Proper Thumb Positions with Massad Ayoob - Master Class Ep. 17
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มิ.ย. 2020
- Flagged thumb? Straight thumb? From revolvers to various semi-autos, Massad Ayoob discusses the strengths and weaknesses of different theories on thumb position depending on platform and application.
Website: www.wilsoncombat.com/
Get our newsletter: eepurl.com/dAZw8b
Facebook: / wilsoncombat
Instagram: / wilsoncombat - กีฬา
No yelling, No hyperbole, no "showmanship." Just information presented in a meticulous and understandable way. How refreshing is that?
That's Massad Ayoob! Great teacher
He’s got nothing else to prove. World renowned professional
PROFESSIONAL!!!
And from an a hole who says we have NO RIGHT to carry
... and no government mask signifying his submission to his would-be government masters.
The legend himself...
I know this dude is talented and busy, but he should seriously consider a career in narrating books.
He does have that golden voice.
Poop Scoop Productions He does have a condescending tone.
The Gun Community's Morgan Freeman.
@@firemarshal17 No, he doesn't (sound condescending). 🙄
Story Time, with Massad Ayoob
Massad Ayoob is like E.F. Hutton.. when he talks people listen.
Indeed.
Why though?
He’s never been in a gunfight, never served in the military, probably never walked through a bad neighborhood in his life.
He’s also a proven liar in court (Hansen v. Webster) and really does not live a single part of all the things he yammers on about.
Ayoob is a fraud, an expert at convincing people he’s an expert.
That’s it.
@@rifleshooterchannel208 Holy smokes, I thought I was the only one who noticed this.
I wouldn't take any advice from him on selecting hairpieces though.
@@rifleshooterchannel208
"He served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and retired in 2017 with the rank of Captain from the Grantham, New Hampshire, police department." Probably just a desk job, right?
The fakes are lately the ultra tactical which we've seen here on YT before + stolen valor cases. And if you look at those who have long wound military background and are constantly out training & hunting like Paul Harrell see him as a credible source. I can't say if he was in gun fight in his police career but wouldn't it speak of his police work that he got through it without shooting a bunch of people? Is there a certain article or court document you'd recommend on the Hansen vs. Webster case?
I've been teaching the "thumb down" position for more than 30 years now for the fighting pistol, as opposed to competition environments, ever since I learned its advantages from Ayoob in the old LFI days. It works fine for real fighting, across a wide variety of gun platforms, enhances weapon retention, and works well when one-handed shooting is called for. While it is true that "thumbs forward" probably does allow one to control recoil in speed shooting slightly better, I've found that if I have to teach non-dedicated personnel one universal gripping technique for actual self-defense, thumb down is the way to go. I do know that some very accomplished shooters have good luck with other techniques, but having been in an actual struggle for my service weapon, I like the retention power of thumb down. I also like that in this day and age of subcompact autopistols, thumb down is much less likely to foul the operation of a tiny 9mm pistol in recoil.
Younger shooters and instructors have referred to me as an old fashioned idiot for not adopting the nearly universal thumbs forward technique so popular on TH-cam. Perhaps now that a recognized authority such as Ayoob has made a video that takes an in-depth look at the various thumb positions, those people may understand better that no technique is perfect, and what you adopt has a lot to do with what you expect to be doing. Well done, Mas.
They will still make fun of you.
I can so though, thumbs down is nearly 100% compliant for modern pistols. The only reason I won't say IS 100% for modern pistols is that there is a lot I haven't shot. Even more important for left hand hand shooting on smaller pistols. 365 tore up my left thumb knuckle when shooting left handed. Thumbs down completely prevented this.
Thumbs down works for modern semis and, as far as I know, all revolvers. Might have to change how people grip the gun with strong hand though. Generally only using the middle and ring fingers on strong hand for grip. Pinky is just there.
You Sir , are certainly not an old fashioned idiot ... you are a genius . You have found what works for you 👍🏻
I'm going back to thumb down, thumb forward on my Glocks just interferes with the slide release and just gives me something else to think about.
BOOOMER
O
O
M
E
R
Thumbs down is how we were taught to shoot (1980's U.S. Army M.P. school). Still hold this way today.
Glad to see your still around !! I enjoyed your articles since the mid 70's !! Stay Strong & Be Safe, Massad !!!
I remember reading his editorials in Guns & Ammo or Handgunner or whatever mag it was that I'd read as a kid (at least until the clerk chased me away from the newsstand!). Tom Knapp was still alive & shooting, Norinco 1911s & SKS ads graced the inside covers of the gun rags, and you were hard-pressed to find CommBloc SMG & rifle parts kits priced over $100... Those were the days!
Massad always makes sense in his explanations. Great info.
I almost skipped this video when I saw it was about proper positions but then realized it was from Ayoob and had to watch it. He always offers a solid education and this time is no different. Thanks for tips on Baretta 92.
You know someone is a badass when their last name spelled backwards is "Booya"! Great video Mr.Ayoob as always!
Long before there was an internet, I read Massad's books, and used the thumbs curled down method. As decades passed and the fads changed, Internet commandos berated my technique. I tried the thumbs forward but never liked it, and stuck to my tried and true method. Glad to see Massad's original advice returning.
Internet commandos, 🤣🤣🤣😂
If I use the straight thumb method with my P365 TacOps, I can’t hit the side of a barn from inside. I’ve used thumbs down for almost 50 years, it still works best for me.
Solid info
I've been an Instructor, both NRA and military (Navy and Air Force), for about 40 years. I teach all four thumb positions, but the one that I have always used is the thumbs down position for the simple reason this it is the strongest. For me, it is also the most natural one. However, this is the first time that I have ever heard anyone say that. I have heard lots of supposedly professional instructors who all teach the thumbs forward position and nothing else. I've always taught students to use whatever thumb position works best for them.
As a relatively new pistol shooter I am sopping up you methods like a dry sponge! Thank you and keep the videos coming!!
Had the opportunity to attend Massad's LFI course many years ago. I remember to this day Massad shooting the final qualifier course of fire using a different students pistol for each string and leaving a single ragged hole in the center of the target. Impressive to say the least. I shot 1911's in IDPA and became a "straight thumb" guy. Then life intervened and I got out of shooting regularly for several years. My primary focus these days is self defense rather than competitive shooting, and I've been shooting 9mm from a Khar K9, a Glock and a Sig P365 all of which my straight thumb technique can cause to fail to lock on last round. I actually thought there was something wrong with the pistols, but shooting single hand the pistols worked fine every time, so it was clearly my technique.
This video gives the answer I need and I'll be working on becoming a "thumb down" shooter for my current requirements.
12:33 Yes sir! That's it! Not a religion. We constantly tell people we train that non of what we say (beyond safety) is dogma. I'm so happy to hear you say it to underscore the point.
Mass you are the man! I have enjoyed your writing for more years than I want to admit. Thanks for your leadership!
That is one of the best instructional videos I've ever seen. Simply outstanding.
I just realized I’ve grown up with his instruction for nearly thirty-years. Every lesson is new. Bravo!
I read his book Stressfire over thirty years ago. He is a very impressive instructor, both in written and spoken word.
Add a string and a rythm section and it'll sound like Barry White is giving instructions on where to put one's thumb in various positions...
Good imagery.
BlueTV I think he was writing back when Barry White was just coming up.
Watch out for flying undergarments
Whatever, whatever
Mas you're a regular Destin Sandlin.
I tried the thumb over thumbnail at the range today with both a Shield 9 and S&W 640. It was a solid fix for my ever vacillating revolver grip and equally effective with the semi auto. Thanks Mas.
Being a law enforcement firearms instructor back in the 70's, I and my fellow law enforce. instructors taught the "thumbs down" method for the very reasons you explained. Thanks Masdad, for bringing back a common-sense shooting fundamental.
I’ve always used the thumb down technique.
Thank you for all the great videos packed full of useful information without a 2 minute intro with blaring music and a montage of you shooting a bunch of different weapons. This is also a master class on how to make an instructional video.
Massad, still the man and relevant after all these years!
Well done, thank YOU for your time! I now have the Wilson Combat EDC X9"S" (After having the X9 'Full-size')
I have learned, having the thumb in the downward position provides me with the utmost full-control of the X9S Subcompact Handgun.
Massad "the icon" Ayoob , when he speaks I listen
I have been a follower of Mass Ayoob for more than 3 decades. He is not only a great writer but is also very articulate in his video presentation. Thank you for sharing all the good work Mass!!
The thumb down when shooting one handed seems to have helped me at least using the dry fire AP MantisX. Thanks!
I am so glad to see ya back Sensi. I am still learning from you and I started in 1981-82. Keep up the great teaching!
I always enjoyed listening to Massad Ayoob, he has that assertive voice along with his firearm knowledge which makes him well respected in the firearm Community. He presented a lot of good points in this video and that’s another reason why he is one of the very best instructors out there..
I really enjoyed this video. Thank you for making it available to us.
I have been thinking about this so often as I practice different grips on my carry pistol. He essentially covered every thought I had and explained to me why what I was thinking was right. This is great!!!
After all these years, he's still one of the best trainers on the planet! 😎😎😎
When I got my first sidearm in 1987, I read as many of Massad's articles as I could. I learned about the importance of a thumb safety...
And of using the curled-thumb grip. With my support thumb crushing my dominant one lower on the grips, my gun WON'T come out of my hands, and I don't have to use my trigger finger to help that...
Which is the reason why most struggles for a firearm result in a shot fired, the person from whom the firearm is being wrested using their trigger finger to aid their hold on their gun.
Thank you for reinforcing my basic understanding, while also explaining where "flag thumb" may be a useful technique to learn - hadn't thought of what firing from low retention might cause with my usual technique. Damn it!!!
You've got me thinking.
This was some of the best advice on grip I've heard yet.
When you listen to th is man, you pay attention because you know he is among the very best.
Very good advice!! Sometimes we need it broke down so simple so we can make decisions on how we train. Thanks again and I LOVE my Wilson Combat firearms!! Whooo raaaaa
I see Mas in the thumbnail, I click on the video.
Massad Ayoob, thank you for continuing to share your knowledge and experience.
I studied Mr. Ayoob exclusively in the early 80's to develop the skills I needed for teaching and competing. His method is flawless.
Mr. Ayoob I've come across many of your videos (or those posted of you). You Sir are a true scholar of the firearm and the laws associated. Many I have shared with family (including my closest friends). Thank you for Everything you've done, years of service and Volumes of information.
Massad Ayoob, from American Handgunner. I really miss that magazine. Great video btw
I just learned that my grip has been all wrong for years.. thank you ..
Highest regards to this gentleman, who obviously has a great understanding and experience; fantastic information answered many concerns and thoughts with several different scenarios especially the self-defense close quarter combat. Particularly getting a first effective "round" off. His mindset is 100% focused!
Damn, Massad is like the Bruce Lee of firearms. He is the real deal master!!!
I've heard Massad goes through 3 or 4 microphones a day because his voice turns them into bars of gold
Some of the best handgun advice I've seen in my 60 years of shooting one.
Thank you for sharing this with us. Found it interesting and very helpful .
Been reading your articles in gun magazines since I was a kid. A wealth of knowledge was gained.
You are 100% correct, in my book!
People come up with a bunch of new things and some have merit.
I shoot from a modified isosceles stance with my chest on angle to the threat. I shoot very well this way because that is how I handled a sidearm for about 40 years. This was taught to minimize the exposure of your full chest 90* to the threat.
Now officers are taught an isosceles stance with their chest square to the threat.
The difference is 40 years ago, most officers didn't have body armor and were minimizing themselves as a target.
Now, that is bad because you expose part of your body Not covered by a ballistic vest.
Things change and some are good but overall the best weapon handling is tried and true.
From one old fart to another, Take Care buddy, John
Regardless of your hold, the Video gets a Thumbs Up.
Mr. Ayoob, I have read everything you've written since I was a kid in the 80s. I've only now discovered you on youtube. Thank you so much for all the wisdom and knowledge. You're both a master of the craft and a great teacher.
Excellent info! Thank you as always. I am one of the few, [because I am older and learned to shoot with revolvers,] that uses the same "wedge" grip on ALL of my handguns. The thumbs forward grip is obviously the "new" way, but only works on semi autos and much of the time engages the slide lock, preventing the slide from staying open on last round. Countless videos of competent shooters having this very issue, saying "that's just me riding the slide stop"...I always think, "then don't"...In all of my defensive handgun classes, I am one of the few that holds their handgun this way, but I always easily shoot as well as the guys holding it the "correct way"
I tried really hard the straight thumb method. As a new gun owner, it is a struggle. My hands are so under pressure and twisted, that I hit right low more often than center ( I'm a lefty).
Thumbs down worked right out of the box for me. Now I hit right low when I slap the trigger and I know when I do it as I record my shots with my mobile phone laying on the bench with my hands above it, so I see when the mussel dips . Ratio changed to 80/20 center or point of aim vs low right. Works for me. Thank you, sir, Mr Massad Ayoob. Let's see what else I can learn from you😀
Same
Just finished MAG-40. Great class! Highly recommend for anyone who owns a firearm. This video answers one of the questions that I had coming out of the class. Thx Mas.
You are a great teacher. Your content is always logically arranged and easy to follow. Your voice is a gift from God. Keep up the great work.
Thank You ! excellent presentation. You've helped me very much!
I'm glad that I found this channel. What a great teacher. Thank you for your time.
The single best video I have seen breaking down the positives and negatives of various handgun grips. Thanks, WC.
My CCL instructor introduced me to Mr. Ayoob. This dude is real deal old school. Definitely a fan.
I learn something every five seconds from Massad. The man is an encyclopedia.
The whole wilson combat staff is 100% professional, and a wealth of information. OUTSTANDING presentation!
I appreciate you taking the time to share your skills, knowledge & behaviors. I have learned much from you & you have made me think.
I've been following Mas since the 80's. Mas' style is clear and to the point as always. Thanks Mas!
Mas is one of the best instructors around. He knows his stuff, can tell you what works and why. If you ever get a chance to attend one of his classes go! You'll not regret it.
Great insight into grip. I also like the single hand thumb down grip but with two hands I've always shot locking the weak hand thumb over the strong hand thumb. It allows the weak hand to grip stronger and the shooting hand to somewhat relax and concentrate on trigger pull. This style I use with revolver shooting. Thanks for coming out to the public via TH-cam, I think I've read nearly all your American Handgunner articles. My favorite was the incident in Michigan about Lions & Tigers. I always favored the .308 over the .223 and the dominance showed in that encounter. Thanks again for all those articles which were true police experiences. It shows how brave our men in blue really are.
Thank you sir the small details really are important.
Thanks for the video. A great example of changing biomechanics and how they affect your grip.
As someone else said, Mas speaks, I listen.
A true master, so glad I caught this , no thanks to the ugh tube notification system! Stay safe and God bless 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
That voice! Voice overs, narrations. There's a gold mine in that voice.
Massod. The most intelligent and well informed analysis of pistol holds ever . Well done . From an Australian fan
Seriously good info I hadn’t thought much about ffs! After one video of paying close attention to the explanations I have a very much improved idea of what I should be doing and when. My brain works in a weird way where I usually find the best technique for the situation almost intuitively, but this video will help out greatly as a guide of why I should be doing different grips at different times and situations. Awesome. It’s like getting years of experience in minutes
He’s one of the best in defense and firearms training!
Thumbs up for the thumbs down position. I've never used any other method throughout my life. And due to the advice in this video, I'm thankful for my dad - who that taught me to hold with the thumb down when I was just a boy.
Absolute legend in this field ! Be well, Sir.
Crystal clear, concise, no extra jawing, and last but not least, no BS. Great instruction.
What a class act, straight forward instructions with reasoned explanation.
Excellent video!
Let me add that if you've had thumb injuries (like, oh, say, multiple thumb dislocations either at the web of the hand or back near the wrist from decades of martial arts practice) the low thumb position is about the only way you're going to be able to hang onto anything in a struggle. It also keeps those of us with meaty hands from getting our hands chewed up by hammers and slides. And finally, when shooting the ever popular micro-mini guns in service calibers (or the really tiny, ultra light .380s) tucking the thumb is the only way to create enough support on the backstrap to ensure reliability. There is certainly a place for all the grips but the shooter has to know all of the options and figure out what works best for them. Therefore, information like this is extremely valuable!
Ah long time my old friend Mass, i havent talked to him in yrs. Mass is one talented person when it comes to shooting, taught me how to shoot prone.
Thanks...I've learned more from your videos than all the other gun channels combined...
I predominately carry and shoot 1911 pistols. I settled on the thumbs down approach long ago for that platform even though I use straight thumbs for my striker fired XDs pistol. With today's larger manual safeties it still works "thumbs down" very efficiently with full or commander sized autos like the 1911 - especially with smaller hands and larger grip frames. Great video.
A serious man , talking about a serious subject , with some serious information.
Great video , Thanks
I always learn something new when I watch you. Thank you.
Excellent video Massad, I’ve been reading your books and articles for 40 years. I have always shot with the thumb (s) down. It works with my smallish hands. Now with arthritis coming into play I find myself leaning towards lighter and lighter recoiling weapons. Can’t reverse the clock, damn!
Thanks Mas. You're my guru.
Thanks Massad again for your time and knowledge and thanks to Wilson Combat..
Mossab. I have studied your past books and refer to them today. They convinced me to go with 45acp over 9mm. Super books and super video. Thx!!!
A fantastic tutorial by the best in the business. A+!
I have followed his wisdom for around forty years and he has nevee disappointed...ever, with is training wisdom
Excellent tutorial! This man know his stuff!!! Thumb down is what I was taught when at the police academy back in 1990 with a .38 revolver and then a modified form of that in 1995 when we went to Glock 19s. I prefer straight thumbs now though, although I use a full grip with one hand shooting like Massad stated. Grip is also slightly modified when shooting my 1911, where I ride the safety with straight thumbs. My other semis, by strong hand thumb rides my weak hands thumb knuckle.
Really really well done explanations and video. No only one right way nonsense, just simple pluses and minuses with an eye to defense and consistency.
I have been through several training classes. I watch quite a few gun videos. I have heard the "how to" information before. This is the first time I have heard "why". I particularly appreciate the discussion of thumb position and gun retention.
ANY instruction from Massad Ayoob should be considered a "Master Class," even if he was instructing how to wipe snot from a runny nose - this man's word is gospel when it comes to firearms, and I listen intently to every word spoken by him. No yelling, no bearded loudmouths berating your choice of caliber or pistol - just clear demonstration of the facts of the matter at hand. Lord, if we could just get more people like him instructing our children in every discipline in our schools, we'd be graduating a bunch of actual geniuses every year. We need more videos like this, Bill Wilson! :) Thanks for this one, and keep them coming!
Great information. Massed is trustworthy and experienced.
Spent all winter trying to incorporate the "thumbs up". Having not shot in a number of years, finally building my own range & back to shooting, I found myself missing the broad side of a barn( Least in terms of 8" plates ). when I DID hit, shots were all low left. Groups suck. This all with my brand new Gen 2 MP9. "I used to be a superb shooter" I thought to myself. So I go & get my Gen 1 MP9. Same thing. "How can I suck this bad?" Last time I spent a better part of 20-years having not shot and when I came back it was like riding a bike.
It's not the gun. It's me. I watch this video & realize just because someone comes up with something "new" doesn't make it "better". Going back to the full grip, thumb over thumb. MANY thanks to Massad. I hope I can regain lost confidence & a bit of pride.
Massad Ayoob is like the Mr. Miyagi of Combative Shooting Arts. I have been a student of his since I was an MP in 1987 and I always learn something new from his storehouse of knowledge, experience, and expertise. Truly, he is one of the greats.
Mas, can’t thank you enough .. truer words never spoken . Find what works for you ! It’s evolving not doctrine ... words from a true master 👏
I started shooting with a revolver years ago, and I still use thumbs down on everything. I've tried thumbs forward but I can't control it as well. As with everything it comes down to what's best for each person. Love listening to Massad, he's like a Jedi Ninja when it comes to firearms 👍
Very good to see you again Mas! Keep making new videos for the Mas-ses!