The Orchard Music vs FFSTV
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2024
- We have just made our first APPEAL via the TH-cam copyright system, which opens us up to legal proceedings all thanks to the flagrant claims made by The Orchard Music in bad faith.
The Orchard Music is by FAR the worst perpetrator (in our experience) of bad faith copyright claims on TH-cam. The following videos have had matches applied to them, which we have disputed and the claims have been subsequently REINSTATED:
Skylanders Trap Team Trailer:
Video: • Skylanders Trap Team T...
Claim: / 518204763746631680
Electronic Arts E3 2014 Press Conference:
Video: www.youtube.co...
Claim: / 525026119175901184
Destiny Launch Trailer:
Video: • Destiny Launch Trailer...
Claim: / 518215918074490880
Appeal: / 525022038680166400
We have appeals ONE of the THREE bad faith reinstatements because appealing all three at once would give The Orchard Music the ability to apply three strikes to our account, effectively shutting it down. Considering their behaviour thus far, it is easy to see that as a possible scenario.
Here is an article that lists some of the worst copyright trolls including The Orchard Music: fairusetube.org...
Follow us here in case all this goes REAL bad:
Twitter: twitter.com/ffstv
Facebook: facebook.com/AwesomeVideoGames
Website: videogamesawesome.com/
Personal TH-cam Account: th-cam.com/users/fraseragar
For future references to ongoing problem... fairusetube.org/youtube-copyfraud
Have you thought of maybe trying to see if you can get other youtubers to talk about this issue? Your issue at hand or just bull claims in general. Maybe turning this into something big will cause youtube or Orchard to do something, I know TotalBiscuit loves bringing this kind of bullshit to light.
You Ruthless E-Sweet Thang YOU :)
I found this group of people discussing having the exact same issue with The Orchard. One of whom got flagged for a documentary which they own apparently. I thought you might be interested.
productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/youtube/aVZ_dp7Ikt4%5B1-25-false%5D
dudemic I have since found two more relevant links. This one has a series of links at 6. on the page link to people who have had problems with The Orchard. fairusetube.org/youtube-copyfraud
The second has a post from The Orchard themselves stating that they do not intend to pursue legal action on these claims most of the time and that if you dispute them it should be resolved and to just be patient. That is obviously not what they're doing. These links aren't exactly recent but it certainly shows how long they have been pulling this. www.dailyrindblog.com/youtube-copyright-claims/
@ 0:00 sums up my reaction. I watch your videos everyday, including your really old playthroughs. In the future, whatever happens... we WILL support you in anyway we can. I have so much respect for you Fraser, and the crew.
This is where all your pheonix wright training will come into play.
I went into my old youtube account, and the youtube bots had flagged 5 seconds of a fan running in one of my old videos saying it matched some random song called "future" from them that I couldn't even find.
I appeal Orchard Music stuff literally every single week. They are god damn awful, but on the up side I have never lost an appeal. They are pushovers, but for sure do what they do in bad faith. They will claim the same song over and over on tons of videos, no matter how many times they drop the claim after I appeal.
TH-cam's system is absolutely broken. How can this be allowed?!
Wow, what a loophole. TH-cam really didn't think this through.
Edit: I support you all the way, Fraser, but I urge caution and a rational approach. You say you're a guy who's easy to push too far, and I believe it, which is why I say let cooler heads prevail. Don't let them push your buttons. Totally fight this, but with both eyes open, and both feet firmly planted. I believe in you!
***** Well, the loophole I was talking about was the fact you can only claim fair use _or_ ownership of content. There's no option that says something like "accusation incorrect", which is what's allowing Orchard Music to work the system against FFSTV.
I mean TH-cam has grown so big. You can't expect to have an un-loop-holey website
Hitori Samishiku No website is perfect, true, but something like this isn't that hard to predict. TH-cam either saw this coming and did what ***** said and played it way too safe, or they're really, really stupid.
You know what this has been pissing me off too. One of my most popular videos got claimed by Orchard Music and I disputed it and they were like "Nope this is ours haha" and now I can't dispute it anymore. I know I am just a little channel but I got hit and there is nothing I can do about it.
we'll support you Frash. Thanks for standing up for your right and principles.
You're becoming in a real Phoenix Wright. You've got this, we're here!
I hope you guys make it through this. I would hate to see you guys forced off youtube. However, you are doing the right thing, don't let this go without a fight!
The whole copyright thing is ridiculous. Uberhaxornova's playthrough of Walking dead got a strike from ign how ridiculous
Thank you Fraser for being open and transparent with all of this. Its a crime what they are doing and I think I can speak for all of your fans that we are proud that youre taking a stand. Having a total Picard "The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!" moment.
I just checked the EA Press Conference video and the music in question clearly is "Nextale Nailze-You Lied (Club)". The Orchard Music really should sue the great John Williams for using it in 1980s "The Empire strikes back".
Go home, The Orchard Music, you're drunk!
This is ridiculous, the whole TH-cam copyright system is absolutely fubar. Maybe Fraser should refrain from burping on the Phoenix Wright shows, since The Orchard Music might identify that as some club mix.
We can only hope, that enough TH-camrs have the guts to appeal to shitty claims like this, so TH-cam finally realizes how broken the system is.
You have our support Fraser,best of luck.
I came across with your channel last year by mere accident and got hooked inmediately! Now I follow you in all social networks and web page because I beleive what you do is funny and original. This situation is horrible and shows the loopholes and failures of a copywright system that refuses to change and adapt to the new times. You have 100% my support and the support of the VGA fans. If you need us we're here for you ;-)
So f*cking pathetic when people try to make a living leeching off others, such a sad company. I hope things will go your way fast but it seems unlikely that it wouldn't anyway.
Several of videos I made with a capture card has gotten these claims by The Orchard, I'm working on disputing them, some of them actually did get cleared, but this worries me. 2-3 years of work going down the drain would be very....VERY upsetting ._.
I'll stick with you Farshar, we all will. Hell if youtube and Orchard music do come crashing down on the show, we'll still work to watch you on other websites like twitch or wherever VGA may be.
I'm sure most of us would rally together for a "Save our FrashFrash" campaign, raising appropriate money for Frash to go to court. This whole copyright nonsense is, of course, out of hand, to the point that a well thought-out court battle could at the very least place enough attention on the issue to get the wheels in motion to calm it al down. You could even make a good profit out of it. "Free the Fraser" t-shirts, daytime talk show interviews, release a book titled "How the Frash hit the fan: The Story of Fraser Agar ", sell the book's rights to have a movie made about it.
I guess we're lucky Ben went to law school.
Ben who??
Hawk Arm Bendad
Hawk Arm Oh... You just made me sad.
One day Baby Hank will grow up and go to college like Ben. (He's in Night School, don'tcha know?)
nilesrock024 And you made me sad. "Ben who?" is a classic ;)
I really hope things work out in your favor. You shouldn't have to be dealing with this stuff at all.
Flat out, you guys have become my favorite youtubers and the two times we've met now have become a highlight of my PAX East. I'm still very much looking forward to becoming a turbo when I have the money for it.
Like I said, I hope things work out and this stuff turns in your favor Fraser. I can only imagine the stress level that this is causing.
So, if Orchard Music actually makes three strikes and the channel gets taken down, s there any way of getting the channel back, even though The Orchard Music is proven wrong?
After (if) they apply strikes I must serve a counter-notification which removes the strike and reinstates the video UNLESS The Orchard decides to initiate legal proceedings against me.
I've dealt with The Orchard a number of times for my movie reviews such as Ridley Scott's Legend and The Thing. When making a dispute with The Orchard (IDOA) they will always deny your first appeal. I tried contacting them direct but they rarely reply and if they do they will send you a standard template email forwarding you to their TH-cam copyright claims blog, they never address your original issues. I got permission from the publisher of the Legend soundtrack to use parts of the score for my review and it took a month for them to finally resolve my second dispute highlighting the permission i got.
Just recently I got permission from Universal Studios to monetise the audio and visual content of my review of The Thing. The Orchard claimed the audio which I disputed and told them about the permission I got but they denied it.
Best thing to do is file a dispute they deny it but appeal again. They won't do anything. They will just let your dispute expire and the video will go back to you.
Have you tried contacting The Orchard through its Web site? On its Contact page, there's a section dedicated to TH-cam copyright claims (which is horrendously sad, in my opinion) with ways of contacting The Orchard regarding copyright claims. Not that they shouldn't be more responsive through TH-cam itself, but maybe trying that other path could be beneficial.
The claim on the EA Press Conference Lonesome particularly makes my face hurt from too much facepalming.
IT'S FREAKING STAR WARS! Not Nextale Nailze's 'You Lied.'
STAR WARS!
...
I need to go facepalm again.
You're not the first person to complain about the Orchard's haphazard copyright claims, according to their Wikipedia page. There's precedence here that could hopefully work in your favor.
Keep fighting the good fight Frash Frash.
Now, I've been Turboed since 2011. I believe I was one of the first 50 Turbos. However, I don't watch a lot of your content anymore, it hasn't peaked my interest very much.
That being said, I love your vlog videos. I don't know why, they always really captivate me. You always know exactly what you are talking about and can say it in such a calm and informative way.
Freaking ridiculous. Glad you decided to appeal Fwash, good luck and hopefully you can get this sorted out.
TH-cam needs to fix this broken crap.
Didn't expect that from the Orchard. I'm with CD Baby right now, haven't had any problems with them thus far, let's hope it stays that way. Well good luck Fraser, it's never fun wasting time and energy on something so stupid which shouldn't have happened in the first place.
What a pain in the ass...
Hopefully it'll all be fine. In the event that anything does go south though, I'll be with you guys all the way.
Fraser, I've been following you guys since you were put on the front page of Newgrounds. Where ever you go... ill go.
Hi Fraser and Becky. I can imagine this is a very stressful situation. You can always count on support of others, even those that lurk. I hope this will all be sorted out soon. You guys are too awesome too go dark!
I remember getting my first flagrant claim; I made a review of Attack on Titan (an anime series based out of Japan) and a Korean streaming service claimed they owned the rights to it. I was too afraid to fight city hall, and basically just let my first video to ever soar past 50,000 views in a week get taken down. It's a shitty feeling to be a grown-ass man and STILL feel bullied, so I'm gonna be cheering for Frash-Frash all the way. And if this goes sour, I'll be there wherever the show goes.
Then how about we bombard TH-cam's email? They need to know it's not right to let their content creators get bullied.
I just saw a video from 2011 of the same issue from Orchard Music. Pretty ridiculous that this has been going on for 3+ years.
Sick'em Fraser. You're right in every way on this except one, you are not alone.
Is there anything we can do to help?
Follow us everywhere!
Ughhhh Let me go get my pitchfork.... Im so sorry Fraser, it's heartbreaking how channels like yours who have real potential are being plucked off one by one, keep fighting and long live vga
Hope it goes well. Total support for your channel. Keep up the great work!
This is so informative
thanks for always being frank and direct with your audience... it keeps us better informed and helps us support you guys when we can keep up the good work!
Good luck Fraser! We're here to support you no matter what happens.
Lets get these bastards!
(Public Enemy starts playing)
*Song gets claimed by The Orchard Music and your comment gets deleted*
Damn it!
Out of curiosity, I looked up the songs in question, ( I found the second and third ones, but not the first. Both were on the same channel, and have abysmal view counts. It appears to be an official channel, of some sort.) and it turns out, no... neither of them sampled that Star Wars orchestral music or the orchestral music that was in the Destiny trailer at the point in question. Long story short... How the fuck did this get flagged? Is the automated system just that random, or did this company somehow manually flag videos all willy-nilly? These are things that I really want to know. In my opinion, this company is either intentionally abusing a broken and draconian system, or they have procedures in place that I, personally, would consider downright negligent and unprofessional.
For some reason The Orchard Music is allowed to use it's own in-house software for making Content ID matches. Their system creates more false positives than any other (in our experience) which works in their favour since they then get to claim revenue from more videos.
***** It almost makes me wonder if there's some buddybuddy deal between someone at The Orchard and Google (for any overly litigious people that might see this: I'm WONDERING, not stating). The whole Content ID match system is such a black hole it wouldn't be impossible to conceive.
***** Oh wow!
To preface what I'm about to say, I'm not saying this is the case with this company, but rather, an example of an extreme that this sort of BS could conceivably be taken to.
Say I start an independent label, and have a few friends throw together some songs, so I can sign them to the label. Then, through this kind of setup, I could use my own software to make countless, "matches" allowing me to make countless claims against transformative videos that have nothing to do with my company, but do contain media that is being discussed or parodied. I could probably get a pretty good sack of money, this way, and it would probably take quite a while until I ran into any problems, especially if I avoided big targets. If I sourced this software from another company, even if it was made, just for this purpose, I could probably argue that I didn't know the software was flawed, and get a pretty light slap on the wrist, at worst.
I seriously would not be surprised if this sort of plan was already being used by some, "company". I can't/won't say that's what's happened here, but I will say that I think this hypothetical situation will eventually come up, if it already hasn't, as long as the systems in place aren't drastically overhauled.
***** Looks like Google needs to at least have some STANDARDS in place for how good in-house content ID should be. At the very least, they need to add an option to their dispute system to account for false positives. This could actually be a good thing for all involved as it would allow these companies to better work out the kinks in their systems. At the very least, they'd end up spending less on whoever they have to pay to look at these disputes.
I this sort of thing keeps going on there might need to be some kind of class-action lawsuit or something.
Is there any particular reason that would justify allowing companies to use in-house content ID software in this specific context?
I mean, this seems like the sort of thing that should be standardized, if only to avoid the inherent inequality generated as a result of major companies having much greater access to resources to devote towards software for this application, thus providing an (arguably) unfair advantage... In a capitalistic/legal sense, I suppose its probably not an issue, but from an ethical stance on behalf of TH-cam, I'd have to think that'd be a nice feather in their metaphorical hat.
That really sucks. The evidence of just how flawed TH-cams automatic content ID system is, just becomes ever so evident. Fraser you have my support 100%, and I will continue to support and follow VGA whatever happens. I hope the appeal goes through smoothly and favorably for you.
Who do Orchard think they are! My main reason for going on TH-cam is to watch your shows, I love your shows so much, I even watch them when I do my work, at night, or whenever you guys are live. Your not alone Fraser, you've got us. Smile and show them what you've got!
we just started and they made a claim on a garage band apple inc loops. It's really not fair. Thank you for your video. We are gonna try to dispute it.
Another case of legal crime on the internet. Good luck with this.
Well, this is fantastic... Good luck Fraser, something tells me that this is going to be unreasonably blown out of proportion but hopefully in FFS's favor.
I believe in you, Frash! :) Good luck.
Just wanted to say I think it's really awesome that you are sticking to your principles on this, even when it comes at a pretty heavy risk. Not much else I can really say about this but thanks for updating us and I hope this doesn't end badly for you.
I also hope that there is a backup of every video ever uploaded on this channel.. Surely some DieHard Turbo has been backing the videos up. In case of a catastrophe,
TH-cam's identification is way too strict. It can flag songs because they use same samples. I had a case where my song was flagged because it shared same sample (from royalty free audio sample disc) that some other song in the content id database had. I had to email to the record company and in the email I proved that my song was published first and the isbn for the sample CD + a threath of a counter claim before the original claim was removed.
first of all: i spot a physical Mario Buddy in the Background!
okay, no that that's out of the way: fuck TH-cam's ID system and good luck with your appeal, we're with you.
Haha, I thought "Dang it, I should have hid that Mario Buddy! " as soon I started watching this video. You got a sneak peak ;)
This is such fucking bullshit. You should report them to youtube for blatant abuse of their abilities to flag videos. They should not be allowed to make bogus claims like that
This is something else. I've watched VideoGamesAwesome since 2011 and I think you guys are the best. I'm excited for the new ideas and maybe even a new movie show but youtube is sadly a savage world and isn't kind to youtubers who aren't attached to companies. I really hope Orchard music backs off and notice they made a mistake because you guys are awesome and don't deserve this.
I am currently dealing with the orchard music and have their claim under dispute. I also filed a rakedown request for the videos that the orchard used to claim with and am waiting to see what happens with my dispute. I hope youtube can put a stop to the orchard music.
Not that I would want to start a twitter pitchfork mob, but do they have a twitter we can, for lack of a better term, pitchfork mob?
Marvel's Avengers Age of Ultron Trailer is now online it leaked 1 week before it was supposed to so Marvel decided to officaly realese it
Good luck with everything. I hope it all turns out well. :(
I been around the gaming TH-cam community for a long time and I hear stories like these AT LEAST 5 times a year and it's sad that youtube gamers lose their channels due to copyright claims. I hope the best for you in this fight!
Good luck with the appeal! We're behind ya all the way :)
Soo if they take to court single a judge will decide that if your video has copyright music etc.
I was just thinking about this some more. I bet the WHOLE situation comes down to some guy at Orchard who is just clicking through you-tube lazily reinstating claims and rejecting things without even looking at them or reading them. One person not caring can effect someone else greatly.
It is likely far more insidious, with these copyright claims generating a source of income for Orchard Music. They receive the ad revenue until the actual creator appeals. It is very possible Orchard is doing this on purpose.
Fancy Giraffe Yeah, you might be right.
Us turbos will always love and support you guys through thick and thin whether u are forced to leave TH-cam or not i Will always be supporting you wherever u guys go.
Good luck Fraser. Me like many others are behind you no matter what. Ur doing the right thing
I wish I had some power to help you guys but all I can do is cheer you on. But you bet I am going to try my hardest at that too. Stay strong guys!
Good luck Fraser we will follow you till the end of the internet and just as an support I will become a turbo next month
What a great and well-thought out system TH-cam has to prevent these things!
Love you, Frash.
best of luck... following you guys whatever happends!
Don't Give Up Fraser. Stay Strong!!
I fell you bro, also they claimed some of the royalty free Black Math songs in my videos, I disputed using the licenses, also had a confirmation from Jimmy Lacy one of the artists"Those songs are definitely on the Free Music Archive with that license for you to use. Our record label Permanent Records has an arrangement with Orchard but we've never had a conflict before or been asked to change our licenses on the FMA."
So Orchard still reinstated the claim. So I spoke with the TH-cam Legal Support Team and got this response
“If you are certain this claim was made in error, you may be able to appeal the claimant’s decision. Eligible users will see an I want to appeal a disputed claim link. Please note that an appeal may result in a copyright strike and the removal of your video.
If you change your mind later, you may cancel the appeal on the same page where you disputed the claim.
Alternately, you may resolve this issue directly with the claimant at disputes@theorchard.com
Please note that TH-cam does not mediate copyright disputes."
So I sent them an email & I never got a response back, don't know if I should continuu with a appeal, it's a waste of time seeing another rejection even if you are right, I could simply had removed the songs or replace them with youtube music when I saw the first claim.
I know a third Party is claiming Kevin MacLeod's stuff as copyrighted by them, when it's under CC.
I've been butting heads with Orchard for about 2 years now, and each time they've falsely flagged my videos for songs that are not actually inside the video. Once they tried to claim silence on me. What TH-cam and Google should do is remove and restrict rights of falsely flagging for people that are known to be scam artists, which in this case is the Orchard Music Group.
Good luck, Fraser.
Thats scary, heres hoping that it all goes well. From my very limited knowledge of legal stuff it seems like they're likely to lose this battle.
This is the one reason I wish your stuff was still being posted to Blip. If something bad did happen, you'd have your entire backlog uploaded elsewhere.
Are there any uberfans keeping an archive of all of it? Because I'm still nowhere near finished watching it all.
I am going to be YouTubing/Twitch streaming when I get a computer, and I've come to the conclusion the only audio I will have is my voice.
I just started getting into Twitter, and really hate Facebook. So I'll be following y'all there to keep up to date. Best of luck to you. :)
Is there anything we, as a group can do to help, besides being here as viewers?
A temporary solution you could try doing is taking some time away from the triple-A titles and LP some Flash or HTML5 games on Newgrounds, you're way less likely to get copy right strikes against you in a place like that. I have some recommendations if you'd like to hear them.
Orchard Music seems to make claims on ANY videos so that they can steal money from creators. I don't think it would matter.
I've had a group called Orchard Entertainment claim visual ID on a video I've posted. From what i can tell it's the same company. It's so difficult to find who it actually is who's claiming. I asked a twitter account called Orchard Entertainment and they say it's nothing to do them. Found Orchtweets and this seems the likely culprit.
I've had a lot of issues with this. Had a Korean gaming channel claim on a Runner 2 video. Had a guy called Tbonepearon claim on my Sonic Racing video. He's done this to a lot of people on various games. This system is a mess.
good luck with this fraser, your show has always been my favourite channel on youtube, I will keep watching wherever you may go. In this instance it seems that you have definitive proof over the falsehood of the claims, I hope the system doesnt screw you over.
Man, I love seeing the old AVG props...
Seems like it's coming down to whoever gives in first...
*Plays Chumbawamba's Tubthumping*
I will certainly always be wherever you guys are .
This is why I hate TH-cam so much. Their copyright system is such BS. Hope everything goes well. Wish you guys luck in all this mess.
Oh man, that's so frustrating I hope everything goes well.
This entire copyright system is such a mess. And I know that this doesn't apply to this particular case, but I mean, don't these freaking idiots (like Nintendo and cohorts, the ones who like to reinstate their claims) realise that Lets Players have become a big part of gaming culture and that they're here to stay? I don't get it. They should be embracing shows like VGA, instead of fighting them. I mean, I speak for myself here, but I have bought a lot of games, simply because I watched Fraser play them on the show first and that's what got me interested in buying them. VGA and similar shows are nothing but free advertising, companies like Nintendo must finally understand that and act accordingly.
How much does it cost to go to court? I keep hearing everyone saying they can't "afford" to go to court, (not that anyone wants to) but I think winning a court case that effects TH-cam and Orchard may be the only way to get the point across.
SpikerMan One court case alone would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars just for discovery phase and hundreds of thousands more for the actual trial.
I got a claim via The Orchard Music for a Beethoven song Pathetique. The song is in the video but it is a work in public domain, and I believe I should go ahead and dispute the claim via Public Domain, but I don't know if I should proceed, I'm really concerned about this whole fact that they can give oyu a strike on your account and I don't want to cause any trouble with TH-cam or my MCN, what do you think I should do, just let them have it like the vultures they are or should I risk it on a video that only has a fairly small number of views (just over 1000) on a matter of principle?
Does this also allow for you to take legal action against them if you are found to have acted in good faith?
They are required to initiate legal action for it to go there. I imagine there are ways for me to pursue it outside of this process but I certainly don;t have the resources to do so.
wondering if someone can answer this for me: if fraser were to, idk the term, "win" this appeal fight with orchard music, what would orchard need to do? release the claim? is that not the same as when you dispute the claim, or can you not dispute it after it's been reinstated? as in, is appealing the next step after disputing if they don't release the claim? (wow, i absolutely hate how i worded this question lol.)
in any case, fight-o, fraser!
An appeal comes after a dispute which has been reinstated. If they reinstate the appeal they must apply a copyright strike to my account. After that I cant counter-notice TH-cam who will remove the strike. After that they MUST sue me to get the video take down and the strike applied to my account.
ah. gotcha, boss.
Good Luck Frash Frash!
One thing I'm curious about is the nature of the specific videos that are being disputed. The Destiny video is about 5/6 weeks old, so I imagine that the view figures for it has stagnated at this point, you're talking about a video with 10k and I'm guessing (Please correct me if I'm wrong Fraser) at least 80% of those views were within first 48 hours.
So why are they even bothering? This whole things seems like a waste of time and effort on their part, and thus being a nuisance for you. What do they really have to gain? I get that protecting your IP is a thing that you need to do at times, but that doesn't even apply here.
I've got this matched third party stuff on videos with less than 20 views, if this doesn't say something, then I don't know what else.
***** I'd expect that from the automatic matching, but this seems to be a case where a human has actively chosen to continue with the dispute.
Do you have a backup TH-cam account in case of deletion, and do you have backup copies of your videos in case of migration?
Orchard Music likes to pray on this copyright loop some people have made their own music to have it claimed by them.