'The Chosen One' RUINS MMORPG'S (because it removes choice and agency)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ค. 2019
- Ladies and Gentlemen welcome
I'm Josh 'Strife' Hayes, and in this series of video essays i'm going to talk about the failings and weaknesses of my favorite video game genre, the MMORPG.
In this video, i'll be looking at how the trope of being 'the chosen one' weakens the game, removes player agency, and how granting players ingame commendations or ranks cannot possibly last as more and more players achieve that rank.
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Altaranalts video: • Guild Wars 2 - Where i...
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Thanks for watching and have a great night :) - เกม
I love the Idea of 'The Chosen One' in Bards Tale on PS2. "We just tell everyone they are the chosen one. Eventually someone will succeed."
That, is actually a very brilliant move on their part. Telling them they are the chosen one could have the side-effect of erasing all doubt from their minds, making them more courageous as well... then once all is said and done, turn around and charge them with murder, because they knowingly sent people into a dangerous situation on the off chance they might succeed...
I always wanted to play that game
The "maybe chosen one", known to be the "true chosen one" after the deed is done :)
Ah, yes, you see naming someone the chosen one always works. No one who has been so named has ever said otherwise! :)
@AIMbot Well..."happen" as in "you were chosen by imperial intelligence because you fit the profile and then was carefully guided by them (plus ton of luck) to stabilise the region"
In fact the disscusion if you even ARE actual nerevar or do you become one through your actions is a heated disscusion in community.
The 'Chosen One' thing is what broke the immersion in ESO for me and my mate because at release of the game you had loads of people standing outside The Prophet's cave, it was like "You are the chosen one, go do the things" and then you have leave the cave and it felt like there was a sign outside saying "Now seeing chosen one #503, please come in".
Reminds me of that video I had found that dated from the release of Summerset. Everyone was doing the main quest and you had a group of 10 - 20 players going from quest marker to quest marker like some sort of a tourist group. It was hilarious to watch.
@@user-et8vm9cc3t A tourist group, that made me chuckle!
I remember back in wod when I became the general of the horde. I was so proud, I was part of the exclusive 5 million.
LOL
Thats because WoW writing sucks, they shouldve stuck to us being ragtag group of unknown adventurers we were for most of vanilla.
And nowdays instead of progressing, we are back to killing critters in caves, even though a year back we fought against literal gods.
@@Hekk. Being nobodies in a world will always be the better story in an MMO.
@The red pill Exacly the issue, your character doesn't progress, quite the opposite; after a sudden spike in power, you drop lower than you were a year prior ...
@The red pill
Cool story, bro.
What does this have to do with story telling again?
Also, what did you expect?
You remember that time because the game allowed your character to become a god for a while.
But that has be reined in at some point or you just stop having a feeling of progression anyway.
What about Runescapes "You're just an average adventurer but every person, king and god has an unnatural faith in your abilities and trusts you with everything"
well they just look up your stats and prequests before giving you the quests so it's not really about faith.
anyway in rs lore the player character became a pseudo-god anyway, so it's kinda shaky...
Yeah eventually you get the world guardian title in runescape.
This world guardian thing was the worst thing that came to Runescape... It took out the most unique part of runescape questing.
They have faith in you based upon your previously achieved skills and quests. A lot of npcs have tasks for you to perform before trusting you with the actual big task at hand, or have you do mundane chores just because they want them done.
There are a lot of moments in Runescape where you can tell your player character is just stupid, naive and dumb which causes you to get dragged into doing some NPC's chores or just One Small Favor. You get manipulated by the bad guys a lot into doing their dirty work and need another quest to just fix what you broke.
I know the World Guardian thing is kind of dumb but there was no chosen one thing going on how I see it. You were just a convenient person for Guthix to thrust responsibility on and it's not fun and games either. Could it have been handled better? I'm sure but it's not quite on the same level as WoW.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Taimi and Brahm are cheating on me when I'm not looking, and calling someone else Commander.
Hahahhaha
They're scam artists who try to appeal to people's ego to make them work for them for an insultingly low price.
Wow, ........ That's thru do!!! Eye-opening!@@glanni
Also I think Tali and Garrus are cavorting around IDK.....i ran into em in the gunnery section and they seemed surprised to see me but I just can't seem to catch em in the act.....I'm watching those two.....
I think that in single player RPG games, the "chosen one" can work. However, MMORPGs are about community and becoming part of something larger than yourself. Certainly, you can start out as a nobody, you gain in power, and rise to the occasion, but you can only be successful by working with others. It leads to social cohesion, additional immersion, and a feeling of loyalty to a people or faction. Agree 100%. Stop with the chosen one in MMORPGs.
Honestly though, I think FFXIV does it really well
@@einherjar4902 Have to disagree. If I had a choice Leviathan would of never of been summoned, the lalafel queen would of be cured instantly, and Ul'dah crime syndicate would of been publicly beaten and executed. Just to name a few better options. The story to 14 is full of your idiot chosen one doing shit.
@@Adonteon21 I mean, i guess its purely subjective but I love the chosen one stuff in final fantasy. all final fantasys deal with fate, and being the chosen one and usually at the end we break that fate somehow. Thats just how a final fantasy should be. And thats what I love about FFXIV.
We could argue in a different direction though. You could say this makes it a good single player but a bad mmorpg and maybe you are right.
But I just disagree. Its exactly that, that makes FFXIV so special for me
The chosen one exists in all games unless its permadeath, and deletes prior saves.
@@Adonteon21 I think you are confusing "not being a chosen one" with "having free will"/"having options to choose". While often in conjunction, its not a "pick both or none" situation. You can have a chosen one story, but each big plot point could be resolved or branched out through different actions, or not at all. While a not chosen one story can still deprive you of your possible actions going down one route.
However, yeah FF14 is a bad pick in this topic. Its kinda "guilty" of both (albeit if you go down the line of the story, you will see, that you are actually not "the chosen one". Or are you? We will see, what Endwalker has up its sleeve :) )
I like it this way, but i can see, that if you like to be more of a random dude and who goes whereever you want to go and do stuff the way you feel fit, there probably arent many games for you.
"Once you call me high king, you best re-record every single line of NPC dialog to greet me as such."
YES!
"Praise the gods! The chosen, heroic high king walks is among us! Quick, Hero! I need 5 rat balls to heal my sick wife. I will give you 10 copper for it."
THE HIGH KING is above such petty concerns, here's 1000 copper and bugger off....guards, have this man hanged if he returns here.....
Makes me think of WoW Legion. In a phased version of the world, getting THE Ashbringer a legendary weapon that's been in the lore for years and years, becoming the new leader of the Paladins, then I get to the Order Hall, finish the quest and... dozens of other Paladins with the Ashbringer appear. Oh.
I love how the chosen one trope is subverted by Terry Pratchett through Captain Carrot. Last heir to the throne of Ank-Morpork, destined to take up the mantle of benevolent, wise rule. but instead he ignores it and actively hides the truth to continue being a Copper. Brilliant.
Ah, a fellow Morporkian! Seen any good invasions lately?
What's Dibbler been up to? Not NFTs I hope.
I just started the series (only read the first 2 Night watch books), but I really liked them. Good comparison
I can see that being turned on it's head similar to the story of Oedipus, but for the good. He tries to avoid being thrust upon the throne, but becomes a very good police man whom people turn to when trouble strikes. So has power thrust upon him by his decisions, not destiny.
In summary:
Game: "You're the chosen one."
Meanwhile: Tons of other "Chosen Ones" running by.
Why do I need to do anything? Everyone else will be given everything I will ever achieve. I'm not unique.
Maybe an MMO where you could kill a chosen one. A pvp sort of vip victory.
1. if you are becoming an alliance leader - you are the one among few chosen ones (because there are few)
2. if you are becoming a hero (if such conception present like in lineage) - you are chosen one, all you need to do is to hold this superiority
3. if you are carrying +100500 enchanted weapon \ armor - you are also one among few
4. If all above are correct - you could say that the Game isn't wrong ))
You are missing the RPG part.
They say the journey is more important than the destination.
The Chosen One & the Mary Sue merely walked across the street.
@@evacody1249 some people enjoy power fantasies.
I mean that's mmo in general even if you're not the chosen one if the story says you killed the dragon that terrorized the world for generations well so did that guy over there
In Wrath, my Paladin ground to Exalted with the Dragons. In Cataclysm, the Red Dragon Queen didn't recognize him. Leading the Expedition in Warlords of Draenor was never mentioned in Legion. Being Leader of the Paladins is never mentioned in BFA. WoW does make you the chosen one - for about 5 minutes, and then forgets.
FFXIV, on the other hand, has a coherent story that starts at Level 1, picks up at Level 15, and carries you through the rest of the game right up through the closing credits of ShadowBringers (so far).
James Kirk wasn't the chosen one either but we all knew he was going to succeed. There is nothing inherently wrong with a Chosen One story except that it is too often used as a shortcut by bad writers.
WoW's storytelling went to shit mid cata imo. I'm happy I started at the beginning so at least I could experience that "you're just a random going on an adventure" feel.
Since then I really feel like the story slowly went to shit.
I think the fact that you learn hydaelyn isn't as powerful as you'd think she is and can't always use you to do whatever she wants helps, also that the WoL has an arc in post-ARR where they basically learn that having decisions made for them is bad
@@PeninatorSS I've been leveling an alt to see the whole story again - just started 3.5. Hydaelin isn't that powerful at all - she can't communicate to you when Misgardsormr removes the Blessing of Light and needed Minfilia to act for her until she got recharged by the Warriors of Darkness' crystals enough to send Minfilia and them back to the First. I am looking forward to seeing more of her and Zodiark during EndWalker.
@@MichaelPate-michaelkpate Yeah... That's my point... I'm saying the being that should guide your fate is weak
A 'Chosen One' story is not bad - for a single player game. It *is* bad for a game with literally a million other 'Chosen OneS.' I'd rather be treated like one of a million adventurers than one of a million chosen ones in my MMOs. Cause, y'know, when everyone is The Highlord, no one is really a Highlord. I'm perfectly fine being the sole chosen one in my single player games.
Every MMO should pick a completly random player to be the chosen one, and all the NPC's go on about how great they are
and when that player gets bored ad fukk and logs out forever???
you start hearing about the chosen one but never meet the bastard.....
wom wom wom wom
oh sure they can hand the title off to another active user but then what if the original logs in one day?? now you got 2 chosen ones???
@@darthXreven Reroll
😂
@@darthXreven Put a timer on how long they can stay the Chosen One and then put the tag on someone else arbitrarily. Have the npcs report their most mundane tasks like, "Did you hear that XXX$$BigRichard$$XXX has caught a tiny mackerel?" "He truly is the Chosen one!", and so forth.
The reason "the chosen" trope is used in mmos is because so many cried about not mattering in the game. The ones making the game just tries to keep up with the players wishes.
Because EQ, EQ2, and Wows way of doing things is dead. It's time to move past the item level grand.
But people still don't matter. Instead of fixing the problem they just treat people as stupid.
Spot on. I also think the flaw in the argument Josh presented is story telling is very different depending on the genre. Watching a movie you are a passive observer, so a chosen one narrative is often quite boring. In a game you are an active participant, it's a completely different vibe. I would much rather be the chosen one and suspend my disbelief outside of story cutscenes among other players, than watch cutscene after cutscene where I don't matter.
One of the biggest things people complement about FF14, widely regarded as having a great story, is the feeling that you matter, you are the protagonist. People seem quite capable of separating the main story quests from the multiplayer aspects.
@@butIwantpewee
Josh doesn't care. He just wants to make his point, no matter what.
Harry Potter wasn't "destined" to defeat the dark lord.
People around him thought it was worth giving it a try due to his parents' connection to Voldemort,
so they started to prepare Harry for a fight with him.
But remember, Josh has the magical power to assess a MMO in one hour.
So maybe, he can see all the writing tropes of a book by reading a summary.
@@ORiOh4582 That may very well be true but in games where the player isn't the chosen one, like WoW, players complain that they don't feel like they matter, while in games like FF14 players universally praise the story and enjoy the chosen one trope. It doesn't matter what you or I think as individuals, the developers are trying to please the player base and the chosen one trope does just that.
Another good example of actively being against or interacting with destiny without being the chosen one is the show The Mandalorian.
"The Chosen one" Trope in MMORPGs always makes me think of some anime (which i forgot the name of) Where there are hundreds of "chosen ones" but ultimately non as they were all set up to strife for greatness as the "endboss" seeks out to make the strongest one his new tool (they were all artificially made with memory imprints if i remember right)
I much more preffer those MMORPGs where you're just a Nobody/Mercenary.... sadly those rarely are well made and/or successful as people seem to want to be a special hero...
Tell me if you ever find out the name.
This is why character concepts like Goblin Slayer, Guts, the Mandalorian, etc. are so endearing. They're just regular ass capable people living in fucked up worlds filled with unimaginably strong beings.
why is it a problem for there to be hundreds of chosen ones. But somehow not a problem for hundreds of people to kill every named npc, hundreds of people to do every quest, and hundreds of people doing every raid?
I' m sure this is not your the anime you looking for but "Madoka Magica" did have similar concept. Loved how shocked the girls are when they discovered that they are destined to be the witches they have been killing to save humanity.
I'm looking at the Kiss a girl [22] quest at 13:43 timestamp, and that quest has to be the hardest one ever.
I remember back in early WoW there could be only one person at the top of the PvP rank of Overlord or whatever. It was kinda cool.
I guess you're talking about High Warlord and Grand Marshal (not strictly limited to one person, but close enough - It's complicated). The only other thing I can think of is "City Protector" which never actually made it into the game, but was part of the official "PvP-Guide" according to WoWWiki - It supposedly required you to be Standing 1 (having earned the most Honor) for the week.
I'm just salty that the sexy High Warlord shoulder pads can't easily be earned nowadays. I understand their decision tho
I actually think final fantasy 14 actually challenges this pretty well with the Warrior of light thing in shadowbringers because turns out the “prophecy” wasn’t all it was chocked up to be
Try asking Josh that
WoL isn't really destined to do anything either. Hydaelyn might give you tools that make you a hell of a lot stronger than the average Adventurer, but ultimately the choice to do anything with them is yours and yours alone.
Being chosen can also mean something more literal. As in someone literally chose you. Whether or not you succeed is still up to you.
yea remember that Ysayle was also a chosen one too (wol) yet things didn't turn too well for her at all
@@DeathofHeavens She’s not a warrior of light but she’s chosen, sure.
This is a good description of one of the many points that make me like WoW Classic infinitely more than the current WoW content. The last point is kinda fulfilled by the introduction of level scaling. Forcing every mob to be exactly the same strength all the time is so boring. If there's fixed levels you can at least choose to fight against lower odds, maybe fail, and come back later after improving yourself.
Agreed. They never intentionally put you up against enemies you aren't meant to beat (I'd say they're actively discouraging it by not letting you accept quests you're underleveled for), but at least it can happen. I specifically remember some NPC telling me that some trainer I was looking for was in Booty Bay, and I was like level 20 so when I got there every enemy outside the town was at skull icon level for me. While the developers clearly didn't intend for me to be there, there wasn't anything stopping me either, and for the next ten levels all I could think was "man, I can't wait to go explore that scary jungle later".
How to make a decent "chosen one" story:
1. Give the player a vision that tells them that they are the chosen one.
2. Start them as one of several "chosen ones" shipped to the problem area in hopes of remedying the situation.
3. Have the natives tell you that you're not the chosen one, because you haven't done anything the chosen one is supposed to have done.
4. Reveal to the player the prophesy of the chosen one.
5. Let the player figure out on their own how to become the chosen one.
6. Then if the player has fulfilled the prophesy, reveal to the player that through their own actions did they become the Nerevarine.
I think the beginning of "The Secret World" is pretty decent.
You´re not the chosen one, but one of the chosen.
Makes much more sense to me.
I prefer more to be an unsignificant adventurer though.
It´s interesting how such a small piece of story telling could affect the enjoyment of an mmorpg ;)
Lie to have vision to get praise and fame from people. Get hit with a reality like a with truck, realize it's not a joke world is really fucked. Become chosen one even tho you weren't
I agree with most of your points except for the "oh Crap" moment. I've had plenty of those moments in MMORPGs, often more than in single player moments as my whole team is wiped out or I've encountered something far beyond my capacity and yet through perserverence, strategy or other means come out victorious. Most of the bravery of the coward argument stems from modern MMOs lacking something to lose upon failure. The failstate isn't truly a failstate when you can retry a million times with no repurcussion.
I completely disagree with the idea that the lack of death penalty is a problem in itself. Ultimately what it cost to a player is time that will usually not be spent on tasks improving the skill of the player to fight the boss. That doesn't mean you can't have interesting ways to introduce a death penalty, for example plenty of rogues-like introduce randomization mechanics, but by completely removing it game designers found out they're free to make a challenge as hard as they want it to be. That's a philosophy you find in games like Super Meat Boy or Celeste, and as it turns out succeeding after failing a million times at a pure game of skill does in fact feel rewarding. Hell there is an entire video game discipline, speedrunning, built on that premise.
Another point to remember about penaltizing failure in MMOs is singleplayer vs co-op: if it's single player content you're the only one responsible for and punished for failure, but in co-op content any member of the group can make a mistake that punishes the whole group, which can breed toxicity.
Imagine how you would feel if you lost a weeks worth of progress (f.eks. in the form of buffs, gear, etc) through no fault of your own? Or if you made a misstake that cost several of you friends that much progress? Then there's the problem of some people blaiming others for their own mistakes, or people deliberately failing the content to give others the penalty.
With the Elder Scrolls Online, I never really got the chosen one problem you described. I mean sure when I sat down and think about about it, it seems weird that everyone around me was also the Vestige, sworn to defeat Molag Bal, but when I'm just cruising around tamriel doing quests and such I don't really think about it. I think the whole war going on helps with that, like of course there are going to be lots of other people with swords and bows and magic running around, this city is literally under siege as we speak, combine that with the main story being in isolated instances for the most part, and I never really had the illusion broken that much.
Loved how Wow was first with us player's being "adventurer" or "class" we traveled around helping / working for npc's . Then we got status in BC leading to rank in wotlk. Then we became the hero.... and so on.
Gw2 I thought "The commander" was one of many of elite teams, but then it became The dragon's chosen.
I can’t really get behind the assertion that there is no bravery in equal combat or if you have an advantage. If there is a risk of loss, and especially if that loss is life, then there is something to overcome.
Your explanation of "The Flaw of the Chosen One" ignores one of the key positives that this trope can bring to a story - namely, the struggle to live with that knowledge and achieve the path set out for you (and, most interestingly, whether or not you should). Yes, some stories follow a strictly deterministic route wherein there was no doubt of the hero emerging victorious, but many great stories subvert this idea to their advantage (The Matrix in movies, for example, or Frank Herbert's Dune). FFXIV, one of the MMOs you list as falling into the trap of lazy chosen one storytelling, specifically plays with this when later story developments cast doubt on the previously accepted knowledge of that world's cosmology. The trope can be misused, and frequently is, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
God imagine calling FFXIV's story "lazy". This dude clearly didn't play past halfway through ARR. Which... I mean I can't blame him, but judging the whole story based on that is just dumb.
I agree that the story treats my Lalafellian monk as super-special. When I started out in Ul'dah, just trying to make my way, and end up stumbling upon situations that caused me to have visions of the past and then the Scions recruited me and lavished me with praise, I got really annoyed and thought "Azura is so annoyed right now that the Grand Companies want her in their ranks." You don't even gain ranks properly in the Grand Company, you just pay seals to get promoted. Azura got to Top Ranks in the Immortal Flames but she is not very happy when she got those ranks because she didn't solo Dzameal Darkhold or Aurum Vale - that was tantamount to suicide! What about those healers and tanks who helped her out, huh?
Of course, I have yet to get past the 2.1 storyline so all I know is that Azura will lose her Echo powers when Midgardsormr corrupts her and takes over for Hydelin or something, so I don't know how her life will change once she is forced to flee to Ishgard due to her getting framed for murder. (Yeah, I got spoiled to the 2.55 storyline. :()
EDIT: Just got to the 3.4 Storyline and ran into the Warriors of Darkness, who had the same problems - they were Chosen Ones. Go play Heavensward 3.3, and you'll see the situation.
I was about to write something similar. The chosen one stories can have doubt about the chosen one, most of the time the chosen time is at many points doubting himself.
It takes Neo an entire movie before he gets the idea of being the one, Harry Potter is not much of a chosen one but a boy who survived, but otherwise is just a kid himself, plus it is known there was a replacement if needed be.
Additionally, the chosen one stories are more about the journey not the end goal. We all knew Naruto will become Hokage, but how the fuck was he gonna accomplish that. Same with super hero movies, I'm not a large fan of the marvel movies, but I do like me some super hero stuff, and there yeah you know the hero is gonna save the day but are they? Probably, but there have been instances where even the hero lost.
I do agree that this trope is over done in MMOs but his examples are very poor. Back again to the super hero stuff that's also just simply a bad example as they are not the chosen ones, but knowing they can't lose is just being genre savvy, that's all.
In FF14 the only reason "chosen one" applies to you is because someone literally chose you. The reason you succeed is not because destiny says so, but because you're a badass. There's even a portion of the game where your chosenness is removed for a bit and you succeed anyway and come back stronger for it.
In Warcraft/WoW the npc are the chosen ones. We just come along for the ride. It's all about Sylvanas, Jaina, Thrall, Anduin, Tyrande, Arthas and others and we help them get shit done. I literally remember playing Star Wars Galaxies and being a regular dude and being amazed when running into someone who became a Jedi/Sith and being genuinely upset when they changed it to where everyone could roll a Jedi/Sith right at the start.
You're half right. In WoW you're also a chosen one, to a lesser extent. In WoD, you're the leader of the expeditionary force in Draenor (not Thrall, not Maraad, you). In Legion, you're the hero that becomes the leader of your class and Khadgar constantly refers to you and your order hall as "the last, best hope against the Legion". In BfA it gets worse, with you being chosen by Azeroth (the planet itself basically) to wield her power against N'zoth. You effectively save the planet in a 1v1 against N'zoth in the ending cutscene.
Not exactly a chosen one scenario, but when every NPC around you worships the ground you walk on, it definitely feels that way.
I don't have a problem with playing a character that has a destiny. After all most of medieval tales describe a hero that has a destiny. This is the norm rather than the exception.
But it feels weird to play a single player campaign embedded in a multiplayer game.
The multiplayer aspect really is the issue here. If everyone largely does the same thing and is the chosen one at the same time, it just stops making sense.
In Norwegian legends the story is always about Everyday Normal Guy overcoming a great ordeal, like the troll that kidnapped the princess, or whatever. Often he is even lesser, an underdog compared even to his brothers.
@@ravenknight4876 then stop using the RPG part in MMORPG.
If all its going to be is EQ, EQ2, and WoW go kill ten this for ten whatever then what's the point? It's fun at first but then the headache of the level and gear grand comes in.
I left WoW because of that grand. It felt like a job. With ESO, GW2 and FF14 it does not feel like a job.
I feel that even in the end of video summary, it's just not something MMOs can do. Even if the achievement of true bravery was there, facing an enemy in spite of the odds. All one needs to do is ask a friend for help. Now those odds have changed. It is certainly a tricky situation to create the immersion you desire. This is why single player games provide a far greater immersive experience. It is you, and the story. Rather than in MMOs, it is you, the story, and everyone else who is playing at the moment.
Friends of mine who just can't enjoy MMOs feel just the way you do. But a common feeling between them all has been, it would be great is there weren't all the other players.
Thank you for the shout-out at the start. I only found out about this video after someone left a comment on the original 2012 video I made. I'm glad it was useful. =)
I will be contrary here for once and plainly say I quite enjoy being the "chosen one" in MMOs, as long as its tastefully told.
Both as the Commander in GW2 and as the Warrior of Light in FFXIV you are more or less forced into a role of great heroism and responsibility, attested with power and resilience that keeps baffling your NPC companions, and more or less the main driving force behind vanquishing the greatest threats to your world. Some other popular tropes include your character taking part in political discussions concerning the fate of your fictional nation or world, for no real reason besides the power you have proven to wield and utilize on behalf of "all that is good" (whatever that is).
Yet, I do enjoy playing these storylines. There are ways to write them with sincerity and dedication (and a slight touch of tongue-in-cheek), no matter how cliché and apparently self-gratulatory the "chosen one concept" seems.
There is comfort in embodying someone so decidedly strong, resilient, and good, and being on the receiving end of your comrades' praise, loyalty and adoration, even when it is purely fictional. There is appeal in being part of a world that isn't quite as muddled as this one, with a clear threat to mankind that you can tangibly and effectively combat, as opposed to something like climate change or the viler side of capitalism in the real world, things where you can contribute, but will still be a small drop in a vast ocean with that contribution.
It's a powerful and empowering fantasy, and I think the fact that it's appealing to many people is not only something to sneer at, it also speaks for some goodness in us, some aspiration to be closer to our own ideals in ways that maybe the real world doesn't always permit us to. Even when this view seems to rose-tinted, one can definitely at least say: To want to truly matter. To want to be loved and respected. To want to serve your friends and people - these things are rooted in our DNA. And so there is something natural in playing a story that addresses these longings, even be it by simply by virtue of making you a "chosen one". Probably about as natural as wanting a partner, or a leadership position in your job, even.
I don't mind knowing that every person around me has largely played the same story. I can blend that out very easily, especially with the help of cutscenes and instancing. And then even rationally knowing they experience the same story doesn't anger me - I simply see us as fellow fans of that story, possibly even brothers in spirit.
It is of note: You can always roleplay in MMOs, and in the course of that, be however insignificant or wicked or conflicted you like to be. And there will always be sandboxy games, games that offer enough freedom to let you tell your own story by means of mechanics as well. Maybe it is true that the latter have been underrepresented for a long time - but now that we are seeing this being adressed with such games as Ashes of Creation forthcoming, I think it's also important to look back with a clear mind and realize that while some of us may have been severely annoyed with the dominance of theme park games that insist on telling a singular tale of heroism, there is something to them that merits their continued existence and popularity. It's not just a tasteless, soulless trope unworthy of existing - unless, of course, one writes it that way.
There's a lot more about the Warrior of Light but I can't say without spoiling.
Again this canard of player choice. If the game shoves down my throat that I am the chosen one and everyone else is also the chosen one at literally every turn, I can't choose to ignore it. I can't "roleplay" it away. You just want to pretend it's a choice to keep from having to confront that your ideal destroys my ideal.
I mean, there's a difference between succeeding because fate says so, and being chosen by someone to do a task, and then doing the task.
Always remember you are absolutely unique--just like everybody else.
-Margaret Mead
Your video was an interesting view on the MMO RPG story telling. I like it and your point that story telling should not golike discribed is something to consider for future game develipers.
I disagree with you only on 2 points.
1. Lord of the rings has the classical 'Chosen one tropes': Frodo is forced by a Mentor (Gandalf) to bring the ring back (fullfil a destiny), because noone else can. In the story Frodo fights with himself to accept his destiny. Sadly in the film we see partualy this conflict.
2. Guild wars 2 is not a good example for a 'Chosen one story'. The main character desides to fight the Elder Dragon Zhaitan before it is mentioned, that he is destined to do it with someone. Than the critic with the title: our character is only a commander of the pact. He does not even see himself as a commander at all. And "commander" is not equal to General. In fact over this title stands Marshal which is obviously a higher rank. We are called "The commander" but it is equal with our Name in spoken form. Or you can call it a nickname.
On all other points, I agree with you. It is more exciting when the player is an adventurer and not a "Chosen one" forced to do things, because ot his destiny
Yeah... this video lacked the definitions and conditions to fulfill "the chosen one" tag. Also I agree with the creator. You are spot on on the problem... If You swap Lotr and GW2 in the video... its weirdly stays the same.. which speaks lot about the qualifications for the tag.
GW2 actually makes you a Chosen One of sorts in Heart of Thorns. You become the Champion of Aurene and gain unique abilities and there's even a plan set in motion centuries before the game to have you triumph.
It still subverts a lot of tropes and the Commander makes victory possible through sheer willpower and wit (and his more than impressive combat abilities).
That and making a game that with much agency and choice is almost impossible for long time financial stability in a rather dumbed down gaming audience. Maybe...maybe it would have worked back when MMOs are starting up but not right now
I can't agree with this because I am actually the chosen one. My mommy told me and every game I play has reenforced that!
FFXIV has a lot of fun with this trope in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. ‘And here I thought I was special.’ AS WELL AS: ‘That, I can’t deny.’
Z is the “chosen one”. Fits all the main tropes. Born into a special title, exceptionally strong and smart, his parents are absent, and he’s lost the will to fight his “destiny”. He eventually has to do his research (did you know he was a literature nerd? They didn’t show that in-game) and train his ass off for weeks to beat an abusive obstacle, and uses those skills to… basically try not to fall asleep while waiting for the next challenge. Z ends up accepting the role of the villain *because* of that boredom. He has absolutely nothing better to do, so he fixates on creating a new problem for him to solve: and then *you* appear.
Saying FFXIV is a chosen one story is like saying NieR: Automata is a standard JRPG because of the opening line. FFXIV WoL, our character, is not a chosen one. They have their own agency, we have some influence in how they reply, but they have their own character, they're not a blank slate. FFXIV ARR might have some of those problems, but it was never WoL's destiny to defeat the empire, to stop the dragonsong war or help liberate multiple states. WoL chose to help because it is in their nature to help and while WoL is considered one of the strongest characters in the world, but they're still an individual and they become a hero due to their actions and their deeds. WoL even fail multiple times, loses fights and lose friends. They're not destined to save everyone, hell they aren't even destined to save anyone, but they chose to help whenever they can, because it is their character to help.
I do like how FFXIV handled the CHOSEN ONE trope. I have wondered if they planned that story arc or redirected it to avoid it. The artifact weapons feel a bit like everyone with the same unique one of a kind thing too sometimes.
The Bozja artifacts make sense, because they're intended to be mass-produced for the war. You're just getting the first one because you did all the work.
correction- the WoL _is_ a chosen one, *A* chosen, not *THE* chosen
In RIFT, if you pay attention to the cutscenes & early story, you are not THE Chosen One, but one of thousands of soldiers selected for resurrection to be sent back in time in an effort to prevent a destiny that already happened. By the time you fight the Big Bad, he's a Raid Boss that cannot be taken down without team effort. The problem lies with the NPC dialogue. Story quests treat you as a special person, while side quests treat you like a lowly errand boy. It's inconsistent.
It would have been cool if NPCs addressed the Chosen One as a group, since MMOs weren't originally intended to be single player games for soloing.
How to start an RPG (of any kind):
Broke: "You are the chosen one(s), destined for greatness"
Woke: "We are in desperate need of heroes, but we couldn't find any, so you sad, pathetic lot will have to do"
I'll also be content with "you were at the right place in the right time and bonded with the Sacred MacGuffin when you picked it up from the side of the road, so even though we meant to deliver it to a strong hero I guess you've gotta do his job now"
The game playing in the background perfectly illustrates your point. Well done!
Chosen one in an MMORPG: *sees thousands of other players being 'chosen one'.* "I Feel ripped off"
Picture the following. Ranks locked behind level and faction prestige. The ones that would logically be unique would be NPC-only and restricted to the player, but players would absolutely be able to become, say, feudal lords, military commanders, etc, which would all have meaning and grant certain privileges. You could have both a military and feudal hierarchy (probably faction dependent, not every culture in a well-made setting is going to be feudal), or just one or the other, or whatever makes the most sense.
Feudal ranks would require both levels and renown, grant you a fief (a player-owned plot of land with customizable housing, in its own separate unique zone to avoid cluttering the game world), NPC servants (who you would be able to command and use to gather/slowly generate resources), and access to noble-only quests and certain equipment (banners, livery, etc.).
You can become a Knight/Dame by reaching level 20 and being well-liked by . This gets you access to a small fief and your first NPC servants, and you would be able to have up to 5 follow you as squires/sergeants.
Baron/ess is level 40, with higher renown (let's say twice as much as is required for knighthood), getting you a larger fief, more NPC servants, access to certain additional features and quests, and the ability to form a House, which would function as a guild of up to, let's say, 20 people who would be able to freely access your/each other's fiefs.
Count/ess is level 60, with very high renown (let's say 2-3 times as much as Baron), which would likewise mean a larger fief, more servants, and more quests. It could let you form a larger House, but maybe not.
Likewise Duke/Duchess is level 80 and Legendary renown, with rewards following similar progression.
Purely military ranks would purely be based on level and possibly PVP-rank, and would basically just allow you to create large guilds and get access to certain quests, without giving you any additional land or servants (though you would be able to buy them).
Captain would be level 40, and allow you to form a guild of up to 40 people. Commander would be level 80, and allow you to create a guild of up to, let's say, 80 people. There might also be the possibility of becoming a Warlord, which would be basically max-level endgame content that would get you land and servants and allow you to create a guild of possibly unlimited size, but put you at odds with the existing factions.
Thus, you have player ranks that make sense, are immersive, and feel meaningful.
What are your thoughts?
I've never played wow vanilla but i always found exciting the concept of "The Might of Azeroth", the army of players. There was no chosen one but there was an army of adventurers. Simple people searching for glory that temporary sets aside the hatred for each other and became strong. Simple orcs, humans, forsaken, elves, trolls, dwarfs that have chosen to fight for their land, all the lands, and be Mighty against impossible odds. I would like to see more games returning to this, wow included.
They should have stick with "X lore character aided by adventurers, mercenaries and soldiers, defeated the big evil" and have that lore character remember you.
so true. I would not even want to be "the chosen one" in real life.
Seriously, let me be a regular bloke in a beautiful immersive sandboxy game environment that somehow all makes sense and I'm happy.
It always bothers me that I have to be "the chosen one"..... together with these 375 other chosen ones who are currently fighting over the same quest objective, desperatly avoiding contact with other "chosen ones" in any MMO....
Sandbox? In this Battle Royale/MOBA dominated online gaming society? Unlikely
OSRS starts you off as a complete nobody. Nobody is special, and no one owes you anything.
@@Orinslayer What else?
The other ones are not chosen ones but companions of the chosen one. Most MMO assume or are to lazy to tell players what they should be able to Intuit themselves without being explicitly told. They count on their players to ignore any thing the see that contradicts that. That is still a problem but one that has no perfect solution.
I'd love to see some subversions to The Chose One trope.
Like, the ancient villain planted fake prophecies to lure people into a false belief of hope only this one jackass actually gets strong enough to be a problem.
Or every region has it's own prophecy that statess they would conquer all other regions thus keeping them in constant war and weakened by design.
That sort of thing.
Just a small nitpick here: Pretty much every member of the Fellowship in LotR (more so even in the Books) is quite special. They are high nobility and/or legendary warriors or even Godlike Wizard beings. The only Exception being Sam.
The fact that someone's fate is to do something, that doesn't mean that they didn't make choices didn't matter.
Very rarely have I seen settings where "Destiny" is a force removing agency, most of the time these chosen one situations are settings in which the ability to see the future is a thing. So they aren't the chosen one because that's what fate decided, but they're the chosen one because they're the person that brought about the foreseen event.
Their fate is to do that thing /because/ they will make the choices that lead to that outcome. If they were to make different choices, then they wouldn't have that fate.
If you mean that the player's choices end up not mattering in the gameplay because ultimately the story follows mostly the same overall plot with a cohesive narrative, then that's just the nature of any long running game, the more branching paths there are, the more resources need to be pumped into it at an ever increasing rate as those branches branch themselves, and when you expect your game to continue on for years and years of updates, that's completely unsustainable.
If you mean that there should be smaller choices that follow the same basic branch but feel meaningful, then you have games on the list that already do that. I'm not familiar with every game on the list, but I recall that Guild Wars 2 actually did have a good amount of differing choices on how to reach the goal of defeating Zhaitan, they just all eventually branched back into the same story path rather than branching off into their own ever increasing branches, and I know that in FF14 while the dialogue choices don't actually change the action of the story, they do feel impactful in allowing the personality of the protagonist to express itself. "I challenge you [Redacted]" has a totally different energy to "It ends here. One way or another, it ends."
Thank you for pointing this out. It's been an issue of mine for a long time in singleplayer games as well as MMORPGs.
I absolutely despise the whole Chosen One concept. I am tired of games granting my character powers due to a diety showing sudden interest in me, or my mother having slept with a dragon, or some other nonsense.
A lot of games seek to emulate Baldur's Gate. One of the few games, if not the only one, which has actually done the "I am special" concept well. They try this while completely missing the aspect that made that particular game so good: the journey of discovery and adventure.
BG 1: You're a nobody trying to solve the murder of your adoptive father.
BG 2: You've learned you're special, but it has little-to-no impact aside from in one NPC romance.
BG 2 ToB: You are learning and discovering how to cope with you being special, building towards a choice.
At no point in the trilogy story are you destined for anything. Saverok (your half-brother) has killed hundreds of other godspawn like yourself. Jon Irenicus see you as a means to an end in the second game. Likewise with Amelyssan in the expansion (ToB). In none of the games do you defeat the game because of what you are, but only because of who you are, and what you choose to do.
The reason this story works is exactly because what you ultimately are has no bearing on the outcome of the plot. It's not like in Skyrim, where only due to your use of The Voice can you defeat the game. Or Dragon Age Inquisition, where you have been imbued with part of the Fade and is thus the only one, who can undo the damage done to the world.
This is of course only an issue, when the game doesn't explicitly present itself as being a Chosen One simulator. God of War is an excellent example, where there is no doubt that the main character has unique special powers, which the gameplay and story revolve around.
That Runes of Magic opening brought a tear to my eye :')
another thing that neverwinter does really well, the game can reward your feats without making you "the choosen one".
Which version? The single player or the MMO?
@@BeyondDaX the MMO, to be sincere I didn't play the RPG. In neverwinter you are a hero, but nothing close to "the chosen one".
Not an mmo, but dark souls is very good at accomplishing the feeling you and Altaranalts were talking about.
Despite your characater being called "the chosen undead", it does not take much time to realize it is a farce, that the snake tells this to every single undead he finds, to encourage them to do his bidding. You can find tons of dead bodies of every other "chosen undead" that died trying to complete the task and failed. The game implies that those who failed are the other players that rage-quitted the game, since it is not a game that every player can complete, so there is always this feeling of "maybe I am not good enought to do this"
You will be that undead trying to be a hero for the rest of the game, and only become that hero if you manage to complete the game. if you quit, you will just be another dead body on someone-elses playthrough who failed the mission
almost every video i comment on of yours i mention osrs and i'll do it again.. it's a world full of players who are just players and you, as the player, are most of the time expected to fail until much later quests where you have already proven yourself via the previous quests in the chain. even then you team up with other NPCs and you're not like, the big badass.. you're a team player. this can most be shown in the darkmeyer questline (at least my most recent memory of such an example)
As a writer, I agree with you 100% - being the Chosen One is overplayed and less interesting that some random shmuck that gets dragged into things way over their head but still manages to succeed. As an MMO gamer, however, it's a little trickier. On the one hand, the same thing as written above applies, but on the other, after a few expansion and a few crazy adventures, people considering you a big hero and treating you as such is to be expected. Even back in Wrath of the Lich King, I remember one of the first quests you do on the Alliance side has a recruitment officer telling you that you can skip the line because 'someone as famous and experienced as you shouldn't have to wait in lines'. A persistent game that you've spent years in, I feel, should acknowledge what you've done in-game with some measure of respect. I mean, imagine being someone who's saved the world multiple times, someone who is KNOWN by the general public and/or people of power and authority to have saved the world multiple times, and then getting set on a basic package delivery like some level 1 scrub! Like your military general example it can go too far, though (Azeroth sure has a lot of Hearts to give out in BFA, doesn't it?), so I think it's more of a balance.
I think FF14 is an interesting game to examine in regards to this, because it both plays on and subverts the idea of a 'chosen one'. Without getting into late-game spoilers, your power of the Echo is not exclusively yours and it comes in different types of usage based on each person. You're the Warrior of Light, the chosen champion of Hydaelyn...until it turns out she can't really help you beyond the 2.0 questline so your title is used more in recognition of your deeds past that point. As you play through the story, more and more things happen that basically neuter the whole idea of being a 'chosen one' - powerful beings that can nullify your 'blessing', opponents that are just straight-up stronger than you when you first encounter them, political situations where being able to kill stuff good isn't helpful, etc. In short, you ARE special...in some ways. In others, you're just a normal person same as everyone else, and you can't prophesize your way through everything, or even most things.
(also the whole thing about having limited narrative control over your character because it's an MMO and no writing team can write for every possible decision each individual player will want to make, but that's a whole other issue)
You have made a massive improvements to your audio quality since this video.
Holy crap, I can barely hear you at max volume in this video versus your more recent ones
Late author David Eddings had the best approach to a chosen one;
Both parties were their sides of the prophecys "chosen one" only they were only chosen to fight, not to win. Both prophecies ended at the birth of the youngest and new ones would begin after both met.
It meant that nothing was set. The chosen ones could even die because the prophecies only started that they would be born, destined to meet.
In a multiplayer game it doesn't work, in a single player game it only works if written well.
I know this is old but technically correction, You aren't a chosen one in FF14, You are a warrior of Light- There are multiple Warriors of light in canon.
I'd rather have "Some guy the gods made but forgot/didn't care to/can't be placed in any destiny causing them to interact with multiple other destinies with their own choice" than "Yeah, you're a hero so jus' do everything lol"
Or a God that has a world ending demon problem and just randomly sends anything and anyone they can get their hands on and will keep doing so until one/some of them succeed because they can't interfere with the world.
Immagine a God having like a machine gun that loads people and just shooting it at his problems like an American action hero. The true spray and pray tactic how's that for a concept lol.
Yes I am aware about the final fantasy mmo twist where your chosen one is just one of many but still...... Can't we have more of that instead.
I liked how DC Universe Online handled telling players how it's their choice. You're not the Chosen One, you're a random person who got powers due to Lex Luthor and got captured by Brainiac. They didn't break you out for being the Chosen One, they're breaking everyone out. You're not made leader of the Justice League, you help them out while getting together your own League and craft your own origin story. Lots of fun.
The baldurs gate series I feel is a pretty damn good story about being the chosen one, that is pretty entertaining and how exactly things would end up where in the air.
I guess for me, the story always seems separate from the mmo part, so the Chosen One or title stuff doesn't bother me. Like, there's the story and then there's the dungeons. My character isn't running the same dungeon with the same monsters over and over to achieve something. That's me, the player, doing that. Then again, I don't do in depth role play with other people, I just do group content and converse in game. So, maybe I'd feel different if we all had to take turns being the Chosen One in the role play, lol.
Honestly, chosen one trope is ruining RPGs as a whole. The best (Video game) RPGs are those where you're either not the chosen one (but may, or may not become one), or you're mislead into beliving you are, only to find out that you weren't (and may, or may not become the chosen one after the fact).
Most outrageous example of this, is Skyrim, where every faction\quest-chain will lead you into being a legendary figure (in some capacity). By the end, you're an 5+ different types of legendary chosen one. It feels arbritrary and meaningless. Contra Morrowind, where you not only have to work for everything (no working for anything in Skyrim), but half the time you're not even the real protagonist in the story\chain you're involved in. It feels far more grounded in reality, making it more immersive.
A good example for the "chosen one" actually working would be Star Wars. Anakin was considered to be the chosen one (let's put aside that we already knew what would happen to him because the sequels came earlier than the prequels). He was made by the force. Yet, his choices led him to destroy the Jedi order. He believed Sidious, that he could bring back Padme from death. Luke was also considered to be the chosen one (but no one told him) and he only prevailed, because he chose to. He almost turned to the dark side many times, including when he fought Vader at the end of Return of The Jedi. He was enraged when he cut down the arms of his father and as we know, rage leads to the dark side yet, he chose not to kill Vader when Sidious told him to.
You know what would be neat? A Chosen Path to start out an MMORPG - just 'What do you seek?' at the start, a selection of 3 or more causes, like "To be famous" or "To be wealthy" or "To join a cause" and then having minor quests and milestones along the way. There can still be epic quests and dire challenges, but in the mean time you could be earning at least goal focused rewards and titles. And at the end game, there could be some unique quest objectives to finish off a dungeon or raid. Instead of everyone being chosen, they'd be asked to help the regions and their factions, and help as they wanted. Seems pretty simple.
Syndrome put it best: "When everyone's super, no one will be."
The last point about bravery feels like it applies to so many AAA games these days, not just MMOs. It almost feels like it's become an unspoken law that players should never be allowed to stumble into late-game areas prematurely or die to an early-game enemy even if they're actively trying. If I choose to immediately barge into the Evil Demon Castle of Doom right away instead of exploring the Pleasant Pasture of Peace (which the last NPC I spoke to likely told me to do), or run straight toward a treasure chest surrounded by ten archers, I want the game to kill me. Anything else just feels immersion-breaking, and as if the developers don't expect me to enjoy learning rules and using mechanics, even though I actively chose to play a game instead of watching a movie or reading a book.
I think this is where early WoW during Classic managed to hit the nail on the head.
You were never the chosen one. You were simply an adventurer in a massive world surrounded by other adventurers going about your goals, dreams and aspirations.
Modern WoW may have lost that subtle genius, but during its early iterations; WoW aced it, and you really felt like part of a cohesive world.
Modern WoW still see you as just an adventurer. Your character is not even in cut scenes.
As a human, you're just a new recruit to the Stormwind army. You're going around doing odd jobs of combat to help the alliance. As a night elf, you're just helping your people research the corruption of the emerald nightmare and demonic forces attempting to invade teldrassil, and you do it by plucking feathers, grabbing magic gems, and picking up eggs.
it would be frankly absurd for you to be 'simply an adventurer' after having participated in fighting c'thun, the lich king, illidan, deathwing, and every other major lore figure you've been part of killing. Many of which you kill as part of a team of just five, definitely a small enough number for each one to be recognized. And thats not even going into all the major lore figures you can kill or fight in just single-player quests. Even if you just do the first two blood elf zones, you've already killed dar'khan drathir, an achievement enough to make you semi-famous on its own.
It would be far more unbelievable for a modern WoW character to somehow not be recognized for their achievements.
3:13 I'd say in Harry Potter it wasn't Harry's destiny to win, but rather Voldemort was destined to kill himself over him. Not even due to a prophecy which was a self-fulfilling untargeted gibberish, but because he haven't got the memo the first time. He believed into that gibberish and fell into a trap made by Harry's parents and end up infusing Harry with own magic... which is the reason why Harry end up with that particular wand. Tom himself choose him, created the weapon of his own destruction, reinforced, pointed at himself and pulled the trigger. The end result is the same and Harry's input barely ever matter, but semantics is different.
BTW, Frodo actually was destined to win. Not because someone came and told he's a destined hero, but because it would be awkward for the main character to die in the end and fail the quest. His victory was expected while defeat, while not entirely impossible, would actually defy the expectations. He almost lost his own will to the Ring, but even that was resolved by a Gollum's desire to have it for himself. The Ring was never destined to return to its master. It was able to affect the bearer's mind, but that's not a destiny. So, the victory was expected, it's the road to it that wasn't. In the best case there was no destiny at all. He just did what he could.
I do agree that being a "chosen one" in MMO is oxymoron. Always felt hilarius and never right.
This video reminds me of the quote from the incredibles
“When everyone’s special, than no one will be.”
This isn't to do with MMOs but I felt the same way when Pokemon games went from going on an adventure, to FORCING you to capture the boxart Legendary at the end of your story. Legendaries used to be an optional thing you'd discover and making that choice to capture them felt good because it was a challenge. Now they make you the destined champion in every game and give you a free master ball so that you not only HAVE to capture the Legendary as part of the story, but you also cannot fail at capturing it, making the special feeling of having one feel meaningless.
Also, even when I was younger, when I captured a Legenday Pokemon for the first time, I'd be excited to show it off in battles. I'd get into fights with NPCs who had clearly inferior pokemon, but quickly got bummed out when I realised that none of these NPCs had actually acknowledged the fact that I caught one and they were seeing it before their eyes. The value of Legendary pokemon at that point quickly diminished for me and from that point on I simply cared less when new "Legendaries" were introduced to the series.
I'd ask myself:
What makes them Legendary? Why is my Legendary not acknowledged outside of the first instance of capturing it? Why were my chances of capturing it 100%? And so on.
Sorry for being offtopic, but your points in the video really just reminded me of how the joy in Pokemon games went from challenging the best of the best through your own simple adventures and discoveries, to being put on a set path to succeed and the discovery to be non-existent.
I personally feel more immersed when I feel like a valueless vessel exploring a living breathing world that DOES HAVE heros in it (hardcore players who spend 12+ hrs a day raiding) thats what created the immersion to me is this economy and hierarchy of power between players. I am still waiting for an MMO that functions like Morrowind where all the npcs speak to you condescendingly but give you more respect as you gain reputation and you get more powerful
WoW: Legion introducing class order halls and making every single player their class's leader with their unique weapons was the most counterintuitive concept in role playing history. You want to have a bond with every other player of your class, but when you're all the leader, the rest of them may as well not exist in your story. That's not even getting into the fact that you, as the leader, still take orders from NPCs withing your order.
This topic is exactly why I never got into MMOs, until I found EvE online.
I absolutely loathe it, when a game tries to tell me how special I am, without actually creating a world, where that is true.
It goes into what has been dubbed "ludonarrative dissonance" basically the idea, that gameplay and story work against each other, instead of helping each other.
And more traditionally it goes into the writing advice of "show, don't tell"
And games as an interactive medium are uniquely equipped to show, since they are the only medium that is so interactive, that you personally are part of the world.
And yet, most MMOs, and many games overall tell you a story while the gameplay doesnt interact with it at all.
Of course there are games like Skyrim, or Oblivion, where the game tells you, that you are special. But largely, its up to you, if you want to be in those games.
If I play Oblivion, I can just explore and quest after I escape the prison as an absolute nobody. If I play skyrim, I can just ignore riverwood and explore the world and quest as an absolute nobody.
And the major quest lines I do, actually have dialogue change. If I become the archmage at the college, people adress me as such. If I engage in the civil war, people recognise that. If I become a companion, people acknowledge that. And most of these things aren't tied into the main quest at all.
I don't have to "follow destiny" if I dont want to, and most of these story lines are not written as a chosen one thing. But just as something you can do.
EvE then as an MMO managed to pull that off great. Everybody in that game is somewhat special, as you are an effectively immortal capsuleer. This explains, why you are so much more powerful than NPCs which are considered "normal" pilots. But beyond that, everything you do is up to you.
Of course it quite easily skirts around the storyline issue, by just not having one. But still, the lore the game has never creates a dissonance between what you are, and what you are doing.
Another game with ludonarrative dissonance was for example Cyberpunk. Which had the opposite issue. The game goes out of your way to tell you, that you are not special. But then the gameplay forces you into situations, you maybe wouldn't get yourself into, if you had the choice.
For example "the Heist" the game does exactly what skyrim doesnt. It locks the world behind doing the main quest far enough for you to be special.
You are forced into doing a suicide mission, with the game afterwards constantly berating you for doing so, while you as the player never had a choice in the matter.
And while the story keeps trying to tell you, that you arent special, that there is no destiny, etc. being put into a position, where you are forced to act, and giving a very limited amount of options makes it feel just like any "chosen one" story.
And I find this example so interesting, because it illustrates, that the chosen one issue can even happen when the story writers try really hard to make you into nothing special.
basically just by virtue of designing a game with limited options, that force you into a story line, that you are supposed to grow from... but can't because its not your choice.
Meaningless titles are what ruined Skyrim for me. I powered through the entite mage guild subquest because I found it interesting, and became an archmage. I then proceeded to *start* doing the thief/warrior/etc quests. And in every one of those quests I was treated as a lowly no-name nobody doing basic fetch quests... even though I was the freaking Archmage, strongest wizard in the land.
And that kind of broke the game for me.
I realize that, ideally, you don't just power through one guild, you do all those quests interspersed with the main story and explore all the map equally and visit all the towns but... not what happened for me.
And then I stopped playing the game shortly after, never finished it. I was enjoying it up to that point though.
I have similar issues in FF14 where you can be a level 30 blacksmith, but the armorer subjob will still have you cranking out basic ingots before anything else... though at least there the gear you carried over from the other class and lower levellig bonuses speed the process along.
My introduction to MMOs was Star Trek Online. The rank issue really bothered me in that game as, in endgame, you are a Fleet Admiral... Just like everyone else. you are a fleet admiral but still directly commanding an individual ship. You are a hero of several conflicts, but all the other players have the exact same experience. This always bothered me but you had an amazing way of articulating just how it did.
why is it a problem for everyone to be a fleet admiral, but not a problem for everyone to beat the same enemies? if everyones story has to be canon in the game at once, then it makes equal nonsense for multiple people to kill any given unique npc. How are there even still enemies when you have thousands of players killing them constantly?
@@lenkagamine4145 suspension of disbelief bro we cant create a single storyline for every single player
@@aaaaaaa6402 Well it just seems arbitrary that suspension of disbelief works for all of those things, yet doesnt work for everyone being a fleet admiral. If suspension of disbelief works for killing the same enemy multiple times then it should also work for having multiple players kill the same enemy or hold the same rank.
@@lenkagamine4145 yeah it kinda is arbitrary, its like a feeling, various people killing the same enemy doesn't feel like 99% of people being the "0.1% of top admirals" or smth I dunno never played STO
@@aaaaaaa6402 well I cant argue with feelings I guess, no accounting for taste and all that. Just seems silly when its used as a main critique of a game since its so arbitrary. But if its not your cup of tea I get that.
I'm sorry, but the whole "Flaw of the Chosen One" section is hogwash. Just because your character has the powers or abilities to be the chosen one doesn't automatically mean they're destined to succeed (similarly, just because the One Ring wants to get back to Sauron doesn't mean it's "destined" to), it just means they have the chance. If there's a literal prophecy or something foretells the coming of "XxXSephirothXxX the destined hero" to defeat the great evil, then maybe, but if your character just happens to have a special set of powers that makes them suitable to standing up against the BBEG, that doesn't mean they're "destined" to do jack crap.
If you're complaining about how you *have* to go out and use your powers to save the world... it wouldn't be much of a video game if you could just ignore the Call to Adventure and let the world end.
And as for the "everyone is the Chosen One in an MMO" thing, I feel like I say this a lot, but FFXIV did this well. You *are* the Chosen One, the Warrior of Light. Everyone else is an adventurer like you, they just don't have The Echo (your special Chosen One power). There's only one Chosen One, you, but there are millions of ordinary adventurers, the other players.
Something I find that helps define if a "Chosen One" plot will be leaned on is how a story starts. Why does a story start when it does? It's because something happens that is different and significant from every other day. However, many interesting stories will have this be via the protagonist making a choice and doing that different thing. If the difference is via something outside of their control completely (such as their village being attacked without warning or a mentor arriving to proclaim them as said "Chosen One"), then you're looking at a potential linear path being set up. Not an iron-proof comparison, but something to think about.
Agree 100% shame this content hasn't gotten more views
WRT the issues you discussed here: In RuneScape 3, the player supposedly earns the title World Guardian after completing one specific quest: The World Wakes From that point on, every player in the game is often addressed as 'World Guardian" whether they've completed the quest or not. I sure as heck haven't done that quest, but I get called that a lot by NPCs from other "6th Age" quests. Oh well....
One RS TH-camr, WillMissIt (RSWillMissit on YT), did one of his humorous videos on this very concept, where a player announces he's the World Guardian, then another comes up and says, no I am, and it snowballs, with more and more players coming up and claiming the title. I had to laugh at that.
In my view, the whole concept of this ranked leader or chosen one goes counter to the concept of the MMORPG, which for me is the ability to play the game the way I want in the order I want, and not follow some specific predestined path.
I'd argue that the protagonist for Final Fantasy XIV is not the chosen one, especially if you get through the Shadowbringers expansion, it's proven we weren't chosen specifically by Hydaelyn, we just happened to be in the right place at the right time, it was all chance, not fate or destiny. The protagonist has also defied fate/destiny on numerous occasions, for example, in Shadowbringers, The First was destined to be consumed by light and eventually destroyed, bringing calamity to The Source, but we defeat the Lightwardens and Vauthry, defying that destiny.
There's also the fact that we haven't actually had the blessing of Hydaelyn since late-ARR, as the protagonist has not had any contact with Hydaelyn since having this blessing taken from them by Midgardsormr after defeating him in the dungeon, Keeper of the Lake. Though the Ascians seem to think we still have that blessing, the events of Shadowbringers make it clear where our power comes from, it's a different source, we are the 14th Unsundered, so the protagonist is in fact an Ascian as well.
Bravery of the Coward also applies in FFXIV, there's been numerous times when the protagonist should've been defeated, but it's only through sheer tenacity that they pull through, not fate or destiny, a few examples being;
Zenos yae Galvus: We get soundly defeated by Zenos on multiple occasions and only survived due to his twisted brand of mercy, you even see the protagonist fear for their life on certain occasions.
Emet-Selch/Hades: You can tell with everything leading up to that final battle that the protagonist was fearing for their life, the only reason they appear so resolute before the final battle is anger, especially when one dialogue option is "This ends now... one way or another... it ends here...", which hints that even they weren't sure that they would prevail.
The whole rank thing doesn't really apply to FFXIV though, as the "rank" Warrior of Light, isn't really a rank, it's more of a title, as the phrase "Fellow Warriors of Light" comes up in several key NPC conversations, hinting that they know there is more than one, even Elidibus uses the phrase Warrior of Light in plural form. Warrior of Darkness on the other hand is more akin to a coping mechanism by the people using it, they want to believe these legends are true, they want to believe they can be saved, so they foist that rank upon you.
As for Grand Company ranks, it's actually handled well in terms of use in dialogue, any NPC member of that Grand Company will refer to the player by their current rank, for example, when I talk to any Maelstrom NPC, I would get referred to as Captain, as my current rank is Storm Captain. There's also several ranks that are currently unobtainable, highest current being Captain, the ranks are as follows;
Recruit
Private Third Class
Private Second Class
Private First Class
Corporal
Sergeant Third Class
Sergeant Second Class
Sergeant First Class
Chief Sergeant
Second Lieutenant
First Lieutenant
Captain
Second Commander
First Commander
High Commander
Rear Marshal
Vice Marshal
Marshal
Grand Marshal
Champion
"I don't want to be the chosen one, I want to choose to Be the one"
very good....
Suggestion for the Rank Issue:
There's a Limited Number of Players who can achieve These roles. Players can rank up to displace Other Players to gain the Role for themselves, With the old role-haver being deranked. The old role-haver can Then Work to regain the Role, however He cannot Work to keep the Role before losing it.
This might be flawed, I'm Not a Game Designer Nor MMO player
exactly what classic wow has right now
I remember GW2 very well. In our guild we make fun of it by greeting everyone "Morning Commander" and remark on global chat that there's more Commanders than soldiers in the Pact.
It's been a while since I read Harry Potter but I don't remember Harry being the chosen one. He was the "boy who lived", the one who had defeated Voldemort, but there wasn't afaik any promise Voldemort would come back, if he did, that he would lose, and if he would, that Harry would have anything to do with it.
SPOILER: DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE SAGA OF DARREN SHAN AND WANT TO REMAIN SPOILER FREE
The Saga of Darren Shan is my favourite book series of all time. Nostalgia plays a big part in this. It's the series that got me into reading as a child. The entire series is a perfect demonstration of the chosen one plotline, and how to do it well. but you don't even realise it. The ending revealing that the series had a huge chosen one (or two) plot the entire time without you realising, with the hero then subverting "Destiny" in the most satisfying way ever is such a perfect end to an amazing series of books.
I tend to prefer the higher level stuff in Tabletop RPGs like D&D; but that's usually a result of me starting from low levels, and building up my character, slowly reaching for goals that seem just out of reach, and then managing to grab hold of it... and then move onto the next goal.
My current character in Pathfinder is level 11 and Mythic; on one hand they've obtained a lot of power and influence, such as being able to grant divine spells to followers, being the leader of a barely functional town on the far edge of a country, and having a decent sized business able to provide the team magic items... But in a rescue mission into another plane, we find our path blocked by powerful possibly incorporeal undead we could BARELY manage to hurt with even our most overengineered weapons made specifically to hurt undead; and worse, if they hit us even once, we would be likely to be knocked out almost immediately if not killed outright. So we had to run past them, and pray they didn't hit us with attacks of opportunity.
Its that magical moment of "we have prepared so much for this moment, and it still might not be enough" that makes it so much more delicious than the vulnerable early levels... I've had enough characters die at low levels that at this point I'm desensitized to it; so when this character, who might have only have only survived because she ran from a figurative horde of rats early on, finally beginning to bloom, but her goals are still just a bit beyond her reach... I find myself MAXIMUM invested.
The irony may be that despite my character being as powerful as she is; she may still be the weakest in the party by a decent margin. She's the only one with Mythic Ranks, but that's an achievement based progression system. The rest of the party chose a different boon in its place, that scales with character level instead.
I do want to point out: apparently going into the literal shadow-realm and killing perhaps one of the most terrifying undead in a land FILLED with terrifying undead that could kill any one of us in a single attack was NOT enough to count as a big enough achievement for me to increase in mythic rank.
City of Villains had a neat spin on The Chosen One. At the end of the tutorial zone you find that the prison riot you're using to escape was kicked off by villain group Arachnos, who is ferrying inmates away. If you talk to the agents coordinating it, they tell you they found a prophesy that there was an important chosen one in the prison. The time wasn't specific, and they don't know /who/ that is, or /when/ specifically they're there, so they're just periodically conducting raids on the logic that whoever is the actual Chosen One is will be cunning, bold, and powerful enough to use their raids to escape. I don't believe it comes up much after that.
If you start as an Arachnos soldier, the game starts by telling you that you are not on the list of potential Chosen Ones. You eventually break into a secure Arachnos facility and hack the database to add your name to the list. afterwards the Seer in charge of the prophecy basically tells you that they know you broke the rules, but since you showed initiative and cunning they see no reason to remove you from the list. I thought it was a nice touch.
Back in high school (which for me was 2010-15), I became addicted to Harry Potter; I hadn't read it in primary school, and I liked the adventures he went through, not to mention the foreshadowing in earlier books that would be expanded on later.
Sure, it wasn't a perfect series - I never did like how girls could freely enter the boys' dorm, but not vice-versa, or how there were a lot more notable female characters than males - but it still fascinated my teenage self.
After graduating from high school, I stopped reading the books and started reading fanfiction, since there were (are) so many great alternate takes on this world; I still read them from time to time, even now, though I have long since branched out to fanfics of other series, like Persona and Miraculous Ladybug (which I find more interesting than watching the ML show).
There are plenty popular mods for the Elder Scrolls games which give you a different backstory and drop you into a world where you can avoid starting the main quest forever. It's not just MMOs that removing "chosen one" narratives can improve.
There are already too many people IRL walking around thinking they are the chosen one, I don't need it in the games I'm trying to escape to.
I think you'd like The Wheel of Time. The books, particularly, because the show feeds into this, rather than observing, acknowledging, and subverting it.
The chosen ones in question, the three _ta'veren,_ are explicitly stated to have very little agency when it comes to the main plot. The Dragon Reborn is not destined to _win,_ mind you, but he cannot simply choose not to try. If he does avoid desiny, the very fabric of the universe will force him back on track, often with tragic collateral damage.
Meanwhile, the two main characters who are _not_ chosen ones are still instrumental to the Light's victory, _because_ they can do whatever they want.
Additionally, the _ta'veren_ are able to still leave a lasting influence on the world, based on their choices, so long as thise choices are to do with what are essentially side quests.
Example could you some refining but concepts are rock solid. Bonus points for originality.
Point 3 reminds me of darksouls 3 when the soul of cinder at the start of the game is piling up you and other ashen ones past failures.
Although you do have a point on the " 1 - The Flaw of the Chosen One" placing Harry Potter on the destined to win spot was a very poor choise.
Harry Potter was never destined to win anything.
He survives because of his mother, and was given by the people it self the title of "The Chosen one" "The Boy Who lived", but there was nothing special in him at the beginning, quite the contrary.
If not for Hermione he would be dead by the end of the first book.
It was the pressure from the title "The Boy Who Lived" given to him by the wizard community after the news about he had survived the dark lord, that made he buy fights way above his league all the time.
There was never a "written in the stars" about him saying he would win in the end, there was only the pressure put in a boy's shoulders because of a heroic act from his mother to save him leading that same boy in to accepting all that responsibility that was never his own in the first place.
To be honest i'm surprised that you didn't get or remember that; I mean, you're British aren't you?
@James Black Yes, there was the prophecy, but it is usually agreed upon that is also applies to Neville Longbottom, who was born at about the same time and in the end did the same thing. Voldemort helped turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy, but Neville would have also done it in the end.
I want my failures to have meaning. If I manage to fail a quest, have that impact the world somehow. if I chose to not do the quest, also have that impact the world.
In SWG was i just one background character, one unimportant bounty hunters which easy could be the cannon fodder in the Star wars movies, it was part of why i loved SWG.
What you're looking for is a single player rpg, because the very nature of multiplayer takes away your three points in the cast majority of games let alone MMOs. The need to cater to varying levels, new/old players, maintaining a cohesive world state, consistency in quest giving and keeping a uniform world without requiring RNG (to randomize quest/item location etc) holds back the sense of challenge and discovery. Maybe when the procedurally generated tech reaches the point where it can create compelling story lines, we'll actually start to regain that "a whole new world" feeling.
To add to this: linear quest/storylines that you're automatically put onto from the beginning of the game kinda suck. They don't give any room to explore and make decisions on your own. You're just left doing task A, B, C as instructed, which creates a similar "chosen one" feeling. You didn't choose to do this quest line, you were chosen to do it.
Hey where did you read that warhammer 40k story at 13:18? It sounds interesting and id like to read it
I would like to know that as well.
I thought these "Chosen One" tropes in MMOs is because it's for the single player story? Like in Star Wars the Old Republic, lore and story wise it's always been just one Hero of Tython (Jedi Knight), just one Darth Imperious (Sith Inquisitor) etc. Just because it's in a mmo with a bunch of people, doesn't mean simultaneously there's multiple Heroes of Tython, they gotta make a Single Player Story for mmos because crafting a MMO with no "main story" just leaves players wander around, and this can be seen as no narrative. I haven't played it but i've seen ads, Albion Online. The ads always states that "you choose your own path" and there's no linear story of "Chosen Ones" like other mmos, well it's labelled itself as a sandbox mmo, so i guess the "story" is just up to the players for Roleplaying sake.
This topic also links to progression and levelling. If the player can’t defeat a boss at a certain level the he can always grind experience points to achieve the level required for the easy victory. The whole system of rewards and character advancement would have to change if the game were to pose any of the atmosphere with the sort of risk and emotional reward you suggest.
That is quite unlikely in a medium that struggles to keep an audience slowly being taken away by the fortnite's and the destinies and the league of legends and others
An entire game series that did The Chosen One pretty well is The Legend of Zelda because yeah you’re the hero but 1) you’re not the only chosen one, 2) 99% of the adventure is people chasing you across the country/continent to make you prove and better yourself, 3) you’re not fighting alone either Zelda, the king, the sages, the champions etc. are actively helping you or guiding you, 4) Link fails and learns throughout his journey and 5) the conflict and struggle around the triforce is destined but it’s also eternal, so yeah the overall must defeat corrupted power theme (what that entails is unique to the timeline) is the same but the incarnations fighting that battle are still unique and make unique choices especially in the context of the newer and less linear games. There’s a reason people have loved this series for over 30 years ^^
Granted that doesn’t really work for an MMO (although Zelda has had multiplayer titles in the past) because characters in Zelda have unique roles and archetypes in the overarching narrative, which just doesn’t really work on the scale of thousands of players. Chosen One is the hero’s journey on crack which is why it doesn’t work in mass production.
I would argue that in Portal you are not ""Just a test subject"" I would however not call Chell ""The chosen one"" I would more just call her special, her odd's of Defeating GLaDOS where higher than any other test subject as stated on the fandom "According to the psychological profile in her personnel file, Chell is "abnormally stubborn" and refuses to give up, no matter how daunting the challenge. Due to this, she was rejected as a test subject, but Doug Rattmann altered the testing order, having correctly guessed that Chell's extreme tenacity might allow her to defeat GLaDOS".
I've never really had an issue with the Chosen One trope, but part of that may be because I tend to play MMORPGs as if they were single-player games, unless I'm absolutely forced to party up.