Why Primaris Keep Dying | Warhammer 40K Lore
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Other Marine Chapters: “they are too machine like”
Iron Hands and their successors: “I fail to see a problem with this”
Hahahha true
Iron hands be like: this bad boy can fit soooo many cybernetics in him
Other marine chapters: “metaphorically”
iron Hands: “Oh”
1st legions: "I played this game since it came out. I have a lvl 99 Captain!"
Primaris: "I bought the level skip."
Basically 🤣
First Born: Dark Souls vet whose played all the games and knows each boss's moveset by heart.
Chaos Space Marine Long War Vet: has been an invader in all those games, and knows the PvP nuances of all weapons, and can disembowel you with a broken sword hilt if he wanted
CSM thin blood: has just started invading, but is always eager for blood. Knows instinctively when a veteran is invading the same world, and will follow their lead.
Primaris: password summoned Cawl to drop him 99 stacks of all consumables and weapon upgrades in the first area, and thinks he's able to stand up to 5 invaders at once, gets trolled off a ledge or baited into attacking the obligatory early game miniboss and dies like an idiot
Reminds me when you need a healer to pvp or raid and the only option is the one rogue/assassin guild mate that has a buffbot he got off eBay that has max gear and pvp rank.
Its funny how every chapter master is doing the same thing (except Daunte) and most of the heroes
But the thing GW did was underestimate the attachment by fans to the firstborn. Especially since they made them incompatible, next to zero customization and no thought how to integrate them into the codex divergent chapters both in lore and in game...they could have just said new armor and now black carapace .....new enough for marines. Or just ripped the bandaid off from the jump but they folded and it's wierd for marines right now
I feel like Dante had the most logical mindset about the new Primaris. They’re pretty untested, however with time they could blend well better with their original chapters and become an asset.
Apparently some Primaris started believing themselves to be Sanguinus fighting Horus.
Yeah, I would not want to be in the same planet or ship with them.
@@shan9usfc Isn't that the case for all blood angels with the curse?
I actually hope that whilst Dante gets a new model, it isn’t a Primaris.
I thought his big problem with primaris was that he considered primaris blood angels to just be red ultramarines.
@@falsehero2001 that was Gabriel seth
I imagine many primed marines were sent back to the scout company for a coat of paint after command found out they were 5k years old but had 5 years of combat experience.
lol
We do have the primaris scouts now so I wonder how many marines for pressed into the tenth
I like to imagine a Veteran venting about Primaris to random xenos.
Tau: Why exactly do you hate these guys? They helped you!
Veteran: It’s… it’s like being replaced in a way. Look imagine your current battle suit is replaced by a new improved one outta nowhere!
Tau: Uhhh that sounds great…
Veteran: Ok bad example…
“I’m sure it would be great to have a new one, I’ve ripped all the limbs off this one, now shut up and let me use you as a temporary therapist while I’ve got you here’
"imagine you randomly got a company of children with better battle suits"
@@NUTDOM Especially when those children are better than you at everything lmao. Primaris glory boys making the firstborn cucks seethe as usual
cringe
Imagine every one of your battle suits was red and you were forced into glorious melee combat.
Tau: *H E R E S Y !*
Primaris were supposedly being deployed in and out of battle zones by Belisarious over the 10k years of their creation; but even the indomitus veterans deployed as reinforcements also seem to be too much machine like, and its this inhuman aspect that makes them weak besides non primaris, they were more programmed than trained in my opinion, rushing to combat and death to achieve tactical objectives without any kind of insight besides pre battle calculations
As new primaris are created and raised in their respective chapters the problems we see with the generation created by crawl should start to go away, at least theoretically.
They aren't weak, though. Dude literally only states two examples of them dying, and one is to a Custodes lmao. On the other hand, there's just as many if not more examples of them outperforming Firstborns. In "Shroud of Night", The Alpha Legion are halted in their tracks when confronted with Primaris marines and are startled by their fighting capabilities & durability. In "ShadowBreaker" an *augmented Iron Hands marine in full-plate armor* fights some average joe Primaris in mere scout armor, and he gets folded like a suitcase.
Custodes Valerian himself even goes toe-to-toe with a random Primaris in "The Regent's Shadow" and the Primaris is able to hold his own for a while, with Valerian even saying something akin to "this new breed of warrior is powerful." and wishing he could have savored the battle longer. Nothing about the Primaris is "weak".
@@KevinJohnson-cv2no not talking about physical or skill weakness obviously, they are giants and hold more raw power than a regular astartes, but they hold a weakness derived from their origin programming, where it seems the experience of in field combat training was somewhat overlooked and replaced with simulation, as the simulations will never give experience of a real ever changing battlefield, having a rigid mental structure in a hostile dynamic enviroment is a weakness
Which ironically enough should make them superior to every other faction in 40k except maybe the Tau but because of 40k logic they are not.
Very similar situation to storm troopers and clone troopers from starwars. Clones are trained their entire brief life while storm troopers are rushed out of training after a few months in armour that barely fits them.
Primaris remind me a lot of the new privates we got while I was in the Army. The "Call of Duty" era of recruits. All of them believing they were gods own gift to the military, none of them had a clue.
Harsh but accurate XD
I agree. I was in from 2004-2019 and the changes I saw were drastic. We had guys, myself included, who went to Iraq when there were still large scale engagements going on. We learned to fight or we didn't make it back. By my later years, we had kids joining who were airsoft players and call of duty fans they literally thought it was possible to reload while sliding through doors. Like ok that might work in video games but reality is so different, there is no respawn, stamina isn't endless, combat isn't as fluid as video games make it out to be. Being infantry, there is a natural arrogance that comes with it because it's beat into our skulls that we will be the ones doing the fighting blah blah blah but add in these kids being raised in the participation award era it was chaotic to say the least. These kids did learn why the old vets were not to be trifled with though. Eventually 😂
Sliding while reloading hahaha. Did anyone try bunny hopping diagonally in an attempt to cover more ground?
@@trevtall1094 Tbf to those airsoft babies, some of them can do irl slide cancel
Shoutout to my Black Templars for apparently being the only chapter that found out how to make primaris neophytes.
They have Plak Armor rather than Plot Armor. It is a +5 save rather than +3
The struggle of being mass produced
@@livefromtheblacklibrary are you saying Primaris are made in China? ;)
Buy cheap, buy twice...
@@catiasantos9470 Wait, guardsmen have a 5+ save. OH GOD THEY'RE ALL CHINESE
@@qdshuck nah Guardsmen are smart enough to actually fight as unit when ever on screen since you know they aren’t the new shiny toy like the primaris are and brave enough do it with the simple Las gun a occasional tank or piece of artillery XD
To think the sons of the Emperor are so weak... To lose to a word bearer. The embarrassment.
I am a bearer of the word, and the word is L
"LOL."
said the Word bearer, looking at Primaris marines,
"LMAO."
"You lost to a Word Bearer? Off boy, you sure your not some PDF?" - some Astra Militarum
We orchestrated the heresy and are one of two legions to remain united. Why is everyone always shitting on me!?
@@Lorgar64 Wait which legion is the other one? Death Guard or Iron Warriors?
The Primaris remind me a lot of the early legions and early missions conducted by the Legions. They had monstrous casualties back then too, and huge inductions (even before the Heresy). As more firstborn Astartes convert to Rubicon Primaris, things will stabilize. But for now, yeah, they're dying a lot the same way the Astartes who reconquered the solar system did.
Exactly what I was thinking. If this was real, I’d bet the learning curve of the founding chapter would be quite similar to the primaris although I wouldn’t even be surprised if the primaris has a faster grasp on things
The early legions also had the emporer fighting next to them
The early legions also had the emporer fighting next to them
@@MyXyle666Dark Angels had him the most in the early days ….. I hope we get/got uncrowned Princes in the codex.
I think my take on this, kinda runs along with what happened with Pedro Kantor when he questioned Guilliman if these were replacements for Firstborn. Essentially Guilliman told him that the Firstborn like Pedro should be guides and mentors, to teach the Primaris what it means to be a Space Marine, and how to weather this harsh galaxy. To be the Veterans that the Primaris are to learn from.
Another interesting example of Word Bearers stunting on Primaris can be found in Josh Reynolds book; Apocalypse.
The Imperial Fist character is dualing the Word Bearer, all the while thinking he will win due to studying Sigismund fighting style.
The Word Bearer however, has been around long enough to have seen that style first hand and knows its flaws. He proceeds to educate the Primaris (fucks him up).
"Do not cite the deep magic to me, Witch. I was there when it was written"
There hypno training and primaris conversion has left them in a sort of robotic trance. There are actually a few instances that show them "waking up" in the middle of combat as well a few places where it shows that from their perspective they were just children literally days ago. There was one who's last non-hypno induced memory was being led away from class after getting into a fight with a friend in school, and they ponder what might have happened to that friend. And there was another who's last memory was fleeing from the emperor's children during the siege of terra.
Many of them seem to literally actually *be* children. not trained from childhood, but actual children who have been programmed for combat via hypno-training and kept in stasis after being converted into a primaris marine.
Gman has a primaris that remembers him being taken from the recruiting center.
I think this tension between the Modernizing-yet-Naiive new guard and the Experienced-yet-Sclerotic older faction of the Imperium is interesting in its own right. Guilliman contesting the norms of the Imperium is a welcome breath of fresh air, but reform elements like the Primaris having growing pains keeps the New Imperial Stuff from just being this "Mary Sue"-ish pure improvement.
It just keeps things interesting, I think.
funny thing when Dark Angels got some new Primaris and Lion wake up Lion made sure they were PROPERLY tarined to his exat likeness that meant every new primaris marine had to go back even more creuling training under Asmodai and Lazarus
@@no-nonseplayer6612yeah I think that's what is needed. The primaris need to be treated like any other aspirants regardless of the fact that they are stronger on paper than old Marines
@@nathans45 well of course they need proper training If i was given wef chapters primris marines o would Make sure their properly trained and have proper gear
I love the Dark Apostle literally made the "soul vs soulless" argument which fits so ironically well even on a meta level
Unpopular Opinion: Primaris are biologically engineered to have "diminished" souls, so that they can withstand warp powers and don't get corrupted as easily. They are like the Clone Troopers in Star Wars, who also had part of their free will suppressed. The goal is the same in both cases: make them more efficient soldiers.
@@chrisw7047 The difference is, the Clones earned their rep. The Primaris had a lot of claims made, but they're yet to back them up.
@@chrisw7047is that so? That’s some next level Engineering because the only other person to engineer or modify souls was the emperor and maybe some high level scientists during his primarch project
I think the biggest difference between the Primaris and Firstborn is something you pointed out already. The battlefield roles ascribed in the Codex are Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tactical. While the Primaris have a psuedo version of this where they’re all trained in Phobos Armor first then Tacticus Armor then Gravis Armor it works fundamentally different from firstborn because they’re not meant to be tactically flexible. They’re meant to be a part of a squad with a prescribed role. Entire squad of hellblasters rather than a tac squad or devastator squad with various weapon types. Guilliman remade the codex because training one squad to do one thing makes them better at that one thing though makes them less flexible. It makes training far less complex for initiates to allow faster recruitment and after a while of doing that one thing they will learn and become veterans and that’s how you weed out the standouts
The real reason is mixed-purpose units were losing favour in the game meta; squads would either be min-maxed for a role, or left bare bones for objective grabbing. The rules from 3rd to 7th Editions only allowing units to target one other unit fed into this.
The Heresy range introduced single-loadout units, which proved popular due to their 'efficiency.' As such, the new Primaris units followed this same philosophy.
The irony is that 8th Edition did away with the restriction of only targeting one unit, so mixed-purpose loadouts became more useful than they had been since 2nd Edition.
Let’s not forget, it’s cheaper for GW to sell the single loadouts and bloat the codex with lots of similar units that fans wi buy
@@darko-man8549 How is that cheaper for them, as opposed to having multiple options for the same unit?
@@nicholassmith7984 basically, by giving us more units that fill almost the same niche we HAVE to buy all those units: the incursors, inflitrators, reivers, eliminators.
Whereas, if there is a single box with a few different loadouts, whilst yes we have to buy a few boxes, with some clever hobby, you don't need as many boxes.
Plus the more monopose structure of the primaris is easier to make and harder to kitbash - the recent rocket launcher models were, according to one employee, made to actually be hard to kitbash.
Look at all the single pose lieutentatns they've pushed out rather than multi-loadout leieutenants.
@@darko-man8549 You don't have to buy all of them. You still only need to buy as much of each as you want, which could be none if another unit does a similar job.
I love the fact that the sub faction of the Black Templars decided to kill them and the Marshall and custodian as well.
How they managed that is fucking beyond me
@@livefromtheblacklibrary weaponized autism.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary I suppose you can’t react to a melta bomb going off on your back, no matter how badass the custodians are, if they had no warning to the betrayal I can see them rather dishonourably being backstabbed.
Still… bloody hell, why did they even try, if you shoot for the custodian you had *better not miss*
Yes and then that whole sub-faction was itself killed off so it worked out well for them???
If Grimaldus or Helbrecht were there, I have no doubt the dude in charge wouldve gotten his ass kicked or die of a heart attack seeing Helbrecht and Grimaldus having crossed the Rubicon.
The Dawn of Fire series is literally with the first batch of Primaris who had no combat experience at all. By the time you get to the Dark Imperium trilogy they do have that combat experience.
Your example is hardly fair a Dark Apostle is literally the top 1% of the Word Bearers legion. He is armored in Terminator armor and is a sorcerer with thousands of years of experience against a character that was essentially bumped up from Sergeant to Captain simply because there were no captains with experience around.
I thought the point of Primaris was as initial reinforcements, until the chapters replenish their own units with Primaris Marines that do go through the same process as veterans.
It is, however if stay your chapter is down to your last 200 and you get 800 reinforcements you can't exactly stop to train all 800 on the basics of fighting in 42k. They were trained in a lab and you notice in a lot of books they don't know the basics on Chaos and most of the species as they are "men of science" were the firstborn are "men of faith and superstition". If you you want a comparison the Primaris are closers to Tau thinking then the Imperium, as they are trying to think logically in an era that most of the time has now rhyme or reason, most 40k born characters are like oh shit it's this and that. The Primaris are more now hang on what's going on here, lets investigate this.
The primaris were deployed early to fight off and basicaly counter blitz the great rift and everything else alfter
Now that chapters are making their own and training them by themselves they will probably become better and we'll see more veterans
maybe some chapters develop a sistem simmilar to the old recruitment/training (eg. phobos, hellblaster then intercesors)
the primaris have potential, they were just added to quickly without setup and thats the main reasons fans dont like them
I prefer the chapters that treat is as promotion of sorts. Like start as a normal marine prove yourself worthy. Then cross the Rubicon
Yeah, hopefully that will be outgrown
@@valdr2286 That's what the stormcast did, the giving of Thunderstrike armor was considered a promotion
@@RyanCunningham don't know much about them. But good on them. The blood angels re train there primaris and stick a first born to lead a squad or platoon of primaris. The primaris are never solo with other primaris they need a babysitter lol
@@valdr2286 they don't really retrain them, they get trained in their culture so to speak
This is exactly why I like Primaris marines. They are overall slightly stronger and tougher with slightly better gear, but their lack of experience gets them wrecked by stuff a Firstborn wouldn't, ....like back-talking a Custodes.
I think the Custodes could use some back talk. They're too used to being worshipped.
@@Luciusthestormsagreed
Custodes are pathetic. Sitting on their asses and playing games for 10 thousand years. Primaris get wrecked...primarily because they're actually fighting the enemies of mankind.
@@Luciusthestorms Gulliman's reprimands got through their skulls, especially since the Daemonic invasion of Terra during the 13th Black Crusade.
Much more than "slightly" my friend
surprised you didn't use the epitome of anti-primaris characters in Gabriel Seth (Flesh Tearers). There is a nice little fist fight between an unhelmeted Seth and a fully armoured Primaris Captain (the leader of the new reinforcements) who decided that being so cock sure and superior to your new Chapter Master was a brilliant idea. Lets just say he was carried out of the room by his primaris brethren.
Many have tried debating Seth using their fists. Many have been soundly rebutted.
Oof. Reminds me of the boogaloo that went down over Astorath the Grim mercy-killing some of Seth’s Death Company brothers. They both had to be dragged away from that one, iirc.
@@samaritan_sys I also recall something to this effect.
Ah yes, Gabriel "Literal plot armour" Seth the colossal retard who will happily team kill anyone yet when he actually goes up against another named character they never seem to put the mad dog down despite how worthless he is.
@@samaritan_sys
Anything with Seth is always so damn entertaining
I like to imagine The Emperor COULD of made Primarus. But chose not to. My evidence is how Big E gave knowledge psychically to Corax who made the Raptor Project (something i consider Primarus before Primarus). Why did Big E not initially make Primarus? Because in the long run, he wanted Humanity to be self reliant. He did not want them always relying on Astartes to always save them and worst case scenario, rule them. They were intended as a short term tool to conquer the Galaxy after all. Cawl had the intelligence to create Primarus but he lacked the Wisdom and the Humility to see why he shouldn't
See thats a good point instead of reinventing the Space Marine legions. Cawl could have done something more strategically impactful. Like improving the imperial guard's weapons like better laser weapons, better vehicles and improved warships.
The Emperor (Beloved by all in his glorious Majesty) could not forsee the betrayal of his best creation, A Primarch, so, its safe to say he couldnt prepare for every potential deviation of the timeline, this after The Imperium conquered the galaxy and erased thousands of Xenos races from history, The Emperor wanted the Astarted to be more that the guardian protectors of his realm, never saw the need for stronger warriors because he already had them, for the time obviously, when he rises again i bet he is the one who takes the Primaris and primes them to the absolutme maximum potential.
Dunno how it is nowadays but old lore hinted that Space Marines never was meant to be a long term solution.
Just like Thunder warriors before them the legions were meant to be dismantled when the conquering was over.
I fail to understand why the emperor desire for humanity to be self-sufficient would stop him from creating primaris no offence but that just seems silly.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 no offense at all! I would think it's silly if I got offended if my head cannon got questioned about a fictional universe lol. It's my head cannon, i don't expect others to believe it but I'll share it for a friendly discussion
First I should mention I have a couple theories on why the Emperor did not create Primaris but the one mentioned is just my favorite. The way I see it, Astartes were a tool given to humanity by GEoM to conquer the Galaxy and protect them within a specific time until Humanity was ready to do it themselves. The long Goal being having all of humanity evolving naturally to a powerful psychic species and not through transhumanism. Had the firstborn been stronger, there would be a risk humanity would rely on Astartes to always save the day instead of figuring it out themselves. Much like a doctor prescribing pain killers, the goal is to give enough to get through the pain untill the patient is healed and they can wean off of it not give so much they can't function without it even after healed. I'm not in a point where I can get deep into it but I hope this helps and any thoughts are welcomed
I think it'll naturally resolve itself over time as the original batch of Primaris either die off or wise up, Firstborn veterans cross the Rubicon, and new recruits are turned into them. But I think this dynamic is pretty interesting right now, and Chaos deserve to look cool, it would suck if the new genetics and tech just steamrolled over the enemies of the Imperium.
It kinda evens it out really, the chaos marines (in the lore) had a pretty big advantage of being able to call upon the warp to enhance their bodies, reflexes, strength, psychic power, anything could be enhanced with a little help from a demon or two, and so the Primaris are (in the lore) just making things a little more fair for the loyalists, especially since chaos has had a big win with the fall of Cadia
I bet we'll We have primaris veterans of the HH by the time the DA codex drops. There's no way at least some of the risen don't jump at the chance for some power ups.
nah idc about the grimdark i want the humans to kill everything else.
@@3adgamd3rIn the lore chaos marine’s have generally worst equipments and armour because their supply chains are terrible or non-existent. They were already on equal footing
This is a really interesting and well made point and not something that I'd noticed previously, but now that you mention it I see it everywhere. I think we've got to give some respect to GW here, no doubt making the Primaris was a business decision, but at the end of the day it gave us much nicer true scale marine models. It would have been easy for them to write stories where the Primaris shit on everyone, especially the first born to encourage people to buy more, but this shows a bit more nuance, respect for the lore and makes for a more interesting story.
Yeah absolutely, I should have mentioned in the video how it’s kind of a good thing like you said
I disagree as it makes perfect sense within the setting that after 10,000 years the Imperium would need to innovate in order to recover or thrive, its obvious within the setting with the Custodes being head and shoulders above the marines there would be room to improve upon them while still making mistakes in the form of arrogance or expediency. We see that within the 40k setting that nothing can substitute for real experience and tradition/structures are there for a reason. I think its a very good lesson. As for selling models, I dont think theres anything wrong with making money as long as it makes sense within the setting.
Imagine defending G-Dubs
Well we do have the firstborn who have crossed the Rubicon Primaris that would be something worth exploring if the writers at BL would give it some thought.
I do like this trade off. Yes they are bigger, faster, smarter(book), and more genetically pure but they not only lack… Discipline? Tack? SM Social cues? Cultural Understanding? (Idk how to describe it but it’s a mix of the above) they also lack practical experience. There are stories of Primaris officers freezing up in combat against nids and chaos while even the youngest of first born astartes soldier on and fight like it is Tuesday
From what I have understood, only Greyshield (Primaris awoken from under the Forges of Mars and used as the main battleforce during the Indomitus Crusade) went straight from newbies to fully armoured Marines, notably because of psycho-indoctrination (like the Minotaurs chapter by the way). But those raised and born from the homeworld of already or new chapter had to go through the stages like Firstborn Marines
Some very solid points.
I’d add to this that the Primaris have some disconcerting echos of the Thunder Warriors going on. They’re mass produced - even more than Astartes during the Great Crusade - and thrown at problems en masse. I seem to recall that there have been mentions in the lore that they may not have the longevity of first-born marines.
Would actually be kinda funny if the Imperium stabilizes again and Guilliman repeats his father's actions and orders the Primaris to be exterminated like the Emperor ordered the Thunder Warriors to be exterminated after the Unification Wars.
@@Commodore22345 the thunder warriors one had a reason they served their purpose and were going to die slow agonizing deaths so the emperor just cut out the middle man
basically spamming troops early in hoi4 without waiting for training to complete
It’ll work for a bit buuuuuut
My biggest issue as a dark angel's enthusiast, they really REALLY don't make sense given the dark angel's natural distrust of anyone at all even within the chapter there are significant trust issues and I can't see them just letting them into the inner circle. I could go on about this for hours, I like the models cosmetically but I hate them in the lore. I wouldn't even have cared if they just released a range refresh and called it true scale or something it would still be a cash grab but whatever they are a company so gotta make money I get it, but this just shits on the lore.
Fair, why the Primaris DA in Kill Team I run are hundreds of years down the line as veterans, so it doesn’t fly in the face of the lore quite so much.
@@tomgeytenbeek2207 Basically, they all crossed the Rubicon. And the new Primaris are the ones the Dark Angels personally recruit.
@@AAhmou ya you can kind of ignore the books and play it this way but in the books Rowboat showed up and gave them a massive supplemental force of primarius complete with captains and everything, I still use them in my army (kind hard to play anything but the most causal of games and not at this point) but GW just basically said fuck it with the dark angel's lore and just yeeted them in there where they should have just had the dark angel's between a rock and a hard place and had a large chunk of the force cross the rubicon all at once or like I said not done primarius at all and just marketed it as a true scale range refresh plus new models
Give em a new circle, a better circle with blackjack and hookers! Wait, that's how ya fall ain't it?
@@keldon_champion Retard alert! The Inner Circle are chosen because they can be trusted, and are tested and judged literally every chance they can be, Firstborn or Primaris does not matter.
There's another moment to highlight in Wolftime, which in and of itself spends most of it's pages addressing how the space wolves incorporated the primaris marines. This should have arguably been a smother transition as Space wolves flip the standard process so a marine goes from blood claw: front line shock troops to grey hunter: rank and file marine, to long fang: devastator equivalent. (obviously cutting out those skilled enough to become wolf guard or thurderwolf cavalry or unlucky enough to become wulfen.)
Initially this does play out to a degree with the intercessors that are the focal point of the story first being recognized as bloodclaws, for the most part it's the cultural differences more than the doctrinal/capability differences that chafe. But mid way through the story there's a weapons emplacement that gets taken over by some chaos cultists and begins targeting a ship in orbit carrying primaris reinforcements. The sergeant of the intercessor squad wants to destroy the emplacement but the grey hunter with him says no as they are inside with their squads.
The primaris marine was thinking one soldier was as good as another and that they couldn't risk everyone on the ship, but to the grey hunter his pack's years of experience and proven capabilities were more valuable than an armies worth of primaris.
Ultimately primaris being just as effective or usually more so on the tabletop is a pretty big flavor fail, firstborn marines have been spending hundreds of years fighting everything from xenos to demons and their battle-hardened capabilities should easily outstrip anything some gene tinkering brings to the table. plus C'MON GW they're just so much more iconic!
If first born don't get any love alongside primaris, I hope we get an end times for 40k and a reset to before roboute returned. GW didn't need to change the sculpts, they just had to increase the scale. They didn't need to add to the lore like this. It's always a minute to midnight but the galaxy is so large that any number of events could take place in it without advancing the story too far
Thats somthing that has bugged me in recent years. I had no problem with them nudging it along abit here and there, like with the I think 6th edition explaining how the astromonicon (how ever you spell it) is growing dim and the golden throne is fucking up and its getting harder and harder to fix as time as on. Further driving home the theme of imperium just being in more and more shitty situation. But the primaris and gullyman .....it really didnt need it. The setting to me was set up in such a way that like you say its all about to turn to shit but with a universe so big and the time period alot of shit can and does still happen.
I believe what we are seeing is the unexpirenced primaris eat shit. But as more firstborn cross the Rubicon and chapters make new primaris following their doctrine, we'll see the childing first wave of primaris switched for a more veteren wave and probably even replace firstborn.
As you said they are technically superior to their older brothers, but lack experience. I believe with time it'll change.
Edit: context.
As someone who only joined cause of 8th edition if very much was convinced by primaris to give 40k a chance.
Ive only retroactively enjoyed firstborn because if the Horus heresy. But sadly that firstborn enjoyment doesn't exist in 40k since the WEs and White scars essentially get nothing.
But yeah. End of comment.
Good point! Yeah I think you’re right in regards to where this will head I think
Astartes are very different in both 30 and 40k, however I am curious as to how the primaries are different to you?
Yeah, its like a young boxer and an old one. Although the young one has a bunch of advantages more often then not they lack the experience, or sense, to capitalize on it.
Advance and charge all game long, +1 dmg to melee weapons in Ass doctrine is..nothing? You are playing wrong.
I just got into 40k last year and building a firstborn army. Simply because I like the design more, there are more variations in armor and I like painting them more. I have yet to use them in a battle though, I only have a small army and I just finished painting them.
I suspect there are a couple of reasons why Primaris keep getting killed despite technically being stronger.
Part of it is the training. The initial batch of Primaris were trained by hypno-indoctrination instead of live training exercises, which didn't fully prepare the Primaris for real combat. When Cawl was giving Guilliman a demonstration of the Primaris it was noted that the Primaris had very robotic movements when taking out the demo combat servitor.
Then, we have their strategic and tactical doctrine. The Primaris seemed designed with the original legionary system in mind where you have so many marines running around a single battlefield that individual squads could afford to be more specialized and weaker since they can often expect support from nearby Astartes. This can be seen in the differences between chapter-era tactical squads and Intercessor squads as well as the similarities between Intercessor squads and legion tactical squads.
I suspect that if you took an average space marine from a chapter and pitted him against an average legionary marine, the chapter marine would win since under the chapter system, Marines had to adapt to become more self-sufficient because it was unlikely that a group of chapter marines deployed to a warzone could expect other marines to come and help in any large numbers or in short time. Same applies to chaos marines-while they never officially disbanded the legions, most were still split into smaller warbands that also had to adapt to survive the harsh Darwinian pressures of the Eye of Terror that would result in anyone left alive generally being a vicious, hardy monster of an Astartes.
I agree. As the centuries drag on it wouldn't surprise me if the primaris improved through harsh lessons learned in the field. It's how the Red Army in WWII got over Stalin's HIGHCOM purges and their initial logistical issues during the early days of Operation Barbarossa. The Primaris just have to grit their teeth, dig in their heels, and learn.
Well stated brother, another thing about the primaris being so robotic is that they never got the human experience that so many of the first born got before becoming a neo. Primaris are basic assembly line products, they may be bigger and stronger but the lack of experience will always be their downfall. First born were human first so they will know what they are fighting for.
@Jake Hinton I still believe that the robotic movements are due to their lacking training since it has been noted that many of the original batch of Primaris were nicer than modern space marines because many were originally born during the Crusade or Heresy era where the Imperium was far more humane and rational. An example was a Primaris Dark Angel who treated a normal human woman like an actual person while his Firstborn superior officers regarded the mortal as little above a serf or slave.
As an interesting side note, there was an Imperial Fist Primaris Marine who recalled being a young boy during the Siege of Terra and one of his memories was trying to hide from an Emperor's Children marine preying on the local populace.
@@easonyeung2779 All Space Marines undergo Hypno-indoctrination and all Greyshields were veteran 30k legionaires tested upon. Let's not type stupid words out when the answer can be found a google search away.
I think there are several reasons in lore why we see Primaris dying a lot.
The main one is as you said, a lack of real battlefield experience.
Primaris are inherently great marksmen and great at adjusting trajectory etc when firing any of their weapons as shown in all the novels featuring them. Within their own squad level deployments they perform well generally.
But they are not invincible. The battles around Ultramar alone show this clearly. Gulliman accepted the essentially multi legion sized Primaris marine force and used it as a blunt instrument to stem the tide against the falling imperium.
But a lot of those self same marines die often needlessly due to overestimating their own abilities. How many Primaris Lieutenants have died because they challenged a Chaos Lord or Sorceror in Terminator Armour? Or even just a "normal" chaos lord? In the end its a lot.
I liked that the codex reintroduced the rank of Lieutenant and I even hunted down one of the old Rogue Trader Lieutenants to use as a Firstborn Lieutenant in my company.
But I still prefer Firstborn myself. I own plenty of Primaris bc of the 8th Edition starter sets and god knows I bought a heap of them at the time...
But in the end I prefer firstborn marines. The one instance where I can see the benefit of Primaris over Firstborn is in smaller scale engagements like Kill Team. Where you don't need to be truly specialised bc when facing multiple types of enemies often a Generalist build will actually carry the day.
I like how the Primaris look, but I like how the FirstBorn play and how cool their lore is!
I like the idea of all of cawls primaris phasing out quickly
I do think they are fixing the Primaris, a little. I mean they have stated that the Primaris are now learning more from the only first born then what Girlyman has told them to do. As more veterans cross the rubicon I believe they will get stronger, smarter, and better.
That Word Bearer absolutely DEMOLISHED Arios. Not even the Emperor in his prime could come back from such a roast.
I've actually only really started getting in to the setting again (after being initially introduced to it in middle or high school) around the time Primaris and the return of Guilliman happened, so amusingly, to me they're just part of the overall setting.
This is why I think of my primaries units as first born that have crossed the Rubicon, and are tougher for the experience.
Im coming back into 40k from 2nd ed. I think GW realize that long term, in 10 years, most of the space marines fielded by TT players will be primaris. That the firstborn models will see atrophy in their use over the years. As players come to adopt the primaris that will settle the primaris into the lore symbiotically with how they are fielded IRL and how ppl feel about fielding them. GW predicted growing pains, but have been smart enough to bring their fandom kicking and screaming into what they understood to be the future of 40k.
Jeez, why don't you gargle GW's balls a little more.
They thought they could count on complacency & go "ehhh theyll just get desperate & buy them anyways."
with at least die hard unironically buying modern GW product thats the case, but i hope 3d prinring stuff comes and helps.
That passage from throne of light was delightfully well done.
I think in the future the Space Marine training and advancement will be brought back to what it is in the codex, only now the neophytes will receive the 2 new implants (we've seen GW release primaris neophytes with the Black Templars, so who knows) and now they are like the marines in the Horus Heresy, where even if they are just useless under-skilled muscle, they're still needed for the fractured Imperium.
Space Marines get to feel a taste of what the Thunder Warriors felt. If Big E was still active, I'm sure the primaris would be perfected to use new gene seed or attempted alterations to get rid of the flaws. The main objective of Big E making the space marines wasn't just stronger soldier but, for loyalty so pure it could withstand the Chaos Gods. If Big E could create a normal human that was impervious to Chaos with no weird quirk, I'm sure he'd choose that over a larger stronger soldier that had the potential to betray. TBH, I still don't understand why they dont purposely allow worse genes to die and increase better ones. Like Salamanders should be larger than most legions purely for proving them to be good, loyal, and their quirk isn't nearly as negative as the other chapters.
@spider-spectre funny you said salamanders, their genetic deviancy rate is a whopping 90% in their geneseed, out of all the founding legions, they are said to be the most likely to develop abnormalities.
Which is a strange bit of lore seeing as alot of the "more stable" geneseed of other chapters developed genetic abnormalities ( space wolves, blood angel's, hell even later successor chapters) and yet the salamanders seem unaffected.
I would reckon the reason why the imperium doesn't destroy gene-seed is they probably have no metric or predictive model, for which blood line will weaken, develop abnormalities, or turn traitor.
add in the religious worship and fervor wrapped around space marines as "the emperors living angels walking among us" and well? Other factions are probably too afraid to try and explain why they destroyed (or tried to destroy) a labor of their god-emperor's very hands, based on "a hunch"...no-one wants to risk THAT... so they just cross fingers and hope.
I think the initial Primaris really have a lot to make up and suffer huge attrition rates but the ones who make it through will gain that experience. After the initial mass deployment, which is kind of an emergency measure, the ones who are trickled in as replacements to groups will probably have more time to learn. I'm pretty new so I don't have the attachment to the old models, but I think the new ones do look a lot better too.
Enjoyed this, just found the channel this morning and I like your style of lore video with the right amount of literature citation mixed with good well thought out interpretation delivered with a well spoken rhythm. So glad to find a new lore channel
Just found this channel, I enjoy the way you present lore!
Reminds me of the movie Soldier with Kurt Russel. The older soldiers with Kurt Russel were replaced with a new younger generation of super soldiers who were stronger, faster, etc. But they lacked the experience, knowledge and even common sense the older soldiers had, and ended up getting all wiped out to a man by Kurt Russel by himself because of it.
I wrote a post some years ago on the subject of Primaris being a problem NOT as a concept but in it's introduction in lore ; most specifically, how GW dropped the balls hard on explaning their origin despite having all the elements to make it perfect.
In a nutshell (compared to my original post), all that GW had to do was explaining that the "Primaris" marines were in fact the "fixed" version of the Thunder Warriors. That, originally, the Emperor made the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra fast and were damn good at it (in fact, lore wise, they were stronger than the Space Marines we know of for the ten thousand years that followed) but had the big disadvantage of being prone to episodes of going completely psychotic. Hence the Emperor killing them once Terra was conquered and making the Space Marines in their wake, overall weaker but also more stable, which was perfect for the great crusade. And since, during the whole crusade, the marines seemed to overall perform well - especially after being reunited with their primarch (minus some exceptions), the Emperor could focus on the imperial webway project and not bother with the legacy of the Thunder Warriors.
Then the Heresy happened.
Half the Legions gone traitor.
Primarchs dead or lost, left and right.
Imperium critically weakened and severly undermanned.
Even in it's severly diminished state after the fight with Horus, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call for Gullyboy and Bellyboy for a last attempt at resurrecting the Thunder Warriors, if only to give mankind one last shot at survival (no primarch template to be corrupted - just pure raw unbritled Thunder Warriors.) To that end, big E give Bellisarius "carte blanche" alongside all the relevant datas available regarding the Thunder Warriors project to achieve that outcome.
A task that took ten thousand years to be carried through. A testament to the Emperor's scientifical might, the imperium's decay and Bellisarius' own genius to finally catch on with the Emperor (if ever only slightly) after litteraly working on it for millenars.
See, it doesn't even take a quarter hour to write that and it fits and connects all the dots. Had GW followed that path, we wouldn't be where we are now.
Great video homie!
A very good video! I think the comparison with mass-produced marines during the Hersey is very apt - they are chaff to hold the tide at bay. Perhaps that is black library's intention?
That story about the Brazen Drakes chapter you spoke of opens with the line ‘Apprehend these traitors’. Those Primaris *knew* they were dead men walking, with no recourse.
I love primaris but it you shouldn't start as one. You need to earn it by proving yourself in battle as worthy. Neophite go through the surgery become and astarties then primares. Btw I WANT A TYBEROS PRIMARIS MODEL
Oh GOD Abbadon would be fucked
@@livefromtheblacklibrary Abba who? Abba gone!
@@valdr2286 Mama Mia!
@@TornaitSuperBird exactly
You just earned yourself another subscriber friend! Ty
I loved the video, thanks!
Black Templars do it an interesting way, they have initiates and neophytes on a squad together. Learning as they work their way up. Or they just killed the Primaris😁🤷♂️
Dark Angels use them as cannon fodder. I would bet A LOT, of Chapters would choose to do this. They get the experience or die, for Space Marines this is about right. Would explain why they always die.
I think that this is wonderful writing and story telling. The primaris are just kids who woke in as astartes, in most stories they do die alot more then marines and in the first battle I read with primaris I noticed how easy some of them just got dropped. And it has been a consistent theme with them.. One of the more recent books even mentioned that at the start they had high casualties but as time went on their casualty rates dropped.
The Space wolves even started implementing that the Primaris undergo a modified version of the trials their recruits go through give them the specials stuff.
Think of all the ridiculous trials all the astartes put their aspirants through, think on how the brutal conditions these recruits come from. The primaris are missing that key component and I really like they kept the natural consequences that would arise by the rules of the 40k universe. It is a story element that we have not gotten before and is pretty cool for all the elements in the lore it is giving us.
This channels bussin hell yeah subed and watching it all ☠️
Great insight and choice of topic 👏👏👏 I love your channel because we get to debate interesting shit like this. Keep up the great work mate 👌
Thanks man! I will!
The Wolf Times novel from Dawn of Fire went in depth about this subject and I agree with your argument as far as to say that the Primaris are amateur's in live combat and that the indoctrination routine of each Space Marine Chapter and it Legion is critical in to marine's physical and mental composure in and outside combat. Not to mention Fabius Biel might find a way to reengineer and add to Caul's work to make a new Chaos Space Marine... maybe even a new Primach
This is a really good video. I'm currently reading "Wrath of the Lost" by Chris Forrester. It's a new Flesh Tearers novel that's really good. It follows a company of entirely primaris Flesh Tearers as they reestablish themselves on the Flesh Tearer's homeworld (after the devastation of Baal). And I've been noticing that the primaris seem to die a bunch and have less than nuanced tactics. This video really helped put things in prospective for me and also validates Gabriel Seth's, and other's concerns regarding the new primaris marines.
"...we have fought the long war for ten-thousand years..."
Archmagos Belisarius Cawl: EXACTLY.
the youtube algorithm sends me. ill give you the benefit of the doubt and try to have you carry me into slumber. so far, i am well impressed. that ambience is nice, also good spesh marine voices.
subbed for sure
i think the primaris have some hero's journey's to go through and we should all give that time to develop through the lore . the hints are there that they are like children still ,i think different chapter will have to make there new trails and training to make them fulfill there potential .
Been nearly 6 years.
Still dumb
The origin lore Still and forever will be the biggest blunder of primaris.
I respect your statement. 👍
I think it would of made more sense if they had made them not as improvement, but rather they were prototype of the First Born found. Leading to Belisaruius trying to recreate how to make space marine instead of trying to improve them. The primaris would instead be lesser or imperfect version of first born.
The main issue most people seem to have is that the Primaris are made to be an actual improvement over First Born which is hard to digest. Surely the emperor would of developed them instead if they were an actual improvement.
Since I'm still a newer 40k fan I don't have a super strong opinion on the artificially grown primaris marines. Don't super like them or super hate them. I don't have anything against them existing but I agree that they could've been written better.
I do personally prefer the way the new armor and bolters looks though. Guess my primaris army can all be upgraded first borns or something like that.
I'm a born again gamer. I played 2nd to 4th edition and have just got back into the game. I love how the Nu Marines look most of the old marine model are the same ones I was playing with 20 years ago and they're really showing their age. As for the lore, well 10th edition looks set to wipe out the divide between old and new so I guess they've finally earned their chops.
6:30 wow your voice work is awesome!
"Comes our fully armored and in front line service. This is not how things work"
Space Wolves: well, that's where you are wrong kiddo!
A well done video, I have had the same thoughts about the Primaris myself. I feel like they just lack the character of the older marines. As you said in the video, they were released as a cash grab. A way to make older space marine players have to buy new models. As a result, they were ham fisted into the story with very minor attempts to make logical in universe reasons for them to be accepted.
This is old news. The new books are already successful exploring different in lore ways of integrating (and in the case of some Black Templars; NOT integrating them ☠️) them into the established chapters. On the other hand, hopefully the new founding chapters will be able to learn and grow independently from the first born chapters and grow new stories from their own experiences.
Been playing this game since the 90's. I remember when "Firstborn", or just space marines back then would go from scout to Assault Marine, jump pack close combat troops once initiated on the ways of the Chapter during the scout. Once they again proved themselves there, they would move to tactical. Devastator Squads were meant for old-head tactical marines back then. A good visual example would be the Long Fangs of the Space Wolves; all grey hair.
I think the Blood Angels, with their penchant for blood and close quarters also assigned the old veterans to Devastator Squads.
With all this fluff history in mind, I like this retcon change in the story and think it makes more sense.
3rd edition maybe? Been sooo long.
A short Dark Angel story, there's a 3 man squad of Primaris, were sent to a traitor ship to locate the bridge. They were judged by their firstborn brothers not as equals or earn to called brothers, these 3 what were remaining from their full 10 from mission after mission.
During their mission, one of them scouted ahead to clear a path. But was killed before met up with death wing Terminators for the bridge but ordered to hold the line. One was killed by Sonic weapon, and the remaining one held the line against a swarm of cultists. Running out of ammo and a knife losing its sharpness, he shouted in the lions name and carried his will as he was about to die but saved by the Death wing.
Through his actions, he was proven himself in battle and inducted into the death wing
I think this is a lesson on why astartes are not trained by the mechanicus, or why they aren't kept in deep storage when not in use. It's the life experience and warrior culture that make astartes powerful. The primaris might as well be extra strong Skitarii using primarch gene seed.
Also this has a lot of parallels with Star Wars and the heavy casualties on the first battle of Geonosis. The clones were essentially a brand new army with zero veterans in it, and as a result, took way more casualties than it had to. Later in the war, the veteran clones became extremely lethal and efficient. As much as I really don't like primaris or how they've been implemented, I like this angle and hope the first wave of primaris develop a lot like the first wave of clones
there is a book that does a very good job explaining the inexperience of Primaris. Basically a pair of Ultramarines, one a chaplain and the other I think a newly minted assault sergeant are put in charge of leading a squad of Primaris assigned to them. One of their first combat missions was boarding an imperial ship that wasn't responding and encountering Iron warriors. The two normie marines kept a cool head and gave out orders but the newmbies bumbled frequently, with one of them basically throwing himself at an Iron Warrior kamikaze style in a suicide attack for no reason, and this was a Chaplain saying this. The two normie marines quickly concluded the Primaris were way too green and undisciplined. The mission got done and the Primaris did grow a bit throughout but the normie marines didn't make it.
Roboute could have given Belisarius the order to create new weapons and armour for the indomitus crusade.
That way the new models are still first born marines, but in better armour with more powerful weapons.
At least the Black Templars do the right thing. "Nope, nope! Back to Neophyte status with you. We dont have scout armour to fit you? Hold the techmarines beer." Ok, maybe not a direct quote, but still.
Like firstborn, Primaris likely have a wide range of skill. Some primaris seem to rival some firstborn, and that's a fun dynamic. I like the dynamic they add, especially after watching this video. They add a lot to the lore. Subscribed!
Well, for me, the hole Primaris Lore is just a rush to justify the new and improved Model range - and dont get me wrong: those Models are great. The new Scale is so sweet.
From a technically side, it was time to improve one of the best assets they have in range and oh boy, it changed a lot. Those new models are better to paint, more vibrant and dynamic and they really catch the look of those superhumans they are. With these, a lot of new people found their way into the hobby and thats a good thing in my opinion.
On the other hand, Primaris were a slap in the face of players who had collected the smaller Marines for DECACDES! Nobody really wants to field the old Models and the new shiny Primaris on the table together as it always feels like the Primaris has brought their kids to work today bcs of the scale. But the new Rules and stuff made up for it anyways so, yeah it was a cashgrab in some sort. But one that was - again- willingly served by the fans. Ind yes, I was one of them too, abandon my beloved Blood Angels Army for new shiny Raptor Primaris Bois. May the emperor have mercy with my soul.
Anyway - The model range now reshaped and the people hyped, the only last problem was the lore. And thats exactly how their story feels. There was no really good idea to justify this and the hole Prmaris theme feels kind of odd and short fused. I think, even the writers of the novels a bit displeased with the hole "improved by a primarch" thingy and there was no time to really adapt and implement a fitting lore side as these Primaris simply popped up on the battlefields bcs NEW MODELS! This needs more time to develop into a sensefull and well working storyline.
So, in conclusion, to see the "first born" as the more experienced and better fighting Marines in the lore, this is just a bandaid for all the veteran players who are looking at their old marine collection and miss the good old glory days of battle. At least thats my feeling about it.
100%,
They are ugly as fuck, have no character, most models are monopose and the lore is terrible ....
I think they were so many people trying to kit-bash their marines into Tru-Scale that GW saw it as a move they needed to make and invented a story arch to support it.
Guilliman comes back: Hey I have tens of thousands new toys! The Lion comes back: I have a handfull of 1st Legion sons. That's why one is Frontline and the other ...Logistics.
I think this is something that will be rectified in the future, at the moment they are all inexperienced,in Dawn of Fire we see characters like Messinius being put into mentor-like roles for these marines, it hasn't been long enough yet for the primaris to acquire the experience and the necessary fighting instinct if we count the Dark Imperium barely 12 years have passed, similar problems to this also had the first borns at the dawn of the legions see for example the Salamandes who even seemed to have a disposition for meaningless martyrdom
You make a lot of good points. I personally think that the primaris were a means to an end. The first born were not being created fast enough, or, being lost at such a rate that it was not sustainable. This is probably the best thing they could have done for the empirium heretical or not. Stem the bleeding and get marines into the field. Eventually the strong will survive and be able to better train the new guys. And honestly things cant stay the same forever, cash grab or not 40k needed something new. Was it the right thing? That isnt for me to say. But i love the primaris and cant wait to see what is in store for them in the future.
I would have liked it if primaris were just the term for the space marines armed with new weapons kept in secret around the galaxy versus being new marines
First time on the channel and by Sigmar that was some really nice voice acting. Now I'm excited to see (or I guess "hear") more
I’ve always found it interesting that just how the imperium doesn’t like change the fan base doesn’t like change either. For the short time I’ve been in 40k I’ve always found that the fan base opinions always mirrors that of the imperium.
There's a reason age of sigmar gets cool new sculpts for models and 40 k just gets new reimagined old crap
A big part of dismay is that most of the time when GW changes something they discontinue, remove rules support and/or replace actual physical things we've been spending a lot of time, money and creative energy on.
@@Yurt_enthusiast7 nothing last forever and nothing stopping you from homebrew rules.
@kris brooks Good to know?
@@krisbrooks1825 that’s why I always like the new stuff they bring to 40K
Most chapters follow the codex training the order: Scout> Devastators> Close Combat> Tactical Marine.
However, the Space Wolves don't, they go Scout> Blood Claw (CC)> Grey Hunter (TM)> Long Fang (D) and the Black Templars just have three step's: Neophyte (scout)> Initiate (TM) which can advance to Sword Brother (Sergeant).
You got that wrong Space Wolf Scouts are some of the most veteran space wolves along the same lines as Long Fangs. Blood Claws are first and they are sent charging in with sword and bolter. Personally I view Primaris as just more tactical Blood Claws
Another thing that could cause mistrust in the primaris is that they arent the first Space Marines that are brought up with unconventional methods.
Those would be the Inductii, wich were pretty much mass produced marines used to keep the Legions numerous during the Horus Heresy, they had all sorts of physical and mental problems due to rushed implantation procedures and invasive mental procedures to have them trained quickly.
With how long Astartes live it wouldnt surprise me if they still remembered what happened the last time Marines werent trained trough the traditional channels and were still resentfull and wary of it happening agin.
Oh he explains it on the video, damn
The primaris were always emergency reinforcements, I've seen it slowly rectified as they gain experience. Every chapter needed these reinforcements, it is a desperate time for the Imperium.
I like everything about Primaris and it adds a great new plot line to the Marine narrative
I like the Primaris and I like the way they function. They’re a false hope. The Imperium gets new and improved space marines with new and improved gear at the cost of combat instinct/wisdom. I think that’s fitting for a grim dark setting.
"These are incredibly upgraded space marines. Faster, stronger and with better armor"
Why do they keep getting folded, then?
I like how Logan Grimnar handled the Wolf Spears. The old man asked for veterans to volunteer those that survived the the upgrade were attached as wolf guard to the new jarl to help show them how the Vylka fought 10000 years after the original legions were trained.
I love Primaris Marines btw, the change up, models and everything. great video, hope they get better did not know they never went through scout ranks
I think it makes sense for Primaris to struggle at first and openly disagree with all the hate they get. To be clear, I only joined this recently, and don't really have anything against Firstborn other than how funny they look. But it is just as you said. They aren't experienced, but for some reason, people are expecting that they should be singlehandedly mowing down planets' worth of enemies. As time progresses the new marines will learn how things work, and things will get better. I thought they did fairly well in the Plaque Wars.
unrelated but i always found it weird they viewed fire support guys as lower than "riflemen" or guys with bolters in the line. In reality you want more senior guys with the big guns, as the big guns are extremely important, even on the fireteam level, you dont give a boot a SAW or 240 because its heavier, you give it to a guy with a couple years in who you can really trust to run it as it serves as the base of fire in the attack, and how important those weapons are in the defense.
i like the idea of the primaris being the rich kids on the block who have no idea what theyre doing
I mean, my interpretation is that the Primaris were rushed into the assorted chapters by Guilliman, who probably guessed there would be issues but felt that it was better to use the Primaris immedietely and save the Imperium (what was left of such) than let them be slowly assimilated into the legions.
Eventually, the Primaris will figure stuff out, and will be handled better. Its likely that many new space marines would go through the Rubicon to become primaris after they serve in the scout and devastator legions.
What really made me angry about the Primaris integration was the book about them being brought into the fold in the Dark Angels. A Lieutenant Primaris marine basically disarms a Company Master, just walking in. That's nonsense. Stronger and faster are one thing, but a Company Master, especially one of the First Legion, is someone who has been around for decades if not centuries of combat operations. It was just a silly story about prejudice and why you're wrong if you don't like the Primaris. It's particularly galling when they pull that narrative routine on the Dark Angels which pride themselves on a structured and disciplined system of integration, and this clown walks in and shuts down the most elite of their number, almost by instinct alone. Why did the author need to humiliate oldschool marines to introduce the new goof troop? In any case, I'm more pleased that the rules has finally put veteran marines on par with their Primaris equivalents in terms of stats, which I can be satisfied with, while a Captain is still a cut above the rank and file of either type. My favorite 40k art will remain the Interrogator Chaplain dragging a blueberry Primaris Lieutenant across the cell floor.
We need more white scars lore man. I’m dying over here
My legion The Emperors Hounds, was created for TTRPG so they are far from normal.
but they recruit direct from the battle field. They find those guardsmen who, in impossible situations hold the faith. Almost every battle brother was once a nearly crippled mortal soldier.
There is no substitute for zeal.
While a child might believe in the Emperor or may be indoctrinated that is no match for a man full grown who has had his faith tested and not been found wanting.
All of this is to say that in my chapter, Primaris are not even regarded as well as the puppies.
When girlyman forced others to accept the primaris at gun point, we accepted (the Emperors Hounds are drastically under strength). Then we stripped them of gear, gave them a set of carapace and a combat knife and five requisition, and promptly sent them on training maneuvers.
I am just waiting for a single sign of corruption in any of the players who insist on being primaris. So far all good.