Alright Josh, you've convinced me. Time to start covering MMOs, wish me luck! edit: Reporting back in. They called me a filthy casual and corpse camped me for hours. Mission failed.
Just a note, I'd like to see the full interviews uploaded somewhere if possible. Mostly just because I enjoy interview content, and think it would be worthwhile to see the more complete form of each creator's views.
Even if i am unlikely to listen to this myself i see it as a important resource for later content creators and researchers within the field if they had access to the full interviews.
Chef, you are the prime example of how the audience is the exact same people switching between similar/same content. i love that you are here but damn....josh hit the nail on the head with that one :) I'm curious how long you have been following him or mmo/game trends in general. PS: loved your anime expo food review!
very true. back in 2009-2011 I played a game called runescape and put 1000s+ hours in and was big on youtube at that time, I was awkward in real life and video games were an escape from my reality especially mmo games. I haven't went back in over 7 years the best decision ive made. those games literally suck your soul and makes you miss out on life & self improvement. excellent video bro
These topics don't come up enough! I think a lot of this stuff can be very broadly applied to the larger content creation scene too. The way social media operates doesn't encourage content creators to make good content, rather it encourages creators to make as much content as fast as possible as relevant as possible (which naturally doesn't lend itself well to games as massive as MMOs). And without a large production team the obvious sacrifice is always going to be how substantive the content is and how well made the content is. The ultimate and logical conclusion of this is the react content meta, which has streamlined the production of relevant content to the point where it takes about the same time to create as it does to watch a video. Another really important, the constant hostility towards criticism of our favourite games (particularly long term games like MMOs) is such a self destructive behaviour that I see almost every MMO community engage in. I think it's driven by a fear that a game might die and become irrelevant and must therefore be defended at all costs, however this ignores the fact that weird cult like behaviour scares players away and a refusal to engage in criticism ultimately makes games worse. A great video and a great conversation, thanks a lot for having me on!
I don't agree. There are plenty of TH-cam content creators that deliver a big video every 6 months; example: Captain Disillusion. There are plenty of large channels that do a video every 2 weeks; example: Dude Perfect. And there are examples of those that do on average a video a month; example: Mark Rober. Just because the majority have a fast content pace doesn't mean you have to match it. The main issue with MMO content is in the majority of MMO games the patches aren't expansive enough to warrant explaining. Take a game like Elden Ring, where the lore is so obtuse and complex people are still unpicking it months after the release. The same happens with Dark Souls and critically their expansions. When Elden Ring gets its first DLC we'll see the same weeks of videos trying to understand and breakdown the patch. MMO patches in contrast can be slightly more frequent, but aside from expansion drops are typically so lore/content light a single 10m video summarizing the content will do and sometimes this is even overkill. You don't need a 1hr+ summary on patch notes as a player, as you will already have read the patch notes and understood them if you're commited, so there is actually very little to make content on for the majority of patches. Other game genres on TH-cam then diversify their content by doing different playthrough styles of games, with different builds or character choices or handicaps. MMOs at first glance seem ideal for this with their long progression arc meaning you can milk a lot of videos, but in reality why would someone watch a video of you doing it when they could do it themselves. People enjoy watching no hit Elden Ring playthroughs for example as it's a level they can't achieve, but by the very nature of MMOs the content is (in general) widely accesible. It's not a shock that MMO viewership peaks around world-first races to clear raids, or in big tournaments because the players are playing on a level that the viewers can't match - so instead of just going and experiencing the content themselves they're watching it instead. This then basically forces MMO content creators to make tutorial videos (How to get X, or how to gear for Y), critque videos (which are naturally going to be met with backlash, and regardless of the genre this is true), get early access to patches by building a dev relationship and rushing to be the first video on it, or rely and lean heavily on their personalities - and the sad truth is a lot of MMO content creators don't have engaging personalities to watch; and those that do make more money off of livestreams. You don't see many MMO content creators because simply there is very little good content to make.
Here's a question: Why should I automatically respect you and your opinion, simply because you make videos on games? These content creators sound like they deserve respect. For what? It's the entertainment business. You don't deserve anything. Just because you think your opinion was genuine, doesn't mean everyone else has to show you respect. Then you go and dig for excuses as to why so-and-so person didn't give you the respect you think you're entitled to. You have a career out of giving your opinion, and nobody but you and your tribe of followers think you're deserving of respect from all mmo players. You're living in your own content creator bubble. And you can kick and scream and accuse certain playerbases of not behaving how you think they should, but that still doesn't change the fact that you're holding a halo over your head and pointing to it as if you're an unbiased source of information. People aren't as gullible as you accuse them of being.
@@joelhodoborgas hey he adds to it, I find it more enjoyable to watch it with him commenting on it, and I rewatch stuff I’ve seen before if he reacts to its. he’s entertaining
@@joelhodoborgas I think with content creators that have a following based on their personality, reaction videos are genuinely their own content. Asmongold and Rease are perfect examples of this.
People are lonely and want to feel like someone is watching with them. Its why there is watch with channels. People are isolated and lonely and need to go out and make real friends.
As a veteran Lord of the Rings Online player with over 4000 hours in game, you hardcore ragebaited me with your Worst MMO Ever episode on it, and that video got me ADDICTED to your channel
Hey, I resemble that remark! ;) Recent returnie...for like the 10th time lol! Been at it on & off since beta, but due to my alt-o-holism, only ever gotten a Warden to lvl 61. So, I couldn't resist the free Valar to 120 they gave us recently, so I rolled a Beorning & now having a blast with her :D. Just running around lower level zones, collecting mats on my war horse, smelling the roses, taking in the sights (OMG the sights!), has reminded me just how large & epic & beautiful the world is, even with the very old graphics engine. Imagine a total reboot in Unreal Engine 5...;) _drool_
I just returned to LOTRO a few days ago after Rings of Power looking completely terrible and his video also put it back in my memory so I guess I’m the opposite of you? i dunno really I’ve been addicted to josh’s videos for a while now
I exclusively watch youtube creators who make interesting long form essay's about any topic. I don't care so long as you're good at presenting your topic. I don't know if I'm an outlier but this is how I found your channel and many others like it.
For me, anything that can be adequately explained in an under 10 minute video (excluding educational channels like vsauce and SciShow) just isn't that interesting.
For me, anything that can be adequately explained in an under 10 minute video (excluding educational channels like vsauce and SciShow) just isn't that interesting.
@ChickenJoe-tq6xd So I have to say those of us who watch hour plus long videos are already a "small" audience relative to the majority. Then add the extra layer of watching an hour plus video about a subject I have no real history with and that becomes an even smaller minority.
Agree 100% with the comparisons of "general" vs "specialized". I myself started finding success on Twitch/TH-cam as a Guild Wars 2 content creator, specializing in that one thing until I was doing it full time. After 7 thousand hours played, thousands of videos, and over a hundred guides for the game I started to burn out on playing just that one thing. I wanted more. Diversifying into other content at that point was difficult. I wanted to do it for my sanity, and to keep my job fun, but at the same time it was a job and it paid my bills, so I had to find a balance of still making content for what I had specialized in for so long, and also content breaking into new areas. I have a good balance going now that I'm happy with but just wanted to say that my own experience totally backs what was said in this video.
Hey Mukluk, so glad to see you here, love your work and especially so glad you found your balance. Got back to the game after a 9 years hiatus- yeah EvE and Starcraft and fencing and stuff- thanks to people like you or our dear teapot. Had the occasion to speak to another content creator who nearly burnt themselves while doing Magic Arena stuff and yeah it seems freaking hard to endure. And dealing with the toxic part of each community, oh boy, time out! Cheers and yeah scrapper all the way
Have to admit i was thinking about you for that segment. You did it also quite smartly. You transitioned slowly and smoothly to more diversified content and probably avoided quite some of the shock when specialized creators switch their games too abruptly.
As a mabinogi content creator primarily, I've just accepted that it's a pretty niche community and I should not expect large view counts or massive growth from it. BUT in sticking to my guns and creating content for this games community I've still had many opportunities given to channels MUCH larger, like being flown out to collaborate with the Nexon team at events, sponsored support for videos, shout outs on social media and more! Its not easy but I really do think it can be rewarding to produce content for MMO's even if its something kinda niche.
I spent my high school years playing mabinogi and I had a fun time. However it was mostly because of the friends I was playing with. It's good to see someone keep the game alive through their content.
I miss Mabinogi the same way an old coke fiend misses crack. It's power still lingers within me, but I can't go back to it since there's nothing there for me anymore. It'd feel like going to a bar you haven't been in for decades and seeing nobody you recognize or relate to. Feelsbadman.
Ah, man. Maginobi had some of the best ideas and so many mechanics that were fundamentally great and no one else had, though had subpar to mediocre execution/integration. Were I to pick one existing mmo to improve, it would probably be that one. Respect.
Getting this insight into the minds of the largest creators in the space is really appreciated, and super encouraging to us smaller guys! Thank you for putting this together
I had this exact problem for FFXIV, I didnt know, but after doing a big 10 hours or so of the beginning I was really bored, then look on forum, oh but the game is "incredible" after 30.. I felt scammed because its just a big gatekeeping with sucky low level stuff
FFXIV simply improves over time, because the dev team improved over time. It starts out ok, but not great, because they were rushing really hard to re-release the game after 1.0 nearly destroyed the franchise. 2.0 is fine for an old MMO. 6.0 still made me emotional on my third playthrough.
I feel like Josh is that one guy in the overall MMO community who’s pretty much friends with every other major content creator in the space, and the fact he was able to get 14 different perspectives on this ranging from Asmon being like 60% reaction and 40% WoW at this point to Callum specializing exclusively in the fabled world of “scam mmos” just proves that theory
I don't trust anyone who's that friendly with everyone, Josh has some skeletons somewhere. (And he used/uses Asmon as much as he can to get more views, scummy, but works)
I feel like this is a video that I'm going to keep coming back to over time. There is a lot of great information in here for anyone currently doing MMO content creation or anyone considering jumping into it. As always, thanks for the awesome content Josh :)
My MMO of choice for the last 14 years has been WOW. Recently I invited my friend to check it out. He played for like 2 hours and has never played it since. Many, even the most established MMOs have terribe (i.e. boring) onboarding process, thus bad new player retention.
I was an EQ2 player for years, I barely got to endgame in burning crusade before the thought of logging into wow was akin to wanting a nap on my keyboard.
The novelty of playing in a massive, open world full of players that was so compelling in 2004 is long gone. Now the new player experience has to be much more compelling. Exile's Reach is good, but once you're done WoW drops you in BFA and the Alliance side of BFA is pretty dull.
The entry cost to get to the fun in wow is just too high. It's objectively not fun early game. Everything is very outdated by today's standards. The way they could improve it would be to give levels, skills, mounts and flying, lfr leveling raids, more end game style dungeons early on etc. It's just such a big gap in content quality. Either make new leveling content, update the old or just throw players into the new expansion directly and scale their stats while they gain levels and skills rapidly to catch up.
Really well done Interview and great variety of guests here. Time investment does always come into play here, especially when comparing to FPS games or quick match style games. 2 Hours for an FPS player can be more than enough to feel accomplished for the day, whereas the MMO player 2 hours could only be the halfway point of something. The learning curve is more difficult as well and having to always keep up. I do relate to the specialized and loyalty side of the argument as a recent content creator myself, having played since the original GW. I enjoy the game and I am ok with what it is and provides. Is it frustrating when the game isn't what you want it to be? Sure but you're not going to find everything in one game, and I think a lot of players who have good criticism and DO want change, often times it can lead to major burnout or even flat out never returning. I genuinely enjoy the game I picked and while I know the risks of being a one game creator, I would still pick GW again as the game I started content for. MMO's go through many changes over the years, a game now can be very different from what it was on release. Compare this to RPG games where the major changes are not in the same game but the sequel. Same with FPS, there may be changes to how a weapon deals damage or map spawns etc, but that does not fundamentally change the whole game. It's more of a class build update, whereas MMO's a change in direction could mean a change in the content actually produced going forward. There is honestly a lot of points to talk about, just wanted to comment on those two points in the video, as I recently discussed this with a friend who only plays FPS games. Great job and would love to see the full release to be honest. The MMO discussion is a sensitive topic and it can get sour for many people, but this video addressing some of the fundamental issues is very important
We all deserve to be loved like how Josh Strife Loved MMO's. His journey from early works on Neverwinter to where he is today. The shameless pay to win culture of his beloved games and yet he endures. ❤️ If you are the real Josh I watched all your videos on my second monitor and think you're the best. 🤗
@@Nostromo2144 They're named that because it's a video series, you dingus. He plays plenty. That's why his breakdowns are accurate, widely watched, and well received. I have a strong feeling he insulted a game you like and you're buttmad.
@@Nostromo2144 Maybe if you watched the videos instead of immediately having a childish response to the title of his series, you would actually realize that he doesn't consider many of them bad games at all. He honestly critiques the games and often praises a lot of the games heavily for what they do right. Hell this comment alone shows you haven't even watched the video you left the comment on.
I loved seeing the different perspectives on this, especially when they kind of reinforced what the others were saying with their own experiences. You are an absolute content genius.
Hey Josh! Thanks for this video. I am a starting MMO Content creator myself for the spanish speaking audience and your insights were incredibly helpful.
I talk to a lot of MMO only players and their scope and vision of gaming in general is tiny. They have no clue what gaming as a whole so basic things like a good UI seems so foreign to them its weird to me.
Josh been watching you since few thousand subs. You never cease to astound me, great interviewer, community advocate, dry wit. Seriously true sigma male grindset.
okay I forgot lazypeon's parts had to be read in so when his part came up I was like "damn this guy sounds exactly like Josh" damn idk what about Nerdslayer's voice but I could listen to him talk about video games at length he has a very soothing voice As someone who only recently got into mmos with lost ark and ffxiv 100 hours now definitely feels way less substantial than it did before, when I think about where I was in both games at the 100 hour mark, I wasn't even in Heavensward yet in ffxiv and for lost ark I wasn't even in tier 3 yet at the 100 hour mark which for a lot of people is where the game really starts
Yes nerdslayer has one of the best voices of the bunch and btw he has a podcast called 6 pixels under where he has dozens and dozens of hours of content if you want.
I did have to check whether it was LazyPeon or Josh talking nearly every time. Probably should have used a slight radio filter to make it clear he is reading his comments, especially since most people will only listen to the video and miss the name on screen. Not a big deal, but if he does another video like this hopefully he'll rectify that.
Josh, I applaud you for gathering the content creators and making this video. A lot of MMO players don’t understand the struggle of content creation in this genre and I truly appreciate you making this video. Mad respect to you and the other creators!!
What it boils down to (To my understanding) is don't pick up an MMO and think it's going to be your day job. People want to hear from other people that are as passionate about their game as they are. On top of that, people forget that people (such as yourself) are not paid to play video games, they are paid for their entertainment value and personality (which some people forget is just a persona, and try to get on webcam and just 'be themselves' and get nowhere, but that's a different discussion) - the video game is just the mutual interest. Coming into the gaming TH-cam/Twitch ecosystem with the idea of making money off of playing a game is working in the wrong way. There are a ton of people that have put in very real and hard work and went nowhere in gaming entertainment, but in the same regard, the best way to peel a banana is from the bottom.
Just want to say I love your commitment to the bit of keeping all your supporters' names on one page. Every time you squish more names onto that screen you gain power.
This is peak first monitor content. Thank you for your work! I think by playing the same game for hundreds of hours, people conditionalize themselves to only like a specific take on the implementation of a system, and the moment a game presents essentially the same system but through different lenses people simply reject it saying it's bad. Addressing the "it gets better after X happens": of course there can be more than those X hours to a game, and while albeit it could be more quality content, it doesn't take into account the most essential resource people do(n't) have: time. Time investment is objectively subjective. Criticism towards people who are not willing to invest as much, even though it's a bad experience for them, is bull. I find "Should you play X?@1" and "My first impressions on X@2" extremely valuable given @1 is a generalized overview on the whole game(which will indeed take more work for the creator) and @2 is titled appropriately to manage expectations. There's a plethora of games on the market I could be playing. Instead of suffering though 80 hours of pain, I would rather play 4-5 good games and make good use of my time. People are obviously different. While "the customer is (almost) always right", I genuinely believe there is a lot the audience can do better; from criticising a game or a content creator just for having a different opinion, containing threats(!!!) to other people, to understanding that they're not the centre of the universe. Thanks Josh and to the other content creators, you're precious.
The whole "It's better in the endgame" argument sounds so stupid like if you even ask the person "okay, when is the endgame?" and they respond with " Oh the endgame is like 50-1k hours in". Why TF would a person slave through 50+ hours of boring stuff to maybe enjoy the game?
fake news, this video can basically be summed up as a bunch of people who play videogames for a living complaining that "reeee the players suck, boo everyone who criticizes me!!"
@@franciscopereira5760 It is high quality, you can clearly see how much effort all of the creators put into this video. I can tell because I work at KCNA. The Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) is the state news agency of North Korea. The agency portrays the views of the North Korean government for both domestic and foreign consumption. It was established on December 5, 1946, is superior to CNN, and now features online coverage.
I don't think the average MMO-Player rushes to endgame. It's more a hardcore-playerbase thing to do. Most players enjoy taking it their own pace, messing around, socialise and are not interested into raids and endgame. They like making progress, but they are not intested to be "pushed to their limits". Casuals are the majority.
I found this video to be so relatable, I even jotted down my own thoughts about joshs list before watching and am glad that so many of my frustrations are shared by the larger successful creators, i.e. speed of release for views in lieu of quality. For all the other more niche mmo creators out there, keep hustling and doing what you love c:
I started playing ESO in February. My biggest complaint about it was that it was NOT beginner player friendly (in terms of where to start and what path to take). I met people who were so mad at this opinion but I see so many other new players have the same complaint. The cult-like mentality is definitely there. I lucked out and found a great guild but most players don't and it sucks.
This isn't even a negative comment about the video itself but man this intro hit me like a truck when I realised how commonly being a youtuber is now talked about like it's a business or a career instead of a thing that you just do for fun. Times change I guess, but still...
Hearing that Josh talked to Brozime, a known quantity in the Warframe community, and Nerdslayer, maker of the Death of a Game series, was a very welcome surprise.
@@inquisitorichijou883 Brozime reacted to Josh's warframe video, and agreed with him on a lot of his points. I assume that's probably how they came into connection.
I don't bite the first argument "there are not enough viewers". We have very strong content creators for literally every game with a few thousand consecutive players on Steam. Of course these are not Fortnite numbers.
MMO content creators are important cause they almost feel like the last bastion of what MMOs used to be - a large community of people wanting to experience many of the same things and being hyped on people achieving their goals. That has all but been lost for such a long time but experiencing chat lose their mind over Asmongold gaining a mount he's been trying for years to get is the same experience I had in Everquest when Fires of Heaven posted world first screenshots for the first time 20 years ago. I really wanted to make WoW content focusing on world building and storytelling (as in, fictional stories in the game) and I was halfway through editing one when all the blizzard stuff went down. Kind of don't want to give more eyes to them even though warcraft was my love for 20 years, it's a shame though. I hope that game can recover but I have zero faith in the company either way.
...So about the MMO content creation, do you have a channel link? There hasn't been a single video uploaded on this channel in 5 years, of which maybe 2 or 3 are loosely related to MMOs. So I'm assuming you have a different channel?
@@Kjetilstorm I meant I was in the process of starting one as everything with blizzard happened, it would have been under a new channel yes but at the moment it's just sitting there with nothing on it lol
@@petertrueteller8043 I would argue that content creators are the reason some MMOs still exist. "Ruined" implies that the game was somehow in a perfect state. Everyone pines for the good ole days, mostly because they've forgotten the problems of that time. MMOs now are not good/bad--they're just different, just like the ones back then were the same.
I feel so personally attacked....josh is so right...about being a hardcore player and how immersed you can get and the lines can blur between real life and virtual life...this video literally stopped me in my tracks....Im gonna go take a walk
Lol gotta touch that grass. It is such a good description, but is used to be so insulting that no one thinks about what it SHOULD mean. Reaffirming yourself in reality, so you don't get lost enjoying the game.
dude i felt the same way, i was playing warframe with this vid in a background and just went "wow this describes me and my crippling addiction to wf and valorant".
I think the trick as a gamer, is to learn to translate the competitive spirit to grind in game (PvE, PvP,), to real life, at least in some capacity. It does not work for everyone, of course, but "gamefying" my life has made me more productive, allowed me to pursue things in my life that i have forsaken because I wanted to grind 20 hrs in WoW. Me being the bestest gamer in the world does not give me a paycheck, wrecks my body, destroys all personal relationships, and obliterates my self worth. It works if you are a content creator or into esports (because you get paid) but for most of us plebs, who give a shit about being world's first lmao. Now with a good job, improving health, and better mental health, I have naturally started to enjoy gaming again without forcing it.
I was baffled at the 100hs "requirement" for MMO reviews. I've been playing MMOs for 20 years. I understand the level of investment required. 100hs don't even sound as a big number to me for even a standard player. But, I've been listening to this video with my brain switched to "professional" mindset, instead of "MMO fan", and my brain immediately translated 100hs to 2.5 weeks of 8hs professional work days. That's insane to ask of this level of review! That pretty much means a single game reviewed per month (because I'd follow those 100 hours of gameplay with a demand of another week or so to write and produce a good review/video)
MMO reviews have almost never made much sense, especially since most are written based on Beta gameplay. They are outdated almost within the month of their release and are heavily skewed by short term problems like overloaded servers, hotfixes, rebalancing and introduction of new content. I owned the original WoW players guide and almost everything in it was wrong for the release version of the game.
Just a thought, but it may have been an idea to flag when you're reading The Lazy Peon's statements with an audio cue. That way the visually impaired would be less confused when you show up in the interviewee's statements (especially cause it's hard to tell whether you are or just introducing a new segment)
Finally watched it! Awesome video, made me have even more appreciation for the passion that content creators have despite all the difficulties. And it's another proof that success is driven by doing what you love. If not for your passion & stubbornness we wouldn't be able to watch this video :D Great job! (too bad the history-themed videos are not that popular, they are my favourite :c)
Only Josh and LazyPeon are the big content creators I followed. But others like Asmon and MMObyte, I used to follow them but not anymore cuz they are more focused on dramas, rumors, Tweets, and other stressful things which sometimes had nothing to do with MMO. I miss the old MMO community tbh.
@@Vince-tt1uj which is why I like em both. They do criticize the games after they played it for amount of time compared to others like Asmon who sometimes giving impression to games even without playing it through rumors, game footages, and his community. Joshstrifehayes and LazyPeon's games/mmo reviews are my guidebooks before jumping on a game.
As a 1.0 FFXIV vet, the calling out of the FFXIV community is hitting the nail on the head. The FFXIV community can be incredibly toxic to any criticism of the game or Yoshida. Extreme toxic positivity.
We don't deserve this precious boy. At he start he says he wouldn't edit anyone's statements to alter their points, Zepla savages him in her interview, he responds saying he'll edit it out, sarcastically...and doesn't. What a treasure.
I forgot Josh was an actor but this video shows it really well. Being new to the channel and not knowing who The Lazy Peon is, every time his name pops up I thought "hold on, this is just Josh, what's going on? is this some sort of inside joke that I haven't discovered yet?" and only 1 hour and 30 mins in did I remember he said he was given the answers and he would read them out, this man reads a script so damn well I forgot he already told us he was going to just be reading TLP's answer
Kudos to you for even remembering that. I completely forgot about it and kept being weirded out how they both have the same voice throughout the entire video 😮💨
I can't believe you guys were all in league with Bobby Kotick this whole time. Literally shaking right now from this terrifying truthbomb, I may never sleep again. 10/10, you magnificent bastards.
Josh is quickly becoming one of my most anticipated channels to look out for in my sub box. Even only 15 minutes in, it is such a good discussion of the topic that, as a side effect, made me check out other content creators I never heard of before as well.
I absolutely agree and i think the same actually. I found out his channel few days ago and have been exploring his videos. They are entertaining, funny, straight to the point and very informative. He brings up really great discussion points in alot of games and about the gaming community in general that need to be discussed from some perspectives. I highly respect him for that especially covering the MMO gaming community. I might as well check other content creators as well since they also seem interesting. LazyPeon being one of my favorites now.
Asmons response to toxicity seems a bit disingenuous since his content is designed to be very reactionary and polarizing because that’s what gets views. He hasn’t been “dealing with” toxicity, he’s been fostering it. You can’t really be be shocked or say you’re dealing with toxicity when telling people to /spit on a group of players because they bought a stupid mount. Yeah, people are gonna get angry with you if you specifically attack them. That’s not buyers remorse that’s defending yourself. I don’t think anything he said in this video was wrong, it just sounds like bullshit coming from him since he’s trying to get those reactions in his usual content.
You literally can't trust anything asmon says, he is the most disingenuous streamer out there. Constantly claims to have a stance on one thing but does the complete opposite. He has zero integrity.
He did that wooooow. That's dumb. A colleague of mine once told me about Fallout 76 having some sort of premium account or whatever and he was so excited that people online tried to dox them, gank them and make them feel miserable for paying something extra. I never got behind why you would do it. Asmo seems to be partly in the same category of person.
I love how so many of Zepla's answers are just the epitome of " deeply enfranchised FFXIV players". Everyone: "Yeah a 100 hours really isn't a realistic amount of time to put into reviewing a single game, though you should be upfront and contextual about your review." Zepla:"100 hours isn't near enough time to review FFXIV. You have to read all the dialogue and reached current endgame before even THINKING about making a review" Funny and very in character lol
44:49 As a God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals, this made me feel a lil warm on the heart 😆 and Josh's clip channel has a video of just my character, "Guild Wars 1 is strange" which cracks me up
Josh. Bruh. That Warcraft comment on the end hit hard. I feel extremely entertained and attacked. As a MMO enthusiast, and WoW mainer - I know that deadened expression of realization. I am that deadened expression of realization.
Honestly, I think one of the most challenging parts about hearing the "You didn't play long enough" complaint is that your perspective on certain things often changes with hindsight. Speaking from my experience basically only playing FFXIV as far as MMOs are concerned, things I enjoyed when playing A Realm Reborn feel different now that I'm in Stormblood. I started as Black Mage and really enjoyed balancing the two stances and seeing the big damage numbers. But now when I'm synced down to those early levels, it feels off because I'm missing some of my later skills that have become a part of my rotation. I didn't feel their absence before I reached the higher levels, though, I just enjoyed it. The same thing happened with me with the story. Aside from a few weird hiccups, I really enjoyed A Realm Reborn's MSQ content, which is widely considered within the community to be substandard. In Stormblood now, I'm seeing why that part of the story is so criticized. The successive storylines really are just that much better. I didn't know this at the time.
@@soldierorsomething Oh, I'm pretty far into it. Just finished the event with the Xaela on the Azim Steppe, which has been my favorite bit of the game so far.
I think some changes in the game are not for the better. I did not enjoy SB precisely because I felt we really didn't see as much of certain areas as I had hoped. There are things from ARR and HW that I miss honestly.
You know what I wanna do? Make a weekly series about a “traveler” character who travels between various MMOs. They experience an MMO for a few weeks and move on to the next MMO when they get tired of it. That way they don’t tread on the hardcore audience’s toes because their entire schtick is they don’t stick around, and the character of the Traveler is what connects the audience through each particular game. It doesn’t have to be logical which order of MMOs the Traveler passes through, the point is the journey not the destination. And if the Traveler becomes enamored of a particular game and sticks around for a while, perhaps they “settle down” for a while until they finally are satisfied and become ready to move on.
Iirc there used to be a Tv show kind of like that. On G4 I believe. I barely remember anything about it but there was a live host that contacted characters that lived in various game worlds. I think one was a crybaby badger person from... I think it was Everquest but I really don't know.
@@Grinnerz1 one of the most often shown characters was the drifter and they made him in many mmo's but often being in Asheron's Call. I believe the show was called Portal. I guess the difference in idea's is a single character travelling mmorpg's like a multiverse and knowing each world is different rather than treating each mmo as a single shared world. I do miss the show but wish it was more on that Drifter character
Thats similar to what I was attempting to do. I play an mmo for a month and go onto the next sometimes returning though in more of a review for casual players who don't want to dive deep into a certain mmo. Who are you and are you me but slightly different? lol
The reason I dont play MMOs from a former regular player, itemized : 1. "The armor you want is from 6 years ago and no longer available. You will literally never be able to get it no matter what, but the content is still taking up space on your hard drive." 2. "Btw, while youre thinking about armor, try the cash shop. Here. Buy our premium currency in intentionally uneven amounts because of incredibly predatory practices" 3. Endgame / endgame items are all locked behind PvP when entire game can be played PvE up til that wall. 4. "I really think you should buy something form the cash shop. Are you *sure*? Heres a popup anytime you log in, or forcing you to return to an in-world premium-item location frequently" 5. Balance updates aimed only at making the game more difficult for hardcore 'lifers' instead of made more fun for most people, effectively gating large amounts of content. 6. Bots. 7. Plleeeeeeeeeeaaaasee buy something, heres a coupon. No? Are you serious? Heres a better coupon. Cmon, theres limited items now. Please just be reasonable. 8. Graveyarded after only a few years, dev moves on when the game makes any less than "a bazillions of dollars" Yes these points are a little goofy but if there were ever a reason I quit an mmo it was because of one of those. _MMO Graveyard_: (Not all are classically considered mmorpg's as the genre goes, but these are the MMO type games Ive played and had to quit for one of the above reasons.) -#TabulaRasa - Graveyarded =#Warframe - advertisements, constant constant advertisements. MTX currency is tradable making real money foundational in the game's economy -#FF14 - this one is odd, it was actually players trying to advertise the game at any opportunity trying to hook people by quoting the free trial thing over and over =#Runescape - (I consider this a Massively-SINGLEPLAYER-online because when do you actually do things with others), ->bots bots bots bots -#Destiny2 - Microtransactions, PVP Gated content, really powerful older content made unaccessible behind seasons =#EliteDangerous - (See, Runescape note) This is actually a very interesting one. Am a 120$ tier beta-backer from their kickstarter and backed it in part because I was promised there'd be no paid DLC (spoiler, there is), but that premium-beta-backer players would get all future DLC for free. So that didnt happen, I called in and got a company representative to confirm that I would be given all future DLC for free, only for another helpdesk to recant on that and refuse to do the right thing. Like a 5 year player told "Well you could wait for a sale if you want horizons". In addition, the game focuses a lot of its update space on little MTX dashboard bobbleheads or ship skins, there were beta exploits where players could just get absolutely insane amounts of money and while those methods are gone- the players still have the cash and power associated with it. Lastly, the powerplay and faction ownership of a system are entirely at the whim of sleepless redditors who will defy any casual-friend-group's attempt to do anything interesting, planets or systems changing ownership are really the only selling point the game has, which applies to both the power play and superpower faction borders. It seems to be very soon to be graveyarded, Frontier seems far more interested in making planet coaster (note : You cannot visit or find planet coaster in elite dangerous), I dont think they understand that developing for and upkeeping an MMO is a job that needs huge amounts of care and focus. I dont see that from Frontier. I backed them on their kickstarter and they burned me for it, how do you think they regard the regular player? -#Maplestory - mtx adverts, bots, time gated armor =#Fallout76 - oh no, I think Im underqualified to discuss FO76 with all the other media out there on it. -#Firefall - :( graveyarded, rest in peace =#GlobalAgenda - Graveyarded so the devs could chase the bazillions of dollars MTX farm Gee, do I have beef with how frontier handled my account, its a mystery ~ You really can tell which game hurt the most to let go in terms of investment / watching the game change from something I loved to something I hate.
The amount of effot that goes into the nuisances of this MMO vid is really good. Very thought provoking and should watch by all veterans in the genre. Awesome!
@@miqotesoulia8620 LOL oh man that made me laugh, props to you for keeping the original spelling. I do this all the time so it made me laugh extra hard.
This may not be possible, but as a follow-up to this video would you be willing to do some sort of guide about what goes into the actual creation of a video from the lens of an MMO content creator. Quick look at editing, scripting, how you pick background footage, etc. I there is demand for something like that I would love to see it.
Hearing that one comment from that one guy (sorry I forgot his name) who mentioned how the FF14 fans are pretty toxic without meaning to made me realize that yea, they kind of are in a way. I myself being apart of that in some sense. Made me reevaluate myself.
This is a really interesting and well-made video. I think another big factor is the attention span of younger gamers - apps like Tiktok demonstrate that so many people just want immediate entertainment and don't have the attention span to stick with one MMO for a long time.
I think Gen Z think that video games are for loosers or manchild boomers. What Gen Z likes are pushing the narcism to the max, they seem to favor the most narcissists influencers.
@@birdbig6852 I don’t think that’s true. There’s probably a greater percentage chance of a Zoomer playing a game than any other generation. You’re not a loser for playing video games, although I think old-school games like isometric turn-based RPGs and MMOs are seen as nerdy still. Anything that takes a big time investment, or playing a game in a way that takes a lot of time is nerdy.
@@birdbig6852 Are you mad or frickin high? Young adults from the late 90s to the 2000s are one of the biggest consumers of games now. If then that group are drawn to the more generic or bader mainstream games such as Fortnite, Minecraft, COD or the likes is another discussion. but they play games more than every
Could also be a lot of people that try lots of the big mmo's dont enjoy the tab targeting style and move on. I personally get pretty bored of most MMO's as the combat gets really dull + its hard to find new people to play with online that arent already just friends in real life.
@@birdbig6852 My man, that's not a generational thing. It's what social media rewards and something that would have existed on any generation that had social media. Also, "Video games are for losers" was literally the default BEFORE Gen Z. Why the fuck would you conflate it with the one generation that's less likely to fall into that mindset? You don't seem reasonable at all, just spewing words like narcissist because you already decided that's the problem, when it's clear you're only looking at the examples that further your bias.
All I want to know from an MMO is if I can wander around aimlessly making friends. Good emotes are important and a design that has players in and around early game zones Or at least having a community that will chat during dungeons! as much as I love hardcore endgame content, that's not where the majority of my time will be spent, even when I do get there
This is very informative for upcoming MMO content creators! It gives a great insight on where to start and the current issues that comes with MMO content and how valuable time and experience can be for the majority of players. Thanks for putting all of this together!
I'm not sure if I feel inspired by this...or depressed. This was fantastic though and I love seeing so many content creators I know and learning about new ones. Excellent points and research as usual. Lots of things to think about.
That ending, poor Josh is dreading the moment xD Thank you and you guests for the interesting discussion regarding a beloved gaming genre, it was really interesting to hear the different perspective even more since I follow some of the guests and got to hear them answer the same question :D Also, are there any videos/audios of the conversations available in another channel? Would be interested to hear the uncut versions.
I’m just gonna say, man, thanks for gathering all these people together in one video, it helps to expose them to the community. I didn’t even knew like more than half of these people before.
i hate when players being so defensive about their game. if people critique the game doesn't mean they hate it or the game is unplayable garbage game, it means that those people want the game to be better so they can play and enjoy the game. no mmo is perfect. i've been playing mmo since 2006, i don't have a main game, i jump from one mmo from another. there are good and bad stuff in mmos. for an example, i enjoy BDO more than any mmo atm not because the game is perfect, i like BDO because the flashy combat, if people say BDO is P2W i agree with them, i want the devs listen to them so they can fix the game and make it better.
to be fair it depends on the critisicm, if someone makes comments about certain game direction choices that could be boiled down to, maybe the game just not quite being the game for them. and thats fair. it can happen. and nothing is ever perfect. But if the critism boils down to. only degenerate weirdoes like this game and anything like it. wich for a while was a very common meme response to plenty of things that look even remotely close to anime in style. you sort of build up a persecution complex/ resentment
I used to make MMO content of RS3 on another channel, I never grew to be a big channel. Dont think I will ever try again because it is hard to be MMO content creator. If you're specialized, you usually need to be on top of everything happening in game and I dont have interest of spending 15 hours a day on different MMOs to keep up with them if doing several different ones.
My dumb ass was trying to figure out why The Lazy Peon sounded so much like Josh because I forgot he said Peon replied on text. Good job on the video btw
This channel is the most valuable I follow, it brings me so much knowledge and entertainment. Those essays could easily be sellable considering the quality and depth. Good fucking job.
This video could perfectly be considered a Master's degree thesis on digital era communication. You are a godsend Josh, congratulations and thank you for your effort.
fake news, this video can basically be summed up as a bunch of people who play videogames for a living complaining that "reeee the players suck, boo everyone who criticizes me!!"
Being a content creator in itself is hard unless you catch a huge break. The work isn't the true hard part... it's putting in years of work for 2 views, 1 comment and 0 viewers in your stream. In essence, if there was community behind content creators we could all eat, but unfortunately, it's very hard for anyone new to break through the simple barrier to entry. I plan to start creating content again, but how much longer can I mentally survive seeing my videos with no views? No one joining my stream? Or 1 person joining the stream and not leaving any feedback as to why they're leaving instead of watching, etc.
This video is beyond just work, it genuinely feels like a work of love. Thank you for making this kind of thing. I hope everyone watches this, or at least skims through it, to gain some kind of understanding and respect for it.
What makes MMO content creators so special for me is also the reason why MMOs and being a content creator for them can suck some times - it's that something being difficult/rare has a different meaning in MMOs. Everyone can agree that souls bosses are difficult but everyone still beats them. However if everyone in a MMO could beat a boss/dungeon then no one would say it's difficult. Similarly with items, people can agree it's hard to get a rare item in other games, but you still get it. However in an MMO, no one would say an item is "rare" if everyone has it, no matter how hard it is to get it. So being a content creator you're forcing yourself into that 0.X% of top players, making sure you can do things that other people can't - no matter how grindy, difficult, or frustrating it is.
But that's part of the point of the video, you don't need to force yourself into the top 0.X% of players to make content. Hell, you could even rely on "interviewing" the people actually in the top 0.X% and have content that's relevant to hardcore players without being hardcore yourself.
@@Sangheilitat117 Wow gz pro 1337 gamer, guess you live under a rock because souls games have been the standard for challenging/fun in the industry for 5+ years now for the average player. All I'm saying is that MMOs by nature are forced to break.
@@BobSmith-vu3zm You’ve got me wrong. I’m saying that your “everyone still beats them” argument is very provably wrong. For example, only 33% of the Elden Ring playerbase has ever beat Malenia, and only 75% have ever beaten Margit. People absolutely do get walled by various souls bosses throughout the series and quit the game. I’ve got buddies that have gotten walled and quit by Rennala, Genichiro, and Orstein and Smough just off the top of my head.
Rage sums it up perfectly at 1:25:22 , this right here is what makes THE MMO, a MMO. Remove this concept from the game, and it no longer is a MMO. It’s sucks, but it’s always been about time spent = reward. Streamlining this removes a lot of the point of it being a MMO.
Awesome video - excellent insight and advice for people just now getting into the MMO content creation space. Similarly to MMOs I always felt it was ‘too late’ to jump into covering an MMO, but this video has definitely inspired me to soldier on. Great work Josh, cheers.
I miss the days when the communities would make awesome art like machinimas and parodies, especially in the WoW fandom but sadly it seems the muse has been silenced after everything the genre has been through.
Being critical of everything as a reviewer is important imo because every new players experience might be different and they may see different things or may be just as critical. Eventually if a player plays a game long enough they may experience the same things too unless it's that few obscure sidequests no one cares about. I enjoy the detailed reviews a lot but when you sometimes say "I forgot or didnt write anything down because I was having so much fun (or) because there was nothing new to add." Makes me go "huh cool" or "hmm" or "yey :D" when it comes to a game I've played and enjoyed or still do play and enjoy. P.s. from a viewers perspective on why I personally move on when a content creator tries to branch off from that niche game is because maybe they werent that entertaining of a person. Even tho I enjoyed watching them it was mostly because it was content for the game i am playing and that soothing voice or chill attitude (random examples) isnt enough to keep me invested in them as they play a game I dont give a crap about. I doubt this will even be read so idk why I made 3 paragraph/essay comments.
The part about builds and patches is extremely relevant with regular RPGs such as Wonderlands and Elden Ring, since builds are constantly having to be updated alongside any patches that Gearbox or FromSoftware want to implement in their games. Like Wonderlands was nerfed to the underworld awhile back and is still trying to work its way back to everyone's good grace.
I want to thank you for making this video. I've always considered game content creation(and mmo's especially) as something that seems like it would be a great fit, but I've always thought of it as a pipedream and put off taking it seriously or you know, actually creating content. Who knows if I stick with it, give up, blow up, or fizzle out, but I and I'm sure plenty of other new creators really appreciate the time and effort of gathering all this information, from all these sources, and giving honest perspectives on the reality of it. Like mentioned, it's already a small niche relatively speaking, so "meta" content about the actual process and pros and cons etc of content creation for it is even more rare to come by.
I think that if you want to do it, you should try. Just be realistic about the whole process. You cannot know the workload if you‘ve never made a script and edited a video, you cannot know whether anyone is interested in your ideas if you never put it out. Try it and expect nothing, that way every view and comment is something to be celebrated. Upload on a „whenever“ basis, because the algorithm won‘t be interested in you anyways. Do what YOU want WHEN you want, and just use TH-cam the way it was originally intended to: For self expression and creativity. And if it is no longer fun or fulfilling for you, make a short video on why you stopped, as a thank you to those who subscribed. Two or three minutes of a heart-to-heart. Being honest with yourself and your potential audience is, I think, super important for long-term mental health. This isn‘t a job, it‘s a hobby. And there is nothing wrong with that. ❤
You're the only MMO content creator of any kind that I watch. I just don't care too much to know much about MMOs in general, and it's hard to get into others that make this type of content. And even for YOU, I don't care to watch every video. I think there's an extremely high level of entry to get into MMO content on youtube. It always sucks to be that outside person when everyone else knows exactly what is being said.
Alright Josh, you've convinced me. Time to start covering MMOs, wish me luck!
edit: Reporting back in. They called me a filthy casual and corpse camped me for hours. Mission failed.
Sorry bro, that's just my F3 key macro
Finally, an accurate portrayal of new player experiences.
@@CyberneticArgumentCreator
that's very casual of you. My F4-F11 macros cover on how his life is miserable.
We'll get 'em next time.
You can start with Flyff universe its v new and with a decent community~
Thank you for having me on for this, Josh! Was a pleasure being a part of such a large undertaking!
Just a note, I'd like to see the full interviews uploaded somewhere if possible. Mostly just because I enjoy interview content, and think it would be worthwhile to see the more complete form of each creator's views.
Yes please!
Agree!
That would be very kind of you indeed.
Even if i am unlikely to listen to this myself i see it as a important resource for later content creators and researchers within the field if they had access to the full interviews.
I'd love this too. Would be a joy while I work
Josh you absolute Chad. Two hours of gold right here.
Haters
I absolutely love this video essay so far
Chef, you are the prime example of how the audience is the exact same people switching between similar/same content. i love that you are here but damn....josh hit the nail on the head with that one :) I'm curious how long you have been following him or mmo/game trends in general. PS: loved your anime expo food review!
@@katan1412 I've been up hid arse since he was around 25k subs haha
This guy over here playing with his food ;)
very true. back in 2009-2011 I played a game called runescape and put 1000s+ hours in and was big on youtube at that time, I was awkward in real life and video games were an escape from my reality especially mmo games. I haven't went back in over 7 years the best decision ive made. those games literally suck your soul and makes you miss out on life & self improvement. excellent video bro
Was great talking with you about these questions, thanks for the video and was great to hear everyone else's thoughts on the questions too :)
These topics don't come up enough!
I think a lot of this stuff can be very broadly applied to the larger content creation scene too. The way social media operates doesn't encourage content creators to make good content, rather it encourages creators to make as much content as fast as possible as relevant as possible (which naturally doesn't lend itself well to games as massive as MMOs). And without a large production team the obvious sacrifice is always going to be how substantive the content is and how well made the content is. The ultimate and logical conclusion of this is the react content meta, which has streamlined the production of relevant content to the point where it takes about the same time to create as it does to watch a video.
Another really important, the constant hostility towards criticism of our favourite games (particularly long term games like MMOs) is such a self destructive behaviour that I see almost every MMO community engage in. I think it's driven by a fear that a game might die and become irrelevant and must therefore be defended at all costs, however this ignores the fact that weird cult like behaviour scares players away and a refusal to engage in criticism ultimately makes games worse.
A great video and a great conversation, thanks a lot for having me on!
I used to watch your Podcast back in 2014/2015 when you guys had Brazil over, Those were the days man, I loved watching your content.
@@XelaShade Brazil is still on you should check it out
@@llimbo9864 oh damn, it's been such a long time, I will thanks!
I don't agree. There are plenty of TH-cam content creators that deliver a big video every 6 months; example: Captain Disillusion. There are plenty of large channels that do a video every 2 weeks; example: Dude Perfect. And there are examples of those that do on average a video a month; example: Mark Rober. Just because the majority have a fast content pace doesn't mean you have to match it.
The main issue with MMO content is in the majority of MMO games the patches aren't expansive enough to warrant explaining. Take a game like Elden Ring, where the lore is so obtuse and complex people are still unpicking it months after the release. The same happens with Dark Souls and critically their expansions. When Elden Ring gets its first DLC we'll see the same weeks of videos trying to understand and breakdown the patch. MMO patches in contrast can be slightly more frequent, but aside from expansion drops are typically so lore/content light a single 10m video summarizing the content will do and sometimes this is even overkill. You don't need a 1hr+ summary on patch notes as a player, as you will already have read the patch notes and understood them if you're commited, so there is actually very little to make content on for the majority of patches.
Other game genres on TH-cam then diversify their content by doing different playthrough styles of games, with different builds or character choices or handicaps. MMOs at first glance seem ideal for this with their long progression arc meaning you can milk a lot of videos, but in reality why would someone watch a video of you doing it when they could do it themselves. People enjoy watching no hit Elden Ring playthroughs for example as it's a level they can't achieve, but by the very nature of MMOs the content is (in general) widely accesible. It's not a shock that MMO viewership peaks around world-first races to clear raids, or in big tournaments because the players are playing on a level that the viewers can't match - so instead of just going and experiencing the content themselves they're watching it instead.
This then basically forces MMO content creators to make tutorial videos (How to get X, or how to gear for Y), critque videos (which are naturally going to be met with backlash, and regardless of the genre this is true), get early access to patches by building a dev relationship and rushing to be the first video on it, or rely and lean heavily on their personalities - and the sad truth is a lot of MMO content creators don't have engaging personalities to watch; and those that do make more money off of livestreams.
You don't see many MMO content creators because simply there is very little good content to make.
Here's a question: Why should I automatically respect you and your opinion, simply because you make videos on games? These content creators sound like they deserve respect. For what? It's the entertainment business. You don't deserve anything. Just because you think your opinion was genuine, doesn't mean everyone else has to show you respect. Then you go and dig for excuses as to why so-and-so person didn't give you the respect you think you're entitled to. You have a career out of giving your opinion, and nobody but you and your tribe of followers think you're deserving of respect from all mmo players. You're living in your own content creator bubble. And you can kick and scream and accuse certain playerbases of not behaving how you think they should, but that still doesn't change the fact that you're holding a halo over your head and pointing to it as if you're an unbiased source of information. People aren't as gullible as you accuse them of being.
Can't wait to watch Asmon react to Josh having a conversation with himself.
Asmon the YT mooch. lol
@@joelhodoborgas hey he adds to it, I find it more enjoyable to watch it with him commenting on it, and I rewatch stuff I’ve seen before if he reacts to its. he’s entertaining
@@limitbreak2966 He does add more than most react streamers yeah, but he's still a react streamer so ehh
@@joelhodoborgas I think with content creators that have a following based on their personality, reaction videos are genuinely their own content. Asmongold and Rease are perfect examples of this.
People are lonely and want to feel like someone is watching with them. Its why there is watch with channels. People are isolated and lonely and need to go out and make real friends.
As a veteran Lord of the Rings Online player with over 4000 hours in game, you hardcore ragebaited me with your Worst MMO Ever episode on it, and that video got me ADDICTED to your channel
I love every part of this comment :)
lmao i know this is sarcasm, still nice one
Hey, I resemble that remark! ;) Recent returnie...for like the 10th time lol! Been at it on & off since beta, but due to my alt-o-holism, only ever gotten a Warden to lvl 61. So, I couldn't resist the free Valar to 120 they gave us recently, so I rolled a Beorning & now having a blast with her :D. Just running around lower level zones, collecting mats on my war horse, smelling the roses, taking in the sights (OMG the sights!), has reminded me just how large & epic & beautiful the world is, even with the very old graphics engine. Imagine a total reboot in Unreal Engine 5...;) _drool_
I just returned to LOTRO a few days ago after Rings of Power looking completely terrible and his video also put it back in my memory so I guess I’m the opposite of you? i dunno really I’ve been addicted to josh’s videos for a while now
@@kyotheman69 Sarcasm where? o.O
I exclusively watch youtube creators who make interesting long form essay's about any topic. I don't care so long as you're good at presenting your topic. I don't know if I'm an outlier but this is how I found your channel and many others like it.
For me, anything that can be adequately explained in an under 10 minute video (excluding educational channels like vsauce and SciShow) just isn't that interesting.
For me, anything that can be adequately explained in an under 10 minute video (excluding educational channels like vsauce and SciShow) just isn't that interesting.
Yeah there's not very many of us relatively speaking.
Even fewer of us who like long-form videos that can be done is Audio Only
@@raesluder4260theirs many, hence the millions of views per video
@ChickenJoe-tq6xd So I have to say those of us who watch hour plus long videos are already a "small" audience relative to the majority. Then add the extra layer of watching an hour plus video about a subject I have no real history with and that becomes an even smaller minority.
Agree 100% with the comparisons of "general" vs "specialized".
I myself started finding success on Twitch/TH-cam as a Guild Wars 2 content creator, specializing in that one thing until I was doing it full time. After 7 thousand hours played, thousands of videos, and over a hundred guides for the game I started to burn out on playing just that one thing. I wanted more.
Diversifying into other content at that point was difficult. I wanted to do it for my sanity, and to keep my job fun, but at the same time it was a job and it paid my bills, so I had to find a balance of still making content for what I had specialized in for so long, and also content breaking into new areas.
I have a good balance going now that I'm happy with but just wanted to say that my own experience totally backs what was said in this video.
Hey Mukluk, so glad to see you here, love your work and especially so glad you found your balance. Got back to the game after a 9 years hiatus- yeah EvE and Starcraft and fencing and stuff- thanks to people like you or our dear teapot. Had the occasion to speak to another content creator who nearly burnt themselves while doing Magic Arena stuff and yeah it seems freaking hard to endure. And dealing with the toxic part of each community, oh boy, time out! Cheers and yeah scrapper all the way
Have to admit i was thinking about you for that segment. You did it also quite smartly. You transitioned slowly and smoothly to more diversified content and probably avoided quite some of the shock when specialized creators switch their games too abruptly.
Mukluk!, glad to see you here in the new Josh Strifes video ^^
any game can burn you out when you play it a lot
MY MAN MUKLUK!!!!!!!!
As a mabinogi content creator primarily, I've just accepted that it's a pretty niche community and I should not expect large view counts or massive growth from it. BUT in sticking to my guns and creating content for this games community I've still had many opportunities given to channels MUCH larger, like being flown out to collaborate with the Nexon team at events, sponsored support for videos, shout outs on social media and more! Its not easy but I really do think it can be rewarding to produce content for MMO's even if its something kinda niche.
that's exactly the mindset you should have. keep doing it because you enjoy it and for the interactions it affords you
Respect. Loved Mabi, still in my top 3.
I spent my high school years playing mabinogi and I had a fun time. However it was mostly because of the friends I was playing with. It's good to see someone keep the game alive through their content.
I miss Mabinogi the same way an old coke fiend misses crack. It's power still lingers within me, but I can't go back to it since there's nothing there for me anymore. It'd feel like going to a bar you haven't been in for decades and seeing nobody you recognize or relate to. Feelsbadman.
Ah, man. Maginobi had some of the best ideas and so many mechanics that were fundamentally great and no one else had, though had subpar to mediocre execution/integration. Were I to pick one existing mmo to improve, it would probably be that one.
Respect.
Getting this insight into the minds of the largest creators in the space is really appreciated, and super encouraging to us smaller guys! Thank you for putting this together
You make great videos, keep up the good work!
Your gw2 content is top notch mate! Cheers!
@@deeliriyum Thanks so much dude! I really appreciate it!
@@IMidgetManI Chers dude! As long as there is GW2 news to cover, I will be there to cover it XD
Ah, I was thinking of forwarding this to you, and here you are :D - something something about might and tea
As a previous MMO content creator, this was fun to listen to. Thanks for putting this together.
ah yes, TheHiveLeader o7
Content creator is the most sterile soulless term I’ve ever heard, I hope people come up a better name.
@@thrillhouse4151 as a content creator i couldnt agree more.
How I miss The Hive Leader’s content
Ah TheHiveLeader!
When someone says "It gets better after X hours", you have to ask them back "Is it Stockholm syndrome or sunk cost fallacy?"
I had this exact problem for FFXIV, I didnt know, but after doing a big 10 hours or so of the beginning I was really bored, then look on forum, oh but the game is "incredible" after 30.. I felt scammed because its just a big gatekeeping with sucky low level stuff
@@siyano Never understood this for FFXIV, I thought it was pretty good at the start, it obviously got better but started pretty well imo
FFXIV simply improves over time, because the dev team improved over time. It starts out ok, but not great, because they were rushing really hard to re-release the game after 1.0 nearly destroyed the franchise. 2.0 is fine for an old MMO. 6.0 still made me emotional on my third playthrough.
Or you know it actually does? Same way a tv show can have highs and lows a video game can.
I feel like Josh is that one guy in the overall MMO community who’s pretty much friends with every other major content creator in the space, and the fact he was able to get 14 different perspectives on this ranging from Asmon being like 60% reaction and 40% WoW at this point to Callum specializing exclusively in the fabled world of “scam mmos” just proves that theory
I think he's just widely respected in the community. Which he has very much earned.
Mmo = massively multi-player online
Mmos = massively manipulative online scam
it's more an observable fact than a theory but yeah, he is indeed well connected to the creator community.
I don't trust anyone who's that friendly with everyone, Josh has some skeletons somewhere. (And he used/uses Asmon as much as he can to get more views, scummy, but works)
How generous of you to say Asmon is ONLY 60% reaction. We all know that number is much higher.
I feel like this is a video that I'm going to keep coming back to over time. There is a lot of great information in here for anyone currently doing MMO content creation or anyone considering jumping into it. As always, thanks for the awesome content Josh :)
Hey it`s Csaw or Chris!! o/
@@Ryan-kg7hu LOL took the words right outta my mouth!!
Oh hey I recognize your channel
Love your stuff, Csaw
Haha, hello o/
My MMO of choice for the last 14 years has been WOW. Recently I invited my friend to check it out. He played for like 2 hours and has never played it since. Many, even the most established MMOs have terribe (i.e. boring) onboarding process, thus bad new player retention.
Same experience in WoW classic for me. Literally my favourite game of all time. They quit the moment they got to Orgrimmar city.
I was an EQ2 player for years, I barely got to endgame in burning crusade before the thought of logging into wow was akin to wanting a nap on my keyboard.
The novelty of playing in a massive, open world full of players that was so compelling in 2004 is long gone. Now the new player experience has to be much more compelling. Exile's Reach is good, but once you're done WoW drops you in BFA and the Alliance side of BFA is pretty dull.
Try gw2. They have good onboarding and many people also in beginner zones
The entry cost to get to the fun in wow is just too high. It's objectively not fun early game. Everything is very outdated by today's standards. The way they could improve it would be to give levels, skills, mounts and flying, lfr leveling raids, more end game style dungeons early on etc. It's just such a big gap in content quality. Either make new leveling content, update the old or just throw players into the new expansion directly and scale their stats while they gain levels and skills rapidly to catch up.
Dude you must've put so much time into this! Champion and thanks for the hard work!
Really well done Interview and great variety of guests here. Time investment does always come into play here, especially when comparing to FPS games or quick match style games. 2 Hours for an FPS player can be more than enough to feel accomplished for the day, whereas the MMO player 2 hours could only be the halfway point of something. The learning curve is more difficult as well and having to always keep up.
I do relate to the specialized and loyalty side of the argument as a recent content creator myself, having played since the original GW. I enjoy the game and I am ok with what it is and provides. Is it frustrating when the game isn't what you want it to be? Sure but you're not going to find everything in one game, and I think a lot of players who have good criticism and DO want change, often times it can lead to major burnout or even flat out never returning. I genuinely enjoy the game I picked and while I know the risks of being a one game creator, I would still pick GW again as the game I started content for.
MMO's go through many changes over the years, a game now can be very different from what it was on release. Compare this to RPG games where the major changes are not in the same game but the sequel. Same with FPS, there may be changes to how a weapon deals damage or map spawns etc, but that does not fundamentally change the whole game. It's more of a class build update, whereas MMO's a change in direction could mean a change in the content actually produced going forward.
There is honestly a lot of points to talk about, just wanted to comment on those two points in the video, as I recently discussed this with a friend who only plays FPS games.
Great job and would love to see the full release to be honest. The MMO discussion is a sensitive topic and it can get sour for many people, but this video addressing some of the fundamental issues is very important
I haven't seen a single MMO game that I actually thought was worth playing. That's why for me.
We all deserve to be loved like how Josh Strife Loved MMO's. His journey from early works on Neverwinter to where he is today. The shameless pay to win culture of his beloved games and yet he endures. ❤️
If you are the real Josh I watched all your videos on my second monitor and think you're the best. 🤗
Right. Which is why most of his vids are titled "Worst MMO Ever?"...imo he needs to play more, talk less. ;)
@@Nostromo2144 They're named that because it's a video series, you dingus. He plays plenty. That's why his breakdowns are accurate, widely watched, and well received. I have a strong feeling he insulted a game you like and you're buttmad.
@@vinchinzo594 Ding ding ding! Probably Tera and it's time for another loop video. 12 minutes, quick, shoot the messenger?
@@Nostromo2144 I'm sorry he killed "insert name of whatever bad MMO you play" I hope you will get over it some day.
@@Nostromo2144 Maybe if you watched the videos instead of immediately having a childish response to the title of his series, you would actually realize that he doesn't consider many of them bad games at all. He honestly critiques the games and often praises a lot of the games heavily for what they do right. Hell this comment alone shows you haven't even watched the video you left the comment on.
Asmongold is no longer a MMO content creator, he is a professional video reactions machine and Jhonny vs Heard expert.
this
True and real
keep malding and crying about it.
@@yourakunt4909 get your weird ass out of his comments.
@@yourakunt4909 Seems like that’s you in denial.
I loved seeing the different perspectives on this, especially when they kind of reinforced what the others were saying with their own experiences. You are an absolute content genius.
Honestly would love to here 7 hours of JoshStrife interviews.
Hey Josh! Thanks for this video. I am a starting MMO Content creator myself for the spanish speaking audience and your insights were incredibly helpful.
I talk to a lot of MMO only players and their scope and vision of gaming in general is tiny. They have no clue what gaming as a whole so basic things like a good UI seems so foreign to them its weird to me.
Josh been watching you since few thousand subs. You never cease to astound me, great interviewer, community advocate, dry wit. Seriously true sigma male grindset.
okay I forgot lazypeon's parts had to be read in so when his part came up I was like "damn this guy sounds exactly like Josh"
damn idk what about Nerdslayer's voice but I could listen to him talk about video games at length he has a very soothing voice
As someone who only recently got into mmos with lost ark and ffxiv 100 hours now definitely feels way less substantial than it did before, when I think about where I was in both games at the 100 hour mark, I wasn't even in Heavensward yet in ffxiv and for lost ark I wasn't even in tier 3 yet at the 100 hour mark which for a lot of people is where the game really starts
LMAO SAME. IT REALLY TRIPPED ME UP
Prob is lost ark is time gated. Ff14, ESO, GW2 etc u just play all day long and make progress
Yes nerdslayer has one of the best voices of the bunch and btw he has a podcast called 6 pixels under where he has dozens and dozens of hours of content if you want.
I knew it wasn't him but missed where he said he had to read his...I was so confused 🤣 thank you
I did have to check whether it was LazyPeon or Josh talking nearly every time. Probably should have used a slight radio filter to make it clear he is reading his comments, especially since most people will only listen to the video and miss the name on screen. Not a big deal, but if he does another video like this hopefully he'll rectify that.
I often forget that Asmongold used to be an actual creator instead of a full time content thief.
Hey josh, thank you for all the free content. Been having a blast watching them
Josh, I applaud you for gathering the content creators and making this video. A lot of MMO players don’t understand the struggle of content creation in this genre and I truly appreciate you making this video. Mad respect to you and the other creators!!
Yes, it is really struggle sitting on your ass and play video games.
well most mmorpg players are casuals thats why, they only play a game so much, most cases move on when they get bored, only small percent are hardcore
What it boils down to (To my understanding) is don't pick up an MMO and think it's going to be your day job. People want to hear from other people that are as passionate about their game as they are. On top of that, people forget that people (such as yourself) are not paid to play video games, they are paid for their entertainment value and personality (which some people forget is just a persona, and try to get on webcam and just 'be themselves' and get nowhere, but that's a different discussion) - the video game is just the mutual interest. Coming into the gaming TH-cam/Twitch ecosystem with the idea of making money off of playing a game is working in the wrong way. There are a ton of people that have put in very real and hard work and went nowhere in gaming entertainment, but in the same regard, the best way to peel a banana is from the bottom.
Just want to say I love your commitment to the bit of keeping all your supporters' names on one page. Every time you squish more names onto that screen you gain power.
This is peak first monitor content. Thank you for your work!
I think by playing the same game for hundreds of hours, people conditionalize themselves to only like a specific take on the implementation of a system, and the moment a game presents essentially the same system but through different lenses people simply reject it saying it's bad.
Addressing the "it gets better after X happens": of course there can be more than those X hours to a game, and while albeit it could be more quality content, it doesn't take into account the most essential resource people do(n't) have: time. Time investment is objectively subjective. Criticism towards people who are not willing to invest as much, even though it's a bad experience for them, is bull.
I find "Should you play X?@1" and "My first impressions on X@2" extremely valuable given @1 is a generalized overview on the whole game(which will indeed take more work for the creator) and @2 is titled appropriately to manage expectations. There's a plethora of games on the market I could be playing. Instead of suffering though 80 hours of pain, I would rather play 4-5 good games
and make good use of my time.
People are obviously different. While "the customer is (almost) always right", I genuinely believe there is a lot the audience can do better; from criticising a game or a content creator just for having a different opinion, containing threats(!!!) to other people, to understanding that they're not the centre of the universe.
Thanks Josh and to the other content creators, you're precious.
The whole "It's better in the endgame" argument sounds so stupid like if you even ask the person "okay, when is the endgame?" and they respond with " Oh the endgame is like 50-1k hours in". Why TF would a person slave through 50+ hours of boring stuff to maybe enjoy the game?
Fantastic job, Josh. Really appreciate your attention to detail and depth in journalism. This is extremely high quality content.
Kudos.
fake news, this video can basically be summed up as a bunch of people who play videogames for a living complaining that "reeee the players suck, boo everyone who criticizes me!!"
no its not extremely high, its average, i can tell because i work at cnn
@@Impulse154 preach, asmongold is a loser irl soo he has to stay inside a game that is trash
@@franciscopereira5760 It is high quality, you can clearly see how much effort all of the creators put into this video. I can tell because I work at KCNA.
The Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) is the state news agency of North Korea. The agency portrays the views of the North Korean government for both domestic and foreign consumption. It was established on December 5, 1946, is superior to CNN, and now features online coverage.
@@franciscopereira5760 cnn is low quality garbage
I don't think the average MMO-Player rushes to endgame. It's more a hardcore-playerbase thing to do. Most players enjoy taking it their own pace, messing around, socialise and are not interested into raids and endgame. They like making progress, but they are not intested to be "pushed to their limits". Casuals are the majority.
“Oh you’re an author? Why haven’t you read every book?”
This was such a massive project, so thank you for taking the time to put this together. It's awesome to hear from so many different perspectives.
I found this video to be so relatable, I even jotted down my own thoughts about joshs list before watching and am glad that so many of my frustrations are shared by the larger successful creators, i.e. speed of release for views in lieu of quality. For all the other more niche mmo creators out there, keep hustling and doing what you love c:
I started playing ESO in February. My biggest complaint about it was that it was NOT beginner player friendly (in terms of where to start and what path to take). I met people who were so mad at this opinion but I see so many other new players have the same complaint. The cult-like mentality is definitely there. I lucked out and found a great guild but most players don't and it sucks.
What low value behavior
This isn't even a negative comment about the video itself but man this intro hit me like a truck when I realised how commonly being a youtuber is now talked about like it's a business or a career instead of a thing that you just do for fun. Times change I guess, but still...
youtube's been a job accessible for normal people since like, 2010. At least, that's when I started noticing it.
Hearing that Josh talked to Brozime, a known quantity in the Warframe community, and Nerdslayer, maker of the Death of a Game series, was a very welcome surprise.
Why is this a surprise?
@@chemicalhap I didn't expect that Josh had connections to Warframe content creators.
@@inquisitorichijou883 Brozime reacted to Josh's warframe video, and agreed with him on a lot of his points.
I assume that's probably how they came into connection.
@@lj_aderyn That sounds plausible.
I don't bite the first argument "there are not enough viewers".
We have very strong content creators for literally every game with a few thousand consecutive players on Steam.
Of course these are not Fortnite numbers.
MMO content creators are important cause they almost feel like the last bastion of what MMOs used to be - a large community of people wanting to experience many of the same things and being hyped on people achieving their goals. That has all but been lost for such a long time but experiencing chat lose their mind over Asmongold gaining a mount he's been trying for years to get is the same experience I had in Everquest when Fires of Heaven posted world first screenshots for the first time 20 years ago.
I really wanted to make WoW content focusing on world building and storytelling (as in, fictional stories in the game) and I was halfway through editing one when all the blizzard stuff went down. Kind of don't want to give more eyes to them even though warcraft was my love for 20 years, it's a shame though. I hope that game can recover but I have zero faith in the company either way.
...So about the MMO content creation, do you have a channel link? There hasn't been a single video uploaded on this channel in 5 years, of which maybe 2 or 3 are loosely related to MMOs. So I'm assuming you have a different channel?
So called content creators are one of the reason why MMO was ruined.
@@Kjetilstorm I meant I was in the process of starting one as everything with blizzard happened, it would have been under a new channel yes but at the moment it's just sitting there with nothing on it lol
@@petertrueteller8043 ...wow calm tf down.
@@petertrueteller8043 I would argue that content creators are the reason some MMOs still exist. "Ruined" implies that the game was somehow in a perfect state. Everyone pines for the good ole days, mostly because they've forgotten the problems of that time. MMOs now are not good/bad--they're just different, just like the ones back then were the same.
I feel so personally attacked....josh is so right...about being a hardcore player and how immersed you can get and the lines can blur between real life and virtual life...this video literally stopped me in my tracks....Im gonna go take a walk
Lol gotta touch that grass. It is such a good description, but is used to be so insulting that no one thinks about what it SHOULD mean. Reaffirming yourself in reality, so you don't get lost enjoying the game.
dude i felt the same way, i was playing warframe with this vid in a background and just went "wow this describes me and my crippling addiction to wf and valorant".
I think the trick as a gamer, is to learn to translate the competitive spirit to grind in game (PvE, PvP,), to real life, at least in some capacity. It does not work for everyone, of course, but "gamefying" my life has made me more productive, allowed me to pursue things in my life that i have forsaken because I wanted to grind 20 hrs in WoW. Me being the bestest gamer in the world does not give me a paycheck, wrecks my body, destroys all personal relationships, and obliterates my self worth. It works if you are a content creator or into esports (because you get paid) but for most of us plebs, who give a shit about being world's first lmao.
Now with a good job, improving health, and better mental health, I have naturally started to enjoy gaming again without forcing it.
I was baffled at the 100hs "requirement" for MMO reviews.
I've been playing MMOs for 20 years. I understand the level of investment required. 100hs don't even sound as a big number to me for even a standard player.
But, I've been listening to this video with my brain switched to "professional" mindset, instead of "MMO fan", and my brain immediately translated 100hs to 2.5 weeks of 8hs professional work days. That's insane to ask of this level of review! That pretty much means a single game reviewed per month (because I'd follow those 100 hours of gameplay with a demand of another week or so to write and produce a good review/video)
MMO reviews have almost never made much sense, especially since most are written based on Beta gameplay. They are outdated almost within the month of their release and are heavily skewed by short term problems like overloaded servers, hotfixes, rebalancing and introduction of new content. I owned the original WoW players guide and almost everything in it was wrong for the release version of the game.
Just a thought, but it may have been an idea to flag when you're reading The Lazy Peon's statements with an audio cue. That way the visually impaired would be less confused when you show up in the interviewee's statements (especially cause it's hard to tell whether you are or just introducing a new segment)
oh god how did i end up here the only mmo ive played is lego island
Finally watched it! Awesome video, made me have even more appreciation for the passion that content creators have despite all the difficulties. And it's another proof that success is driven by doing what you love. If not for your passion & stubbornness we wouldn't be able to watch this video :D Great job! (too bad the history-themed videos are not that popular, they are my favourite :c)
Another masterpiece.... you make crazy high quality content . Time I get on your patreon list!
Only Josh and LazyPeon are the big content creators I followed. But others like Asmon and MMObyte, I used to follow them but not anymore cuz they are more focused on dramas, rumors, Tweets, and other stressful things which sometimes had nothing to do with MMO. I miss the old MMO community tbh.
Lazy Peon sounds a lot like Josh.
@@Vince-tt1uj he did say at the start of the Lazy couldn’t make it but typed his replies to the questions he was asked by Josh.
@@katiaazizi Should have added /s at the end...
@@Vince-tt1uj which is why I like em both. They do criticize the games after they played it for amount of time compared to others like Asmon who sometimes giving impression to games even without playing it through rumors, game footages, and his community. Joshstrifehayes and LazyPeon's games/mmo reviews are my guidebooks before jumping on a game.
As a 1.0 FFXIV vet, the calling out of the FFXIV community is hitting the nail on the head. The FFXIV community can be incredibly toxic to any criticism of the game or Yoshida. Extreme toxic positivity.
The scope of this video is insane, But direly needed. Thank you to all the content creators who participated.
Edit: Lmaoo Zepla at 41:35
This is the edit I was looking for. That shit was funny.
We don't deserve this precious boy. At he start he says he wouldn't edit anyone's statements to alter their points, Zepla savages him in her interview, he responds saying he'll edit it out, sarcastically...and doesn't. What a treasure.
I forgot Josh was an actor but this video shows it really well. Being new to the channel and not knowing who The Lazy Peon is, every time his name pops up I thought "hold on, this is just Josh, what's going on? is this some sort of inside joke that I haven't discovered yet?" and only 1 hour and 30 mins in did I remember he said he was given the answers and he would read them out, this man reads a script so damn well I forgot he already told us he was going to just be reading TLP's answer
@bobi miiu I think you're using the wrong account mate, you can't break character while you're on the porn bot account
@@SupremeNoble okay this is funny XD made me chuckle
I always thought the dude dressed like he just came from a theater or play
@@SupremeNoble truly a "lmao" moment
Kudos to you for even remembering that. I completely forgot about it and kept being weirded out how they both have the same voice throughout the entire video 😮💨
I can't believe you guys were all in league with Bobby Kotick this whole time. Literally shaking right now from this terrifying truthbomb, I may never sleep again. 10/10, you magnificent bastards.
Josh is quickly becoming one of my most anticipated channels to look out for in my sub box. Even only 15 minutes in, it is such a good discussion of the topic that, as a side effect, made me check out other content creators I never heard of before as well.
I absolutely agree and i think the same actually. I found out his channel few days ago and have been exploring his videos. They are entertaining, funny, straight to the point and very informative. He brings up really great discussion points in alot of games and about the gaming community in general that need to be discussed from some perspectives. I highly respect him for that especially covering the MMO gaming community. I might as well check other content creators as well since they also seem interesting. LazyPeon being one of my favorites now.
Asmons response to toxicity seems a bit disingenuous since his content is designed to be very reactionary and polarizing because that’s what gets views. He hasn’t been “dealing with” toxicity, he’s been fostering it.
You can’t really be be shocked or say you’re dealing with toxicity when telling people to /spit on a group of players because they bought a stupid mount. Yeah, people are gonna get angry with you if you specifically attack them. That’s not buyers remorse that’s defending yourself.
I don’t think anything he said in this video was wrong, it just sounds like bullshit coming from him since he’s trying to get those reactions in his usual content.
You literally can't trust anything asmon says, he is the most disingenuous streamer out there.
Constantly claims to have a stance on one thing but does the complete opposite.
He has zero integrity.
He did that wooooow. That's dumb. A colleague of mine once told me about Fallout 76 having some sort of premium account or whatever and he was so excited that people online tried to dox them, gank them and make them feel miserable for paying something extra. I never got behind why you would do it. Asmo seems to be partly in the same category of person.
Wow. Thanks to Josh and to everyone who provided interview answers!
I love how so many of Zepla's answers are just the epitome of " deeply enfranchised FFXIV players".
Everyone: "Yeah a 100 hours really isn't a realistic amount of time to put into reviewing a single game, though you should be upfront and contextual about your review."
Zepla:"100 hours isn't near enough time to review FFXIV. You have to read all the dialogue and reached current endgame before even THINKING about making a review"
Funny and very in character lol
almost like all the discussions about people who are too entrenched into their game was about her
44:49 As a God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals, this made me feel a lil warm on the heart 😆 and Josh's clip channel has a video of just my character, "Guild Wars 1 is strange" which cracks me up
Praise Joko!
Josh. Bruh. That Warcraft comment on the end hit hard. I feel extremely entertained and attacked.
As a MMO enthusiast, and WoW mainer - I know that deadened expression of realization. I am that deadened expression of realization.
Honestly, I think one of the most challenging parts about hearing the "You didn't play long enough" complaint is that your perspective on certain things often changes with hindsight. Speaking from my experience basically only playing FFXIV as far as MMOs are concerned, things I enjoyed when playing A Realm Reborn feel different now that I'm in Stormblood. I started as Black Mage and really enjoyed balancing the two stances and seeing the big damage numbers. But now when I'm synced down to those early levels, it feels off because I'm missing some of my later skills that have become a part of my rotation. I didn't feel their absence before I reached the higher levels, though, I just enjoyed it. The same thing happened with me with the story. Aside from a few weird hiccups, I really enjoyed A Realm Reborn's MSQ content, which is widely considered within the community to be substandard. In Stormblood now, I'm seeing why that part of the story is so criticized. The successive storylines really are just that much better. I didn't know this at the time.
Luckily the story of stormblood picks up near the end of it, but yeah it feels very sluggish before that, so please, try to survive :D
@@soldierorsomething Oh, I'm pretty far into it. Just finished the event with the Xaela on the Azim Steppe, which has been my favorite bit of the game so far.
I think some changes in the game are not for the better. I did not enjoy SB precisely because I felt we really didn't see as much of certain areas as I had hoped.
There are things from ARR and HW that I miss honestly.
@@melissas4874 I am in the first 5-10 hours of SB and I already missed HW, it is quality mmo storytelling.
@@HikariKobayashi you are gonna love the 4.x story. the story becomes so much more interesting.
You know what I wanna do? Make a weekly series about a “traveler” character who travels between various MMOs. They experience an MMO for a few weeks and move on to the next MMO when they get tired of it. That way they don’t tread on the hardcore audience’s toes because their entire schtick is they don’t stick around, and the character of the Traveler is what connects the audience through each particular game. It doesn’t have to be logical which order of MMOs the Traveler passes through, the point is the journey not the destination. And if the Traveler becomes enamored of a particular game and sticks around for a while, perhaps they “settle down” for a while until they finally are satisfied and become ready to move on.
Dude I would totally watch that it sounds awesome
Wait that actually sounds very interesting. Would def tune in
Iirc there used to be a Tv show kind of like that. On G4 I believe. I barely remember anything about it but there was a live host that contacted characters that lived in various game worlds. I think one was a crybaby badger person from... I think it was Everquest but I really don't know.
@@Grinnerz1 one of the most often shown characters was the drifter and they made him in many mmo's but often being in Asheron's Call. I believe the show was called Portal. I guess the difference in idea's is a single character travelling mmorpg's like a multiverse and knowing each world is different rather than treating each mmo as a single shared world.
I do miss the show but wish it was more on that Drifter character
Thats similar to what I was attempting to do. I play an mmo for a month and go onto the next sometimes returning though in more of a review for casual players who don't want to dive deep into a certain mmo.
Who are you and are you me but slightly different? lol
The reason I dont play MMOs from a former regular player, itemized :
1. "The armor you want is from 6 years ago and no longer available. You will literally never be able to get it no matter what, but the content is still taking up space on your hard drive."
2. "Btw, while youre thinking about armor, try the cash shop. Here. Buy our premium currency in intentionally uneven amounts because of incredibly predatory practices"
3. Endgame / endgame items are all locked behind PvP when entire game can be played PvE up til that wall.
4. "I really think you should buy something form the cash shop. Are you *sure*? Heres a popup anytime you log in, or forcing you to return to an in-world premium-item location frequently"
5. Balance updates aimed only at making the game more difficult for hardcore 'lifers' instead of made more fun for most people, effectively gating large amounts of content.
6. Bots.
7. Plleeeeeeeeeeaaaasee buy something, heres a coupon. No? Are you serious? Heres a better coupon. Cmon, theres limited items now. Please just be reasonable.
8. Graveyarded after only a few years, dev moves on when the game makes any less than "a bazillions of dollars"
Yes these points are a little goofy but if there were ever a reason I quit an mmo it was because of one of those.
_MMO Graveyard_: (Not all are classically considered mmorpg's as the genre goes, but these are the MMO type games Ive played and had to quit for one of the above reasons.)
-#TabulaRasa - Graveyarded
=#Warframe - advertisements, constant constant advertisements. MTX currency is tradable making real money foundational in the game's economy
-#FF14 - this one is odd, it was actually players trying to advertise the game at any opportunity trying to hook people by quoting the free trial thing over and over
=#Runescape - (I consider this a Massively-SINGLEPLAYER-online because when do you actually do things with others), ->bots bots bots bots
-#Destiny2 - Microtransactions, PVP Gated content, really powerful older content made unaccessible behind seasons
=#EliteDangerous - (See, Runescape note) This is actually a very interesting one. Am a 120$ tier beta-backer from their kickstarter and backed it in part because I was promised there'd be no paid DLC (spoiler, there is), but that premium-beta-backer players would get all future DLC for free. So that didnt happen, I called in and got a company representative to confirm that I would be given all future DLC for free, only for another helpdesk to recant on that and refuse to do the right thing. Like a 5 year player told "Well you could wait for a sale if you want horizons".
In addition, the game focuses a lot of its update space on little MTX dashboard bobbleheads or ship skins, there were beta exploits where players could just get absolutely insane amounts of money and while those methods are gone- the players still have the cash and power associated with it. Lastly, the powerplay and faction ownership of a system are entirely at the whim of sleepless redditors who will defy any casual-friend-group's attempt to do anything interesting, planets or systems changing ownership are really the only selling point the game has, which applies to both the power play and superpower faction borders.
It seems to be very soon to be graveyarded, Frontier seems far more interested in making planet coaster (note : You cannot visit or find planet coaster in elite dangerous), I dont think they understand that developing for and upkeeping an MMO is a job that needs huge amounts of care and focus. I dont see that from Frontier.
I backed them on their kickstarter and they burned me for it, how do you think they regard the regular player?
-#Maplestory - mtx adverts, bots, time gated armor
=#Fallout76 - oh no, I think Im underqualified to discuss FO76 with all the other media out there on it.
-#Firefall - :( graveyarded, rest in peace
=#GlobalAgenda - Graveyarded so the devs could chase the bazillions of dollars MTX farm
Gee, do I have beef with how frontier handled my account, its a mystery ~
You really can tell which game hurt the most to let go in terms of investment / watching the game change from something I loved to something I hate.
The amount of effot that goes into the nuisances of this MMO vid is really good. Very thought provoking and should watch by all veterans in the genre. Awesome!
I think you mean nuances lol
@@lemonlupinreuben5362 oh yep lol
@@miqotesoulia8620 LOL oh man that made me laugh, props to you for keeping the original spelling. I do this all the time so it made me laugh extra hard.
Thanks! It was a good listen. Great to hear from several different creators.
I've never understood the mmo content creator cliche of rushing to end game as quickly as humanly possible and focusing on that
This may not be possible, but as a follow-up to this video would you be willing to do some sort of guide about what goes into the actual creation of a video from the lens of an MMO content creator. Quick look at editing, scripting, how you pick background footage, etc.
I there is demand for something like that I would love to see it.
Hearing that one comment from that one guy (sorry I forgot his name) who mentioned how the FF14 fans are pretty toxic without meaning to made me realize that yea, they kind of are in a way. I myself being apart of that in some sense. Made me reevaluate myself.
I love MMOByte ! Stix & Mrs. Stix are great, glad you got them in here !
Time investment can't be overstated. Recently started ESO. Barely touched FFXIV in a month.
This is a really interesting and well-made video.
I think another big factor is the attention span of younger gamers - apps like Tiktok demonstrate that so many people just want immediate entertainment and don't have the attention span to stick with one MMO for a long time.
I think Gen Z think that video games are for loosers or manchild boomers.
What Gen Z likes are pushing the narcism to the max, they seem to favor the most narcissists influencers.
@@birdbig6852 I don’t think that’s true. There’s probably a greater percentage chance of a Zoomer playing a game than any other generation. You’re not a loser for playing video games, although I think old-school games like isometric turn-based RPGs and MMOs are seen as nerdy still. Anything that takes a big time investment, or playing a game in a way that takes a lot of time is nerdy.
@@birdbig6852 Are you mad or frickin high? Young adults from the late 90s to the 2000s are one of the biggest consumers of games now. If then that group are drawn to the more generic or bader mainstream games such as Fortnite, Minecraft, COD or the likes is another discussion. but they play games more than every
Could also be a lot of people that try lots of the big mmo's dont enjoy the tab targeting style and move on. I personally get pretty bored of most MMO's as the combat gets really dull + its hard to find new people to play with online that arent already just friends in real life.
@@birdbig6852 My man, that's not a generational thing. It's what social media rewards and something that would have existed on any generation that had social media. Also, "Video games are for losers" was literally the default BEFORE Gen Z. Why the fuck would you conflate it with the one generation that's less likely to fall into that mindset? You don't seem reasonable at all, just spewing words like narcissist because you already decided that's the problem, when it's clear you're only looking at the examples that further your bias.
All I want to know from an MMO is if I can wander around aimlessly making friends.
Good emotes are important and a design that has players in and around early game zones
Or at least having a community that will chat during dungeons!
as much as I love hardcore endgame content, that's not where the majority of my time will be spent, even when I do get there
people at my work ask me what game i play and i say world of warcraft classic. their reply: what
This is very informative for upcoming MMO content creators! It gives a great insight on where to start and the current issues that comes with MMO content and how valuable time and experience can be for the majority of players.
Thanks for putting all of this together!
I'm not sure if I feel inspired by this...or depressed. This was fantastic though and I love seeing so many content creators I know and learning about new ones.
Excellent points and research as usual. Lots of things to think about.
You do great on EQ.
That ending, poor Josh is dreading the moment xD
Thank you and you guests for the interesting discussion regarding a beloved gaming genre, it was really interesting to hear the different perspective even more since I follow some of the guests and got to hear them answer the same question :D
Also, are there any videos/audios of the conversations available in another channel? Would be interested to hear the uncut versions.
I’m just gonna say, man, thanks for gathering all these people together in one video, it helps to expose them to the community. I didn’t even knew like more than half of these people before.
Was really interesting to listen to this group-therapy session. Thanks!
i hate when players being so defensive about their game.
if people critique the game doesn't mean they hate it or the game is unplayable garbage game, it means that those people want the game to be better so they can play and enjoy the game.
no mmo is perfect. i've been playing mmo since 2006, i don't have a main game, i jump from one mmo from another. there are good and bad stuff in mmos.
for an example, i enjoy BDO more than any mmo atm not because the game is perfect, i like BDO because the flashy combat, if people say BDO is P2W i agree with them, i want the devs listen to them so they can fix the game and make it better.
I agree, the "you cant review the game untill you havent finished the latest expansion story" argument was so dumb....
to be fair it depends on the critisicm, if someone makes comments about certain game direction choices that could be boiled down to, maybe the game just not quite being the game for them. and thats fair. it can happen. and nothing is ever perfect. But if the critism boils down to. only degenerate weirdoes like this game and anything like it. wich for a while was a very common meme response to plenty of things that look even remotely close to anime in style. you sort of build up a persecution complex/ resentment
I used to make MMO content of RS3 on another channel, I never grew to be a big channel. Dont think I will ever try again because it is hard to be MMO content creator. If you're specialized, you usually need to be on top of everything happening in game and I dont have interest of spending 15 hours a day on different MMOs to keep up with them if doing several different ones.
My dumb ass was trying to figure out why The Lazy Peon sounded so much like Josh because I forgot he said Peon replied on text. Good job on the video btw
This channel is the most valuable I follow, it brings me so much knowledge and entertainment. Those essays could easily be sellable considering the quality and depth. Good fucking job.
This video could perfectly be considered a Master's degree thesis on digital era communication. You are a godsend Josh, congratulations and thank you for your effort.
What the fuck hahahaha
fake news, this video can basically be summed up as a bunch of people who play videogames for a living complaining that "reeee the players suck, boo everyone who criticizes me!!"
Touch some grass dude, get out of the basement, you obviously have never read a masters level thesis in your life.
Being a content creator in itself is hard unless you catch a huge break. The work isn't the true hard part... it's putting in years of work for 2 views, 1 comment and 0 viewers in your stream. In essence, if there was community behind content creators we could all eat, but unfortunately, it's very hard for anyone new to break through the simple barrier to entry.
I plan to start creating content again, but how much longer can I mentally survive seeing my videos with no views? No one joining my stream? Or 1 person joining the stream and not leaving any feedback as to why they're leaving instead of watching, etc.
This video is beyond just work, it genuinely feels like a work of love. Thank you for making this kind of thing. I hope everyone watches this, or at least skims through it, to gain some kind of understanding and respect for it.
What makes MMO content creators so special for me is also the reason why MMOs and being a content creator for them can suck some times - it's that something being difficult/rare has a different meaning in MMOs. Everyone can agree that souls bosses are difficult but everyone still beats them. However if everyone in a MMO could beat a boss/dungeon then no one would say it's difficult. Similarly with items, people can agree it's hard to get a rare item in other games, but you still get it. However in an MMO, no one would say an item is "rare" if everyone has it, no matter how hard it is to get it. So being a content creator you're forcing yourself into that 0.X% of top players, making sure you can do things that other people can't - no matter how grindy, difficult, or frustrating it is.
“Everyone can agree that souls bosses are difficult but everyone still beats them”
You got me to laugh, congrats
But that's part of the point of the video, you don't need to force yourself into the top 0.X% of players to make content. Hell, you could even rely on "interviewing" the people actually in the top 0.X% and have content that's relevant to hardcore players without being hardcore yourself.
@@Sangheilitat117 Wow gz pro 1337 gamer, guess you live under a rock because souls games have been the standard for challenging/fun in the industry for 5+ years now for the average player. All I'm saying is that MMOs by nature are forced to break.
@@BobSmith-vu3zm You’ve got me wrong. I’m saying that your “everyone still beats them” argument is very provably wrong. For example, only 33% of the Elden Ring playerbase has ever beat Malenia, and only 75% have ever beaten Margit. People absolutely do get walled by various souls bosses throughout the series and quit the game. I’ve got buddies that have gotten walled and quit by Rennala, Genichiro, and Orstein and Smough just off the top of my head.
Rage sums it up perfectly at 1:25:22 , this right here is what makes THE MMO, a MMO. Remove this concept from the game, and it no longer is a MMO. It’s sucks, but it’s always been about time spent = reward. Streamlining this removes a lot of the point of it being a MMO.
Awesome video - excellent insight and advice for people just now getting into the MMO content creation space. Similarly to MMOs I always felt it was ‘too late’ to jump into covering an MMO, but this video has definitely inspired me to soldier on. Great work Josh, cheers.
I miss the days when the communities would make awesome art like machinimas and parodies, especially in the WoW fandom but sadly it seems the muse has been silenced after everything the genre has been through.
Even Let’s Play felt genuine during their golden time, ahhh…time flies, huh? For better or worse, really.
Being critical of everything as a reviewer is important imo because every new players experience might be different and they may see different things or may be just as critical. Eventually if a player plays a game long enough they may experience the same things too unless it's that few obscure sidequests no one cares about. I enjoy the detailed reviews a lot but when you sometimes say "I forgot or didnt write anything down because I was having so much fun (or) because there was nothing new to add." Makes me go "huh cool" or "hmm" or "yey :D" when it comes to a game I've played and enjoyed or still do play and enjoy. P.s. from a viewers perspective on why I personally move on when a content creator tries to branch off from that niche game is because maybe they werent that entertaining of a person. Even tho I enjoyed watching them it was mostly because it was content for the game i am playing and that soothing voice or chill attitude (random examples) isnt enough to keep me invested in them as they play a game I dont give a crap about. I doubt this will even be read so idk why I made 3 paragraph/essay comments.
The part about builds and patches is extremely relevant with regular RPGs such as Wonderlands and Elden Ring, since builds are constantly having to be updated alongside any patches that Gearbox or FromSoftware want to implement in their games. Like Wonderlands was nerfed to the underworld awhile back and is still trying to work its way back to everyone's good grace.
I want to thank you for making this video. I've always considered game content creation(and mmo's especially) as something that seems like it would be a great fit, but I've always thought of it as a pipedream and put off taking it seriously or you know, actually creating content.
Who knows if I stick with it, give up, blow up, or fizzle out, but I and I'm sure plenty of other new creators really appreciate the time and effort of gathering all this information, from all these sources, and giving honest perspectives on the reality of it. Like mentioned, it's already a small niche relatively speaking, so "meta" content about the actual process and pros and cons etc of content creation for it is even more rare to come by.
I think that if you want to do it, you should try. Just be realistic about the whole process. You cannot know the workload if you‘ve never made a script and edited a video, you cannot know whether anyone is interested in your ideas if you never put it out.
Try it and expect nothing, that way every view and comment is something to be celebrated. Upload on a „whenever“ basis, because the algorithm won‘t be interested in you anyways. Do what YOU want WHEN you want, and just use TH-cam the way it was originally intended to: For self expression and creativity.
And if it is no longer fun or fulfilling for you, make a short video on why you stopped, as a thank you to those who subscribed. Two or three minutes of a heart-to-heart. Being honest with yourself and your potential audience is, I think, super important for long-term mental health. This isn‘t a job, it‘s a hobby. And there is nothing wrong with that. ❤
Just finished this video. Your an absolute legend for covering this topic.
It’s interesting how most points discussed on the video applies almost perfectly to fighting games genre.
You're the only MMO content creator of any kind that I watch. I just don't care too much to know much about MMOs in general, and it's hard to get into others that make this type of content. And even for YOU, I don't care to watch every video.
I think there's an extremely high level of entry to get into MMO content on youtube. It always sucks to be that outside person when everyone else knows exactly what is being said.
I’m getting there Josh don’t worry!
Great video Josh, this helps confirm to me that I want to continue branching out in the MMO space as a more general creator.
Yeah I actually think your content is great but ESO just aint it for me. I hope to see you cover more MMOs.
@@PingWhisper well now he doesn't do gaming at all