J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1978 - Discussion 1 with Buddhist Scholars - We are all...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ม.ค. 2014
- J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1978 - Discussion 1 with Buddhist Scholars - We are all caught in the idea of progress
Summary:
Q: Does knowledge condition human beings?
Knowledge means accumulation of information, experience, various facts, theories and principles, the past and the present. All that bundle we call knowledge. Can a mind that is burdened with knowledge see truth?
Will we get more knowledge by reading this or that, what the Buddha said, what Christ said? We are full of this accumulative instinct that we think will help us to jump into heaven.
Can I look at the fact without the word, with all its intimations, all its content, its tradition? Can I look at something without the word, without the association of words, without past remembrances?
Then only I see the fact.
---
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K answered at the beginning in a single line "Sir why do you compare"...rest is the expansion of that one line... ❤️
in that first statement itself the discussion was completely over and explanation of everything was given. The buddhist monk could not understand that his knowledge is the knowledge of scriptures. One becomes a buddha by abondaning the boat. K has abandoned it but still the monk has not. that is the difference between and enlightened person and the one who is not.
Seriously it will be nerve wracking to go and compare the teaching to JK 😃.
Throughout life, from children, from school until we die, they educate us by comparing ourselves with others; However when I compare myself to another I destroy myself
Jk
@@ThePhoenixTube007 no destroy. There is nothing to destroy if you see the real falseness of comparing. By comparing you accumulate some illusionary image, ideas that you call self. If there is something to destroy then one still conditioned and holds some "self" image, which he fears might be affected by comparison.
I choked myslef there. The processing level of information j sir had ❤️❤️
it gives me childlike joy to see learned people having a civilized exchange of ideas instead of a mud slinging match which has taken over lot of the debates we see today
This debate had no point, the guy started just to prove his knowledge(to test himself, how far has he come)
Aftet 9 years of listening, I understood for the first time what it means to look without the word.
I think the process of understanding is a progress because we don't have time to think clearly & slowly.
To understand instantly you have to be aware and only listen with your whole being. That's when the conflict will gone.
After listening him for more than a year I understand about observer is observed
@@ravi.tiwari. its actually quite simple if you live with only fact you will understand just by once....i understood what jk was trying to convey by watching this lecture once...you just have to stick or live with the facts and see the fact then you will not caught in thought which is time
Im sorry sir, but when you say u undertood in 9 years u didn`t understand , also u included time in your answer which is exactly the oposite .respect
@@rockyrai7314the one who says he understands, most certainly does not - Lao tzu
The subtitles are invaluable because of the low volume. Many thanks to any that took the time to write them out.
absolutely. Invaluable work.
Jk is just incredible.... absolute shatterer of it all... cuts through everything ! wow...what a human..I don't have the words.... beyond. so glad he existed and all this was recorded.
I feel the same
Ye I am very grateful for the recordings of him, and everything else.
Absolutely I agree with your views !
He really cut through all the nonsense ... he wasn't deluded by tradition, doctrines, authorities, etc.
Also, I really like how at 30:10, you can see how he's so calm even when he first thought that the woman disagreed with him, and he takes the time to ask, "Agree or disagree?" and then hears her more clearly. I think he was a very aware individual.
listening to him is like listening to upnishads speaking
What a wonderful person is he, Jiddu! Extraordinarily and exceptionally wisdom having person in our present centuries!
Appreciation to the souls who gave rise to this talk and used words so elegantly to communicate about nameless things ❤
The entire thing K wants to tell is in the last 5 mins & to arrive there, he took 1.5 hrs . This is what guru does , shows the path ,leaves u there to explore
I absolutely love this discussion. I've watched everything I can find by J Krishnamurti for years but when I came across this I was captivated. To listen to these three talk, such a deep discussion. I need to work harder to find people who will have these types of conversations with me without falling back on their own conditioning immediately and getting defensive.
Hello I also listen these talk
Study psychology, philosophy, mind theories , about consciousness, then you can consider yourself qualified to debate with someone on such subtle topic .
You do not understand, you must STOP letting other ideas in, and understand reality how only YOU,as a sum of your ideas, can understand it.
I have studied K’s teachings for 44 years. I read others and I always come back to him. His way is so simple and straightforward and for me, rings true.
"My point is, there is no duality even in daily life. It is the invention of all these philosophers, intellectuals, who say THERE is the opposite, work for that."
the words of krishnaji are facts.his voice,words is the reflection of an empty mind.his mind is the truth.we all have that.alas we are going far away from that.🙏🙏🙏
Wow this was quite a conversation, I struggled understanding it at the start but after a while I was astounded.
It really sort of feels that JK is talking about unlearning all the sort of conditioning we use and the fact that we try to use past memories to see the fact and how silly it really is, when you can actually just see the fact without the need of the knowledge. Very wise man, the fact that you can learn so much from unlearning
eternally grateful for making this recording available. I love the back and forth of a discussion. one of the best JK videos
Θυμάμαι όταν είδα το πρώτο του βίντεο, σε ηλικία 20 ετών, θυμάμαι είχα μείνει άφωνος καθώς διάβαζα την μετάφραση, ήθελα να ακούω και να ακούω!! Ήταν όλα τόσο σωστά και απλά τα όσα έλεγε που Παρακολουθούσα με τόσο προσοχή όσο ποτέ ξανά στην ζωή μου με κανέναν άνθρωπο, κατάλαβα πως αυτός ο δάσκαλος αυτός ο Ανθρωπος είναι ότι καλύτερο έχουμε για να αλλάξουμε τον κόσμο μας.😊
Holymoly jk, I lost my sleep with this discussion . The ending is jus fabbbbbbb. Bull's eye . Amazing
Such an amazing exchange thanks to the participants and to JK's subtle approach and deepening. What a sharp mind.
JK is Extraordinary ..Thanks to TH-cam and this channel for bringing this across to us . Greatly indebted..
BRILLIANT
BRILLIANT
BRILLIANT ❤️❤️❤️
thank you for posting this exquisite recording 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
I listened to this discussion in a dream. I was sleeping, and spent much of the dream trying to turn the volume down whilst at the same time being captivated. I had the odd impression that I knew this person.
Buddhist scholars represent our own mentality of knowledge, conditioning of mind, belief in gradual progress and not letting go it.
Is freedom limited by knowledge?
Puff my mind goes crazy with this question 👏 So powerful.
Gents, what we witnessed here is something incredible. A relationship established between a philosophic mind & a religious mind. Religious , not in the orthodox sense but a mind which has supreme intelligence- K
A scholar who has been steeped in traditions - process based meditation, following precepts, fasting etc has his darkness dispelled by K .
Wow
It’s wonderful they came forth to share their perspectives openly. It’s stimulating. One can see the different vibrations that souls have. We expound what we are vibrationally. They are quite different vibrations.
You believe in soul concept?
"May I say sir with all due respect why you compare?"
BOOM
Mic drop
Ahahahahahaahah
wow. what a depth of a discussion and the points made by k. I dont know how many people atleast tried to understand the depth of the concept as explained by k. It looked like the buddhist monk and others are trying to defend themselves rather than trying to understand the depth of the matter explained by K. it shows that the only person who has "abandoned the boat" is krishna ji. All others are carrying their boats with them. Even the buddhist monk is carrying the boat whereas he is the one to be expected to abandoned the boat. That is the essence of the buddha's teachings. Krishna ji is talking the next and improved version of the buddha's teaching but all the others sitting are sitting as just conditioned beings. May be this is what the buddha meant when he said by taking some leaves in the forest, "I can teach you this much which is in my hand of leaves and i can teach you the whole forest. But it is rare to find a person who can understand". Here Krishna ji looks like the next version of buddha and beyond buddha and trying to explain things but it is rare to find people who can understand him.
The Buddhist man wasn’t in the now.
But, thanks to him as much as I thank JK, I see.
Neither is JK in the now.
@@philipjohnson3298 and you definitely aren't. Everyone is a youtube Swamy these days. :'D
🤣🤣🤣
I love that.
He was saying there is no “non- greed, non-violence, etc. there is only greed, and violence. We are all greedy and violent. But we can’t do anything unless we accept the fact that we are always these things. You can deal with things that exist, but you can’t try to obtain non-existence.
There is no need to accept the facts. U see the facts and remain with it and observe the whole movement/ structure of it ,the very observation is complete comprehension or understanding of it which dissolves it.
Aristotle would say it is wise and appropriate to seek wealth in the right way for the right cause to the right degree.
Violence is appropriate in certain circumstances, in the right way to the right degree, etc.
Much more useful approach.
YESS
But we are not ALWAYS these things. I am not ALWAYS violent but I can be. I am NOT just fear, greeed, lust, anger, etc.
@@mmccrownus2406 The problem is, of course, there might be no agreement (even within oneself, never mind amongst a crowd) as to what exactly constitutes 'the right way' or 'the right cause' or 'the right degree'. In which case, who decides?
They have learned many things to dissolve, to control, to understand the ego.
But they didn't know those are the creation of a new ego in just a good form.
This is one of the best discussions I watched.
What an amazing debate. So respectful of each other and have clear points.
It's so true - how not having fear doesn't amount to courage. Courage is not the opposite of fear at all. If it was born out of fear, then it would have had an element of fear. If I "try" to be courageous to avoid my fear, neither my fear is gone and nor is it the manifestation of true courage, it's just running away from my fear. Like he said about freedom from conditioning. To come out of that conditioning is simply a reaction to my conditioning.
Also, K just discreted Gandhi and all his talk about non - violence. XD Such an extraordinary thinker. The fact is - we are all violent. All this talk about non violence is thus non sense indeed. To see the fact and not run away from it towards the non fact because the society condemns it, is to see it actually, not in the sense of that word with it's cultural, political or past meanings. But the true nature of that feeling without the burden of it. And once we see it, it is finished because we become the observer.
That last 5 minutes he made everybody shut down that nobody can ask any question than listening to the speaker carefully.....trust me I never said this in any TH-cam comment..."It's an honour seeing this video"
Man far far ahead of time !
The discussion is simply superb!
Invaluable masterpiece 💎 thanks for sharing 🙏
38:44..
My notes
39:30
Q. How is human being to break this pattern without time?
1:08
Q.is courage the opposite of fear?
1:09
Therefore freedom is the opposite of my conditioning
Q. Is there an opposite?
1:07
1:28
Which implies time,progress, practice, trying, becoming, duality, all rest
Just a suggestion : try listening without even taking any notes… just 💯 listen … there is a certain meditative energy because of the truth and purity in what he says and him …
Why are you taking notes they're conditioning you
Simply superb! Real explanation of non-duality. A discussion not a debate.
These discussions are LIFE-CHANGING!
@@sowenb6182 there is no "how".
@@manumaster1990 loooooiol
chill out
absolutely agree
Thank you for this upload ❤️
Mi piace il modo di rapportarsi tra loro, c è questo rispetto, e sensibilità nelle domande e nelle risposte, abbiamo solo da imparare a conversare in modo così educato
"Probably you know Dr Bohm and myself so we don't need any introduction" Best introduction ever
"To look at facts, time is not necessary. Therefore, since it's not necessary, I can see it now. You can see it now...Why don't you?"
Hahaha.. Please give the time stamp.
@@AmanSingh-em4zt 1:23:30
True. Quite a mic drop
i am watching this lecture for the first time and i am so glad that i am not heavily conditioned so i understood every line of it.. the fact...just always stay with the fact live with what is just see the fact without being caught in time its so easy so simple...because of people are so much conditioned they just find it hard to live with the fact the truth
So, it is impressive such beautiful people exists in this world. Thank you UK ,india ,sri lanka and the world. Mr.J Krishamurthi feels me wonderful human being. grate discussion.
Thanks a lot for this channel you have just planted the seed which currently I am seeing now but I’m sure that in future the seed will grown into such a huge tree that it will capture everybody’s sight.
its so amazing to listen to
Thanks for this video❤️🙏
Thanks for sharing this invaluable video❤
Sir jk is a knife , cutting through our falsehood to actually see...fact...that seeing itself is freedom. Great sir.
Difference between knowledge to knowing is what he is pointing to . From swapnilS Mumbai .
Excellent discussions! The way the other renowed scholars, especially the Bhuddhist scholar, were responding to the tetchy perspectives of JK are an epitome of cool and calm responses!
Thankyou very much for this 🌻
Conversation shows That is the difference between living Buddha(today's Buddha J.Krishnamurti) & bookish student of dead Mahatma Buddha after he leaves his body.many students only misinterpret because of only getting knowledge accumulation,not realising that fact by experiencing it ownself.
You are also comparing and conditioning
He is easy to understand for only meditative people who are quite and know the value of silence.else it’s mind cracking 😁
Very Profound for me was when K Quotes " Am I alright sir ? " And Dr Bohm says "Fine"😀
*Someone give this man a medal.* He is too intelligent that my brain hurts.
Thing is : he wouldn’t care for the world’s medal…. He would care if we gleaned something from him, and go away work on ourselves with serious commitment…
Actually, I’ve also been thinking since yesterday that, if anyone deserved a global recognition ( like Nobel prize) it would be JK! Then I came to above thought on what would have mattered to him… 🙂🙏
His wisdom is the Gold medal / Nobel prize which anyone of us can get. We can work on ourselves and if someone is really interested in finding themselves they should once try to Vipassana meditation.
I am following Ks teaching from almost 10 years and Vipassana is practical implementation of his teachings coming straight fron buddha's times.
I feel sorry for the Buddhist monk sitting there and all his ideas and illusions gathered painfully over several years just being crushed and dissolved by the sheer presence of master K 🙏
Why sorry , it is his fortune to learn
This is a teacher. He's engaging in pure dialectic.
yes, I see it the same, filled with compassion for the Buddhist monk and with joyful gratitude for Krishnamurti, and that we may listen to him 🙏🏽
Don't feel sorry,we are all in the same shit,nobody knows till our last breath.
The Buddhist didn’t stop disagreeing and spouting his own rhetoric the entire time. He learned nothing in any of these discussions and I’m guessing died clutching his beliefs as though they would save him.
Insight into these discussions might solve the cause of all the conflicts in mankind.
thank you jiddu and jiddu original official channel
What a finishing by jk , look his eyes there is sharp laser 🔥
Blissed out every moment of my life
Thank you very much indeed!
mind shattering
This is so cool. Their dialogue is so fun!
Buddhist Scholar experiences presence of Buddha in JK. the whole conversation was like a discussion between Guru & Disciple.
Muchas gracias por compartir y por habilitar los subtítulos en español.
Thank you for having subtitles in English so I understand everything.
Theyre speaking english
@@Noname2004kurdish yep, but its the indian accent that is a bit misleading
@@elenol1310 still english
The subtitles were very well written. Kudos to the person who did them.
I was impressed with how open the zen practioner was to the ideas, especially in comparison to the theravadan monk.
Theravada essentially fetishizes the sutras as as a practice. Zen fetishizes practice itself. In Zen, it's about what you do more than any other sect. So I understand why.
In Zen there is recognition that the spiritual game is just a game. It doesn't take itself too seriously. In other sects this is not so clear.
I feel that if they had talked about practice, she would have had more disagreement. 😄
@@timothyblazer1749 that's super interesting. And I bet you're right about if the conversation had gone further, or if it were just her and JK.
Helpful information you gave in the comparison between theravada and zen.
This discussion demonstrates clearly the frustration of the speaker (K). His relentless efforts to convince us of the limitations of any methodology! This has always been the main core of his message. His explanations about the (misleading)forces within the field of time and knowlegde. That they are grossly underestimated by us and keep us aloof from realization. Not that knowledge doesn't count! But realization is not to be known as an accomplishment or to be found at the end of any number or behind a specific sign or symbol.
The journey to our authentic self begins with knowledge indeed....but realization cannot be framed nor prescribed in stories, theories or evangelism. There is a thin line between "mindfulness" and "un-knowing". We should learn to be aware of it. Naturally. K, inimitable in his way of teaching, demonstrates this passionately and clearly!
The way we should look at the paradox on knowledge is poetically written in The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran : "And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour..?"
If you see through buddha it’s buddha…if you see from any religion it’s the same you will see sir…but j Krishnamurthy sir is different don’t compare 😊
Jk is direct seeing.. without baggage of history...seeing or witnessing...in other words...you can see or witness only when you drop the baggage of past and future and just be here...but other dignitaries are still caught in their strong baggage of patterns knowledge and can't break or drop whole...jk was truely transformative here now...🙏🙏🙏🙏 SwapnilS mumbai
Thx for the video 🙏
Estos diálogos me recordaron el libro de Krishnamurti La Pregunta Imposible.
I'm loving this!
It is called "shastrath" we can say and we people are lucky to have this conversation
Totally fascinating!
Thank You !
Buddha is back in new skin , to convey same massage, Buddha is not religion it’s an inquiry within . But people still comparing with old Buddha which is past ,2500 yrs ago Buddha uses his teachings according to conscious level of peoples of that time so he developed some karmic methods which implies “time”and then came out of it ,but after 2500 yrs he is direct ,straight without wasting time saying that“no time to die “Die now while living “ it’s here and now , listen,inquire,see it and finish , words has created feelings of love , hate , etc , and also images which is non fact ,beyond words there is nothing, so words not effects at all “how sweet “❤️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
In vipassana meditation, you observe a defilement without judgement and it dissolves. It may come back again tomorrow but you observe it there and then ...and it dissolves. Same thing K is saying. Where is the difference? Is observing your daily experiences, a practice...yes. The defilement gets weaker & weaker every time.
" Is observing your daily experiences, a practice...yes." Not when observing has no intent to gain something out of it, like the desire to become still for example. That 'wanting' would be a movement in time. When observing leads to dissolvement - wich it does - then there's just the dissolvement that is witnessed. Witnessing takes no effort.
In this kind of meditation practice there is intention and goal-orientation. You plan your meditation routine and then start intentionally, with the goal in mind that you will improve something over time. K. repeatedly says in his talks that this "sitting quietly" is "nonesense", he says that "meditation is the outcome of understanding your own conditioning" and has nothing to do some kind of mindfulness practice or non-judgemental awareness or whatever you may call it. Where does K. say that you do something repeatedly? You remain with the sensation like greed or violence without escaping to the opposite, only then can you question it, see what it is, what the motives are. When you see that trying to become a projected idea is absurd, you naturally stop. Then the mind isn't fighting itself by comparing what should be with what is and trying to close the gap.
K. is suggesting that we are deceiving ourselves all the time and instead we are to see that movement of deception in action, thereby it stops because it is self-defeating and makes no sense. These traditional meditation practices on the other hand don't usually involve this kind of insight through negation, they just involve watching your sensations with an attitude of honesty and attentiveness. It's not really the same, or am I missing something? K. always uses the word "revolution" when he talks about that change, but revolution in its root meaning is nothing that happens progressively, it happens abruptly and at once and changes things fundamentally. That's not practice.
The discussion is between a conditioned mind and a unconditioned mind, thats why both can't merge.
and there's why one brings compassion
who is a conditioned mind?
Labeling is a conditioned mind
Jk is not conditioned
Lol. Which is which?
Beautiful video 😍
Este hombre (ajeno a todo calificativo) fue capaz de comprender la conducta humana y aquello q nos hace humanos con más rigurosidad q los *expertos* psiquiatras, psicoterapeutas, neurólogos, etc. Comprendió el cambio como algo ajeno al lenguaje y al tiempo.
Como es una persona identificada con el dinero? Seria apegada, que quiere dinerl a cualquier custo aunque perjudicando a los demás?
The accumulation of experience and information is of the past whereas Imagination, vitality, purpose, and focus is always of the present creatively shaping and reshaping the future anew. Here, one neither rejects nor accepts experience. but rather, If useful, build on it or otherwise cast it away as irrelevant and craft something completely new. It is not from a problematic, but rather from a joyful foundation that humanity will extricate itself from the mess we are in today and remain sustainably relevant for generations to come. Our standardized education, built on an industrial and now tech conformance platform was never designed for the task and neither was Disneyland.
Nicely put
K : Then why don't you see that?
Monk : That is another question.
I love how K. knows that the Monk has no real experience of anything, he has just collected some words. K intelligently makes the Monk realize that he is stupid in accumulating what he had accumulated. Love k.
Thanks! 😍
The fact is, K has approached this debate with an agenda, and his own conditioning with an arrogant approach that says "buddhism is a path of progress, evolution and result"which it is not. He has already decided what buddhism is and this is his conditioning which he can't see! The monk is right to compare Buddha's teaching with K's because it brings to light that there is no conflict in their teachings ultimately, which brings an end to the conflict and comparison, whereas the irony is that K is the one who is propagating the conflict in this debate!
I think you're missing the essential point, elucidated by K in the last minute. To understand fear, you must look at it without memory, so to speak. And--as K said--you don't need someone else to show you how, to guide you. That in fact any help of that kind is a hindrance. You just do it. Now, that word "just" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Nonetheless, this simple insight is the absolute core of K's teachings. Along with the fact that there is no becoming psychologically: If try to make yourself ungreedy, it is merely a motion in thought. It's like dreaming you've got out of bed and turned the light on.
Buddha's knowledge is from EXPERIENCE and Jiddu's knowledge is acquired by critically reading books.
This was great on many levels..
Thank you
Thank you sr
So glad I found this before getting conditioned by some beliefs. Jk you were a gem! ❤
Is getting conditioned by some knowledge bad ? Jk said so, and your belief in that is again the conditioning of your mind based on his speech.
Arrive the answer for yourself. To think without conditioning mean you dont accept anything until and unless you see it as it is without any pre conceived notion. That means if you see something as it is then you cannot express. Because to express you need the help of past.
Have you stumbled upon this on the day of your birth? Which parents are you born child to that haven't conditioned you in some way or other? Which society are you born into? This is most extraordinary.
for the search of truth...thanks a lot
It´s as if both of them are right. Krishnamurti corners WR by asking why Buddhist scriptures and dogmas aren´t conditioning just as much as everything else. But WR is also right: most people do need the "boat" (the Buddhist dogmas) to cross the river... Fascinating exchange!
At the end of the video it made me realize that an intellectual giant of the stature of Jiddu K is also just a human being.
What do you mean
I can see how a philosphical mind is struggling and in state of hopelessness.
wonderfull
great discussion
As the Buddhist guy gave the example of boat, its like an old saying use a big thorn to remove the small thorn in the foot and after removing that, what do you do about the big thorn? Just keep it aside. But what JK is saying if you see the thorns in the first place you don't have to go through the tiring method of removing it later
I cannot get . please explain it
@@ranjitvideobook6236 the accumulation of knowledge, which are the experiences and education from the childhood till now have nothing to help with one's agony, suffering, miserable life. They are all information stored in your brain memory. JK ask people to think that, human race have a 10.000 years of knowledge heritage. Our brain is educated for 10.000 years and it didn't help to get rid if the suffering. So supposing that the knowledge will take you to enlightment, which is represented in this conversation as " the boat of knowledge which will take you to the enlightment " that's a big illusion, JK says. As the knowledge and information did not help human race for thousand years, it will also not help another thousand year.
@@gc7304 if knowledge cannot help human kind, then why is JK teaching at all?
Isn't the very saying "knowledge cannot help human kind" in itself a form of knowledge?
@@PragmaticOptimist Good question. I think he tryed to warn us at least that you can not find "the way" following anyone, You could for yourself if you had energy and time to work on that, he did it and helped other people "jumpstart" their way to truth. All the gurus, religions blind you from truth since they are created though the conditioning and make you in a jail as well.
The most patient person and attentive person in world award goes to J.K sir for listening to this guy for a single question which goes beyond fifteen minute's 😂. This guy reads all book in world and asks question as if no one will allow him to ask questions again forever 😂
You know while watching this..and I don't know if its unrelated, I had this insight that everything we may be motivated to do..even achieve enlightenment etc is to achieve sensory (internal or external) joy for ourself or for others. Or avoidance of pain. Now in order to do this wo causing pain or minimal and/or to cause pleasure (that does not cause more pain) in the future is the goal. To me it seems a great balancing act and we are to lean it toward the good while not denying our instincts given by nature to "survive". As wo survival we achieve nothing in this world. The wisdom, knowledge and power to achieve this aim is what we seek imo. I have encountered one and only one philosophy that sees things this way and that is Kabbalah. Now indeed the waters are muddied as to what survival consists of or what is needed to achieve it, again balancing pain and pleasure. The tools of religion/spirituality/consciousness assist us in "seeing" more clearly. So goal one..see clearly (after running away from the bear) , then two implement that sight. Enjoy achievement and advancement in community or outside it.
Man, if this is how enlightened people interact, then I haven't a chance.