it sure did take me forty hours on and off. but 3 yrs gosh but have to say your the man who gave the great advice and without you i probably would of given up.. So a big thankyou for showing us. and given us all your many yrs of experiences and advice. . without you i doubt some of us would continue to hone so your wonderful advice is a great help. to me specially. it was my friend who mentioned you. not sure if you know him his name is gary from the uk. he does alot of honing for customers all over the uk. . hope your having a great day matt. And thanks again buddy.
Just revisiting your work, wanted to say thanks, I get great edges off my coticules due to your videos. Half my other problem back then was the lack of draw on my stop as it delivered. Once i learned i had to fix that and combined with the water only coticule method, my edges have been amasing. Just bought a flax linen strop, looking forward to adding that to the routine. Picked up a 10K super stone also to try after the coticule, looking forward to seeing how that edge reactes with my face. But definitely, my coticule edges put a smile on my face due to your work! Thanks man
Dr matt. Thank you for your honesty. Not all coticules work fine for razors and a lot of coticule users develop tricks to compensate...such as beeswax, soap, OIL etc. These are all ways to fill the substrate on the hone just like you said. My best advice for anyone is to contact Ardenne directly and ask for a razor coticule. They will get you a good and fine one for razors.
Great video sir. Never had a personal problem yet with the coticule I have been using but I plan to buy a larger one in the near future. TSS seems like a great store and I have browsed but never bought. I've heard no negative feedback when I have shared your video posts so I believe you are giving excellent info.
Sorry - this is gonna be a long 'reply'....lol. Finally got a chance to watch this..nice work Matt. Coupla things, I've never been big on circles, I've never enjoyed the scratch pattern all that much. What you're showing in the micro pix is something I've been looking at since I got my BH-2, and it is eye opening. One thing though - to proof the 'modified' approach, it would have been good to go back to the same stone using circles and do another series of images. Theoretically - if your adjustment was the source of the success, then using circles on the Coticule the second time around would show the same messed up bevel/edge seen in the first pix. Sometimes you make an adjustment and you get a positive return but it can be a false-positive. With Coticules, especially those that have been lapped aggresively and not dressed down correctly - I see a lot of fracturing at the edge on the first several razors I hone on them. I have to assume that's from garnets that have been 'shattered' by a DMT or whatever. It's easy to imagine a Mohs 9 crystal with a highly irregular shape tearing up a polished carbon steel blade viciously. So, if you rule that out you'd be one step closer to 'proving' that the adjustment is the reason for the success. Generally - I find that it takes a good bit of work to dress down a DMT lapped Coti - in my last Coti video you'll see me putting the finishing touches on the working surface right before honing. If I was trying to achieve that same highly refined working surface by just honing - I'd probably have to go a dozen or so razors to get there. Another issue to work on ruling out is the state of the steel before, during and after the preliminary work. For example - someone sets a bevel on a DMT (are you seeing a common denominator here?) the scratches are usually pretty freakin' intense and way difficult to get out. All you need is to leave, say - 10% of them hanging around to have a full blown catastrophic failure later on. It's very difficult to realize just how much work it takes to remove all of those types of striations. I don't know if your scope can do reflected Dark Field or not; mine does and that kind of viewing reveals everything. All the scratches you think you took out... well, maybe not. Lol. Combine the two issues above and you have a ton of fodder for the 'Coticules don't make sharp edges' crowd. Oh - btw - you can get those horizonal scratches from any stone. Not just Cotis. But with Cotis, the round-ish garnets seem to exacerbate the issue somewhat.You wouild think that an elongaged Alundum particle might be harsher. Well - friability comes into play here, but that's another topic. As for the dimension of the garnets, well - technically, the size would matter to some degree, but you'd be very hard pressed to prove who's Coti has what size garnets and how many of them. It's my believe that the bigger part of the story is in the softness of the stone and it;s ability to refresh the slurry on its own. Since the slurry doesn't break down, the particle sizes are always going to be the same. So - it has to be 1 of two things; 1 - the amount of particles in the slurry, and pressure. IIRC - generally speaking, with normal use, only the top 15% of the Spessartine Garnet xl scores the steel, so you're never getting to the widest dimension unless you're really digging in. Pressure, pressure, pressure. Well - anyway, when you emailed me about the horizontal scratch marks I knew what you were on to and I had faith that you'd figure it out.....everyone has to find their own way of course. The photo of the edge off the French Special stone on my site shows a bit of what you were talking about in this new video of yours. The edge off the French Stone was a touch up after a nice Coticule edge was set on it, and it was done using - guess what? Yep - Circles.
Keith, you're obviously ahead of the curve on this. I in fact did take the razor with the modified technique that turned out really pretty and take it back to the same stone with circles and the transverse marks and rough edge reappeared. I just didn't include it for the sake of brevity. One thing I didn't mention is that coticules, and only certain ones are the only stones that I've personally come across that have this problem. Synthetics, JNATs, Eschers, Arks... I can't reproduce this on any of them.
+drmatt357 That's what makes all of this so much fun.. every stone is different and each one can need it's own special understanding. We say 'you have to learn your stone' for good reason. Some don't beleive in that and then they write stones off, sometimes they write off the entire genre because of thier 'personal experience'. But, here - you've proven that you 'MUST' learn your stone to be successful - which is very cool. I also want to say something else - putting in this kind of effort that you've shown here is not only commendable but it should be a role-model experience for anyone getting into honing. A craftsman never blames a sub-par job on his tools, well done Matt.
Keith V. Johnson lolz as soon as you said it was going to be a long reply. i read it off in my head “wit” you east coast accent. i really enjoy both your videos ( the mascots crap me up) and Dr. Matts Videos I learn so much just from you guys talking and reading through comments. and it is a great idea to get to know your Natis (Natural) stone. and Im still new to straights but. i sharpened enough chefs knives all sorts of styles ,knives pocket knives ect.. to figure i got what it takes to give it a go. and so far not to bad. i need a few more grits for in between my #800 and hard Arkansas. but im curious now that my jewlers loop works again its 100x only but its enough to see that i need better technique and the need for progression in between as far a grit goes before start the polishing can begin. im curious though im skeptical on these blue steel razors . are they really Blue steel/ Aogami blades? i have a M. Karam made in Mt. Lebanon i believe this is out of PA. but just not sure how accurate these blades are when it comes to materials being used. and can it be blue steel or a Aogami even if its not forged in Japan? or can they be blue steel where ever its made. i thought blue or white steel was just a Japanese thing
Dr. Matt Thanks for the video's they inspired me to get my own Coticule off of The Superior Shave. I fallowed you method to the letter and got some great results. Again thanks!
Thanks for the time and effort putting these videos together. I just watched all 4. It's especially nice to see evidence for why a technique works. I've never liked honing by "using the force". I just got a coticule and working on a razor I can't get shave comfortable. Everything I've tried still feels and sounds like I'm dragging a cut tin can top across my face and strop. I wish I had seen these before I tried the Unicot method. If my next shave isn't better, I'm going to use your technique.
Hello Dr Matt. Great video. I sharpen mostly knives but I'm also a great fan of microscope for sharpening. In this case images from the blade alone were enough to solve the issue but you can also get a lot of interesting information with stone microscopy. Sideways illumination helps to see stone topography, a simple cellphone light makes a huge difference. I had many surprises with this technique and would be interesting to see what you make of it.
Good stuff Matt. I've had one of Keith's vintage fire hose strops for a couple of months now and I love it. I haven't ventured into the Coti world yet but still found it interesting. Can't wait to see this new scope. Also, I can also attest to The Superior Shave as being a great company to work with. Great prices and fast shipping. Enjoyed this.
hi dr matt . guess what i finally got my razor to work on a cotucule. and the damn thing looks amazing under a microscope. it was a pain in the arse it was driving me round the bend i wanted to physically smash the bloody stone to bits but with a bit if perseverance i got it. wow what a difference. got the sticky movement you was mentioning and you was bang on with running under water & that sticky movement . Thanks alot matt. So glad i got what you was trying to explain. only took me around 40 hours practice but your method works great thanks mate bloody brilliant. Woohoo trying my shave ready vintage kropp razor that ive honed tonight . i let you know how it shaves. 👌👌👌👌
This is an excellent topic, and I put it to test myself, when I sharpened my SR on my coticule. Everything went well, however, once I put the razor under the microscope, the same horizontal lines appeared on my razor alongside the edge. Where the heck did they came from? What did I do? then I remembered when I finished sharpening my razor, I wiped off the water with paper towel. And I did it on a left to right motion horizontally, as everybody is doing it. So I took a toilet paper which is plain, and folded it, then I started to sharpen the razor on the toilet paper about 5 passes...guess what? The horizontal lines were all gone! After watching the pictures on the video, I bet the guy wiped off his razor the same way I did....probably with cloth, and all those little horizontal lines appeared alongside the edge came from that cloth he was wiping his razor with. But try to wipe off the razor from spine to edge, instead of heel to toe, and you will see all those horizontal lines magically disappear .....
Love the vintage linen. Even better are the treated vintage or the hard linens that come on old japanese strops that you can find NOS (when the linen is white and not brown). Coticule and arkansas stones both step up a lot with a linen, plus you can use it to stretch an edge out several hundred shaves between honing and without resorting to pastes or anything, so the once an eon honing can be a couple of minutes only with the finish stone. Kind of a buzz kill for the forum fascination with honing all the time, but really puts the kibosh on wear on a razor that you adore and really want to stretch out until you've stroked out. Love the video, love the discussion of real information, and the investigation of a problem. I've also had issues with a large % of cotis. I think they're overpriced, but you can figure out how to make something of most stones. Next thing coming out is a drag honing technique on a washita (that someone on SRP dug out of an old state of arkansas text). One stone, set the bevel, drag the razor backwards and you get a very coticule feeling edge, except maybe closer. Works because the washita cuts via pores in the stone rather than particles sticking up.
David W - Thanks David. Several hundred shaves? That's impressive. That cracks me up when people say their stones gives edges just like a coticule. Why not just use a coticule!😆. At this point, they're cheaper than many of the "Designer Of The Day" stones anyway.
Waxy old linen that says "silk finish" on it. feels like a zipper on the razor, but does nothing but nice things. Sharper than a coticule the whole time, too. Agree on the "it" stones. "Hey, look, I got this new stone from out west. Almost as good as those chinese stones and only $300 for a 2x5 piece". Nobody ever says "don't you think they'd have dug that up 100 years ago and used it for razors when barbers were doing their thing?" Washita should be cheaper than coticule, though, unless someone insists on a stone with a label. The labels boasted faster (which means coarser) so a lot of the unlabeled stones are probably better for razors. they set a bevel like a 1k stone, but never any strange behavior on hard tempered razors ... er, I mean, they're terrible and nobody should buy them. Especially not on ebay. Where I do.
May i sugest two of them? 1 - Difference in the edge between leather and canvas stropping.. on the microscope. 2 - Difference in the edge between compounds like green, white and jewelry' rouge, on the microscope too. thanks a lot
Thanks Sean and glad it helped. Funny, I was just having a conversation with someone who couldn’t get a good edge on his coticule and I referred him to this video.
also matt im pretty ammoyed with myself. ive just cleaned up and restored my first vintage razor to a high shine and then honed it. and then used a antiseptic TCP .and it tarnished the metal . i cant believe it. after all the hours of work cleaning it up removing the rust spots and so on. it now looks like i didnt even bother to restore it. Anyway my question is have you ever come across this before . And if so is there a simple way of removing the tarnish without all the hard work again. thanks in advance
The tarnish is probably an etch. Late here by about 6 months, but you're going to have to polish it off. Stick with boiling water or something gentle for antiseptic, or just break down and buy barbicide.
Quick question..now that you have seen some evidence of damage from the circles (on a Coticule).Do you still use circles on Coticules?Or do you a avoid them now?
Something that might be cool to test out would be see what difference if any the slurry stone makes when used to just dress the stone. Could that possibly help alleviate some of those deeper gouges in the surface? After the stone has been flattened is there a point of diminishing returns when it comes to dressing the stone with either a diamond plate progression, or W/D Sandpaper or slurry stones etc... Or after a few passes, does it even make a difference? Love the videos, they have been very helpful!!!
Daniel Spence - I know it’s been a while since you made this comment Dan but it takes me a while to learn too. This is a good question. I recently lapped my favorite coticule after years of use and did it with a diamond plate. Then with some synthetic slurry stones up to 8K. The razor edge was shitte! Had scratches on it that weren’t there before. I heard that you should rub it with another coticule so I tried that... nothing! So I just kept trying to use the stone with razors to see if it would come around and eventually after a few months, it did. So what’s the lesson. Don’t lap your Coticules!😆 Obviously you will have to at some point but the best way to smooth them out is with use from a razor.
Hahaha! I knew you had keiths strops! I have his firehose strop. Love of my life. And i have been having issues with my coti. I have one from jared and one from etzy. I will have to try this and just stop circles on the coticule. So kill the edge on an 8k. Bring it back. Strop then coticule then strop again. I'll try bud.
As always, great job buddy, hard not like you you know,,, I don't who this Jarred is but if he doesn't like then there's something wrong with him. And one more thing, you making these videos with a wealth of information about sharpening straight razor has more than it's fair share of value and no one would fault you for make money off of it, value is worth it's weight in gold because more people are interested in making a quick buck for throw away items than offering quality at a premium price with guarantees like you have.
Hey, just a couple of questions/remarks from my geologist's eyes: Garnets are isometric crystals, so, if not disturbed, they tend to form dodecaherdrons or similar "sphere-like" shapes. Their grain size should therefore not be too much of an issue as they probably either present very smooth surface if just sticking out of the matrix, or act as mini ball bearings when in a slurry. Could the issue with these stones be they were lapped or slurried with agressive materials, like SiC, diamond or the like? These will tear the garnets to pieces creating all kind of irregular, shard-like material on the surface, making them able to tear chunks of the edge rather than smoothly roll under it. These could remain problematic for as long as the surface of the stone has not been completely renewed, which could be a while.... Just an idea....
Thank you for stopping by. What you’re saying I’ve found to be very true. I hate to have to lap my Coticules because it seems after that, they give very rough edges and can take a dozen or two razors to smooth them out. I will initially use a fine diamond plate followed by 5-8 thousand grit slurry stones and have even tried rubbing them with another coticule to smooth them out. Having said all of that, there’s just some Coticules that are not fine enough for a razors edge. Be it size, shape, surface of the garnets or what have you or a something in the matrix.
@@drmatt357 Very interesting and puzzling indeed. I personally have a 20x4cm (8"x1,6") "standard" stone that looks very smooth, greyish-bluish beige, that I find quite tricky to use. Meanwhile my small (10x4cm, 4"x1,6") natural combo (more yellowish, with gradual transition to a rather purple base of "belgian blue") works like a dream, although it shows rather large garnets (quite visible tiny orange dots). It barely needs any stropping after being used under running water... I start to think that Coticules are just too weird and variable to have a "standard protocol". But that microscope of yours surely seem like a great diagnostic tool.
8K to coti not traditional? I don't have a Coticule yet but I plan to get one. I will be trying this just to make sure I know what I'm trying to get with a full Coti progression, but just to play it safe I'll probably go to the Coti after my SG 20k!
I'm having trouble with my coticule too, a really nice stone, maybe ill.need.to smooth surface with a finer grit stone or plate. Still not get good results on the coticule.
Dr. Matt, this video was even better the second time! Terrific slides and astute observations on your part. Keith is a terrific source, as well. How many strokes are you recommending on the 8K stone prior to going to the coticule? Thanks for all you do. Warm regards.
Jazz Doc - Thanks Doc. I usually kill the edge at 8k then bring it back so it cuts the grape skin. It’s not many passes... 20-30? Watch my 3minute sharpening video, I do it there twice in a row.
I have been a fan for years. I have a set of Damascus razors untouched maybe 100 or more yrs old, with "cream bone" scales. Made by England's Royal Family cutlery maker. Would you like to see them? Charles
Both can produce great edges. JNATs are know to produce a sharper edge but cotis have a reputation for comfort. Sometimes I'm in the mood for one or the other. No favorite. I think JNATs are easier to get an edge and therefore favored by more but that's one of the reasons I did this series.
Drmatt. Just a thought. So i have a 400 atoma. Always use it to lap stones. Afterwards sometimes for my jnats or coticules I will use 1200 sand paper and it will make the surface glassy. Does it matter at all between surfaces when finishing a razor? A surface lapped with a lower grit compared to a surface lapped with higher grit? Differences in speed and end result?
Nicholas Paraskevas - For a finish stone, you’ll want to finish with at least the 1200. I try to finish by rubbing the finish stone with a like piece of stone (tomo) be it a JNAT, coti or what have you.
Dr. Matt when I kill the edge on the 8k do I have to go back to the 4k and work back up to the 8k or just kill the edge on 8k and begin honing on the 8k?
2 different beasts Johnny. Honda Accord VS Chevy truck. Coticules are mined in Belgium and obviously the others in Japan. Both have their own cult following and they will fight to the death to prove theirs is superior to the other.
As I re-read your question Johnny, Japanese wetstone is a synthetic stone or man made. I was thinking you were talking about a Japanese Natural or JNAT. Both JNATs and coticules are natural stones that are mined from the earth. Both impart different feels to the edge and this is the part that their fan-boys argue about.
6:54 that's what mine looked like at 100x jewelers loop. And now with better technique looks like the picture before that at 100x I'm curious how mine looks like right now at 900x? Lolz That one way to check your edge.
+Nicholas Fanzo Good question. I can tell you that the coticule edges may not be the prettiest under the scope. Being a natural stone, they can defy logic tho. Email me and I can send you some.
Lolz I go from and 800 grit king stone straight to a Arkansas hard what is a good in between the hard and 800 and also the step up from a Arkansas hard black or translucent? Also what the step up from those in synthetic
Etsy has a few guys selling coticles Amazon had jade stones for cheap too. For 50 Canadian pesos I bought one of these 2”x8” jade stones. I had a credit card sized one before and I’ve literally honed hundreds of blades on it and it just won’t cup. So I ended up buying another of those jade stones and epoxy them together so I can run a single pass with my straight razors. Theses a guy out of Colorado quarrying and selling both the jade and jasper stones and for what I did for 100 total dollars delivered he wants over 500 for. And he’s getting it.
I Suppose any garnet lifted up from the sub straight that does not break down will act like a foreign body to the finer part of the sub straight, We have known for years in the polishing industries if a foreign particle gets on to the final polished object that is bigger than the smaller grain you place on the mop` there will be visible signs of it being there, i.e scratchiest or grooves, on the work piece. The garnets on a Belgian cotncule were to take down the metal finer than a lower grade stone` but you don`t want them garnets interfering with the finals keen edge, I would like to ask ` There are different visible signs on Belgian cotncules more noticeable than others out there ,like the garnets` You could clearly see on some stones they have loads more garnets then some others, So would this make the stone harder and a fast cutter but leave more scratches, or a harder stone is due to the sub straight that holds the garnets,? Love to here your thoughts on this,
Yeah, good question. I'm not real good at looking at coticules and being able to tell which ones will be nice razor stones. I do know a couple of guys who are really good at it. To me, they're like beautiful women. They can all look good but once you get to know them, some can be bat shit crazy and make your life hell!!!!
I own one of them bat shit coticule it was driving me mad, In stead of trying bees wax i would rub it over with a very fine diamond plate this would solve it for a few times using it , then it would go back to destroying the edge,not yet tried beeswax but will give a go, I have another one here with loads off garnets but its heavy for its size a early vintage type, this does not slurry as quick and gives me a great edge which brought me to thinking, may be the vintage type that is a true Belgium coticule not added slate , that is gravity heavy for its size may have a denser sub straight and may be the better ones that don`t release garnets so easy, or the sub straight material is of better stuff , I am just tipping my toes in with these coticules I own,
+drmatt357 - 12:06 is an appeal to traditional. The 8k's finer than the 5k and hence would feel better on your face when you shave. Like I wouldn't have never guessed feelings would get involved with honing! 😆
Don't get discouraged! First, have you been able to get an edge on THAT razor on another stone? Have to rule out the razor as a possible cause. Next, because it doesn't show swarf means it's a slow stone which is OK. They usually give a fine edge. Make sure you work it on the 8K really well. Strop it, make sure it passes the cherry tomato test BEFORE moving on to the coticule for the final 30-40 X passes under running water. And not all stones will stick. Let us know how it goes.
Got it to stick! It is veeeery subtle sticking as the guy honing it before me did a unicot edge so it had a veeery small micro bevel and tape on the spine (it was just a refresh)... Shaves great :) Thanks for the series, you are the one that got me started on honing, and honing on coticules ;)
Those firehose strops are no joke! I gotta stick with my Arkansas stones though ... I never need to go beyond 2 passes, I don’t even feel the blade, 0 aftershave burn, & my face is still numb 15 minutes later 😳
Peder Halverson - lately I’ve been using my trans Ark after my coticule for a few dozen passes and it is amazing. Numb? Like in a good way or are you allergic to something?
DrMatt357 in a good way. Idk .. it’s odd. You’ll have an extremely close shave, but if the edge is “there” your face feels numb like it’s rubber. Pretty cool! Speaking of allergic though if you want some soaps I’ll send em to you. 1 Wild West & 1 A&E don’t work with my skin
Peder Halverson - Thank you for the offer Peder but I have plenty of soap. If you’d like to donate them for a giveaway in an upcoming video, I’ll be glad to do that.
Well, my 5/8 Dovo didn’t give the same result my Koraat 7/8 did. It was incredibly sharp, but didn’t produce the same result. Perhaps it’s in being a heftier blade? Or possibly German silversteel vs Swedish Inox? More tests must be done!
Thanks for the link. I never saw this second part to this with Nick Shaves. I disagree with it on a lot of levels and not only from analytical stuff I've read but practical use. But that doesn't matter. Give it a try and see if you like the feel of the edge.
I don't know why you are so excited about thesuperiorshave, my experience was horrible, the stone was a piece of crap, customer service was the worse ever had, rude and offensive. I would never speak with this person again. It is just a waste of money to use their stones.
it sure did take me forty hours on and off. but 3 yrs gosh but have to say your the man who gave the great advice and without you i probably would of given up.. So a big thankyou for showing us. and given us all your many yrs of experiences and advice. . without you i doubt some of us would continue to hone so your wonderful advice is a great help. to me specially. it was my friend who mentioned you. not sure if you know him his name is gary from the uk. he does alot of honing for customers all over the uk. . hope your having a great day matt. And thanks again buddy.
Love that positive infectious attitude Dr. Matt and I always learn a lot. Thanks.
Just revisiting your work, wanted to say thanks, I get great edges off my coticules due to your videos. Half my other problem back then was the lack of draw on my stop as it delivered. Once i learned i had to fix that and combined with the water only coticule method, my edges have been amasing. Just bought a flax linen strop, looking forward to adding that to the routine. Picked up a 10K super stone also to try after the coticule, looking forward to seeing how that edge reactes with my face. But definitely, my coticule edges put a smile on my face due to your work! Thanks man
Thanks for showing a pre-strop and post-strop microscope pic. I was wondering when I'd see something like that. I guess stropping is important!
A BBW on soapy water has produced for me unbelieveably sharp edges.
Surface tension babay!
Dr Matt you're a legend. You've helped me fix so many honing issues. Love the relentless American energy and drive. Thank you.
Thanks Peter! Murica!!
Dr matt.
Thank you for your honesty.
Not all coticules work fine for razors and a lot of coticule users develop tricks to compensate...such as beeswax, soap, OIL etc. These are all ways to fill the substrate on the hone just like you said.
My best advice for anyone is to contact Ardenne directly and ask for a razor coticule. They will get you a good and fine one for razors.
Finishing on soapy water and adjusting your pressure are two tricks to getting any problematic coticule to produce incredible edges.
Liam Birch - usually it’s a few drops of dish soap in a spray bottle but straight dish soap can work or soapy lather.
Great video sir. Never had a personal problem yet with the coticule I have been using but I plan to buy a larger one in the near future. TSS seems like a great store and I have browsed but never bought. I've heard no negative feedback when I have shared your video posts so I believe you are giving excellent info.
Sorry - this is gonna be a long 'reply'....lol.
Finally got a chance to watch this..nice work Matt. Coupla things, I've never been big on circles, I've never enjoyed the scratch pattern all that much. What you're showing in the micro pix is something I've been looking at since I got my BH-2, and it is eye opening. One thing though - to proof the 'modified' approach, it would have been good to go back to the same stone using circles and do another series of images. Theoretically - if your adjustment was the source of the success, then using circles on the Coticule the second time around would show the same messed up bevel/edge seen in the first pix.
Sometimes you make an adjustment and you get a positive return but it can be a false-positive. With Coticules, especially those that have been lapped aggresively and not dressed down correctly - I see a lot of fracturing at the edge on the first several razors I hone on them. I have to assume that's from garnets that have been 'shattered' by a DMT or whatever. It's easy to imagine a Mohs 9 crystal with a highly irregular shape tearing up a polished carbon steel blade viciously. So, if you rule that out you'd be one step closer to 'proving' that the adjustment is the reason for the success. Generally - I find that it takes a good bit of work to dress down a DMT lapped Coti - in my last Coti video you'll see me putting the finishing touches on the working surface right before honing. If I was trying to achieve that same highly refined working surface by just honing - I'd probably have to go a dozen or so razors to get there.
Another issue to work on ruling out is the state of the steel before, during and after the preliminary work. For example - someone sets a bevel on a DMT (are you seeing a common denominator here?) the scratches are usually pretty freakin' intense and way difficult to get out. All you need is to leave, say - 10% of them hanging around to have a full blown catastrophic failure later on. It's very difficult to realize just how much work it takes to remove all of those types of striations.
I don't know if your scope can do reflected Dark Field or not; mine does and that kind of viewing reveals everything. All the scratches you think you took out... well, maybe not. Lol.
Combine the two issues above and you have a ton of fodder for the 'Coticules don't make sharp edges' crowd.
Oh - btw - you can get those horizonal scratches from any stone. Not just Cotis. But with Cotis, the round-ish garnets seem to exacerbate the issue somewhat.You wouild think that an elongaged Alundum particle might be harsher. Well - friability comes into play here, but that's another topic.
As for the dimension of the garnets, well - technically, the size would matter to some degree, but you'd be very hard pressed to prove who's Coti has what size garnets and how many of them. It's my believe that the bigger part of the story is in the softness of the stone and it;s ability to refresh the slurry on its own. Since the slurry doesn't break down, the particle sizes are always going to be the same. So - it has to be 1 of two things; 1 - the amount of particles in the slurry, and pressure.
IIRC - generally speaking, with normal use, only the top 15% of the Spessartine Garnet xl scores the steel, so you're never getting to the widest dimension unless you're really digging in. Pressure, pressure, pressure.
Well - anyway, when you emailed me about the horizontal scratch marks I knew what you were on to and I had faith that you'd figure it out.....everyone has to find their own way of course.
The photo of the edge off the French Special stone on my site shows a bit of what you were talking about in this new video of yours. The edge off the French Stone was a touch up after a nice Coticule edge was set on it, and it was done using - guess what? Yep - Circles.
Keith, you're obviously ahead of the curve on this. I in fact did take the razor with the modified technique that turned out really pretty and take it back to the same stone with circles and the transverse marks and rough edge reappeared. I just didn't include it for the sake of brevity.
One thing I didn't mention is that coticules, and only certain ones are the only stones that I've personally come across that have this problem. Synthetics, JNATs, Eschers, Arks... I can't reproduce this on any of them.
+drmatt357 That's what makes all of this so much fun.. every stone is different and each one can need it's own special understanding. We say 'you have to learn your stone' for good reason. Some don't beleive in that and then they write stones off, sometimes they write off the entire genre because of thier 'personal experience'. But, here - you've proven that you 'MUST' learn your stone to be successful - which is very cool.
I also want to say something else - putting in this kind of effort that you've shown here is not only commendable but it should be a role-model experience for anyone getting into honing. A craftsman never blames a sub-par job on his tools, well done Matt.
Keith V. Johnson lolz as soon as you said it was going to be a long reply. i read it off in my head “wit” you east coast accent. i really enjoy both your videos ( the mascots crap me up) and Dr. Matts Videos I learn so much just from you guys talking and reading through comments. and it is a great idea to get to know your Natis (Natural) stone.
and Im still new to straights but. i sharpened enough chefs knives all sorts of styles ,knives pocket knives ect.. to figure i got what it takes to give it a go. and so far not to bad. i need a few more grits for in between my #800 and hard Arkansas. but im curious now that my jewlers loop works again its 100x only but its enough to see that i need better technique and the need for progression in between as far a grit goes before start the polishing can begin.
im curious though im skeptical on these blue steel razors . are they really Blue steel/ Aogami blades? i have a M. Karam made in Mt. Lebanon i believe this is out of PA. but just not sure how accurate these blades are when it comes to materials being used. and can it be blue steel or a Aogami even if its not forged in Japan? or can they be blue steel where ever its made. i thought blue or white steel was just a Japanese thing
Dr. Matt Thanks for the video's they inspired me to get my own Coticule off of The Superior Shave. I fallowed you method to the letter and got some great results. Again thanks!
Thanks for the time and effort putting these videos together. I just watched all 4. It's especially nice to see evidence for why a technique works. I've never liked honing by "using the force". I just got a coticule and working on a razor I can't get shave comfortable. Everything I've tried still feels and sounds like I'm dragging a cut tin can top across my face and strop. I wish I had seen these before I tried the Unicot method. If my next shave isn't better, I'm going to use your technique.
Hello Dr Matt. Great video.
I sharpen mostly knives but I'm also a great fan of microscope for sharpening. In this case images from the blade alone were enough to solve the issue but you can also get a lot of interesting information with stone microscopy.
Sideways illumination helps to see stone topography, a simple cellphone light makes a huge difference.
I had many surprises with this technique and would be interesting to see what you make of it.
I love your scientific methodology. You need to test 20 differend blades on each stone, to assess the stone.
Good stuff Matt. I've had one of Keith's vintage fire hose strops for a couple of months now and I love it. I haven't ventured into the Coti world yet but still found it interesting. Can't wait to see this new scope. Also, I can also attest to The Superior Shave as being a great company to work with. Great prices and fast shipping. Enjoyed this.
+Greg Snyder Thanks for the comment Greg. Great minds think alike!
I recently bought a coticule and I love it
Excellent scientific analysis thank you
I only have 100 x.. This is VERY interesting. Cheers DrMatt.
hi dr matt . guess what i finally got my razor to work on a cotucule. and the damn thing looks amazing under a microscope. it was a pain in the arse it was driving me round the bend i wanted to physically smash the bloody stone to bits but with a bit if perseverance i got it. wow what a difference. got the sticky movement you was mentioning and you was bang on with running under water & that sticky movement . Thanks alot matt. So glad i got what you was trying to explain. only took me around 40 hours practice but your method works great thanks mate bloody brilliant. Woohoo trying my shave ready vintage kropp razor that ive honed tonight . i let you know how it shaves.
👌👌👌👌
Mark Grevatt Great to hear Mate! Took you 40 hours... took me 3 years!😝
Don't have a coticule yet, but I will probably get one as soon as I have the money. Thanks for the video it quite interesting.
This is an excellent topic, and I put it to test myself, when I sharpened my SR on my coticule. Everything went well, however, once I put the razor under the microscope, the same horizontal lines appeared on my razor alongside the edge. Where the heck did they came from? What did I do? then I remembered when I finished sharpening my razor, I wiped off the water with paper towel. And I did it on a left to right motion horizontally, as everybody is doing it. So I took a toilet paper which is plain, and folded it, then I started to sharpen the razor on the toilet paper about 5 passes...guess what? The horizontal lines were all gone! After watching the pictures on the video, I bet the guy wiped off his razor the same way I did....probably with cloth, and all those little horizontal lines appeared alongside the edge came from that cloth he was wiping his razor with. But try to wipe off the razor from spine to edge, instead of heel to toe, and you will see all those horizontal lines magically disappear .....
Love the vintage linen. Even better are the treated vintage or the hard linens that come on old japanese strops that you can find NOS (when the linen is white and not brown).
Coticule and arkansas stones both step up a lot with a linen, plus you can use it to stretch an edge out several hundred shaves between honing and without resorting to pastes or anything, so the once an eon honing can be a couple of minutes only with the finish stone.
Kind of a buzz kill for the forum fascination with honing all the time, but really puts the kibosh on wear on a razor that you adore and really want to stretch out until you've stroked out.
Love the video, love the discussion of real information, and the investigation of a problem. I've also had issues with a large % of cotis. I think they're overpriced, but you can figure out how to make something of most stones.
Next thing coming out is a drag honing technique on a washita (that someone on SRP dug out of an old state of arkansas text). One stone, set the bevel, drag the razor backwards and you get a very coticule feeling edge, except maybe closer. Works because the washita cuts via pores in the stone rather than particles sticking up.
David W - Thanks David. Several hundred shaves? That's impressive. That cracks me up when people say their stones gives edges just like a coticule. Why not just use a coticule!😆. At this point, they're cheaper than many of the "Designer Of The Day" stones anyway.
Waxy old linen that says "silk finish" on it. feels like a zipper on the razor, but does nothing but nice things.
Sharper than a coticule the whole time, too.
Agree on the "it" stones. "Hey, look, I got this new stone from out west. Almost as good as those chinese stones and only $300 for a 2x5 piece". Nobody ever says "don't you think they'd have dug that up 100 years ago and used it for razors when barbers were doing their thing?"
Washita should be cheaper than coticule, though, unless someone insists on a stone with a label. The labels boasted faster (which means coarser) so a lot of the unlabeled stones are probably better for razors. they set a bevel like a 1k stone, but never any strange behavior on hard tempered razors ...
er, I mean, they're terrible and nobody should buy them. Especially not on ebay. Where I do.
Another informative video. Great job Dr. Matt. Keep the videos coming.
Thanks Greg. I always have ideas in my head for new videos.
May i sugest two of them?
1 - Difference in the edge between leather and canvas stropping.. on the microscope.
2 - Difference in the edge between compounds like green, white and jewelry' rouge, on the microscope too.
thanks a lot
Every forging is as different as the vast array of available stones. There are blades that may love your circles on that conical stone.
The best of the best! Thanks for this Matt! Helped me a lot with my coti edges!
Thanks Sean and glad it helped. Funny, I was just having a conversation with someone who couldn’t get a good edge on his coticule and I referred him to this video.
@@drmatt357 The first coticule edge that was good is all due thanks to this video. Can’t thank you enough!
also matt im pretty ammoyed with myself. ive just cleaned up and restored my first vintage razor to a high shine and then honed it. and then used a antiseptic TCP .and it tarnished the metal . i cant believe it. after all the hours of work cleaning it up removing the rust spots and so on. it now looks like i didnt even bother to restore it. Anyway my question is have you ever come across this before . And if so is there a simple way of removing the tarnish without all the hard work again. thanks in advance
The tarnish is probably an etch. Late here by about 6 months, but you're going to have to polish it off. Stick with boiling water or something gentle for antiseptic, or just break down and buy barbicide.
Quick question..now that you have seen some evidence of damage from the circles (on a Coticule).Do you still use circles on Coticules?Or do you a avoid them now?
Something that might be cool to test out would be see what difference if any the slurry stone makes when used to just dress the stone. Could that possibly help alleviate some of those deeper gouges in the surface? After the stone has been flattened is there a point of diminishing returns when it comes to dressing the stone with either a diamond plate progression, or W/D Sandpaper or slurry stones etc... Or after a few passes, does it even make a difference? Love the videos, they have been very helpful!!!
Daniel Spence - I know it’s been a while since you made this comment Dan but it takes me a while to learn too. This is a good question. I recently lapped my favorite coticule after years of use and did it with a diamond plate. Then with some synthetic slurry stones up to 8K. The razor edge was shitte! Had scratches on it that weren’t there before. I heard that you should rub it with another coticule so I tried that... nothing! So I just kept trying to use the stone with razors to see if it would come around and eventually after a few months, it did.
So what’s the lesson. Don’t lap your Coticules!😆 Obviously you will have to at some point but the best way to smooth them out is with use from a razor.
Hahaha! I knew you had keiths strops! I have his firehose strop. Love of my life. And i have been having issues with my coti. I have one from jared and one from etzy. I will have to try this and just stop circles on the coticule. So kill the edge on an 8k. Bring it back. Strop then coticule then strop again. I'll try bud.
As always, great job buddy, hard not like you you know,,, I don't who this Jarred is but if he doesn't like then there's something wrong with him. And one more thing, you making these videos with a wealth of information about sharpening straight razor has more than it's fair share of value and no one would fault you for make money off of it, value is worth it's weight in gold because more people are interested in making a quick buck for throw away items than offering quality at a premium price with guarantees like you have.
+Jeff Martinez Thanks Jeff. Even if Jarrod doesn't like me, he's still a good guy. No worries, I'm used to it, been married for a long time! LOL
Hey, just a couple of questions/remarks from my geologist's eyes:
Garnets are isometric crystals, so, if not disturbed, they tend to form dodecaherdrons or similar "sphere-like" shapes.
Their grain size should therefore not be too much of an issue as they probably either present very smooth surface if just sticking out of the matrix, or act as mini ball bearings when in a slurry.
Could the issue with these stones be they were lapped or slurried with agressive materials, like SiC, diamond or the like?
These will tear the garnets to pieces creating all kind of irregular, shard-like material on the surface, making them able to tear chunks of the edge rather than smoothly roll under it.
These could remain problematic for as long as the surface of the stone has not been completely renewed, which could be a while....
Just an idea....
Thank you for stopping by. What you’re saying I’ve found to be very true. I hate to have to lap my Coticules because it seems after that, they give very rough edges and can take a dozen or two razors to smooth them out. I will initially use a fine diamond plate followed by 5-8 thousand grit slurry stones and have even tried rubbing them with another coticule to smooth them out.
Having said all of that, there’s just some Coticules that are not fine enough for a razors edge. Be it size, shape, surface of the garnets or what have you or a something in the matrix.
@@drmatt357 Very interesting and puzzling indeed.
I personally have a 20x4cm (8"x1,6") "standard" stone that looks very smooth, greyish-bluish beige, that I find quite tricky to use. Meanwhile my small (10x4cm, 4"x1,6") natural combo (more yellowish, with gradual transition to a rather purple base of "belgian blue") works like a dream, although it shows rather large garnets (quite visible tiny orange dots). It barely needs any stropping after being used under running water...
I start to think that Coticules are just too weird and variable to have a "standard protocol". But that microscope of yours surely seem like a great diagnostic tool.
Amazing DR Matt!!! Subscribed
Thank you and welcome aboard Brother!
These are very interesting observations. Thanks for sharing the knowledge
8K to coti not traditional? I don't have a Coticule yet but I plan to get one. I will be trying this just to make sure I know what I'm trying to get with a full Coti progression, but just to play it safe I'll probably go to the Coti after my SG 20k!
Lol. he'll sell out of those strops now.I have one and they are great indeed !
+caleb McCullough (Blistersteel) Thanks Caleb. Glad you like the strops too.
+drmatt357 I'm definitely going to get one now.
I'm having trouble with my coticule too, a really nice stone, maybe ill.need.to smooth surface with a finer grit stone or plate. Still not get good results on the coticule.
Dr. Matt, this video was even better the second time! Terrific slides and astute observations on your part. Keith is a terrific source, as well.
How many strokes are you recommending on the 8K stone prior to going to the coticule?
Thanks for all you do. Warm regards.
Jazz Doc - Thanks Doc. I usually kill the edge at 8k then bring it back so it cuts the grape skin. It’s not many passes... 20-30? Watch my 3minute sharpening video, I do it there twice in a row.
drmatt357 Thanks! Will do.
Thanks Matt.........where to order the linen strop please.
The one in the video I don't believe you can get them any more but contact this gentleman for a great linen strop. admin@scrupleworks.com
What fantastic videos!!! Thank you
Thank you Mate!!
I have been a fan for years. I have a set of Damascus razors untouched maybe 100 or more yrs old, with "cream bone" scales. Made by England's Royal Family cutlery maker. Would you like to see them? Charles
@@mooseass1753 - Sure! Email me some pics.
drmatt1911@gmail.com
Do u prefer a coticule edge over a jnat edge?
Both can produce great edges. JNATs are know to produce a sharper edge but cotis have a reputation for comfort. Sometimes I'm in the mood for one or the other. No favorite. I think JNATs are easier to get an edge and therefore favored by more but that's one of the reasons I did this series.
Great info backed with scientific evidence. Subscribed!
RedApproves - Thanks Mate. Welcome aboard. 😏
I thought the garnet stones were quality controlled to be of a given size with the substrate?
Do you use your linen strop and leather strop in progression or just one or the other?
Definitely both! Linen for 50-75 then leather for 100. That's right after the stone but on a daily basis just prior to a shave, 25/50.
What if you have the micron paste on the linen..I thought over ten strokes would start to round the edge? help
Has anyone suggested looking at the stone and strops under the microscope?
Jim Ling - I’ve done it. Nothing really to see. If you’re interested, email me and I’ll send a pic of each.
Drmatt. Just a thought. So i have a 400 atoma. Always use it to lap stones. Afterwards sometimes for my jnats or coticules I will use 1200 sand paper and it will make the surface glassy. Does it matter at all between surfaces when finishing a razor? A surface lapped with a lower grit compared to a surface lapped with higher grit? Differences in speed and end result?
Nicholas Paraskevas - For a finish stone, you’ll want to finish with at least the 1200. I try to finish by rubbing the finish stone with a like piece of stone (tomo) be it a JNAT, coti or what have you.
Dr. Matt when I kill the edge on the 8k do I have to go back to the 4k and work back up to the 8k or just kill the edge on 8k and begin honing on the 8k?
Jonathan Reeves No need to go down to 4K again. Kill it, bring it back on 8 to cut the skin then bring it home on the finisher.
Thank you Dr. Matt.
I am confused about coticule stones
Are they the same as the Japanese wetstones?
2 different beasts Johnny. Honda Accord VS Chevy truck. Coticules are mined in Belgium and obviously the others in Japan. Both have their own cult following and they will fight to the death to prove theirs is superior to the other.
DrMatt357
Why do you choose the Coticule over the Japanese stones?
As I re-read your question Johnny, Japanese wetstone is a synthetic stone or man made. I was thinking you were talking about a Japanese Natural or JNAT. Both JNATs and coticules are natural stones that are mined from the earth. Both impart different feels to the edge and this is the part that their fan-boys argue about.
So why circle anyway? If x works on all stones not just prob line one's? What's the state g e of circles?
I originally thought circles would smooth the edge out but after further investigation... I was wr... wr... wro... wrong!
6:54 that's what mine looked like at 100x jewelers loop. And now with better technique looks like the picture before that at 100x I'm curious how mine looks like right now at 900x? Lolz That one way to check your edge.
Interesting Matt! So does doing the circles on synthetics and jnats give those same problems?
Michael Shults - No, not really Mike. I get a bit further into this on my “X Stroke” series.
you know what is next,you need to do a video on the Belgian Blue Whetstone . :)
I would like to see the 8k edge vs the coticule x stroke only edge and see if its worse or better.
+Nicholas Fanzo Good question. I can tell you that the coticule edges may not be the prettiest under the scope. Being a natural stone, they can defy logic tho. Email me and I can send you some.
Lolz I go from and 800 grit king stone straight to a Arkansas hard what is a good in between the hard and 800 and also the step up from a Arkansas hard black or translucent? Also what the step up from those in synthetic
John Smith - you need a 5K and an 8K inbetween those then the Ark. a translucent Ark is about as fine as you can go.
DrMatt357 ok great. i knew it felt like a big jump. so i guess you can say in order from course to finest.
Hard Arkansas
Etsy has a few guys selling coticles
Amazon had jade stones for cheap too.
For 50 Canadian pesos I bought one of these 2”x8” jade stones. I had a credit card sized one before and I’ve literally honed hundreds of blades on it and it just won’t cup.
So I ended up buying another of those jade stones and epoxy them together so I can run a single pass with my straight razors.
Theses a guy out of Colorado quarrying and selling both the jade and jasper stones and for what I did for 100 total dollars delivered he wants over 500 for.
And he’s getting it.
Would that be Gabriel?
Have you any pic of the coticles to see the garnet particles? Would email you if I could find your email address. Thanx in advance.
This video caused me to order a metallurgical microscope. Presumably, I can send you the invoice? It's certainly your fault!
That's alright. I'm used to being blamed for everything. I've been married for a long time. ;-)
I Suppose any garnet lifted up from the sub straight that does not break down will act like a foreign body to the finer part of the sub straight,
We have known for years in the polishing industries if a foreign particle gets on to the final polished object that is bigger than the smaller grain you place on the mop` there will be visible signs of it being there, i.e scratchiest or grooves, on the work piece.
The garnets on a Belgian cotncule were to take down the metal finer than a lower grade stone` but you don`t want them garnets interfering with the finals keen edge,
I would like to ask ` There are different visible signs on Belgian cotncules more noticeable than others out there ,like the garnets`
You could clearly see on some stones they have loads more garnets then some others, So would this make the stone harder and a fast cutter but leave more scratches, or a harder stone is due to the sub straight that holds the garnets,?
Love to here your thoughts on this,
Yeah, good question. I'm not real good at looking at coticules and being able to tell which ones will be nice razor stones. I do know a couple of guys who are really good at it. To me, they're like beautiful women. They can all look good but once you get to know them, some can be bat shit crazy and make your life hell!!!!
@@drmatt357 lol
I own one of them bat shit coticule it was driving me mad,
In stead of trying bees wax i would rub it over with a very fine diamond plate this would solve it for a few times using it , then it would go back to destroying the edge,not yet tried beeswax but will give a go, I have another one here with loads off garnets but its heavy for its size a early vintage type, this does not slurry as quick and gives me a great edge which brought me to thinking, may be the vintage type that is a true Belgium coticule not added slate , that is gravity heavy for its size may have a denser sub straight and may be the better ones that don`t release garnets so easy, or the sub straight material is of better stuff ,
I am just tipping my toes in with these coticules I own,
+drmatt357 - 12:06 is an appeal to traditional. The 8k's finer than the 5k and hence would feel better on your face when you shave.
Like I wouldn't have never guessed feelings would get involved with honing! 😆
Cant get mine to stick at all...
Certified coticule form a trusted site
Unicot edge
Wont shave...it doesnt look like it takes of metal at all...
Don't get discouraged! First, have you been able to get an edge on THAT razor on another stone? Have to rule out the razor as a possible cause. Next, because it doesn't show swarf means it's a slow stone which is OK. They usually give a fine edge. Make sure you work it on the 8K really well. Strop it, make sure it passes the cherry tomato test BEFORE moving on to the coticule for the final 30-40 X passes under running water. And not all stones will stick.
Let us know how it goes.
Got it to stick! It is veeeery subtle sticking as the guy honing it before me did a unicot edge so it had a veeery small micro bevel and tape on the spine (it was just a refresh)...
Shaves great :) Thanks for the series, you are the one that got me started on honing, and honing on coticules ;)
Those firehose strops are no joke! I gotta stick with my Arkansas stones though ... I never need to go beyond 2 passes, I don’t even feel the blade, 0 aftershave burn, & my face is still numb 15 minutes later 😳
Peder Halverson - lately I’ve been using my trans Ark after my coticule for a few dozen passes and it is amazing. Numb? Like in a good way or are you allergic to something?
DrMatt357 in a good way. Idk .. it’s odd. You’ll have an extremely close shave, but if the edge is “there” your face feels numb like it’s rubber. Pretty cool! Speaking of allergic though if you want some soaps I’ll send em to you. 1 Wild West & 1 A&E don’t work with my skin
Peder Halverson - Thank you for the offer Peder but I have plenty of soap. If you’d like to donate them for a giveaway in an upcoming video, I’ll be glad to do that.
Well, my 5/8 Dovo didn’t give the same result my Koraat 7/8 did. It was incredibly sharp, but didn’t produce the same result. Perhaps it’s in being a heftier blade? Or possibly German silversteel vs Swedish Inox? More tests must be done!
Peder Halverson - are you saying the Koraat is Inox steel?
For your own use what do you mainly use as a finishing stone?
Coticules! Give me most comfort, least nicks and best post shave feel right after the shave and the entire rest of the day.
DrMatt357 alright good to hear since I just bought one last night!
Man, u should make money on this shit
Captain Obvious - that’d be great!
What do you think about this: th-cam.com/video/WcxgvywdgRw/w-d-xo.html. This guy is stropping only 10 passes or not at all.
Thanks for the link. I never saw this second part to this with Nick Shaves. I disagree with it on a lot of levels and not only from analytical stuff I've read but practical use. But that doesn't matter. Give it a try and see if you like the feel of the edge.
I don't know why you are so excited about thesuperiorshave, my experience was horrible, the stone was a piece of crap, customer service was the worse ever had, rude and offensive. I would never speak with this person again. It is just a waste of money to use their stones.