i switched to the thumbs down locking position and gave me better control of pistol, imporved mu accuracy and now i have one grip for rovolver and semi auto that works extremely well... thanks for the video.
This is what we need. Our elders stepping up and explaining clearly why, sometimes, the old way and the old wisdom is still the best way. Thanks guys! Great stuff.
The "thumbs down" hold is the only universal hold I can use effectively with all of my handguns no matter the design. Maybe it's because I grew up shooting big bore revolvers but I find this technique allows me to accurately shoot everything I own without having to relearn a gun-specific grip.
Now I wanna go to the range to test this out. I shoot both semi-auto and wheel gun, so it’d be great to have one hold to not even think about than having to switch thumb positions like I playing thumb war with whatever gun I’m holding 👍
I'm a veteran pinshooter with a modicum of insight into grip mechanics. I had hereto fore only the used the low thumb grip on revolvers.I went to the range today intent on trying that grip on my ShieldPlus. Gripping the gun in that manner for some dry fire warmup, the grip felt extremely odd and uncomfortable. I felt as if I barely had any purchase. Low expectations immediately followed. Still, I pressed on and fired 5 rounds on target at 7 yards. Lo and behold, I had shot a 1 1/2" group with 4 rounds in one 1/2" hole. Subsequent 5 round string produced similar results. So much for the "it doesn't feel right" objection. Thanks, guys.
This was clearly helpful the first time I tried it. A truly great presentation. The piece was a glock 26, but I will try this with everything. Thank you.
Bill explains it so well: the Old School grip has worked so well for me since I learned to shoot a handgun and it's still working well today. No need to change my grip.
I grew up using a thumbs down grip, shooting mainly revolvers bac in the day. The instructors tried to change that shooting a Glock in basic firearms training, but eventually gave up and told me to keep shooting the way I was used to.
When I started shooting thumbs foward my slide was failing to lock back on the empty magazine. Also I started getting short stroke malfunctions. I went back to thumbs down and never had anymore issues.
There is an enormous amount of knowledge and experience in these two men, and selflessly sharing their knowledge with the rest of the 'pro gun' community! Thank you gentlemen for all you do! I can tell that firearm safety is your top priority. A lot of people will learn and benefit from you.
Thank you for the informative video. After 30 years of law enforcement, it is always interesting, and sometimes comical on how the "latest and greatest" new tactic and lesson is mandated into training. This is a prime example of how there are different methods in achieving the same goal and the emphasis needs to be kept on "what works for you and why". Thanks again and keep up the great lessons.
Thank you, fellows, for this GREAT advice. I’ll add one more common sense reason that is especially applicable to we long-term - and getting considerable older - shooters: a low thumb grip can help to compensate for increasing hand weakness and issues like arthritis.
As a young man I learned thumb down. Then in my 30s I switched to thumb strait as that was what most instructors I saw were teaching. Now I have switched back and have noticed less fatigue and less arthritis pain after time at the range. Almost gave up my big bores and switched to .380. But with switching back to thumb down hopefully can get another couple years carrying and shooting reliably stopping calibers.
I love Massad, he's not rude like Ken. He also didn't FLAG Bill 50 times in the video. He goes out of his way to NOT point a gun at anyone 👌 I watch every single Massad video, and ZERO Ken videos 🤷♂️
Excellent video! I'm retired now, but as a former state certified police firearms master Instructor, I have always taught the "thumbs down" method. We never taught the popular "thumbs forward" method because it causes so many shooter-induced malfunctions. People seem to forget (or not know) the most basic rule of shooting any semi-auto pistol -- "Keep all fingers off of and away from the external controls and the slide." The Army's very first training manual for the 1911 even spoke of this. But, I suppose it all comes down to personal preference.
I’ve been shooting handguns for more than 20 years and am always learning something new. Today is one of those days. We are blessed that these two gentleman are sharing this knowledge with the shooting community. Thanks for the video 👍😎
Always wondered why Bill Wilson used a low thumb grip. All makes sense. Really helpful for less strong shooters that need to use their limited grip strength effectively.
I always used the low thumb grip because I came from the revolver. When I bought my first semi-auto back in 2008 and took my first defensive handgun class, I was immediately catechize for my grip. The trainers had me change to the straight thumb grip. This is what I use today, unless I'm shooting a revolver. But I do like the low thumb grip, as pointed out by Mas, for it's grip strength.
Wow; Mr Ayoob, I have been reading your information since I was a teenager, as a police officer in Miami, and now , as a 62 year old retired LEO; you never cease to amaze me with super important techniques and information? I thank you from The bottom of my heart; aside from Sheer luck, I know your teaching has kept me alive? Thank you ; Donn
One of the few times I’ve seen Ayoob admit there is more than one way to do something. Usually he is more rigid and thinks there is only one way to do something which is rarely true. I really enjoyed and respected his explanation
My experience and reasons are the same as Bill’s and it’s always worked well for me whether revolver or semiauto. Great, well reasoned inputs from Mas as well. Excellent video, thank you.
I just came from the range after watching this. Sig Pistol couldn't do the thumb down without the mag release being at risk of being ejected. However, the Glocks were a far different story. Absolute game changer for me. Thanks MA! This channel is fantastic. The reahave you all help wl world without all of the obnoxious behavior by the gun bros. I will have you guys help me with my 2011. Appreciate you!
Great stuff. As an old revolver guy I use and teach low thumbs as an ootion as well. I have had to modify students grip to the low thumb (revolver grip) with the M&P EZ Since the grip safety pins at the bottom its less forgiving if one doesn't have a full grip. Low thumbs guarentees that. Especially with the seniors that have weakened grip strength.
Great points. I found that after carrying a 1911 in law enforcement for over 4 decades, once people started talking about using the high thumb to help control recoil and make sure a thumb didn't accidentally knock the grip safety off, I couldn't adequately dis-engage the grip safety, as Mas points out. I was told to get the grip safety sensitized. However, sticking with my old low thumb grip, if your squeezing the grip, the thumb doesn't accidentally engage the thumb safety. Watching an Army training film on the 1911, the low thumb grips is taught. I guess things come full circle.
Started with thumb down swinging a hammer when i was a kid (lol grandfather had a bench we would drive nails into to keep us busy) just carried that over to my revolver shooting and then semi auto's. Bow's three finger grip thumb down, hammers, ratchets,driving, and even throwing punches. And now after 40+ years of use...i also use it with my canes.
I could never get my head around this "stick your thumbs straight forward and stack them almost on the slide release" style of shooting, so I feel vindicated in seeing cracks appearing in its foundation at long last.
If you use both hands with thumbs down, the thumb of the shooting hand is in the way of the support hand, resulting in less contact surface that would be available. Thumb down one handed makes a lot of sense while some might prefer to ride the thumb safety depending on the handgun. If the slidestop gets in the way highly depends on the specific gun and your hands.
@@onpsxmember im new to shooting pistols and my thumbs down grip makes me infinitely more accurate then using thumbs forward. everyone is telling me im doing it wrong but how come i can hit my target almost everytime.
@@vexxy0ps689 You have a sample size of one, anecdotal evidence. It's not wrong. It can work well with your hands and handgun or definitely with revolvers. it's not that you could get the same or better results with the thumbs forward grip, it may be that you haven't invested the same time into it. Search for "deep dive into the thumbs forward grip". Anything you give a chance to see if it helps you has to be tried and slightly adjusted maybe over several months. It's similar to those that are used to iron sights and they're damn good with them. They're reluctant to try red dot sights cause at first they suck and over there is what they know and are good at. It may take 6 months to a year to reap the benefits. Some realize the positive effects their long red dot session had on their iron sights shooting, maybe even breaking a plateau and then jump in with both feet. Try the video "deep dive into the thumbs forward grip". Btw...it could be that if you get a different gun in the future, it may lend itself more to it based on size. I mean if you shoot a micro 9 and your thumb would stick in front of the muzzle it's less than helpful.
All great points. I've seen this taught before, especially for single hand grip. But this is also taught in most striking techniques. You get a rock hard fist when you bring the thumb down, and you strike out like cracking a whip, and then squeeze your fist into that grip as the strike is landing both to protect the hand and to apply a solid strike.
Never have been a big hand gun user. Started at 5 when my Grandpa gave me my first rifle, a '67 Springfield Bolt Action Single shot. 22. My daddy taught me more than I can say. But being 59 almost 60 last 35+ years been shooting my mom's old semi-auto .22. My thumb is used to being curled down around the stock. I shot a cap & ball Black Powder a lot as a late teenager never been trained on handgun. Did real well with it. Only shot my sons .45 once back in 2012. Don't know if I used my thumb down, but I believe I probably did. Thanks a lot for the advice, when I do start using a handgun again, hope to in the near future I will definitely check how I'm doing it. 2nd time I've watched you gentleman plan to a lot more. Thanks greatly from a old homegrown Texan!
Just watched for the 1st time...that I remember. Great discussion and comments!! Massad always has good information, comments, and well thought out reasons for proper firearms handling/shooting. Thank you!!!
Thank you for this discussion. I've always found the thumb forward grip a little awkward, but that was what all the cool kids were doing. I'm going to have to reconsider my grip the next time I hit the range. Thanks again!
Man! There is so much knowledge and experience in these 2 heads it's astounding. Literally everything said makes perfect sense and I wouldn't comment until testing for myself. it works. Now that I've been working on the "2 thumbs straight" grip for a number of years (I finally got it down!) I'm about to practice with a brand new grip from now on. Now, it I can just get to the range. Thanks guys very much.
As a young pup I would read every article that had your name Mas. Now as a seasoned 53 year old I’m still learning from you. Bill you are just as great and make a fine product. God bless you both.
Thank you. I'm tired of people telling me my grip is wrong on a semi auto. The thumbs down grip works. And you can switch between platforms without changing your grip fundamentals.
Informative, timely video by the incomparable Massad Ayoob (and Bill Wilson of course.) As a petite female shooter with very small hands I've had difficulty with my strong hand's thumb joint hurting trying to manage recoil when shooting pistols with a wider grip. Arthritis affects my finger strength as well. I was taught the thumbs straight, pointing towards the target grip. Can't wait to try this at the range.
11:50, exactly. I been using thumb down for a long time and it's difficult to explain to people that I can wrap my support thumb down also on my 686, but a little snubby, then my thumb goes a tad higher and support thumb rests on top, unless i'm shooting fast in which case with the snub my support thumb becomes thumbs high.
It's good to see that there are still some who understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that there really is no one size fits all. I can't count the number of times when well meaning folks have told me that my grip is wrong, and tried to fix it. Just like Bill I was shooting revolvers (still carry one often too) long before I even touched a semi-auto handgun. I hit what I shoot at with my low thumb grip, and the new all the rage thumbs forward grip is uncomfortable for me, due to an old wrist injury.
I'm a low thumb guy and always have been. Trying the other methods in the past just didn't feel comfortable and I felt as if I had much less grip on the gun. I now shoot Wild Bunch traditional and it is paying off using that low thumb.
I, too, learned with revolvers and, even shooting M29 Smiths, shot one handed. The thumb down grip is natural for me. In my practices, I did find issues with secure one hand holds with the thumb anywhere but down - especially with bulky lightweight polymer guns. Long story short - enjoyed your video!
Thank you for informing people about the thumbs down hold ! I have been a certified instructor for over 20 years . Revolvers require a stronger grip ( thumbs down ! ) . Thumbs down gives you a stronger grip on semi autos as well . But , also you need to keep your hands away from moving parts like the slide . Keep up the good work !
I started shooting a revolver first/low thumb and when I started shooting autos I kept the same grip for years.Later when I started USPSA and IDPA shooting I switched to thumbs forward and still do. I don’t know anyone who shoots revolver thumbs forward as it’s not a natural way to grip one.
Thank you for explaining in detail about the position of the thumb and how much of a difference it makes . I started on a wheel gun that later use a semiautomatic. You make easily to understand like you do on your other videos . Thank you
Been a revolver shooter my whole life. Always struggled with semi autos and all the thumb positions because I could never replicate my speed and accuracy with the wheel gun. Went out and said to heck with it, I am going to use what works and low and behold could shoot lights out X ring evaporating groups.
Solved my problem of how to grip the pistol. I thought my right thumb was crowding the safety. Now there's plenty of clearance with the thumb down grip. Thanks for the tip!
I'm really glad to see commentary about single-hand shooting. Due to needing a cane, I can only shoot one-handed, and it's my weak hand at that. I run a full-sized 9mm, and while watching this video I checked out my default grip, and was pleased to see it was a low thumb grip, although I think I could get it lower. Honestly, I'd not really thought too much about that before, so thank you for bringing that to my attention, and also showing how it matters across different weapons. I'll make sure to use that awareness when I practice, so that I can train my thumb properly.
Thank you gentlemen for your very informative instructions. A lot of people can learn good weapon handling skills listening to you. I always listen carefully to your messages & enjoy your straight forward demonstrations.
When I took my CPL training (finally), on the range the instructor approached me and said "No! You're holding the gun wrong." He showed me how to grip with the thumbs forward technique, even though I was tearing a tight rat-hole group from the center of the target - I was clearly the only experienced shooter there. I've tried to make that more natural, with many hundreds of dry draws, but I think I'm going back. I had two good reasons to use this grip: 1) I started with a .357, and I like both of my thumbs. 2) It always assured me of not accidentally activating controls or dragging on the slide when I started shooting a 1911 - like Bill showed ( 8:21 ), I wrap my left thumb over the top of the low right thumb. And now I can add the strength advantage, particularly when forced to use only one hand. I know at least with his revolvers, Jerry uses this grip as well. I get that it leaves a bit of a void under the heel of the heel of the left had, which we would rather be firmly against the left grip panel, which we better achieve with the thumbs forward. But after over 50 years using this grip, in target shooting, leagues and many years of IPSC and 3-gun matches, it's merits outweigh it's drawbacks for me. If they try to "fix" me again at my refresh course, I think I'll tell them to take it up with Massad, Bill and Jerry, 'cause it's good enough for them, and me.
Hondo , if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I started shooting revolvers back in the 60’s (yep, old guy) and I’ve always used low thumbs. Many instructors tried to “fix” my hold. After many, many rounds down range I’ve got my “low thumbs” hold down pretty pat. 👍🏻
Bob Kasper was criticized long ago in knife fighting circles for abandoning the saber grip in favor of the hammer grip. But, in close quarters sparring, it was harder for an opponent to knock the knife free. Also, for any kind of slide manipulations, you have to adjust your thumb placement to get a good grip on the slide if you are shooting hight thumbs. Certainly, there are theoretical advantages for keeping the thumbs high and pointing at the target with your support hand thumb. For up-close fighting, the fractions of a second saved between your "splits" will not be an issue, and especially with one hand there can be control issues.
I started shooting revolvers over 55 years ago (Colt Python), my grip was thumb down. My trainer was ex Army Special Forces, a damn fine marksman! All pistols we shot were with the thumb down, I never had the desire to change that (don't fix what's not broken). I am fairly sure that the reason I can shoot magnum handguns with minimal problems with recoil is because of that strong thumb position and good training habits that stuck with me for a lifetime (practice, practice, practice!!).
I started shooting revolvers first and the thumbs down grip feels totally natural. I learned thumbs forward for semi autos and have practiced a ton that way, but it still doesn't feel as good as getting both thumbs into the gripping action. I think next time I go to the range that I'll shoot my revolver and my semi auto the same way and see how it works out.
Being a relatively new to firearms I have been using the straight thumb meted with my striker fired pistol. Sometimes the slide would not lock back on an empty magazine because my thumb interfered with the slide lock. I have a new Wilson Combat full size ACP model 1911. Again, with straight thumbs I noticed during dry fire practice that sometimes after disengaging the thumb safety that the trigger would still be locked. I figured it was my issue, not the gun. Now I know why. My palm was not activating the grip safety. Not a good thing in an active defense scenario. The extra strength of the thumb down is now obvious. I also find it easier to establish a two handed grip with the strong hand thumb down since you don't have to move the strong hand thumb out of the way and then back into position. I am optimistic about getting good results moving over to this grip style
Awesome demo of the thumb positions. My thumb still hurts from trying them all. “Thumb down” is most certainly excellent for one-handed shooting as well as retention. I have a hard time using it with a two-handed grip, but I’m still working on that.
I cross my support hand thumb over the end of my other thumb, with the support hand fingers wrapped around below the trigger guard. This seems to lock both hands to the pistol.
I used to shoot thumbs down until the internet experts taught me that, thumbs down and "teacup" are the worst ways you can shoot a handgun. Now I shoot thumbs forward; my groups look like they were shot with a shotgun but I can spray the bullets so much quicker now.
Finally, some nuance on rule 1 and 2 If you want to practice disarms with a real handgun, triple safety check in a CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT The reasons for not pointing a gun in unsafe directions you checked and verified is unloaded is because, in uncontrolled situations, people don't know the gun is unloaded. This likely makes them see you as a threat, and they have the right to shoot you in self defense (as aiming a gun at them is a threat to their life) Its also a bad sign of complacency to dry fire unloaded guns at your friends and stuff The triple check signals there proceding actions are very taboo, and this is a carefully calculated exception to the rules
Nice explanation guys. I keep the cylinder gap foremost in my mind when shooting my .44 Super Blackhawk, especially after seeing a mythbusters video where they tested what it could do to you.. Brutal..
GENTLEMEN! Thanks for the great discussion on mechanics of grip. I have been taught a number of thumb positions, but I will be trying this out for sure on my next range day!
My Dad taught me to shoot starting with revolvers and we always shot low thumb. All these years later, I've tried high thumb, etc, but it never felt right. Now I know why; it wasn't!
Great discussion, being new to the 1911 and having problems with activating the safety under recoil, I’ve tried a thumb on safety grip, but find it uncomfortable. I’m going to try this advice and modify my grip back to what I first used when I used to shoot in competition before someone told me I should be using a both thumbs forward grip. Great info and I’m going to try it out next trip to the range with my 1911 as well as my Steyr. Also, I have had the problem with the thumb interfering with the trigger finger on my snubbie.38’s
I find that when I shoot with a thumbs down grip rather than a high thumb on top of safety lever, my shots more consistently hit Point of Aim. I thought i was an oddball because of this considering high thumb or flag thumb is very popular these days but if it works for Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson then by God that is good enough for me too.
i switched to the thumbs down locking position and gave me better control of pistol, imporved mu accuracy and now i have one grip for rovolver and semi auto that works extremely well... thanks for the video.
This is what we need. Our elders stepping up and explaining clearly why, sometimes, the old way and the old wisdom is still the best way.
Thanks guys! Great stuff.
The "thumbs down" hold is the only universal hold I can use effectively with all of my handguns no matter the design. Maybe it's because I grew up shooting big bore revolvers but I find this technique allows me to accurately shoot everything I own without having to relearn a gun-specific grip.
Same here.
@@tonynicholson2697 yes
Now I wanna go to the range to test this out. I shoot both semi-auto and wheel gun, so it’d be great to have one hold to not even think about than having to switch thumb positions like I playing thumb war with whatever gun I’m holding 👍
Same here 👍.
You've got that right Richard!
I opened the video out of pure curiosity and got completely glued to the screen. Very good, very very good.
I'm a veteran pinshooter with a modicum of insight into grip mechanics. I had hereto fore only the used the low thumb grip on revolvers.I went to the range today intent on trying that grip on my ShieldPlus. Gripping the gun in that manner for some dry fire warmup, the grip felt extremely odd and uncomfortable. I felt as if I barely had any purchase. Low expectations immediately followed. Still, I pressed on and fired 5 rounds on target at 7 yards. Lo and behold, I had shot a 1 1/2" group with 4 rounds in one 1/2" hole. Subsequent 5 round string produced similar results. So much for the "it doesn't feel right" objection. Thanks, guys.
Again. These Wilson videos are fantastic.
This was clearly helpful the first time I tried it. A truly great presentation. The piece was a glock 26, but I will try this with everything. Thank you.
Bill explains it so well: the Old School grip has worked so well for me since I learned to shoot a handgun and it's still working well today. No need to change my grip.
I grew up using a thumbs down grip, shooting mainly revolvers bac in the day. The instructors tried to change that shooting a Glock in basic firearms training, but eventually gave up and told me to keep shooting the way I was used to.
When I started shooting thumbs foward my slide was failing to lock back on the empty magazine. Also I started getting short stroke malfunctions. I went back to thumbs down and never had anymore issues.
There is an enormous amount of knowledge and experience in these two men, and selflessly sharing their knowledge with the rest of the 'pro gun' community! Thank you gentlemen for all you do! I can tell that firearm safety is your top priority. A lot of people will learn and benefit from you.
Thank you for the informative video. After 30 years of law enforcement, it is always interesting, and sometimes comical on how the "latest and greatest" new tactic and lesson is mandated into training. This is a prime example of how there are different methods in achieving the same goal and the emphasis needs to be kept on "what works for you and why". Thanks again and keep up the great lessons.
Thank you, fellows, for this GREAT advice. I’ll add one more common sense reason that is especially applicable to we long-term - and getting considerable older - shooters: a low thumb grip can help to compensate for increasing hand weakness and issues like arthritis.
As a young man I learned thumb down. Then in my 30s I switched to thumb strait as that was what most instructors I saw were teaching. Now I have switched back and have noticed less fatigue and less arthritis pain after time at the range. Almost gave up my big bores and switched to .380. But with switching back to thumb down hopefully can get another couple years carrying and shooting reliably stopping calibers.
Amen brother!
Very clear and 100% correct. Thank you.
I love Massad, he's not rude like Ken. He also didn't FLAG Bill 50 times in the video. He goes out of his way to NOT point a gun at anyone 👌 I watch every single Massad video, and ZERO Ken videos 🤷♂️
Excellent video! I'm retired now, but as a former state certified police firearms master Instructor, I have always taught the "thumbs down" method. We never taught the popular "thumbs forward" method because it causes so many shooter-induced malfunctions. People seem to forget (or not know) the most basic rule of shooting any semi-auto pistol -- "Keep all fingers off of and away from the external controls and the slide." The Army's very first training manual for the 1911 even spoke of this. But, I suppose it all comes down to personal preference.
I’ve been shooting handguns for more than 20 years and am always learning something new. Today is one of those days. We are blessed that these two gentleman are sharing this knowledge with the shooting community. Thanks for the video 👍😎
Always wondered why Bill Wilson used a low thumb grip. All makes sense. Really helpful for less strong shooters that need to use their limited grip strength effectively.
I started using thumb down to tighten up my groups. What a big difference it made in accuracy!
Always very clear and professional.
Low thumb works for me as well. I’m teaching my young son this grip technique. I share this video with him.
I always used the low thumb grip because I came from the revolver. When I bought my first semi-auto back in 2008 and took my first defensive handgun class, I was immediately catechize for my grip. The trainers had me change to the straight thumb grip. This is what I use today, unless I'm shooting a revolver. But I do like the low thumb grip, as pointed out by Mas, for it's grip strength.
great video .thats the way i grip a pistol and it totally works for me.ive been shooting for over 40 years that way,thank you guys
Wow; Mr Ayoob, I have been reading your information since I was a teenager, as a police officer in Miami, and now , as a 62 year old retired LEO; you never cease to amaze me with super important techniques and information? I thank you from
The bottom of my heart; aside from
Sheer luck, I know your teaching has kept me alive? Thank you ; Donn
Always willing to hear some words of wisdom from Massad!
Low thumb 1911 makes it easier to quickly engage the manual safety when needed.
One of the few times I’ve seen Ayoob admit there is more than one way to do something. Usually he is more rigid and thinks there is only one way to do something which is rarely true. I really enjoyed and respected his explanation
Wow! I literally had no idea the gain in grip strength using this method. Learned something new today. Life is good.
*Best defensive hold.*
*Thanks for the reminder.*
*Practice makes perfect.*
Not really…
But okay
@@PewPewNomNom
*Maybe you can make a video, showing us a better "Defensive Pistol Hold. (?)*
*Or link to one already demonstrating it.*
My experience and reasons are the same as Bill’s and it’s always worked well for me whether revolver or semiauto. Great, well reasoned inputs from Mas as well.
Excellent video, thank you.
Always love listening to Massad Ayoob
Thank you gentlemen for a practical reality based look at gripping a pistol.
I just came from the range after watching this. Sig Pistol couldn't do the thumb down without the mag release being at risk of being ejected. However, the Glocks were a far different story. Absolute game changer for me. Thanks MA! This channel is fantastic. The reahave you all help wl world without all of the obnoxious behavior by the gun bros. I will have you guys help me with my 2011. Appreciate you!
Great stuff. As an old revolver guy I use and teach low thumbs as an ootion as well. I have had to modify students grip to the low thumb (revolver grip) with the M&P EZ Since the grip safety pins at the bottom its less forgiving if one doesn't have a full grip. Low thumbs guarentees that.
Especially with the seniors that have weakened grip strength.
Heard mention of this grip style before and now i fully understand its origin
Excellent information!
10:45 and on is must know. I just bought a Chiappa snub nose!!
We're so lucky to have video of these men. Legends
Great points. I found that after carrying a 1911 in law enforcement for over 4 decades, once people started talking about using the high thumb to help control recoil and make sure a thumb didn't accidentally knock the grip safety off, I couldn't adequately dis-engage the grip safety, as Mas points out. I was told to get the grip safety sensitized. However, sticking with my old low thumb grip, if your squeezing the grip, the thumb doesn't accidentally engage the thumb safety. Watching an Army training film on the 1911, the low thumb grips is taught. I guess things come full circle.
Started with thumb down swinging a hammer when i was a kid (lol grandfather had a bench we would drive nails into to keep us busy) just carried that over to my revolver shooting and then semi auto's. Bow's three finger grip thumb down, hammers, ratchets,driving, and even throwing punches. And now after 40+ years of use...i also use it with my canes.
Bingo! Same for me.
I could never get my head around this "stick your thumbs straight forward and stack them almost on the slide release" style of shooting, so I feel vindicated in seeing cracks appearing in its foundation at long last.
Same here.If it ain’t broke don’t fix it :)
Tell me you don’t shoot without telling me you don’t shoot
If you use both hands with thumbs down, the thumb of the shooting hand is in the way of the support hand, resulting in less contact surface that would be available. Thumb down one handed makes a lot of sense while some might prefer to ride the thumb safety depending on the handgun. If the slidestop gets in the way highly depends on the specific gun and your hands.
@@onpsxmember im new to shooting pistols and my thumbs down grip makes me infinitely more accurate then using thumbs forward. everyone is telling me im doing it wrong but how come i can hit my target almost everytime.
@@vexxy0ps689
You have a sample size of one, anecdotal evidence. It's not wrong. It can work well with your hands and handgun or definitely with revolvers. it's not that you could get the same or better results with the thumbs forward grip, it may be that you haven't invested the same time into it. Search for "deep dive into the thumbs forward grip". Anything you give a chance to see if it helps you has to be tried and slightly adjusted maybe over several months. It's similar to those that are used to iron sights and they're damn good with them. They're reluctant to try red dot sights cause at first they suck and over there is what they know and are good at. It may take 6 months to a year to reap the benefits. Some realize the positive effects their long red dot session had on their iron sights shooting, maybe even breaking a plateau and then jump in with both feet. Try the video "deep dive into the thumbs forward grip". Btw...it could be that if you get a different gun in the future, it may lend itself more to it based on size. I mean if you shoot a micro 9 and your thumb would stick in front of the muzzle it's less than helpful.
All great points. I've seen this taught before, especially for single hand grip. But this is also taught in most striking techniques. You get a rock hard fist when you bring the thumb down, and you strike out like cracking a whip, and then squeeze your fist into that grip as the strike is landing both to protect the hand and to apply a solid strike.
Never have been a big hand gun user.
Started at 5 when my Grandpa gave me my first rifle, a '67 Springfield Bolt Action Single shot. 22.
My daddy taught me more than I can say.
But being 59 almost 60 last 35+ years been shooting my mom's old semi-auto .22.
My thumb is used to being curled down around the stock.
I shot a cap & ball Black Powder a lot as a late teenager never been trained on handgun. Did real well with it.
Only shot my sons .45 once back in 2012.
Don't know if I used my thumb down, but I believe I probably did.
Thanks a lot for the advice, when I do start using a handgun again, hope to in the near future I will definitely check how I'm doing it.
2nd time I've watched you gentleman plan to a lot more. Thanks greatly from a old homegrown Texan!
I love the "dinosaur show" Thanks for the lessons fellas!
An instructor taught me this back in the late 90s. I’ve tried other grips, but this one is the best for me and I can use it on any pistol.
Just watched for the 1st time...that I remember. Great discussion and comments!! Massad always has good information, comments, and well thought out reasons for proper firearms handling/shooting. Thank you!!!
Thank you for this discussion. I've always found the thumb forward grip a little awkward, but that was what all the cool kids were doing. I'm going to have to reconsider my grip the next time I hit the range. Thanks again!
These two men always manage to make me think and many times rethink things. Good stuff gentlemen.
Man! There is so much knowledge and experience in these 2 heads it's astounding. Literally everything said makes perfect sense and I wouldn't comment until testing for myself. it works. Now that I've been working on the "2 thumbs straight" grip for a number of years (I finally got it down!) I'm about to practice with a brand new grip from now on. Now, it I can just get to the range. Thanks guys very much.
As a young pup I would read every article that had your name Mas. Now as a seasoned 53 year old I’m still learning from you. Bill you are just as great and make a fine product. God bless you both.
Thank you. I'm tired of people telling me my grip is wrong on a semi auto. The thumbs down grip works. And you can switch between platforms without changing your grip fundamentals.
Informative, timely video by the incomparable Massad Ayoob (and Bill Wilson of course.)
As a petite female shooter with very small hands I've had difficulty with my strong hand's thumb joint hurting trying to manage recoil when shooting pistols with a wider grip. Arthritis affects my finger strength as well.
I was taught the thumbs straight, pointing towards the target grip. Can't wait to try this at the range.
Awesome, thank you gentlemen! Simple, straight forward, practical knowledge, that might actually save your life!
11:50, exactly. I been using thumb down for a long time and it's difficult to explain to people that I can wrap my support thumb down also on my 686, but a little snubby, then my thumb goes a tad higher and support thumb rests on top, unless i'm shooting fast in which case with the snub my support thumb becomes thumbs high.
Seeing one of the few youtubers I watch comment makes this even better
Love your wheel gun work
It's good to see that there are still some who understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that there really is no one size fits all. I can't count the number of times when well meaning folks have told me that my grip is wrong, and tried to fix it. Just like Bill I was shooting revolvers (still carry one often too) long before I even touched a semi-auto handgun. I hit what I shoot at with my low thumb grip, and the new all the rage thumbs forward grip is uncomfortable for me, due to an old wrist injury.
I'm a low thumb guy and always have been. Trying the other methods in the past just didn't feel comfortable and I felt as if I had much less grip on the gun. I now shoot Wild Bunch traditional and it is paying off using that low thumb.
Low thumb all my life.
Easy to teach, easy (and safe) to learn, and
easy to remember: Thumb print (weak hand) over thumb nail (strong hand)!
Bringing the thumb over the fingers in this way is also how to make a very strong fist in most martial arts. 👍🏻
every couple years someone comes up with the latest and greatest stance or hold. I never found the need to change
I run a Springfield army XDS 45 ACP thumb down technique works for me and now I know why. Thanks for the information and God bless Y'all 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I, too, learned with revolvers and, even shooting M29 Smiths, shot one handed. The thumb down grip is natural for me. In my practices, I did find issues with secure one hand holds with the thumb anywhere but down - especially with bulky lightweight polymer guns.
Long story short - enjoyed your video!
I have switched back to the low thumb from using the safety as a thumb rest. All I can say is that it tightened up my groups with no loss of speed.
I have always used the 'thumb down' grip. For over 40 years it's never been a problem for me.
Thank you for informing people about the thumbs down hold ! I have been a certified instructor for over 20 years . Revolvers require a stronger grip ( thumbs down ! ) . Thumbs down gives you a stronger grip on semi autos as well . But , also you need to keep your hands away from moving parts like the slide . Keep up the good work !
Great explanation. I've never thought it through that deep. Gonna try it next range visit.
Thanks guys, I've not seen it demonstrated like this before. Super job.
I started shooting a revolver first/low thumb and when I started shooting autos I kept the same grip for years.Later when I started USPSA and IDPA shooting I switched to thumbs forward and still do. I don’t know anyone who shoots revolver thumbs forward as it’s not a natural way to grip one.
It’s always good,to examine your techniques and habits. 👍
Thank goodness my old fogie incorrect grip is finally validated. Thank you!
All of my handgun training in USMC was thumb down. Just felt natural to me.
Thank you for explaining in detail about the position of the thumb and how much of a difference it makes . I started on a wheel gun that later use a semiautomatic. You make easily to understand like you do on your other videos . Thank you
Been a revolver shooter my whole life. Always struggled with semi autos and all the thumb positions because I could never replicate my speed and accuracy with the wheel gun. Went out and said to heck with it, I am going to use what works and low and behold could shoot lights out X ring evaporating groups.
Solved my problem of how to grip the pistol. I thought my right thumb was crowding the safety. Now there's plenty of clearance with the thumb down grip. Thanks for the tip!
I'm really glad to see commentary about single-hand shooting. Due to needing a cane, I can only shoot one-handed, and it's my weak hand at that. I run a full-sized 9mm, and while watching this video I checked out my default grip, and was pleased to see it was a low thumb grip, although I think I could get it lower.
Honestly, I'd not really thought too much about that before, so thank you for bringing that to my attention, and also showing how it matters across different weapons.
I'll make sure to use that awareness when I practice, so that I can train my thumb properly.
Thank you gentlemen for your very informative instructions. A lot of people can learn good weapon handling skills listening to you. I always listen carefully to your messages & enjoy your straight forward demonstrations.
Thank you both. Both my husband and I shoot low thumb. Most solid hold for us especially given that we both have small hands for our genders.
You have timeless information that can save lives and mistakes. You will make us all better with all the great knowledge you have.
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. A wealth of information, well spoken and excellent points. Much appreciated.
This is a great discussion, thanks very much. I grew up on revolvers and so I use a revolver grip on semis.
Love you guys sharing your experience....
When I took my CPL training (finally), on the range the instructor approached me and said "No! You're holding the gun wrong." He showed me how to grip with the thumbs forward technique, even though I was tearing a tight rat-hole group from the center of the target - I was clearly the only experienced shooter there. I've tried to make that more natural, with many hundreds of dry draws, but I think I'm going back.
I had two good reasons to use this grip: 1) I started with a .357, and I like both of my thumbs. 2) It always assured me of not accidentally activating controls or dragging on the slide when I started shooting a 1911 - like Bill showed ( 8:21 ), I wrap my left thumb over the top of the low right thumb. And now I can add the strength advantage, particularly when forced to use only one hand. I know at least with his revolvers, Jerry uses this grip as well.
I get that it leaves a bit of a void under the heel of the heel of the left had, which we would rather be firmly against the left grip panel, which we better achieve with the thumbs forward. But after over 50 years using this grip, in target shooting, leagues and many years of IPSC and 3-gun matches, it's merits outweigh it's drawbacks for me. If they try to "fix" me again at my refresh course, I think I'll tell them to take it up with Massad, Bill and Jerry, 'cause it's good enough for them, and me.
Hondo , if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I started shooting revolvers back in the 60’s (yep, old guy) and I’ve always used low thumbs. Many instructors tried to “fix” my hold. After many, many rounds down range I’ve got my “low thumbs” hold down pretty pat. 👍🏻
I love this channel I've always struggled getting a comfortable grip and I like tge low thumb grip
Bob Kasper was criticized long ago in knife fighting circles for abandoning the saber grip in favor of the hammer grip. But, in close quarters sparring, it was harder for an opponent to knock the knife free. Also, for any kind of slide manipulations, you have to adjust your thumb placement to get a good grip on the slide if you are shooting hight thumbs.
Certainly, there are theoretical advantages for keeping the thumbs high and pointing at the target with your support hand thumb. For up-close fighting, the fractions of a second saved between your "splits" will not be an issue, and especially with one hand there can be control issues.
I started shooting revolvers over 55 years ago (Colt Python), my grip was thumb down. My trainer was ex Army Special Forces, a damn fine marksman! All pistols we shot were with the thumb down, I never had the desire to change that (don't fix what's not broken). I am fairly sure that the reason I can shoot magnum handguns with minimal problems with recoil is because of that strong thumb position and good training habits that stuck with me for a lifetime (practice, practice, practice!!).
I started shooting revolvers first and the thumbs down grip feels totally natural. I learned thumbs forward for semi autos and have practiced a ton that way, but it still doesn't feel as good as getting both thumbs into the gripping action. I think next time I go to the range that I'll shoot my revolver and my semi auto the same way and see how it works out.
Low thumb grip here but it's because of a hand injury long ago and the only way that I can comfortably/effectively grip a handgun.
It works for me.
These are great videos and I really enjoy listening to, learning from and watching them.
Interesting thoughts from Mas as always! I saw him smile when Bill reminded him of dino ribs at the drive-in, too.
The knowledge on this channel is amazing
A most amazing show,I was taught at a very early age to use the low thumb grip, have been doing so for 50+ years
Thank goodness someone with common sense finally broke the mold!
Being a relatively new to firearms I have been using the straight thumb meted with my striker fired pistol. Sometimes the slide would not lock back on an empty magazine because my thumb interfered with the slide lock. I have a new Wilson Combat full size ACP model 1911. Again, with straight thumbs I noticed during dry fire practice that sometimes after disengaging the thumb safety that the trigger would still be locked. I figured it was my issue, not the gun. Now I know why. My palm was not activating the grip safety. Not a good thing in an active defense scenario. The extra strength of the thumb down is now obvious. I also find it easier to establish a two handed grip with the strong hand thumb down since you don't have to move the strong hand thumb out of the way and then back into position. I am optimistic about getting good results moving over to this grip style
Awesome demo of the thumb positions. My thumb still hurts from trying them all. “Thumb down” is most certainly excellent for one-handed shooting as well as retention. I have a hard time using it with a two-handed grip, but I’m still working on that.
I cross my support hand thumb over the end of my other thumb, with the support hand fingers wrapped around below the trigger guard. This seems to lock both hands to the pistol.
Sage advice, please continue to impart your knowledge to our community.
I used to shoot thumbs down until the internet experts taught me that, thumbs down and "teacup" are the worst ways you can shoot a handgun. Now I shoot thumbs forward; my groups look like they were shot with a shotgun but I can spray the bullets so much quicker now.
Finally, some nuance on rule 1 and 2
If you want to practice disarms with a real handgun, triple safety check in a CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT
The reasons for not pointing a gun in unsafe directions you checked and verified is unloaded is because, in uncontrolled situations, people don't know the gun is unloaded.
This likely makes them see you as a threat, and they have the right to shoot you in self defense (as aiming a gun at them is a threat to their life)
Its also a bad sign of complacency to dry fire unloaded guns at your friends and stuff
The triple check signals there proceding actions are very taboo, and this is a carefully calculated exception to the rules
Ol’ school guys! Nothing beats that period.
My respects to you guys and to the third musketeer…KH!💪🏻🇵🇷
Air Assault, guys!
A lot of wisdom at that table
Nice explanation guys. I keep the cylinder gap foremost in my mind when shooting my .44 Super Blackhawk, especially after seeing a mythbusters video where they tested what it could do to you.. Brutal..
Simple but very practical advice
This is vital. Love you both. Please do more of these to show firearm owners.
GENTLEMEN! Thanks for the great discussion on mechanics of grip. I have been taught a number of thumb positions, but I will be trying this out for sure on my next range day!
My Dad taught me to shoot starting with revolvers and we always shot low thumb. All these years later, I've tried high thumb, etc, but it never felt right. Now I know why; it wasn't!
Great discussion, being new to the 1911 and having problems with activating the safety under recoil, I’ve tried a thumb on safety grip, but find it uncomfortable. I’m going to try this advice and modify my grip back to what I first used when I used to shoot in competition before someone told me I should be using a both thumbs forward grip. Great info and I’m going to try it out next trip to the range with my 1911 as well as my Steyr.
Also, I have had the problem with the thumb interfering with the trigger finger on my snubbie.38’s
I find that when I shoot with a thumbs down grip rather than a high thumb on top of safety lever, my shots more consistently hit Point of Aim.
I thought i was an oddball because of this considering high thumb or flag thumb is very popular these days but if it works for Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson then by God that is good enough for me too.