Just because a customer doesn't come back to complain doesn't mean it hasn't caused them issues, they just didn't want to deal with the person who caused an issue and went somewhere else. Repeat customers is a sign of a healthy business.
I am a mechanical engineer. This was a good video clearly demonstrating why a torque wrench needs to be applied after a torque stick has been used. I feel everyone should pay close attention to Sherwood. He is on each lug nut briefly as to not to over torque the fastener. The purpose of the torque stick is to get you within range of the final torque. Preferably below range. For further information on the subject I recommend watching the Torque Test Channel, October 7, 2022. They briefly address the topic of the electric impact guns with torque sticks. They also provide great video footage of torque sticks in motion using high speed cameras. There are a number of factors involved establishing proper torque: thread friction, friction between the lug nut and wheel, lubricated studs, dry studs, etc. I feel the manufacturer provides a torque specification for a dry stud (not lubricated) and the car resting on the ground. Look at the torque stick as a spring. The function is based upon the material of construction, cross sectional geometry and length. My compliments for getting the kids involved. This country is short of tradesmen with good troubleshooting skills. It is great to see young people working with their hands and getting dirty.
Exactly. The Torque Test Channel has a couple of excellent videos on torque sticks and their limitations. What I write below summarizes their findings: The torque stick doesn't replace a torque wrench, it just lets you zip on the nuts tunnel the first pop of the wrench without over torquing. When Sherwood first put the nuts on to a couple of impacts, that was the end of the torque stick's usefulness for those nuts. After that the torque wrench should be used. With continued use the torque stick will wind up and exert greater and greater torque. As your data shows, this effect is intensified by the higher impact frequency of the electric impact. Torque sticks were originally designed for use with air impacts. So just zip the nuts on until the first one or two impact hits and quit, Use the torque wrench after that.
'' I feel the manufacturer provides a torque specification for a dry stud (not lubricated) and the car resting on the ground. '' What kind of mechanical engineer torques cars wheels with car resting on he ground? Secondly u can overtighten bolts and nuts by up to 40% without any visible damage - maybe it would make damage if u changed your wheels 1000 times each .
I don’t believe you get proper torque when wheels are on the ground. You are dragging the tire along the ground with the weight of the vehicle on it. I have always had to go back and re torque the wheels because they did not mate up properly.
I am a shop owner and really appreciate the “care factor” of your team. Especially, when you clarify they are on flat rate. Your team focuses on the “why” and works together. I would be your customer if I lived in GA.
Even in this day and age many still don't follow basic procedure like correct torque and clean, flat mounting surfaces. The few extra minutes not only separates you as a professional, but eliminates untold problems down the road. (Or sooner). Good video. Al
👍Great video! 100% correct way to tighten lug nuts is with a calibrated torque wrench and never with an impact directly. From my experience I NEVER TRUST A SHOP anymnore! On Honda products grossly over tightening wheel nuts will 100% warp rotors, wheel flanges. Not instantly but over a few months people will start to notice pulsating brakes. I can only imagine over the years millions of unsuspecting customers had to have brake jobs because of the work done by incompetent or dishonest shops. When wheels are tightened to specification, Honda rotors don't warp. The same is true of most vehicles. Most all shops just ram it down to 250+ lb ft with a gun , call it good, and say torqued wheels on the invoice. My wife's Honda Odyssey got a flat from a road hazard and I went out to change it. Could not get the lug nuts loose even when a bystander and I together tried to loosen it. It just twisted the lug wrench. I had to go home and get my Snap On breaker bar with a long cheater pipe to get the wheel nuts loose. When I got home I loosed all wheel nuts with a impact. I could barely get them loose! Then torqued properly with a wrench. I just put new premium rotors and pads on my Rigdeline and they worked perfectly. That is until I had the 2 front tires replaced. Within 3 months the front rotors were warped. Then I realized and checked the lug nuts and they were grossly over tightened. The invoice said "Torque wheels to spec." I have been burned to many times by crappy work done by shops from cross threaded drain plug, over tightened oil filters, over tightened or loose spark plugs, bad alignments, you name it. Virtually everything a shop has done has been loused up in some way or another. I do all my own maintenance and repairs now, Saves money but more importantly it is done correctly. Unfortunately from my experience the automotive repiar industry's has a reputation of doing poor quality work and taking advantage of unsupecting customers. "Trust but verify" is a saying that also applies to anyone having work done to their vehicle or they will likely get screwed.
As a technician myself, I have also adopted the light impact style with a torque wrench follow-up. It is a good method, and the other techs in my shop have also adopted this (sometimes against their will lol). If I remember correctly torque sticks are supposed to be used in the same manner, however they are supposed to stop you from going over. You still have to properly torque the lug nut with a torque wrench. I've seen them being used as a crutch so to speak, and I've heard many techs over the years say that is good enough. I don't believe that and I'm not going to. Torque wrench on a lug nut is the ONLY way in my opinion. I also primarily use Air except when i'm working outside. I personally think the electric impacts are really heavy and they just don't give you the feel that an air impact does. Everyone is different, maybe one day I'll switch, but for now im sticking with air. On the other hand all my other air tools have been replaced with electric tools. Awesome video! Thanks for all that you do to keep the automotive industry honest, and help spread the message that a lot of techs/shop genuinely want to do the right thing!
You are correct 💯 and a follow up in 2-500 miles (aluminum wheels mainly but all ) at least have someone check. Never know but it also shows that you care!
I've been taught when using torque sticks to watch when the socket stops moving and not to keep hitting it past that point or the impacts can actually overtorque it.
Twenty years ago when I owned a shop, we used torque sticks. I bought a name brand, don't remember which, from one of the guys in a tools truck. The first instruction that came with the set was how to calibrate the impact gun. The sticks are only accurate when the input torque from the gun is at a specified value. If the input torque is too high, the stick twist will not be able to absorb the excess torque. An aside: I think your run an excellent operation. I'll bet for you "The Right Way" is the "Only Way".
Like John Martin, who commented before me, I found that I had to Throttle Down my Ingersoll Rand model 231 so as to not overdrive my torque sticks. I simply use the regulator in the forward and reverse button on my Ingersoll Rand pneumatic gun. The built-in regulator goes from 0 to 5. I had to set the regulator down to number two for them to work properly. The torque sticks like the old 1960s Chrysler torsion bar suspension. They'll only work with a gun that gives intermittent impacts. The bars have to spring back between the impacts of the gun to limit the torque. I suspect that the electric guns' impacts do not have sufficient pause interval between impacts to allow the torque sticks to spring back.
Thanks for taking the time out of your weekend to so this. My default method was impact them on loosely, lower the car then go around it twice with the torque wrench. If the nut didn't move, it'd get backed off and then done with the torque wrench. Eventually went to torque sticks with the Milwaukee electric. Definitely didnt feel right compared to having used torque sticks with air many years ago. After a bit of testing had concluded that electric beats too quickly on the torque stick and will definitely lead to going a fair bit past the rating of the stick. Have reverted back to original method and i sleep better at night! 😅 I'd be curious to see what torque stick manufacturers have to say about using the more modern electronic impacts on them. For now, I'll join the club and spend the extra minute or two and know it's done right. 🙂
Electric impacts have a higher impact rate which doesnt allow the torque stick to flex back properly, which is what causes the overtorque compared to air impact guns
We own a tire shop (Ingham Family Tire) here in Mason, MI and purchased torque sticks thinking they'd save us time on the installs. Thankfully we have enough sense to not to take "as advertised" at face value. After running through a series of test, we have concluded that torque sticks are (1) Unreliable in the amount of torque being applied, and (2) On multiple occasions torqued dangerously low compared to the stick's rating. For example of an 80 ft lb torque stick, we were reliably (at 150psi, the spec for the sticks,) torqueing down to only 46-65 ft lbs. After the series of tests we ran, we concluded that torque sticks are garbage... Dangerous (due to under-torqueing,) and add liability (due to potential over-torqueing or under-torqueing). Stick what has been tried and true: Use a torque wrench, and ensure you have someone else double-checks your work.
I agree with your system 100% just drive by a tire shop and listen to the way they tighten wheels and we could go about the stories of wheel lugs we have replaced because of over torquing not to mention rotors keep up the good work I’m encouraged thank you very much god bless
Agreed they pound the heck out of them, I took a car to get a set of tires and they started yell break out the heat wrench, I said your not using that on my car are you? He said yeah you got locking lugs, I said the keys in the trunk with the spare, he said we can't find it, so I showed him it was on the lug wrench 😂
thanks for this. our volunteer shop trusts the torque sticks on a 1/2 milwaukee cordless. i'll be sure to advocate for a change back to air and following with a torque wrench
Thank you for putting this out there. I used to use an impact to put wheels but now I realize how unprofessional that is for all the reasons you explained so well. Now I install wheels exactly the way you all do, it's a great efficient way to do it with accuracy.
Ive been a mechanic for 36 years…, 100 percent agree with you! Quality, safety first., I snug them and then hand torque the wheels( The correct way) keep smiling
Thanks for this. You don't appreciate torqueing the lug nuts on properly until after you've had a wheel come off at freeway speeds because the studs all sheared off like I have had. Fortunately, I had 19 other wheels (10-axle semi), but it was a little nerve wracking seeing a 500-lb wheel rolling down the road past me possibly causing an accident on the dark, steep canyon freeway I was on.
Had a Goodyear dealership "forque" me yrs. ago and strip 3 studs, I hand thread, use a 3/8"speed handle and torque to manufacturers specs. Another GOOD Video! It adds 1 min per wheel! Your dead nuts ON as Always! Keep up the good work!
Back about 40 or so years ago the local tire store, and others I'd wager, used the impact to run the nuts up and then check the torque with a torque wrench. On my way home the rotor was warped. I drove it that way understanding that the wheel was "torqued". Having had drum brakes on all 4's before that the impact gun was never an issue. Interesting video. Thanks. P.S. I'm over here from South Main. One thing I have to say is that eye protection is a good thing when you're using an air impact. P.P.S. Air impacts only.
I’m not a mechanic, just interested in gaining knowledge for light diy stuff. Thank you for doing this video, it was educational for me 😃. Good to see the family working together 😊.
Loved this video and I viewed it tonight after buying some new tools recently. Sherwood, you absolutely nailed it, , , er torqued it! I was taught how to torque by locomotive engine mechanical engineers early in my career as a railroad diesel engine instructor. Great bunch of guys trained me at a locomotive manufacturing facility. I also did a side-hustle as an auto mechanic and loved both jobs. The mechanical engineers told me torque wrenches then were about 70% accurate back then. At age 68, about two weeks ago (before I knew of you and subscribed to your channel), I decided it was finally time to try a cordless impact gun. I bought one from Amazon that was compatible to Makita batteries along with a package of torque sticks. The gun was nowhere near the torque advertised and neither were the torque sticks. When I followed up with my torque wrench, I got the same results you did. So, I returned the torque sticks. Since the gun was more of a snugga dugga gun and less of an ugga dugga gun, I returned that too and got a cordless gun with bigger ugga duggas! Love the new cordless gun. I love your channel! Glad I found you guys in the past two weeks. Best Wishes and Take Care, Tom
im a certifed marine tech. In our shop we do the same. elec or air gun run in the nut. than torque wrench. Trailer than gets road tested if all good upon inspection it is retorqued than vessel is washed and detailed.... nowadays with alloy and special types of materials the wheels are made off. Proper torque to spec is required. They aint steel wheels of yester years, back than i used air and still got my full set off snap on sticks still in my toolbox (aint used them for 20yrs).
Hi I enjoy watching your videos I found the same thing when I loosen the wheels but I think it’s our reaction time waiting for the digital reaction to stop,I found the click type to be more consistent because when it clicks the torque wrench doesn’t apply torque for a second I’m a 40 year technician
I’ll add my technique: use a torque stick and impact gun to get you close, but not over, the targeted final torque quickly. Torque sticks are not highly precise instruments, so size down when using them to account for impact gun differences in impacts per minute, hammer mass and how that particular impact gun will interact with a given torque stick torsional stiffness. 1. Select a torque stick one size below the target torque spec. Meaning, use an 80 ft-lb stick for a 100 ft-lbf torque target. 2. With the wheel off the ground…Maintain a light trigger finger on the impact gun…meaning, immediately stop applying torque once you hear/notice a sound change/stick movement change as torque is being applied. Applying torque past the sound change point overrides the torque stick value due to factors like impacts per minute of the gun and resonant torsional frequency of the stick. Those extra seconds of applying torque past the sound change/movement change point are the source of over torquing. 3. Put the wheel on the ground and Finish off the correct torque value with the torque wrench…meaning take the torque from somewhere around 80 ft-lbf to the 100 Ft-lbf target…works every time. I imagine once you get the feel for the proper trigger release point, you can try using the correct size torque stick (not sizing down) for the target torque, but you have to experiment first since each impact gun and torque stick combination will likely produce different final torque values.
This is awesome that you involve the kids! Hoiwever to the subject toss all torqx sticks in the trash!! I have never seen them to be consistent and especially over long term use! the wrench is the only real true way with a known good wernch that has been properly cared for and routinely tested for accuracy. GReat video to show why they are trash
I’m dealing with the issue right now of a tech not torquing my wheels correctly. After 25 plus years as a driveability tech and hotline tech and finally an instructor at UTI. I am disabled and wheelchair bound, I had a tire replaced at a shop and not only did it not get balanced correctly as I have a shake at higher speeds it developed a brake shutter and it has never had it before. The thing is it doesn’t show up right away most times and I have drilled and slotted rotors to help dissipate the heat. I know it was caused by improper torque of the wheel. It’s a 2004 Toyota Sequoia and also before the slip on rotor days we could get away with impacting wheels on because rotors were huge slabs of steel.
have both electric and air the old CP 734 still works beautifully along with a couple SnapOn too and depends on the place and availability of air as to where I use each but I prefer air or did when I was still in the shop. At my home shop I prefer air too.
My wheel torque procedure with my business was similar to yours, except that i would run the nuts in with light to medium force with a torque stick. Then go back and hand torque. I would always use the torque stick that was closest to the specified torque without going over. The torque wrench would always move slightly to bring the nut up to the specified torque.
Great content. I use my Makita XWT18, on setting 2 for lug nuts. On my Rav 4, I use a 65ft-# stick to tighten, drop the car down, then use a torque wrench to click up to 76ft-#. Works great.
Thx for the test. The battery pack makes such a big variation and changes when full vs half charge. Also with high output batteries, it’s just all over the place. The reason why cordless ends up tighter is because of the higher impacts per minute because of how the way electric motor impacts woek compared to air. The torque trst channel had a video explaining this using a high speed camera. The pneumatic at least will have consistent input energy. If in a shop in a bay, air is great, gun is light and small. Only time cordless wins is mobile mechanics or u need super high torque approaching 2k ftlb
It takes a little longer but my shop finger tightens. Our air guns have "adjustable air restricters" on them so the tighten enough to center the wheel and we hand torque after. We started doing this years ago primary because we got tied of being accused and having to repair free damaged studs taking the wheels off to do other stuff after a "tire center" rotated the tires last. Wheels put on properly come off properly. We also tried using tourque sticks at one point only to find they were inaccurate.
Uk guy here. Been working on old land rovers for years. I use a low power electric gun with an impact socket to snug the wheel nuts down, then use the torque wrench.
First video I've seen from you guys but I definitely like what I saw and will continue to watch your content. Other videos on torque sticks I've seen they tell you to let go of the trigger once you see the nut stop moving and, on electrics, put the wrench on the closest setting to the rating of the torque stick. I guess maybe this helps to make sure you don't go over the rating and keeps it more consistent.
I still use an air 1/2 impact. All others, 3/8 impact and ratchets I use both air and cordless, I still use the air occasionally just because I have them. Here in the rust belt the back side of aluminum wheels on vehicles a few years old or older, have to be cleaned every time the wheel comes off or they don't get torqued correctly, either useing torque sticks or torqueing by hand. The corrosion that occurs between the wheel and the rotor actually will make the lugs tighter in some cases too.
First off, I don't even own any torque sticks and never will. Wheel torque, or improperly torquing, is one of my pet peeves. Seen way to many people ugga dugga them on then go around and "click" with the torque wrench and call it "torqued". Granted, I will remove wheels with my air gun and protective socket but going back on I don't use air. I use a speeder and socket to seat the lug nut by hand and then everything gets torqued by hand in 2-3 steps. I've been wrenching for 35+ years and that is how I've always torqued wheels on. Secondly, I commend you for getting the kids involved and teaching them properly. Mike
When I worked for Honda, a field service engineer told me personally to use torque sticks that were either made by Honda or made specifically for Honda. Then to use the preset torque wrenches. I was given a 90ft lbs torque wrench for the smaller lugs (I think for all the ones that used 19mm) and I think it was 110ft lbs for the bigger cars. I never got torque sticks but would tighten the lugs at the lowest possible setting on my air impact and would then torque with the preset wrench. I still use air to this day. Call me old school but I feel more comfortable with air.
I still use the air impact and torque sticks to install, which is close but under torqued. Go for a short test drive and retorque by hand. Never an issue.
i watch a lot of you tube channels and have learned a lot your channel does the very best explaining. i watch watch wes work, Ivan at PHAD and Eric south main auto and some others you are first class and so far always respond if i have a question thanks so much for the hard work and effort you put into this. i have a few youtube videos have a hard time making the time to record. i enjoy draw testing. will always remember the first draw test was one of the newer VW Beetles took a while to understand the wiring but found and fixed. i still have couple air tools but hardly ever use them
I had a lot of issues with lug nuts coming loose even with a torque wrench on aluminum/alloy wheels. Those wild changes in measurements I believe comes from wheel flex. Now I torque them on the lift with the wheels just touching, shaking the wheel to make sure it centers. Torque them again with it on the ground. And then drive for 5 minutes and then check the torque.
so 16 yrs in the tool business. Here are 2 things that everyone should realize. Torque sticks do not work with a cordless impact due to the clutch. They are designed to work with air impacts. 2nd, if you actually read the instructions on a torque stick, you are supposed to regulate the air pressure to 90psi. so you should have a in line regulator on the bottom of your gun or on that air line end. The reason for both these rules is torque sticks use tensile strength to stop turning and applying torque and instead the beam starts twisting.
I use the newest Matco air impact on the second lowest setting and do my initial tightening on the lugnuts with the closest rating torque stick to the vehicle’s spec. Obviously using either equal to or lower than spec. Never over. I usually get about a quarter turn out of the torque wrench before it clicks. Seems to work well for me.. I’ve found that with most modern impacts if you use torque sticks with them cranked all the way up you’ll over tighten the lugs every time.
I've vehicle tech from the 70-2016 snap on first came with the torque sockets set in the 80s colors were green 65ft, orange 85ft blue 100ft, black 120ft and white 140ft. The green orange and blue for alum rim white and black for steel rims in my time. We also found out throw time if your compressor did not have enough CFM your torque will be all over the place. Also your impact the older it become will change torque. The same as elect impacts in the cold. The elect impact I found to work the best in snap on and Mac. But all in all your torque wrench will always the best way to go.
I do all of ours except for our aircraft tugs when tires are put on. Every time the company does it and I’m not there I have at least 4 bad studs. I know so many guys who for decades said the same as what you’ve heard mostly because they don’t understand the reason for torque specs, they only get a part of it, and refuse to learn new things
I just wanted to say i learn alot from you guys and i enjoyed this experiment and i cant wait to learn more from you guys i already watched every video you guys posted im 23 and i just opened my mobile mechanic business in chicago also currently going to lincoln tech and its shops like yours that inspired me to get into this business with the honesty and the knowledge and im greatful to learn from you guys and in every video ypu post i learn something i wouldnt mind seeing more experiments or diag videos those help alot even tho i enjoy all the videos but keep up the great videos i cant wait fo the next one
We appreciate that man! We think you’ll like the next video with a blinker issue on an Acadia. We will see you on that one! Thanks for all your support and we wish you nothing but the best on your business endeavors!
@@theroyaltyautoservice we all appreciate you as well for teaching us all the right way to do things and yes that would be something i would love to see cant wait! and thank ypu im doimg the best as one can i actually follow ypu on tiktok you guys motivated me to start my tiktok josephs mobile mechanic so again thank you glad you guys made a youtube!
Great buddy system and prevents mistakes especialy from rushing. Going all the way back to the late 80s I learned the importance of torquing and doing it by just snuggine up and then a min of 2 step torquing to 50% then to 100% or 3 step. Many would laugh at me yet I laughed last after they had comebacks with vibration from warping and I never had any issue. Never forget the long way is the short way. its the jobe done one correctly and done. only comebacks are part failures or hones mistakes simple as that
Gentlemen I really appreciate your video! I'm always happy to see other tools. I've always wondered about torque wrenches. I do my own work on my car. I was trying to figure out recently why the torque specs say 59 ft lbs. Then 120 °. I was looking at one example of almost 181ft lbs. Only after a 60° turn. For a lower control thrust arm. As researching this. I found that a torque Adapter has only a 2% variant. I don't use either air or electric impacts. Id love to have them. I'm wondering if you put a air or electric impact tool maybe a better way? Thanks again for your time and video!
I have air impact for when its needed but most of the time with hondas atleast my milwaukee 3/8 or 1/2 imapcts are fine. Usually use 1/2 to remove lugs and put the 3/8's on 2 to snug the lugs then hand torque on the ground
I recently started using a torque wrench. At work we have those exact torque sticks except its astro pneumatic branded. I found with ours the torque sticks was lower compared to my torque wrench(1/2 SK Torque Wrench click type).
I wish we highlight that the importance of proper torquing is really about Customer Safety. Most lug nuts I've encountered are OVER torqued because of lack of attention or proper use of tools. When a lug nut is over torqued, it is simply impossible to loosen using the tire iron provided in the car's spare tire's kit; it's usually a cheapo, 12-inch long straight bar with lug socket size. I've been on the side of the road helping friends and family try to take off their flat tire using the car provided tools - mostly failures resulting me my having to go home and return with better wrenches. Imagine doing this on a cold, northeast night - just sucks. My comment on the experiment is KEEP IT SIMPLE. As an engineer, I'd love to see the result using a simpler test: The stated video objective was to "test and compare torque sticks" (I'll abbreviate using t-stick and t-wrench for brevity) Take a calibrated t-wrench, one tire lug, pick one tire lug hole on the wheel and the t-stick you want to investigate. Drive the t-stick with the t-wrench and observe when they each reach the intended torque. Keep adjusting the setting on the t-wrench until they both reach the 'click or beep'. When they do, you'll know what the t-stick's actual torque accuracy is. Do this a few times to get more samples but do not change or introduce anything else into the experiment. If they 'click/beep' at different times, then loosen the lug nut and set the t-wrench to a lower or higher value until they sound off at the same time. The resulting torque value is how much the t-stick differs from the original targeted torque setting. To find the "break-away torque" value for that particular bolt and lug hole setup: (1) Torque the bolt to a set value, (2) paint the head of the lug nut/bolt to help see when it moves (3) slowly increase the torque setting on t-wrench until it "clicks/beeps" at the moment the bolt started rotating. (4) Repeat this several times to know what the break- away torque value is for that combination of lug nut/bolt, and hole. This way you can reduce the impact wrench results by this value The combination of t-sticks and impact tools will be different so each paired combination of these needs to be separately tested as you did. Reduce the value measured by the calibrated t-wrench when the lug first moves by the break-away valued learned in the prior step. I have professional experience designing tests (military products); I understand that it is important to eliminate as many variables as possible that could change the test outcomes - keeping it simple is vital for consistent and dependable results. Hope this helps..m Cheers..marcel
My comment on the experiment is KEEP IT SIMPLE. As an engineer, I'd love to see the result using a simpler test: The stated video objective was to "test and compare torque sticks" (I'll abbreviate using t-stick and t-wrench for brevity) Take a calibrated t-wrench, one tire lug, pick one tire lug hole on the wheel and the t-stick you want to investigate. Drive the t-stick with the t-wrench and observe when they each reach the intended torque. Keep adjusting the setting on the t-wrench until they both reach the 'click or beep'. When they do, you'll know what the t-stick's actual torque accuracy is. Do this a few times to get more samples but do not change or introduce anything else into the experiment. If they 'click/beep' at different times, then loosen the lug nut and set the t-wrench to a lower or higher value until they sound off at the same time. The resulting torque value is how much the t-stick differs from the original targeted torque setting. To find the "break-away torque" value for that particular bolt and lug hole setup: (1) Torque the bolt to a set value, (2) paint the head of the lug nut/bolt to help see when it moves (3) slowly increase the torque setting on t-wrench until it "clicks/beeps" at the moment the bolt started rotating. (4) Repeat this several times to know what the break- away torque value is for that combination of lug nut/bolt, and hole. This way you can reduce the impact wrench results by this value
The combination of t-sticks and impact tools will be different so each paired combination of these needs to be separately tested as you did. Reduce the value measured by the calibrated t-wrench when the lug first moves by the break-away valued learned in the prior step.
When I sold MAC tools I refused to put torque sticks on my truck. And I will not allow anyone to use them on my vehicles. That has led to some arguments over the years.
Could part of the reason for the erratic readings when checking the tightness torque be what I heard (dry non lubricated squeak) when you free spun the lug nuts? Maybe try again after having lubricated all of the lug nuts? Just thinking out of the box.
Still use 1/2" air, tighten lug nuts on speed one, ( approx 80 ftlbs ) then hand torque, checking for some movement of lug nut while torquing. Pretty old school, but it still rocks...
If I use Milwaukee wrench I snug it with the wrench and final torque with a torque wrench. Some milwaukee guns have different settings when tightening a fastener.
To get the right torque, I would suggest using 785 Parting Lubricant Ceramic-Based, High Performance Anti-Seize/Thread Lubricant from AW Chesterton. Years ago I sold these products for industrial plants. Chesterton did extensive research on threads after torque to the right amount.
Was the Milwaukee gun set to the third or 4th position? I know when you loosen in the 4th position it will slow down when less torque is detected. I’ll test tightening in 4th setting tomorrow to see. Always use the second setting and never had a problem over tightening studs. Comes in around 150 ft lb with fully charged 9amp hour battery, depending on short or deep socket. Cool video
I know what the issue is with the torque sticks during these tests, the air impacts are being used in a high impact mode, directions should’ve stated to reduce the torque on the gun to reduce the impact torque through the stick.
Extensions do not effect torque because you are applying torsional force and it is transferred to the socket and the nut as you twist the wrench. It may take more rotation but the torque applied is the same. Force applied to one end is equal to the force applied to the socket on the other end it just takes more travel of the wrench applying the twist. Hope that makes sense
@@CodycoWeb I have to disagree. Multiple times I've been unable to remove a lug nut with a long extension. Removing the extension or choosing a shorter one allows the nut to come off effortlessly. The extension was absorbing some of the torque from the impact. It's probably why torque sticks are so long.
I have been using a 65 lbf-ft torque stick with an air impact on low, then hand torquing (to 80 or 103 depending on which car) after dropping the car down on the ground. I now have an electric impact driver with selectable output force, so I will use that on medium (no stick), then hand torque.
In this video they proved that electric gun has higher frequency of impact so it doesn't allow the torque stick to retract enough (retracting is required for the torque limiting feature)so the torque stick doesn't do its job correctly with electric gun - you end up overtorquing. Should be fine with air impact. th-cam.com/video/JVY0e5sdWx4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wAzMrGj5OgVrDsy1 Another takeaway I got from another source - a seasoned master tech who now teaches diagnostics at a local college - torquesticks are not very accurate in the number rated but they bring about uniform torque around the wheel, which is key for good health of brake rotor, and proper rotation of the wheel. also able to finish torquing while car still on the lift.He swears by them used with air impact. Again what you guys do is the best (torque wrench), but flateraters just look for shortcuts, otherwise can't make a decent living. Kick the can of removing the lugnut to the next person.
My question is how often are you recalibrating your torque wrench’s? I worked on helicopters in the Marine Corps for 20 years, and our torque wrench’s were recalibrated once or twice a year. We also had to zero out the torque wrench after every use, and if the torque wrench ever got dropped it had to be recalibrated again.
When your torqueing the lug nut your stretching the stud to an engineered value (torque specification) not overstretching them and than they dont spring back (permanently stretched) threads are distorted beyond limit. It takes more force to tighten the spring than to release the spring thats why it takes less torque to loosen the lug nuts The spring tension when the stud is torqued is what provides the clamping force
As for air vs. electric, I still use air for the majority of my work. I do have a few cordless Snap-on and Milwaukee tools but I'm still old school and prefer air in many applications. Mike
All I know is that I carry a battery operated rattle gun in my car as I have arthritis & removing & tightening up the wheel nuts on the side of the road in the wind/rain/day or night whatever the gun stops at is tight enough for me & I know that the wheel is not coming off.
I must have some awesome torque sticks that purchased from Harbor Freight. They consistently under torque. My lugs always require about a 1/8 turn to hear the torque wrench click.
I use the Milwaukee fuel 1/2" I actually start with my 1/4" drive then snug it down with the 1/2 " and finish with my 1/2" CDI torque wrench. I pretty much rely on the 1/2" inch to remove lugs. But definitely electric and I use the husky 3/8 drive ratchet for light work.
i think, is one more thing that we have to consider. Short or long socket? An old tech told me,that, for torque wrenches, Short sockets makes the jod,more accurate. But ,I haven't test this theory yet.
Fifty plus years working on cars both as a professional and hobbyist. Impacts are good for dismantling suspensions and other large, tight fasteners but not much else. I use an electric gun to lightly seat lug bolts/nuts and then out come the torque wrench. There are no shortcuts if the goal is quality.
I use a 1/2 electric or air I just turn down the setting so its 10-20 lbs lower than the specification and than finish it off with the torque wrench and it needs to turn the lug nut usually 1/4 to 1/2 a turn to reach the specfied torque When using a torque stick read the instructions your are supposed to calibrate (the air pressure at the impact is also a variable maybe use a air pressure regulator)the impact setting with the selected torque stick with a torque wrench and than periodically recheck and recalibrate as needed I think you would have gotten more accurate results
i am not mechanic and i had been using same stubby 3/8” to loose and lightly tighten it and use torque wrench to all my hondas 19mm 80ft lb 22mm 95 ft lb
I use name brand tools I do not cut corners when it comes down to torquing down wheels. I use electric to put the wheel on but I use a torque wrench to finish. I use air on everything inside the shop except in the vehicle.
I understand that they work when used with air tools because they were designed with the hammering frequency of the air impact tools, the electric impact tools have higher frequencies and will not work correctly, they tend to over torque when using an electric impact, a way to mitigate is to set if possible the electric impact on the lowest speed and choose a torque stick thats a bit under the number u want to reach so u wanna torque to 100nm choose a 90nm stick and set the electric impact on lowest speed ... Or something along those lines experiment and see what works for ur tools.
I am a DYI. I have a cheap Ryobi impact in the truck of every car and a torque stick... (my Toyota's have a 75 ft-lb for subaru 90 ft-lbs) for on the road emergency better and guessing. At home... always use a Torque wrench.
Forget the impacts for setting torque. Use them to snug the nuts - way below the final target. Hand torque to 50%, then again at 100%. This will remove variables like imperfect threads and grit on the mating surfaces.
Just because a customer doesn't come back to complain doesn't mean it hasn't caused them issues, they just didn't want to deal with the person who caused an issue and went somewhere else. Repeat customers is a sign of a healthy business.
I am a mechanical engineer. This was a good video clearly demonstrating why a torque wrench needs to be applied after a torque stick has been used. I feel everyone should pay close attention to Sherwood. He is on each lug nut briefly as to not to over torque the fastener. The purpose of the torque stick is to get you within range of the final torque. Preferably below range.
For further information on the subject I recommend watching the Torque Test Channel, October 7, 2022. They briefly address the topic of the electric impact guns with torque sticks. They also provide great video footage of torque sticks in motion using high speed cameras.
There are a number of factors involved establishing proper torque: thread friction, friction between the lug nut and wheel, lubricated studs, dry studs, etc. I feel the manufacturer provides a torque specification for a dry stud (not lubricated) and the car resting on the ground.
Look at the torque stick as a spring. The function is based upon the material of construction, cross sectional geometry and length.
My compliments for getting the kids involved. This country is short of tradesmen with good troubleshooting skills. It is great to see young people working with their hands and getting dirty.
Exactly. The Torque Test Channel has a couple of excellent videos on torque sticks and their limitations. What I write below summarizes their findings:
The torque stick doesn't replace a torque wrench, it just lets you zip on the nuts tunnel the first pop of the wrench without over torquing. When Sherwood first put the nuts on to a couple of impacts, that was the end of the torque stick's usefulness for those nuts. After that the torque wrench should be used.
With continued use the torque stick will wind up and exert greater and greater torque. As your data shows, this effect is intensified by the higher impact frequency of the electric impact. Torque sticks were originally designed for use with air impacts. So just zip the nuts on until the first one or two impact hits and quit, Use the torque wrench after that.
Great posts from both of you, thanks!👍🙏
This WAS Awesome! Thanks!
'' I feel the manufacturer provides a torque specification for a dry stud (not lubricated) and the car resting on the ground. ''
What kind of mechanical engineer torques cars wheels with car resting on he ground?
Secondly u can overtighten bolts and nuts by up to 40% without any visible damage - maybe it would make damage if u changed your wheels 1000 times each .
I don’t believe you get proper torque when wheels are on the ground. You are dragging the tire along the ground with the weight of the vehicle on it. I have always had to go back and re torque the wheels because they did not mate up properly.
I am a shop owner and really appreciate the “care factor” of your team. Especially, when you
clarify they are on flat rate. Your team focuses on the “why” and works together. I would be your customer if I lived in GA.
Even in this day and age many still don't follow basic procedure like correct torque and clean, flat mounting surfaces. The few extra minutes not only separates you as a professional, but eliminates untold problems down the road. (Or sooner). Good video. Al
👍Great video! 100% correct way to tighten lug nuts is with a calibrated torque wrench and never with an impact directly. From my experience I NEVER TRUST A SHOP anymnore! On Honda products grossly over tightening wheel nuts will 100% warp rotors, wheel flanges. Not instantly but over a few months people will start to notice pulsating brakes. I can only imagine over the years millions of unsuspecting customers had to have brake jobs because of the work done by incompetent or dishonest shops. When wheels are tightened to specification, Honda rotors don't warp. The same is true of most vehicles. Most all shops just ram it down to 250+ lb ft with a gun , call it good, and say torqued wheels on the invoice. My wife's Honda Odyssey got a flat from a road hazard and I went out to change it. Could not get the lug nuts loose even when a bystander and I together tried to loosen it. It just twisted the lug wrench. I had to go home and get my Snap On breaker bar with a long cheater pipe to get the wheel nuts loose. When I got home I loosed all wheel nuts with a impact. I could barely get them loose! Then torqued properly with a wrench. I just put new premium rotors and pads on my Rigdeline and they worked perfectly. That is until I had the 2 front tires replaced. Within 3 months the front rotors were warped. Then I realized and checked the lug nuts and they were grossly over tightened. The invoice said "Torque wheels to spec." I have been burned to many times by crappy work done by shops from cross threaded drain plug, over tightened oil filters, over tightened or loose spark plugs, bad alignments, you name it. Virtually everything a shop has done has been loused up in some way or another. I do all my own maintenance and repairs now, Saves money but more importantly it is done correctly. Unfortunately from my experience the automotive repiar industry's has a reputation of doing poor quality work and taking advantage of unsupecting customers. "Trust but verify" is a saying that also applies to anyone having work done to their vehicle or they will likely get screwed.
As a technician myself, I have also adopted the light impact style with a torque wrench follow-up. It is a good method, and the other techs in my shop have also adopted this (sometimes against their will lol). If I remember correctly torque sticks are supposed to be used in the same manner, however they are supposed to stop you from going over. You still have to properly torque the lug nut with a torque wrench.
I've seen them being used as a crutch so to speak, and I've heard many techs over the years say that is good enough. I don't believe that and I'm not going to. Torque wrench on a lug nut is the ONLY way in my opinion.
I also primarily use Air except when i'm working outside. I personally think the electric impacts are really heavy and they just don't give you the feel that an air impact does. Everyone is different, maybe one day I'll switch, but for now im sticking with air. On the other hand all my other air tools have been replaced with electric tools.
Awesome video! Thanks for all that you do to keep the automotive industry honest, and help spread the message that a lot of techs/shop genuinely want to do the right thing!
You are correct 💯 and a follow up in 2-500 miles (aluminum wheels mainly but all ) at least have someone check. Never know but it also shows that you care!
I've been taught when using torque sticks to watch when the socket stops moving and not to keep hitting it past that point or the impacts can actually overtorque it.
Twenty years ago when I owned a shop, we used torque sticks. I bought a name brand, don't remember which, from one of the guys in a tools truck. The first instruction that came with the set was how to calibrate the impact gun. The sticks are only accurate when the input torque from the gun is at a specified value. If the input torque is too high, the stick twist will not be able to absorb the excess torque. An aside: I think your run an excellent operation. I'll bet for you "The Right Way" is the "Only Way".
Like John Martin, who commented before me, I found that I had to Throttle Down my Ingersoll Rand model 231 so as to not overdrive my torque sticks. I simply use the regulator in the forward and reverse button on my Ingersoll Rand pneumatic gun. The built-in regulator goes from 0 to 5. I had to set the regulator down to number two for them to work properly. The torque sticks like the old 1960s Chrysler torsion bar suspension. They'll only work with a gun that gives intermittent impacts. The bars have to spring back between the impacts of the gun to limit the torque. I suspect that the electric guns' impacts do not have sufficient pause interval between impacts to allow the torque sticks to spring back.
Thanks for taking the time out of your weekend to so this. My default method was impact them on loosely, lower the car then go around it twice with the torque wrench. If the nut didn't move, it'd get backed off and then done with the torque wrench. Eventually went to torque sticks with the Milwaukee electric. Definitely didnt feel right compared to having used torque sticks with air many years ago. After a bit of testing had concluded that electric beats too quickly on the torque stick and will definitely lead to going a fair bit past the rating of the stick. Have reverted back to original method and i sleep better at night! 😅 I'd be curious to see what torque stick manufacturers have to say about using the more modern electronic impacts on them. For now, I'll join the club and spend the extra minute or two and know it's done right. 🙂
Electric impacts have a higher impact rate which doesnt allow the torque stick to flex back properly, which is what causes the overtorque compared to air impact guns
Buy appropriate torque sticks for electric impact drivers.
We own a tire shop (Ingham Family Tire) here in Mason, MI and purchased torque sticks thinking they'd save us time on the installs. Thankfully we have enough sense to not to take "as advertised" at face value. After running through a series of test, we have concluded that torque sticks are (1) Unreliable in the amount of torque being applied, and (2) On multiple occasions torqued dangerously low compared to the stick's rating. For example of an 80 ft lb torque stick, we were reliably (at 150psi, the spec for the sticks,) torqueing down to only 46-65 ft lbs. After the series of tests we ran, we concluded that torque sticks are garbage... Dangerous (due to under-torqueing,) and add liability (due to potential over-torqueing or under-torqueing). Stick what has been tried and true: Use a torque wrench, and ensure you have someone else double-checks your work.
I agree with your system 100% just drive by a tire shop and listen to the way they tighten wheels and we could go about the stories of wheel lugs we have replaced because of over torquing not to mention rotors keep up the good work I’m encouraged thank you very much god bless
Agreed they pound the heck out of them, I took a car to get a set of tires and they started yell break out the heat wrench, I said your not using that on my car are you? He said yeah you got locking lugs, I said the keys in the trunk with the spare, he said we can't find it, so I showed him it was on the lug wrench 😂
thanks for this. our volunteer shop trusts the torque sticks on a 1/2 milwaukee cordless. i'll be sure to advocate for a change back to air and following with a torque wrench
Thank you for putting this out there. I used to use an impact to put wheels but now I realize how unprofessional that is for all the reasons you explained so well. Now I install wheels exactly the way you all do, it's a great efficient way to do it with accuracy.
Ive been a mechanic for 36 years…, 100 percent agree with you! Quality, safety first., I snug them and then hand torque the wheels( The correct way) keep smiling
Thanks for this. You don't appreciate torqueing the lug nuts on properly until after you've had a wheel come off at freeway speeds because the studs all sheared off like I have had. Fortunately, I had 19 other wheels (10-axle semi), but it was a little nerve wracking seeing a 500-lb wheel rolling down the road past me possibly causing an accident on the dark, steep canyon freeway I was on.
Had a Goodyear dealership "forque" me yrs. ago and strip 3 studs, I hand thread, use a 3/8"speed handle and torque to manufacturers specs. Another GOOD Video! It adds 1 min per wheel! Your dead nuts ON as Always! Keep up the good work!
Haven’t watched video yet. But as a shop owner it’s torque wrench only for us. Going to watch!
Back about 40 or so years ago the local tire store, and others I'd wager, used the impact to run the nuts up and then check the torque with a torque wrench. On my way home the rotor was warped. I drove it that way understanding that the wheel was "torqued". Having had drum brakes on all 4's before that the impact gun was never an issue. Interesting video. Thanks. P.S. I'm over here from South Main. One thing I have to say is that eye protection is a good thing when you're using an air impact. P.P.S. Air impacts only.
Great to see Tristan & Michael learning from the master! 👍🏼
I’m not a mechanic, just interested in gaining knowledge for light diy stuff. Thank you for doing this video, it was educational for me 😃. Good to see the family working together 😊.
Good job. You are a dedicated mechanic
Loved this video and I viewed it tonight after buying some new tools recently. Sherwood, you absolutely nailed it, , , er torqued it! I was taught how to torque by locomotive engine mechanical engineers early in my career as a railroad diesel engine instructor. Great bunch of guys trained me at a locomotive manufacturing facility. I also did a side-hustle as an auto mechanic and loved both jobs. The mechanical engineers told me torque wrenches then were about 70% accurate back then. At age 68, about two weeks ago (before I knew of you and subscribed to your channel), I decided it was finally time to try a cordless impact gun. I bought one from Amazon that was compatible to Makita batteries along with a package of torque sticks. The gun was nowhere near the torque advertised and neither were the torque sticks. When I followed up with my torque wrench, I got the same results you did. So, I returned the torque sticks. Since the gun was more of a snugga dugga gun and less of an ugga dugga gun, I returned that too and got a cordless gun with bigger ugga duggas! Love the new cordless gun. I love your channel! Glad I found you guys in the past two weeks.
Best Wishes and Take Care,
Tom
im a certifed marine tech. In our shop we do the same. elec or air gun run in the nut. than torque wrench. Trailer than gets road tested if all good upon inspection it is retorqued than vessel is washed and detailed.... nowadays with alloy and special types of materials the wheels are made off. Proper torque to spec is required. They aint steel wheels of yester years, back than i used air and still got my full set off snap on sticks still in my toolbox (aint used them for 20yrs).
Hi I enjoy watching your videos I found the same thing when I loosen the wheels but I think it’s our reaction time waiting for the digital reaction to stop,I found the click type to be more consistent because when it clicks the torque wrench doesn’t apply torque for a second I’m a 40 year technician
luv your guys attention to detail!
I’ll add my technique: use a torque stick and impact gun to get you close, but not over, the targeted final torque quickly. Torque sticks are not highly precise instruments, so size down when using them to account for impact gun differences in impacts per minute, hammer mass and how that particular impact gun will interact with a given torque stick torsional stiffness.
1. Select a torque stick one size below the target torque spec. Meaning, use an 80 ft-lb stick for a 100 ft-lbf torque target.
2. With the wheel off the ground…Maintain a light trigger finger on the impact gun…meaning, immediately stop applying torque once you hear/notice a sound change/stick movement change as torque is being applied. Applying torque past the sound change point overrides the torque stick value due to factors like impacts per minute of the gun and resonant torsional frequency of the stick. Those extra seconds of applying torque past the sound change/movement change point are the source of over torquing.
3. Put the wheel on the ground and Finish off the correct torque value with the torque wrench…meaning take the torque from somewhere around 80 ft-lbf to the 100 Ft-lbf target…works every time.
I imagine once you get the feel for the proper trigger release point, you can try using the correct size torque stick (not sizing down) for the target torque, but you have to experiment first since each impact gun and torque stick combination will likely produce different final torque values.
Your helpers are awesome.
This is awesome that you involve the kids! Hoiwever to the subject toss all torqx sticks in the trash!! I have never seen them to be consistent and especially over long term use! the wrench is the only real true way with a known good wernch that has been properly cared for and routinely tested for accuracy. GReat video to show why they are trash
I’m dealing with the issue right now of a tech not torquing my wheels correctly. After 25 plus years as a driveability tech and hotline tech and finally an instructor at UTI. I am disabled and wheelchair bound, I had a tire replaced at a shop and not only did it not get balanced correctly as I have a shake at higher speeds it developed a brake shutter and it has never had it before. The thing is it doesn’t show up right away most times and I have drilled and slotted rotors to help dissipate the heat. I know it was caused by improper torque of the wheel. It’s a 2004 Toyota Sequoia and also before the slip on rotor days we could get away with impacting wheels on because rotors were huge slabs of steel.
have both electric and air the old CP 734 still works beautifully along with a couple SnapOn too and depends on the place and availability of air as to where I use each but I prefer air or did when I was still in the shop. At my home shop I prefer air too.
Thanks for this video and confirming the best way to torque on lug nuts (as of right now, there may be a future tool that works properly).
My wheel torque procedure with my business was similar to yours, except that i would run the nuts in with light to medium force with a torque stick. Then go back and hand torque. I would always use the torque stick that was closest to the specified torque without going over. The torque wrench would always move slightly to bring the nut up to the specified torque.
Great content. I use my Makita XWT18, on setting 2 for lug nuts. On my Rav 4, I use a 65ft-# stick to tighten, drop the car down, then use a torque wrench to click up to 76ft-#. Works great.
You proved what I already knew about torque sticks; they can't be trusted. Your Sunday helpers are very cute, BTW 😂
Thx for the test. The battery pack makes such a big variation and changes when full vs half charge. Also with high output batteries, it’s just all over the place. The reason why cordless ends up tighter is because of the higher impacts per minute because of how the way electric motor impacts woek compared to air. The torque trst channel had a video explaining this using a high speed camera. The pneumatic at least will have consistent input energy. If in a shop in a bay, air is great, gun is light and small. Only time cordless wins is mobile mechanics or u need super high torque approaching 2k ftlb
It takes a little longer but my shop finger tightens. Our air guns have "adjustable air restricters" on them so the tighten enough to center the wheel and we hand torque after. We started doing this years ago primary because we got tied of being accused and having to repair free damaged studs taking the wheels off to do other stuff after a "tire center" rotated the tires last. Wheels put on properly come off properly. We also tried using tourque sticks at one point only to find they were inaccurate.
Uk guy here. Been working on old land rovers for years.
I use a low power electric gun with an impact socket to snug the wheel nuts down, then use the torque wrench.
I use my snap on 1/2" air impact everyday. Electric only when i gotta do a job outside
First video I've seen from you guys but I definitely like what I saw and will continue to watch your content. Other videos on torque sticks I've seen they tell you to let go of the trigger once you see the nut stop moving and, on electrics, put the wrench on the closest setting to the rating of the torque stick. I guess maybe this helps to make sure you don't go over the rating and keeps it more consistent.
you are pretty scientific about this. Thanks for making this video.
I still use an air 1/2 impact. All others, 3/8 impact and ratchets I use both air and cordless, I still use the air occasionally just because I have them. Here in the rust belt the back side of aluminum wheels on vehicles a few years old or older, have to be cleaned every time the wheel comes off or they don't get torqued correctly, either useing torque sticks or torqueing by hand. The corrosion that occurs between the wheel and the rotor actually will make the lugs tighter in some cases too.
Love to see men teaching the next generation of men. Awesome
First off, I don't even own any torque sticks and never will. Wheel torque, or improperly torquing, is one of my pet peeves. Seen way to many people ugga dugga them on then go around and "click" with the torque wrench and call it "torqued". Granted, I will remove wheels with my air gun and protective socket but going back on I don't use air. I use a speeder and socket to seat the lug nut by hand and then everything gets torqued by hand in 2-3 steps. I've been wrenching for 35+ years and that is how I've always torqued wheels on.
Secondly, I commend you for getting the kids involved and teaching them properly.
Mike
When I worked for Honda, a field service engineer told me personally to use torque sticks that were either made by Honda or made specifically for Honda. Then to use the preset torque wrenches. I was given a 90ft lbs torque wrench for the smaller lugs (I think for all the ones that used 19mm) and I think it was 110ft lbs for the bigger cars. I never got torque sticks but would tighten the lugs at the lowest possible setting on my air impact and would then torque with the preset wrench. I still use air to this day. Call me old school but I feel more comfortable with air.
I still use the air impact and torque sticks to install, which is close but under torqued. Go for a short test drive and retorque by hand. Never an issue.
i watch a lot of you tube channels and have learned a lot your channel does the very best explaining. i watch watch wes work, Ivan at PHAD and Eric south main auto and some others you are first class and so far always respond if i have a question thanks so much for the hard work and effort you put into this. i have a few youtube videos have a hard time making the time to record. i enjoy draw testing. will always remember the first draw test was one of the newer VW Beetles took a while to understand the wiring but found and fixed. i still have couple air tools but hardly ever use them
Great video always wondered if I should buy torque sticks speed up work but for me be sticking to torque wrench ❤
I had a lot of issues with lug nuts coming loose even with a torque wrench on aluminum/alloy wheels. Those wild changes in measurements I believe comes from wheel flex. Now I torque them on the lift with the wheels just touching, shaking the wheel to make sure it centers. Torque them again with it on the ground. And then drive for 5 minutes and then check the torque.
so 16 yrs in the tool business. Here are 2 things that everyone should realize. Torque sticks do not work with a cordless impact due to the clutch. They are designed to work with air impacts. 2nd, if you actually read the instructions on a torque stick, you are supposed to regulate the air pressure to 90psi. so you should have a in line regulator on the bottom of your gun or on that air line end. The reason for both these rules is torque sticks use tensile strength to stop turning and applying torque and instead the beam starts twisting.
I use the newest Matco air impact on the second lowest setting and do my initial tightening on the lugnuts with the closest rating torque stick to the vehicle’s spec. Obviously using either equal to or lower than spec. Never over. I usually get about a quarter turn out of the torque wrench before it clicks. Seems to work well for me.. I’ve found that with most modern impacts if you use torque sticks with them cranked all the way up you’ll over tighten the lugs every time.
I've vehicle tech from the 70-2016 snap on first came with the torque sockets set in the 80s colors were green 65ft, orange 85ft blue 100ft, black 120ft and white 140ft. The green orange and blue for alum rim white and black for steel rims in my time. We also found out throw time if your compressor did not have enough CFM your torque will be all over the place. Also your impact the older it become will change torque. The same as elect impacts in the cold. The elect impact I found to work the best in snap on and Mac. But all in all your torque wrench will always the best way to go.
I do all of ours except for our aircraft tugs when tires are put on. Every time the company does it and I’m not there I have at least 4 bad studs. I know so many guys who for decades said the same as what you’ve heard mostly because they don’t understand the reason for torque specs, they only get a part of it, and refuse to learn new things
I just wanted to say i learn alot from you guys and i enjoyed this experiment and i cant wait to learn more from you guys i already watched every video you guys posted im 23 and i just opened my mobile mechanic business in chicago also currently going to lincoln tech and its shops like yours that inspired me to get into this business with the honesty and the knowledge and im greatful to learn from you guys and in every video ypu post i learn something i wouldnt mind seeing more experiments or diag videos those help alot even tho i enjoy all the videos but keep up the great videos i cant wait fo the next one
We appreciate that man! We think you’ll like the next video with a blinker issue on an Acadia. We will see you on that one! Thanks for all your support and we wish you nothing but the best on your business endeavors!
@@theroyaltyautoservice we all appreciate you as well for teaching us all the right way to do things and yes that would be something i would love to see cant wait! and thank ypu im doimg the best as one can i actually follow ypu on tiktok you guys motivated me to start my tiktok josephs mobile mechanic so again thank you glad you guys made a youtube!
Great buddy system and prevents mistakes especialy from rushing. Going all the way back to the late 80s I learned the importance of torquing and doing it by just snuggine up and then a min of 2 step torquing to 50% then to 100% or 3 step. Many would laugh at me yet I laughed last after they had comebacks with vibration from warping and I never had any issue. Never forget the long way is the short way.
its the jobe done one correctly and done. only comebacks are part failures or hones mistakes simple as that
Gentlemen I really appreciate your video! I'm always happy to see other tools. I've always wondered about torque wrenches. I do my own work on my car. I was trying to figure out recently why the torque specs say 59 ft lbs. Then 120 °. I was looking at one example of almost 181ft lbs. Only after a 60° turn. For a lower control thrust arm. As researching this. I found that a torque Adapter has only a 2% variant. I don't use either air or electric impacts. Id love to have them. I'm wondering if you put a air or electric impact tool maybe a better way? Thanks again for your time and video!
I have air impact for when its needed but most of the time with hondas atleast my milwaukee 3/8 or 1/2 imapcts are fine. Usually use 1/2 to remove lugs and put the 3/8's on 2 to snug the lugs then hand torque on the ground
Maybe a beam type torque wrench should be tried when removing the wheel for testing purposes
I recently started using a torque wrench. At work we have those exact torque sticks except its astro pneumatic branded. I found with ours the torque sticks was lower compared to my torque wrench(1/2 SK Torque Wrench click type).
I wish we highlight that the importance of proper torquing is really about Customer Safety. Most lug nuts I've encountered are OVER torqued because of lack of attention or proper use of tools. When a lug nut is over torqued, it is simply impossible to loosen using the tire iron provided in the car's spare tire's kit; it's usually a cheapo, 12-inch long straight bar with lug socket size. I've been on the side of the road helping friends and family try to take off their flat tire using the car provided tools - mostly failures resulting me my having to go home and return with better wrenches. Imagine doing this on a cold, northeast night - just sucks.
My comment on the experiment is KEEP IT SIMPLE. As an engineer, I'd love to see the result using a simpler test: The stated video objective was to "test and compare torque sticks" (I'll abbreviate using t-stick and t-wrench for brevity) Take a calibrated t-wrench, one tire lug, pick one tire lug hole on the wheel and the t-stick you want to investigate. Drive the t-stick with the t-wrench and observe when they each reach the intended torque. Keep adjusting the setting on the t-wrench until they both reach the 'click or beep'. When they do, you'll know what the t-stick's actual torque accuracy is. Do this a few times to get more samples but do not change or introduce anything else into the experiment. If they 'click/beep' at different times, then loosen the lug nut and set the t-wrench to a lower or higher value until they sound off at the same time. The resulting torque value is how much the t-stick differs from the original targeted torque setting.
To find the "break-away torque" value for that particular bolt and lug hole setup: (1) Torque the bolt to a set value, (2) paint the head of the lug nut/bolt to help see when it moves (3) slowly increase the torque setting on t-wrench until it "clicks/beeps" at the moment the bolt started rotating. (4) Repeat this several times to know what the break- away torque value is for that combination of lug nut/bolt, and hole. This way you can reduce the impact wrench results by this value
The combination of t-sticks and impact tools will be different so each paired combination of these needs to be separately tested as you did. Reduce the value measured by the calibrated t-wrench when the lug first moves by the break-away valued learned in the prior step.
I have professional experience designing tests (military products); I understand that it is important to eliminate as many variables as possible that could change the test outcomes - keeping it simple is vital for consistent and dependable results. Hope this helps..m
Cheers..marcel
My comment on the experiment is KEEP IT SIMPLE. As an engineer, I'd love to see the result using a simpler test: The stated video objective was to "test and compare torque sticks" (I'll abbreviate using t-stick and t-wrench for brevity) Take a calibrated t-wrench, one tire lug, pick one tire lug hole on the wheel and the t-stick you want to investigate. Drive the t-stick with the t-wrench and observe when they each reach the intended torque. Keep adjusting the setting on the t-wrench until they both reach the 'click or beep'. When they do, you'll know what the t-stick's actual torque accuracy is. Do this a few times to get more samples but do not change or introduce anything else into the experiment. If they 'click/beep' at different times, then loosen the lug nut and set the t-wrench to a lower or higher value until they sound off at the same time. The resulting torque value is how much the t-stick differs from the original targeted torque setting.
To find the "break-away torque" value for that particular bolt and lug hole setup: (1) Torque the bolt to a set value, (2) paint the head of the lug nut/bolt to help see when it moves (3) slowly increase the torque setting on t-wrench until it "clicks/beeps" at the moment the bolt started rotating. (4) Repeat this several times to know what the break- away torque value is for that combination of lug nut/bolt, and hole. This way you can reduce the impact wrench results by this value
The combination of t-sticks and impact tools will be different so each paired combination of these needs to be separately tested as you did. Reduce the value measured by the calibrated t-wrench when the lug first moves by the break-away valued learned in the prior step.
Thank you for confirming that the way I do it is the best way.
When I sold MAC tools I refused to put torque sticks on my truck. And I will not allow anyone to use them on my vehicles. That has led to some arguments over the years.
Could part of the reason for the erratic readings when checking the tightness torque be what I heard (dry non lubricated squeak) when you free spun the lug nuts? Maybe try again after having lubricated all of the lug nuts? Just thinking out of the box.
Snug 'em, torque 'em. Rest easy.
Still use 1/2" air, tighten lug nuts on speed one, ( approx 80 ftlbs ) then hand torque, checking for some movement of lug nut while torquing. Pretty old school, but it still rocks...
If I use Milwaukee wrench I snug it with the wrench and final torque with a torque wrench. Some milwaukee guns have different settings when tightening a fastener.
To get the right torque, I would suggest using 785 Parting Lubricant
Ceramic-Based, High Performance Anti-Seize/Thread Lubricant from AW Chesterton. Years ago I sold these products for industrial plants. Chesterton did extensive research on threads after torque to the right amount.
I was taught with the air gun to put it on the lowest setting when using the torque sticks.
Was the Milwaukee gun set to the third or 4th position? I know when you loosen in the 4th position it will slow down when less torque is detected. I’ll test tightening in 4th setting tomorrow to see. Always use the second setting and never had a problem over tightening studs. Comes in around 150 ft lb with fully charged 9amp hour battery, depending on short or deep socket. Cool video
I use second setting on my Makita 1/2" for tightening as well.
I know what the issue is with the torque sticks during these tests, the air impacts are being used in a high impact mode, directions should’ve stated to reduce the torque on the gun to reduce the impact torque through the stick.
I'd like to see an experiment on how extensions affect the torque wrench. Extensions are necessary when using flip sockets or for dually wheels.
Extensions do not effect torque because you are applying torsional force and it is transferred to the socket and the nut as you twist the wrench. It may take more rotation but the torque applied is the same. Force applied to one end is equal to the force applied to the socket on the other end it just takes more travel of the wrench applying the twist. Hope that makes sense
@@CodycoWeb I have to disagree. Multiple times I've been unable to remove a lug nut with a long extension. Removing the extension or choosing a shorter one allows the nut to come off effortlessly. The extension was absorbing some of the torque from the impact. It's probably why torque sticks are so long.
@@jeanenviedapprendre you are not impacting with the torque wrench.
I have been using a 65 lbf-ft torque stick with an air impact on low, then hand torquing (to 80 or 103 depending on which car) after dropping the car down on the ground. I now have an electric impact driver with selectable output force, so I will use that on medium (no stick), then hand torque.
In this video they proved that electric gun has higher frequency of impact so it doesn't allow the torque stick to retract enough (retracting is required for the torque limiting feature)so the torque stick doesn't do its job correctly with electric gun - you end up overtorquing. Should be fine with air impact. th-cam.com/video/JVY0e5sdWx4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wAzMrGj5OgVrDsy1 Another takeaway I got from another source - a seasoned master tech who now teaches diagnostics at a local college - torquesticks are not very accurate in the number rated but they bring about uniform torque around the wheel, which is key for good health of brake rotor, and proper rotation of the wheel. also able to finish torquing while car still on the lift.He swears by them used with air impact. Again what you guys do is the best (torque wrench), but flateraters just look for shortcuts, otherwise can't make a decent living. Kick the can of removing the lugnut to the next person.
My question is how often are you recalibrating your torque wrench’s? I worked on helicopters in the Marine Corps for 20 years, and our torque wrench’s were recalibrated once or twice a year. We also had to zero out the torque wrench after every use, and if the torque wrench ever got dropped it had to be recalibrated again.
as an ase master tech I really enjoyed watching the kid 🙂
Aircraft mechanics / technicians get paid by the hour. Thanks for the vid. I will start zipping on my lug nuts with a 3/8 pneumatic.
When your torqueing the lug nut your stretching the stud to an engineered value (torque specification) not overstretching them and than they dont spring back (permanently stretched) threads are distorted beyond limit. It takes more force to tighten the spring than to release the spring thats why it takes less torque to loosen the lug nuts The spring tension when the stud is torqued is what provides the clamping force
As for air vs. electric, I still use air for the majority of my work. I do have a few cordless Snap-on and Milwaukee tools but I'm still old school and prefer air in many applications.
Mike
All I know is that I carry a battery operated rattle gun in my car as I have arthritis & removing & tightening up the wheel nuts on the side of the road in the wind/rain/day or night whatever the gun stops at is tight enough for me & I know that the wheel is not coming off.
Can u show the difference between impact andd chrome lugs and short and deep and the different tool speeds
I must have some awesome torque sticks that purchased from Harbor Freight. They consistently under torque. My lugs always require about a 1/8 turn to hear the torque wrench click.
EXCELLENT TEST !!!!! IN THE SHOP, ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION, SPECIALLY USING AIR TOOLS ????????
Thumbs up to getings the younguns involved
I use the Milwaukee fuel 1/2" I actually start with my 1/4" drive then snug it down with the 1/2 " and finish with my 1/2" CDI torque wrench. I pretty much rely on the 1/2" inch to remove lugs. But definitely electric and I use the husky 3/8 drive ratchet for light work.
With the loosing differential, could the thread pitch have anything to do with it?
i think, is one more thing that we have to consider. Short or long socket?
An old tech told me,that, for torque wrenches, Short sockets makes the jod,more accurate. But ,I haven't test this theory yet.
Fifty plus years working on cars both as a professional and hobbyist. Impacts are good for dismantling suspensions and other large, tight fasteners but not much else. I use an electric gun to lightly seat lug bolts/nuts and then out come the torque wrench. There are no shortcuts if the goal is quality.
I use a 1/2 electric or air I just turn down the setting so its 10-20 lbs lower than the specification and than finish it off with the torque wrench and it needs to turn the lug nut usually 1/4 to 1/2 a turn to reach the specfied torque
When using a torque stick read the instructions your are supposed to calibrate (the air pressure at the impact is also a variable maybe use a air pressure regulator)the impact setting with the selected torque stick with a torque wrench and than periodically recheck and recalibrate as needed I think you would have gotten more accurate results
Seen lots of ugha dugha, and sticks. Never seen torque wrench on a lug nut. I always tighten by hand. My rorors always get changed with brake repair.
i am not mechanic and i had been using same stubby 3/8” to loose and lightly tighten it and use torque wrench to all my hondas
19mm 80ft lb
22mm 95 ft lb
I use name brand tools I do not cut corners when it comes down to torquing down wheels. I use electric to put the wheel on but I use a torque wrench to finish. I use air on everything inside the shop except in the vehicle.
Very interesting.
I understand that they work when used with air tools because they were designed with the hammering frequency of the air impact tools, the electric impact tools have higher frequencies and will not work correctly, they tend to over torque when using an electric impact, a way to mitigate is to set if possible the electric impact on the lowest speed and choose a torque stick thats a bit under the number u want to reach so u wanna torque to 100nm choose a 90nm stick and set the electric impact on lowest speed ... Or something along those lines experiment and see what works for ur tools.
Would a fluctuation in air pressure have an influence?
How about the duration of application?
i use the milwaukee 3/8 mid torque battery for lugs for first tightening
I am a DYI. I have a cheap Ryobi impact in the truck of every car and a torque stick... (my Toyota's have a 75 ft-lb for subaru 90 ft-lbs) for on the road emergency better and guessing. At home... always use a Torque wrench.
Forget the impacts for setting torque. Use them to snug the nuts - way below the final target. Hand torque to 50%, then again at 100%. This will remove variables like imperfect threads and grit on the mating surfaces.
For a 80 I use 65 torque stick then finish with a torque wrench 80. That way you prevent over torquing.
What brand pants is the boss wearing - I'm looking for a new job and like those
Truewerk pants.
Breakaway tourque should be consistent even though it’s always going to be lower, there is a formula to allow you to estimate initial tourque value.