Their best argument responding to it is this: people counterfeit US dollars, but that doesn't mean US dollars don't exist while it does mean those original dollars are worth something everyone agrees on - that's why they're counterfeited. There are several levels on which I think this argument fails, but I'll save that for the second Forgeries video, which should be out end of next year. In the mean time, why do you think it fails?
@@ubipetrus3882 The Formula of Hormisdas The formula of Pope St. Hormisdas [A.D. 514-523] which settled first schism between East and West, known as the Acacian schism. Notably, this document was signed by over 2500 bishops, including around 1000 Eastern bishops, and ratified by the Church of Constantinople in A.D. 519. The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers. For it is impossible that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” should not be verified. And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied. From this hope and faith we by no means desire to be separated and, following the doctrine of the Fathers, we declare anathema all heresies, and, especially, the heretic Nestorius, former bishop of Constantinople, who was condemned by the Council of Ephesus, by Blessed Celestine, bishop of Rome, and by the venerable Cyril, bishop of Alexandria. We likewise condemn and declare to be anathema Eutyches and Dioscoros of Alexandria, who were condemned in the holy Council of Chalcedon, which we follow and endorse. This Council followed the holy Council of Nicaea and preached the apostolic faith. And we condemn the assassin Timothy, surnamed Aelurus and also Peter of Alexandria, his disciple and follower in everything. We also declare anathema their helper and follower, Acacius of Constantinople, a bishop once condemned by the Apostolic See, and all those who remain in contact and company with them. Because this Acacius joined himself to their communion, he deserved to receive a judgment of condemnation similar to theirs. Furthermore, we condemn Peter of Antioch with all his followers together together with the followers of all those mentioned above. Following, as we have said before, the Apostolic See in all things and proclaiming all its decisions, we endorse and approve all the letters which Pope St Leo wrote concerning the Christian religion. And so I hope I may deserve to be associated with you in the one communion which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which the whole, true, and perfect security of the Christian religion resides. I promise that from now on those who are separated from the communion of the Catholic Church, that is, who are not in agreement with the Apostolic See, will not have their names read during the sacred mysteries. But if I attempt even the least deviation from my profession, I admit that, according to my own declaration, I am an accomplice to those whom I have condemned. I have signed this, my profession, with my own hand, and I have directed it to you, Hormisdas, the holy and venerable pope of Rome.
@@ubipetrus3882 I would say it only works under the assumption that the papal authority the forgeries were the basis for actually existed prior to the forgeries. The only way to make a counterfeit of something is if the thing does legitimately exist and your fraudulent imitation is a 1:1 copy of it. It's understandable that they'd offer this analogy because the papacy is axiomatic to them, so the same way we'd theoretically tell anti-Trinitarians it doesn't matter if some people forged additional scriptures to teach the Trinity, RCs will hand-wave the forgeries argument, saying things like "Yes they forged documents saying the Pope cannot be judged, but that was already the case and they forged it just to expedite the conclusion that would have been in the Pope's favor anyways to avoid more unnecessary conflict in the decision period" etc.
While the existence of forgeries is unfortunate, they are ultimately unnecessary to establish the primacy of Rome. The authentic writings of the early Church Fathers, ecumenical councils, and ancient canons provide clear evidence of Rome's unique role in the Church. Even the Orthodox Church recognizes titles such as "Apostolic See," "Chair of Peter," "Head of all the Churches," "The Church which Presides in Love" and "Mother and Teacher of All Churches". Historically, Rome has been recognized as having a unique role in preserving unity and orthodoxy, though this has been understood as a primacy of honor rather than a primacy of universal jurisdiction.
No church on earth is the true church of Christ. Every single church has its flaws! The Presbyterian Protestant woman spent her life taking care of orphans. At her Funeral, aged 82, 4 of the children came to her funeral. Ezekiel 25:17 ✝️✅ she’s now with her Father, in heaven. Only the father of lies will say otherwise.
Interesting information, but I do have one question... does this video (including the full-length version on Patreon) carry an _Imprimatur & Nihil Obstat?_ 😄
I think Uncut Mountain Press with be releasing a book in this. Fr. Peter Heers said they will be releasing a book going over all of the Papal Contradictions.
@@ubipetrus3882Ubi, great video, but I reject your statement that Saint Emperors Constantinus & Justinianus had 'lust for power'. St. Constantinus only had it *before* he converted, and St. Justinianus had none whatsoever.
🇷🇺☦️One of the most despicable & shameless forgery is "donations of Constantinus". St. Constantinus declared Constantinopolis as the 2nd Rome ‐ the exact opposite of what this ridiculous farytale claims. What is more shameful is the refuse of the "catholic" church to venerate the Blessed Emperor, who is equal to the Apostles.
Rome and Romanists like to memory-hole both Saint Ambrose and Saint Constantine, because they are direct refutations of their Rome-centric worldly empire religion.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And you know what is their excuse for not venerating him? They have problem with his Conquests (where he converted all the pagans!). Apparently, they never heard of the biblical rule of a holy war & now believe in a liberal hippie god.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And you know what their excuse is? They have a problem with his conquests (which have converted all the pagans). Apparently, they never heard of holy wars & believe in a liberal hippie god.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And their excuse is that they have problem with his conquests (which converted all the pagans). I guess they don't know what holy wars are & believe in a hippie liberal god & democracy.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And you know what is there excuse, right? They have problem with his conquests (where he converted the pagans). Apparently they never heard of holy wars & believe in a hippie god.
The Greeks would know this best..... Matthew 16 PETER: You are the Christ JESUS: You are a stone (Petros) and on this Rock (Petra) himself, the subject (the Christ) I will build my church. If Peter is the Head of the Church, why does Jesus say moments later "Get thee behind me Satan!
Nicea 2 is talking about 1 aspect of orthopraxis, that was testified to the world over aside from Byzantine iconoclasts influenced by political actors and some Franks. The papal forgeries are talking about the very lynchpin of the entire Church institution. The fact that there was enough of a dearth of evidence over the supremacy of the Pope over every Christian that documents had to be forged is much different than quoting some dubious documents in a council full of other claims and arguments that was accepted by the whole church. The East never accepted these forgeries nor did they even know about them until push came to shove. The entire Church accepted Nicea 2’s theology.
@@petros-estin-petra- Now you're just lying. Any unity criticism you make would invalidate the Church of the first millennium. Christ also told us not to be gay, so I won't be a papist.
Irenaeus, Against Hereies, §2.13.3 “But if they had known the Scriptures, and been taught by the truth, they would have known, beyond doubt, that God is not as men are; and that His thoughts are not like the thoughts of men.(2) For the Father of all is at a vast distance from those affections and passions which operate among men. He is a simple, uncompounded Being, without diverse members,(3) and altogether like, and equal to himself, since He is wholly understanding, and wholly spirit, and wholly thought, and wholly intelligence, and wholly reason, and wholly hearing, and wholly seeing, and wholly light, and the whole source of all that is good--even as the religious and pious are wont to speak concerning God.”
Palamism is not at odds with divine simplicity, nor is Orthodoxy at odds with a proper understanding of the procession of the Spirit as including or being related to the Son in some way The Thomistic view of simplicity is opposed to Palamism, but also Scotism, and both of those views are permitted to Catholics. The Florentine formula of filioque is problematic, but Rome already permits ECs to hold to their pre-schism Trinitarian theology in full (read the Reunion Treaties, not the least of which is Brest specifying that their Greek trinitarianism is permissible as a condition of reunification)
Is your church the tradition in the first century we have have a dialogue were the papacy was a evolution and wasn’t in the first century’s of the church
![HIWWHEE | OHM [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OJJLtTLqLag/mqdefault.jpg)
In my humble opinion, this is one of the most important Orthodox apologetic works of our time.
😯
Makes no sense!
I would love to see RC apologists engage with this information. Well done Ubi ☦️
St. Jerome “Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is unholy. Those who were not in the ark of Noah perished in the flood.”
@@sleepystar1638exactly. When the RCs made a fake, fraudulent arc, they condemned their followers.
Their best argument responding to it is this: people counterfeit US dollars, but that doesn't mean US dollars don't exist while it does mean those original dollars are worth something everyone agrees on - that's why they're counterfeited.
There are several levels on which I think this argument fails, but I'll save that for the second Forgeries video, which should be out end of next year. In the mean time, why do you think it fails?
@@ubipetrus3882 The Formula of Hormisdas
The formula of Pope St. Hormisdas [A.D. 514-523] which settled first schism between East and West, known as the Acacian schism. Notably, this document was signed by over 2500 bishops, including around 1000 Eastern bishops, and ratified by the Church of Constantinople in A.D. 519.
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
For it is impossible that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” should not be verified. And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied.
From this hope and faith we by no means desire to be separated and, following the doctrine of the Fathers, we declare anathema all heresies, and, especially, the heretic Nestorius, former bishop of Constantinople, who was condemned by the Council of Ephesus, by Blessed Celestine, bishop of Rome, and by the venerable Cyril, bishop of Alexandria. We likewise condemn and declare to be anathema Eutyches and Dioscoros of Alexandria, who were condemned in the holy Council of Chalcedon, which we follow and endorse. This Council followed the holy Council of Nicaea and preached the apostolic faith. And we condemn the assassin Timothy, surnamed Aelurus and also Peter of Alexandria, his disciple and follower in everything. We also declare anathema their helper and follower, Acacius of Constantinople, a bishop once condemned by the Apostolic See, and all those who remain in contact and company with them. Because this Acacius joined himself to their communion, he deserved to receive a judgment of condemnation similar to theirs. Furthermore, we condemn Peter of Antioch with all his followers together together with the followers of all those mentioned above.
Following, as we have said before, the Apostolic See in all things and proclaiming all its decisions, we endorse and approve all the letters which Pope St Leo wrote concerning the Christian religion. And so I hope I may deserve to be associated with you in the one communion which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which the whole, true, and perfect security of the Christian religion resides. I promise that from now on those who are separated from the communion of the Catholic Church, that is, who are not in agreement with the Apostolic See, will not have their names read during the sacred mysteries. But if I attempt even the least deviation from my profession, I admit that, according to my own declaration, I am an accomplice to those whom I have condemned. I have signed this, my profession, with my own hand, and I have directed it to you, Hormisdas, the holy and venerable pope of Rome.
@@ubipetrus3882 I would say it only works under the assumption that the papal authority the forgeries were the basis for actually existed prior to the forgeries. The only way to make a counterfeit of something is if the thing does legitimately exist and your fraudulent imitation is a 1:1 copy of it. It's understandable that they'd offer this analogy because the papacy is axiomatic to them, so the same way we'd theoretically tell anti-Trinitarians it doesn't matter if some people forged additional scriptures to teach the Trinity, RCs will hand-wave the forgeries argument, saying things like "Yes they forged documents saying the Pope cannot be judged, but that was already the case and they forged it just to expedite the conclusion that would have been in the Pope's favor anyways to avoid more unnecessary conflict in the decision period" etc.
Ubi: Rome, what is your source?
Rome: We made it up.
Haha, literally!
While the existence of forgeries is unfortunate, they are ultimately unnecessary to establish the primacy of Rome. The authentic writings of the early Church Fathers, ecumenical councils, and ancient canons provide clear evidence of Rome's unique role in the Church.
Even the Orthodox Church recognizes titles such as "Apostolic See," "Chair of Peter," "Head of all the Churches," "The Church which Presides in Love" and "Mother and Teacher of All Churches".
Historically, Rome has been recognized as having a unique role in preserving unity and orthodoxy, though this has been understood as a primacy of honor rather than a primacy of universal jurisdiction.
@@petros-estin-petra- we're usually contesting Vatican I papal supremacy, not historic papal primacy.
@@aquavitae3824 Vatican I was centuries after the Great Schism.
Would you become Catholic if Vatican I didn't happen? If not, why mention it?
@@petros-estin-petra-because the dogmatic teachings of Vatican 1 are the thing in question
Its sad how so many people were fooled, I trust God will have mercy on those who fell into error because of them.
No church on earth is the true church of Christ. Every single church has its flaws!
The Presbyterian Protestant woman spent her life taking care of orphans. At her Funeral, aged 82, 4 of the children came to her funeral.
Ezekiel 25:17
✝️✅ she’s now with her Father, in heaven. Only the father of lies will say otherwise.
Interesting information, but I do have one question... does this video (including the full-length version on Patreon) carry an _Imprimatur & Nihil Obstat?_ 😄
Congrats on 10k subs!
On the one hand, it took four years; on the other hand, it only took 21 videos (and five clips).
I need a book with all this info
I think Uncut Mountain Press with be releasing a book in this. Fr. Peter Heers said they will be releasing a book going over all of the Papal Contradictions.
Have you read Edward Siecienski’s book titled The Papacy and the Orthodox?
Unglaublich
Слава православна ☦️☦️☦️
Is this a reupload?
It's the full version. Previously, only the half was available.
@@ubipetrus3882Ubi, great video, but I reject your statement that Saint Emperors Constantinus & Justinianus had 'lust for power'. St. Constantinus only had it *before* he converted, and St. Justinianus had none whatsoever.
@@ubipetrus3882 I see, thank you. I will adjust my various playlists accordingly haha
☦☦☦
🇷🇺☦️One of the most despicable & shameless forgery is "donations of Constantinus". St. Constantinus declared Constantinopolis as the 2nd Rome ‐ the exact opposite of what this ridiculous farytale claims. What is more shameful is the refuse of the "catholic" church to venerate the Blessed Emperor, who is equal to the Apostles.
Rome and Romanists like to memory-hole both Saint Ambrose and Saint Constantine, because they are direct refutations of their Rome-centric worldly empire religion.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And you know what is their excuse for not venerating him? They have problem with his Conquests (where he converted all the pagans!). Apparently, they never heard of the biblical rule of a holy war & now believe in a liberal hippie god.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And you know what their excuse is? They have a problem with his conquests (which have converted all the pagans). Apparently, they never heard of holy wars & believe in a liberal hippie god.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And their excuse is that they have problem with his conquests (which converted all the pagans). I guess they don't know what holy wars are & believe in a hippie liberal god & democracy.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Exactly. And you know what is there excuse, right? They have problem with his conquests (where he converted the pagans). Apparently they never heard of holy wars & believe in a hippie god.
The Greeks would know this best..... Matthew 16
PETER: You are the Christ
JESUS: You are a stone (Petros) and on this Rock (Petra) himself, the subject (the Christ) I will build my church.
If Peter is the Head of the Church, why does Jesus say moments later "Get thee behind me Satan!
075 Schaden Greens
Council of Nicaea 2 used forgeries btw
Nicea 2 is talking about 1 aspect of orthopraxis, that was testified to the world over aside from Byzantine iconoclasts influenced by political actors and some Franks.
The papal forgeries are talking about the very lynchpin of the entire Church institution.
The fact that there was enough of a dearth of evidence over the supremacy of the Pope over every Christian that documents had to be forged is much different than quoting some dubious documents in a council full of other claims and arguments that was accepted by the whole church.
The East never accepted these forgeries nor did they even know about them until push came to shove. The entire Church accepted Nicea 2’s theology.
Proof?
@@hxplxss1835 do you seriously reject this
The argument is that forgeries are the basis for this doctrine, not just that they were utilized.
@@that_sun_guy6527 lol not the case
Without lies, Catholicism dies
The Gates of Hell will not prevail.
Perhaps you just mean “medieval monarchial papism”
@@petros-estin-petra- Nor have they against Christ's Church, Holy Orthodoxy.
@@hxplxss1835 There's no Unity in "Orthodoxy". Christ commanded us to be One.
@@petros-estin-petra- Now you're just lying. Any unity criticism you make would invalidate the Church of the first millennium.
Christ also told us not to be gay, so I won't be a papist.
Both Catholics and orthodox have used forgeries in their arguments. But the fathers still taught the filioque and divine simplicity 😉
Irenaeus, Against Hereies, §2.13.3
“But if they had known the Scriptures, and been taught by the truth, they would have known, beyond doubt, that God is not as men are; and that His thoughts are not like the thoughts of men.(2) For the Father of all is at a vast distance from those affections and passions which operate among men. He is a simple, uncompounded Being, without diverse members,(3) and altogether like, and equal to himself, since He is wholly understanding, and wholly spirit, and wholly thought, and wholly intelligence, and wholly reason, and wholly hearing, and wholly seeing, and wholly light, and the whole source of all that is good--even as the religious and pious are wont to speak concerning God.”
Ok, cool, none of that refutes Palamasism. What do you think St. Gregory Palamas teaches?
Is that why Rome accepts EED as being a valid position? Not to mention omitting the Filioque.
Palamism is not at odds with divine simplicity, nor is Orthodoxy at odds with a proper understanding of the procession of the Spirit as including or being related to the Son in some way
The Thomistic view of simplicity is opposed to Palamism, but also Scotism, and both of those views are permitted to Catholics. The Florentine formula of filioque is problematic, but Rome already permits ECs to hold to their pre-schism Trinitarian theology in full (read the Reunion Treaties, not the least of which is Brest specifying that their Greek trinitarianism is permissible as a condition of reunification)
Is your church the tradition in the first century we have have a dialogue were the papacy was a evolution and wasn’t in the first century’s of the church
The argument summarized: If Pope, why bad people?
What?
Your argument summarized: "Straw man"
@@iangregory9763 Still think the Bishop of Rome deserves the Primacy of Honor or did that change after the forgeries?
Little quick to the keyboard, didn’t think this one out, huh?
Why forge a deed to a house, when you already own the house?