If someone wants to use it for LRS (not designed for it), he has to understand this AND find a way to prevent it. It may not be a failure mode for the Revo in normal use. But it is a failure mode for the rope soloist system. Makes sense?
Not too sure. My first Revo was modified and I liked it a lot. BUT it wore out quickly and could be becoming dangerous… I will try not to modify the new one. It comes with a few challenges. Everything in my online course: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
I've hit the dead rope unlock issue testing on trs with 30-40ft. In one of the redundant flow videos I noticed Andreas locked the live rope side to sit/rest on trs
Hi Yann and readers. I am unable to reproduce Yann's proposed results and would like to respectfully disagree. Please read why and correct me on anything I may have incorrect as this is life saving equipment. I have used two revos for rope solo-- retired one for a new one. So, I am experienced in the field with the revo. If I am understanding you correctly you are saying there is "repetitive failure" possible due to the tubers not being able to pop up. (Tubers is what the revo manual calls that part.) You give the example of the weight of the rope. I have found the weight of the rope to be able to eventually hold down the tuber as you identify. However, in such a scenario, only one tuber is held down. The other tuber is free to pop up. Since this is the tuber from which a climber would hang, it is difficult to imagine a scenarion under which this tuber would also have pressure applied to keep it closed. But most importantly, with both tubers held down the revo still catches. You can produce this outcome by holding both tubers down in your hand and pulling the rope quickly-- the revo catches, the tubers do not pop up. What I observe in this scenario is that the revo appears to catch by a different part which is located more central to the hub-- it is observed popping up and stopping the revo. This appears to be different than the tuber triggered catches. Do your own tests. It's your life. I did. Here are my results. I am still alive to share mine with you.
I agree that the Revo locks if both tubers are held down. The problem is when you fall, tuber on the break rope pops up stopping your fall, then the weight of the rope is enough to push the tuber back down, you fall, etc. It is a series of events. Makes sense? In my list of 100 things I want to do, one is do a live repetitive unlock failure of the Revo. Let me know what you think of this explanation! Also I remember this happening to someone (he told about it on Mountain Project I believe). Someone knows where is that story? The climber only stopped when he grabbed the break rope. It was very early when the Revo got out...
Let's break this down. There are three possible states for the revo when activated. One, all tubers held down-- revo locks. RIght tuber up-- locks. Left tuber up-- locks. Revo will lock in all states when triggered. It is additionally useful to note that either tuber may lift with the same rope pull direction. So, given these facts, you propose there is a scenario under which the revo is triggered and untriggered repeatedly due to trailing rope weight. In this scenario, not only would the timing and weight have to be perfect for a bounce that triggers and untriggers the revo, but the revo would also have to NOT be triggered during those bounces in one of the other two remaining ways available (the other tuber popping or both tubers down triggered). Also given that after the initial fall bounce the remaining bounces would be greatly attenuated (the force would decrease significantly), multiple triggers in a row would be extremely unlikely. I greatly suspect that if someone thinks they experienced a repetitive failure of the revo, the answer to its cause involves something else. Be safe out there. And thanks Yann for your content. Enjoy it! @@YannCamusBlissClimbing
@jd yes the Revo has 3 lock states, but it is usually only in 1 of those states at a time. So yes based on my testing Yann is right. It's not about perfect timing. Just bounce up and down and see what happens. I've found the tuber on the dead rope side catches every time. If you then bounce , because dynamic rope, it can then unlock . If you're like me and occasionally dance after a fall...
Good way to get around this would be to have a backup progress capture pulley on your hip to take the weight off. You should also have a backup anyway.
Yes BUT Not really because the Revo has a bad tendency to backfeed... One has to keep quite long cache loop (possibly with trailing backup knots in the cache loop) but not enough to cause the repetitive unlock failure. Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing i just have knots tied every 2 meters or so and untie them as soon as they are up to my traxion. My cache loop is kept clear so that the traxion is only catching if the revo does not. I havent had any issues with backfeed.
would the lard loop pose a problem in windy weather, say it snags and gets stuck on a feature you cant reach? would multiple loops be better to manager the dead side of the rope?
Absolutely. Different terrain and conditions command different setups. For windy + snaggy terrain, the backpack method is better to tend the rope. Makes sense?
The rope in backpack fixes the repetitive failure mode BUT you make might end up with too much backfeed. (Accumulation of rope between climber and base belay anchor). Because the Revo has the least friction: it is similar to an efficient pulley!!
There is a new descender device on the market, made by Anthron and Skylotec, it is called Sirius. Would you care scanning it and maybe do a review... It seems like a very good device.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing If I could have one, I wouldn't ask you to scan it, I'd do it myself. Who has the money to send 200 Euros device to another country?
Yes but it would create too much backfeed. Because the Revo has the least friction of any device. In general, it is not a good solution to carry the rope in a pack with the Revo in my opinion.
@@gaddzp Thanks for contacting me about your rope solo questions! I know it's hard to find a comprehensive and reliable source of information on this topic. That's why I did my research, bought equipment, experimented and adopted a way to teach rope soloing. I do not answer questions in private. My reasons are the following: -It is dangerous to have partial information about security systems -I need an income to continue my mission to teach and innovate I would love to help you find answers to your questions! I suggest the following solutions: -An in-person course (blissclimbing-com.translate.goog/fr/formations/?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en) -An online course (blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/) -A subscription to my Patreon (I answer on the platform) (www.patreon.com/blissclimbing) I prefer to refer to complete courses. The courses should answer 99% of your questions and show you more things you haven't even thought of AND that are essential to being effective and safe! For any remaining questions, I answer every question asked by my clients and try to post everything on the hidden private Facebook groups reserved for buyers of online courses so that all buyers can benefit. I also very often add content to the courses because there is so much to say and teach on the subject AND I still learn quite often! You can always ask your questions on the “regular” public Facebook rope solo groups, but you won't get all correct answers and probably nothing complete. That's why my suggestion is to take the courses!! Looking forward to seeing you buy a course: you will be happy with your choice!!!
Hi Yann, thanks for this really interesting tip about the Revo. I see in comments below how you don’t recommend having the dead rope on a backpack because of the high level of backfeed due to the low friction in the device. It’s totally right that in devices like Revo or Cinch exists this backfeed effect, but it’s possible to avoid this backfeed effect cutting the inner tube of a bicycle wheel in rings, and putting a rubber ring on the rope (lower quickdraw carabineer) every 2 or 3 bolts. This rubber ring holds between 3 and 4kg of rope. You can see myself using this technique here: th-cam.com/video/DVgD29qdTIc/w-d-xo.html You already have the rubber rings placed on several quickdraws, so it’s very comfortable. This way you avoid the Repetitive Unlock Failure Mode and the high backfeed effect at the same time, being able to enjoy a really fluent LRS climbing without any loop hanging.
That could work... Someone who reads your comment has to understand that the full solution is: shorten the cache loop to prevent repetitive unlock failure (increases backfeed), use more attachments of the live rope weight during the climb (gets the backfeed under control). Each climber has to experiment with his rope and the angle of climbs see what works for them. Good comment thanks!! By the way I use 4 ways of supporting the live rope weight and don't recommend the inner tube method you show in your video. Much prefer Matty Skinner's rubber fingers that you can add to any carabiner. Quicker, simpler and no risk of losing an inner tube in nature. The 3 other methods on the top of the list are in my online course.
Totally right about the importance of the angle, as when the route is continuously overhung, the backfeed increases up to dangerous levels, so I really appreciate the rubber fingers tip, and I’ll take a look at your online course and consider buying it, as it sure contains more useful tips. Cheers!
Lost Vegan Hi Jon! Yea that would work with a silent Partner because there is a lot of friction in the device (relatively speaking). The Revo is THE rope solo device with the least internal friction. So if you tie-in, you will get backfeed very soon when climbing. Having a longer rope on the dead side will make your life with the Revo much easier!!
I wonder if this failure can be replicated. Also, what type of rope was used during the failure? I do tree climbing and always have a prusik as my backup. Would a prusik work above this particular device?
I would not use a prusik as a backup of this device. But I am sure tree climbers will try as they like prusiks. Good question: I have to try to replicate it... With a backup knot! Thanks for the comment!!
The Revo gives the least friction of any device. Therefore rope in a backpack would lead to backfeed if the cache loop is short. Different ropes might give a bit more friction. But yea the repetitive unlock failure would be eliminated by such a technique. The length if the cache loop has to be long, but not long enough to risk the repetitive unlock failure. Makes sense?
Thank you for the videos! Can the dead end of the rope go in a backpack on your back? It's extra weight while climbing but maybe better than dealing with a huge loop or several strands of rope hanging from the harness...???
Good idea with SP and Eddy... BUT That should not work with Revo, you will get too much backfeed because it is the device with the least friction... Makes sense??
You will not get the repetitive failure but you might strip the sheath of your rope if you are not careful and end up in a factor twoish fall... Be careful out there!
@@petrkott3760 It is known that the Revo strips the sheath in high fall factor scenarios. It happened to a member of the lead rope solo group on Facebook and there has been at least 2 tests including this one: th-cam.com/video/f94rrNcaYBo/w-d-xo.html . If it hits the backup knot, it might break the device! (but the rope will stay attached...)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thank you very much for the answer. I have a possibility to buy Silent Partner so that is probably better option right? That would not demage the rope as I understood. Still thinking to do the Lead Rope Solo as I already do Top Rope Solo a lot and I like it :)
@@petrkott8567 The Silent Partner is a great device for lead rope soloing. Probably the safest if used with a proper backup system and above freezing temperatures. How much would you spend on it? (Just curious!) Is it very worn or not?
I am looking for a video on how to slow down rappelling with the Revo. It definitely seems like it wants to pull through uncontrollably on the decent, unlike the grigri. I was thinking about just buying an atc that I could clip on the rope to rappel with after the revo caught the slip and fall, because it seems that the revo is too fast and loose at rappelling. Then I thought, maybe there is trick to clipping something on to the dead end that can increase friction other than an atc. Maybe I could just wrap the down rope around a carabineer?
It.s not a failure, it is how it works
If someone wants to use it for LRS (not designed for it), he has to understand this AND find a way to prevent it. It may not be a failure mode for the Revo in normal use. But it is a failure mode for the rope soloist system. Makes sense?
Hallo gluckwunsch zu den videos , was haltet ihr davon die feder des Revo zu modifizieren, danke
Not too sure. My first Revo was modified and I liked it a lot. BUT it wore out quickly and could be becoming dangerous… I will try not to modify the new one. It comes with a few challenges. Everything in my online course: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
I've hit the dead rope unlock issue testing on trs with 30-40ft. In one of the redundant flow videos I noticed Andreas locked the live rope side to sit/rest on trs
Thanks for the comment Greg!
Hi Yann and readers. I am unable to reproduce Yann's proposed results and would like to respectfully disagree. Please read why and correct me on anything I may have incorrect as this is life saving equipment. I have used two revos for rope solo-- retired one for a new one. So, I am experienced in the field with the revo. If I am understanding you correctly you are saying there is "repetitive failure" possible due to the tubers not being able to pop up. (Tubers is what the revo manual calls that part.) You give the example of the weight of the rope. I have found the weight of the rope to be able to eventually hold down the tuber as you identify. However, in such a scenario, only one tuber is held down. The other tuber is free to pop up. Since this is the tuber from which a climber would hang, it is difficult to imagine a scenarion under which this tuber would also have pressure applied to keep it closed. But most importantly, with both tubers held down the revo still catches. You can produce this outcome by holding both tubers down in your hand and pulling the rope quickly-- the revo catches, the tubers do not pop up. What I observe in this scenario is that the revo appears to catch by a different part which is located more central to the hub-- it is observed popping up and stopping the revo. This appears to be different than the tuber triggered catches. Do your own tests. It's your life. I did. Here are my results. I am still alive to share mine with you.
I agree that the Revo locks if both tubers are held down. The problem is when you fall, tuber on the break rope pops up stopping your fall, then the weight of the rope is enough to push the tuber back down, you fall, etc. It is a series of events. Makes sense? In my list of 100 things I want to do, one is do a live repetitive unlock failure of the Revo. Let me know what you think of this explanation! Also I remember this happening to someone (he told about it on Mountain Project I believe). Someone knows where is that story? The climber only stopped when he grabbed the break rope. It was very early when the Revo got out...
Let's break this down. There are three possible states for the revo when activated. One, all tubers held down-- revo locks. RIght tuber up-- locks. Left tuber up-- locks. Revo will lock in all states when triggered. It is additionally useful to note that either tuber may lift with the same rope pull direction. So, given these facts, you propose there is a scenario under which the revo is triggered and untriggered repeatedly due to trailing rope weight. In this scenario, not only would the timing and weight have to be perfect for a bounce that triggers and untriggers the revo, but the revo would also have to NOT be triggered during those bounces in one of the other two remaining ways available (the other tuber popping or both tubers down triggered). Also given that after the initial fall bounce the remaining bounces would be greatly attenuated (the force would decrease significantly), multiple triggers in a row would be extremely unlikely. I greatly suspect that if someone thinks they experienced a repetitive failure of the revo, the answer to its cause involves something else. Be safe out there. And thanks Yann for your content. Enjoy it! @@YannCamusBlissClimbing
@jd yes the Revo has 3 lock states, but it is usually only in 1 of those states at a time. So yes based on my testing Yann is right.
It's not about perfect timing. Just bounce up and down and see what happens. I've found the tuber on the dead rope side catches every time. If you then bounce , because dynamic rope, it can then unlock . If you're like me and occasionally dance after a fall...
Good way to get around this would be to have a backup progress capture pulley on your hip to take the weight off. You should also have a backup anyway.
Yes BUT Not really because the Revo has a bad tendency to backfeed... One has to keep quite long cache loop (possibly with trailing backup knots in the cache loop) but not enough to cause the repetitive unlock failure. Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing i just have knots tied every 2 meters or so and untie them as soon as they are up to my traxion. My cache loop is kept clear so that the traxion is only catching if the revo does not. I havent had any issues with backfeed.
would the lard loop pose a problem in windy weather, say it snags and gets stuck on a feature you cant reach? would multiple loops be better to manager the dead side of the rope?
Absolutely. Different terrain and conditions command different setups. For windy + snaggy terrain, the backpack method is better to tend the rope. Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing absolutely, thank you for the clarification learning alot from your channel
Amazing tip! If you have the dead rope on a backpack, will it still do the repetitive faliure?
The rope in backpack fixes the repetitive failure mode BUT you make might end up with too much backfeed. (Accumulation of rope between climber and base belay anchor). Because the Revo has the least friction: it is similar to an efficient pulley!!
There is a new descender device on the market, made by Anthron and Skylotec, it is called Sirius. Would you care scanning it and maybe do a review... It seems like a very good device.
I would love to !! Can you have one sent to me?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing If I could have one, I wouldn't ask you to scan it, I'd do it myself. Who has the money to send 200 Euros device to another country?
would carrying your spare rope/dead rope up with you in a small backpack also stop this from happening?
Yes but it would create too much backfeed. Because the Revo has the least friction of any device. In general, it is not a good solution to carry the rope in a pack with the Revo in my opinion.
I was planning either grigri+ or revo, but using a microtraxion to create a cache loop, I think this would prevent the backfeed right?
@@gaddzp Thanks for contacting me about your rope solo questions! I know it's hard to find a comprehensive and reliable source of information on this topic. That's why I did my research, bought equipment, experimented and adopted a way to teach rope soloing. I do not answer questions in private. My reasons are the following:
-It is dangerous to have partial information about security systems
-I need an income to continue my mission to teach and innovate
I would love to help you find answers to your questions! I suggest the following solutions:
-An in-person course (blissclimbing-com.translate.goog/fr/formations/?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en)
-An online course (blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/)
-A subscription to my Patreon (I answer on the platform) (www.patreon.com/blissclimbing)
I prefer to refer to complete courses. The courses should answer 99% of your questions and show you more things you haven't even thought of AND that are essential to being effective and safe! For any remaining questions, I answer every question asked by my clients and try to post everything on the hidden private Facebook groups reserved for buyers of online courses so that all buyers can benefit. I also very often add content to the courses because there is so much to say and teach on the subject AND I still learn quite often! You can always ask your questions on the “regular” public Facebook rope solo groups, but you won't get all correct answers and probably nothing complete. That's why my suggestion is to take the courses!! Looking forward to seeing you buy a course: you will be happy with your choice!!!
Hi Yann, thanks for this really interesting tip about the Revo. I see in comments below how you don’t recommend having the dead rope on a backpack because of the high level of backfeed due to the low friction in the device. It’s totally right that in devices like Revo or Cinch exists this backfeed effect, but it’s possible to avoid this backfeed effect cutting the inner tube of a bicycle wheel in rings, and putting a rubber ring on the rope (lower quickdraw carabineer) every 2 or 3 bolts. This rubber ring holds between 3 and 4kg of rope. You can see myself using this technique here:
th-cam.com/video/DVgD29qdTIc/w-d-xo.html
You already have the rubber rings placed on several quickdraws, so it’s very comfortable. This way you avoid the Repetitive Unlock Failure Mode and the high backfeed effect at the same time, being able to enjoy a really fluent LRS climbing without any loop hanging.
That could work... Someone who reads your comment has to understand that the full solution is: shorten the cache loop to prevent repetitive unlock failure (increases backfeed), use more attachments of the live rope weight during the climb (gets the backfeed under control). Each climber has to experiment with his rope and the angle of climbs see what works for them. Good comment thanks!! By the way I use 4 ways of supporting the live rope weight and don't recommend the inner tube method you show in your video. Much prefer Matty Skinner's rubber fingers that you can add to any carabiner. Quicker, simpler and no risk of losing an inner tube in nature. The 3 other methods on the top of the list are in my online course.
Totally right about the importance of the angle, as when the route is continuously overhung, the backfeed increases up to dangerous levels, so I really appreciate the rubber fingers tip, and I’ll take a look at your online course and consider buying it, as it sure contains more useful tips. Cheers!
Why not just tie the backup knot and clip that to your belay loop on your harness, adjusting as you go like you do with normal rope soloing?
Lost Vegan Hi Jon! Yea that would work with a silent Partner because there is a lot of friction in the device (relatively speaking). The Revo is THE rope solo device with the least internal friction. So if you tie-in, you will get backfeed very soon when climbing. Having a longer rope on the dead side will make your life with the Revo much easier!!
A loop 20m under you can bring you in Serious Problems.
You mean if the loop hangs on a root or flake?
I wonder if this failure can be replicated. Also, what type of rope was used during the failure? I do tree climbing and always have a prusik as my backup. Would a prusik work above this particular device?
I would not use a prusik as a backup of this device. But I am sure tree climbers will try as they like prusiks. Good question: I have to try to replicate it... With a backup knot! Thanks for the comment!!
what was the modification you did on your revo?
By the way you should not modify gear. The details of the modification are in my online LRS course: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
Rope in a backpack would be an idea too or does this not work with the revo?
The Revo gives the least friction of any device. Therefore rope in a backpack would lead to backfeed if the cache loop is short. Different ropes might give a bit more friction. But yea the repetitive unlock failure would be eliminated by such a technique. The length if the cache loop has to be long, but not long enough to risk the repetitive unlock failure. Makes sense?
where is the Revo made?
Thank you for the videos! Can the dead end of the rope go in a backpack on your back? It's extra weight while climbing but maybe better than dealing with a huge loop or several strands of rope hanging from the harness...???
Good idea with SP and Eddy... BUT That should not work with Revo, you will get too much backfeed because it is the device with the least friction... Makes sense??
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing makes sense. Was gonna ask the same. Great video, thanks
denis lejeune this question was raised in the FB rope solo group too. Please if someone experiments in the field: post it here!!
Makes sense, thanks
I would tie the rope at the bottom and carry the rest in my backpack while clipping in on my way up.. Good idea or fail?
You will not get the repetitive failure but you might strip the sheath of your rope if you are not careful and end up in a factor twoish fall... Be careful out there!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing why would you strip it?
@@petrkott3760 It is known that the Revo strips the sheath in high fall factor scenarios. It happened to a member of the lead rope solo group on Facebook and there has been at least 2 tests including this one: th-cam.com/video/f94rrNcaYBo/w-d-xo.html . If it hits the backup knot, it might break the device! (but the rope will stay attached...)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thank you very much for the answer. I have a possibility to buy Silent Partner so that is probably better option right? That would not demage the rope as I understood. Still thinking to do the Lead Rope Solo as I already do Top Rope Solo a lot and I like it :)
@@petrkott8567 The Silent Partner is a great device for lead rope soloing. Probably the safest if used with a proper backup system and above freezing temperatures. How much would you spend on it? (Just curious!) Is it very worn or not?
I am looking for a video on how to slow down rappelling with the Revo. It definitely seems like it wants to pull through uncontrollably on the decent, unlike the grigri.
I was thinking about just buying an atc that I could clip on the rope to rappel with after the revo caught the slip and fall, because it seems that the revo is too fast and loose at rappelling. Then I thought, maybe there is trick to clipping something on to the dead end that can increase friction other than an atc.
Maybe I could just wrap the down rope around a carabineer?
Thank you
You're welcome!
I have a simpler solution, not use the Revo. With this method you have a lot of dead weight (weight of the whole rope)