Prof Tselengides thus far is teaching everything I was taught by Patristic priests and books. I naively believed that all Orthodox priests and hierarchs believed the same. What a shock to learn otherwise and what a consolation to hear his sane pithy Patristic discourse. Thank you Father Peter and Prof Demetrios!
Oh wow! What was this!! I am not sure if people realize this yet, but this three-part interview series will retrospectively be the best answer (*the* answer) that Church gave to this challenge we're facing. @The Orthodox Ethos Please consider publishing a booklet after Pt. 3 is released. This should be widely circulated not only for the present situation, but for the future challenges we might face.
The problem of course is that we have no access to the Holy Mysteries. The Bishop closes the churches. The priests obey out of fear of losing the antimens and thus....we are left starving and no recourse. Lord have Mercy.
gene myers Rocor churches in the us are generally not doing any liturgical nonsense with respect to the fake plandemic. Please find one. I drove far away from my home and drove past my home parish which is antiochian in order to receive communion and confession in the usual way. There were no masks and no tomfoolery with spoons and whatnot. I did notice a small bottle of hand sanitizer on the floor near the door that I almost didn’t see. Anyway there is hope brother all the bishops and priests have not lost their minds. This is a good chance to find out who the “real deal” is.
The professor confirmed what my family believes about the holy objects of God and how we see the priest's hand as Christ's. Also, it helps knowing that we aren't being disobedient when we disagree with our hierarch's directives. This was very spiritually edifying and gave us great solace. Thank you, Father Peter.
Father, bless! This is what Geronda Paisios at St. Athony's Monastery told me this past week when I visited. He didn't use so many words-it was a short conversation. But he said the same thing- that not venerating the icons by kissing them is iconoclasm, but worse than the original iconoclasm because we think that WE will be contaminated by the icons, whereas in the past they hung the icons high up on the walls so that the faithful wouldn't be the ones to desecrate the ICONS by touching them. And he also said that we don't have to obey the hierarchs if they're not teaching what the Holy Fathers taught. Especially when considering that much of the Orthodox world just watched a documentary about the life of St. Joseph the Hesychast, I'm not about to disregard the words of his spiritual grandchild.
For me as a priest, not venerating icons, kissing the hand, relics, disinfecting holy things is blasphemy. We continue to venerate holy things and receive the Holy Mysteries regularly.
I still am lost on if we are even to commune if a priest is doing the no kissing icons and disinfectant of the spoon. In my area we only have 3 churches to go to and all three are doing this. What does one do? I want to stay in the church...but I also don’t want to be guilty of participating in Something sinful.
We must never participate in a blasphemous stance, nor appear to abide with and agree to a stance which is an expression of faithlessness in the Grace of God in His temple.
Thank you for your reply, the faithful are in need of this kind of detail. So I want to Clair if. So God will not condemn us for not partaking in communion because we won’t participate with priests who have compromised even if it’s a long time before we receive again? Also, would we have to see a priest openly repent and turn from this before we see him again? What about confession? I’m sorry for pepppering with questions but some of us are stranded on an orthodox island with no one to guide. Some are accusing me of leaving the church because I’m so scandalized with the new practice. Technically wouldnt it be the priest who put himself outside the church by compromising and not the lay person? Again thank you for you help to us who have been shut out of the church and marginalized by our community.
Thank you for sharing what Abott Pasios said, he definitely is a man of few words! Just the other day I was hoping to hear what he would say, thank God that we have guardians of Holy Tradition, I am so sad that almost all Orthodox are not remotely upset or disturbed by these blasphemous innovations, a new "Iconoclasm" a Vatican 2 in the Orthodox Church! I have no Church now to go too, they have all followed the "Spirit of Antichrist". I will remain Orthodox because The Church is in essence, incorrubitble, pure, holy and undefiled. God will preserve a remnant until the last day! May God preserve and strengthen us for these difficult times ahead!
"Obey God, not man." Amen! Thank you Our Lord for giving us, again, in these dark times clear guidance. Thank you God for giving us father Peter and professor Demetrios, who truly deserve their diplomas, and not only diplomas that this world often gives to those who are not even worthy of the earthly glory, but who are actually worthy of receiving Your diplomas of acquiring and preserving pure faith so they can give us 'crystal pure water' to 'drink' in these spiritually poisoning times. The Boundaries of Truth. I have received today such an important reminder. Glory to God for everything.
I have been eagerly awaiting this! His is a necessary instruction, especially in light of the present situation. Thanks be to God! I appreciate the work you do for the people of God, father.
Amazing video. True guidance at last. Thank you. We feel we have nowhere to turn since our Hierarchs have seemingly conspired unanimously to foist this REFORMATION upon us. We need help and the grace of the Sacraments......a total information vacuum is upon us. I for one would love to publicly kiss an icon in the Church and see what will ensue. Lord have mercy!
Constantinos Cachimpanis indeed my friend. Can we be surprised that in this most crucial of moments when we are in the last days our shepherds would turn out to be hired hands? Have they not compromised on so many things from the calendar to baptism and reception into the Church, female altar servers, ecumenism, unequally yoked marriages....etc. If they could compromise on the smaller things how much easier it is to compromise the 1st commandment and worship a virus. A number of saints spoke about the hierarchy falling away in the last days. There may be one or two left (as in Belarus) but this is truly a mass apostasy. “Forsake not the gathering together of yourselves, as is the manner of some, BUT SO MUCH THE MORE AS YOU SEE THE DAY APPROACHING.”
Faith in God is the key of healing, health and salvation of our body and soul. Our protection, shield and umbrella is the blood of Christ. Faith and the blood of Christ have been my weapons against this time of health crisis. Thanks for sharing this interview. God bless you all 🙏☦️
Thank you father Peter and dr. Demetrios! The very confusion youre discussing has been tearing my soul apart because of the inner contradiction it creates. May Christ our God help us!
So many are finding nourishment from your podcast and interviews. While I caution all of us to be careful not to distance ourselves from other Orthodox, and so break unity, I also see that the concerns expressed in this interview are valid and worth praying through. Unity can’t be the supreme goal, for then we are very prone to become ecumenists. But a zeal for Truth not according to knowledge leads to sectarian schismatics. Truth and Love. This is a challenging time. Let us strive for unity in Christ through a truly Orthodox ethos!
Well said. Avoid the extremes always. Forge the ROYAL PATH. The enemy gives two bad choices always and acts as if there are no other choices. The third choice, the third way, is the Way of Christ - the path which is possible with God but impossible with (faithless) men.
Such a breathe of fresh air in this stagnant place which is sadly enforced on all of us at the very moment... 😔 May all who have ears listen! May our Lord bless you Father And thank Professor Tselengides for his abundant patristic knowledge which is true food to our souls. We in Australia love your podcasts and await more to help us through these challenging days... We will hold dear these words of counsel...❤️ thank you 🙏 ☦️ ICXC NIKA ☦️
Thank you, Father, & Professor Demetrios. May the Lord reward you, guide us clearly in the darkness enveloping the world, & save us all, even now, in the midst of general apostasy.
I Wil never,end no one can make me to do different ,than i did all my life i fear only the Holy Lord, no men ! I will, venerate the Holy icons,take antidoro from the hands of the priest,and definitely received the Holy Communion ,the proper way,don't care if a lepper person goes before me , i will go last I believe that HOLLY COMMUNION ,is the BOBY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST , end No harm Will be cone of IT , but internal LIFE AMHN!
Thank you father. Sounds like we're gonna have to become funambulists! Lord help us overcome fear and trust Him to guide us, and may He give us humility and discernment as we walk on this scary tight rope! 🙏
This series is such a blessing, Father. I had been struggling with despondency upon realizing that the Orthodox Church has basically declared that the icons, the priest's hand, the spoon, the chalice, are all vectors not for grace but for disease. Even if they get over their Covid garbage someday, I just don't feel like ever going to their churches again since these guys have essentially declared them fake. I understand they are wrong, but what to do about it?
If you lived in the fourth century, what we call now the “golden age” of the church, when most bishops were Arians and there were but a few orthodox bishops here and there, and they were emperors for decades who persecuted the Orthodox, would you give up on the church (=Christ) or would you run to the Orthodox who were standing and confessing?
@@OrthodoxEthos This problem and its sister problem ecumenism do seem comparable to when Arianism dominated the Church. I've often wondered what the laity did when virtually all the bishops had folded like cheap suits and were either Arian heretics or else exiled. Did lay people find priests not following their bishop's heresy? My understanding was that great numbers of laity were chrismated to be brought back into the rightly-believing Orthodox Church once the Arian crack-pots were finally defeated. Does that imply the laity had been outside of salvation while following priests with a bad bishop? If you can recommend reading on this topic I would greatly appreciate. Thanking our Lord Jesus Christ for you, Father Peter.
So sad the OCA Priest in my area (Virginia) told me that his Bishop ordered churches closed because if the Priests got sick & died there would be no one to take their places. (Is that news to God? No) He told me Catechumens can't come at any rate until the churches are fully opened because we need to leave room for communicants. As of today up to 21 people (communicants) may attend by sign up only. Otherwise we can watch it on Facebook. I have never felt so utterly unwelcome anywhere than I do in this Church. Lord have mercy.
God bless you, Gigi! I fear for our catechumens now. My friend is a catechumen and she was deeply grieved by the decisions taken in American regarding the closure of temples, etc. But if you (as a catechumen) persist in the Faith, you will outshine some of us who are baptized! I was a catechumen before the Ukrainian schism and before all this obviously, so I didn't have to contend with these controversies when I was just starting to learn about the Faith. But this crisis is helping to clarify various matters for me too, so thank God. If you need someone to talk to Gigi, feel free to message me. There must be a messaging function on here somewhere.
I am with you on this and very much in sympathy. In my diocese of the OCA, the bishop threatened with ecclesiastical sanctions (excommunication) any group of people who assembled together out side of the Church structure to pray in groups. This is rather pathetic since it was he who effectively excommunicated the laity in his diocese and then threatens "double excommunication" if people meet clandestinely in groups of Orthodox. In effect, our Hierarchs are in the process of foisting a REFORMATION on the whole Church in North America and sadly elsewhere as well. I am so saddened by this since I have always been very loyal to all the Bishops in a spirit of humility and obedience. But, now they have long exceeded their GOD GIVEN authority and have exalted themselves above Christ. What to do? I must confess, I don't rightly know. How can this be made right before the eyes of God? That is for greater theological minds. BUT, COOPERATE WE CANNOT lest we too make shipwrecks of our salvation. Resist by staying in ceaseless prayer and repentance. There must also be full accountability on the part of the clergy. We may have to learn how to pray at home for a very long time.
Constantinos Cachimpanis Thank you. Are you in Diocese of the South? Your Bishop sounds like ours. God help us. I am going to try to attend a Western Rite Liturgy (ROCOR) tomorrow. I emailed the Priest to ask if it was ok but haven't heard back yet. God bless and thanks.
The Decree of the Seventh Oecumenical Council reads: “We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence (aspasmon kai timhtikhn proskunh-sin), not indeed that true worship of faith (latreian>) which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented. For thus the teaching of our holy Fathers, that is the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other hath received the Gospel, is strengthened. Thus we follow Paul, who spake in Christ, and the whole divine Apostolic company and the holy Fathers, holding fast the traditions which we have received. So we sing prophetically the triumphal hymns of the Church, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Rejoice and be glad with all thy heart. The Lord hath taken away from thee the oppression of thy adversaries; thou art redeemed from the hand of thine enemies. The Lord is a King in the midst of thee; thou shalt not see evil any more, and peace be unto thee forever." Those, therefore who dare to think or teach otherwise, or as wicked heretics to spurn the traditions of the Church and to invent some novelty, or else to reject some of those things which the Church hath received (e.g., the Book of the Gospels, or the image of the cross, or the pictorial icons, or the holy reliques of a martyr), or evilly and sharply to devise anything subversive of the lawful traditions of the Catholic Church or to turn to common uses the sacred vessels or the venerable monasteries,[1] if they be Bishops or Clerics, we command that they be deposed; if religious or laics, that they be cut off from communion. [After all had signed, the acclamations began (col. 576).] The holy Synod cried out: So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed. This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. Believing in one God, to be celebrated in Trinity, we salute [προσκυνούμε] the honourable images ! Those who do not so hold, let them be anathema. Those who do not thus think, let them be driven far away from the Church. For we follow the most ancient legislation of the Catholic Church. We keep the laws of the Fathers. We anathematize those who add anything to or take anything away from the Catholic Church. We anathematize the introduced novelty of the revilers of Christians. We salute [= προσκύνησις] the venerable images. We place under anathema those who do not do this. Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about. idols. Anathema to those who do not salute [= προσκυνησις] the holy and venerable images. Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods. Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God. Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols.” Note that the Greek word προσκύνησις denotes veneration of the icons, which cannot mean standing afar off and bowing, but necessarily kissing: πρός, pros (towards) and κυνέω, kyneo ([I] kiss).
How should a catechumen act in all this? As my parish re-opens with limited amount of people, they tell us to don face masks upon entering, do not kiss each other, nor kiss the holy icons, nor the priest's hand. I feel this is very wrong and do not even wish to go. I will allow my spot to be taken by those who can partake in the body and blood of our Savior. I am only a catechumen, not even apart of His body.
This is my exact issue. My church just issued guidelines for the next two months. They included a request to only go to church twice a month, a requirement to wear a face mask, no kissing anything, and an order to not get within two meters of one another, not touch each other, and to not talk to each other. This sounds closer to hell than to heaven to me. Interesting how Professor Tselengides reminds us that satan can be in the temple. Thank you Father Peter for your response! Personally, I only respect the institution of the Church, the dogmatic theology, and the tradition of the Church Fathers even more now. We error; He does not.
Ban Hammer, refusing the courtesy to others that is expressed by covering the face shows poor citizenship unbecoming of Christians. Do you understand that face covering prevents not your own exposure but the exposure of everyone else in the place, by capturing the aerosolized saliva we all breathe out, which carries pathogens? Who told you that covering was a sign of weakness in any regard? At this time of pandemic we Christians must avoid scandalizing our neighbor. I think Fr. Peter feels strongly about this and uses the term very frequently.
I heard lots of wise information, but no wisdom, discernment or heart. These kind of talks is what shaking the faith of many believers, not closing the churches. God is in Charge, and this will pass. I know my Orthodox Faith very well. To be a Christian, we need to love God and others as He loved us, and to live in a state of repentance. This conversation lacked all that. What we truly need at this crazy time, is lots of loving encouragement, and directions to keep our focus, more on God, and less on our gadgets, by praying, reading the Bible, and the lives of the saints. God wants our heats and souls, nothing els. ☦️🕊forever Orthodox 🕊☦️
You do not see impiety or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in the directives to cease venerating icons, relics, and the priest’s hand, or in the introduction of multiple spoons or cleaning the spoons with alcohol?
There are many problems with the piety expressed in the churches. There is no perfect Liturgy while we are in the body. And the body housing the soul and spirit of a man is what the divine services are meant to strengthen and divinize through worship and Sacraments. Yet temporary abstention from some practices is necessary for the bodies of the faithful, lest our worship become a scandal if we show disregard for the unity of the human person and impose an oppositional dualism between the spiritual and physical. Sacraments are means of directly overcoming that dualism, and healing the split by Divine condescension. We must administer them wisely and compassionately. Reason and faith are not opposed. While veneration of sanctifying, sacramentalizing hand of the priest is laudable there is nothing about performing Sacraments that renders any part of the body of a priest immune from hosting viruses. Many of our holy clergy have died from covid. To say it is impious to show concern regarding transmissibility of contagions on surfaces of holy objects like icons and, the glass that protects them from lipstick or the metal riza that covers them is such a stretch of the concept of holiness that it poses a dualistic opposition between faith and reason. This doesn’t strike me as the best Orthodoxy has to offer. The Greek practice of substituting distribution of antidoron for the veneration of the priest’s blessing Cross, out of a misplaced deference to prerogatives of a bishop typical of weak grasp of rubrics, is in itself problematic, since the bread is distributed to communicants as well as non-partakers. If the celebrant himself doesn’t distribute it by his own sacramentalizing hand, it symbolizes generic Christian fellowship and should just be called prosforon, as it is given to all freely.
Reason and Faith are not in opposition when reason follows faith and not the other way round. There is only One Liturgy, a meeting between the Divine and Human.
Prof Tselengides thus far is teaching everything I was taught by Patristic priests and books. I naively believed that all Orthodox priests and hierarchs believed the same. What a shock to learn otherwise and what a consolation to hear his sane pithy Patristic discourse. Thank you Father Peter and Prof Demetrios!
Oh wow! What was this!! I am not sure if people realize this yet, but this three-part interview series will retrospectively be the best answer (*the* answer) that Church gave to this challenge we're facing.
@The Orthodox Ethos Please consider publishing a booklet after Pt. 3 is released. This should be widely circulated not only for the present situation, but for the future challenges we might face.
Absolutely agree!
We need that
The problem of course is that we have no access to the Holy Mysteries. The Bishop closes the churches. The priests obey out of fear of losing the antimens and thus....we are left starving and no recourse. Lord have Mercy.
gene myers Rocor churches in the us are generally not doing any liturgical nonsense with respect to the fake plandemic. Please find one. I drove far away from my home and drove past my home parish which is antiochian in order to receive communion and confession in the usual way. There were no masks and no tomfoolery with spoons and whatnot. I did notice a small bottle of hand sanitizer on the floor near the door that I almost didn’t see. Anyway there is hope brother all the bishops and priests have not lost their minds. This is a good chance to find out who the “real deal” is.
The professor confirmed what my family believes about the holy objects of God and how we see the priest's hand as Christ's. Also, it helps knowing that we aren't being disobedient when we disagree with our hierarch's directives. This was very spiritually edifying and gave us great solace. Thank you, Father Peter.
Father, bless!
This is what Geronda Paisios at St. Athony's Monastery told me this past week when I visited. He didn't use so many words-it was a short conversation. But he said the same thing- that not venerating the icons by kissing them is iconoclasm, but worse than the original iconoclasm because we think that WE will be contaminated by the icons, whereas in the past they hung the icons high up on the walls so that the faithful wouldn't be the ones to desecrate the ICONS by touching them. And he also said that we don't have to obey the hierarchs if they're not teaching what the Holy Fathers taught.
Especially when considering that much of the Orthodox world just watched a documentary about the life of St. Joseph the Hesychast, I'm not about to disregard the words of his spiritual grandchild.
For me as a priest, not venerating icons, kissing the hand, relics, disinfecting holy things is blasphemy. We continue to venerate holy things and receive the Holy Mysteries regularly.
I still am lost on if we are even to commune if a priest is doing the no kissing icons and disinfectant of the spoon. In my area we only have 3 churches to go to and all three are doing this. What does one do? I want to stay in the church...but I also don’t want to be guilty of participating in Something sinful.
We must never participate in a blasphemous stance, nor appear to abide with and agree to a stance which is an expression of faithlessness in the Grace of God in His temple.
Thank you for your reply, the faithful are in need of this kind of detail. So I want to Clair if. So God will not condemn us for not partaking in communion because we won’t participate with priests who have compromised even if it’s a long time before we receive again? Also, would we have to see a priest openly repent and turn from this before we see him again? What about confession? I’m sorry for pepppering with questions but some of us are stranded on an orthodox island with no one to guide. Some are accusing me of leaving the church because I’m so scandalized with the new practice. Technically wouldnt it be the priest who put himself outside the church by compromising and not the lay person? Again thank you for you help to us who have been shut out of the church and marginalized by our community.
Thank you for sharing what Abott Pasios said, he definitely is a man of few words! Just the other day I was hoping to hear what he would say, thank God that we have guardians of Holy Tradition, I am so sad that almost all Orthodox are not remotely upset or disturbed by these blasphemous innovations, a new "Iconoclasm" a Vatican 2 in the Orthodox Church! I have no Church now to go too, they have all followed the "Spirit of Antichrist". I will remain Orthodox because The Church is in essence, incorrubitble, pure, holy and undefiled. God will preserve a remnant until the last day! May God preserve and strengthen us for these difficult times ahead!
"Obey God, not man." Amen! Thank you Our Lord for giving us, again, in these dark times clear guidance. Thank you God for giving us father Peter and professor Demetrios, who truly deserve their diplomas, and not only diplomas that this world often gives to those who are not even worthy of the earthly glory, but who are actually worthy of receiving Your diplomas of acquiring and preserving pure faith so they can give us 'crystal pure water' to 'drink' in these spiritually poisoning times.
The Boundaries of Truth. I have received today such an important reminder. Glory to God for everything.
Excellent! I will share this with others to save more souls! Such clarity in this hazy, obscure and manipulative new "Christian" rules!
I have been eagerly awaiting this! His is a necessary instruction, especially in light of the present situation. Thanks be to God! I appreciate the work you do for the people of God, father.
Amazing video. True guidance at last. Thank you. We feel we have nowhere to turn since our Hierarchs have seemingly conspired unanimously to foist this REFORMATION upon us. We need help and the grace of the Sacraments......a total information vacuum is upon us. I for one would love to publicly kiss an icon in the Church and see what will ensue. Lord have mercy!
Constantinos Cachimpanis indeed my friend. Can we be surprised that in this most crucial of moments when we are in the last days our shepherds would turn out to be hired hands? Have they not compromised on so many things from the calendar to baptism and reception into the Church, female altar servers, ecumenism, unequally yoked marriages....etc. If they could compromise on the smaller things how much easier it is to compromise the 1st commandment and worship a virus. A number of saints spoke about the hierarchy falling away in the last days. There may be one or two left (as in Belarus) but this is truly a mass apostasy. “Forsake not the gathering together of yourselves, as is the manner of some, BUT SO MUCH THE MORE AS YOU SEE THE DAY APPROACHING.”
Faith in God is the key of healing, health and salvation of our body and soul. Our protection, shield and umbrella is the blood of Christ. Faith and the blood of Christ have been my weapons against this time of health crisis. Thanks for sharing this interview. God bless you all 🙏☦️
Thank you father Peter and dr. Demetrios! The very confusion youre discussing has been tearing my soul apart because of the inner contradiction it creates. May Christ our God help us!
So many are finding nourishment from your podcast and interviews. While I caution all of us to be careful not to distance ourselves from other Orthodox, and so break unity, I also see that the concerns expressed in this interview are valid and worth praying through. Unity can’t be the supreme goal, for then we are very prone to become ecumenists. But a zeal for Truth not according to knowledge leads to sectarian schismatics. Truth and Love. This is a challenging time. Let us strive for unity in Christ through a truly Orthodox ethos!
Well said. Avoid the extremes always. Forge the ROYAL PATH. The enemy gives two bad choices always and acts as if there are no other choices. The third choice, the third way, is the Way of Christ - the path which is possible with God but impossible with (faithless) men.
Such a breathe of fresh air in this stagnant place which is sadly enforced on all of us at the very moment... 😔
May all who have ears listen!
May our Lord bless you Father
And thank Professor Tselengides for his abundant patristic knowledge which is true food to our souls.
We in Australia love your podcasts and await more to help us through these challenging days...
We will hold dear these words of counsel...❤️ thank you 🙏
☦️ ICXC NIKA ☦️
Thank you, Father, & Professor Demetrios. May the Lord reward you, guide us clearly in the darkness enveloping the world, & save us all, even now, in the midst of general apostasy.
Amin
Amin
Amin ☦️☦️☦️😔‼️
Thank you father, watching right now.
Once again, a treasure to those of us in the world struggling to be faithful. I am very grateful to both Fr. Peter and Prof. Tselengides.
Love your work Fr
This gives a lot of spiritual clarity. Thank you.
Thank you Father. God bless
Thank you. Deeply grateful for your talks
Part 2 is as good a Part 1!!! Excellent presentation of the Truth!!! God bless!!!
I Wil never,end no one can make me to do different ,than i did all my life
i fear only the Holy Lord, no men !
I will, venerate the Holy icons,take antidoro from the hands of the priest,and definitely received the Holy Communion ,the proper way,don't care if a lepper person goes before me , i will go last
I believe that HOLLY COMMUNION ,is the BOBY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST , end No harm Will be cone of IT , but internal LIFE
AMHN!
THANK YOU! May God fully reward you here on this earthly life and in Heaven.
I look forward to Part 3. Thank you and God bless you both.
Thank you father. Sounds like we're gonna have to become funambulists! Lord help us overcome fear and trust Him to guide us, and may He give us humility and discernment as we walk on this scary tight rope! 🙏
Super. Top quality.
Thank you so much ! God bless you!
This series is such a blessing, Father. I had been struggling with despondency upon realizing that the Orthodox Church has basically declared that the icons, the priest's hand, the spoon, the chalice, are all vectors not for grace but for disease. Even if they get over their Covid garbage someday, I just don't feel like ever going to their churches again since these guys have essentially declared them fake. I understand they are wrong, but what to do about it?
If you lived in the fourth century, what we call now the “golden age” of the church, when most bishops were Arians and there were but a few orthodox bishops here and there, and they were emperors for decades who persecuted the Orthodox, would you give up on the church (=Christ) or would you run to the Orthodox who were standing and confessing?
@@OrthodoxEthos This problem and its sister problem ecumenism do seem comparable to when Arianism dominated the Church. I've often wondered what the laity did when virtually all the bishops had folded like cheap suits and were either Arian heretics or else exiled. Did lay people find priests not following their bishop's heresy? My understanding was that great numbers of laity were chrismated to be brought back into the rightly-believing Orthodox Church once the Arian crack-pots were finally defeated. Does that imply the laity had been outside of salvation while following priests with a bad bishop? If you can recommend reading on this topic I would greatly appreciate. Thanking our Lord Jesus Christ for you, Father Peter.
So sad the OCA Priest in my area (Virginia) told me that his Bishop ordered churches closed because if the Priests got sick & died there would be no one to take their places. (Is that news to God? No) He told me Catechumens can't come at any rate until the churches are fully opened because we need to leave room for communicants. As of today up to 21 people (communicants) may attend by sign up only. Otherwise we can watch it on Facebook. I have never felt so utterly unwelcome anywhere than I do in this Church. Lord have mercy.
God bless you, Gigi! I fear for our catechumens now. My friend is a catechumen and she was deeply grieved by the decisions taken in American regarding the closure of temples, etc. But if you (as a catechumen) persist in the Faith, you will outshine some of us who are baptized! I was a catechumen before the Ukrainian schism and before all this obviously, so I didn't have to contend with these controversies when I was just starting to learn about the Faith. But this crisis is helping to clarify various matters for me too, so thank God.
If you need someone to talk to Gigi, feel free to message me. There must be a messaging function on here somewhere.
I am with you on this and very much in sympathy. In my diocese of the OCA, the bishop threatened with ecclesiastical sanctions (excommunication) any group of people who assembled together out side of the Church structure to pray in groups. This is rather pathetic since it was he who effectively excommunicated the laity in his diocese and then threatens "double excommunication" if people meet clandestinely in groups of Orthodox. In effect, our Hierarchs are in the process of foisting a REFORMATION on the whole Church in North America and sadly elsewhere as well. I am so saddened by this since I have always been very loyal to all the Bishops in a spirit of humility and obedience. But, now they have long exceeded their GOD GIVEN authority and have exalted themselves above Christ. What to do? I must confess, I don't rightly know. How can this be made right before the eyes of God? That is for greater theological minds. BUT, COOPERATE WE CANNOT lest we too make shipwrecks of our salvation. Resist by staying in ceaseless prayer and repentance. There must also be full accountability on the part of the clergy. We may have to learn how to pray at home for a very long time.
@@ortho-g9826 I'm in the OCA too. I hadn't heard this. Perhaps we are in different dioceses.
Ella K You are very kind, and I appreciate your encouragement. Thank you! God bless you. 😇
Constantinos Cachimpanis Thank you. Are you in Diocese of the South? Your Bishop sounds like ours. God help us. I am going to try to attend a Western Rite Liturgy (ROCOR) tomorrow. I emailed the Priest to ask if it was ok but haven't heard back yet. God bless and thanks.
Does anyone know the specific cannons/anathemas from the counsels that regard the necessity of veneration of icons?
The Decree of the Seventh Oecumenical Council reads:
“We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence (aspasmon kai timhtikhn proskunh-sin), not indeed that true worship of faith (latreian>) which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented. For thus the teaching of our holy Fathers, that is the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other hath received the Gospel, is strengthened. Thus we follow Paul, who spake in Christ, and the whole divine Apostolic company and the holy Fathers, holding fast the traditions which we have received. So we sing prophetically the triumphal hymns of the Church, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Rejoice and be glad with all thy heart. The Lord hath taken away from thee the oppression of thy adversaries; thou art redeemed from the hand of thine enemies. The Lord is a King in the midst of thee; thou shalt not see evil any more, and peace be unto thee forever."
Those, therefore who dare to think or teach otherwise, or as wicked heretics to spurn the traditions of the Church and to invent some novelty, or else to reject some of those things which the Church hath received (e.g., the Book of the Gospels, or the image of the cross, or the pictorial icons, or the holy reliques of a martyr), or evilly and sharply to devise anything subversive of the lawful traditions of the Catholic Church or to turn to common uses the sacred vessels or the venerable monasteries,[1] if they be Bishops or Clerics, we command that they be deposed; if religious or laics, that they be cut off from communion.
[After all had signed, the acclamations began (col. 576).]
The holy Synod cried out: So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed. This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. Believing in one God, to be celebrated in Trinity, we salute [προσκυνούμε] the honourable images ! Those who do not so hold, let them be anathema. Those who do not thus think, let them be driven far away from the Church. For we follow the most ancient legislation of the Catholic Church. We keep the laws of the Fathers. We anathematize those who add anything to or take anything away from the Catholic Church. We anathematize the introduced novelty of the revilers of Christians. We salute [= προσκύνησις] the venerable images. We place under anathema those who do not do this. Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about. idols. Anathema to those who do not salute [= προσκυνησις] the holy and venerable images. Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods. Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God. Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols.”
Note that the Greek word προσκύνησις denotes veneration of the icons, which cannot mean standing afar off and bowing, but necessarily kissing: πρός, pros (towards) and κυνέω, kyneo ([I] kiss).
What is the chant at the beginning and the end, father?
It’s the Makarismi in the Divine Liturgy done by the Holy Fathers of Vatopedi. I got the album from iTunes. Christ is risen!
How should a catechumen act in all this? As my parish re-opens with limited amount of people, they tell us to don face masks upon entering, do not kiss each other, nor kiss the holy icons, nor the priest's hand. I feel this is very wrong and do not even wish to go. I will allow my spot to be taken by those who can partake in the body and blood of our Savior. I am only a catechumen, not even apart of His body.
Yes. This is a good, humble stance, which most importantly preserves your conscience from being stepped upon. Be patient and wait (pray) on the Lord.
@@OrthodoxEthos Thank you Father. That is very encouraging.
This is my exact issue. My church just issued guidelines for the next two months. They included a request to only go to church twice a month, a requirement to wear a face mask, no kissing anything, and an order to not get within two meters of one another, not touch each other, and to not talk to each other. This sounds closer to hell than to heaven to me. Interesting how Professor Tselengides reminds us that satan can be in the temple.
Thank you Father Peter for your response!
Personally, I only respect the institution of the Church, the dogmatic theology, and the tradition of the Church Fathers even more now. We error; He does not.
@@hrkellem2848 Absolutely! I'm in the GOA and the same nonsense is being promoted!
Ban Hammer, refusing the courtesy to others that is expressed by covering the face shows poor citizenship unbecoming of Christians. Do you understand that face covering prevents not your own exposure but the exposure of everyone else in the place, by capturing the aerosolized saliva we all breathe out, which carries pathogens? Who told you that covering was a sign of weakness in any regard? At this time of pandemic we Christians must avoid scandalizing our neighbor. I think Fr. Peter feels strongly about this and uses the term very frequently.
🕊... ❤
I heard lots of wise information, but no wisdom, discernment or heart. These kind of talks is what shaking the faith of many believers, not closing the churches. God is in Charge, and this will pass. I know my Orthodox Faith very well. To be a Christian, we need to love God and others as He loved us, and to live in a state of repentance. This conversation lacked all that. What we truly need at this crazy time, is lots of loving encouragement, and directions to keep our focus, more on God, and less on our gadgets, by praying, reading the Bible, and the lives of the saints. God wants our heats and souls, nothing els.
☦️🕊forever Orthodox 🕊☦️
You do not see impiety or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in the directives to cease venerating icons, relics, and the priest’s hand, or in the introduction of multiple spoons or cleaning the spoons with alcohol?
There are many problems with the piety expressed in the churches. There is no perfect Liturgy while we are in the body. And the body housing the soul and spirit of a man is what the divine services are meant to strengthen and divinize through worship and Sacraments. Yet temporary abstention from some practices is necessary for the bodies of the faithful, lest our worship become a scandal if we show disregard for the unity of the human person and impose an oppositional dualism between the spiritual and physical. Sacraments are means of directly overcoming that dualism, and healing the split by Divine condescension. We must administer them wisely and compassionately. Reason and faith are not opposed.
While veneration of sanctifying, sacramentalizing hand of the priest is laudable there is nothing about performing Sacraments that renders any part of the body of a priest immune from hosting viruses. Many of our holy clergy have died from covid. To say it is impious to show concern regarding transmissibility of contagions on surfaces of holy objects like icons and, the glass that protects them from lipstick or the metal riza that covers them is such a stretch of the concept of holiness that it poses a dualistic opposition between faith and reason. This doesn’t strike me as the best Orthodoxy has to offer.
The Greek practice of substituting distribution of antidoron for the veneration of the priest’s blessing Cross, out of a misplaced deference to prerogatives of a bishop typical of weak grasp of rubrics, is in itself problematic, since the bread is distributed to communicants as well as non-partakers. If the celebrant himself doesn’t distribute it by his own sacramentalizing hand, it symbolizes generic Christian fellowship and should just be called prosforon, as it is given to all freely.
Reason and Faith are not in opposition when reason follows faith and not the other way round. There is only One Liturgy, a meeting between the Divine and Human.