J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1979 - Discussion 4 with Buddhist Scholars - Truth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ม.ค. 2014
- J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1979 - Discussion 4 with Buddhist Scholars - Truth
Summary:
Q: Is there a difference between reality and truth?
All the things that thought has put together -- literature, poetry, painting, illusions, gods and symbols -- that is reality for us. But nature is not created by thought.
Can the mind, the network of all the senses apprehend, see and observe truth?
Psychological time is the invention of thought, which we use as a means of achieving enlightenment. Is such time an illusion? Is truth measurable by words? Truth is timeless, thought is of time, and the two cannot run together.
Without love, without compassion, truth cannot be. I cannot go to truth, I cannot see truth. Truth can only exist when the self is not.
---
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Truth is timeless.
Thought is of time.
So if Truth is to exist, you must listen and see without thought. Marvelous!
That is exactly what he did not meant
there is no "u" who exist, not a individual...just "existence" of organism..
@@alanmegenavarro14 What did he mean then?
@@alanmegenavarro14did u listen?
That is not Correct. Nature is not born out of thought but its Reality and therefor it is what it is and therefore Reality also can be the Truth in terms of non movement of Thought. Is it not?
Thank you so much for these precious videos without any distortion.
Salutes to those people who have made this easy and pure for mankind.This is great respect to Krishn ji 🙏
Time is a movement, and thought is also a movement. That means thought can take you to past and future. if there is no movement of thought it is Timeless. K gave first hand insights Thanks a lot to Foundation.
I've never seen a single video where Krishnamurti is not the largest being in the room yet he seems so utterly subtle
JK knew the answer from the beginning... he just wanted all to discuss and make them awake for themselves. He is a world teacher.
Yes or no but he doesn’t used to speak from memory but his words were from direct perception or you can say he dig into question all the time even he did it earlier.
No
Perhaps out of compassion or otherwise, Krishnamurti DESIRED that people grasped what he was saying, did he not?
He doesn't want to assert authority, that would make him the same as all the other money grabbing Gurus, like the pope, the Dalai Lama, the political ideologists, and all the so called spiritual teachers.
Love this. But in contrast to many of the comments, I love each participant also, not just K.
Despite spending several days and having discussions with K, the Buddhist monk is so heavily conditioned by his knowledge, that he can only discuss Truth but is far from experiencing it!
He could be just kidding.
When K said truth and reality, WR said there is no duality.
I only know reality (what i perceive in daily life to be true)
Does anybody know truth?
Truth is not experience
Words are so tricky
When I say I know truth, can u believe me?
(1.25.05)
Truth is not perceivable through time.
Truth doesn't exist when the self is there.
Truth doesn't come into existence when thought in any direction is moving.
Truth is something that cannot be measured.
Without love, without compassion with its own intelligence truth cannot be.
(J.Krishnamurthi)
Wow, this should be taught in grammar school. Just imagine how less stressed ppl would be.
YESSS, i am still amaized how asleep we all are
Quite interesting to see the supposed to be top minds at that time just barely hanging on 😁 awakening has gone very far in mankind since then!! Love these uploads!
Buddhist monk was so much attached to his philosophy that I'm sure he is not seen the truth of 'self'.
JK have a great level of patience.
🤣🤣🤣
Agreee
this is pure GOLD. the only GOLD i would ever accept as invaluable.
Very wonderful discussions for mankind, thanks to foundation for these videos
This discussion is gold...
at the end of this discussion, that monk WR just missed an important question raised by K: what is the relationship of truth to reality. JK was about to reveal the great insight for the nonduality between the two, not as a second-hand idea heard or read from somewhere else but from his own discovery. Unfortunately WR cut him off, what a loss of mankind!
very true .
Absolutely....
One could say that elements that are not opposite are actually inclusive. Thought and time being limited, therefore fragments of the whole are part of the whole. Thought perceives the division because of the self.
So...one could say that reality is part of truth, divided itself from truth only by the self. Just like a day, whether it's yesterday, today or tomorrow is actually part of the year, but not in opposition to it, just fragmented from it. One would guess this is what K was implying.
Respect to the monk, for staying so patient with this jk half-sense
1:25:07 This is the answer on a whole new level. He has known it the whole time. Such an incredible being.
1:30:57
Thanks for uploading this content 🙏
Thank you so much ❤
Priceless
It is openly clear that the Buddhist guy is seeing only through his conditioning. Wanted reassurance from JK of his Buddhist condition. He completely failed to see what was said. The discussion represents humanity. It is an education for each of us to see how futile this type of questioning. There is a great deal of learning. Buddhist could not answer the question that is truth and reality same or different - One needs to understand that self, a bundle of images etc etc etc cannot capture the unlimited - I am not an expert but learning all the time
Absolutely
I think the Buddhist guy was more fascinated to see what he thought was a real life Buddha in front of him.
He is the most important in these discussions as he was the one bringing all these points yo discuss
Why do you think self is a bundle of images?
True, Bcs Buddhist is his business. and he he is good at it. It's Impossible to understand Krishnamurty bcs it's very simple. People approached with the accumulation of knowledge and approved by so called society to get the Certificate from him, But Krishnamurty throw all their knowledge into Garbage Bin.
I am always a bit surprised at the many negative comments about the participants in Krishnamurti's discussions. It wouldn't be much of a discussion if they only sat and looked at him with open mouth and adoring eyes. In fact he himself continuously encourage people to voice their opinions. But ofc it's probably nice to feel that unlike the fools in the room back then I understand Krishnamurti completely😊
Great discourse. I was going to write Great Spiritual Discourse first, but stopped myself since I didn't want to give any meaning or word to the discourse. If we all can see the truth, how fantastic this world will become. Without any prejudice, pre-conditioning, comparison, measurement. I see the truth can not be a thought. It shouldn't be a deception. It should be to see without any thought. The buddhist scholars just repeats what JK says and then at times disagrees with him, since he is not getting it. He is doing constant comparison on what he is listening with his thoughts on what he has learned by reading Buddhist scriptures. It would have been extremely difficult for him to listen without any thought and see clearly. He is a good example of what we shouldn't be doing all the time. The mind and ego are the two big blockers in seeing the truth.
I love when JK says "Ahahhhhahhh mmm''.
❤️❤️👌
I also
This comment seems very wrong without context
@मित्र que quisiste decir?
😂😂
Essence of this whole conversation is natural functioning of the senses without translating by the thought which is liberation.
it is one part of it.
導師你已清楚表達 多謝教導
That Buddhist guy keeps saying "I see the truth" and then agrees with Krishnamurti when he says "Truth can only be seen when the self is not". I wonder if he ever got the point.
For conversation sake one has to use the conventional language, otherwise, it would become tediously long. I am not saying that Buddhist scholar is or is not seeing the truth, but every enlightened teacher uses the term "I" one way or another (even JK).
It’s obvious that he didn’t.
They couldn't sit there in silence, this nothingness that is, is active, and it must use I. I am is the mind's best translation for this silence. Me can be completely dissolved but the physical body shouldn't be killed in that, but empowered with intelligence in this activity.
Seeing through silence.
Thanks
The moment one says Nirvana, there is a duality. The description of it, that it is bliss, peace, cosmic consciousness. So you create something, a duality and now toward which you aspire. So Nirvana, through description become a knowledge, and thought of it strengthen it and think of it, and aspire towards it, asking how.
This has perfectly helped me understand a certain way of thinking, we're all trying to define it, when it is this, and by defining it with so many words we separate truth from this moment
Knowledge by acquaintance is the way you achieve nirvana
I am thankful to WR even more than JK, because he is the one who is representative of us all. Only the questions, arguments of WR can help us taking small steps forward rather than the sky high indications of JK. Without WR, talks of JK would be like making a jump from an aeroplane with a hope that we are capable of flying because we can understand (intellectually) JK's talks, and that too without any parachute.
Actually true he is OG
Thanks.
Grande come sempre.
The smile of Mr Rahulas from 6:13 till 6:17... Watched it several times 😊😊😊
i kno not to put JK as authority either but he strikes me as the ''end boss'' of spiritual leaders
That is the interference of thought. He is not a leader.
@@s_anandsurya you are right, he himself said that he doesnt want anyone to follow him
he is just joking
His ultimate move is the Truth Bomb
I them all. Thank you.
very clear SIR .THANKS K
Thanks to JK, since the day I have recognized the thought of human brain is such small, narrow and misleading, any person who is proudly sitting with a feeling of privilege, telling about their religion or systematic teachings with fancy and magical words is looking very very empty and dumb to me.
The plain, simple way of JK's explanations has saved me from a very important mistake, which is " everything useful and valuable requires high level of knowledge, training and personality".
I suppose, JK only clarified that natural things like all animals, rivers, seas etc. are not part of Reality because the subject was different & JK wanted to stick to the subject. What a marvellous unfolding of truth. Only one thing, people missing, is that when he makes vibrant statements, people didn't listen & thinking at the same time of listening & that is every time, they missed the Truth perception. He always remind listeners that they should think together along with him but people didn't. Very pathetic to see that.
@Mohcin Bajja oooh , you,re not the only one, the only moments it happens to be that, i,m Not indulge by thought, is when i,m fully occupied with an intens task, so perhaps i come to understand , what j k meant when he said ,, just listen "
I think the point is consistently missed that although the psychological conditioning is illusory it is what we are living with and what we are suffering with and which is the reason we create systems and paths in order to better our experience within this conditioning because it is our reality regardless of it being illusory. The fact of seeing truth or enlightenment is a seperate issue from psychological "improvement" and although it is itself instantaeneous, there is still much psychological work to do done to clear up confusion and understand certain things but Krishnamurti will keep disregarding that as having no place in seeing truth which is correct but again they are seperate issues, no one is saying psychological investigation and thinking "lead to truth" over time, certain things need to be cleared up before we can see because we are so conditioned. He spent his whole life doing this psychological discourse which is no different to what the Buddha had done yet he seems to discard too soon. The truth doesn't take time, but we are stuck in time, and that does not imply that we use time to see truth. It might look to an observer that a meditator or practicioner is "using psychological time" to "achieve" some state but it is not so. Just seeing the illusory process itself but again we cannot see it right away.
Thank you! I've had that question on my mind during the whole talk. I wish he would have said a fre words about the place of such psychological cleansing, through time.
I'm a Buddhist and the point the JK is making is a simple but profound one. Let's look at what you write....
In your last sentence you state "we cannot see it right away". Hmmmmmm we cannot see.....and JK's simple query to you and any Buddhist like me is who is it that is saying we cannot see it right away?
JK is asking us to confront anything psychologically that advocates for a me built on experience or the accumulation of knowledge as defining our ultimate reality or "true" self.
We are more than our thinking and our experience.
Indeed from a Buddhist perspective.... it is the ego tricking you psychologically... Stop that trickery and a new world opens before you and this is the doorway as it is to "seeing things as they are" ...
The difference is practicing as opposed to accumulating information as these Buddhist scholars are doing and the difference is truly significant.
Merci
Gli ultimi minuti il Dr. Rahula❤🙏😊☺️☺️ ridevo ridevo... . Commovente vedere Sir. Krishnamurti prendere per il braccetto Rahula per andare al pranzo. ☺️
1:24:50
🔥🔥🔥
He absolutely right 🌻
You can't see beuty of truth present of self.
Teachers are always looking for recognition...
Dude.. now that’s what we should call „going beyond reality”.
Non-duality only surfaces in relation to duality. Non-duality is perception, absence of centre, of fragmentation. Duality is thought, complementary opposites: "I am envious, but in time I hope to be non-envious"; "I am more conscious now than I was five years ago, when I was quite unconscious". When duality (thought, time) is perceived, unity emerges. The "conscious self" and the "unconscious self" coexist in the now; their spatio-temporal separation is a construct of thought, a simple neural proposition, which instead of being taken as an approximation, an utilitarian model of limited scope, is considered as a fact (their narrative is considered as a fact, but not their own act of presence, which is not taken into account).
So we have three elements: reality, fact and truth. Their reciprocal relationship is as follows: truth emerges when duality (our reality, today, the "matrix", the web of thought) is established as a fact.
'Thought has invented time as a means of either achieving security, or it is lazy to completely transform itself. Immediately.'
Is there a psychological time at all ?
Is psychological distance an illusion?
Can you be free of envy without allowing time to intervene?
Do we see it or we think we see it ?
Insight implies tranformation of the whole, not partial ?
At 1:25:08 there's the revolutionary statement....of n for spirituality
Seeing inside the idea and time totally ,
like death in every second
Reality is an experience and actuality is a perception.
keep quiet and let J talk, geez lol
Insight, deep insight
🙏🏻
🙏💥🌻
grandiosidade de sabedoria foi revelado a humanidade...
1:23:35 this gentleman asked the most important question of life
One cause, all else is effect. Psychologically there is only now. What is truth? Truth is.
Quel dommage que peu de gens ne vivent profondément le message qu'il continue de nous donner pour qu'une mutation se passe en nous...
❤
What is the meaning of Mind measures?
mind measures means that thought is constantly evaluating, comparing and so on
For me Jk is like a brilliant mathemetician who go solving the problem step by step and finally solving the problem and each individual step is taken from reality only which we all go through or all mankind goes through.
"Truth is not perceivable through time.
Truth is not when self is.
Imagination is actual reality" ....
This is #4 of this series.
Through all this, doesn't it reveal that there are only 2 state of being, reality and actuality?
Reality is the way things are (... or supposed to be). This includes God, for it is omnipresent.
Actuality is everything that is product of thought, including man's imagination.
Then, the ultimate truth - the only truth - is the being that is here, sitting-listening-observing-learning minus the i-my-me-mine quality or duality...?
what's the name of those joined in the conversation, I know Krishnaji, Phiroz Mehta, Mary Zimbalist, what about the others?
J. Krishnamurti, Scott Forbes, Phiroz Mehta, G. Narayan, Shakuntala Narayan, T.K. Parchure, Walpola Rahula, Stephen J. Smith, Mary Zimbalist
@@KFoundation greatly thank you for reply
Physical existance and psychological existance are interdependent. Effect of physical results creates psychology.
In this talk I feel Krishnamurti is confusing things. On one hand he claims that reality is what is created by thought. When asked wether nature is reality he gives two distinct answers.
totally agree
K is not confused as such. Hes making a distinction between truth and reality. Reality is everything around us including our thoughts. But the truth is nature, which is not created by thought. Hence a tree is a reality and the truth as well as it is nature, as opposed to a building that has not been created by nature but by thought which is only reality and not the truth.
@Mohcin Bajja Yep, and where there is no thought there is no time
"I want to get it before....
one o clock"
all bunch of fools sitting in front of JK want to put there point which they read from somebody else. Only JK is talking from his own findings.
Exactly
@Ganesh Mcl hehehe I’m seeing the product of jk teaching..
@Ganesh Mcl agree, i dont think they are fools ,really.
Okey if they are not fools,why they can't find the answer for themselves. Or atleast try to understand what JK is saying. Instead they want to bring Buddha in between.
I don't find them to be fools, they are trying to understand what K is saying in their own ways and with best of their abilities. And we are doing the same.
Fact
@58:00 I am not trying to say, I am saying
It is so much painful that I haven't attended. That I have not got that insight that intelligence during this talk
If there is God. Will he forgive me if i tell about Jiddu Krishnamurti?
Suffering none suffering
Any one who has a structured belief or any belief of truth cannot see .....There fore blocked from truth
You might find comfort,,but never truth, krishnamurti is so far beyond these people and there concepts....That they will never see the truth,unless they let go....
Same with us , 40 + years later
When K said about truth, just listen it
Think Dr Rahul knows his stuff. And some of the stuff K talks about observing without thinking is what Buddha teaches. We can theorise till the cows come home but to progress we need to build insight and that happens when we meditate
Progress?
1:20:45
someone’s whose truly looking to make sense of it and not relate only to his conditioned mind “i see that’s true” ….“how is it true”?..who or what is your source of information?to oppose completely not try to figure it out by figuring his words meanings but by opposing the “proposed theories or inquiries” he opens himself to be able to understand the entirety of the universal trith
This man was not ready for K I really feel sorry for him.
Now I think I understand what Point the Buddhist scholar was actually moving from. If truth and reality are two totally different things, then how is it that out of reality (words, expressions, thinking) they were getting at truth? If they were not related in any way, then it wouldn’t be possible. That means that thought is also a product of awareness. Whereas awareness isn’t a product of thought. It is just that. I don’t see it not being a fact. Otherwise it would not be logical. You can cease all your thinking by totally transforming the way your mind and brain works. That is lack of conditioning within daily life. I feel like K did that and yes it is a process. I don’t stick to what he says. The very entering the state of awareness is obviously immediate. But the ability to stay within this state is a product of process. Physical process, not psychological process. Just like learning a language. It implies physical time (for the structure of brain to keep changing).
But thought cannot be aware of itself
Damn, i liked all of these guys ,expect the Buddhist like i wanted to get rid off him ahhaha
1:19:47 / 1:33:01
1:20:50 i Krishnamurti laugh 😅😅❣
Last 7 minutes were disaster. Everything was going right until this monk wanted a shortcut in 1 minute.
This Rahula Buddhist monk doesn't even have a patience. He doesn't want to enquire deeply, and just wanted shortcut for everything. His mind is full of conclusion, theories and conditioning .He just Rote learnt the scriptures and was spilling out words like a play game. The scriptures words he was using didn't even hold any meaning to him. I wonder, why he called himself a monk ? Did he apply any of those scriptures in his daily practical life ?? I think so Never
JK sir simply wasted his own time and energy by holding a discussion with this man.
😅😅😅
I love Native Americans
That buddhist is a prat of the highest order.
Thought disorders of everyday people.
Ah death. Keeps us all on our toes doesn't it. And then I guess there is no toes.
With all due respects Walpola Rahula - he is clueless , most conditioned of all with his Buddhist beliefs and wants to impose them...Whatever JK says must have all gone above his head....
Peccato non essere traduzione italiana
Dice che la verità non può essere vista in tempo psicologico neanche in tempo fisico. Quando parliamo, usiamo le parole, comunichiamo, pensiamo, tutto che sia il risulto del pensiero è sempre in ritardo in riguardo alla presenza. Allora la verità non esiste in parole o pensieri, é più che loro ed è più che il mondo di forme. La realtà comunque è tutto già fatto, già esistente. Possiamo dire che la realtà è tutto quello che esiste in modo in qui la possiamo osservare con i pensieri e con il nostro cervello. La verità è più che la realtà. Qualcosa totalmente differente, perché non esistendo in tempo fisico neanche psicologico.
How is it possible with our fruit-picking brains to know the Truth? I AM THE TRUTH, but it it is not conceivable nor perceivable.
when there is no self who experiences the truth would anyone put some light on it
As from my understanding, by the concept of “no-self” is meant by none-self if this makes more sense. By none-self it is meant that the conscious mind, through its aggregate senses whether it be touch smell sight and so on, produces thought in accordance to the sense that is presently “in use”. When your mind smells good food or it sees a bird the conscious produces this thought. It’s a very deep and complex concept this “no-self” but I personally have found it to be the truth through extreme meditation where I was able quiet the mind to deep “levels”.
Truth just exists....If someone is experiencing the truth, then there is a duality, right? Truth can only be
Jk: "it is so"
Person: yes
Jk: "ahhhhahhah ahh mm.."
😂😂😂favourite ❤️❤️
In the Quran. God Speaks he has Created all things in Duality.
My verse is not correct but the Meaning of that is similar to this. So therefor we Can Understand Dualism is Nature. Dualism Is Creation. Who is The Creator?
Sebagian audience ingin tau tentang kebenaran yang bisa ditangkap oleh fikiran secara verbal atau intelektual,,😁😁😁 jelas tidak bisa!
Holaaa, algún latino?
I prefered to saw K..to make a dialogue with Martin Heidegger or Paul Satre instead all these people there...
Insight is out of time because what is to be seen is not a product.
Is any of these men or women still alive?
The Buddhist scholar go unscholarly skills totally annoying
Who are bored with the name "Buddhist"
Quoting scriptures is ego assuming the spiritual posture.
Why so? The Buddhist guy knew exactly what k was talking about the whole time. I feel like he was already in the state of awareness but patiently waiting for the k to explain to them what truth is. He lost it a number of times. Yes k seems to be far beyond him, but Buddhist isn’t that away from awareness. I feel like the mere problem is that him and k cannot possibly understand each other because of the level of words. K sees words differently and rahula differently. But ultimately they are talking about the same thing. On the level of forms unfortunately we are caught in time. And so the same goes to words.
I agree with you ❤.
Krishnamurti is the most confused person in the room. 😂