For those of you asking "why not fix the lock to work?" Here is a link to a good article on how to do just that. americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.msg607217#msg607217 Look at it. Realize the lock being "fixed" is considered a "custom" lock. Better than the average production lock. Then ask if you have the tools, skill, and knowledge to do that work.
Two words- Jim Kibler. I’m a brand new shooter and can’t afford a custom gun, at least right now in my life but I could save up for a USA made kit from Kibler which would be at the upper end of a finished import. It’s been 100% reliable. Thanks for the great videos sir
Kibler kits are good quality. A rifle does not need fancy decorations to shoot straight and win events. However, it is nice to take the homecoming queen to the prom.
I agree with some of whats being said but......I am afraid this information could discourage a lot of new and up and coming shooters and that i am afraid will kill the sport. I would love to have a custom flint lock but unfortunately for a lot of us life gets in the way and cannot afford the price of these rifles. These affordable imports get people interested and that's a good thing. From there they can decide if they want to go farther by buying a better quality rifle or are happy with what they have. If not for my Traditions rifle i would never got interested in muzzle loaders because that was all i could afford at the time.
I own 5 flintlocks that are imported and have killed deer with all 5 of them.I have one flintlock that i built myself all parts made in the U.S.A its the southern longrifle and too me it is no better than the imported ones.If the imported rifles are that bad why do people keep buying them.Something here don't line up.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 you are too right. I broke two muzzleloaders. I couldn’t stand them anymore. I’m only now 6 years later getting back to them.
@@evandaire1449 Well you heard the man if it isn't custom made with all the best parts like the rifle he so proudly owns and brags on, then your back to square one, so Get ready to start breaking again! lol
Excellent video, my Dad was about to turn his Traditions Flintlock Kentucky Rifle into a wall hanger, because he could never get a reliable shot out of it, well that was until we started using real black powder. Now Dad's rifles fires on the first strike every single time without fail and he loves it again. I cannot argue with you on the quality of parts, you truly get what you pay for.
Many have been told and shown, they just don't want to accept it. But I don't mind, when they finally realize it, they give me half used cans of pyrodex which we shoot in our noise making cannons. : )
Thanks for an informative video. I, too, must be a flintlock lottery winner. I have both Thompson Center and Pedersoli factory made flinters that are quite reliable, and have been for years. Your point about maintenance is paramount to good performance. So is consistency and proper flint alignment. Lastly, I never fill the pan over 1/2 full. This gives me a good flash, less fouling, and a bit faster lock time. The pan being full only to near the top of the vent means that the first bit of ignition is going in the vent immediately.
I use a popular 54 cal flint. I bought it used and was ready to give it away. An old timer spent a few hours with me and taught me how to load both the barrel and pan. In 30 years, I have never had any of the issues you showed. I have killed more than my share of (legal) deer.
You are one of the lucky ones. Manny of us, unfortunately, are not so lucky and experience exactly what is discussed in this video. It happened to me with both my early 90s made in Spain Traditions Heritage Hawken and my recently purchased Pedersoli hunter flintlock.
There are major differences in the grades of mass produced flinters also. Lyman GPR vs Traditions anything. The Lymans are NOT as fast as a custom, but they can be reliable. My GPR was the gateway drug to a custom to a builder where I really did win the lottery. I think I have the last one he made.
I have a Lyman great plains, 50cal flinter. I've had that gun for 30 some years and it has never failed on me, fast lock time and extremely accurate. I believe they were made in Italy. Perhaps I got lucky with that production non custom model.
I have a 2017 GPR in .54, made by Investarms, Italy, and I've only gotten one flash in the pan. I know that duelist1954 has noted problems with Pedersoli's flash hole bring mis-aligned. So, I do agree somewhat with this argument. For those with Traditions flinters, you can get a drop-in lock replacement.
I had an old CVA made in Spain, probably from the 70's , sadly it was lost to me in a burglary. But it was a sure fire rifle, I never once had a misfire. It was a reproduction 45 caliber Kentucky style rifle, and probably was a kit that someone had put together because it wasn't quite 100% perfect but probably about as good as I would have done myself. I loved that rifle and would like to have an interaction with whoever committed that burglary because I now have some black powder pistols that are designed for such an occasion.
Excellent video. I had this very same experience and it almost killed my enthusiasm for shooting traditional muzzleloaders. I did extensive research and taught myself how to shoot, but after some initial success, which was extremely satisfying, I started encountering these very same issues with my Traditions Hawken and Pedersolli flintlock. Thank you for bringing light to this systemic problem in the traditional black powder firearm industry. The mass produced guns are good to learn on and to determine whether the sport is for you, but a custom rifle is the way to go for any serious shooting and hunting.
Just got a cap lock 45 cal cva mountain pistol, I assume it was a kit from the 70s or 80s. Not positive. One of my favorites of all of my weaponry, so fun to shoot. When I'm a bit more seasoned I'll definitely get some flintlocks.
I have a Thompson Center Pennsylvania Hunter. Seems like a quality gun. I love the balance and feel of it. Had to replace the frizen with a hardened one, because it seems the originals are too soft. Most problems I have experienced with it are largely due to my errors- cleaning, cheap flints,etc. Would love to afford a custom gun, but don’t have that kinda scratch. Good video. Always something more to learn! Thank you👍🇺🇸❤️
I graduated from trials and tribulations to straight black powder, a good flint, and loading habits that allow fast ignition. My rifle is a Pennsylvania Hunter, not the best lock but pretty reliable indeed, so I can't complain. Thanks for the informative videos! If I ever buy that .54 it'll have a good lock I promise!!
I got into BP 3 years ago. I now have 3 rifles & 3 pistols but no flintlocks. Been tempted to get an import , but now I'm going to keep saving an get a good one. Thanks for this video , lots of good info.
I have a traditions ky rifle. I had a lot of fun with it and thats how I learned. I now have an investarms hawken in flintlock that i built as a kit. I love it! I also put on modern custom sights that gives it more of a sportsman rifle feel. It seems that once you go higher on the quality the less likely you are to go any less. Next one I'll go for is a custom flintlock. I got a shop near me that sells good ones. Great video and well informative. I enjoyed listening to your input.
Great information for new folks. I wanted a flintlock really badly & after reading everything I could, I went with a builder, although not well known, rather than an import. My Lehigh Valley-inspired rifle has a Larry Zorn/Albrecht lock that is very fast & has worked flawlessly, albeit for a price. It quickly went to my favorite rifle, so much so that I've moved away from modern weapons & have bought solely BP guns the past 2 years. I want to find a quality flint pistol to go with it but that has proven difficult (ie expensive) to find. My collection of BP revolvers has grown quickly. A side note, I think the wood is better on quality builds vs imports as well. Builder rifles are nothing short of impressive works of art, as yours is too.
Your informational video's are very well put together, this is the second one I have watched. I used to compete in MLAIC competitions with originals shotguns. My flintlock was a Mortimer and when I purchased it it would not work properly (which I could see and that's why I got it cheep)! The problem was it had been converted to percussion and then back again to flint. The problem was the position of the touch hole, it was TOO LOW and the ignition was like a fuse. I installed a "White Lightning" touch hole in the correct position and problem solved. Because I practised so much, I used a lot of powder, so I sieved my powder, then used the finer powder that fell out of the sieve as priming powder, but I also bought Swiss priming powder for competitions. This fine powder can be a problem if left in the main charge because is reduces the air around the powder kernels and slows the flash down. I was surprised you didn't mention roller frizzen’s! Yet again, your presentation on muzzle loading has to be about one of the best I have watched, really good and sound information. THANX.
You are right about the finer powder in the main charge slowing ignition. My mentor always sieved his powders. He shot State and National competitions. I have noticed faster ignition with 2-f powder as the main charge rather than 3-f in flintlocks. I believe that's because of extra air space between kernels. I am still undecided about rollers on the frizzen. I am not yet convinced that those actually make the lock faster. Thanks for your comments!
If you look at the later finner flintlocks being made back then, they are all roller. The stricking position on the frizzen is important too, I was told 3/4 of the way up! Not the top or mid way but 3/4. My 14ga Mortimer flinter was just great; It would even go off upside down and in the wet too. Keep up with your video's as they will be very useful to those just starting and the intermediate shooter.
Thanks for the informative video. I've never owned an import flintlock but never heard good things about them. I've only begun with flintlocks about 5 year ago building a .50 southern rifle. I was initially doubtful of flintlock reliability but on first shooting it, the Siler lock was and has been flawless.
I have never seen an imported flintlock used in any competition at any level. But percussion rifles, I would say half or more use imports. I have won with them and lost to them.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I honestly don't think it's mass production that's causing the, hell, based upon those plug shots, I can't even call it quality control issues, but instead ignoring quality overall. For crying out loud, we mass produce microscopes for labs without problems and we have children's toy microscopes that reflect the same lack of quality issues and fade from the market relatively quickly. Of course, more microscopes are bought for kids than flintlocks are bought overall, so fading away unfortunately doesn't happen. If I were to mass produce flintlocks, if I found a barrel where the plug was obstructing the touch hole, someone would be wearing that barrel around their head like hat! Quality and safety go hand in hand and if it's worth making, it's worth making it safe and properly. Springs and well, the entire lock assembly, cutting corners for cost. :/ Still, making that right would be about a day of cussing over a forge... * *Patton style cussing, not any of that pansy Navy kind of cussing!
Liked the video, but I have to add my 2 cents... I recently fired about 50 shots from my Pedersoli Brown Bess without a single malfunction - didn't hit my steel target every time, but that's another story! Similarly, I put about 40 rounds through my Pedersoli Blue Ridge with nary a problem - hit the steel almost every time with this one! Both locks function great, but I do wipe the flint with alcohol about every 10 - 15 shots and ensure a clear touch hole with every shot.
Congratulations! I hope those guns continue to work for you. My opinion on Pedersoli; If you must have an imported gun, those are probably your best option. The only Pedersoli I own is a Charles Moore percussion pistol which needed repairs to correct a tang that would not fit the hooked breach and misaligned barrel / tang inletting due to that problem. I can't recommend a product which needs repairs to correct factory mistakes right out of the box. And those needed repairs were beyond the skills of most shooters. Yes, I got a bad one off their assembly line which quality control missed. Apparently, you were more fortunate. The higher priced Pedersoli guns; For just a little bit more money you can purchase a custom built gun with better parts and it will be historically correct. If one can afford the top end Pedersoli guns he can afford a custom built gun. I have no interest in what type of gun someone else wants. I won't criticize anyone who participates in rendezvous and shooting matches because of their equipment. I am not a "stitch counter". As long as one is safe, and showing effort to fit into the time period they are welcome at my camp. I offer my opinions / experience for the benefit of others. Knowledge and instruction on traditional muzzleloading is not easy to research. My propose is to make that more easily accessible. Thank you for your comments.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I have a Lyman great plains. It's getting the replacement lock. I've always shot Siler locks. That spring set up on the Lyman is just ridiculous. It works most of the time, and not consistently. Traditions or cva tbey need to be plasma cut up and thrown away. I've tried all I know and you still can't can't them to work well enough to bother with of them. Hence I'm getting the L n R replacement for the Lyman. Personally I dig tbe Siler golden Era. Roller bearing on the Frizzen, as if the Siler large lock isn't fast enough the golden Era is wicker fast. Flintlock aren't unreliable. People buy junk. Problem is, I need a basic swamped Colerain 50 cal cast off barn gun with a Siler lock. Find me a decent one made for under 3k! I had to sell my good stuff. So I think the Lyman with the l n r lock should be ok. It shoots ok, and it goes off. Tbe delay is not acceptable. And it does take a bit too much priming powder to go off. Versus a quality lock which takes a smidgen to touch off. It'll get me through two years until I get a proper barn gun. I'm not concerned with beauty, I just need a cherry stocked (I lived where black cherry is logged) silver golden Era lock, cast off stock, double set triggers, Colerain (I know Scott, so no one will convince me to go Rice they're nice too but I buy from those I know) and perhaps a 38 inch barrel or 40 inch barrel. We hunt hard. So why go over the top beauty wise? THE KEY IS FLASH HOLE ALIGNMENT AND A QUALITY LOCK!
I agree. You don't need (or want) a beauty queen to hunt with. The ornate, highly decorated rifles were rare in their time. They were not used hard which is why they survived to be in museums and private collections today. The plain everyday rifles were used until they were worn out. Fewer of them exist now.
Bout time! The music is actually a valuable contribution to the overall video. I happened across a Traditions flinter last summer. This was a cheap plastic stocked junk rifle. The surprise is that this rifle shoots VERY WELL. The only misfires that I've had have been directly attributeable to my own errors. Either a dirty lock, or over used Flint and in need of knapping. True it's a millisecond slower than your rifle but it's consistent and definitely not slow. I completely trust this cheap rifle. Even more than my old "reliable" Navy Arms Harpers Ferry. Which I paid a LOT of money for 30 years ago. And I have run it past 100 shots in the last couple months. Still shooting the original Flint although it it has been trimmed. A couple times.
BRILLIANT..if you haven't seen it..Gunsmithing of Williamsburg, it was filmed in 69 and is in my humble opinion superb..a rifle made from scratch from start to finish.🇬🇧
Thanks for the informative video. Your comments mirror my early experience with a Pedersoli Kentucky Rifle in 50 cal. I was lucky to get ignition about 50% of the time shooting real black powder. Some of this was no doubt due to my lack of experience. However I came across some information provided by Hogdon Powder Co. for those using Pyrodex. They suggested using 5-10 grs of 4F down the barrel first before the main charge. This upped my ignition rate to about 85%, and remember I was always using real black powder, so my ignition problems couldn't be attributed soley to my loading procedure.
I wish I found you during the global shutdown. New to flintlock I acquired a priceless education after I procured a Traditions Pirate pistol to occupy my overabundance of spare time. Right out of the box the barrel was full of metal chips, the pan slightly obscured the flash hole, the frizzen spring was TOOOOO firm, and the trigger pull took Heman a double fist to touch off. A frustration driven tare down, no longer concerned with damaging a new pistol I de-burred & polished all the lock components using the dremmel and stones. A few more attempts to operate the pistol I grabbed the dremmel once again and lowered and widened the groove in the flash pan placing the flash hole in the center of the trough. Still failing to function consistently I lightened the frizzen spring with channel locks. I may get a fail to fire 1 in 10 shots. It is now more reliable than my cap lock TC Hawken. Twist rate, pistol primers, that's all another story.
I got into flintlock this year in PA to fill my tags. I'm hooked now. Probably exactly what they had in mind with the flintlock season. I feel like jeremiah johnson with my hawkin, I love this thing.
Really impressed by the very obvious expertise in this video. I have no experience with firearms, but my boss in Paris …a Frenchman…did reprimand me for using foul language when I described a situation , as a cockup. It took me a long time to understand why he objected to this very common expression. Only when I googled it, did I discover it comes from the cock feathers on arrows, and has carried on into terminology for flintlocks…..I think 🤔
Excellent video, thanks for the insight. I'm an old shooter but I'm only now wanting to give the flintlock a shot. I'm a bit torn between imported (value) and custom (quality) at the moment. I get it, I truly do, it's not much different than when I purchase a "regular smokeless firearm", you usually get what you pay for. It's just that the price is drastically different (up to 10X) and I'm still hoping I will enjoy the hobby itself. Tough decisions ahead but you have given me a lot to consider. Thank you very much. Best wishes.
I have an old CVA Mountain Rifle built from a kit with an L&R Manton lock. The only time it misfired on a deer was due to having the flint misaligned. It went off the second try and killed an 8 pt. I always pick the frizzen hole and wipe the pan, frizzen and flint lightly with alcohol before using. A few simple habits will make it reliable.
I have a Lyman Great Plains flintlock.....my only flintlock. Haven't shot it in some time. When I first got it, there was definitely a learning curve and a lot of tinkering to get it to shoot. And shoot it did! Have never hunted with it or competed but I know, with practice, I could dial that rifle in again and have confidence in it. I know it's not a custom lock, but for a production rifle it was well made. I have had it for about 15+ years. Maybe they were made in the states then or at least in Italy to Lyman's specs. Informative video. Thanks for sharing..............
Thanks for the amazing video and helpful information. A few years back I got a musket from India just for reenacting with blanks. I drilled the vent hole well and the frizzen threw good sparks from the factory. It looks some work with a knowledgable friend of mine to re harden the sear that had managed to bend itself just under the weight of pulling the trigger ;D. We naturally made sure it was safe to shoot at that point and determined it was, but would never use it for hunting or target work. Ive put a couple thousand shots through but only blanks, still puts a shower of sparks. I think its good for the purposes I use and the price I got it for. As long as I keep it clean I get 1 misfire every 20-25 shots. I think Italian imports aren't worth the price you pay and will be getting a good hand made in America flintlock for hunting in the near future, probably a Lancaster. One friend of mine told me he got 1/10 misfires on his pedersoli Kentucky and thinks that's reliable, I know that's ridiculous as my India Charleville for half the price is more reliable after 2000+ shots. All in all I think the gun gave me good knowledge of these weapons which will be helpful as I move on. I tell people don't buy these unless your prepared to do some work on them!
Brass Turtle (Crane Creek Cache) made me a custom (ground up) 1824 Barnett Tombstone Fox Trade Gun in 58 caliber smoothbore back in 1981. Never failed and fast. Glad you touched on flash hole placement (critical to fast transfer). Would love to see a video on flint knapping, another critical skill.
I have Thompson and Lyman flintlock muzzleloader's. There is nothing wrong with their locks. I found after 37 years of flintlock hunting that the touch hole is very important. I like the one that takes the allen wrench with the bigger hole. I use 4f in the pan. Here in PA flintlocks are huge because we have a flintlock only deer season. I also use a cow ear when hunting. Gotta keep the powder dry. I do know that CVA and Tradition has a terrible spring system on the lock. I have 3 Lyman rifles and they all work very good. I put venison on the table every year with my Deer Stalker 54 caliber. I have 9 flintlock's but that 54 is a deer hammering beast.
My Thompson always perform well.I even have a couple of india flintlocks from military heritage in canada.They needed alot of work smoothing the springs and drilling the vent hole but for anyone wanting a good flintlock just starting out this is a good way to go.And at just under 600 dollars they are well worth it..Theres plenty of great youtube videos explaining the procedure mardras arsenal ...murphys muskets and 11bangbang all have great info on the affordable and well made copies.You can also learn alot on a website called muzzleloading forums although its a challenge to wade thru the haters who feel only 3000 dollar custom guns can be used for shooting.Jim kibler makes a great product but if you are not a professional gunsmith your results may be frustrating and those kits are 1200 dollars.
My introductory into muzzleloaders is the ubiquitous Traditions Hawken Woodsman Flintlock in .50 ca. I got it to learn with and I've been learning with it. I've had to replace the mainspring and when I had her disassembled, I noticed that it could use some finishing work which I did to give the lock a tighter fit. I recently had a couple of flash in the pans with it and worked with some buds online to diagnose the problem and sorted it out. When she's right, she's RIGHT. The response on that ignition is spot on. I just learned that everything has to be perfect for that to happen and I've had to learn how to clean her differently than my modern firearms. But that's what it's for, for me to practice with, to learn the mechanicals of the action, to work on my form with and to learn how to tool. Little by little, I've been making her "mine" more and more. Don't get me wrong, she came from the factory shooting right, but a little use and the quirks began to pop up AND some of it came from my poor habits with it (storage, not cleaning enough, etc...). But I learned and it's made me a better caretaker of my other firearms. I didn't get a flintlock to hunt deer with (even though that's all I want it for), I got it to teach me to be a better firearms owner because there's practically zero room for failure or laziness with them. They are the most finicky things one can shoot. There are no shortcuts with a flintlock. For $500, what can one expect? It's a beginner traditional muzzleloader and I got her fully knowing that someday, I'd be "investing" in something grander later on once I've learned the basics with this one. Eventually, I'll own a Hawken flintlock that costs 3X what a mortgage is. Until then, I'll keep learning with this obe so that when do own an heirloom quality flintlock, the weak point in owning that piece will have already been sorted out (namely, "me"). Thanks a lot for this video. It's great stuff and I'm a smarter man for having watched it (again and again and again). --Yankee
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Thanks. You know what they say, "it's not the arrow, it's the indian" to which I add..."and when it is the arrow, it's up to the indian to make it right."
I remember a Flintlock reliability contest at an event 'Feast of the Hunters Moon' many years ago. There were around 20 shooters, most with import flintlocks. Some rifles, some smooth bores, some military muskets. At least two shooters had custom made flinters, made in the USA. Blanks only, no bullets or shot. When the order to fire was given, everyone had to fire. Any gun that didn't fire, was out. After less than ten shots, only those two fellows were left. After over twenty shots, they were asked to turn their rifles upside down, the pans towards the ground. After forty shots the contest was declared a draw. : )
Before I got my first flintlock I witnessed a flintlock match where the rifle had to be held upside down, above your head and hit the target. It was raining. The rifles were loaded from the bag. In the open, no overhead cover. Every one of these rifles fired without a hiccup. All were custom rifles with custom locks. I was fully convinced, flintlocks are reliable. Provided you have a good lock and you know how to operate them.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 well, they had to both kill dinner and serve as military weapons. Unreliable military weapons are the tools of the losing side. Given what I've saw on the range, I'd put a quality flintlock with good black powder just below a modern center fire military round out of a military rifle in reliability. That's pretty much, if one is waiting to count malfunctions and misfires, it's gonna be a really, really long day.
"Custom made" means nothing considering 90+% of builders know next to nothing. So much ego and bullshit, self-proclaimed experts who really are little more than kitchen table wanna-be gunsmiths, in the traditional muzzleloader world.
Good information. Thank you. I can attest to what you're saying but not with a factory made gun. The first flintlock I bought was a used custom made gun I bought at a Gunsmoke and for which I payed a pretty substantial price. It had a good siler lock and a quz.ity barrel. It was only later and after some research that I found the gun had been put together by somebody who knew nothing about what he was doing. He had set the touch hole so low in the pan that he had had to grind out the bottom of the pan with a fuse like indentation leading to the touch hole. When it fired, if it fired, it hissed like a firecracker and you'd have time to count five before the gun went off. Another thing he did was to set the touch hole too far back so that it touched the breech plug just as you described and he had attempted to fix the problem just as you described and illustrated. What I had was good quality parts turned into junk. My advice would be to do your research, learn how a good flintlock is supposed to look and function before you buy a flintlock then either buy a good one from a maker with a good reputation or gain enough knowledge to put one together the right way.
From the folk I've talked to, and what I've seen myself, to overcome that flash issue with imported muskets, specifically Indian muskets, is check the vent going from the pan to the chamber and make sure it's not teeny-tiny, i don't know the exact size needed, but make sure it's wide enough to let a good spark through. And also harden the frizzen to make sure you get a good spark on the imports
Wow! Great video! So many truths exposed… Flintlocks ARE excellent rifles. They would not have been used for 200+ years if they WEREN’T excellent. But they have to be tuned to work correctly. For my ‘good brand’ Italian lock, I had to: - polish ever contact surface including the faceplate where springs rub - deepen the pan since the touch hole was half covered by it - Drill out the butt plug that partially blocked the vent hole (like shown in the video) - taper the touch hole vent so heat would be directed to the charge - case-harden some of the parts to prevent wear (a file test shows the soft parts) - Grind the frizzen to match the pan’s shape - rough up the face of the frizzen All of this took me years to figure out. But when done, I had a real shooter that I sold to a friend (without feeling guilty), and he is still using it! If you can’t afford a good lock and have to buy cheap, it isn’t the end of the world. But you best have a Dremel tool, polishing compound, and lots of patience.
I shoot left handed and 10 years ago, wanted to build one from a kit, so for a while my only known option was Dixie Gunworks, Investarms. I figure it was a practice run. Haven't been able to get it to fire yet and went to caplocks. Caplocks seem easier for cheap guns to shoot. Didn't know about Jim Chambers at the time. Looks like I'll be ordering one from there next and do it right this time.
Very interesting. As a layman I would have thought that speed of ignition from the pan charge igniting, to the main charge going off would be down to two factors, one the quality, grain size and dryness of the powder and secondly how that flash propagates through the touch hole. I believe in some of the quality flintlock guns they had a small antichamber before the main charge the purpose being to ignite the main charge with some force this perhaps aiding more complete combustion and a faster ignition time. I was very impressed with how fast your own flintlock was, almost instant, very good. I have not shot a muzzle loader in 30 years but did own a Mississippi Springfield percussion rifle in the past. Hangfires and misfires were always down to damp powder and or fouling. In the UK at certain times of the year it is not always so easy to "Keep one's powder dry" :)
Flintlocks are a complex mechanism. The mechanics have to be right, the cleaning and maintenance has to be right, The flint has to be right, and the shooter has to understand the proper way to load and prime it. It is a steep learning curve and it helps to have an expert mentor along the way. There are not many written sources for all that information.
I have had good luck with my stainless firestorm. Ive had a very nice custom flintlock, but growing up in oregon, i really appreciate the stainless steel. I was fortunate to have some really knowledgeable old timers teach me what took them decades to learn. Heres what they said: Use real black powder, the substatutes are less suseptible to bad weather, and some are even less corrosive, but they have a slightly higher ignition temp, and will never be as reliable and quick of ignition as real black powder in a flintlock. Imports are fine, but you might need to take the frizen to a real blacksmith or a real gunsmith, if it doesnt work well out of the box, treat yourself and have them do a trigger job while they are in there, if you dont have the skills to do it youself. They almost never do a decent barrel crowning job on mussle loaders. Doing that will make a big accuracy improvement. townsend whelens book on gunsmithing has some low cost low tech ways to do that. Its out of print but i was able to get it through library loan when i was a broke student. A bad lock will improve your trigger pulling technique, if you flinch a bunch with a flash in the pan, youll know, hah. You dont fill up the pan with powder, it shouldnt cover the hole, lots of newbies think its a trail of powder from the pan to the main charge that fires the gun, but when its set up right, its the super heated air above the burning pan powder that travels on a shock wave from the explosion that travels down the touch hole and fired the gun. That is the secret for reliable ignition, and blazing fast lock time. A platnum touch hole liner is worth it, i got mine at a rendezvous for under $20. The hole is so small, it doesnt take hardly any corrosion to block 3/4 of it off. And you dont want to just enlarge that hole cause that bleeds off the speed of your projectile, and with the rainbow trajectory they have vs, a 30-06 or something, you dont want to give up sny more velocity, hah.
Really informative video, first time watcher, and I have learned about 90% of the content just by time and experience. I like your instruction and information that brings the content information down to the level of the interested viewer. I have been taught as an instructor to always try to instruct at the lowest comprehension and experience level of the listener. If I could pass on some simple advice for any of your future videos. Please use more visual aids when you are speaking about a specific subject, such as the alignment of the flash hole with the lock pan. Perhaps a large simple sharpie marker drawing of the sear nose wear good and damaged, or how the double trigger needs to be tuned in a visual aid would allow your viewers to understand and absorb your topic. Thank you for presenting your knowledge to make the sport more enjoyable.
Thanks for the video... I picked up a few hints from it. I have been messing with flinters for a decade or three now. My present one is a Pedersoli .50 calibre.. The lock parts are all very hard.... good start... although the sear spring would have done duty in a small vehicle, which gave the lock a heavy 8lb let off in spite of surprisingly correct angles on sear and bent. Slimming that sear spring somewhat backed it down to a very crisp 3.5lbs (not a set trigger). The only other fault I could find with the rifle was that the touch hole was very near the bottom of the pan, which was itself very shallow. It tend to hang up a bit with even the tiniest bit too much prime powder. It was the work of a few minutes to deepen the pan to correctly relate it to the touch hole, which solved the problem. Ignition has always been fast and reliable, although I did turn up a touch hole liner with a more 'venturi' shape on the inside (314 stainless). Happily the touch hole is well clear of the breech plug, so no issues there. Both of those small modifications to lock and touch hole seemed to speed things up a bit... noticeably so, but not dramatically. I got my clues about touch hole to pan relationship from an 18th century treatise that I found in my local library some 30 years ago, can't remember who wrote it now, but back then the flintlock was all they had, and they knew how to make them run. There's a lot of modern "lore" about flinters as well as percussion revolvers that is largely untrue.... one does wonder where these ideas originate. It was nice to have my own researches and findings confirmed by your video, thanks again.
Thank you for your comments. I agree on the "lore" concerning black powder muzzleloaders. A lot of misinformation has been passed down and some still believed today despite being proven wrong with modern high speed photography. There are very few written accounts on how civilians loaded the rifle. It seems the method was passed down verbally until cartridge rifles took over and then that knowledge was lost. When interest in muzzleloaders returned, much "folk lore" and superstition was accepted as common knowledge. It takes some study to sort through it all.
One piece of lore that really bothers me is people saying you have to grease the chambers on a percussion revolver, or else it would "chain fire" more than one chamber. The only way that is going to happen is if you use very undersized projectiles to the point the rammer isn't needed to press in the balls, or maybe don't put caps on all the nipples... I have greased the chambers on my revolvers maybe three times, and fired them hundreds of times, and have never had a chain fire. I think chain fires are highly overexaggerated and would happen more often in the fog of war, possibly being supplied undersized ammo.
@@sethmullins8346 Proper fitting ball and caps = no chain fires. A lubed felt wad or lube on the bullet help keep fouling soft. No need to fill the chamber with crisco. It just makes a bigger mess.
In the 1st incident, he had a dull flint. One must keep the flint sharp. The flint should be sharpened every 3 or 4 shots. 2nd, you get a 'wick affect' from that powder is against the touch hole, not away from the touch hole. I always use '1' powder. I use the powder in the pan and the barrel. As the author of the video stated, if fired correctly, a flintlock is as reliable as any other gun, except in the rain, and will fire almost instantaneous.
Nice video. I bought a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield a few years ago and have been having a hard time getting the first shot off. I'm talking about shooting 10 musket caps and no discharge of the rifle. I would then take out the nipple, pour some powder in and then would get a shot to go off. I always suspected that the breach plug was blocking the ignition.
I’m just beginning to dabble in the idea of muzzle loaders, and flintlocks in particular, so I really never thought about how the mechanism has to be balanced. Cheap parts, poorly machined is nothing new, but the idea of various springs needing to work together, with the weight of parts is interesting. Gives me some new respect for old time gun makers.
I’ve hunted with a custom flintlock for more then 50 years…. Custom Southern Tennessee Mountain Rifle, Siler Lock, .54 cal Green River Rifle works barrel and some beautiful curly maple stock. On a very rare occasion, I get a hang fire, due too my laziness, and not making sure my touch hole isn’t clean. But extremely rare. Also have a very good touch hole liner, which also helps on ignition!
I bought a collected custom parts kit for a Hawken Flintlock (90% inlet stock). They said they assembled the best and most accurate parts of a desired gun and make a do -it-yourself kit. The build was easier than expected but the lock was iffy. I sent it to a locksmith (muzzle-loading mag ad). He said lock's geometry was off. From what I observe, he lengthened the throw of the dog by adding a piece of metal to its internal bar. (I've no idea the correct terms here.) Since then it works very reliably. All exactly as described in the video.
Poor geometry is a common issue. You won't have that with a Chambers or other custom lock. Some parts kits will allow you to substitute a Chambers lock, others won't. I glad you got it working right.
Good informative video, as a life long BP shooter your video on the flintlock and reliability is hard to argue with. I shoot BP trap and use a percussion action made by Pedersoli, with a 1,000 round plus in a season the lock has held up well for several years. I would love a custom made firearm such as yours but cost is the main distractor.
I've had no issues with their percussion locks. But their quality control lets some bad stuff get out the door. Inexcusable when their prices are so close to that of a custom built gun.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Thank you for the reply, and yes if I had the availability for a custom made rifle it would be on the drawing board right now. Unfortunately living north of the border is very limiting to BP builders. We rely on reproductions or antiques for our needs.
I have a traditions Springfield Hawken that simply would not work until I opened up the touch hole. I eventually replaced the liner with a white lighting and replaced the lock with an L&R. It now shoots reliably, and is quite accurate.
Thanks for sharing! I have a growing interest in flintlocks, especially M1777 models, but I have no clue if they're even remotely suitable for shooting at the range.
Great informative video. I've been shooting percussion rifles for several years but want to get started with Flintlocks. Until I saw this video I wasn't aware of some of these things. In my research I am a bit unsure with all the options where I would purchase a custom rifle, any suggestions?
If possible, find a muzzleloading club close to you and visit some of their shooting events. Contacts for builders, used rifles, and much assistance can be found there. Also, look and the Track of the Wolf website to get some ideas.
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Enjoyed watching. thanks for sharing. I learned a few good points.. I was curious if you clean you poke you vent after every shot or ever 2-3.
Another alternative that always worked for me is quill or use a round toothpick in the vent before loading. It will unblock the vent and keep the pan and barrel powder clear. You then will get a flash straight into the main charge.
Yup ! Put a L&R lock on an old cva Kentucky rifle I built when I was a teenager. Completely changed the rifle ! With mine, I also noticed the vent screw was longer than the thickness of the barrel so it protruded well into the chamber. I cut it so it was flush with the barrel thickness and also coned it out slightly. I tell people curious about buying flint locks that every one of them has a different personality. The shape of the flint, angle, amount of prime is different for every rifle. Once you understand what it requires, it'll be dead reliable. English blacks all the way ;-)
Yes, there are so many details in a flintlock rifle that must be done correctly for it to be reliable. I looked at a Lyman flintlock this past weekend which was giving the shooter fits. It wasn't sparking enough to ignite the prime every time. The hammer dimension was wrong for the lock. Even with his flint bevel down, the flint was contacting the frizzen about 3/4 's of the way down. Much too low. It simply was not scraping enough of that frizzen face to throw the quantity of sparks necessary. At half cock, he had a large gap between the edge of the flint and the frizzen face. This was with a new, full length flint. A longer cock might fix the problem but fix that and other problems will likely show up that went unnoticed before.
that's interesting, and there's a lot to learn in it. My Pedersoli flinter, along with my Track of the Wolf buffalo flinter have never had any of these issues, except when I tried Pyrodex. then, I couldn't get it to fire at all. Turns out Pyrodex has a higher flash point than black. But like I said, my lock times are excellent, and I've never had any issues with either of my flint guns, and neither are anywhere near as expensive as a custom gun. Not, mind you, that I wouldn't like to have one, but simply can't justify the expense.
Friends, this is good advice. That's why it's good to start out with a percussion rifle. You learn to manage you rifle and figure out how to solve problems. The Italian guns are pretty good and should last a long time. Even original guns needed a new a frizzen or some lock work from time to time. The steel in the Spanish guns tends to be a bit too soft. I wore the lock out of a Spanish Hawkin in about four years of heavy use. I clean and oil my locks regularly and put a dab of gun-slick grease on the friction bearing surfaces. Even a good lock will wear and have a short life if it's run dry too long.. Occasionally you will find a flintlock with the pan not centered on the touch-hole. Maybe the touch-hole is too low or a little off to the right or left. What you can do is remove the lock and use a dremel tool and grinding burr to remove a little metal on one side of the pan or the other or deepen the pan a little to get the pan centered on the touch-hole better. Most locks have enough metal around the pan to allow for that. Centering things up will improve ignition. Another thing is keep the touch-hole clean. I like to take a two inch piece of the largest bronze wound guitar string and glue it into a bit of deer horn and attach it to my strap on my shooting bag. Bronze is softer than steel so it won't enlarge your touch-hole and the ribbed surface does a good job of rasping away the fouling for consistent ignition. A custom gun is a very nice thing. It's a shame that by the time we have the disposable income to buy a custom rifle we are so old we can't see as well as when we were younger. Kind of like a 70 year old man driving a Corvette. Thanks for the video.
As shown by the guy trying to shoot his flintlock rifle, the majority of the time, the lock ignited the priming powder in the pan. So, even though the locks are of lesser quality, they are not really the main issue. The main issue is the internals of the barrel close to the tough hole of imported guns. The majority of these guns has a very narrow channel up to an inch long in the breech plug in the center. This long narrow channel is then drilled from the side and a touchhole liner is put in. The problem is, that the appropriate size powder (FFG for .50) will not easily enter into this narrow channel. It tends to arc in the channel and thus will not get closely to the touchhole. This is especially true if the gun has been fired once and the narrow channel is a place where gunk can collect. Good luck getting powder next to the touchhole next time. If an imported barrel like this is cut off at the breech and a regular flint breech plug is installed with a proper touch hole liner, the gun will fire almost 100%. The OP is correct, that the lock quality is also not the best. That manifests itself in either poor sparking or short flint life or both. Bad geometry and unbalanced main and frizzen springs are the biggest issue there. But, if the internal barrel would be corrected by the manufacturers, the majority of these guns would be much more serviceable. I rebuilt my old Pedersoli flintlock from 1993 into a "Lancaster Style rifle". The barrel was cut off and received a regular flint breech plug and a correctly installed touchhole liner. I reused the old lock internals and just made a new lock plate. The gun went from "barely" firing a second shot to "firing each time" the flint was not worn down. It now has an American made quality flintlock and now fires 99.99%. The 0.01% is when I screw up, lol. With Kibler longrifle kits in existence, there is hardly a reason to buy any of these imported guns anymore. At least from a price point. For the people on very low budgets under $1000. Look out for a used rifle with quality US parts. It may not be pretty, but it will shoot reliably. If you think you are able to buy a flintlock for $500, think again and save up for something made with US parts.
I have a L&R flintlock and several TC, Lyman, and CVA flintlocks, all fire reliably. I would love a custom hand polished flintlock but cost is a huge determent. Many of the comments are for custom builders/buyers and that's fine. My TC Pennsylvania hunter is still going strong after 20+ years as is my full stock Hawken L&R flintlock that I built. Lots of good advise on here, however, don't be pushed to purchase a custom built rifle at $3-5K.
Interesting piece on merchandising. I've had a CVA and Jim Chambers flintlock. I've had some issues even with them. I remember thinking back in the 80s-90s that because most people who are shooting flintlocks are hobbyists, manufacturers' goals are to keep this in mind and allow quality to be low. Even the Chambers lock and parts had metallurgy quality issues. The trigger in particular was not hardened.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Not so much the lock, but the trigger which was made by another manufacturer I believe. Another oddity about that rifle, the rifling's were not turned, they were straight.
I had an Investment Arms flintlock. It was one of those “May Pop” rifles. I tried lots of different things it was never reliable. I finally got fed up and dumped it. Regarding imported cap locks, I’ve had similar experiences with guns I shot weekly. Soft parts. My TCs however seem to hold up pretty good.
I have had a CVA Kentucky Rifle since 1976 and have had no major problems with it. I have even used Pyrodex, but only on the barrel have always used Black Powder in the pan.
Alot of guys drill out the flash hole alittle bit. I took my kibler out to the range and an old timer asked what i drilled it out to. I had no idea what he was talking about. He explained the whole thing. I dont have any of those problems...
I appreciate what he is saying . ..and agree with much of it . . . BUT . . .I own a Lyman Great Plains and I have two custom rifles I have built with Chambers's Siler locks. I have had misfires in all three, flash in the pans and "clatches" . . .they were due to simple reasons like a poor flint, dirty flint or dirty lock . . but the Lyman lock works just fine. . . The Chamber's lock is stiffer and a little faster, and yes, a "better" lock, but I've also taken deer with the Lyman and have full confidence in it. . .even though I bought it used. Someone can screw up a chambers lock or misplace the touch hole and have an unreliable rifle. I am currently building a rifle with an L&R lock. If I don't place it or the touchhole correctly, it won't fire well either. I've seen broken springs on L&R and chambers locks too btw. If one does not clear the touchole with a vent pick every shot, and swabs between shots as many shooters do . . .any rifle regardless of the lock will misfire. ( I am leary of many imports though - not Pedersoli they seem to be well liked.).
Well, yes. If your rifle was built by a "hack" a custom lock wont work either. Do your due diligence when selecting a rifle builder. There are a couple I hear nothing but bad news about. I don't want to name them in a public forum. Just, beware and check references.
Ya, "Ach du lieber, mein schatz"! WOW, mein freund! This is the most informative & wonderful video I've ever seen on the flintlock, bar none!!! I'm 82 now & been shooting black powder guns since about 1968. I own a gorgeous custom made 1793 John Philip Beck Flinter in .54 caliber, made for me by Monte Mandarino in about 1973 (advertised in Muzzleblasts Magazine way back then!). Douglas bbl, Siler lock, beautiful tiger Maple fullstock, fully carved! Any problems I've ever had with this lock I believe have been MY fault! What do you think of Siler locks? I assume they would probably be considered "semi-custom locks"! know you can't really reply though. As a retired technical illustrator, I would have loved to have drawn up some nice illustrations on some of the points you discussed on the flintlock, things that you couldn't see!! Cutaways, full sections, exploded views, etc. One thing I didn't see too well was a screwdriver slot on the touch hole liner (barely visible), to facilitate unscrewing the liner to add powder into the barrel. The liner shown was obviously filed flush with the barrel. Many great points you brought out about the differences between a good lock & a "cheapie"! I greatly admire your expertise! "Gesundheit"!
Thank you for the comments! I love those Beck style rifles too. My Siler lock is the Deluxe Siler made by Jim Chambers and polished further by my rifle builder. The lock on my Chief's gun is a semi-custom built by NorthStar West. I actually prefer the vent liner filed smooth to the slotted liners. I don't remove the vent for cleaning. I am not sponsored or obligated to anyone. Therefore, I can say what I think without worry of offending. My opinions are all mine based on experience and observation. I can tell it like I see it.
I was at the range one day and watched a guy shooting a flintlock. Every shot went off. So, I approached him and asked what he had for a lock. "Siler" was his response. He asked me if I'd like to shoot it. "Sure," I said. So, I took an offhand shot at a steel plate 100 yards away. Dead center. Since then, I've had two TVM flintlocks built with Siler locks. Unfortunately, I haven't been to the range yet, but I'm confident those locks will work.
I know a guy that still has one of those radioactive frizzens. it never failed him, for the few months he had it on, since then it has been in a lead case.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 He was a PA champion a few times for muzzleloaders in the 80's. In his 70's and still uses the flintlocks with his grandkids (kid still can not keep up with him) He also finished the deer season last Monday. Me I just missed for the first time in 35 years now time to go out for the afternoon with possible showers.
I have fired original flintlock Pennsylvania rifles, percussion rifles, and shotguns. And many replicas, and have built a couple using new and original parts. I have taken an inexpensive lock and hardened the frizzen by wrapping in leather and aluminum foil and burying in my woodstove. Worked perfectly. But they will wear out and springs will break.
Thanks for the video. However my 2c and what is worth for. I could also speculate that the powder in the pan was too much and burned instead of flashing ( guess why it is called flash hole ) Or wrong powder ( Pyrodex?) It looks like it had the first couple of times good ignition but the powder burned slow and for a long time. Not the problem a lock is causing. So given the fact that many, many imported guns work flawlessly, I bet a lot of people will disagree with your arguments. Domestic examples with the same problems will probably also reported
Same could be said for inexpensive modern hunting rifles. Any competent gun smith will improve functionality by Giving it a once over, to put it very simply. Figuring out the right load is everything. I have several import flintlocks and caplocks and everyone just took time to get to know. Flint size, powder size and load? You never know what truly works best in a gun till you try all that out. Muzzleload elk season here in southern oregon is very wet, rain every day this last season. I hunt it with an import flintlock with 4f priming powder because that's proven to be more reliable than a caplock with all the moisture. I'm sure tons of folks would disagree, but that's what works for me? In other words all my guns ignite great when it's warm and dry, but cold and wets another story.
I can agree somewhat that a good gunsmith can often fix a cheaply made rifle. But add what you pay him to do so to the original cost of the cheep rifle and... Why not just buy a good rifle to start?
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I wish I could? Easier said than done unfortunately. The few resources in 250 mile radius don't have any unless you get really lucky. Otherwise I just have rely on track or dixie. In last couple of years there hasn't been much. I'd be spending a lot more money on an unknown.
In my experience failure to fire in a flintlock can be due to a number of issues. Flint is not sharp or positioned to strike the frizzen squarely. Pan improperly filled with powder-powder should not touch be in contact with the touch hole or you will get the fuse effect. Touch hole may be blocked-use a pick to clear the touch hole on every shot after loading. And of course poor construction and materials used in the lock itself. At first I only used 4F for the pan, but after running out of it found that the use of 3F that I also load with works just fine.
This was the first time I had tried a flintlock rifle, I shoot percussion rifles mainly, I have several percussion rifles and figured I'd give flintlocks a try, the video shown was the first outing at the range and admittedly it wasn't the best encounter but I learned from it, I'm definitely no expert with flintlock rifles but I think I have come into a better understanding of them not as much as my percussion rifles but in time I'll get them figured out.
Excellent Video. I make my own flintlocks. I have an org Brown Bess to learn from and spent a long time digesting inform at toon from colonial Williamsburg. I also restore machine tools and work on steam engines. When you get a machined barrel, all of the features may be present including the lower dovetails which is a clear indicator to where the top of the barrel resides. The breach plug must thread into this barrel tightly but it also has to be oriented correctly. Threads are not known for locating correctly under final torque. So if not correct, you need to cut a morsel off the back of the barrel and try again. If the vent hole has been drilled, it will move towards the breech plug during this fitting. When the breach plug is made, the threaded shank is made long to facilitate accurate threading especially when using a die. If the builder does not trim this shank to fit the barrel, the breech plug can interfere with the vent hole. Lastly, if the builder drills the vent hole following the fitting of the breech plug, care must be taken in terms of locating the hole relative to an accurate banking surface. Screw this up and you can drill into the breech plug. As romantic as the notion of interchangeable parts are history will laugh at you here. It was the military flintlock made by Eli Whitney that first introduced the notion of interchangeability. Whitney got the army contract but failed miserably in delivery of interchangeability. It was not achieved until years later as the science of machine precision became known. The design and production of flintlocks predates interchangeability. So these guns rely on the gun smith hand fitting the parts including tumblers, plugs, Sears and barrels. 4140 chrome molly did not exist. Rather steel was Cade hardened using bone meal and charcoal. Today we have caseinite in a can. Same process where the core of a part remains mailable but the wear surface is hard for wear. Case hardening is excellent but not cheap and easy to screw up. So a flintlock made by a skilled craftsman is dead nuts reliable. A lock mass produced for quick sale is a crap shoot.
The best flint lock is the one that Jim Kibler makes from a process that is perfect you can’t beat it . The locks are trouble free and just as quick as a percussion lock. His kits are not cheap if you want a easy kit to build yourself and have a top notch flintlock you will be very happy
i have a lyman that i ended up puting an L &R lock on to fix these exact issues. the lock made a world of difference. i wish i could buy a custom but i just cant (although with the cost of replacing the lock and having to do my own inlets i probably come close).
I have a Lyman GPR Flintlock. This rifle has served me well. I just want to say, as with everything in life, you get what you pay for. No I didn’t go out and buy a custom flintlock, because at the time I couldn’t afford one. I grew up with the mindset that if you can’t afford the high dollar product, make what you have better. And for someone starting off, it gets you to understand how things work a little more. I’m not saying you’re wrong here. This is just some of the flintlock snobbery some guys have the reputation for.
I have tried Pyrodex in my .54 TC Hawken, and it works if you put about 5-10 grains of triple x black powder in the barrel prior to the Pyrodex. Just adjust the total load accordingly. I use triple x bp exclusively however for hunting.
I am new to shooting BP muzzle loaders, but have been advised by many experienced shooters NOT to mix pyrodex powder with real black powder. Is it OK to use pyrodex for priming the pan but real BP for the load in the barrel? I am finding it difficult to find 4F black powder.
Malarkey Flintlock is learning curve, custom or factory, foreign or domestic. Yes you can PAY to have someone with much experience set it up and maintain it for you or you can learn yourself. I own several of both custom and factory guns. Il take the Pepsi challenge with ya anytime and il use an very affordable factory rifle made oversees. Say when 👍 👍
I have a T/C Renegade (kit) Flinter and I've missed hundreds of deer with it dur to hangfires, misfires, bad sight alignment, etc. Hasnt deterred me from shooting for sport and hunting, or building/collecting a plethora of pistols and rifles.
I have found import frizzens and locks to be inferior. My first flintlock was a cheap CVA kit built in 1973, and I could almost never get it to go off, partly because I don't think it was quality and partly because I was using sawed flints. There were times when I literally had to touch it off with a match just to empty it. But my Great Plains has been great. But before getting rid of your gun because it is unreliable put an L&R replacement lock on it. They make replacement locks for most production guns. I've used them and was very happy with them. They even replaced a frizzen with over 2000 shots on it for free. Currently most of my locks are silers on custom,guns.
@@ltdc426 You quite literally typed out "My first flintlock was a cheap CVA kit built in 1973," it's the second sentence of your comment. Maybe internet isn't your thing? Go back to newspapers.
a flash in the pan isn't a lock issue, its a loading issue or flash hole issue. your going on about reliable ignition but i can see it reliably ignite the pan (which is the job of the lock). the lock does not load the rifle or transfer the flame to the powder charge or knap and set the flint properly. some simple advice for anyone with this issue, just use a nipple pick to clear the flash hole and check if you properly seated the bullet.
For those of you asking "why not fix the lock to work?" Here is a link to a good article on how to do just that.
americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.msg607217#msg607217
Look at it. Realize the lock being "fixed" is considered a "custom" lock. Better than the average production lock. Then ask if you have the tools, skill, and knowledge to do that work.
You can't polish a turd.
Ive used lead sheet pieces cut to fit the jaws on the lock flint doesnt budge but still needs knapping
Two words- Jim Kibler.
I’m a brand new shooter and can’t afford a custom gun, at least right now in my life but I could save up for a USA made kit from Kibler which would be at the upper end of a finished import. It’s been 100% reliable. Thanks for the great videos sir
Kibler kits are good quality. A rifle does not need fancy decorations to shoot straight and win events. However, it is nice to take the homecoming queen to the prom.
This guy is fantastic. He speaks clearly and slow enough for me to understand everything as we go. He is sensational. Be a damn good teacher
Thank you.
I agree with some of whats being said but......I am afraid this information could discourage a lot of new and up and coming shooters and that i am afraid will kill the sport. I would love to have a custom flint lock but unfortunately for a lot of us life gets in the way and cannot afford the price of these rifles. These affordable imports get people interested and that's a good thing. From there they can decide if they want to go farther by buying a better quality rifle or are happy with what they have. If not for my Traditions rifle i would never got interested in muzzle loaders because that was all i could afford at the time.
What I have witnessed is, they get disgusted, set it aside and never touch another muzzleloader.
I own 5 flintlocks that are imported and have killed deer with all 5 of them.I have one flintlock that i built myself all parts made in the U.S.A its the southern longrifle and too me it is no better than the imported ones.If the imported rifles are that bad why do people keep buying them.Something here don't line up.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 you are too right. I broke two muzzleloaders. I couldn’t stand them anymore. I’m only now 6 years later getting back to them.
@@edwinhendrix30 they cost less than half as much?
@@evandaire1449 Well you heard the man if it isn't custom made with all the best parts like the rifle he so proudly owns and brags on, then your back to square one, so Get ready to start breaking again! lol
Excellent video, my Dad was about to turn his Traditions Flintlock Kentucky Rifle into a wall hanger, because he could never get a reliable shot out of it, well that was until we started using real black powder. Now Dad's rifles fires on the first strike every single time without fail and he loves it again. I cannot argue with you on the quality of parts, you truly get what you pay for.
Thanks for your comment.
Yes, flinters need real holy black! I wonder how many people don't realize this.
Many have been told and shown, they just don't want to accept it. But I don't mind, when they finally realize it, they give me half used cans of pyrodex which we shoot in our noise making cannons. : )
@@tomcurran1538 I use real blackpowder for my caplock too. can't beat it
User error.
Thanks for an informative video. I, too, must be a flintlock lottery winner. I have both Thompson Center and Pedersoli factory made flinters that are quite reliable, and have been for years. Your point about maintenance is paramount to good performance. So is consistency and proper flint alignment. Lastly, I never fill the pan over 1/2 full. This gives me a good flash, less fouling, and a bit faster lock time. The pan being full only to near the top of the vent means that the first bit of ignition is going in the vent immediately.
I use a popular 54 cal flint. I bought it used and was ready to give it away. An old timer spent a few hours with me and taught me how to load both the barrel and pan. In 30 years, I have never had any of the issues you showed. I have killed more than my share of (legal) deer.
You won the flint lock lottery 🎉
You are one of the lucky ones. Manny of us, unfortunately, are not so lucky and experience exactly what is discussed in this video. It happened to me with both my early 90s made in Spain Traditions Heritage Hawken and my recently purchased Pedersoli hunter flintlock.
There are major differences in the grades of mass produced flinters also. Lyman GPR vs Traditions anything. The Lymans are NOT as fast as a custom, but they can be reliable. My GPR was the gateway drug to a custom to a builder where I really did win the lottery. I think I have the last one he made.
Ty for the tutorial
I have a Lyman great plains, 50cal flinter. I've had that gun for 30 some years and it has never failed on me, fast lock time and extremely accurate. I believe they were made in Italy. Perhaps I got lucky with that production non custom model.
apparently, you got one without issues.
I have a 2017 GPR in .54, made by Investarms, Italy, and I've only gotten one flash in the pan. I know that duelist1954 has noted problems with Pedersoli's flash hole bring mis-aligned. So, I do agree somewhat with this argument.
For those with Traditions flinters, you can get a drop-in lock replacement.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 apparently they've never shot a Jim chambers lock!
I got rid of my Lyman never looked back. So tired of slow discharge. 🐌
I had an old CVA made in Spain, probably from the 70's , sadly it was lost to me in a burglary. But it was a sure fire rifle, I never once had a misfire. It was a reproduction 45 caliber Kentucky style rifle, and probably was a kit that someone had put together because it wasn't quite 100% perfect but probably about as good as I would have done myself. I loved that rifle and would like to have an interaction with whoever committed that burglary because I now have some black powder pistols that are designed for such an occasion.
Excellent video. I had this very same experience and it almost killed my enthusiasm for shooting traditional muzzleloaders. I did extensive research and taught myself how to shoot, but after some initial success, which was extremely satisfying, I started encountering these very same issues with my Traditions Hawken and Pedersolli flintlock. Thank you for bringing light to this systemic problem in the traditional black powder firearm industry. The mass produced guns are good to learn on and to determine whether the sport is for you, but a custom rifle is the way to go for any serious shooting and hunting.
I have a CVA mountain rifle. A Pedersoli Pennsylvania Blue Ridge and a Traditions mountain rifle all of which are flintlock. They all work great.
I got several "cva" but they did require a lot of tuning
Just got a cap lock 45 cal cva mountain pistol, I assume it was a kit from the 70s or 80s. Not positive. One of my favorites of all of my weaponry, so fun to shoot. When I'm a bit more seasoned I'll definitely get some flintlocks.
I have a Thompson Center Pennsylvania Hunter. Seems like a quality gun. I love the balance and feel of it. Had to replace the frizen with a hardened one, because it seems the originals are too soft. Most problems I have experienced with it are largely due to my errors- cleaning, cheap flints,etc. Would love to afford a custom gun, but don’t have that kinda scratch. Good video. Always something more to learn! Thank you👍🇺🇸❤️
Most of those frizzens are only surface hardened.
I graduated from trials and tribulations to straight black powder, a good flint, and loading habits that allow fast ignition. My rifle is a Pennsylvania Hunter, not the best lock but pretty reliable indeed, so I can't complain. Thanks for the informative videos! If I ever buy that .54 it'll have a good lock I promise!!
I got into BP 3 years ago. I now have 3 rifles & 3 pistols but no flintlocks. Been tempted to get an import , but now I'm going to keep saving an get a good one. Thanks for this video , lots of good info.
Thank you.
"A good one." Most builders are garbage. Ask them to prove how reliable their actions are before you order a build, see if they take you up on it.
I have a traditions ky rifle. I had a lot of fun with it and thats how I learned. I now have an investarms hawken in flintlock that i built as a kit. I love it! I also put on modern custom sights that gives it more of a sportsman rifle feel. It seems that once you go higher on the quality the less likely you are to go any less. Next one I'll go for is a custom flintlock. I got a shop near me that sells good ones. Great video and well informative. I enjoyed listening to your input.
Thank you
Great information for new folks. I wanted a flintlock really badly & after reading everything I could, I went with a builder, although not well known, rather than an import. My Lehigh Valley-inspired rifle has a Larry Zorn/Albrecht lock that is very fast & has worked flawlessly, albeit for a price. It quickly went to my favorite rifle, so much so that I've moved away from modern weapons & have bought solely BP guns the past 2 years. I want to find a quality flint pistol to go with it but that has proven difficult (ie expensive) to find. My collection of BP revolvers has grown quickly.
A side note, I think the wood is better on quality builds vs imports as well. Builder rifles are nothing short of impressive works of art, as yours is too.
Most do not realize why a custom pistol costs as much as a rifle. They require the same number of parts and the same work as building a rifle.
1.25x speed. Thank me later
Thanks!
Thank you!!!!!!!
Thanks
Your right. Thanks.
Best comment!
Your informational video's are very well put together, this is the second one I have watched.
I used to compete in MLAIC competitions with originals shotguns. My flintlock was a Mortimer
and when I purchased it it would not work properly (which I could see and that's why I got it cheep)!
The problem was it had been converted to percussion and then back again to flint.
The problem was the position of the touch hole, it was TOO LOW and the ignition was like a fuse.
I installed a "White Lightning" touch hole in the correct position and problem solved.
Because I practised so much, I used a lot of powder, so I sieved my powder, then used the
finer powder that fell out of the sieve as priming powder, but I also bought Swiss priming powder for competitions.
This fine powder can be a problem if left in the main charge because is reduces the air around the powder kernels and slows the flash down.
I was surprised you didn't mention roller frizzen’s!
Yet again, your presentation on muzzle loading has to be about one of the best I have watched, really good and sound information. THANX.
You are right about the finer powder in the main charge slowing ignition. My mentor always sieved his powders. He shot State and National competitions. I have noticed faster ignition with 2-f powder as the main charge rather than 3-f in flintlocks. I believe that's because of extra air space between kernels. I am still undecided about rollers on the frizzen. I am not yet convinced that those actually make the lock faster.
Thanks for your comments!
If you look at the later finner flintlocks being made back then, they are all roller.
The stricking position on the frizzen is important too, I was told 3/4 of the way up!
Not the top or mid way but 3/4.
My 14ga Mortimer flinter was just great; It would even go off upside down and in the wet too.
Keep up with your video's as they will be very useful to those just starting and the intermediate shooter.
Thanks for the informative video. I've never owned an import flintlock but never heard good things about them. I've only begun with flintlocks about 5 year ago building a .50 southern rifle. I was initially doubtful of flintlock reliability but on first shooting it, the Siler lock was and has been flawless.
I have never seen an imported flintlock used in any competition at any level. But percussion rifles, I would say half or more use imports. I have won with them and lost to them.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I honestly don't think it's mass production that's causing the, hell, based upon those plug shots, I can't even call it quality control issues, but instead ignoring quality overall. For crying out loud, we mass produce microscopes for labs without problems and we have children's toy microscopes that reflect the same lack of quality issues and fade from the market relatively quickly. Of course, more microscopes are bought for kids than flintlocks are bought overall, so fading away unfortunately doesn't happen.
If I were to mass produce flintlocks, if I found a barrel where the plug was obstructing the touch hole, someone would be wearing that barrel around their head like hat! Quality and safety go hand in hand and if it's worth making, it's worth making it safe and properly.
Springs and well, the entire lock assembly, cutting corners for cost. :/
Still, making that right would be about a day of cussing over a forge... *
*Patton style cussing, not any of that pansy Navy kind of cussing!
Liked the video, but I have to add my 2 cents... I recently fired about 50 shots from my Pedersoli Brown Bess without a single malfunction - didn't hit my steel target every time, but that's another story! Similarly, I put about 40 rounds through my Pedersoli Blue Ridge with nary a problem - hit the steel almost every time with this one! Both locks function great, but I do wipe the flint with alcohol about every 10 - 15 shots and ensure a clear touch hole with every shot.
Congratulations! I hope those guns continue to work for you.
My opinion on Pedersoli; If you must have an imported gun, those are probably your best option. The only Pedersoli I own is a Charles Moore percussion pistol which needed repairs to correct a tang that would not fit the hooked breach and misaligned barrel / tang inletting due to that problem. I can't recommend a product which needs repairs to correct factory mistakes right out of the box. And those needed repairs were beyond the skills of most shooters.
Yes, I got a bad one off their assembly line which quality control missed. Apparently, you were more fortunate.
The higher priced Pedersoli guns; For just a little bit more money you can purchase a custom built gun with better parts and it will be historically correct. If one can afford the top end Pedersoli guns he can afford a custom built gun.
I have no interest in what type of gun someone else wants. I won't criticize anyone who participates in rendezvous and shooting matches because of their equipment. I am not a "stitch counter". As long as one is safe, and showing effort to fit into the time period they are welcome at my camp.
I offer my opinions / experience for the benefit of others. Knowledge and instruction on traditional muzzleloading is not easy to research. My propose is to make that more easily accessible.
Thank you for your comments.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I have a Lyman great plains. It's getting the replacement lock. I've always shot Siler locks. That spring set up on the Lyman is just ridiculous. It works most of the time, and not consistently. Traditions or cva tbey need to be plasma cut up and thrown away.
I've tried all I know and you still can't can't them to work well enough to bother with of them.
Hence I'm getting the L n R replacement for the Lyman.
Personally I dig tbe Siler golden Era. Roller bearing on the Frizzen, as if the Siler large lock isn't fast enough the golden Era is wicker fast. Flintlock aren't unreliable. People buy junk. Problem is, I need a basic swamped Colerain 50 cal cast off barn gun with a Siler lock. Find me a decent one made for under 3k! I had to sell my good stuff.
So I think the Lyman with the l n r lock should be ok. It shoots ok, and it goes off. Tbe delay is not acceptable. And it does take a bit too much priming powder to go off.
Versus a quality lock which takes a smidgen to touch off.
It'll get me through two years until I get a proper barn gun. I'm not concerned with beauty, I just need a cherry stocked (I lived where black cherry is logged) silver golden Era lock, cast off stock, double set triggers, Colerain (I know Scott, so no one will convince me to go Rice they're nice too but I buy from those I know) and perhaps a 38 inch barrel or 40 inch barrel. We hunt hard. So why go over the top beauty wise?
THE KEY IS FLASH HOLE ALIGNMENT AND A QUALITY LOCK!
I agree. You don't need (or want) a beauty queen to hunt with. The ornate, highly decorated rifles were rare in their time. They were not used hard which is why they survived to be in museums and private collections today. The plain everyday rifles were used until they were worn out. Fewer of them exist now.
Bout time! The music is actually a valuable contribution to the overall video.
I happened across a Traditions flinter last summer. This was a cheap plastic stocked junk rifle. The surprise is that this rifle shoots VERY WELL.
The only misfires that I've had have been directly attributeable to my own errors. Either a dirty lock, or over used Flint and in need of knapping. True it's a millisecond slower than your rifle but it's consistent and definitely not slow.
I completely trust this cheap rifle. Even more than my old "reliable" Navy Arms Harpers Ferry. Which I paid a LOT of money for 30 years ago.
And I have run it past 100 shots in the last couple months.
Still shooting the original Flint although it it has been trimmed. A couple times.
Thank you , got a few black powder percussion , but learning something about flint lock is appreciated.
BRILLIANT..if you haven't seen it..Gunsmithing of Williamsburg, it was filmed in 69 and is in my humble opinion superb..a rifle made from scratch from start to finish.🇬🇧
I have. It is inspiring.
Thanks for the informative video. Your comments mirror my early experience with a Pedersoli Kentucky Rifle in 50 cal. I was lucky to get ignition about 50% of the time shooting real black powder. Some of this was no doubt due to my lack of experience. However I came across some information provided by Hogdon Powder Co. for those using Pyrodex. They suggested using 5-10 grs of 4F down the barrel first before the main charge. This upped my ignition rate to about 85%, and remember I was always using real black powder, so my ignition problems couldn't be attributed soley to my loading procedure.
At least you didn't give up out of frustration. Thanks for your comments.
Skill issue. The gun was fine.
I wish I found you during the global shutdown. New to flintlock I acquired a priceless education after I procured a Traditions Pirate pistol to occupy my overabundance of spare time. Right out of the box the barrel was full of metal chips, the pan slightly obscured the flash hole, the frizzen spring was TOOOOO firm, and the trigger pull took Heman a double fist to touch off. A frustration driven tare down, no longer concerned with damaging a new pistol I de-burred & polished all the lock components using the dremmel and stones. A few more attempts to operate the pistol I grabbed the dremmel once again and lowered and widened the groove in the flash pan placing the flash hole in the center of the trough. Still failing to function consistently I lightened the frizzen spring with channel locks. I may get a fail to fire 1 in 10 shots. It is now more reliable than my cap lock TC Hawken. Twist rate, pistol primers, that's all another story.
Yes, nothing I know is more frustrating than trying to make a cheap flintlock work.
I got into flintlock this year in PA to fill my tags. I'm hooked now. Probably exactly what they had in mind with the flintlock season. I feel like jeremiah johnson with my hawkin, I love this thing.
It is addictive.
Really impressed by the very obvious expertise in this video. I have no experience with firearms, but my boss in Paris …a Frenchman…did reprimand me for using foul language when I described a situation , as a cockup. It took me a long time to understand why he objected to this very common expression. Only when I googled it, did I discover it comes from the cock feathers on arrows, and has carried on into terminology for flintlocks…..I think 🤔
As a newbie to muzzleloading both Flintlock and percussion, I learned a lot, thank you.
I hope it was helpful.
Excellent video, thanks for the insight. I'm an old shooter but I'm only now wanting to give the flintlock a shot. I'm a bit torn between imported (value) and custom (quality) at the moment. I get it, I truly do, it's not much different than when I purchase a "regular smokeless firearm", you usually get what you pay for. It's just that the price is drastically different (up to 10X) and I'm still hoping I will enjoy the hobby itself. Tough decisions ahead but you have given me a lot to consider. Thank you very much. Best wishes.
Boy - Was that ever a good lesson in flintlocks. Thanks for the useful and interesting information.
Thank you
This is good information. I don't yet have a flintlock. I'll choose carefully.
I have an old CVA Mountain Rifle built from a kit with an L&R Manton lock. The only time it misfired on a deer was due to having the flint misaligned. It went off the second try and killed an 8 pt. I always pick the frizzen hole and wipe the pan, frizzen and flint lightly with alcohol before using. A few simple habits will make it reliable.
L&R makes good locks and those old CVA barrels shoot well.
I have a Lyman Great Plains flintlock.....my only flintlock. Haven't shot it in some time. When I first got it, there was definitely a learning curve and a lot of tinkering to get it to shoot. And shoot it did! Have never hunted with it or competed but I know, with practice, I could dial that rifle in again and have confidence in it. I know it's not a custom lock, but for a production rifle it was well made. I have had it for about 15+ years. Maybe they were made in the states then or at least in Italy to Lyman's specs.
Informative video. Thanks for sharing..............
A lot of tinkering to get it to shoot. This is my point.
Thanks for the amazing video and helpful information. A few years back I got a musket from India just for reenacting with blanks. I drilled the vent hole well and the frizzen threw good sparks from the factory. It looks some work with a knowledgable friend of mine to re harden the sear that had managed to bend itself just under the weight of pulling the trigger ;D. We naturally made sure it was safe to shoot at that point and determined it was, but would never use it for hunting or target work. Ive put a couple thousand shots through but only blanks, still puts a shower of sparks. I think its good for the purposes I use and the price I got it for. As long as I keep it clean I get 1 misfire every 20-25 shots. I think Italian imports aren't worth the price you pay and will be getting a good hand made in America flintlock for hunting in the near future, probably a Lancaster. One friend of mine told me he got 1/10 misfires on his pedersoli Kentucky and thinks that's reliable, I know that's ridiculous as my India Charleville for half the price is more reliable after 2000+ shots. All in all I think the gun gave me good knowledge of these weapons which will be helpful as I move on. I tell people don't buy these unless your prepared to do some work on them!
I agree that they have a place and use. Just not hunting and competition.
Brass Turtle (Crane Creek Cache) made me a custom (ground up) 1824 Barnett Tombstone Fox Trade Gun in 58 caliber smoothbore back in 1981. Never failed and fast. Glad you touched on flash hole placement (critical to fast transfer).
Would love to see a video on flint knapping, another critical skill.
I can knap them back to sharp, but never had the resources to learn to make them from a big node of flint.
Nice video, informative. I wholeheartedly agree. I build what I shoot with so they work as they should.
Very valuable knowledge. I won the lottery with my rifle but we will see if it lasts the rest of my life without any serious problems
I have Thompson and Lyman flintlock muzzleloader's. There is nothing wrong with their locks. I found after 37 years of flintlock hunting that the touch hole is very important. I like the one that takes the allen wrench with the bigger hole. I use 4f in the pan. Here in PA flintlocks are huge because we have a flintlock only deer season. I also use a cow ear when hunting. Gotta keep the powder dry. I do know that CVA and Tradition has a terrible spring system on the lock. I have 3 Lyman rifles and they all work very good. I put venison on the table every year with my Deer Stalker 54 caliber. I have 9 flintlock's but that 54 is a deer hammering beast.
My Thompson always perform well.I even have a couple of india flintlocks from military heritage in canada.They needed alot of work smoothing the springs and drilling the vent hole but for anyone wanting a good flintlock just starting out this is a good way to go.And at just under 600 dollars they are well worth it..Theres plenty of great youtube videos explaining the procedure mardras arsenal ...murphys muskets and 11bangbang all have great info on the affordable and well made copies.You can also learn alot on a website called muzzleloading forums although its a challenge to wade thru the haters who feel only 3000 dollar custom guns can be used for shooting.Jim kibler makes a great product but if you are not a professional gunsmith your results may be frustrating and those kits are 1200 dollars.
My introductory into muzzleloaders is the ubiquitous Traditions Hawken Woodsman Flintlock in .50 ca. I got it to learn with and I've been learning with it. I've had to replace the mainspring and when I had her disassembled, I noticed that it could use some finishing work which I did to give the lock a tighter fit.
I recently had a couple of flash in the pans with it and worked with some buds online to diagnose the problem and sorted it out. When she's right, she's RIGHT. The response on that ignition is spot on. I just learned that everything has to be perfect for that to happen and I've had to learn how to clean her differently than my modern firearms.
But that's what it's for, for me to practice with, to learn the mechanicals of the action, to work on my form with and to learn how to tool. Little by little, I've been making her "mine" more and more. Don't get me wrong, she came from the factory shooting right, but a little use and the quirks began to pop up AND some of it came from my poor habits with it (storage, not cleaning enough, etc...). But I learned and it's made me a better caretaker of my other firearms.
I didn't get a flintlock to hunt deer with (even though that's all I want it for), I got it to teach me to be a better firearms owner because there's practically zero room for failure or laziness with them. They are the most finicky things one can shoot. There are no shortcuts with a flintlock.
For $500, what can one expect? It's a beginner traditional muzzleloader and I got her fully knowing that someday, I'd be "investing" in something grander later on once I've learned the basics with this one. Eventually, I'll own a Hawken flintlock that costs 3X what a mortgage is. Until then, I'll keep learning with this obe so that when do own an heirloom quality flintlock, the weak point in owning that piece will have already been sorted out (namely, "me").
Thanks a lot for this video. It's great stuff and I'm a smarter man for having watched it (again and again and again).
--Yankee
Good for you! You are more dedicated than most.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Thanks. You know what they say, "it's not the arrow, it's the indian" to which I add..."and when it is the arrow, it's up to the indian to make it right."
I remember a Flintlock reliability contest at an event 'Feast of the Hunters Moon' many years ago. There were around 20 shooters, most with import flintlocks. Some rifles, some smooth bores, some military muskets. At least two shooters had custom made flinters, made in the USA. Blanks only, no bullets or shot. When the order to fire was given, everyone had to fire. Any gun that didn't fire, was out. After less than ten shots, only those two fellows were left. After over twenty shots, they were asked to turn their rifles upside down, the pans towards the ground. After forty shots the contest was declared a draw. : )
Before I got my first flintlock I witnessed a flintlock match where the rifle had to be held upside down, above your head and hit the target. It was raining. The rifles were loaded from the bag. In the open, no overhead cover. Every one of these rifles fired without a hiccup. All were custom rifles with custom locks.
I was fully convinced, flintlocks are reliable. Provided you have a good lock and you know how to operate them.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 well, they had to both kill dinner and serve as military weapons. Unreliable military weapons are the tools of the losing side.
Given what I've saw on the range, I'd put a quality flintlock with good black powder just below a modern center fire military round out of a military rifle in reliability. That's pretty much, if one is waiting to count malfunctions and misfires, it's gonna be a really, really long day.
"Custom made" means nothing considering 90+% of builders know next to nothing. So much ego and bullshit, self-proclaimed experts who really are little more than kitchen table wanna-be gunsmiths, in the traditional muzzleloader world.
Good information. Thank you. I can attest to what you're saying but not with a factory made gun. The first flintlock I bought was a used custom made gun I bought at a Gunsmoke and for which I payed a pretty substantial price. It had a good siler lock and a quz.ity barrel. It was only later and after some research that I found the gun had been put together by somebody who knew nothing about what he was doing. He had set the touch hole so low in the pan that he had had to grind out the bottom of the pan with a fuse like indentation leading to the touch hole. When it fired, if it fired, it hissed like a firecracker and you'd have time to count five before the gun went off. Another thing he did was to set the touch hole too far back so that it touched the breech plug just as you described and he had attempted to fix the problem just as you described and illustrated. What I had was good quality parts turned into junk. My advice would be to do your research, learn how a good flintlock is supposed to look and function before you buy a flintlock then either buy a good one from a maker with a good reputation or gain enough knowledge to put one together the right way.
Absolutely!
Good information, thank you from Jacksonville, Fla.
From the folk I've talked to, and what I've seen myself, to overcome that flash issue with imported muskets, specifically Indian muskets, is check the vent going from the pan to the chamber and make sure it's not teeny-tiny, i don't know the exact size needed, but make sure it's wide enough to let a good spark through. And also harden the frizzen to make sure you get a good spark on the imports
Wow! Great video! So many truths exposed… Flintlocks ARE excellent rifles. They would not have been used for 200+ years if they WEREN’T excellent. But they have to be tuned to work correctly.
For my ‘good brand’ Italian lock, I had to:
- polish ever contact surface including the faceplate where springs rub
- deepen the pan since the touch hole was half covered by it
- Drill out the butt plug that partially blocked the vent hole (like shown in the video)
- taper the touch hole vent so heat would be directed to the charge
- case-harden some of the parts to prevent wear (a file test shows the soft parts)
- Grind the frizzen to match the pan’s shape
- rough up the face of the frizzen
All of this took me years to figure out. But when done, I had a real shooter that I sold to a friend (without feeling guilty), and he is still using it!
If you can’t afford a good lock and have to buy cheap, it isn’t the end of the world. But you best have a Dremel tool, polishing compound, and lots of patience.
You persisted until you made it work. Too many don't have the know how and just give up. Good for you!
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 im no engineer but it doesnt seem that complicated as long as you put in the time and effort
I have a Jim Chamber's Silers lock on my rifle and it works perfect every time.
I shoot left handed and 10 years ago, wanted to build one from a kit, so for a while my only known option was Dixie Gunworks, Investarms. I figure it was a practice run. Haven't been able to get it to fire yet and went to caplocks. Caplocks seem easier for cheap guns to shoot. Didn't know about Jim Chambers at the time. Looks like I'll be ordering one from there next and do it right this time.
Great video thank you so much. I learned so many things. Good job.
Went through a lot of cheap ones in the late 70s and you are so right .
That is the same as my experience with them.
Very interesting. As a layman I would have thought that speed of ignition from the pan charge igniting, to the main charge going off would be down to two factors, one the quality, grain size and dryness of the powder and secondly how that flash propagates through the touch hole.
I believe in some of the quality flintlock guns they had a small antichamber before the main charge the purpose being to ignite the main charge with some force this perhaps aiding more complete combustion and a faster ignition time.
I was very impressed with how fast your own flintlock was, almost instant, very good.
I have not shot a muzzle loader in 30 years but did own a Mississippi Springfield percussion rifle in the past.
Hangfires and misfires were always down to damp powder and or fouling. In the UK at certain times of the year it is not always so easy to "Keep one's powder dry" :)
Flintlocks are a complex mechanism. The mechanics have to be right, the cleaning and maintenance has to be right, The flint has to be right, and the shooter has to understand the proper way to load and prime it. It is a steep learning curve and it helps to have an expert mentor along the way. There are not many written sources for all that information.
I recently got my hands on a T/C Hawken flintlock in 50 cal. Can't wait to play with it.
Good luck, have fun.
I have had good luck with my stainless firestorm. Ive had a very nice custom flintlock, but growing up in oregon, i really appreciate the stainless steel. I was fortunate to have some really knowledgeable old timers teach me what took them decades to learn. Heres what they said:
Use real black powder, the substatutes are less suseptible to bad weather, and some are even less corrosive, but they have a slightly higher ignition temp, and will never be as reliable and quick of ignition as real black powder in a flintlock.
Imports are fine, but you might need to take the frizen to a real blacksmith or a real gunsmith, if it doesnt work well out of the box, treat yourself and have them do a trigger job while they are in there, if you dont have the skills to do it youself.
They almost never do a decent barrel crowning job on mussle loaders. Doing that will make a big accuracy improvement. townsend whelens book on gunsmithing has some low cost low tech ways to do that. Its out of print but i was able to get it through library loan when i was a broke student.
A bad lock will improve your trigger pulling technique, if you flinch a bunch with a flash in the pan, youll know, hah.
You dont fill up the pan with powder, it shouldnt cover the hole, lots of newbies think its a trail of powder from the pan to the main charge that fires the gun, but when its set up right, its the super heated air above the burning pan powder that travels on a shock wave from the explosion that travels down the touch hole and fired the gun. That is the secret for reliable ignition, and blazing fast lock time.
A platnum touch hole liner is worth it, i got mine at a rendezvous for under $20. The hole is so small, it doesnt take hardly any corrosion to block 3/4 of it off. And you dont want to just enlarge that hole cause that bleeds off the speed of your projectile, and with the rainbow trajectory they have vs, a 30-06 or something, you dont want to give up sny more velocity, hah.
Really informative video, first time watcher, and I have learned about 90% of the content just by time and experience.
I like your instruction and information that brings the content information down to the level of the interested viewer. I have been taught as an instructor to always try to instruct at the lowest comprehension and experience level of the listener.
If I could pass on some simple advice for any of your future videos. Please use more visual aids when you are speaking about a specific subject, such as the alignment of the flash hole with the lock pan. Perhaps a large simple sharpie marker drawing of the sear nose wear good and damaged, or how the double trigger needs to be tuned in a visual aid would allow your viewers to understand and absorb your topic.
Thank you for presenting your knowledge to make the sport more enjoyable.
Thanks for your suggestions, I will keep it in mind.
Good video. Thanks for bringing this information to light.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the video... I picked up a few hints from it.
I have been messing with flinters for a decade or three now. My present one is a Pedersoli .50 calibre.. The lock parts are all very hard.... good start... although the sear spring would have done duty in a small vehicle, which gave the lock a heavy 8lb let off in spite of surprisingly correct angles on sear and bent. Slimming that sear spring somewhat backed it down to a very crisp 3.5lbs (not a set trigger). The only other fault I could find with the rifle was that the touch hole was very near the bottom of the pan, which was itself very shallow. It tend to hang up a bit with even the tiniest bit too much prime powder. It was the work of a few minutes to deepen the pan to correctly relate it to the touch hole, which solved the problem. Ignition has always been fast and reliable, although I did turn up a touch hole liner with a more 'venturi' shape on the inside (314 stainless). Happily the touch hole is well clear of the breech plug, so no issues there. Both of those small modifications to lock and touch hole seemed to speed things up a bit... noticeably so, but not dramatically.
I got my clues about touch hole to pan relationship from an 18th century treatise that I found in my local library some 30 years ago, can't remember who wrote it now, but back then the flintlock was all they had, and they knew how to make them run. There's a lot of modern "lore" about flinters as well as percussion revolvers that is largely untrue.... one does wonder where these ideas originate.
It was nice to have my own researches and findings confirmed by your video, thanks again.
Thank you for your comments. I agree on the "lore" concerning black powder muzzleloaders. A lot of misinformation has been passed down and some still believed today despite being proven wrong with modern high speed photography.
There are very few written accounts on how civilians loaded the rifle. It seems the method was passed down verbally until cartridge rifles took over and then that knowledge was lost. When interest in muzzleloaders returned, much "folk lore" and superstition was accepted as common knowledge. It takes some study to sort through it all.
One piece of lore that really bothers me is people saying you have to grease the chambers on a percussion revolver, or else it would "chain fire" more than one chamber. The only way that is going to happen is if you use very undersized projectiles to the point the rammer isn't needed to press in the balls, or maybe don't put caps on all the nipples... I have greased the chambers on my revolvers maybe three times, and fired them hundreds of times, and have never had a chain fire. I think chain fires are highly overexaggerated and would happen more often in the fog of war, possibly being supplied undersized ammo.
@@sethmullins8346
Proper fitting ball and caps = no chain fires.
A lubed felt wad or lube on the bullet help keep fouling soft. No need to fill the chamber with crisco. It just makes a bigger mess.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Ideally, a combustible paper cartridge with a grease cookie under the bullet. I love my paper cartridges.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983t55 h
In the 1st incident, he had a dull flint. One must keep the flint sharp. The flint should be sharpened every 3 or 4 shots. 2nd, you get a 'wick affect' from that powder is against the touch hole, not away from the touch hole. I always use '1' powder. I use the powder in the pan and the barrel. As the author of the video stated, if fired correctly, a flintlock is as reliable as any other gun, except in the rain, and will fire almost instantaneous.
My Lyman Deerstalker goes bang every time ?
Nice video. I bought a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield a few years ago and have been having a hard time getting the first shot off. I'm talking about shooting 10 musket caps and no discharge of the rifle. I would then take out the nipple, pour some powder in and then would get a shot to go off. I always suspected that the breach plug was blocking the ignition.
A lot of things can be done wrong when producing flintlocks.
I’m just beginning to dabble in the idea of muzzle loaders, and flintlocks in particular, so I really never thought about how the mechanism has to be balanced. Cheap parts, poorly machined is nothing new, but the idea of various springs needing to work together, with the weight of parts is interesting. Gives me some new respect for old time gun makers.
I’ve hunted with a custom flintlock for more then 50 years…. Custom Southern Tennessee Mountain Rifle, Siler Lock, .54 cal Green River Rifle works barrel and some beautiful curly maple stock. On a very rare occasion, I get a hang fire, due too my laziness, and not making sure my touch hole isn’t clean. But extremely rare. Also have a very good touch hole liner, which also helps on ignition!
Sounds like you are doing it right. Spread your knowledge.
I bought a collected custom parts kit for a Hawken Flintlock (90% inlet stock). They said they assembled the best and most accurate parts of a desired gun and make a do -it-yourself kit. The build was easier than expected but the lock was iffy. I sent it to a locksmith (muzzle-loading mag ad). He said lock's geometry was off. From what I observe, he lengthened the throw of the dog by adding a piece of metal to its internal bar. (I've no idea the correct terms here.) Since then it works very reliably. All exactly as described in the video.
Poor geometry is a common issue. You won't have that with a Chambers or other custom lock. Some parts kits will allow you to substitute a Chambers lock, others won't. I glad you got it working right.
Good informative video, as a life long BP shooter your video on the flintlock and reliability is hard to argue with. I shoot BP trap and use a percussion action made by Pedersoli, with a 1,000 round plus in a season the lock has held up well for several years. I would love a custom made firearm such as yours but cost is the main distractor.
I've had no issues with their percussion locks. But their quality control lets some bad stuff get out the door. Inexcusable when their prices are so close to that of a custom built gun.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983
Thank you for the reply, and yes if I had the availability for a custom made rifle it would be on the drawing board right now. Unfortunately living north of the border is very limiting to BP builders. We rely on reproductions or antiques for our needs.
I have a traditions Springfield Hawken that simply would not work until I opened up the touch hole. I eventually replaced the liner with a white lighting and replaced the lock with an L&R. It now shoots reliably, and is quite accurate.
Yes! A custom lock makes all the difference!!!
Thanks for sharing! I have a growing interest in flintlocks, especially M1777 models, but I have no clue if they're even remotely suitable for shooting at the range.
Great informative video. I've been shooting percussion rifles for several years but want to get started with Flintlocks. Until I saw this video I wasn't aware of some of these things. In my research I am a bit unsure with all the options where I would purchase a custom rifle, any suggestions?
If possible, find a muzzleloading club close to you and visit some of their shooting events. Contacts for builders, used rifles, and much assistance can be found there.
Also, look and the Track of the Wolf website to get some ideas.
Enjoyed watching. thanks for sharing. I learned a few good points.. I was curious if you clean you poke you vent after every shot or ever 2-3.
I use the vent pick every time I load the rifle.
Another alternative that always worked for me is quill or use a round toothpick in the vent before loading.
It will unblock the vent and keep the pan and barrel powder clear. You then will get a flash straight into the main charge.
Thanks for the great info , going hunting upstate Pa. Today. Thanks Again
Good luck on your hunt.
Yup ! Put a L&R lock on an old cva Kentucky rifle I built when I was a teenager. Completely changed the rifle ! With mine, I also noticed the vent screw was longer than the thickness of the barrel so it protruded well into the chamber. I cut it so it was flush with the barrel thickness and also coned it out slightly. I tell people curious about buying flint locks that every one of them has a different personality. The shape of the flint, angle, amount of prime is different for every rifle. Once you understand what it requires, it'll be dead reliable. English blacks all the way ;-)
Yes, there are so many details in a flintlock rifle that must be done correctly for it to be reliable.
I looked at a Lyman flintlock this past weekend which was giving the shooter fits. It wasn't sparking enough to ignite the prime every time. The hammer dimension was wrong for the lock. Even with his flint bevel down, the flint was contacting the frizzen about 3/4 's of the way down. Much too low. It simply was not scraping enough of that frizzen face to throw the quantity of sparks necessary. At half cock, he had a large gap between the edge of the flint and the frizzen face. This was with a new, full length flint.
A longer cock might fix the problem but fix that and other problems will likely show up that went unnoticed before.
that's interesting, and there's a lot to learn in it. My Pedersoli flinter, along with my Track of the Wolf buffalo flinter have never had any of these issues, except when I tried Pyrodex. then, I couldn't get it to fire at all. Turns out Pyrodex has a higher flash point than black. But like I said, my lock times are excellent, and I've never had any issues with either of my flint guns, and neither are anywhere near as expensive as a custom gun. Not, mind you, that I wouldn't like to have one, but simply can't justify the expense.
You are correct about Pyrodex. Glad your rifles work well, hope they continue to do so.
Friends, this is good advice.
That's why it's good to start out with a percussion rifle. You learn to manage you rifle and figure out how to solve problems.
The Italian guns are pretty good and should last a long time. Even original guns needed a new a frizzen or some lock work from time to time.
The steel in the Spanish guns tends to be a bit too soft. I wore the lock out of a Spanish Hawkin in about four years of heavy use.
I clean and oil my locks regularly and put a dab of gun-slick grease on the friction bearing surfaces.
Even a good lock will wear and have a short life if it's run dry too long..
Occasionally you will find a flintlock with the pan not centered on the touch-hole. Maybe the touch-hole is too low or a little off to the right or left.
What you can do is remove the lock and use a dremel tool and grinding burr to remove a little metal on one side of the pan or the other or deepen the pan a little to get the pan centered on the touch-hole better. Most locks have enough metal around the pan to allow for that. Centering things up will improve ignition.
Another thing is keep the touch-hole clean. I like to take a two inch piece of the largest bronze wound guitar string and glue it into a bit of deer horn and attach it to my strap on my shooting bag.
Bronze is softer than steel so it won't enlarge your touch-hole and the ribbed surface does a good job of rasping away the fouling for consistent ignition.
A custom gun is a very nice thing.
It's a shame that by the time we have the disposable income to buy a custom rifle we are so old we can't see as well as when we were younger.
Kind of like a 70 year old man driving a Corvette.
Thanks for the video.
As shown by the guy trying to shoot his flintlock rifle, the majority of the time, the lock ignited the priming powder in the pan. So, even though the locks are of lesser quality, they are not really the main issue. The main issue is the internals of the barrel close to the tough hole of imported guns. The majority of these guns has a very narrow channel up to an inch long in the breech plug in the center. This long narrow channel is then drilled from the side and a touchhole liner is put in. The problem is, that the appropriate size powder (FFG for .50) will not easily enter into this narrow channel. It tends to arc in the channel and thus will not get closely to the touchhole. This is especially true if the gun has been fired once and the narrow channel is a place where gunk can collect. Good luck getting powder next to the touchhole next time. If an imported barrel like this is cut off at the breech and a regular flint breech plug is installed with a proper touch hole liner, the gun will fire almost 100%. The OP is correct, that the lock quality is also not the best. That manifests itself in either poor sparking or short flint life or both. Bad geometry and unbalanced main and frizzen springs are the biggest issue there. But, if the internal barrel would be corrected by the manufacturers, the majority of these guns would be much more serviceable.
I rebuilt my old Pedersoli flintlock from 1993 into a "Lancaster Style rifle". The barrel was cut off and received a regular flint breech plug and a correctly installed touchhole liner.
I reused the old lock internals and just made a new lock plate. The gun went from "barely" firing a second shot to "firing each time" the flint was not worn down.
It now has an American made quality flintlock and now fires 99.99%. The 0.01% is when I screw up, lol.
With Kibler longrifle kits in existence, there is hardly a reason to buy any of these imported guns anymore. At least from a price point.
For the people on very low budgets under $1000. Look out for a used rifle with quality US parts. It may not be pretty, but it will shoot reliably.
If you think you are able to buy a flintlock for $500, think again and save up for something made with US parts.
I have a L&R flintlock and several TC, Lyman, and CVA flintlocks, all fire reliably. I would love a custom hand polished flintlock but cost is a huge determent. Many of the comments are for custom builders/buyers and that's fine. My TC Pennsylvania hunter is still going strong after 20+ years as is my full stock Hawken L&R flintlock that I built. Lots of good advise on here, however, don't be pushed to purchase a custom built rifle at $3-5K.
Interesting piece on merchandising. I've had a CVA and Jim Chambers flintlock. I've had some issues even with them. I remember thinking back in the 80s-90s that because most people who are shooting flintlocks are hobbyists, manufacturers' goals are to keep this in mind and allow quality to be low. Even the Chambers lock and parts had metallurgy quality issues. The trigger in particular was not hardened.
I don't doubt you, but yours is the first issue I have heard on a Chambers lock. Thanks for your comment.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Not so much the lock, but the trigger which was made by another manufacturer I believe. Another oddity about that rifle, the rifling's were not turned, they were straight.
thank you for the clip, I agree with you and often thought to myself in the past that italian replicas must be junk.....
greetimgs from Germany....
You're welcome!
I had an Investment Arms flintlock. It was one of those “May Pop” rifles. I tried lots of different things it was never reliable. I finally got fed up and dumped it. Regarding imported cap locks, I’ve had similar experiences with guns I shot weekly. Soft parts. My TCs however seem to hold up pretty good.
I have had a CVA Kentucky Rifle since 1976 and have had no major problems with it. I have even used Pyrodex, but only on the barrel have always used Black Powder in the pan.
Glad that is working for you. I've never had good results with pyrodex. We burn it up in our canons.
Great video. Thanks for this.
Glad you liked it!
Alot of guys drill out the flash hole alittle bit. I took my kibler out to the range and an old timer asked what i drilled it out to. I had no idea what he was talking about. He explained the whole thing. I dont have any of those problems...
That works for some. For others it only lowers their velocities.
I appreciate what he is saying . ..and agree with much of it . . . BUT . . .I own a Lyman Great Plains and I have two custom rifles I have built with Chambers's Siler locks. I have had misfires in all three, flash in the pans and "clatches" . . .they were due to simple reasons like a poor flint, dirty flint or dirty lock . . but the Lyman lock works just fine. . . The Chamber's lock is stiffer and a little faster, and yes, a "better" lock, but I've also taken deer with the Lyman and have full confidence in it. . .even though I bought it used. Someone can screw up a chambers lock or misplace the touch hole and have an unreliable rifle. I am currently building a rifle with an L&R lock. If I don't place it or the touchhole correctly, it won't fire well either. I've seen broken springs on L&R and chambers locks too btw. If one does not clear the touchole with a vent pick every shot, and swabs between shots as many shooters do . . .any rifle regardless of the lock will misfire. ( I am leary of many imports though - not Pedersoli they seem to be well liked.).
Well, yes. If your rifle was built by a "hack" a custom lock wont work either. Do your due diligence when selecting a rifle builder. There are a couple I hear nothing but bad news about. I don't want to name them in a public forum. Just, beware and check references.
Ya, "Ach du lieber, mein schatz"! WOW, mein freund! This is the most informative & wonderful video I've ever seen on the flintlock, bar none!!! I'm 82 now & been shooting black powder guns since about 1968. I own a gorgeous custom made 1793 John Philip Beck Flinter in .54 caliber, made for me by Monte Mandarino in about 1973 (advertised in Muzzleblasts Magazine way back then!). Douglas bbl, Siler lock, beautiful tiger Maple fullstock, fully carved! Any problems I've ever had with this lock I believe have been MY fault! What do you think of Siler locks? I assume they would probably be considered "semi-custom locks"! know you can't really reply though. As a retired technical illustrator, I would have loved to have drawn up some nice illustrations on some of the points you discussed on the flintlock, things that you couldn't see!! Cutaways, full sections, exploded views, etc. One thing I didn't see too well was a screwdriver slot on the touch hole liner (barely visible), to facilitate unscrewing the liner to add powder into the barrel. The liner shown was obviously filed flush with the barrel. Many great points you brought out about the differences between a good lock & a "cheapie"! I greatly admire your expertise! "Gesundheit"!
Thank you for the comments! I love those Beck style rifles too. My Siler lock is the Deluxe Siler made by Jim Chambers and polished further by my rifle builder. The lock on my Chief's gun is a semi-custom built by NorthStar West.
I actually prefer the vent liner filed smooth to the slotted liners. I don't remove the vent for cleaning.
I am not sponsored or obligated to anyone. Therefore, I can say what I think without worry of offending. My opinions are all mine based on experience and observation. I can tell it like I see it.
I have two flintlocks and love them but they do miss fire occasionally. I have been wanting to get this fixed.
I was at the range one day and watched a guy shooting a flintlock. Every shot went off. So, I approached him and asked what he had for a lock. "Siler" was his response. He asked me if I'd like to shoot it. "Sure," I said. So, I took an offhand shot at a steel plate 100 yards away. Dead center. Since then, I've had two TVM flintlocks built with Siler locks. Unfortunately, I haven't been to the range yet, but I'm confident those locks will work.
Yes, a Siler lock made by Jim Chambers is about as good as one can get.
I know a guy that still has one of those radioactive frizzens. it never failed him, for the few months he had it on, since then it has been in a lead case.
wow!
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 He was a PA champion a few times for muzzleloaders in the 80's. In his 70's and still uses the flintlocks with his grandkids (kid still can not keep up with him) He also finished the deer season last Monday. Me I just missed for the first time in 35 years now time to go out for the afternoon with possible showers.
I have fired original flintlock Pennsylvania rifles, percussion rifles, and shotguns. And many replicas, and have built a couple using new and original parts. I have taken an inexpensive lock and hardened the frizzen by wrapping in leather and aluminum foil and burying in my woodstove. Worked perfectly. But they will wear out and springs will break.
avoid all these problems just buy an AK.
Thanks for the video.
However my 2c and what is worth for.
I could also speculate that the powder in the pan was too much and burned instead of flashing ( guess why it is called flash hole )
Or wrong powder ( Pyrodex?)
It looks like it had the first couple of times good ignition but the powder burned slow and for a long time.
Not the problem a lock is causing.
So given the fact that many, many imported guns work flawlessly, I bet a lot of people will disagree with your arguments.
Domestic examples with the same problems will probably also reported
Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. The problem is many are formed on very small sample sizes and little experience.
Same could be said for inexpensive modern hunting rifles. Any competent gun smith will improve functionality by
Giving it a once over, to put it very simply. Figuring out the right load is everything. I have several import flintlocks and caplocks and everyone just took time to get to know. Flint size, powder size and load? You never know what truly works best in a gun till you try all that out. Muzzleload elk season here in southern oregon is very wet, rain every day this last season. I hunt it with an import flintlock with 4f priming powder because that's proven to be more reliable than a caplock with all the moisture. I'm sure tons of folks would disagree, but that's what works for me?
In other words all my guns ignite great when it's warm and dry, but cold and wets another story.
I can agree somewhat that a good gunsmith can often fix a cheaply made rifle. But add what you pay him to do so to the original cost of the cheep rifle and... Why not just buy a good rifle to start?
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I wish I could? Easier said than done unfortunately. The few resources in 250 mile radius don't have any unless you get really lucky. Otherwise I just have rely on track or dixie. In last couple of years there hasn't been much. I'd be spending a lot more money on an unknown.
In my experience failure to fire in a flintlock can be due to a number of issues. Flint is not sharp or positioned to strike the frizzen squarely. Pan improperly filled with powder-powder should not touch be in contact with the touch hole or you will get the fuse effect. Touch hole may be blocked-use a pick to clear the touch hole on every shot after loading. And of course poor construction and materials used in the lock itself. At first I only used 4F for the pan, but after running out of it found that the use of 3F that I also load with works just fine.
Super interesting! I learned a lot. Black powder neophyte.
Thank you
Looks like "Red's nek of the woods" was getting in come excellent training!! misfires suck, but I love how he has no flinch what so ever!
This was the first time I had tried a flintlock rifle, I shoot percussion rifles mainly, I have several percussion rifles and figured I'd give flintlocks a try, the video shown was the first outing at the range and admittedly it wasn't the best encounter but I learned from it, I'm definitely no expert with flintlock rifles but I think I have come into a better understanding of them not as much as my percussion rifles but in time I'll get them figured out.
Excellent Video. I make my own flintlocks. I have an org Brown Bess to learn from and spent a long time digesting inform at toon from colonial Williamsburg. I also restore machine tools and work on steam engines.
When you get a machined barrel, all of the features may be present including the lower dovetails which is a clear indicator to where the top of the barrel resides. The breach plug must thread into this barrel tightly but it also has to be oriented correctly. Threads are not known for locating correctly under final torque. So if not correct, you need to cut a morsel off the back of the barrel and try again. If the vent hole has been drilled, it will move towards the breech plug during this fitting.
When the breach plug is made, the threaded shank is made long to facilitate accurate threading especially when using a die. If the builder does not trim this shank to fit the barrel, the breech plug can interfere with the vent hole.
Lastly, if the builder drills the vent hole following the fitting of the breech plug, care must be taken in terms of locating the hole relative to an accurate banking surface. Screw this up and you can drill into the breech plug.
As romantic as the notion of interchangeable parts are history will laugh at you here. It was the military flintlock made by Eli Whitney that first introduced the notion of interchangeability. Whitney got the army contract but failed miserably in delivery of interchangeability. It was not achieved until years later as the science of machine precision became known.
The design and production of flintlocks predates interchangeability. So these guns rely on the gun smith hand fitting the parts including tumblers, plugs, Sears and barrels.
4140 chrome molly did not exist. Rather steel was Cade hardened using bone meal and charcoal. Today we have caseinite in a can. Same process where the core of a part remains mailable but the wear surface is hard for wear. Case hardening is excellent but not cheap and easy to screw up.
So a flintlock made by a skilled craftsman is dead nuts reliable. A lock mass produced for quick sale is a crap shoot.
Absolutely! You, sir are correct. Thanks for posting that.
The best flint lock is the one that Jim Kibler makes from a process that is perfect you can’t beat it . The locks are trouble free and just as quick as a percussion lock. His kits are not cheap if you want a easy kit to build yourself and have a top notch flintlock you will be very happy
Kibler kits are good Much better than any production gun.
Great information, thank you.
Was thinking of adding a Flint Lock to my arsenal, changed my mind.
Save up and get a good one. You will enjoy it!
" Dew Not dew that ". ! Lol , thank you sir , awsome instruction . Appreciate you.
LOL, thank you!
i have a lyman that i ended up puting an L &R lock on to fix these exact issues. the lock made a world of difference. i wish i could buy a custom but i just cant (although with the cost of replacing the lock and having to do my own inlets i probably come close).
I have a Lyman GPR Flintlock. This rifle has served me well. I just want to say, as with everything in life, you get what you pay for. No I didn’t go out and buy a custom flintlock, because at the time I couldn’t afford one. I grew up with the mindset that if you can’t afford the high dollar product, make what you have better. And for someone starting off, it gets you to understand how things work a little more. I’m not saying you’re wrong here. This is just some of the flintlock snobbery some guys have the reputation for.
Oh I know, those darn fly fishing guys and flintlock snobs. Got more money than sense. : )
I have tried Pyrodex in my .54 TC Hawken, and it works if you put about 5-10 grains of triple x black powder in the barrel prior to the Pyrodex. Just adjust the total load accordingly. I use triple x bp exclusively however for hunting.
I don't use or recommend duplex loads (mixed powder types / granulations).
I shoot black powder only.
I am new to shooting BP muzzle loaders, but have been advised by many experienced shooters NOT to mix pyrodex powder with real black powder.
Is it OK to use pyrodex for priming the pan but real BP for the load in the barrel? I am finding it difficult to find 4F black powder.
Malarkey
Flintlock is learning curve, custom or factory, foreign or domestic.
Yes you can PAY to have someone with much experience set it up and maintain it for you or you can learn yourself. I own several of both custom and factory guns. Il take the Pepsi challenge with ya anytime and il use an very affordable factory rifle made oversees. Say when 👍 👍
The Italians make the best flintlocks even better than they do here in the USA.
I have a T/C Renegade (kit) Flinter and I've missed hundreds of deer with it dur to hangfires, misfires, bad sight alignment, etc. Hasnt deterred me from shooting for sport and hunting, or building/collecting a plethora of pistols and rifles.
I have found import frizzens and locks to be inferior. My first flintlock was a cheap CVA kit built in 1973, and I could almost never get it to go off, partly because I don't think it was quality and partly because I was using sawed flints. There were times when I literally had to touch it off with a match just to empty it. But my Great Plains has been great. But before getting rid of your gun because it is unreliable put an L&R replacement lock on it. They make replacement locks for most production guns. I've used them and was very happy with them. They even replaced a frizzen with over 2000 shots on it for free. Currently most of my locks are silers on custom,guns.
You told us all we needed to know when you said it was a kit. Skill issue, not the kit.
@@silvermediastudiothe lock wasn’t a ‘kit’.
@@ltdc426 You quite literally typed out "My first flintlock was a cheap CVA kit built in 1973," it's the second sentence of your comment. Maybe internet isn't your thing? Go back to newspapers.
@@silvermediastudio you quite literally need a hobby.
@@ltdc426 when you resort to ad hominem attack, you admit you've reached the limit of your intellectual capacity. congrats, proved my point, too.
a flash in the pan isn't a lock issue, its a loading issue or flash hole issue. your going on about reliable ignition but i can see it reliably ignite the pan (which is the job of the lock). the lock does not load the rifle or transfer the flame to the powder charge or knap and set the flint properly. some simple advice for anyone with this issue, just use a nipple pick to clear the flash hole and check if you properly seated the bullet.