I only found that term right as I was finishing this video 🥲 also I feel like the term Science-Fantasy is more inline with regular fantasy (like Star Wars) as opposed to the unique and specific themes of dark fantasy (aside from just being dark) and the term “dark science-fantasy” just sounds a bit lame XD
@@livefromtheblacklibrary yeah you can only add so many adjectives before it becomes ridiculous and the dark dystopian hopelessness of the setting needs ro be prominent in its description.
No not really. Considering fantasy and fiction are functionally synonyms. And fantasy has a connotation of being set in the past. I would stick with Science fiction. And this guy is wrong. It's not a "space opera". It's Sci-fi epic tragedy.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary More like Science Fantasy but for late 80s/90s era edgelords lol Hence why Warhammer 40K (and HH) as settings are mostly concentrated in a single milky way galaxy
@@jamesespinosa690 dude stfu, Fantasy means anything based on magic. Even D&D has Space adventures with star craft. The Warp can be considered "magical" along with The Force, hence the term "Space-Fantasy" applies.
I mean 40k can and is a lot of things -fantasy in space (eldar and orks) -cosmic horror (chaos, tyranids and maybe necrons) -story of knights and paladins (space marines and imperial knights) -not even gonna try categorising the drukarii and harleyquins -generic sci-fi (tau) -mad max punk (necromunda) -mythology (the primarchs) etc. it's what makes it great, that every stile and genre can be represented
Youve also got a bunch of stuff covered with the guard: ww1 and ww2 aesthetics, 80’s action movies/Vietnam, historical colonial themed troops etc Can’t think of another universe that essentially has paladin knights and mages, the squad from predator, vehicles from mad max, xenomorphs, gundams and hellraiser all in one franchise 😂
It's science fantasy. However, I don't agree entirely with the conclusion it doesn't have significant sci-fi themes; for example, the Primarchs and the Heresy explore themes of transhumanism, hierarchies based on strength, and human nature as ultimately fallibility and corruptible. The setting generally looks at religious fanaticism, state control, the value of human life, and nihilism on the context of overwhelming adversity.
Yeah, I fully agree with you. One look at the Mechanicus, the Necrons, the Tau or the Leagues of Votann immediately throw away the notion there's not enough Sci-Fi in 40k. Even their magic system is based on in universe science.
For me, I got into 40k late 2019, during the Era indomitus, so I love the primarchs returning, and have no issue with the primaris. I think the only issues come from the new base clashing with the old. I know people still apparently hate the primarchs returning or even the overall story advancing. Apparently some much older fans even hate the heresy being fleshed out because they preferred the idea of it being a lost myth. I believe every opinion is valid, and it's important everyone can enjoy the hobby equally, and don't try to gate keep it from new fans
@@livefromtheblacklibrary hope ya didn't take the comments in a negative way. Loved this video and have been enjoying the others. Keep up the great work. Hopefully you'll be the next pancreas no work and go from 10k Subs to 100k in like a year
Haha very lucky, when I heard of primaris, I felt like… huh?! Because it was a sudden revelation in new lore.I’m old school space marines but I soon learn to like primaries too.
I got into it a few years before Primaris were a thing. I wouldn't have minded it if their entire launch and justification both in and out of universe wasn't completely botched. I don't think anyone would have really cared all that much today if GW said the models were bigger to make them easier to paint, while not changing their height in universe and Cawl only making the armor and vehicles. Instead GW published the Gathering Storm, which while not a bad concept was terribly rushed and executed. I like Primaris these days, units like Blade Guard and the release of transfer kits to customise your models added much needed variety to their model line, but lauch Primaris were terrible and we're still feeling the effects to this day. All because GW wanted their cake right now and got food poisoning. TL;DR Corporate greed is bad and gives us terrible books and models.
I always took 40k, now at least, as Cosmic horror in a sci-fi setting. Multiple elements within the system pushing further and further in, delayed but never stopped, until the eventual destruction of all things including itself. Excellent video Chrono!
I see the Warhammer 40K setting as a combination of lovecraftian horror, splatterpunk, cyberpunk, steampunk, medieval fanaticism, military sf, mythology, dark fantasy, dark parody, bloody insanity and grim dystopian darkness. The Emperor Protects!
WH40K asks: What if humanity had to conquer and endure in "the Dark Forrest" as per the popular hypothesis concerned with the socialization of interstellar civilizations. At least in my opinion, just with stuff added that sells the product and is snatched from every space-opera since the early days of sci-fi.
There's actually a lot of time travel in 40k but it's a bit more unique than other verses. Luetin has a huge video going into it. The short of it, the warp "can" act as a imprecise conduit for time travel.
I agree with the Dark Fantasy idea, Look at all the older art done for 40k, I have been a WH40k fan since the early 90's, and I love it for the over the top insanely dark nature. AS for where it is going, I tend to think it has been watered down and moving away from the everyone is the bad guy idea. and I would not be surprised that power swords and chain swords start to fade away. But this is better for bringing in newer people, the older stuff would make some shy away because it is too dark. and GW wants more people to buy their models. Just look at the box art of the older boxes, and the first Rogue Trader book, now look at the newer art on boxes, much tamer. and it helps bring in newer and younger customers.
That's really interesting to me as I remember getting my first 40k set in the early/mid 90s too. (My Ork Dreadnought was the best painted item in the set! 😁 😂) But I feel that GW has leaned into the "We're so dark" trope as time's gone on. Early 40k was much more tongue in cheek, from names to powers and even stories. There was a playfulness that I think the huge size of modern GW has swallowed whole. We still see a glimpse of it every now and again though. 😉 Isn't it funny how people have different perceptions? 😁
I mean hey, look at the new Chaos Space Marine, World Eater, or Militarum codex art... They're really not brightening the setting up, it's just as metal as the old stuff. As for swords and such... Look at the Black Templar range. I think GW knows what makes 40k 40k and they won't get rid of it. Even the "noblebright" Votann are pretty friggin scary when it's your planet they find.
I feel like, thanks to the creation of the Circatrix Maledictum, you could see a sort of "Schismatic Imperium" much like what happened with Rome. Under the half directly under the control of Guilliman, you would see some progress and advancement, while the other half would become more dogmatic and oppressive. This would allow for a variety of narrative themes when weaving stories and greater story arcs.
Considering the changes to the definition of the sci-fi genre and how much cross over there used to be with fantasy in the genre ( John Carter of Mars and the like were considered sci-fi once), 40k and Star Wars could no doubt be considered sci-fi under an earlier paradigm
Well 40k is sci fi, half of this video is made of lies to artificially create a point. Sci-fantasy is sci-fi anyway, fantasy is by definition a fiction, so any sci-fantasy is by definition sci-fiction.... I mean, I understand the guy has to make videos to pay the rent but... I don't know, please don't lie to my face for that ?
The issue with the assessment is that much of 40k has many aspects of the setting that are scifi - if humanities reliance on technology but inability to innovate would lead them - when does augmentation make you less human or can you still be “human” And although the setting contains fantasy races, 40k is more overt with it. Mass effect Star trek and halo have their strong barbarian warrior races and sleek aloof elegant races. Only difference is 40k just uses “elves, and orks” And sci-fi has its gods it’s only difference often is they are wrapped in a Dawkins kind of “they are gods to us but they are just hyper evolved beings or we are in a simulations” ultimately though they are more like pagan dirties then an abrahamic concept of a god. 40k is definitely more easily able to tap into those archetypes of myths and legends but i think that speaks more to it’s timelessness So overall there is still a lot that can make 40k sci-fi
Good points! I did consider all that but it felt to me like those questions are mostly made by the reader after the fact as opposed to directly asked by the narrative/author itself. Furthermore the way things like the different races and God are portrayed and they way they interact with each other just feels much closer to dark fantasy for me than the way sci-fi deals with them
@@livefromtheblacklibrary that is true, however I think it’s a mixture of the two. Most stories don’t necessarily raise the questions mostly because they are existing within the setting rather then most works that are often stand alone or part of an overarching series with a conclusion to its thesis. Much of the Star Trek, alien, and battletech novels are like this. I’d also agree that the races act this way by nature of their cultures. And if someone prescribes to a more cyclical view of history then character behavior being more anachronistic outside of aesthetic makes sense from that view
I prefer the term “speculative fiction” for Science Fiction, as the best science fiction addresses those “what if” questions you’re talking about. You’re right on the money that 40k is dark fantasy, though I would qualify that as “dark fantasy with sci-fi tendencies” as some recent works did start to address issues like transhumanism.
40K is a satirical dark fantasy disguised as nihilistic space opera. I’m kind of take or leave on the new novels (Dawn of Fire), but I’ve enjoyed the lore stuff in the first two Arks of Omen books. What I hope never goes away entirely is the fact that in 40K everyone is an unreliable narrator.
You covered it with that exert from The Death Of Integrity but I was going to say that 40K feels of course like dark fantasy but also like its set in a post sci fi universe with the Gold age of Tech and STC's being that Sci Fi stage of the setting
40k has always been a kitchen-sink setting, where you can throw a little bit of everything in and it works. It isn't usually scifi, but it stole scifi pieces. It isn't usually military fiction, but imperial guard books often are, and the flavor is present throughout. It isn't usually cosmic horror, but it's always lurking in the corners. I do think dark fantasy is the largest "donor," though and in glad this video shows that off, since I didn't fully clock that before.
I would hesitate to group Dune with the speculative fiction type sci fis like star trek or interstellar or what have you, as it cast off a lot of what made sci fi sci fi in favour of transhumanism, prophesies, mysticism, feudalism, etc. It's no secret that other than Warhammer Fantasy the biggest influence on 40k was Dune, so I think it should definitely be grouped with 40k in a kind of "post collapse socially and scientifically regressed space opera" genre
40k isn't one thing. Neither is 'sci-fi' or ' dark fantasy' or anything else for that matter. Genres are made to be used, expanded upon and remixed ad infinitum, not followed like scripture. Most narratives borrow and blend elements from a myriad of story-telling traditions. I personally don't think we should get too caught up in discussing whether a piece of fiction matches X or Y genre the most -- because that's not the point of these imaginative worlds.
40k is a pretty direct homage to Dune, basically "What-if Dune but more stupid and cruel + Orks and Elves models we've got laying around from fantasy" focused through the aesthetics lenses of 80's British sci-fi Punk that was pioneered by the likes of 2000ad. The direct parallels with Dune: Mentats-Servitors, Navigators - Navigators, Bene Gesserit-Psykers (Bene Gesserit are insulted as witches for their powers), space marines-saradakaur, and the emperor to Leto the 2. hell the intro to 40k is a homage to the opening of Dune in construction.
Good point regarding the darkness of a setting would determine how 'free' people are to become whatever they want. Freedom to be a space marine implies a hopeful, brighter setting, and that is NOT what 40K is.
I like Primaris but i do agree the more recent addons are making them kinda silly. From what i understood of the lore coming in through Gathering Storm, the Primaris Project was simply made to make the space marine last a wee bit longer than a normal marine. I was expecting they would use the same wargear moving forward but having them adopt Replaceable Parts/Modular Components and absolutely new gear is kinda pushing the genre into a different direction. Look the Phobos, Tacticus, and Gravis armor are all the same. You can simply slap 2 other layers of armor on top of the phobos and make it Gravis. Gone are the days when some really talented artisan would craft a custom-made armor that speaks the identity of the character. Funny I got the Star Wars Ep 2 vibe of the Republic non-chalantly invading Geonosis and bamboozling the CIS with what appears to be an Instant Army. XXD
science fiction, abbreviation SF or sci-fi, a form of fiction that deals principally with the impact of actual or imagined science upon society or individuals.
I feel like you're creating boxes where no boxes are necessary. At most you can say it's a subgenre of sci-fi, but it's still caught in the massive umbrella that is science fiction.
Great treatise. You are very incisive. As far as I can tell, 40K is a medieval fantasy tale through and through. A legendary king, loyal knights, traitor knights, a kingdom in constant danger, and barbaric invaders (chaos forces, tyranids etc.) hellbent on destroying it.
As a new Warhammer 40K fan, I honestly like the new direction the setting is taking with the Era Indomitus. As for the Primaris, I really like their new tech, such as the Inceptors, and the grav-tanks such as the Astrateus.
As an old fan, I really hate a lot of the models, vehicles in particular. They look like they're from the wrong setting. Alfabusa's inq28 video describes it better than I can, but they just feel wrong when compared to everything that came before. They look way too new, a few chapter specific plastic transfers and a dirtier more utilitarian deisgn would have made them fit way better with the existing designs. See Bladeguard or Primaris Black Templar for what I mean.
Good video. And you put into words why female space marines lore wise don’t feel right to me or male soroitas. Yet I’d be overjoyed to see some conversions on the tabletop.
i always seen 40k as a "fantasy/SCI-FI kitchen sink" (or science-fantasy) kind of universe, taking everything both genre represent at their core. As you allready pointed out, gods and magic are just as real as the manufactured bolter rounds in a space marine's gun. And you have the medieval gothic ways of existing and enforced both by the Imperium of man, aswell as the chaos god and the warp. They clearly lean more heavily towards the fantasy aspect of the universe. Where factions such as the Necrons, Tau and now leagues of Votann repesent more the SCI-FI aspect of 40k. With Necrons having the same tropes and elements of the "precursor race" of the settings, mixed with the fear and genre of terminators "robot uprising/reawakening of doomsday machines" sci-fi trope. Who's main strength is their unmatched understanding of the physicals sciences and technology. The TAU represent the most sci-fi trope of all, with a race who have almost zero connection to the warp, use of technology and the Idea of a "new galactic race looking to interreact with the wider universe", like how sci-fi books with of simuler theme with "humanities first expanse into the universe, and possible encountering of alien races". And the leagues of Votann, representing as a small hermit nation state seeking to cut a piece of the galaxy in their name for wealth and profit. Kinda like how a giant corporation seeks control for their own interests (gives me deep rock galactic vibes) oh, i also guess the Tyranids, the SCI-FI trope of the all devouring swarm, straight out of "Alien", "Starship troopers" and "Ender's game". Still a very good video, and it rases many interesting viewpoints in how people view the 40k universe. (always I apologize for inappropriate english, its not my native tongue.)
Great video, thanks for diving into this. I agree with your points and can see what you mean about why stories post Gathering Storm don't have the same feel as previous stories.
Sci-Fi explores what is possible... and 40k explores the possibility that something like the Imperium of man is all humanity can be. Grimdark Sci-Fi is EXACLTY what it is just like Black Mirror, or the Twilight Zone. Sci-fi doesn't need to be uplifting, and you seem to think that is mandatory.
This is a great watch. I've been writing my own science fantasy setting for the past few years, and hopefully I can publish some books or turn it into video games eventually. It's also based on a "medieval" sort of styling of the future, a la 40k or Destiny, but more heavily coded in Arthurian myth, at least for the main human faction. Yet the overall outlook is different. My setting is not Dark Fantasy or grimdark, but it's not absolutely noble either. It's more along the lines of High Fantasy in space, to reinforce the mythic, heroic feel of some aspects, with some grimdark elements thrown in occasionally to not have the setting come off as too cliché.
@@jc7997aj Although it's pretty hard to summarize it that quick given how much background I've written down, the at-its-core setting synopsis in 50 words could go something like this: "In the distant Forge galaxy, a doomsday clock looms, promising godlike power to the species who reigns champion, and doom to all others. The many factions are bound by cosmic law, unable to leave the galaxy once inside. Some fight for glory, some for profit, and some for twisted justice."
@@josephzemanek3953 I dig it. Now you gotta decide what it is. Is it a game that has lore. Is it book series that then gets developed into a game, graphic novel or live action. You got time and many edits to go but you need to know what course that ship is sailing.
It also feels different because its main source of inspiration is the works of British sci fi/fantasy author Michael Moorcock, if 40k is beef stew his works are the beef.
Before the new stuff with indomitus, I saw 40k as an ethnographic deep dive into a possible future for man kind amongst the stars, prompting one to consider very human themes of what people experience within these historical and technological perimeters. it gives me similar vibes to books like Man after man where a narrative history is retroactively ascribed to a highly emotive aesthetic to justify it. I think like man after man however, despite the two being so different in content, I believe they both give me the same vibe because there's an intense focus on the human condition as we experience it but pushed the absolute limit.
I have my criticisms of new 40k, but there are plenty of things about it I like. I like the feelings of hurt and betrayal among the first born space marines towards the primaris that could potentially lead to intrachapter civil wars that could further weaken the chapters and make it harder for the Imperium to fend off chaos and xenos incursions. I like the almost cold war between Guilleman and the Ecclesiarchy that, if given just the right push by chaos or xenos, could lead to an Imperium-wide civil war that would send the Imperium multiple leaping hurdles to collapsing. I even like the more sway to nobledark over grimdark as the former is more appealing to newcomers to the hobby and lore, and in order for 40k to survive, it needs new blood coming in to the hobby and lore. Introducing nobledark into 40k wouldn't change much. The Imperium can still be a stagnating, crumbling, mortally wounded beast that refuses to give up and continues to push back with violence, and is plagued by nightmare bureaucracy and corrupt leaders. Nobledark can mean that though everything is still black and bleak, the stars still burn bright...for now.
For me it's not a Fantasy and Rick Parry never made it to be. It WAS (according to Rick Parry himself) meant to be a Scifi setting. The bit people miss is that from the 3rd Ed is that it was starting to be written with a Horror genre in a Scifi setting in the Lore. When I started in 2nd Ed is was a small skirmish game that GW wanted to expand to larger battles due to the popularity so expanded and adapted the lore and background
I honestly have to disagree. The hours heresy and 40k I read usually debate the nature of faith and human purpose. Which it shares with Dune though obviously not to the same extent. Good video though
Nice vid, eye opening. This reminded me of those 40k AI Art videos that kept using dark fantasy on the title. It makes a lot of sense, I guess i just never really tough about what genre it is.
You might be onto to something there when you call it a dark fantasy, because let's be real here; wh40k is basically a sci-fi version of a heavy metal album, don't believe me? Put a chaos marine on the front cover and ask a friend if he or she would like to listen to this awesome new metal genre called grim-dark.
It is both. Being fantasy doesn't exclude it being science fiction. Another example of this, and a series that could fit right in with the 40k universe, is a series of novels called The Coldfire Trilogy. By CS Friedman. It is clearly a dark fantasy. With magic called Fae. However if follows the descendants of Earth after they are stranded on a world that responds to their thoughts and fears. Though learn physics and engineering, technology is limited due to the interactions of By Fae and humanity and probability.
Today in "I don't understand what words and definitions mean", here are multiple definitions to remove the absolute defined incorrectness in this video: "Science fiction consists of stories in books, magazines, and films about events that take place in the future or in other parts of the universe." "a literary genre that makes imaginative use of scientific knowledge or conjecture" Collins "fiction of a highly imaginative or fantastic kind, typically involving some actual or projected scientific phenomenon" Websters "a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc" Harper Collins Dictionary definitions represent the human consensus of the meaning of the word. 100% of the above fit 40k, no matter what you say. I think you are mixing sub genres or approaches as actual genres. "Dark fantasy" can be a part of sci fi. Literally "..of a fantastic kind". It's BY definition in there.
Ah, the first discussion of the differences between sci-fi/fantasy. And before I've seen the daffodils too. It gets earlier every year! 😁 Sci-fi/Fantasy are huge umbrella terms (under the even larger Fiction label). To define Science Fiction or Fantasy Fiction so narrowly cuts out swathes of material. Cyberpunk, Post-Apocalyptic, Steampunk, Utopian, Dystopian, are all smaller branches of the Sci-fi family. And yes, Dark Fantasy is one too. This argument feels like saying that Homo Sapiens humans aren't apes, because apes primarily walk on all 4s, are covered with fur and don't use writing. There's nothing inherently different from other sci-fi branches aside from maybe the huge variety of authors and game designers who each give the setting a nudge. But even then, that's something it shares with Doctor Who. Grimdark/Dark Fantasy/Far Futurism. Whatever nuanced label you want to give it, 40k is definitely a fictional setting that uses science to provide a (n admittedly shaky, if not downright incorrect) explanation for the way the world works. 😉
Excellent video. Question, what if 40k did start doing some more sci fi novels? Would that open up new possibilities? Would that be a way to explore for example the eldar, who don't seem to work in the normal 40k framework?
I think Warhammer can be called all the things you've mentioned in this video, it could be military fiction with perhaps the guard or science fiction with the tau or dark fantasy with space marines depending on where you look and how it's written, however I do agree with you that Warhammer is seeing a lot of change recently which is why I personally prefer looking at older books and editions both 40k and fantasy because in older editions things weren't written in a very "sellable" way, idk what to call it but Warhammer now just feels too clean for me so I'll just stick with the old books, also beakie marines absolutely fuck and are better than primaris helmets 100% if you disagree you are wrong.
There is one genre that I'm surprised doesn't get brought up when people discuss what genre 40k is: post-apocalyptic. Tabling the unification wars, the entire galaxy is still struggling to recover from two cataclysms that brought the most powerful factions low: the dawn of the Age of Strife as well as the Fall of the Eldar. To put things in perspective as to the power and scientific advancement of humanity during the Dark Age of Technology, there was some old lore that Terminator armor was invented not for combat, but as mining equipment. The primarchs are basically the equivalent of the Sole Survivor, Courier, and Lone Wanderer from Fallout.
I disagree with your statements that something is only Sci-Fi if it deals with specific philosophical or psychological questions. A piece of literature is Sci-Fi if it is a fictional work about or featuring advanced futuristic scientific technology. It may often consider the themes you highlight, but this is not an essential component. As such, 40K definitely has strong Sci-Fi elements. I would also argue it does encompass a lot of the philosophical themes you say it doesn’t, such as the nature of humanity, the morality of overpowering weaponry, etc. But that is another discussion, as this is not an essential component of Sci-Fi anyway. The reason 40k is not pure Sci-Fi is not because of the moral themes is does or does not address. It’s because it includes so much non-scientific magic as a core element of its world building and story. This is definitely fantasy, not Sci-Fi, in nature. So it combines elements of Sci-Fi and elements of fantasy. It is also definitely dark - Grimdark even (To the extent that the horror genre needs an honourable mention too). So 40k is definitely not pure Sci-Fi, because of its very heavy fantasy component. But neither is it pure fantasy, because of its strong science and technology element. You cannot leave the “Sci” out of the definition. Dark Science Fantasy would be the appropriate genre classification imo.
What about the Rogue Traders, they follow alot of sci fi tropes like Star trek in exploring the galaxy and reaching out to untouched planets and systems. This is a genuine question as the rouge traders seem to follow alot of sci fi tropes. would like your imput
That’s a good point, they do! I do attest that 40k has a fair few sci-fi elements like Rogue traders but they tend to exist further on the periphery as an outlier and even then can be equated to travelling merchants and explorers that do turn up in dark fantasy
@@livefromtheblacklibrary interesting, the new rogue trader game has elements of space exploration and a star trek feel of trying to hit diplomacy and reconnecting civilizations
Man, I've known 40k was just dark fantasy in space since I heard about it and fell in love with it, (orks elves and space knights make it pretty clear,) but it wasn't until now that I understand that the reason I don't like the new stuff as much is because it is just starting to be sci fi and straying from it's fantasy roots, despite adding back in the Squats. I'd love to see a "why the leagues of Votan are a sci fi faction and not a dark fantasy faction, and why they don't work well in 40k" video, because I feel like their lore really is the most egregious shift in narritive style even more so than the Primaris. If GW made Votan and Eldar big rivals like dwarves and elves are in fantasy, I'd find it all far more compelling, and it would be a great opportunity for both to get some writing. As a dude that got into 40k around 2012ish with all my friends exposing me to 5th edition and the FFG RPGs, I way prefer the dark fantasy aspects to the more science fiction stuff of new. Hell, I'm still upset that the Guard is the "Astra Militarum" now and the introduction of Centurion Warsuits and the baby carriers of the Grey Knights nevermind the Primaris.
On a quick listing i would include Statwars as Sci-fi. But by discussing sci-fi Starwars would be my first name to erase because it has alway been fantasyin Storytelling even starting with the ferytale phrase:"a long time ago"
40k is what I like to term "Clarkepunk", named for Clarke's Third Law: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. As such, Clarkepunk tends to focus on science so advanced, mysterious or lost that it blurs the line. And of course, the "-punk" is pretty self-explanatory, usually indicative that the general spirit of the time tends to demonstrate cynicism and a general bad attitude. See also Star Wars (especially the OT), Doom, and a number of Final Fantasy entries, particularly VII and later. Even some superhero stories follow this template, like the MCU's Thor and Doctor Strange especially.
There absolutely are introspective themes regarding humanity in 40k. Discovery of new alien civilizations and how they differ from what we perceive as normal, etc. I mean come on, think of the Eisenhorn novels.
While I honestly love 40k, and it’s one of my favourite settings, in comparison to other sci-fi universes or even more in comparison to short stories set in Sci-fi genre, exploration of ideas and concepts in 40k is always on second plane. Most of books and stories set in the setting are quite shallow, and do not bring any ideas or philosophy behind them, they mostly add up more lore context, or they repeat gags, like if it was an anime. Angron is angry, Dark Eldars are evil, Necrons are arrogant, you can’t stop Tyranids etc. While ideas behind factions are fantastic and I love them, those ideas are static and dead. Because the setting doesn’t allow the viewer to ponder on those, as most interactions between those ideas are not possible do to in-setting reasons. Everyone kills each other, there are no inter-faction diplomacy and interactions, there is no way to „combo” the ideas behind certain things, to present interesting situations. Warhammer is really straining, in terms of creating stories in it, as due to lore reasons most possible interactions in the world are not possible, or they feel out of character. Therefore in the essence, 40k is badly thought out universe. It’s more like a SHRINE where you look with awe at different concepts, not a place where you actively ponder on them or see those ideas evolve in any way. The setting is dead on philosophical plane, it’s finished, and it doesn’t provide opportunities to further explore anything. In a way, how it acts IRL is almost the same as it acts in setting - the universe where there is only war and endless stagnation.
What we need is a way to use radioactive waste to produce energy. A way to get everything we can out of it and render it far more inert after the second power generation process. There's a lot LOT of energy in radioactive waste and I know there's gotta be a way we can use it to get even more power
We already have that. You can reprocess fuel. The French reprocess all their fuel. Generally it's cheaper to make new fuel rods from newly mined Uranium though.
If 30k something like a classical era, and 40k is something like the dark ages, then maybe what GW are working towards is a type of Renaissance in a new setting like 50k or even 60k. It’s not a perfect idea but it would be interesting to see explored.
40k doesn't mess around with time travel.... ehm what? Of course it does to a large extend with all warp-related phenomena, e.g. Lorgars "vision" of being in the gene lab on Tera seeing the primarchs as babies in their vats and many more of these examples.
i was gonna watch this vid, out of curiosity then i saw first couple of seconds. then i looked at the channel. its actually you man!!!! OMG thanks so much for the art!!!
This is the only video discussing 40k that ive found that actually references 40k literature. Ive been binge watching 40k material across different channels that specifically upload 40k "lore" essay and they tend to avoid referencing the literature. Which i find to be rather lazy and even deceptive.
12:24 this is the first time i've seen anyone bring this up in a video. Giant, threatening monoliths designed to carry a warning through eons is 40K af
I actually just started getting into 40K a year ago, and ironically the only books I’ve read are from the Horus Heresy 30k… I’ve heard that while the Heresy books are good, they don’t always represent well 40k, but personally I love them. I honestly feel like 40k isn’t just dark fantasy or sci-fi, but a melting pot of a lot of different genres.
There is a genre called sci-fi fantasy which Star Wars, Star Trek , WH40k and etc belongs. Sci-fi is more of the concept of futuristic realism. Meaning that certain technology is possible in our reality/future like warp drive or…. Ai.
Not sure if I necessarily agree: setting wins out in favour over themes for me, but do love the analysis, particularly the idea of chaos being the eldritch within as opposed to the eldritch without.
LOOOOOVE how you showed Shadows of the Empire!! I read that book in middle school! I would FREAK out if you did an episode on Dash Rendar and the Outrider…. Plus the scene where Leia hits the pheromone cloud…. Ummmm ya….
I just call it a science fantasy. However even in Star Trek there are alot of fantasy elements like the multiple races of beings that have god like powers and live forever.
I got into Warhammer 40k when they still had the really old plastic & Metal minis of the Cadians and also the Catachans and ultramarines...now i've stuck with the Recent cadian plastic models n stuff for 9th/10th edition and liking how they look, they look so much better. I would say Warhammer 40k is both fantasy and sci-fi in its own way?.
Heard a funny quote about the differences between Fantasy and Sci-Fi. Fantasy tells you the time and Sci-Fi tells you how the clock works. Dark Fantasy will tell you the time but only how many hours till sunset (and the bad stuff comes out) or sunrise (how long you have to survive). 40k will tell you the time but only after you have appeased the clock for a hour or more so that it gives you the correct time. Also they forgot how the clock works 10000 years ago.
I have a separate question if anyone can help me. If the Necrons are more advanced than humanity even at its peak, how is the imperium even competing with the Necrons if that one ship from the dark age of technology just played around with space marines like they are nothing?
Continuing your discussion about tech heresy and machines spirit another point is that we don't know what the hell machine spirits actually are with what little we have being inconsistent with one another ranging from being dumb and/or lobotomised DAOT AIs, AIs that use either crystals or brains as mainframe to even a literal ghost in the machine situation where the soul is either made as if it was a motherboard or literally someone's soul shoved in the machine and chances are it's possible that all of them are right since even the admech codex mentions how they're soo schizo tech that a skitarii could have quantum biowares for brain and a leather sack for lungs and the leagues of votann along with several warp based archeotech artifacts reveal that DAOT humanity had a massive understanding of the warp
warhammer is NOT dark fantasy. If I told my friend, "hey come over to my house we are going to play a dark fantasy game". When he shows up and we play 40k, he is going to say "oh I thought we were playing a fantasy game." kinda like how if I offered to make you a sandwitch and gave you a hot dog you would be like "this is a hot dog"
Your bigger and better paladins example sorta falls flat with the obvious context of. Bigger better paladins with new sharper swords gifted to the holy empire of man by the hands of the Son of God the current messiah to wage holy war against the ever growing Daemonic hordes. Edit: But yeah, I feel like the problem is the *need* to prescribe a puritan genre when I feel what sets Warhammer so we'll apart is that it blends genres really well. Great video tho. I do agree! With your point.
Yeah but I’m that example the vibe feels more consistent as opposed to the new knights being focused only on better sword fighting. Your example would fit more if the Primaris were all zealous psykers Thanks thank you a bunch!
@@livefromtheblacklibrary oh yeah no problem. I will say the rubicon primaris Our already paladin brothers essentially being Blessed into the better paladins is another way to look at it.
What's great about 40k, is that, there is only so much set in stone, and it is wide open for millions of other options, . If you blend older 40k with newer 40k you can make almost any genre work, of course born from dark fantasy, you can make a crime, mystery, thriller, intrigue , etc story.. they are all gilded by the greater narrative of decay, violence and fates worse than death. I would say newer 40k lends itself it making its audience more creative... but ... when things get too good out here in fan land... the great empire attacks.
What if we could communicate and travel FTL without using the warp by using ancient alien tech? Let's go on a dangerous adventure into a mountain fortress and steal the tech while freeing a god shard and killing a hive mind leader! Belasarius Cawl: The great work
I think the primaris marines could have been just the thunder warriors instead just being better space marines. Whiles the adeptus astartes are super soldiers, they don't really feel like super soldiers. Hell most of the chapters don't feel like soldiers except the ultra marines, imperial fist and the raven guard. The thunder warriors can be reworked in the 41st/ 42nd millennium as part of the Astra militarum. Super soldiers that were around during the unification wars on Terra making a 2nd come back. That's a moral booster right there. Also an adult can turn themselves into a thunder warrior which can motivate civilians to become part of the imperial guard or the pdf. I mean who wouldn't want to be a super soldier serving the glorious God emperor, the master of mankind, savior of humanity. It can even add some plausible conflict with space marines and the abhumans because they are kind of in between them. The thunder warriors had flaws such as organ failure or mental degradation resulting in them becoming lunatics. Not everyone became a madman but the big E did want then dead after the unification and the custodes killed them and replaced them with the space marines that we love. In order to bring them back however, the xenos treats will have to be more serious. Ghazkull has a big waaagghhh, the nids are eating everything faster etc. The thunder warriors can be introduced the same way the primaris did and the guard is impressed. So they have some in their ranks.
I started to get interested into 40k by the time the Exodite animations and the Leagues of Votann were announced as an April's fools joke. I do like how anachronistic everything is. The intermixing of Dark Fantasy and sci Fi is fascinating. And to be fair, they should stick to the rules of none and keep it as a clash of superstition and technology. And if you think about that, that is kinda humane on some way.
Wouldn't you call it science-fantasy just like star wars.
I only found that term right as I was finishing this video 🥲 also I feel like the term Science-Fantasy is more inline with regular fantasy (like Star Wars) as opposed to the unique and specific themes of dark fantasy (aside from just being dark) and the term “dark science-fantasy” just sounds a bit lame XD
@@livefromtheblacklibrary yeah you can only add so many adjectives before it becomes ridiculous and the dark dystopian hopelessness of the setting needs ro be prominent in its description.
No not really. Considering fantasy and fiction are functionally synonyms. And fantasy has a connotation of being set in the past.
I would stick with Science fiction.
And this guy is wrong. It's not a "space opera".
It's Sci-fi epic tragedy.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary More like Science Fantasy but for late 80s/90s era edgelords lol
Hence why Warhammer 40K (and HH) as settings are mostly concentrated in a single milky way galaxy
@@jamesespinosa690 dude stfu, Fantasy means anything based on magic. Even D&D has Space adventures with star craft. The Warp can be considered "magical" along with The Force, hence the term "Space-Fantasy" applies.
I mean 40k can and is a lot of things
-fantasy in space (eldar and orks)
-cosmic horror (chaos, tyranids and maybe necrons)
-story of knights and paladins (space marines and imperial knights)
-not even gonna try categorising the drukarii and harleyquins
-generic sci-fi (tau)
-mad max punk (necromunda)
-mythology (the primarchs)
etc.
it's what makes it great, that every stile and genre can be represented
Let's not forget what slaneesh brings to the table
😈👅🦴
😄
Why are tyranids under cosmic horror, they obviously represent the culinary arts
You forgot comedy: Ciaphas Cain and the trazyn book lol
Youve also got a bunch of stuff covered with the guard: ww1 and ww2 aesthetics, 80’s action movies/Vietnam, historical colonial themed troops etc
Can’t think of another universe that essentially has paladin knights and mages, the squad from predator, vehicles from mad max, xenomorphs, gundams and hellraiser all in one franchise 😂
You forget also the Detective story with Esienhorn
It's science fantasy. However, I don't agree entirely with the conclusion it doesn't have significant sci-fi themes; for example, the Primarchs and the Heresy explore themes of transhumanism, hierarchies based on strength, and human nature as ultimately fallibility and corruptible. The setting generally looks at religious fanaticism, state control, the value of human life, and nihilism on the context of overwhelming adversity.
Hmmmm interesting point
Yeah, I fully agree with you. One look at the Mechanicus, the Necrons, the Tau or the Leagues of Votann immediately throw away the notion there's not enough Sci-Fi in 40k. Even their magic system is based on in universe science.
It's fantasy with hints of sci fi
The Dark Age of Technology was sci-fi, 40k is post-sci-fi.
They basically went full circle lol
(GONE WRONG) (GONE SEXUAL)
And the new stuff is edging slowly back into sci-fi
Exactly what I was thinking well said
mayne ah yes. exactly what I similarly thought when it comes to here.
at least on your mention about WH40K [Grape]'s and galaxy's GA and DA-Humanity.
For me, I got into 40k late 2019, during the Era indomitus, so I love the primarchs returning, and have no issue with the primaris. I think the only issues come from the new base clashing with the old. I know people still apparently hate the primarchs returning or even the overall story advancing. Apparently some much older fans even hate the heresy being fleshed out because they preferred the idea of it being a lost myth. I believe every opinion is valid, and it's important everyone can enjoy the hobby equally, and don't try to gate keep it from new fans
Also I thought it was common knowledge 40k was science fantasy like star wars, but once again I'm a newer fan so older fans may not seen it that way
Yeah I get you, that’s why despite my opinions I try to never be like bitter
@@livefromtheblacklibrary hope ya didn't take the comments in a negative way. Loved this video and have been enjoying the others. Keep up the great work. Hopefully you'll be the next pancreas no work and go from 10k Subs to 100k in like a year
Haha very lucky, when I heard of primaris, I felt like… huh?! Because it was a sudden revelation in new lore.I’m old school space marines but I soon learn to like primaries too.
I got into it a few years before Primaris were a thing. I wouldn't have minded it if their entire launch and justification both in and out of universe wasn't completely botched. I don't think anyone would have really cared all that much today if GW said the models were bigger to make them easier to paint, while not changing their height in universe and Cawl only making the armor and vehicles. Instead GW published the Gathering Storm, which while not a bad concept was terribly rushed and executed.
I like Primaris these days, units like Blade Guard and the release of transfer kits to customise your models added much needed variety to their model line, but lauch Primaris were terrible and we're still feeling the effects to this day. All because GW wanted their cake right now and got food poisoning.
TL;DR Corporate greed is bad and gives us terrible books and models.
I always took 40k, now at least, as Cosmic horror in a sci-fi setting. Multiple elements within the system pushing further and further in, delayed but never stopped, until the eventual destruction of all things including itself.
Excellent video Chrono!
Interesting viewpoint! And thank you!
This is exactly how I see 40k a race to the end
Not cosmic horror, the most important aspect of cosmic horror is the insignificance of humanity
I see the Warhammer 40K setting as a combination of lovecraftian horror, splatterpunk, cyberpunk, steampunk, medieval fanaticism, military sf, mythology, dark fantasy, dark parody, bloody insanity and grim dystopian darkness. The Emperor Protects!
So basically everything then
Yeah, that's sci fi, overall.
I mean 40k is basically the definition of sci-fantasy, much like Star Wars
Would you believe me if I told you I only came across that term while finishing this video 🥲
Even more than Star Wars I would say.
Wouldn't 40k be more sci-fi leaning than SW though?
WH40K asks: What if humanity had to conquer and endure in "the Dark Forrest" as per the popular hypothesis concerned with the socialization of interstellar civilizations.
At least in my opinion, just with stuff added that sells the product and is snatched from every space-opera since the early days of sci-fi.
There's actually a lot of time travel in 40k but it's a bit more unique than other verses. Luetin has a huge video going into it. The short of it, the warp "can" act as a imprecise conduit for time travel.
I agree with the Dark Fantasy idea, Look at all the older art done for 40k, I have been a WH40k fan since the early 90's, and I love it for the over the top insanely dark nature.
AS for where it is going, I tend to think it has been watered down and moving away from the everyone is the bad guy idea. and I would not be surprised that power swords and chain swords start to fade away. But this is better for bringing in newer people, the older stuff would make some shy away because it is too dark. and GW wants more people to buy their models. Just look at the box art of the older boxes, and the first Rogue Trader book, now look at the newer art on boxes, much tamer. and it helps bring in newer and younger customers.
That's really interesting to me as I remember getting my first 40k set in the early/mid 90s too. (My Ork Dreadnought was the best painted item in the set! 😁 😂)
But I feel that GW has leaned into the "We're so dark" trope as time's gone on. Early 40k was much more tongue in cheek, from names to powers and even stories. There was a playfulness that I think the huge size of modern GW has swallowed whole. We still see a glimpse of it every now and again though. 😉
Isn't it funny how people have different perceptions? 😁
I mean hey, look at the new Chaos Space Marine, World Eater, or Militarum codex art... They're really not brightening the setting up, it's just as metal as the old stuff. As for swords and such... Look at the Black Templar range. I think GW knows what makes 40k 40k and they won't get rid of it. Even the "noblebright" Votann are pretty friggin scary when it's your planet they find.
I feel like, thanks to the creation of the Circatrix Maledictum, you could see a sort of "Schismatic Imperium" much like what happened with Rome. Under the half directly under the control of Guilliman, you would see some progress and advancement, while the other half would become more dogmatic and oppressive. This would allow for a variety of narrative themes when weaving stories and greater story arcs.
Considering the changes to the definition of the sci-fi genre and how much cross over there used to be with fantasy in the genre ( John Carter of Mars and the like were considered sci-fi once), 40k and Star Wars could no doubt be considered sci-fi under an earlier paradigm
Well 40k is sci fi, half of this video is made of lies to artificially create a point.
Sci-fantasy is sci-fi anyway, fantasy is by definition a fiction, so any sci-fantasy is by definition sci-fiction....
I mean, I understand the guy has to make videos to pay the rent but... I don't know, please don't lie to my face for that ?
The issue with the assessment is that much of 40k has many aspects of the setting that are scifi
- if humanities reliance on technology but inability to innovate would lead them
- when does augmentation make you less human or can you still be “human”
And although the setting contains fantasy races, 40k is more overt with it. Mass effect Star trek and halo have their strong barbarian warrior races and sleek aloof elegant races. Only difference is 40k just uses “elves, and orks”
And sci-fi has its gods it’s only difference often is they are wrapped in a Dawkins kind of “they are gods to us but they are just hyper evolved beings or we are in a simulations” ultimately though they are more like pagan dirties then an abrahamic concept of a god.
40k is definitely more easily able to tap into those archetypes of myths and legends but i think that speaks more to it’s timelessness
So overall there is still a lot that can make 40k sci-fi
Good points! I did consider all that but it felt to me like those questions are mostly made by the reader after the fact as opposed to directly asked by the narrative/author itself. Furthermore the way things like the different races and God are portrayed and they way they interact with each other just feels much closer to dark fantasy for me than the way sci-fi deals with them
@@livefromtheblacklibrary that is true, however I think it’s a mixture of the two. Most stories don’t necessarily raise the questions mostly because they are existing within the setting rather then most works that are often stand alone or part of an overarching series with a conclusion to its thesis.
Much of the Star Trek, alien, and battletech novels are like this.
I’d also agree that the races act this way by nature of their cultures. And if someone prescribes to a more cyclical view of history then character behavior being more anachronistic outside of aesthetic makes sense from that view
I prefer the term “speculative fiction” for Science Fiction, as the best science fiction addresses those “what if” questions you’re talking about. You’re right on the money that 40k is dark fantasy, though I would qualify that as “dark fantasy with sci-fi tendencies” as some recent works did start to address issues like transhumanism.
It's been hard for me to tell the difference in the past so thank you for this post
40K is a satirical dark fantasy disguised as nihilistic space opera.
I’m kind of take or leave on the new novels (Dawn of Fire), but I’ve enjoyed the lore stuff in the first two Arks of Omen books. What I hope never goes away entirely is the fact that in 40K everyone is an unreliable narrator.
Yeah, was a satire ages ago, but hasn't been one for decades.
0:12 the Guardian is something you would use to wipe your backside.
You covered it with that exert from The Death Of Integrity but I was going to say that 40K feels of course like dark fantasy but also like its set in a post sci fi universe with the Gold age of Tech and STC's being that Sci Fi stage of the setting
"To quote..."
*Baldermort intensifies*
40k has always been a kitchen-sink setting, where you can throw a little bit of everything in and it works. It isn't usually scifi, but it stole scifi pieces. It isn't usually military fiction, but imperial guard books often are, and the flavor is present throughout. It isn't usually cosmic horror, but it's always lurking in the corners. I do think dark fantasy is the largest "donor," though and in glad this video shows that off, since I didn't fully clock that before.
I would hesitate to group Dune with the speculative fiction type sci fis like star trek or interstellar or what have you, as it cast off a lot of what made sci fi sci fi in favour of transhumanism, prophesies, mysticism, feudalism, etc. It's no secret that other than Warhammer Fantasy the biggest influence on 40k was Dune, so I think it should definitely be grouped with 40k in a kind of "post collapse socially and scientifically regressed space opera" genre
I lump dune in more so due to its psychedelic nature and philosophy in regards to human nature
40k isn't one thing. Neither is 'sci-fi' or ' dark fantasy' or anything else for that matter. Genres are made to be used, expanded upon and remixed ad infinitum, not followed like scripture. Most narratives borrow and blend elements from a myriad of story-telling traditions.
I personally don't think we should get too caught up in discussing whether a piece of fiction matches X or Y genre the most -- because that's not the point of these imaginative worlds.
40k is a pretty direct homage to Dune, basically "What-if Dune but more stupid and cruel + Orks and Elves models we've got laying around from fantasy" focused through the aesthetics lenses of 80's British sci-fi Punk that was pioneered by the likes of 2000ad. The direct parallels with Dune: Mentats-Servitors, Navigators - Navigators, Bene Gesserit-Psykers (Bene Gesserit are insulted as witches for their powers), space marines-saradakaur, and the emperor to Leto the 2. hell the intro to 40k is a homage to the opening of Dune in construction.
Its not science fiction, its the most accurate future
Good point regarding the darkness of a setting would determine how 'free' people are to become whatever they want. Freedom to be a space marine implies a hopeful, brighter setting, and that is NOT what 40K is.
Exactly! And yet it’s never painted as a bad thing but as a grim necessity
I like Primaris but i do agree the more recent addons are making them kinda silly. From what i understood of the lore coming in through Gathering Storm, the Primaris Project was simply made to make the space marine last a wee bit longer than a normal marine. I was expecting they would use the same wargear moving forward but having them adopt Replaceable Parts/Modular Components and absolutely new gear is kinda pushing the genre into a different direction.
Look the Phobos, Tacticus, and Gravis armor are all the same. You can simply slap 2 other layers of armor on top of the phobos and make it Gravis. Gone are the days when some really talented artisan would craft a custom-made armor that speaks the identity of the character. Funny I got the Star Wars Ep 2 vibe of the Republic non-chalantly invading Geonosis and bamboozling the CIS with what appears to be an Instant Army. XXD
science fiction, abbreviation SF or sci-fi, a form of fiction that deals principally with the impact of actual or imagined science upon society or individuals.
I feel like you're creating boxes where no boxes are necessary.
At most you can say it's a subgenre of sci-fi, but it's still caught in the massive umbrella that is science fiction.
Great treatise. You are very incisive. As far as I can tell, 40K is a medieval fantasy tale through and through. A legendary king, loyal knights, traitor knights, a kingdom in constant danger, and barbaric invaders (chaos forces, tyranids etc.) hellbent on destroying it.
The knights just have rocket grenade machine cannons in addition to the swords and shields
As a new Warhammer 40K fan, I honestly like the new direction the setting is taking with the Era Indomitus. As for the Primaris, I really like their new tech, such as the Inceptors, and the grav-tanks such as the Astrateus.
Totally fair!
As an old fan, I really hate a lot of the models, vehicles in particular. They look like they're from the wrong setting. Alfabusa's inq28 video describes it better than I can, but they just feel wrong when compared to everything that came before. They look way too new, a few chapter specific plastic transfers and a dirtier more utilitarian deisgn would have made them fit way better with the existing designs. See Bladeguard or Primaris Black Templar for what I mean.
I do really like the Primaris stuff (most of it.) But I do wish they would get a few more purity seals and servitors.
Counter point, the imperium is full of sci fi and it is the biggest faction in 40k. Things can be sci fi and also be orher things
Good video. And you put into words why female space marines lore wise don’t feel right to me or male soroitas. Yet I’d be overjoyed to see some conversions on the tabletop.
Yeah! Tabletop and lore are two totally different ballparks so I say have fun!
Totally agree sir.
Tabletop already makes 0 sence lore wise so female space marines would be totally cool on it imo.
@@CoffeeMaus
@@jc7997aj What is even that reply? You're projecting so hard I could give the class a precentation.
i always seen 40k as a "fantasy/SCI-FI kitchen sink" (or science-fantasy) kind of universe, taking everything both genre represent at their core. As you allready pointed out, gods and magic are just as real as the manufactured bolter rounds in a space marine's gun. And you have the medieval gothic ways of existing and enforced both by the Imperium of man, aswell as the chaos god and the warp. They clearly lean more heavily towards the fantasy aspect of the universe.
Where factions such as the Necrons, Tau and now leagues of Votann repesent more the SCI-FI aspect of 40k. With Necrons having the same tropes and elements of the "precursor race" of the settings, mixed with the fear and genre of terminators "robot uprising/reawakening of doomsday machines" sci-fi trope. Who's main strength is their unmatched understanding of the physicals sciences and technology.
The TAU represent the most sci-fi trope of all, with a race who have almost zero connection to the warp, use of technology and the Idea of a "new galactic race looking to interreact with the wider universe", like how sci-fi books with of simuler theme with "humanities first expanse into the universe, and possible encountering of alien races".
And the leagues of Votann, representing as a small hermit nation state seeking to cut a piece of the galaxy in their name for wealth and profit. Kinda like how a giant corporation seeks control for their own interests (gives me deep rock galactic vibes)
oh, i also guess the Tyranids, the SCI-FI trope of the all devouring swarm, straight out of "Alien", "Starship troopers" and "Ender's game".
Still a very good video, and it rases many interesting viewpoints in how people view the 40k universe.
(always I apologize for inappropriate english, its not my native tongue.)
Great video, thanks for diving into this. I agree with your points and can see what you mean about why stories post Gathering Storm don't have the same feel as previous stories.
Sci-Fi explores what is possible... and 40k explores the possibility that something like the Imperium of man is all humanity can be.
Grimdark Sci-Fi is EXACLTY what it is just like Black Mirror, or the Twilight Zone. Sci-fi doesn't need to be uplifting, and you seem to think that is mandatory.
This is a great watch. I've been writing my own science fantasy setting for the past few years, and hopefully I can publish some books or turn it into video games eventually. It's also based on a "medieval" sort of styling of the future, a la 40k or Destiny, but more heavily coded in Arthurian myth, at least for the main human faction. Yet the overall outlook is different. My setting is not Dark Fantasy or grimdark, but it's not absolutely noble either. It's more along the lines of High Fantasy in space, to reinforce the mythic, heroic feel of some aspects, with some grimdark elements thrown in occasionally to not have the setting come off as too cliché.
Whoa that sounds super cool!!!
@@livefromtheblacklibrary Thanks! I'm headed off to college soon, to focus on creative writing for this very reason.
I'd love to hear a synopsis. Let's say make me wanna read the series in 50 words or less.
@@jc7997aj Although it's pretty hard to summarize it that quick given how much background I've written down, the at-its-core setting synopsis in 50 words could go something like this:
"In the distant Forge galaxy, a doomsday clock looms, promising godlike power to the species who reigns champion, and doom to all others. The many factions are bound by cosmic law, unable to leave the galaxy once inside. Some fight for glory, some for profit, and some for twisted justice."
@@josephzemanek3953 I dig it. Now you gotta decide what it is. Is it a game that has lore. Is it book series that then gets developed into a game, graphic novel or live action. You got time and many edits to go but you need to know what course that ship is sailing.
It also feels different because its main source of inspiration is the works of British sci fi/fantasy author Michael Moorcock, if 40k is beef stew his works are the beef.
EXACTLY! One of these days I wanna make a video outlining everything Warhammer got from Elric/Moorcock (prefacing that I do love both)
@@livefromtheblacklibrary Hawkmoon is probably the series it pulls from the most , the Imperium is totally the Dark Empire of Granbretan in spaaaaace
It's science fantasy with a lot of diesel punk
Before the new stuff with indomitus, I saw 40k as an ethnographic deep dive into a possible future for man kind amongst the stars, prompting one to consider very human themes of what people experience within these historical and technological perimeters. it gives me similar vibes to books like Man after man where a narrative history is retroactively ascribed to a highly emotive aesthetic to justify it. I think like man after man however, despite the two being so different in content, I believe they both give me the same vibe because there's an intense focus on the human condition as we experience it but pushed the absolute limit.
A good term to describe this might be like 'Fictional realism' or 'pseudo history' perhaps?
Very interesting perspective dude! Hadn’t really considered it that way 🤔
I once read that 40k was a fanstey, dressed in Sci-fi drag
MORE OR LESS LOL
Warhammer 40,000 is Science Fantasy as opposed to Hard Sci Fi. The most extreme end is 'Engineer Porn'.
40K is Sci Fi. Jyst a certain type of Sci Fi.
I have my criticisms of new 40k, but there are plenty of things about it I like. I like the feelings of hurt and betrayal among the first born space marines towards the primaris that could potentially lead to intrachapter civil wars that could further weaken the chapters and make it harder for the Imperium to fend off chaos and xenos incursions. I like the almost cold war between Guilleman and the Ecclesiarchy that, if given just the right push by chaos or xenos, could lead to an Imperium-wide civil war that would send the Imperium multiple leaping hurdles to collapsing. I even like the more sway to nobledark over grimdark as the former is more appealing to newcomers to the hobby and lore, and in order for 40k to survive, it needs new blood coming in to the hobby and lore.
Introducing nobledark into 40k wouldn't change much. The Imperium can still be a stagnating, crumbling, mortally wounded beast that refuses to give up and continues to push back with violence, and is plagued by nightmare bureaucracy and corrupt leaders. Nobledark can mean that though everything is still black and bleak, the stars still burn bright...for now.
Where is the Story of the Time Traveling ship? I have heard about that several times but have yet to find it.
It’s called Death of Integrity by Guy Haley!
@@livefromtheblacklibrary Thank you! I have found copies in paperback and E-Book. I always thought it was a short story in an Anthology.
Yeah same! I think the scene is like the very end though, everything before that is fighting Tyranids
The second you said 'it wasn't' I knew EXAXTLY what you were going to do.
I couldn’t resist XD
@@livefromtheblacklibrary Michael is a treasure.
You really answered so many questions we never had. But now I wish I had these questions. Thanks!
"40k tells a very clear story" 3:53
For me it's not a Fantasy and Rick Parry never made it to be. It WAS (according to Rick Parry himself) meant to be a Scifi setting. The bit people miss is that from the 3rd Ed is that it was starting to be written with a Horror genre in a Scifi setting in the Lore. When I started in 2nd Ed is was a small skirmish game that GW wanted to expand to larger battles due to the popularity so expanded and adapted the lore and background
it's not military strategy? Bro, tabletop is literally military strategy xD
I dont know if anyones mentioned it, but i love your baldemort. Im so glad i found your channel. You're awesome and keep up the great work
I honestly have to disagree. The hours heresy and 40k I read usually debate the nature of faith and human purpose. Which it shares with Dune though obviously not to the same extent. Good video though
Nice vid, eye opening. This reminded me of those 40k AI Art videos that kept using dark fantasy on the title.
It makes a lot of sense, I guess i just never really tough about what genre it is.
Yeah true! Those videos are more accurate than we think LOL
You might be onto to something there when you call it a dark fantasy, because let's be real here; wh40k is basically a sci-fi version of a heavy metal album, don't believe me? Put a chaos marine on the front cover and ask a friend if he or she would like to listen to this awesome new metal genre called grim-dark.
It is both. Being fantasy doesn't exclude it being science fiction.
Another example of this, and a series that could fit right in with the 40k universe, is a series of novels called The Coldfire Trilogy. By CS Friedman.
It is clearly a dark fantasy. With magic called Fae.
However if follows the descendants of Earth after they are stranded on a world that responds to their thoughts and fears.
Though learn physics and engineering, technology is limited due to the interactions of By Fae and humanity and probability.
"To quote" aaaah, nice reference to Baldemort, our faithful servant.
Also nice imitation
Thanks XD
Would love starwars legend content especially cross over comparisons
Yeah! I really want to get to a comparison to how Star Wars portrays the galaxy and galactic history in comparison to Warhammer
@@livefromtheblacklibrary vs videos would be cool or fanfiction cross over what ifs aswell just few ideas.
40K is Sci-fi. It’s also Dark Fantasy. It’s also often romance, drama, comedy, satire. Genres aren’t exclusive.
yup
Today in "I don't understand what words and definitions mean", here are multiple definitions to remove the absolute defined incorrectness in this video:
"Science fiction consists of stories in books, magazines, and films about events that take place in the future or in other parts of the universe."
"a literary genre that makes imaginative use of scientific knowledge or conjecture"
Collins
"fiction of a highly imaginative or fantastic kind, typically involving some actual or projected scientific phenomenon"
Websters
"a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc"
Harper Collins
Dictionary definitions represent the human consensus of the meaning of the word.
100% of the above fit 40k, no matter what you say.
I think you are mixing sub genres or approaches as actual genres. "Dark fantasy" can be a part of sci fi. Literally "..of a fantastic kind". It's BY definition in there.
Fuggin nailed the baldermort vibe with the "end qoute" nice! Made me smile
Ah, the first discussion of the differences between sci-fi/fantasy. And before I've seen the daffodils too. It gets earlier every year! 😁
Sci-fi/Fantasy are huge umbrella terms (under the even larger Fiction label). To define Science Fiction or Fantasy Fiction so narrowly cuts out swathes of material. Cyberpunk, Post-Apocalyptic, Steampunk, Utopian, Dystopian, are all smaller branches of the Sci-fi family. And yes, Dark Fantasy is one too.
This argument feels like saying that Homo Sapiens humans aren't apes, because apes primarily walk on all 4s, are covered with fur and don't use writing. There's nothing inherently different from other sci-fi branches aside from maybe the huge variety of authors and game designers who each give the setting a nudge. But even then, that's something it shares with Doctor Who.
Grimdark/Dark Fantasy/Far Futurism. Whatever nuanced label you want to give it, 40k is definitely a fictional setting that uses science to provide a (n admittedly shaky, if not downright incorrect) explanation for the way the world works. 😉
Excellent video. Question, what if 40k did start doing some more sci fi novels? Would that open up new possibilities? Would that be a way to explore for example the eldar, who don't seem to work in the normal 40k framework?
I think Warhammer can be called all the things you've mentioned in this video, it could be military fiction with perhaps the guard or science fiction with the tau or dark fantasy with space marines depending on where you look and how it's written, however I do agree with you that Warhammer is seeing a lot of change recently which is why I personally prefer looking at older books and editions both 40k and fantasy because in older editions things weren't written in a very "sellable" way, idk what to call it but Warhammer now just feels too clean for me so I'll just stick with the old books, also beakie marines absolutely fuck and are better than primaris helmets 100% if you disagree you are wrong.
There is one genre that I'm surprised doesn't get brought up when people discuss what genre 40k is: post-apocalyptic. Tabling the unification wars, the entire galaxy is still struggling to recover from two cataclysms that brought the most powerful factions low: the dawn of the Age of Strife as well as the Fall of the Eldar. To put things in perspective as to the power and scientific advancement of humanity during the Dark Age of Technology, there was some old lore that Terminator armor was invented not for combat, but as mining equipment. The primarchs are basically the equivalent of the Sole Survivor, Courier, and Lone Wanderer from Fallout.
It’s totally Sci-Fi!
But hey I love the brand so if someone wants to tweak the nuance of what sci-fi is to make a video go for it.
I disagree with your statements that something is only Sci-Fi if it deals with specific philosophical or psychological questions. A piece of literature is Sci-Fi if it is a fictional work about or featuring advanced futuristic scientific technology. It may often consider the themes you highlight, but this is not an essential component. As such, 40K definitely has strong Sci-Fi elements. I would also argue it does encompass a lot of the philosophical themes you say it doesn’t, such as the nature of humanity, the morality of overpowering weaponry, etc. But that is another discussion, as this is not an essential component of Sci-Fi anyway.
The reason 40k is not pure Sci-Fi is not because of the moral themes is does or does not address. It’s because it includes so much non-scientific magic as a core element of its world building and story. This is definitely fantasy, not Sci-Fi, in nature. So it combines elements of Sci-Fi and elements of fantasy. It is also definitely dark - Grimdark even (To the extent that the horror genre needs an honourable mention too).
So 40k is definitely not pure Sci-Fi, because of its very heavy fantasy component. But neither is it pure fantasy, because of its strong science and technology element. You cannot leave the “Sci” out of the definition.
Dark Science Fantasy would be the appropriate genre classification imo.
What about the Rogue Traders, they follow alot of sci fi tropes like Star trek in exploring the galaxy and reaching out to untouched planets and systems. This is a genuine question as the rouge traders seem to follow alot of sci fi tropes. would like your imput
That’s a good point, they do! I do attest that 40k has a fair few sci-fi elements like Rogue traders but they tend to exist further on the periphery as an outlier and even then can be equated to travelling merchants and explorers that do turn up in dark fantasy
@@livefromtheblacklibrary interesting, the new rogue trader game has elements of space exploration and a star trek feel of trying to hit diplomacy and reconnecting civilizations
Man, I've known 40k was just dark fantasy in space since I heard about it and fell in love with it, (orks elves and space knights make it pretty clear,) but it wasn't until now that I understand that the reason I don't like the new stuff as much is because it is just starting to be sci fi and straying from it's fantasy roots, despite adding back in the Squats. I'd love to see a "why the leagues of Votan are a sci fi faction and not a dark fantasy faction, and why they don't work well in 40k" video, because I feel like their lore really is the most egregious shift in narritive style even more so than the Primaris. If GW made Votan and Eldar big rivals like dwarves and elves are in fantasy, I'd find it all far more compelling, and it would be a great opportunity for both to get some writing.
As a dude that got into 40k around 2012ish with all my friends exposing me to 5th edition and the FFG RPGs, I way prefer the dark fantasy aspects to the more science fiction stuff of new. Hell, I'm still upset that the Guard is the "Astra Militarum" now and the introduction of Centurion Warsuits and the baby carriers of the Grey Knights nevermind the Primaris.
First thing that came to my mind back in the 80s with 40k was WIZARDS by Ralph Bakshi
On a quick listing i would include Statwars as Sci-fi.
But by discussing sci-fi Starwars would be my first name to erase because it has alway been fantasyin Storytelling even starting with the ferytale phrase:"a long time ago"
was already going to sub for the video quality, the “quote… end quote” but just guaranteed it
40k is what I like to term "Clarkepunk", named for Clarke's Third Law: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. As such, Clarkepunk tends to focus on science so advanced, mysterious or lost that it blurs the line. And of course, the "-punk" is pretty self-explanatory, usually indicative that the general spirit of the time tends to demonstrate cynicism and a general bad attitude. See also Star Wars (especially the OT), Doom, and a number of Final Fantasy entries, particularly VII and later. Even some superhero stories follow this template, like the MCU's Thor and Doctor Strange especially.
There absolutely are introspective themes regarding humanity in 40k. Discovery of new alien civilizations and how they differ from what we perceive as normal, etc. I mean come on, think of the Eisenhorn novels.
While I honestly love 40k, and it’s one of my favourite settings, in comparison to other sci-fi universes or even more in comparison to short stories set in Sci-fi genre, exploration of ideas and concepts in 40k is always on second plane. Most of books and stories set in the setting are quite shallow, and do not bring any ideas or philosophy behind them, they mostly add up more lore context, or they repeat gags, like if it was an anime. Angron is angry, Dark Eldars are evil, Necrons are arrogant, you can’t stop Tyranids etc.
While ideas behind factions are fantastic and I love them, those ideas are static and dead. Because the setting doesn’t allow the viewer to ponder on those, as most interactions between those ideas are not possible do to in-setting reasons. Everyone kills each other, there are no inter-faction diplomacy and interactions, there is no way to „combo” the ideas behind certain things, to present interesting situations. Warhammer is really straining, in terms of creating stories in it, as due to lore reasons most possible interactions in the world are not possible, or they feel out of character.
Therefore in the essence, 40k is badly thought out universe. It’s more like a SHRINE where you look with awe at different concepts, not a place where you actively ponder on them or see those ideas evolve in any way. The setting is dead on philosophical plane, it’s finished, and it doesn’t provide opportunities to further explore anything. In a way, how it acts IRL is almost the same as it acts in setting - the universe where there is only war and endless stagnation.
What we need is a way to use radioactive waste to produce energy. A way to get everything we can out of it and render it far more inert after the second power generation process.
There's a lot LOT of energy in radioactive waste and I know there's gotta be a way we can use it to get even more power
We already have that. You can reprocess fuel. The French reprocess all their fuel. Generally it's cheaper to make new fuel rods from newly mined Uranium though.
I'm sorry but Fabius Bile is a scientist (among other things) and the science he does is fiction soooo......joking aside nice vid got my sub.
Damn, ya got me 😔 LOL THANKS BTW
If 30k something like a classical era, and 40k is something like the dark ages, then maybe what GW are working towards is a type of Renaissance in a new setting like 50k or even 60k. It’s not a perfect idea but it would be interesting to see explored.
40k doesn't mess around with time travel.... ehm what? Of course it does to a large extend with all warp-related phenomena, e.g. Lorgars "vision" of being in the gene lab on Tera seeing the primarchs as babies in their vats and many more of these examples.
Those feel more like fantasy visions imo
i was gonna watch this vid, out of curiosity then i saw first couple of seconds. then i looked at the channel. its actually you man!!!! OMG thanks so much for the art!!!
AYYYYYYY GOOD TO SEE YOU MAN!
@@livefromtheblacklibrary AYYYYYYYY BRUDA
This is the only video discussing 40k that ive found that actually references 40k literature. Ive been binge watching 40k material across different channels that specifically upload 40k "lore" essay and they tend to avoid referencing the literature. Which i find to be rather lazy and even deceptive.
12:24 this is the first time i've seen anyone bring this up in a video. Giant, threatening monoliths designed to carry a warning through eons is 40K af
I actually just started getting into 40K a year ago, and ironically the only books I’ve read are from the Horus Heresy 30k… I’ve heard that while the Heresy books are good, they don’t always represent well 40k, but personally I love them. I honestly feel like 40k isn’t just dark fantasy or sci-fi, but a melting pot of a lot of different genres.
One thing I love about 40k is that many series can fit into 40k
Hellraiser, event horizon, berserk, etc.
There is a genre called sci-fi fantasy which Star Wars, Star Trek , WH40k and etc belongs. Sci-fi is more of the concept of futuristic realism. Meaning that certain technology is possible in our reality/future like warp drive or…. Ai.
Not sure if I necessarily agree: setting wins out in favour over themes for me, but do love the analysis, particularly the idea of chaos being the eldritch within as opposed to the eldritch without.
LOOOOOVE how you showed Shadows of the Empire!! I read that book in middle school! I would FREAK out if you did an episode on Dash Rendar and the Outrider…. Plus the scene where Leia hits the pheromone cloud…. Ummmm ya….
Dead sun black sky is awesome
I just call it a science fantasy. However even in Star Trek there are alot of fantasy elements like the multiple races of beings that have god like powers and live forever.
I got into Warhammer 40k when they still had the really old plastic & Metal minis of the Cadians and also the Catachans and ultramarines...now i've stuck with the Recent cadian plastic models n stuff for 9th/10th edition and liking how they look, they look so much better.
I would say Warhammer 40k is both fantasy and sci-fi in its own way?.
Heard a funny quote about the differences between Fantasy and Sci-Fi. Fantasy tells you the time and Sci-Fi tells you how the clock works.
Dark Fantasy will tell you the time but only how many hours till sunset (and the bad stuff comes out) or sunrise (how long you have to survive).
40k will tell you the time but only after you have appeased the clock for a hour or more so that it gives you the correct time. Also they forgot how the clock works 10000 years ago.
I have a separate question if anyone can help me. If the Necrons are more advanced than humanity even at its peak, how is the imperium even competing with the Necrons if that one ship from the dark age of technology just played around with space marines like they are nothing?
Continuing your discussion about tech heresy and machines spirit another point is that we don't know what the hell machine spirits actually are with what little we have being inconsistent with one another ranging from being dumb and/or lobotomised DAOT AIs, AIs that use either crystals or brains as mainframe to even a literal ghost in the machine situation where the soul is either made as if it was a motherboard or literally someone's soul shoved in the machine and chances are it's possible that all of them are right since even the admech codex mentions how they're soo schizo tech that a skitarii could have quantum biowares for brain and a leather sack for lungs and the leagues of votann along with several warp based archeotech artifacts reveal that DAOT humanity had a massive understanding of the warp
Need some help here. I read a sci-fi short story mag that had a nuke priest hood back in the late 70's.
Not "here's new paladins with better armor and bigger guns", "here's new paladins that are more in line with actual human proportions".
warhammer is NOT dark fantasy. If I told my friend, "hey come over to my house we are going to play a dark fantasy game". When he shows up and we play 40k, he is going to say "oh I thought we were playing a fantasy game." kinda like how if I offered to make you a sandwitch and gave you a hot dog you would be like "this is a hot dog"
Your bigger and better paladins example sorta falls flat with the obvious context of.
Bigger better paladins with new sharper swords gifted to the holy empire of man by the hands of the Son of God the current messiah to wage holy war against the ever growing Daemonic hordes.
Edit: But yeah, I feel like the problem is the *need* to prescribe a puritan genre when I feel what sets Warhammer so we'll apart is that it blends genres really well.
Great video tho. I do agree! With your point.
Yeah but I’m that example the vibe feels more consistent as opposed to the new knights being focused only on better sword fighting. Your example would fit more if the Primaris were all zealous psykers
Thanks thank you a bunch!
@@livefromtheblacklibrary oh yeah no problem.
I will say the rubicon primaris Our already paladin brothers essentially being Blessed into the better paladins is another way to look at it.
What's great about 40k, is that, there is only so much set in stone, and it is wide open for millions of other options, . If you blend older 40k with newer 40k you can make almost any genre work, of course born from dark fantasy, you can make a crime, mystery, thriller, intrigue , etc story.. they are all gilded by the greater narrative of decay, violence and fates worse than death. I would say newer 40k lends itself it making its audience more creative... but ... when things get too good out here in fan land... the great empire attacks.
8:40 Berserk had an entire arc about this big dominating religion trope. Mozgus is essentially lorgar but a bit more likeable.
What if we could communicate and travel FTL without using the warp by using ancient alien tech? Let's go on a dangerous adventure into a mountain fortress and steal the tech while freeing a god shard and killing a hive mind leader!
Belasarius Cawl: The great work
I think the primaris marines could have been just the thunder warriors instead just being better space marines. Whiles the adeptus astartes are super soldiers, they don't really feel like super soldiers. Hell most of the chapters don't feel like soldiers except the ultra marines, imperial fist and the raven guard.
The thunder warriors can be reworked in the 41st/ 42nd millennium as part of the Astra militarum. Super soldiers that were around during the unification wars on Terra making a 2nd come back. That's a moral booster right there. Also an adult can turn themselves into a thunder warrior which can motivate civilians to become part of the imperial guard or the pdf.
I mean who wouldn't want to be a super soldier serving the glorious God emperor, the master of mankind, savior of humanity.
It can even add some plausible conflict with space marines and the abhumans because they are kind of in between them. The thunder warriors had flaws such as organ failure or mental degradation resulting in them becoming lunatics. Not everyone became a madman but the big E did want then dead after the unification and the custodes killed them and replaced them with the space marines that we love.
In order to bring them back however, the xenos treats will have to be more serious. Ghazkull has a big waaagghhh, the nids are eating everything faster etc. The thunder warriors can be introduced the same way the primaris did and the guard is impressed. So they have some in their ranks.
You killed my pet rabbit.... Be prepared to face the Wrath of the God Emperor
I started to get interested into 40k by the time the Exodite animations and the Leagues of Votann were announced as an April's fools joke. I do like how anachronistic everything is. The intermixing of Dark Fantasy and sci Fi is fascinating. And to be fair, they should stick to the rules of none and keep it as a clash of superstition and technology. And if you think about that, that is kinda humane on some way.