a higher cadence but my HR goes higher.
Likely to be the flywheel (or virtual flywheel) effect.
@@gplama i only use trainerroad i race crits and i dont know which one will be better for me to train small chain ring or big chain ring.
Would this be similar results using the Kinetic with and without the large flywheel that is a purchase item? So, I could put it on and ride flat lap race, take it off and go up major kom climb?
Arrrhh... Yes. I guess.
Hi Shane! I have a perhaps unusual issue. I have a Tacx NEO and also a Quarq DFour power meter on my S-Works Tarmac. When i do a TrainerRoad workout - except the FTP tests - i always put it in the small chain ring. I notice during my TrainerRoad workout, when the bike is in the small chain ring, the Tacx NEO is always showing about 5W higher than the Quarq power meter (paired to my Garmin Edge 520). If i shift to the big chain, both Tacx NEO and Quarq will display the same power. Can you think of a reason why this is happening?
Chain angle? Calibration/re-calibration/zero-offset done in the big ring? Your L/R balance being different in a gear with less torque (small ring)... although in theory that shouldn't matter on the Neo... but I have a suspicion it would. Best I can come up with off the top of my head.
Will changing gears during a say a 5 minute workout interval mess things up? I have found that I get bogged down when I do, but there must be a solution.
In ERG mode? You can change gears if you like, but you'll have to adjust your cadence/force as it adjusts.
@@gplama Yes erg mode. Thanks. I just seem to get in the 'circle of death' every time. I'm fairly strong so this feels pretty odd when it gets so bogged down I can barely pedal.
Isn't it so, that the higher the wheel/flywheel speed is, the less resistance the trainer adds, to get the same wattage? On my Vortex, it certainly feels quite different doing 300 w in a low gear and a high gear. In the low gear, it feels much more "choppy" and nearly unrideable, so I always use the big ring. Have you guys had the same experience?
Yes, it almost feels like I am cheating by spinning up the wheel as the resistance is less. With a Vortex btw.
yes, the higher the flywheel speed the lower the resistance for a given wattage.
Had a new Kickr for a week, How do you set up sprint sessions with it on Zwift? Today I was going from 120w rest to 10 secs full effort x5 x 3, max wattage was 1075W. I found it best to kick it out of ERG mode 4 secs before the sprint, have sim resistance about half way and have 52 front, mid rear. I was power matching via Stages left arm (My ftp was set with it and Kickr is reading about 4% lower) . Not saying that's right, but how do you do them?
ERG will never be any good for sprints. There's a workaround for custom workouts: th-cam.com/video/A4aqIzhfUFg/w-d-xo.html
Does this also apply to the virtual flywheel of the Tacx Neo ?
The Neo still has a flywheel with weight, so a little bit, yes.
Hello ! Are this turbo trainers not puting extra stress in the frame ? I mean , In reality when you ride in force you lean the bike but when you are on the trainer and when you go full power and you balance the bike all the stress ends right in the lower part of the frame where is fixed in the trainer. I mean , I am more than sure no frame was designed to be used like this.
If there was an issue we'd be seeing A LOT of problems with broken bikes. Wahoo, Tacx, Elite, CycleOps, Zwift, TrainerRoad, Sufferfest, Rouvy, etc would all be struggling with their respective businesses. While the theory is good, the data tells us there's no issue when bikes are used correctly on indoor trainers. If you're not confident riding a bike on an indoor trainer, then I wouldn't be trusting it in traffic.
I Was refering lateral balance. I am 103 kilos , 2 meters tall . To me looks like the trainer can make a lever right in the ear where is mounted .
In the Traffic I am fine :)) This is me racing cars on the European Road
th-cam.com/video/wYqgS69fcbY/w-d-xo.html
I don't think there is a serious problem, as Shane is correct that we would see big issues for trainer makers.
But that said, I do think a rocking motion like the Kinetic Rock and Roll trainer can reduce the stress on the frame.
I made my own version to work with any trainer. I did it mainly to make standing efforts more natural, but I am pretty sure that is puts less stress into the frame.
Consider making one for yourself if you like the idea.
zwiftblog.com/rockit-launcher/
Big Ring =climb and smal ring = flats? Thanks
Other way around
It's not so simple, you can climb in "real Life" too with big ring...pro riders and evolute amateurs climb regulary with 53/52 especially with moderate gradient or short climb...in wait to have a scientific response for me the better Is alternate a lot...and changing cadence with both.
Does anyone have recommendations for an inexpensive spin bike good enough for interval training where you can reach maximum heart rate? Thank you.
No. Cheap spin bikes isn't an area I cover.
@@gplama I just wanted to ask others viewing the video if they found cheaper options. Thank you for linking me to this video. It definitely helped.