Kinda feel bad for Happy. He can’t go to RaRa, gets banned, loses 3-1 to Sok, now forced to play against a guy who threatened his life and a bunch super laggy games. He doesn’t have much else so it’s clear why he gave in pretty easily (plus he is pretty professional all things considered)
Neo in first video: "People leave if they have a ping of 200ms." Neo in second video: "Why is everybody saying there is 200ms ping?!?" Edit: BTW love you man! :)
Players should have the option to forfeit mmr if they don't gain anything (fun, valuable practice) from a match. Forcing them to waste their time "for the greater good of the community" is evil. Happy isn't the community's slave.
that doesnt work. say the cost to forfeit is losing 20 mmr. now if a player forfieted 5 games in a day that would remove 100 mmr out of they ladder system permanently. I believe a new player starts at 1000 or 1200 mmr. so it would only take 10 or 12 days for a player that forfiets a lot to remove an entire player worth of mmr from the system. There are not enough new players joining to feed a system like that and you could probably be near the top of the ladder without really playing after a while XD
If someone doesn't want to play vs someone and he wants to leave, let him just leave. If some ppl, have the benefit to extract MMR from Happy cuz he doesn't want to play them, accept it as part of the system and allow Happy the same freedom like any other Player and spend time withe something more useful than harassing Happy? I admire W3champions, for what they did and do for the scene. I also understand the goal to keep the MMR System as fair, as possible. Don't know exactly why Happy doesn't want to play certain players, I am not in his genius mind^^ but forcing ppl to play someone, they for what ever reason don't want to play, has to me just kindergarden teacher vibes. It's also not fair, to pick out individual Player to disabuse them and change their behavior with the force of treat or punishment, simply cuz they don't want to play certain players. Hope you guys at least doesn't use this treat or punishment tactics on ur social relationships 😉✌️
I seriously couldn't care less about some tournaments using ladder as a means to get players, that is a stupid system to begin with. This is how you get smurf accounts en masse because now players need one account for MMR boosting to get into tournaments, and one account to test strategies and playing different. That system is so incredibly flawed, it will still be terrible even if Happy and everyone else always plays every game fully. Because imagine you just get bad luck and match vs Happy 10 times within a day. You will lose MMR and possibly get thrown out of the tournament simply due to matchup RNG. Or better yet, imagine you're Dise, you win 10 times against Hawk on ladder, but Hawk gets a few lucky wins vs Happy, and now Hawk's in the tournament ahead of you, despite you destroying him (pure hypothetical here). Fix the tournaments relying on MMR to select its players, and the need for "ladder integrity" will disappear.
Let me be clear. Thanks to Happy, you grew your audience, made money, and are making a living. Now, you bullying him, want to punish him even though he is right. One day, if this community loses Happy because of your untouchable rules and system, then we'll see how you fare
The impact that back2warcraft has had in the vitality of the game if much greater than the one Happy has had. If it wasn't for b2w, happy wouldn't have where to play.
@@LuckerW3This scene is struggling. Happy is one of the major actors for years with B2W. If Happy is not there, it will quickly come to an end. The viewership ratings and the number of players inspired by Happy will also decrease, speeding up the end. That's why everyone need to support him instead of bullying him.
Happy is of course very important, but warcraft would survive without him. It even feels more exciting to watch a final of a tournament without knowing who is going to win. (I'm not saying I agree with the ban).
Well the fact is there are rules. And MMR deflection is bad. There are few servers and the Ping is an issue in alot of games. Not just wc3. You see lol players gets 30 minute matchmakings for not picking or ghosting for this exact thing.
ladder is for practice and fun. tournaments is for competitiveness. if I don't find an opponent/match fun to play I should be able to leave, based on Neo arguments smurfing and multiple accounts are a far bigger problem for ladder integrity than leaving games I don't find fun. stop creating rules that discourages people to play the game, specially when we have a low playerbase.
m-hm, and while writing those golden thoughts have u considered how anyone could tell if a player forfeits for smurfing purposes or cuz "i have no fun :
@@LMMEntertainment doesn’t matter if you are smurfing/multiaccount you are also doing it for practice or fun, that’s why there are codebar accounts in every ladder, that encourage those people to put more games into the ladder which is good
I don't think we ever criticized the developers. We criticized the need to punish someone who should be able to freely lose games they don't want to play. If it messes up the seeding system, I think host of the tournament can adjust for that fact during invite/consideration by having players in question, do playoffs before official tournaments
The same mods that banned Happy are telling people NOT to report leavers, and those reported for leaving got the report declined (i.e. no consequence). W3C mods are a joke.
Don't mistake my comment on 17:24. My comment was about online chess , because some guy claimed there is no timeout in online chess. and i just copy pasted him which message is displayed on every chess plattform.
allowing people to have bad behaviour because they are famous would be as bad as it gets. And leaving because your opponent is random and you don't like that is nuts.
you're off your rocker buddy, what attention? This is warcraft 3. If your video gets 10k views instead of 5k views you've still made like 10 dollars off of it.
@@evg3nius In your mind maybe you think getting 5k extra views once a month when you beat Happy is a big deal. In the real world out there, that's irrelevant. You are making zero sense. Not to mention that it's not a lot of players out there that even have an online presence on youtube or other sites, where they'd even benefit from the "extra exposure". Happy is not some content machine that half the warcraft ladder benefits from, that is just something you made up in your mind.
man sucks to be happy now. Can't fix the system's flaw and instead they bully happy. Volunteers or not players should NOT be punished for the flaw in the system.
one "solution" could be that you give people the ping slider.. but it has to be very specific - while searching if the system finds a player with the right MMR and it is not in the ping range, the system will lock the MMR of the searching player to have almost the same range of MMR as this player. With this solution Happy (or anyone) will have his ping right but he will have to wait for a match for a lot more time..which will generally force them to not use it at the end..
I have literally never played on 200 ping in W3 Champions. I am from Europe, playing with people in China. No idea how can someone play on 200ms, as this might happen in 1 of 1000 games.
What shocked me is the fact that people join an age-old game, join subcommunity with extra software...and than tank their MMR to be idiots and annoy lower level players. That's three steps to be bad person. O_o
Considering MMR a closed system, if happy can't leave any games he would kind of suck all the points like a black hole of MMR. There would be people with negative MMR anyway.
Thanks for taking the time to answer all those comments and suggestions. A lot of them were pretty rude but you still answered them in a professional manner, big thumbs up!
When you leave in 1 vs 1 you literally forfeit mmr . Whats the point of banning them? But they dont ban for bm in chat ( which is not a rare occurence for Happy).
made a comment on the other video with some complaining, was not knowing everything, now I think it's fine. Would kinda like to know happy point of view on this tho. Thanks for explaining.
I have absolutely no idea about the WC3-ladder details. But technically, you still could punish the leaving player without (significantly) rewarding the staying one without MMR deflation by adding a small amount of MMR to ALL players in the neighbouring elo range. E. g. leaving players loses 10 points, the 1000 people next to him in the ladder gain 10/1000 = 0.01 points.
I think the timing thing could work but they would also need to implement a daily limit, lets say , before an automatic timeout is implemented. if someone leaves more then 3 games under the one minute mark they might get a small timeout which could scale throughout the day or something like that, i cant possibly imagine how difficult it would be to implement something like this though and coders really are the unsung heroes of our society, i could see this working though. if happy leaves 10 times in his 4 hour play session well maybe the timeout would be such that he would need to wait an hour or two or possibly more, which doesn't seem like much to the casual player but that's a lot for a streamer or a professional player who relies on practice and streaming for income purposes.
The company couldn't figure out how to set up a system of punishment for leaving the game and decided that players should play the way the company wants, without paying money for it? This is not a game, but a job? If I play, I play the way I want, the company's problems do not concern me, if they don't pay, I am not a slave
🤦♂W3C not are company, it volunteers, that make their own FREE FOR USE system for community (it lives on donations). And that happens, that volunteers system better than Blizzard servers, so most high level players prefer w3c.
Ultimately this is all decided by what kind of service W3C wants to be and provide and as a non-player myself this entire exercise is purely academic, but one point I'd like to see addressed is - what's even the problem, really, with these MMR boosts through leaving? Let's cut through the estorism of the value of MMR integrity and go into the practical outcomes these boosts cause. Say Happy always leaves vs some player, let's call him Blaxord. This means Happy's MMR will artificially lower and Blaxord's MMR will artificially increase. The main issues this will directly cause is Happy facing lower MMR players than he should (not very realistic since he's consistently #1, and also entirely a consequence of his own actions, so his own responsibility which he accepts by doing this) and Blaxord facing higher MMR players than he should. Now if Blaxord were the one to voice complaints about this, that the ladder is now unfun to him because he keeps matching against opponents too strong for him because Happy keeps leaving against him, that'd be one thing. I can understand that, it's a perfectly reasonable complaint to raise. Other players above Blaxord's level may now also keep matching against Blaxord and are feeling the ladder unfun because they keep matching against players too easy for them, but that's of course less likely to be an issue since it's either singular players or relatively self-regulating macro effects if not, as their MMR will then "artificially" increase in turn by playing and winning against these players, putting roughly the same distance of MMR back between them as there would be without inflation. But, well, frankly I've heard neither of these kinds of complaints even so much as brought up in this entire conversation. It seems like the W3C ladder and MMR system is not failing to provide players with proper level opponents, at least not outside the natural limitations that this system has anyways, since MMR doesn't and likely should not realistically account for strength by matchup or simple off days. It feels like this situation is instead being decried by people who take MMR as a sort of actual credit value, instead of merely a tool for matchmaking, making it into a stupid ego game, basically pretending that Blaxord is unfairly benefitting from Happy leaving against him - but that's BS of course, it only has as a potential result that he gets matched with players too strong for him with no positive outcome for him in all this; he'd be the main voice who could reasonably complain about this. Not some other unrelated people whose egos are bruised over them getting a higher MMR score. But that's the thing - MMR is JUST matchmaking rating, a figure used by the system itself for matchmaking, and it's nothing beyond that. The only other thing that would come to mind is using W3C MMR as a qualifier metric for something like the W3C Finals which is like, yeah, okay, that might lead to some "mis-qualifications" but this doesn't feel like a unique problem caused by this (it will always have a disparity between the top and bottom of its players) and will be weeded out in the qualifiers/finals anyways. And if not, well, perhaps MMR shouldn't be "the" metric for qualifying for a tournament anyways, there's a reason most tournaments are not based off it. Oh and I guess it skews the "Winrates" statistics a bit further which... well, whatever, you could simply not count the insta-leave games for _those_ if that's the issue.
in tekken 8 you have the option to decline a match if its a bad connection no reason not to implement it in wc3 aswell if happy doesnt want to play chinease players with 115ms he doesnt want to if you want to play them with 115ms you can play them we should have the option to choose freely i dont know why you are trying to impose your view onto others why cant we choose and set the max ping we dont need to endure these bad matches with 100+
When Happy leaves a game vs Blade, he's giving him some mmr, and then Happy beats Starbuck, so Starbuck is losing the mmr he could have won, plus the mmr he lost. That creates bias (Blade / Starbuck) and can be conceived as a pattern or manipulation. I agree with penalizing this behavior. Now, about the ping in South America, it was just PaTo asking to increase the max. ping threshold, but I am not sure this represents the will of the South American community. 200 is too high for 1v1 (can work for team games), I suggest capping it to max. 180 ping because ingame ping can increase.
It's not about the rules, it's about the timing I personally, would know (and everyone at B2W knows) that Happy isn't doing this to break the system. There are reasons for it. I would at the very least time it slightly later after Happy's visa application didn't go through. I keep fearing that Happy quits someday. It's like losing the Joker in Batman, the whole show will lose a big chunk of its fun. I agree that there should be rules, but I also understand that you guys should evaluate the situation and make the best decision
15:19 => we mods and we dont wanna work, btw check #6 and see You have to accept higher ping and the rules of server, (cuz we have no worthy competitors) so fck u all Excellent attitude towards the community and their work. 27:55 Nobody is perfect ofc, but ban is not the solution here, u cant force people play when they dont want to, its basic and simple. moderators should propose solutions. change old solutions and even if it is necessary to introduce a new one Most of the community works at their jobs for 8 hours and it's just not their task to make the system as good as possible, waiting for a decision from the players looks like idleness No offence. Love wc3, love ur videos, love community and hate NE
Battlenet does not have better ping @ 23:00 I sometimes meet people from like Japan or South korea and either they have like 300 ping or I have. I don't think these games should start, I still believe there should be a ping cap so some matches won't ever happen but that is a compromise worth doing.
Neo, I appreciate the time and effort you have dedicated to explain why Happy was banned, and an additional video to explain most of the suggestions and address questions raised from the comments. I can see a lot of difficult decisions have to be made to preserve the integrity of MMR and without folks like you all dedicating all the time and love to this game, this game would have sunset ages ago. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
I'm just more surprised that most people simply don't think further than asking the question and just gonna defend their own cases until proven straight up wrong (or even afterwards). As another viewer, I completely understand the people's uproar over W3C not enforcing rules properly up until now, but I'll not understand the incredibly short-sighted thinking people are trying to force, with some even completely wanting to overthrow the system that was constantly built-upon for years of observance.
A lot of people don't seem to understand how big the difference is in size, with this community vs wow or lol, this community isn't even 10% the size I would guess. Rules have to fit the place they're put, not a general line across everything. This community just isnt big enough to work on that kinda scale. Sometimes the rules suck, but that's what needs to happen to keep the community afloat. Unless you wanna play against the same 3 people from now on, and wait 30-60 minutes for a game in between early leavers In drop mmr from loser only, eventually someone would theoretically win a match and not gain mmr on a win if the other player doesnt have enough to give. Also, dropping mmr on purpose is the biggest way to get people in the wrong level. If a pro loses a crap ton of mmr for leaving over and over, eventually theyre gonna be put against people that dont have the slightest chance against them, which isn't fair to the lower players. All of this is theory. Without implementing it, you cant know how exactly it will work out. But the risk of it going catastrophic isnt worth the chance that it might fix things. Irl, there are no do-overs. If they implement something and it goes horribly wrong, they cant just go back to before they did it. The damage is done. If you could streak across your work, and there was a CHANCE you could get promoted because the boss likes your gumption, will you try it? Hell no, the risk isnt worth it. Now move that to a scale of hundreds of people. Even good things will ruin it for others. A lot of people dont seem to be thinking in a big enough scale. The more people there are, the bigger the waves from the smallest change. Give the mods a break, theyre trying their best to keep a 20-30 year old game afloat so you can enjoy watching it.
Man. People got to stop complaining about ping. In a way, as Neo showed on the world maps, ping does make sense to challenge opponents from different regions.
What they need is a REPORT button ! plain and simple. Then moderator can see that the guy is trolling, either TKO his team, or leave most of the game, or don't play etc. and then after 3 warnings they ban him for some times let's say 1 week. then if does the same shit again, then ban for 1 month, they if again, ban 3 months, then 6 , then life ban.
So many cringe comments that disregard the state of WC3 competetive and it's player base, just because they are die hard happy fanboys.... Great content and work Neo, us sane people appreciate you keeping the game alive!
hi guys. I think you are taking their Freedom. I live in Iran, so believe me, I know how not having freedom looks like 😂... just let them be man.... ... ah and from where Happy lives, I think he is very familiar with the concept too. I don't know. maybe I'm wrong. Love your channel. thank you guys. 😊❤
its sad that you have to explain even the worst "solutions" from the clueless people... they forget that wc3 is way better than bnet. now they make these absurd points for an extreme case like happy like "now everyone has to?" no, most arent good enough to recreate the main problem on that scale :D i also think, that map veto shouldnt be possible^^
Waoo Neo. Is truly incredible how important you haves become to community. Is really significant your participation on all of this. Basically you are the formal vocal for everyone. Amazing bro.
@Back2Warcraft cause you are a 1500 mmr player trying to dictate what happens on pro ladder, your also lying in your video on many occasions and your snake oil on #5 and #6 is blatant your betraying your community with rules which none of you have to right to enforce go make your own rts if you want to have oppressive rules
Neo is the voice for the community, he's expressing his concerns, despite himself being lower mmr, compared to all the keyboard warriors, he cares for the game and tries his best.
@@stas9251 This guy is living in another planet. Dude, This is not about personalities, mmr or opinion in a video. The intentionality here is everything, no exist anyone who make a step ahead and organize all . Do you have idea all Neo have to do ? People is so unfair
tape every single match, have a vote of the players if it should be used for ladder or if not why, have a third independent party look over it if there is a disagreement. you gotta ask yourself if you want to play this as hobby and for fun or if its seriouse business in dire need of organization and structure. imo w3c / wc3 people need to take money into their hands and pay people to do a job. either you try making it professional or you stop complaining that you fun hobby isnt 100% fair
@@Back2Warcraft I have not drink for about a year for my already bad health was worsened by enormous amount of alcohol which was intaken over the years. Such relationship to alcohol is normal for us, yet, I am not of health to afford it, now even a sense (smell) of it makes me mildly sick. Take care people.
i play online chess on 2100 elo , and you will get banned for not making a first move (after many warnings) JUST LIKE on w3champions. IF it wouldn'T get banned, every ladder could get flooded with afk bots and destroy literally every ladder of any game. Btw its the same with other games too obviously
it's because 2nd player cant play/get his turn if 1st didnt finish his one. But wc3 is realtime game, ie 2nd player can act independently of 1st player. Ie ping matters and player actions are not that important for other player.
Why not just make a "make only the first few required moves" afk bot? With engines, online chess can be completely automated, and even be made to look like a human is playing it (selectively choose random suboptimal moves to cover the fact that an engine is playing). It doesn't sound like forcing someone to make the first move solves anything.
W3Champions is great, never has been a more stable ladder and the privilege to play against anybody from all over the world with max 150 ms, all these pathetic Happy fanboys saying over 100 ms is too much go play on LAN if you gonna keep crying about ping.
Check the views of every game that has Happy in it vs any other game :) He is horrible socially, but we're not watching the Kardashians, we're watching WC3 games
tl;dr People don't understand that WC3 is a dead game with just a few players, so you can't introduce limits for the matchmaking.
imagine being so fucking good at a game that you cause like an mmr crises xD
Kinda feel bad for Happy. He can’t go to RaRa, gets banned, loses 3-1 to Sok, now forced to play against a guy who threatened his life and a bunch super laggy games. He doesn’t have much else so it’s clear why he gave in pretty easily (plus he is pretty professional all things considered)
@@illidan10 it is, it's unplayable compared to 100 or 90 you're trash go to dota and keep coping
I agree
who threatened his life?
@@hasankibar797blade
Blade?
Why W3Champions decided their move was to punish Happy, and not the toxic players?
Starbuck is toxic for using random?
@@svsv1191 I am not talking about Starbuck.
@@svsv1191 You know who we're talking about
@@timurradman3999 I agree with that part
I understand you but we are talking about the ladder abuse man
The more you nerf undead, the more they have to rely on perfect micro which needs less than 100ms. pretty simple as that, Happy absolute genius!
perfect coil nova coordination
@@LMMEntertainment perfect spell timings including coil and nova*
Neo in first video: "People leave if they have a ping of 200ms."
Neo in second video: "Why is everybody saying there is 200ms ping?!?"
Edit: BTW love you man! :)
Players should have the option to forfeit mmr if they don't gain anything (fun, valuable practice) from a match. Forcing them to waste their time "for the greater good of the community" is evil. Happy isn't the community's slave.
+
I can't leave games anymore without punishment = slavery. This community is something else.
that doesnt work. say the cost to forfeit is losing 20 mmr. now if a player forfieted 5 games in a day that would remove 100 mmr out of they ladder system permanently. I believe a new player starts at 1000 or 1200 mmr. so it would only take 10 or 12 days for a player that forfiets a lot to remove an entire player worth of mmr from the system. There are not enough new players joining to feed a system like that and you could probably be near the top of the ladder without really playing after a while XD
So Happy can use Battlenet. He is not forced to use w3c.
If someone doesn't want to play vs someone and he wants to leave, let him just leave.
If some ppl, have the benefit to extract MMR from Happy cuz he doesn't want to play them, accept it as part of the system and allow Happy the same freedom like any other Player and spend time withe something more useful than harassing Happy?
I admire W3champions, for what they did and do for the scene. I also understand the goal to keep the MMR System as fair, as possible.
Don't know exactly why Happy doesn't want to play certain players, I am not in his genius mind^^ but forcing ppl to play someone, they for what ever reason don't want to play, has to me just kindergarden teacher vibes.
It's also not fair, to pick out individual Player to disabuse them and change their behavior with the force of treat or punishment, simply cuz they don't want to play certain players.
Hope you guys at least doesn't use this treat or punishment tactics on ur social relationships 😉✌️
I seriously couldn't care less about some tournaments using ladder as a means to get players, that is a stupid system to begin with. This is how you get smurf accounts en masse because now players need one account for MMR boosting to get into tournaments, and one account to test strategies and playing different. That system is so incredibly flawed, it will still be terrible even if Happy and everyone else always plays every game fully. Because imagine you just get bad luck and match vs Happy 10 times within a day. You will lose MMR and possibly get thrown out of the tournament simply due to matchup RNG. Or better yet, imagine you're Dise, you win 10 times against Hawk on ladder, but Hawk gets a few lucky wins vs Happy, and now Hawk's in the tournament ahead of you, despite you destroying him (pure hypothetical here). Fix the tournaments relying on MMR to select its players, and the need for "ladder integrity" will disappear.
Let me be clear. Thanks to Happy, you grew your audience, made money, and are making a living. Now, you bullying him, want to punish him even though he is right. One day, if this community loses Happy because of your untouchable rules and system, then we'll see how you fare
The impact that back2warcraft has had in the vitality of the game if much greater than the one Happy has had. If it wasn't for b2w, happy wouldn't have where to play.
@@LuckerW3This scene is struggling. Happy is one of the major actors for years with B2W. If Happy is not there, it will quickly come to an end. The viewership ratings and the number of players inspired by Happy will also decrease, speeding up the end. That's why everyone need to support him instead of bullying him.
Happy is of course very important, but warcraft would survive without him. It even feels more exciting to watch a final of a tournament without knowing who is going to win. (I'm not saying I agree with the ban).
Well the fact is there are rules. And MMR deflection is bad. There are few servers and the Ping is an issue in alot of games. Not just wc3. You see lol players gets 30 minute matchmakings for not picking or ghosting for this exact thing.
MMR is all messed up... happened to me 4 times that I won in 3v3 and lost 400 mmr !! like WTH ...
ladder is for practice and fun.
tournaments is for competitiveness.
if I don't find an opponent/match fun to play I should be able to leave,
based on Neo arguments smurfing and multiple accounts are a far bigger problem for ladder integrity than leaving games I don't find fun.
stop creating rules that discourages people to play the game, specially when we have a low playerbase.
m-hm, and while writing those golden thoughts have u considered how anyone could tell if a player forfeits for smurfing purposes or cuz "i have no fun :
@@LMMEntertainment doesn’t matter if you are smurfing/multiaccount you are also doing it for practice or fun, that’s why there are codebar accounts in every ladder, that encourage those people to put more games into the ladder which is good
I don't think we ever criticized the developers. We criticized the need to punish someone who should be able to freely lose games they don't want to play. If it messes up the seeding system, I think host of the tournament can adjust for that fact during invite/consideration by having players in question, do playoffs before official tournaments
The same mods that banned Happy are telling people NOT to report leavers, and those reported for leaving got the report declined (i.e. no consequence). W3C mods are a joke.
They won't show this in their patronizing response, they are acting like kbg or something with how they are controlling perceptions 😂😂😂
You should be able to quit anytime you want, and play any way you like. You pay with MMR. Everything else is not great imo.
what w3c suposed to do when ur mmr drops to 0 or even negative???
Me over in NZ/Aus with 300+ ping to China, Korea and Europe.
Don't mistake my comment on 17:24. My comment was about online chess , because some guy claimed there is no timeout in online chess. and i just copy pasted him which message is displayed on every chess plattform.
Big Kaiser
Why would people blacklist Happy? He's their meal ticket. Any game posted with the title "I beat happy" automatically gets more attention.
allowing people to have bad behaviour because they are famous would be as bad as it gets. And leaving because your opponent is random and you don't like that is nuts.
you're off your rocker buddy, what attention? This is warcraft 3. If your video gets 10k views instead of 5k views you've still made like 10 dollars off of it.
you still have to beat him though
@@zelassin Yes, if you get 10k views instead of 5k views it's called MORE attention. Is the concept of MORE difficult to understand for you?
@@evg3nius In your mind maybe you think getting 5k extra views once a month when you beat Happy is a big deal. In the real world out there, that's irrelevant. You are making zero sense. Not to mention that it's not a lot of players out there that even have an online presence on youtube or other sites, where they'd even benefit from the "extra exposure". Happy is not some content machine that half the warcraft ladder benefits from, that is just something you made up in your mind.
Had a few 1000+ ping games on bnet vs koreans. It was a lagfest, but i won somehow. Koreans lagged hard too, so it was kinda fun actually))
Losing Ancient of Wars to the creeps... I am responsible for one such story, I shared it in Discord earlier today.
What is the problem about some people "disconnecting" from specific regions?
man sucks to be happy now. Can't fix the system's flaw and instead they bully happy. Volunteers or not players should NOT be punished for the flaw in the system.
Bro, this guy got outrageous stats whilst giving away free wins xD
one "solution" could be that you give people the ping slider.. but it has to be very specific - while searching if the system finds a player with the right MMR and it is not in the ping range, the system will lock the MMR of the searching player to have almost the same range of MMR as this player. With this solution Happy (or anyone) will have his ping right but he will have to wait for a match for a lot more time..which will generally force them to not use it at the end..
Hahaha..)) Seriously, it's a circus with horses
I have literally never played on 200 ping in W3 Champions. I am from Europe, playing with people in China. No idea how can someone play on 200ms, as this might happen in 1 of 1000 games.
What shocked me is the fact that people join an age-old game, join subcommunity with extra software...and than tank their MMR to be idiots and annoy lower level players. That's three steps to be bad person. O_o
"no one plays on 200ms" is incorrect I do. But I'm sure the VAST majority don't
Considering MMR a closed system, if happy can't leave any games he would kind of suck all the points like a black hole of MMR. There would be people with negative MMR anyway.
Thanks for taking the time to answer all those comments and suggestions. A lot of them were pretty rude but you still answered them in a professional manner, big thumbs up!
"Leads to negative MMR"
Lmao yea sure
When you leave in 1 vs 1 you literally forfeit mmr . Whats the point of banning them? But they dont ban for bm in chat ( which is not a rare occurence for Happy).
made a comment on the other video with some complaining, was not knowing everything, now I think it's fine. Would kinda like to know happy point of view on this tho. Thanks for explaining.
Double standard. When discussing game balance, why do you only focus on top players and not consider the experience of most players?
Why not auto ban 30 minutes for each leave? Which increases with leaves per day and resets the other day? 😊
I have absolutely no idea about the WC3-ladder details. But technically, you still could punish the leaving player without (significantly) rewarding the staying one without MMR deflation by adding a small amount of MMR to ALL players in the neighbouring elo range. E. g. leaving players loses 10 points, the 1000 people next to him in the ladder gain 10/1000 = 0.01 points.
TLDW: All your comments saying: "Why don't you just do [insert stupid suggestion]!?", are stupid.
1 day suspension isn't really a ban imo
I think the timing thing could work but they would also need to implement a daily limit, lets say , before an automatic timeout is implemented. if someone leaves more then 3 games under the one minute mark they might get a small timeout which could scale throughout the day or something like that, i cant possibly imagine how difficult it would be to implement something like this though and coders really are the unsung heroes of our society, i could see this working though. if happy leaves 10 times in his 4 hour play session well maybe the timeout would be such that he would need to wait an hour or two or possibly more, which doesn't seem like much to the casual player but that's a lot for a streamer or a professional player who relies on practice and streaming for income purposes.
i hope people stop using w3champions now
NEO flip flops to much...
The company couldn't figure out how to set up a system of punishment for leaving the game and decided that players should play the way the company wants, without paying money for it? This is not a game, but a job? If I play, I play the way I want, the company's problems do not concern me, if they don't pay, I am not a slave
Happy is a professional player. So in a way this is his job.
yea we should be free to choose whatever ping we want to play on insted of beign forced their agenda down our throat
🤦♂W3C not are company, it volunteers, that make their own FREE FOR USE system for community (it lives on donations). And that happens, that volunteers system better than Blizzard servers, so most high level players prefer w3c.
@@Eris-Discordi
Just because they work for free doesn't mean others should do the same
@@Eris-Discordi
Ultimately this is all decided by what kind of service W3C wants to be and provide and as a non-player myself this entire exercise is purely academic, but one point I'd like to see addressed is - what's even the problem, really, with these MMR boosts through leaving? Let's cut through the estorism of the value of MMR integrity and go into the practical outcomes these boosts cause. Say Happy always leaves vs some player, let's call him Blaxord. This means Happy's MMR will artificially lower and Blaxord's MMR will artificially increase. The main issues this will directly cause is Happy facing lower MMR players than he should (not very realistic since he's consistently #1, and also entirely a consequence of his own actions, so his own responsibility which he accepts by doing this) and Blaxord facing higher MMR players than he should. Now if Blaxord were the one to voice complaints about this, that the ladder is now unfun to him because he keeps matching against opponents too strong for him because Happy keeps leaving against him, that'd be one thing. I can understand that, it's a perfectly reasonable complaint to raise. Other players above Blaxord's level may now also keep matching against Blaxord and are feeling the ladder unfun because they keep matching against players too easy for them, but that's of course less likely to be an issue since it's either singular players or relatively self-regulating macro effects if not, as their MMR will then "artificially" increase in turn by playing and winning against these players, putting roughly the same distance of MMR back between them as there would be without inflation.
But, well, frankly I've heard neither of these kinds of complaints even so much as brought up in this entire conversation. It seems like the W3C ladder and MMR system is not failing to provide players with proper level opponents, at least not outside the natural limitations that this system has anyways, since MMR doesn't and likely should not realistically account for strength by matchup or simple off days. It feels like this situation is instead being decried by people who take MMR as a sort of actual credit value, instead of merely a tool for matchmaking, making it into a stupid ego game, basically pretending that Blaxord is unfairly benefitting from Happy leaving against him - but that's BS of course, it only has as a potential result that he gets matched with players too strong for him with no positive outcome for him in all this; he'd be the main voice who could reasonably complain about this. Not some other unrelated people whose egos are bruised over them getting a higher MMR score. But that's the thing - MMR is JUST matchmaking rating, a figure used by the system itself for matchmaking, and it's nothing beyond that.
The only other thing that would come to mind is using W3C MMR as a qualifier metric for something like the W3C Finals which is like, yeah, okay, that might lead to some "mis-qualifications" but this doesn't feel like a unique problem caused by this (it will always have a disparity between the top and bottom of its players) and will be weeded out in the qualifiers/finals anyways. And if not, well, perhaps MMR shouldn't be "the" metric for qualifying for a tournament anyways, there's a reason most tournaments are not based off it. Oh and I guess it skews the "Winrates" statistics a bit further which... well, whatever, you could simply not count the insta-leave games for _those_ if that's the issue.
in tekken 8 you have the option to decline a match if its a bad connection no reason not to implement it in wc3 aswell if happy doesnt want to play chinease players with 115ms he doesnt want to if you want to play them with 115ms you can play them we should have the option to choose freely i dont know why you are trying to impose your view onto others why cant we choose and set the max ping we dont need to endure these bad matches with 100+
When Happy leaves a game vs Blade, he's giving him some mmr, and then Happy beats Starbuck, so Starbuck is losing the mmr he could have won, plus the mmr he lost. That creates bias (Blade / Starbuck) and can be conceived as a pattern or manipulation. I agree with penalizing this behavior. Now, about the ping in South America, it was just PaTo asking to increase the max. ping threshold, but I am not sure this represents the will of the South American community. 200 is too high for 1v1 (can work for team games), I suggest capping it to max. 180 ping because ingame ping can increase.
It's not about the rules, it's about the timing
I personally, would know (and everyone at B2W knows) that Happy isn't doing this to break the system. There are reasons for it. I would at the very least time it slightly later after Happy's visa application didn't go through. I keep fearing that Happy quits someday. It's like losing the Joker in Batman, the whole show will lose a big chunk of its fun.
I agree that there should be rules, but I also understand that you guys should evaluate the situation and make the best decision
he won't leave. he said that he couldn’t do anything else in life.
@@14types There's always a possibility
15:19 => we mods and we dont wanna work, btw check #6 and see You have to accept higher ping and the rules of server, (cuz we have no worthy competitors) so fck u all
Excellent attitude towards the community and their work.
27:55 Nobody is perfect ofc, but ban is not the solution here, u cant force people play when they dont want to, its basic and simple. moderators should propose solutions. change old solutions and even if it is necessary to introduce a new one
Most of the community works at their jobs for 8 hours and it's just not their task to make the system as good as possible, waiting for a decision from the players looks like idleness
No offence. Love wc3, love ur videos, love community
and hate NE
What did blade say to happy ?
my average ping is around 100, and vs koreans I always lag, like 335 ping aorund that..... and I'm in Canada.
Battlenet does not have better ping @ 23:00 I sometimes meet people from like Japan or South korea and either they have like 300 ping or I have. I don't think these games should start, I still believe there should be a ping cap so some matches won't ever happen but that is a compromise worth doing.
Neo, I appreciate the time and effort you have dedicated to explain why Happy was banned, and an additional video to explain most of the suggestions and address questions raised from the comments. I can see a lot of difficult decisions have to be made to preserve the integrity of MMR and without folks like you all dedicating all the time and love to this game, this game would have sunset ages ago. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
I'm just more surprised that most people simply don't think further than asking the question and just gonna defend their own cases until proven straight up wrong (or even afterwards). As another viewer, I completely understand the people's uproar over W3C not enforcing rules properly up until now, but I'll not understand the incredibly short-sighted thinking people are trying to force, with some even completely wanting to overthrow the system that was constantly built-upon for years of observance.
Happy is the Meta xd
Get some more servers 😅
A lot of people don't seem to understand how big the difference is in size, with this community vs wow or lol, this community isn't even 10% the size I would guess. Rules have to fit the place they're put, not a general line across everything. This community just isnt big enough to work on that kinda scale. Sometimes the rules suck, but that's what needs to happen to keep the community afloat. Unless you wanna play against the same 3 people from now on, and wait 30-60 minutes for a game in between early leavers
In drop mmr from loser only, eventually someone would theoretically win a match and not gain mmr on a win if the other player doesnt have enough to give. Also, dropping mmr on purpose is the biggest way to get people in the wrong level. If a pro loses a crap ton of mmr for leaving over and over, eventually theyre gonna be put against people that dont have the slightest chance against them, which isn't fair to the lower players.
All of this is theory. Without implementing it, you cant know how exactly it will work out. But the risk of it going catastrophic isnt worth the chance that it might fix things. Irl, there are no do-overs. If they implement something and it goes horribly wrong, they cant just go back to before they did it. The damage is done. If you could streak across your work, and there was a CHANCE you could get promoted because the boss likes your gumption, will you try it? Hell no, the risk isnt worth it. Now move that to a scale of hundreds of people. Even good things will ruin it for others.
A lot of people dont seem to be thinking in a big enough scale. The more people there are, the bigger the waves from the smallest change. Give the mods a break, theyre trying their best to keep a 20-30 year old game afloat so you can enjoy watching it.
Leaving games early?
Can't believe this is similar to fighting games where players quit before they lose...
if you leave a game after a minute because your ping sucks just dont make it count towards your rank, just an idea
Man. People got to stop complaining about ping. In a way, as Neo showed on the world maps, ping does make sense to challenge opponents from different regions.
What they need is a REPORT button ! plain and simple. Then moderator can see that the guy is trolling, either TKO his team, or leave most of the game, or don't play etc. and then after 3 warnings they ban him for some times let's say 1 week. then if does the same shit again, then ban for 1 month, they if again, ban 3 months, then 6 , then life ban.
so u compare ping with ? just ping? u have to compare player 1 ping to player 2 ping nothing above that is relevant .......
Appreciate you Neo. I do think I had decent suggestions if you want to have a look!
Thanks, Neo!
Thank you, Neo
So many cringe comments that disregard the state of WC3 competetive and it's player base, just because they are die hard happy fanboys....
Great content and work Neo, us sane people appreciate you keeping the game alive!
hi guys. I think you are taking their Freedom. I live in Iran, so believe me, I know how not having freedom looks like 😂...
just let them be man....
...
ah and from where Happy lives, I think he is very familiar with the concept too.
I don't know. maybe I'm wrong. Love your channel. thank you guys. 😊❤
its sad that you have to explain even the worst "solutions" from the clueless people... they forget that wc3 is way better than bnet. now they make these absurd points for an extreme case like happy like "now everyone has to?" no, most arent good enough to recreate the main problem on that scale :D i also think, that map veto shouldnt be possible^^
feels good to see comments of people who understand the core problem
Waoo Neo. Is truly incredible how important you haves become to community. Is really significant your participation on all of this.
Basically you are the formal vocal for everyone. Amazing bro.
Thanks mate, there's a lot of harsh comment here in these videos but yours made me smile!
@Back2Warcraft cause you are a 1500 mmr player trying to dictate what happens on pro ladder, your also lying in your video on many occasions and your snake oil on #5 and #6 is blatant your betraying your community with rules which none of you have to right to enforce go make your own rts if you want to have oppressive rules
Neo is the voice for the community, he's expressing his concerns, despite himself being lower mmr, compared to all the keyboard warriors, he cares for the game and tries his best.
@@stas9251 This guy is living in another planet. Dude, This is not about personalities, mmr or opinion in a video.
The intentionality here is everything, no exist anyone who make a step ahead and organize all . Do you have idea all Neo have to do ?
People is so unfair
MMM, It"s so fukicng deeeeeeeep
I'm glad it all worked out and didn't cuz too much drama or a lot of extra work for the WC3C staff
tape every single match, have a vote of the players if it should be used for ladder or if not why, have a third independent party look over it if there is a disagreement.
you gotta ask yourself if you want to play this as hobby and for fun or if its seriouse business in dire need of organization and structure.
imo w3c / wc3 people need to take money into their hands and pay people to do a job. either you try making it professional or you stop complaining that you fun hobby isnt 100% fair
mouse lader
Random comment, but Neo looks to be in way better health these days, face looking slimmer. Hello Fresh?
it must be!
also way way wayy less alcohol compared to ~2 years ago
@@Back2Warcraftagreed with smooth! Alcohol is poison and blows up the face- everything in moderation 😂🎉
@@Back2Warcraft I have not drink for about a year for my already bad health was worsened by enormous amount of alcohol which was intaken over the years. Such relationship to alcohol is normal for us, yet, I am not of health to afford it, now even a sense (smell) of it makes me mildly sick. Take care people.
Naw. He is harvesting adrenochrome from the newest/youngest player, Kaho. There's a reason why he calls him "wonder boy" ^_^
i play online chess on 2100 elo , and you will get banned for not making a first move (after many warnings) JUST LIKE on w3champions. IF it wouldn'T get banned, every ladder could get flooded with afk bots and destroy literally every ladder of any game. Btw its the same with other games too obviously
it's because 2nd player cant play/get his turn if 1st didnt finish his one. But wc3 is realtime game, ie 2nd player can act independently of 1st player. Ie ping matters and player actions are not that important for other player.
Why not just make a "make only the first few required moves" afk bot? With engines, online chess can be completely automated, and even be made to look like a human is playing it (selectively choose random suboptimal moves to cover the fact that an engine is playing). It doesn't sound like forcing someone to make the first move solves anything.
Fair said. Good, that ban worked.
W3Champions is great, never has been a more stable ladder and the privilege to play against anybody from all over the world with max 150 ms, all these pathetic Happy fanboys saying over 100 ms is too much go play on LAN if you gonna keep crying about ping.
I don't care about 1v1 ladder but anything other than 1v1 should be INSTANT punishment with ramping up (1 day -> 3 day -> 9 days etc)
Happy is an absolutely horrible ambassador for the game. Social skills of a snail. Amazingly talented and good though.
Check the views of every game that has Happy in it vs any other game :) He is horrible socially, but we're not watching the Kardashians, we're watching WC3 games