“The 6.4 could be a fantastic engine. It just needs to owned by only two kinds of people. One’s an old man and the other is a mechanic.” I knew it was comin. My 6.4 got 196,000 miles and counting. But I drive like an old man and I’m a half way mechanic
@@itsdanimusic8395 I haven’t seen ran into that yet but my uncle’s 6.4 had oil leaking from the rear main seal which he had to replace. Mine also has a leak from the rear main but that’s the only leaking I’ve noticed so far
Mines got 230 on it and I drive the fuck outta it , not even gonna lie I work o. The road and I’ve had it for 2 years and it had 174k when I got it and them 60k I’ve put on it have been some hard miles lol and I’ve only replaced my water pump once my driver up pipe Once and my map sensors she runs like a champ and it’s my daily 🤷♂️
Thanks for your content. I bought one in a 2010 by mistake at an auction not knowing which gen was what. Now I have to learn. Hard to follow a guy with jumping around issues or back and forth. Maybe follow an outline and not memory. My 2 cents.
I really appreciate you fellas posting this or simply taking the time to make this episode. I daily drive my own 08 6.4 King Ranch crew bad with 8’ bed. Currently has 265,000 miles but the last 100,000 have been with issues. Burping coolant overflow. Here’s what is weird, I’ve done 2 separate leak down test that resulted in no blown head gaskets, my oil temp and coolant stay with 5 degrees of each other under load with a loaded dump trailer hauling tear off from roofing. NOT LEGAL AND I DONT DO THIS KNOWINGLY, OFTEN, but last time the axles and tires on my 7x14 dump trailer with raised side walls, the f’er was squatted!! Truck pulled it through town, speeds never got above 10-15mph but it did it no problem. Heater blows cold and coolant spews from overflow if topped off and under heavy load or driven hard and fast with no trailer. I’ve had local shops try and diagnose and all say the same, even tho leak down test and oil and coolant temps are within 5 degrees at all times you have a blown head gasket. I’m getting ready to remove the cab and rebuild as I love this truck. Interior is mint and it’s the normal 08 king ranch saddle leather with buckets up front and 2 buckets in rear with center consoles in both. I love the truck and will never get rid of her. My intentions are to remove cab and bed and do frame up resto, get her back to when I bought her and looking gorgeous! Not blowing smoke but my King Ranch is the best looking one I’ve ever seen with the chrome and just the right factory lift that I can run Toyos AT’s and my god I get compliments still today 15 years later. I will own this truck till I die and your info here is excellent. So, thank you guys!!! There are many of us 6.4 diehards out there. Ps……mine has EGR delete and programmed and there is even today NO TRUCK IN GRESHAM THAT CAN TOUCH OR EVEN COMPETE WITH MY 2008 6.4, even smokes new sports cars, she’s FAST and untouchable. 🤩🙌😎😁👍
Brilliant. I’ve owned a 7.3 J have a first Gen 6.0 built 12/02 original owner 545 thousand miles NEVER touched it. No studs no bullet proof towed up to 40 thousand lbs weekly. 3 previous 6.7. Current one with one of your motors and picking up my new to me twin to the truck I have today. Never owned a 6.4 but can totally appreciate and understand your tutorial on the engine best used as a boat anchor you must really love your work to go so far in depth !
So I put 197,000 on mine. Stock form dpf and egr's. No coolant leaks original radiator and all. Only issue was the ebp sensor in all that time. In 2016 the hpfp went out. Bought a new fuel system, new heads from UCF, Valve train components, bpd water pump, oil cooler, BD mans and up pipes. Now I have another 70,000 on it and it still runs good. Original turbos also.
The 6.4 is a great engine but not in the stock configuration. A tune focused on efficiency and deleting the emissions programming and not on putting in a ton of timing and removing the DPF and EGR and it'll likely run for a long time.
Even if you delete the emissions they're still ass. Parts are expensive, the water pump eats through the cover, the heads crack and warp, the rods aren't bushed, the radiators leak constantly, and they get horrible economy even deleted. I had one. It got 13 mpg deleted with street tires.
This is comming to you now Dec 10 2023 my 08 6.4 was stamped Jan 08. I deleted all that failed Goverment science prodject on emission control as soon as the wornty was up. At abought 90K the front cover went as well as the rear seal then that was covered by wornty. Then after that I did the deletes. I was told to get rid of it. But I'm still driving it. With 140K miles now on it. Hell its an 08 its the end of 2023 she feel great, looks great. But I'm looking for a set of the Bulletproof valve covers with the extra oil injectors built in with all the nessary hardware and hook up instructions. Befor I have lifter isues. Or when I tackle all the re and re under the valve covers I would love to get a set of those modified valve covers Bill at Bulletproof was talking adout a while back.I love this truck❤. I have heard all the isues. As well I heard reducing service to 5K intervals is a good idea and I have always done that. But living in western Canada its hard to find these cool after market products. Or to just get them across the border$$$. Any way I'm looking to keep this truck or go broke doing it😂😂😂👍
Getting rid of my 2009 6.4 was the best decision I’ve ever made, nothing but heartache and wallet break on that truck. Bought it new treated it like gold when it comes to maintenance and it failed several times even at low miles.
6.4 is a power house with the fuel System and turbo capability. Lots of potential but longevity was short. They were known to make oil lol aka fuel dilution. I do like a well sorted 6.0 liter with O ring heads and studs. The bottom ends of the 6.0/6.4 are pretty stout with strong crank and rods. 6.0 pistons seemed to fair pretty well. The cylinder head on 6.4 used a 16mm vs 14mm on a 6.0 but the real improvement was the cylinder head castings. You didn’t get good clamping as you got away from the fastener where you needed it most on the 18mm 6.0 heads. The later 6.4 heads had beefier gussets which helped transmit the clamping force around the cylinder for more even distribution. Lifter failure in my own opinion was the fact that each lifter operated a bridge and two valves it was under a lot of load. I think if you did 5000 mile oil changes your chances were better. My camshaft at 250k was wearing hard on the lobes through the surface hardening. That Siemens K16 pump seemed to have a decent amount of headway. It wasn’t very robust but it could move a good amount more fuel than the 350hp rating of the motors
Best fix is to remove it and put in a Cummins. I think Bill at Powerstroke help said 8 out of 10 he bought for cores had bent cranks. We saw two with bent cranks at my shop.
Why do some 08 6.4 F350's have a external oil filter on the transmission and others don't. I have seen videos on changing the trans oil filter but nothing on the external toilet paper tupe filter whats up with that?
Are you saying everyone that bought one of these new or used should be involved in a class action lawsuit especially those that are in areas that are forced to keep the failed missions control systems. Then bypassing this with aftermarket systems in an attempt to help get some longevity out of these vehicles that are now being fined through the EPA for trying to correct these issues that Ford should have admitted fault to.
The 6.4 Power Stroke: A predictable outcome from the confluence of breaking your effort's own legs with limited budget, asking your roommate to take notes for you, cramming for the final test, and ending up having to redo the last year while your roommate moves on.
You forgot to add the correlation between the high timing in these tunes and cylinder pressure. I’ve built many 14 liter Cummins engines and cat engines. Both engines will crack pistons when adding fuel and faster timing. Yes it makes power but sadly cracking is the side effect. That’s why I Retard the injection timing to lower overall cylinder pressure. Great vid btw
@@Bacongrease00 anything will fail. Key is making it last as long as possible. I’ve seen tons of 6.7’s have main and rod bearing issues along with L5P duramax’s window the blocks before their second oil change. You get good and bad engines in every bunch. Like rolling the dice honestly.
@@6.4DieselDoctor I thought your comment was insinuating that these cracked pistons were because of high timing in tunes. Which is true but I was just stating many 6.4 have cracked pistons on stock tunes. The 6.0 really didn’t have that issue with pistons intetesting enough
6.0/6.4 bottom ends are robust. The crank and rods are beefy. The 6.4 rod can take a lot of power it’s usually the low end torque that hurts them if your running compounds and big fuel.
My 09 6.4l has given me NO problems since purchasing brand new. Delete at 120K, and I use all the Archoil oil and fuel additives religiously! Absolutely change fluids correctly, use only Motorcraft parts!!!!! Now: I am chasing my first issue ever, I’m my own mechanic and I know this truck inside and out. This issue has me lost, but I know I’ll fix it hopefully before anything worse. 16mpg hwy/ in town😡
Okay so to summarize, dont tune it to something stupid, install a coolant filter to keep sand out of the system, remove DPF and EGR components. Regular fuel filter and maintenance and she should be good to go? Mines got 400k km on it, Ive done a lot of work to it including the things i just listed. Any other preventative work you might recommend?
Just my opinion, fuel additive to lubricate the pump in every tank can’t hurt. Good oil and an oil additive every time can’t hurt either. It’s what I do. 196,000 miles so far
@@outcastfisherman6991 What sort of fuel/oil additives do you recommend? Theres so many that offer a variety of benefits, is there any grouping that you've stuck with?
@@garrylarose1506 I have been using Hotshots brand Everyday Diesel Treatment for fuel (one ounce per tank). I have used one bottle of Diesel Extreme Fuel system cleaner, but I don’t use it anymore. I had no issues with it, but I have heard a couple of stories about it causing injector issues. So I stopped using it just in case. As for oil I have used Hotshots Stiction Eliminator. Engine sounds a little better than before, I get less smoke from the tailpipe. So Hotshots has been good to me, but I will be switching to Archoil as an experiment. I’ve heard a lot of good about their products. So I will soon be purchasing Archoil Friction Modifier and Diesel Treatment. I’ve heard that oil additive isn’t necessary as long as you use a good synthetic/blend or full synthetic oil ( I use motorcraft or shell rotella t5) and change oil religiously. But I like the idea of extra lubricity in the entire system. At the very least use a diesel fuel additive in every tank. You never know what’s in those fuel stations. Some say it’s snake oil, but I’d rather be safe than sorry with these engines
Can you say Failed government emission control science project forced on the auto manufacturers. Remidy. Delete delete, delete. And add a large well baffled and with an SS wool filter that does restrict blow-by-movement. Connected by 1" ID tubing that is not kinked in any way that would restrict blow by exciting the crankcase.
In negotiations with a seller in Texas, 2008 F450 4x4 Lariat, original owner, 19,800 miles, absolutely beautiful truck, fully deleted @ I'm told around 2,500 miles. ASKING $40,000 yes or no?
@FlatBedLife717 I know a guy who spent almost $30k on a Choate 6.4, got 12,000 miles out of it ( blew up ), they wouldn't hold up to warranty coverage, guy had to get a lawyer, was a total loss all said and done.
How can you comment on the pump adding fuel to the crank ( the big no-no)? When the regen of the DPF in the period of servicing time that fuel bypassing the piston rings in bombers 7 and 8 is so great maybe because of excessive ring gap because of the extreme temperatures of over 1000%F I have heard 1400%F the ring gap has to be so great so as it doesn't close up due to expansion that even when not in regen the gap is so wide that fuel is just bypassing the piston rings to the point I have heard an extra three pints of liquid in the crank at service time. Now call me wrong. However, I have seen this in my own 08 6.4 F350 Super Duty not ever raced with less than 100k on the odometer and the dealer said that's OK. OK. WTF OK.?
The more he talks, the worse my stomach feels. I'm fortunate to have inherited my truck from my father in law when he passed, so I didn't pay a butt load of money for the truck. But if/when this thing has issues I'm not sure it will be worth fixing.
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“The 6.4 could be a fantastic engine. It just needs to owned by only two kinds of people. One’s an old man and the other is a mechanic.” I knew it was comin. My 6.4 got 196,000 miles and counting. But I drive like an old man and I’m a half way mechanic
Have you ever ran into issue where it leaks engine oil from above the balancer? And it makes weird noises under load only?
@@itsdanimusic8395 I haven’t seen ran into that yet but my uncle’s 6.4 had oil leaking from the rear main seal which he had to replace. Mine also has a leak from the rear main but that’s the only leaking I’ve noticed so far
Mines got 230 on it and I drive the fuck outta it , not even gonna lie I work o. The road and I’ve had it for 2 years and it had 174k when I got it and them 60k I’ve put on it have been some hard miles lol and I’ve only replaced my water pump once my driver up pipe Once and my map sensors she runs like a champ and it’s my daily 🤷♂️
The 6.4l is my absolute favorite❤
Thanks for your content. I bought one in a 2010 by mistake at an auction not knowing which gen was what. Now I have to learn. Hard to follow a guy with jumping around issues or back and forth. Maybe follow an outline and not memory. My 2 cents.
I’ve been waiting on this one. 6.4 has a horrendous reputation. Thanks for the vid!
I really appreciate you fellas posting this or simply taking the time to make this episode. I daily drive my own 08 6.4 King Ranch crew bad with 8’ bed. Currently has 265,000 miles but the last 100,000 have been with issues. Burping coolant overflow. Here’s what is weird, I’ve done 2 separate leak down test that resulted in no blown head gaskets, my oil temp and coolant stay with 5 degrees of each other under load with a loaded dump trailer hauling tear off from roofing. NOT LEGAL AND I DONT DO THIS KNOWINGLY, OFTEN, but last time the axles and tires on my 7x14 dump trailer with raised side walls, the f’er was squatted!! Truck pulled it through town, speeds never got above 10-15mph but it did it no problem. Heater blows cold and coolant spews from overflow if topped off and under heavy load or driven hard and fast with no trailer. I’ve had local shops try and diagnose and all say the same, even tho leak down test and oil and coolant temps are within 5 degrees at all times you have a blown head gasket. I’m getting ready to remove the cab and rebuild as I love this truck. Interior is mint and it’s the normal 08 king ranch saddle leather with buckets up front and 2 buckets in rear with center consoles in both. I love the truck and will never get rid of her. My intentions are to remove cab and bed and do frame up resto, get her back to when I bought her and looking gorgeous! Not blowing smoke but my King Ranch is the best looking one I’ve ever seen with the chrome and just the right factory lift that I can run Toyos AT’s and my god I get compliments still today 15 years later. I will own this truck till I die and your info here is excellent. So, thank you guys!!! There are many of us 6.4 diehards out there.
Ps……mine has EGR delete and programmed and there is even today NO TRUCK IN GRESHAM THAT CAN TOUCH OR EVEN COMPETE WITH MY 2008 6.4, even smokes new sports cars, she’s FAST and untouchable. 🤩🙌😎😁👍
Feel the same way. I dont know why but 08-10 are literally the best looking models ever designed.
Brilliant. I’ve owned a 7.3
J have a first Gen 6.0 built 12/02 original owner 545 thousand miles NEVER touched it. No studs no bullet proof towed up to 40 thousand lbs weekly. 3 previous 6.7. Current one with one of your motors and picking up my new to me twin to the truck I have today. Never owned a 6.4 but can totally appreciate and understand your tutorial on the engine best used as a boat anchor you must really love your work to go so far in depth !
Love mine, ordered it new to get a six speed, and I'll keep it forever because I can't get a stick anymore.
So I put 197,000 on mine. Stock form dpf and egr's. No coolant leaks original radiator and all. Only issue was the ebp sensor in all that time. In 2016 the hpfp went out. Bought a new fuel system, new heads from UCF, Valve train components, bpd water pump, oil cooler, BD mans and up pipes. Now I have another 70,000 on it and it still runs good. Original turbos also.
I would love to have a 6.4. But they do scare me. It’s amazing when I see one with 250,000 + miles
Great information, thank you!
This is by far one of the best explanatory vidios on the problems out there. Keep them comming
The 6.4 is a great engine but not in the stock configuration. A tune focused on efficiency and deleting the emissions programming and not on putting in a ton of timing and removing the DPF and EGR and it'll likely run for a long time.
Even if you delete the emissions they're still ass. Parts are expensive, the water pump eats through the cover, the heads crack and warp, the rods aren't bushed, the radiators leak constantly, and they get horrible economy even deleted. I had one. It got 13 mpg deleted with street tires.
Mine is done as such . Runs great. 175k .
This is comming to you now Dec 10 2023 my 08 6.4 was stamped Jan 08. I deleted all that failed Goverment science prodject on emission control as soon as the wornty was up. At abought 90K the front cover went as well as the rear seal then that was covered by wornty. Then after that I did the deletes. I was told to get rid of it. But I'm still driving it. With 140K miles now on it. Hell its an 08 its the end of 2023 she feel great, looks great. But I'm looking for a set of the Bulletproof valve covers with the extra oil injectors built in with all the nessary hardware and hook up instructions. Befor I have lifter isues. Or when I tackle all the re and re under the valve covers I would love to get a set of those modified valve covers Bill at Bulletproof was talking adout a while back.I love this truck❤. I have heard all the isues. As well I heard reducing service to 5K intervals is a good idea and I have always done that. But living in western Canada its hard to find these cool after market products. Or to just get them across the border$$$. Any way I'm looking to keep this truck or go broke doing it😂😂😂👍
Getting rid of my 2009 6.4 was the best decision I’ve ever made, nothing but heartache and wallet break on that truck. Bought it new treated it like gold when it comes to maintenance and it failed several times even at low miles.
Same experience I had with mine. It was like if BMW made a pickup truck.
Thanks. Love this
I absolutely love my 6.4 stock motor and trans and at 400k problems free I do drive slow no faster then 65mph
6.4 is a power house with the fuel
System and turbo capability. Lots of potential but longevity was short. They were known to make oil lol aka fuel dilution. I do like a well sorted 6.0 liter with O ring heads and studs. The bottom ends of the 6.0/6.4 are pretty stout with strong crank and rods. 6.0 pistons seemed to fair pretty well. The cylinder head on 6.4 used a 16mm vs 14mm on a 6.0 but the real improvement was the cylinder head castings. You didn’t get good clamping as you got away from the fastener where you needed it most on the 18mm 6.0 heads. The later 6.4 heads had beefier gussets which helped transmit the clamping force around the cylinder for more even distribution. Lifter failure in my own opinion was the fact that each lifter operated a bridge and two valves it was under a lot of load. I think if you did 5000 mile oil changes your chances were better. My camshaft at 250k was wearing hard on the lobes through the surface hardening. That Siemens K16 pump seemed to have a decent amount of headway. It wasn’t very robust but it could move a good amount more fuel than the 350hp rating of the motors
I just got me one and it has the egr shit under the hood but when I look up under it ...gone. Strait pipe and mufflar. Runs awesome so far
That's the way to do it. I took off both egrs and the Y up pipe cracked. So my engine and his are just black now until I get it fixed
Best fix is to remove it and put in a Cummins. I think Bill at Powerstroke help said 8 out of 10 he bought for cores had bent cranks. We saw two with bent cranks at my shop.
No way u dont know what ur even talking about, what woukd possibly bend the crank they hold 1200+ hp
Why do some 08 6.4 F350's have a external oil filter on the transmission and others don't. I have seen videos on changing the trans oil filter but nothing on the external toilet paper tupe filter whats up with that?
Are you saying everyone that bought one of these new or used should be involved in a class action lawsuit especially those that are in areas that are forced to keep the failed missions control systems. Then bypassing this with aftermarket systems in an attempt to help get some longevity out of these vehicles that are now being fined through the EPA for trying to correct these issues that Ford should have admitted fault to.
The 6.4 Power Stroke: A predictable outcome from the confluence of breaking your effort's own legs with limited budget, asking your roommate to take notes for you, cramming for the final test, and ending up having to redo the last year while your roommate moves on.
You forgot to add the correlation between the high timing in these tunes and cylinder pressure. I’ve built many 14 liter Cummins engines and cat engines. Both engines will crack pistons when adding fuel and faster timing. Yes it makes power but sadly cracking is the side effect. That’s why I Retard the injection timing to lower overall cylinder pressure. Great vid btw
Good point but tons of stock tune 6.4s have failed. A hot tune on a 6.4 seems to be a death sentence (eventually)
@@Bacongrease00 anything will fail. Key is making it last as long as possible. I’ve seen tons of 6.7’s have main and rod bearing issues along with L5P duramax’s window the blocks before their second oil change. You get good and bad engines in every bunch. Like rolling the dice honestly.
@@6.4DieselDoctor I thought your comment was insinuating that these cracked pistons were because of high timing in tunes. Which is true but I was just stating many 6.4 have cracked pistons on stock tunes. The 6.0 really didn’t have that issue with pistons intetesting enough
My 6.4 has 260k. I use it I tow with it. All I did was delete it.and how long are you backlogged ?
Love your vids. But, please invest in a proper microphone.
Keep 'em coming.
6.0/6.4 bottom ends are robust. The crank and rods are beefy. The 6.4 rod can take a lot of power it’s usually the low end torque that hurts them if your running compounds and big fuel.
My 09 6.4l has given me NO problems since purchasing brand new. Delete at 120K, and I use all the Archoil oil and fuel additives religiously! Absolutely change fluids correctly, use only Motorcraft parts!!!!!
Now: I am chasing my first issue ever, I’m my own mechanic and I know this truck inside and out. This issue has me lost, but I know I’ll fix it hopefully before anything worse.
16mpg hwy/ in town😡
Okay so to summarize, dont tune it to something stupid, install a coolant filter to keep sand out of the system, remove DPF and EGR components. Regular fuel filter and maintenance and she should be good to go? Mines got 400k km on it, Ive done a lot of work to it including the things i just listed. Any other preventative work you might recommend?
Just my opinion, fuel additive to lubricate the pump in every tank can’t hurt. Good oil and an oil additive every time can’t hurt either. It’s what I do. 196,000 miles so far
@@outcastfisherman6991 What sort of fuel/oil additives do you recommend? Theres so many that offer a variety of benefits, is there any grouping that you've stuck with?
@@garrylarose1506 I have been using Hotshots brand Everyday Diesel Treatment for fuel (one ounce per tank). I have used one bottle of Diesel Extreme Fuel system cleaner, but I don’t use it anymore. I had no issues with it, but I have heard a couple of stories about it causing injector issues. So I stopped using it just in case. As for oil I have used Hotshots Stiction Eliminator. Engine sounds a little better than before, I get less smoke from the tailpipe. So Hotshots has been good to me, but I will be switching to Archoil as an experiment. I’ve heard a lot of good about their products. So I will soon be purchasing Archoil Friction Modifier and Diesel Treatment. I’ve heard that oil additive isn’t necessary as long as you use a good synthetic/blend or full synthetic oil ( I use motorcraft or shell rotella t5) and change oil religiously. But I like the idea of extra lubricity in the entire system. At the very least use a diesel fuel additive in every tank. You never know what’s in those fuel stations. Some say it’s snake oil, but I’d rather be safe than sorry with these engines
Good info just work on the ums and ahs in your talking.
It was really bad at @2:00
Can you say
Failed government emission control science project forced on the auto manufacturers. Remidy. Delete delete, delete. And add a large well baffled and with an SS wool filter that does restrict blow-by-movement. Connected by 1" ID tubing that is not kinked in any way that would restrict blow by exciting the crankcase.
08 f250 6.4 with 251k miles, all original, no issue, I will not do any mods to it !!!!
The guy below says they are fantastic. So fantastic Ford used it for three whole years. 3.
In negotiations with a seller in Texas, 2008 F450 4x4 Lariat, original owner, 19,800 miles, absolutely beautiful truck, fully deleted @ I'm told around 2,500 miles. ASKING $40,000 yes or no?
No way man 40K step into a later model 6.7
No more then 30k, if it had a Choat or kill diesel crate engine then 40k might be justified
@FlatBedLife717 I know a guy who spent almost $30k on a Choate 6.4, got 12,000 miles out of it ( blew up ), they wouldn't hold up to warranty coverage, guy had to get a lawyer, was a total loss all said and done.
Talk!
You should work with ford and help them to build something good.
How can you comment on the pump adding fuel to the crank ( the big no-no)? When the regen of the DPF in the period of servicing time that fuel bypassing the piston rings in bombers 7 and 8 is so great maybe because of excessive ring gap because of the extreme temperatures of over 1000%F I have heard 1400%F the ring gap has to be so great so as it doesn't close up due to expansion that even when not in regen the gap is so wide that fuel is just bypassing the piston rings to the point I have heard an extra three pints of liquid in the crank at service time. Now call me wrong. However, I have seen this in my own 08 6.4 F350 Super Duty not ever raced with less than 100k on the odometer and the dealer said that's OK. OK. WTF OK.?
My biggest question is why is the 6.4 so horrible on fuel mileage ? My built 6,0 gets almost triple the mileage.
You probably not deleted , my tuned and deleted 6.4 gets 19 empty on the highway .
@@11bravoak mine is , I average between 11 & 14 in the 6.4, the 6.0 is far better
The more he talks, the worse my stomach feels. I'm fortunate to have inherited my truck from my father in law when he passed, so I didn't pay a butt load of money for the truck. But if/when this thing has issues I'm not sure it will be worth fixing.
If you follow rule #1, you won't even need to watch this video.
Rule #1: never buy or mess with or even go near a 6.4L PS
100%
Or buy a Dodge or GM diesel. Same year Duramax Engines are fine.
Who is paying 24 grand for these guys motors with out insulation?!??????????????
People who love and won't ever get rid of there 6.4. Which is plenty since they are still in business!