J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1983 - Conversation 1 with D. Bohm - Is there an action...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1983 - Conversation 1 with David Bohm - Is there an action not touched by thought?
Summary:
Q: What is the future of man?
All the problems that humanity has now, psychologically and in other ways, are the result of thought. We are pursuing the same pattern of thought, and thought will never solve any of these problems.
The whole structure of the me is put together by thought. The me is my consciousness, which is my name, form, all the various experiences. Is consciousness individual, or is there one inseparable consciousness of mankind?
Whatever action is born of limited thought must inevitably breed conflict. Dividing humanity geographically, religiously, and so on, has created havoc in the world. The me is a divisive entity. Why is there this division? Am I concerned with my very limited self or with the future of mankind?
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I like Bohm, he makes the impression of being VERY cautious, VERY considerate, VERY sensitive to not deviate from the correctness of the things being said. Such a humble and honest man and at the same time such a brave and formidable man for approaching truth without inhibitions for the sake of advancing and helping humanity. My deepest respect.
A true true scientist looking for a logical profession to the truth....and he got that by the end of video 2. Brilliant teacher was Murti!
totally agree!
1:07:40 When he talks about how one has to feel about the world being one, I remember one rare moment of clarity in my life. I was at my grandma's funeral and we were at the graveyard; all the relatives and friends and people who knew her. I looked at them all and suddenly it became so clear to me: we are all one life. My grandma wasn't dead; her body might be in that little box, but everything she was lived on in all of us and all my grief vanished in an instant. I was so happy that I realised that. From that moment on I tried to treat every person as a part of me. Every fault, anger, sorrow I encountered was part of me and I try every day to hold on to that moment. To hear that from a man who dedicated his life to this, gives me strength on my way.
We are fortunate to receive moments of intense clarity. It is a rare occurance, to be sure, but ever so more rare, are those individuals, who incorporate those clarities into their future, as a tinted lens, through which all experiences are enhanced.
Nice to see you in the club, Jazz.
Do you also treat animals same way...?
@@clayandputtyvideos1647 So that mean we should not eat meat ?, right ?
@@SudhirDudeja I stopped eating it 2years ago
@@SudhirDudeja would k not say, that is an ideology, that is separation in oneself, I like meat, but I should not eat it?
David has an amazingly lively mind.
Thanks for sharing.
What I appreciate most of all is their very sincere effort to understand one another. They are working together to clarify both their thoughts. This is a true conversation in the sense that there is a ‘conversion’ of ideas into understanding.
We have many intelligent people engaging in discussion but rarely do they talk with each other in this manner. Instead, they try only to persuade the rights and wrongs of their ‘own’ argument. And tragically miss the forest for the trees.
absolutely. which is why communication has deteriorated to this point today. we identify with certain schools of thought, ideologies and that which we identify with, we will defend bcz it becomes a matter of personal affront.
sad in a matter of 30yrs, this is what we've come to.
Very well set this comment is one of the best on TH-cam I've read this whole year. And it's very satisfying watching too mature highly intellectual adults that are also good in physics and spiritual book balanced try to do their damndest their best to figure shit out and be honest and transparent with it with no ego all truth as they believe it and know it you can't ask for more than that. This is definitely a dialogue that should be studied by people in our elementary schools Junior High in high schools this is real education
So well put friend.
exactly
You have put wonderfully
This i one of the best conversation i have heard on freeing the mind there's so much insight listen with full attention
This is how should be ideal conversation ,, respecting eachother im just blown away by this wisdom oo my god. Thank you so much
arguably one of the best discussions ever happened on conciousness, mankind, psyche,etc. Thank you J. Krishnamurti - Official Channel.
How sad.. 1:05 J. Krishnamurti describing the world how a lot of us experience up till today almost 40 years later.
But also remember that the world was like this in the early 20th century, too.
Imagine, Krishnamurti lived through World War 1, The Spanish Flu, The Great Depression, World War 2, The Cold War, and so on.
It's true the world is in a state of extreme chaos, but perhaps it was always like that, just we were not aware, we did not have the immediate experience of it.
In fact, if you live in a small community in some countryside area in Europe, the world is still chaos, but YOUR world is not chaos. The west experienced extreme peace while the middle east experienced extreme war and violence.
What's different now is that everyone's experience is intertwined. Which is really interesting. We are getting closer and closer to becoming "one" but at the same time scrambling around trying desperately to remain separate.
@@MrMadalien great comment !!
An excellent analysis 👏👏@@MrMadalien
I bought this on vhs in the eighties and watched it many times.
dr bohm is such a gem man ❤️❤️❤️ he knows what to ask and how to ask it
always insightful, wonderful, and comforting.... yes we are one.. so grateful that some wise soul decided to capture all of these conversations... thank you.
Thank you for making this video available with subtitles in several languages. ❤
Just imagine if we could all have a meaningful dialogue between one another without anger and hate.
🕊🌺✨
In dreams, it's too late maybe
@@Ceogoogle. but then you can still have a meaningful internal dialogue with yourself
This is such a beautiful thought
Plenty of us are delightfully distracted that seldom do we give this meaningful thing a meaning.. it rather looks menacing and boring.. Pleasure of all sorts we are always consumed and we love it until nature slaps back for us to learn
Bohm does such a beautiful job of making Krishnamurti clarify his understanding into words that may be more palatable to the average person, it's a delight to see these two lovely souls interact and learn together
Is more then respect one for other; is love
True
Yes there is much that I misunderstood due to the way Krishnamurti speaks which I'm now able to understand due to Bohm's clarifications.
We are looking at two of the greatest minds in historie, trapped in persona, and partly aware.
This is a RARE sight and thank you to the Divine and Anni Besant on a shore in India.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
It is so relevant even today! So glad to have this conversation available for everyone🙏
37 years later...the chaos is getting bigger and bigger...
@@TomTom-lg3ez why would yo think it's hopeless?
@@TomTom-lg3ez sadly enough you are right.
But we have iphones
@@TomTom-lg3ez whoever is programming this is learning and fixing the code on the go.
Also adding new features, gadgets etc. At the end the fixing is not going to help and they have to crash/decommission this software to build a new one. And the cycle will continue.
@Mr. E Hopeless in the sense that the chaos and hysteria that we have been experiencing in this cycle are not over by the long shot. The worst is yet to come in terms of social-economic fallout. There's always hope because after this cycle, next cycle begins with rejuvenated society that's ready to start fresh. It's simply a natural phenomenon we must experience
12:23 thought
16:47 knowledge about human being
21:35 why important? division and conflict
26:19 mankind is all one
28:50 achievement of men
32:00 consciousness is shared by all human beings
36:23 source of thought is psychological time
40:00 44:42 time
43:23 1:06:16 self improvement
45:24 47:50 observer is the observed. no time
46:26 ending of self knowledge
55:50 1:08:40 intelligence
58:58 how to find out
1:13:09 future of mankind
1:17:53 Bodhisattva
Wow u r grt
Спасибо, добрый человек
Thanks
Thanks for this Indexing 😊. As you know it helps to listen to specific points 🎉
Thank you for these !
Very deep and insightful discussion, great discussion.
These two put on a great discussion, very quick and lively. They both have fascinating and entertaining facial expressions. Thanks for posting it!
I noticed the same. Thank you for clarifying my thoughts lol much luv bro THANK You
We lived on. Even know during a pandemic in 2020 we look back and ask “What would I have done differently”. We LIVE on.
Excellent point
The question is HOW would live on? Would you do the same things have the same thoughts act the same way...etc.?
@@lilisaadaoui6158 we individually might not live on. The humans as a specie, will live on. Would we learn anything and will get better prepared to take on next challenges? I doubt it. look at history, We never learn, but we live on. Same game, Different players.
yeah except a lot of people died, also the threat of nuclear war and global warming increases every day
We are living on , N O W.
We ARE all one, re spirit or who we really are; we are unique as to our physicality and how we were conditioned. This conversation makes so much sense to me. I am so grateful to know that I am not alone in my own realizations. WHEW! This conversation is truly a treat!
What I got from it is, The conscious processes are the same for everyone, but the body is individual. That thought is memory which depends on knowledge, and the accumulation of knowledge is infinite, therefore thought is limited by creating division through the ignorance of having limited experience. Memory creates time which creates thought and illusory ideals for the future, therefore time is a mental construction and the observer is the observed
Intelligence can act through memory and knowledge, but is distinct. To free intelligence/compassion, it must be freed from acting through thought.
Dr. Bohm clarifies what it is to be awake by asking relevant questions. I'm so grateful to listen to these intelligent men who offer love and compassion to us all.
@spiro certainly not you
"As you can see in the politicians, thought is very limited. In fact, it is almost nonexistent."
Ha!
Reminds me of something Alan Watts once said about speaking to a room full of high-ranking military officers:
"I conveyed many degrading things about them all, and departed long before any realized it."
😆
marshalllhiepler Beauty has many wondrous forms.
We can also see in ourselves,as our knowledge is very limited and thought is a response from knowledge which is stored in brain as memory, so thought is also limited.Even the knowledge of the scientists are very miniscule, if consider cosmos.
Not thought but knowledge. He further adds we create confusion when we don't have adequate knowledge of what we are dealing with.
Jiddu laughing is a rare sight, heh
Well done Bohm.❤
You did an excellent job
I feel very grateful to have the opportunity to hear and see those two talking.
Me too. So very grateful.
But i can only hear krishnamurthi.. 😞
Thus you divide and invite conflict ;-)
Better start getting back humanity and forget about these two...they're gone.
To all involved with making and sharing these uploads, your work is appreciated. 🌻
I could listen to these discussions for hours. Really makes you think. Maybe that’s the “problem” :)
Watching this, as well as all the other JK videos, and with Dr Bohm, we can see an extraordinary conveyance of ideas, or truths, that define who we are and what our reality is. The depth is unequalled, and it is also quite easy to see how the self-appointed gurus of the day have no real realization of the self or consciousness. To look persistently and closely at the self brings about an understanding of why we are so troubled as individuals and as groups, nations, and so on. Paradoxically, though, it takes a rare type of person willing to see what is so obvious, which is also what leads to suffering on every level.
I thank Rupert Spira, from Non-dual, for beautifully and easily explain the divine I (that we all are) and the entity I (our personalities).
I closed my eyes and just for a long moment listened past their unanswered questions and heard through their unquestioned answers... and heard the birds chirping in the background of the thoughts.
And a lion grabbing a dikdik and tearing it to pieces.
Nice
So grateful these conversations took place and we can watch them in 2020. Psychologically
Perfect interview
Gracias por el trabajo de traducción
Thinking together is so much better than thinking separately or competitively.
You summed it up.
Jennifer Grove Hmm? Try substituting “Thought” for “thinking” ?
It´s good to practice thinking as a hobby. Means you are taking it just the right amount of serious.
Very true
Just look at their humility🙏🙏🙏
Yes because where there is true wisdom there is humility.
Two most inquisitive minds. Their views do blend. Scientific view and highly spiritual is just two opposing same time contributing forces of dual reality, however they co-exist in the end.
Eccezionali tutti e due....
Mm
There is no end. But yes
Also notice the calmness and serenity in their talk. Love and compassion is vividly manifesting.
Summary
1.All human's consciousness is one
2. knowledge is limited so thought is also limited
3 thought creat duality which further bring conflict
4 All kind of 'should be' is nothing but just escape from 'what is?'
5.Movement of time is thought which creat individuality .
Actually it is all about psychological time, right?
1. -
2. Knowledge is time (to think and to memorize needs time and space. and we build up from past experiences. So it's never "new"/fresh)
3. s. 2. Also: Thought operates in time. Time and Space (= movement) are one. Everything in Spacetime is dual.
4. Yes. "Should be" is a timebased escape
5. Time - Thought - Ego
The difference from the complete silence is individuality which is an illusion of perception
SB_Music psychological time is the only time you are perceiving. It is loosely based on real time...through perception..although one needs instruments of measurement to be sure
There is one thing that I would like to underline. K. is implying, that psychological time is thought, but inside there is no time. This is the bringer of chaos. I felt this when Mr. Bohm was making references to the table and so on, we seem to convince ourselves that the inside works the same way as the outside. Do you agree with me on this? Do you get what I am aiming at ? We copy the experience from the outside. This is the violence K. is talking about. Thought is also(as stated) experience. Without experiencer there is no experience. Because the experiencer is the self, copying, living from memory, knowledge, movements. This is why thought is a movement.
Can someone please go into this with me please. Does this make sense to you ? Because it is making a whole lot of sense to me. This is why when thought observes itself, everything stops, because our notion of time (inside) meets the time outside, in a different way, without memory! It is facing something new. This is real meditation.
@@DemoniacLL Wow! I must thank you for making me realise this. Thank you!
I think everything Krishnamurti explain is clear, logical, and directly understandable
But Bohm mind will not hear it because he tries to intellectually make sense of something that is not rational unless I experience this in ones body, he actually seems to be a rather un-embodied intellect
According to Wikipedia Jiddu Krishnamurti labeled as philosopher and David Bohm labeled as scientist respectively.
But their dialogue is not about science nor philosophy but "something completely different" (C) Monty Python.
Jk can't be termed as a philosopher.. But it's true that the english language doesn't have a word to define what Jk was doing.!
A musical harmony to listen is a movement without thought or thinking to listen to a note or tune perhaps however the note came from a act of a other so for myself it can be possible momentarily until I think of the instrument or try to find the note being played it is difficult to separate thought period from any movement of consciousness because it is an act of a conscious thing. To think without thinking. To listen without repeating in the mind what is being said . To listen to the word without repeating it in mind.
Thanks for the camera in the room when these men were alive and sat together for a conversation. This topic is still relevant in 2022.
Hi! I'm coming from the future (2024) to say it's relevant here too! 😀
Things are becoming increasingly crazy
@@LisaCCurvellototally agree
It takes tremendous intellect, confidence and clarity to question JK !! DB is shining in this one, as others have appreciated too! I loved JK’s expression at 33:20 as DB gently points out how the “insanity” of separateness isn’t evident to all!!
This talk is a blessing!! 😍🙏
It seems like we are going round in circles trying to describe consciousness, something that exists outside of time and space.
Beyond* time and space
Amazing talk, truly great! What is so good about this one compared to K's public speeches is that there's D. Bohm who grounds K in the unfortunate reality of our dull minds which are completely absorbed in the illusions of thought. K is just so much ahead in terms of clarity of mind compared to the average human being that, if not for D. Bohm gentle approach, I feel the talk would lack all the crucial parts that provide at least some bridge to K's understanding of things. Something that is very much lacking in his public discussion or talks with D. Allen. Treasure!
Amazing to have recorded such a great man talking with some one intelligent..
and very sad to seen he's right..
Of all the talks and discussion that K has given, nobody quite listens, understands, and reiterates clearly like David Bohm.
This might be the best talk with Krishnamurti I have seen where his dialogue partner actually manages to evoke clarifications of Krishnamurti's somewhat unconventional understanding of key notions like time, thought, mind, pleasure, love etc and relate them to our Western understanding of such terms, pointing out the differences. He's really building a bridge, breaking the language barrier.
It's a pessimistic start. But that's the reality.
In the end of video , the tragedy , or the pain in Krishnamurti voice we can feel " all that is it's right here , in the front , in this moment , but the tragedy of it is he can't show it, he can't push anyone here , everybody has to reach here on their own until then we all r just lost souls "
2 minutes in and I'm already struck by the uncustomary syncopation of their dialogue ... I have never witnessed this conversational style, both in its percussive nature and the manner in which they weave shared concerns, though the tone is familiar and cherishable
I've always loved Krishnamurti, since the first time I randomly saw his mug on a paperback in a bookstore in 1971 or so. But not only is David Bohm obviously brainy, he seems like such a good guy too.
"DON'T THINK YOU ARE, KNOW YOUR ARE"
Manleo M Hmm? Why not Thought you are Thinking as you are? Regards
Correct, Jiddu. The future you said is grim and depressing in this interview. Dead on. I was a kid when this was filmed and here I am, educated but unemployed for 2 years. Not sure what the real future is.
The consciousness can perceive the insight, which is not limited
the most happy and smiling krishnamurti I have ever seen❤️
Multumesc.
Multumesc ! ❤
Wow this is a treasure! Bohm’s questions are genuine and deep. The answers from Krishnamurthy changes something very fundamental in our understanding
Thank you
Thank you for sharing. It has moved me intensively. A privilege indeed!
Sadly Bohm never truly, deeply under Krishnamurti. As he still fell prey to his “neuroses”, being diagnosed with “depression” and even undergoing ECT to “treat” it,
I suspect it’s because his works directly lead to the 300k+ death in WW2, such a moral and gentleman can’t face the true truth of the misery and destruction his own mind created.
Right to the heart. We are fortunate to hear this dialogue and the last part reminds me of the cave allegory
They are sitting in the different chairs ....
I think the missing word is Desire. Thought is limited to Desire. If mankind is to change, Desire must change.
Desire cannot live where there is no perceived difference. Cannot live without identification.
Exactly the experience is as it is. The thinker is the thought. One whole thought, one whole moment, only one whole is, that what it is. At last confirmation! Thank you for these liberating words. Freedom as the thought.
David bohm and krishnamurti . spectacular team.
“Don’t try to fix the world. If you try to fix it you’ll only make it worse.”
- Old Zen saying
grandiosidade de sabedoria...
57:35 brief summary.
this conversation seems to suit the context we are living right now....
Life should not b this hard but people make it this way.4 there selves
.We all can do this some times
Being is the hole structure o being.look out side r selves conflict..love this .We r all one black white human....
I understand from this talk that 'mind' or 'thought' is the cause of suffering and that the 'direct perception' removes it.
1:57 Bohm says " The future seems very grim " with a very large smile on his face (why would you smile saying that ?), immediately J.K. repeats what he said with a more serious tone and wipes his smile and even slightly looks like he realized it and felt bad for smiling, I'm not trying to point out anything I just thought that was strange, strange in a funny maybe even meaningful way, it had a metaphysical flavour for me.
@Deimus' CLips He wasn't smiling.
Bohm ALWAYS had that mannerism when he spoke. Always
I think It's a question worth grinning about, we're all in this mess together, alone and afraid in a world we never made. When you really understand the reality of life the only thing left to do is laugh yourself stupid.
I saw that too.
J.K. Is immediate, Bohm is still conceptual.
The corona virus is another one of those problems...our future is grim, depressing if we keep acquiescing.
Una joya!!! 💎
When ai comes everyone will come to this video's ans conversation
Bohms honesty and openness is a rare thing and very valuable. I watched another conversation, I think it was another because it was black and white. Kmurti asks Bohm if he would like to have things explained sometimes, and Bohm says( paraphrasing) no, I dont, but for the sake of clarity for viewers please continue.
Action can be peacefull
The art of acceptance of reality 🙏
The real knowledge, the only one that actually matters, is right here, free of cost 🙏 and majority of the humanity is running behind OTT subscriptions for useless, distracting, dead entertainment
Thank you for this. So grateful!
Perhaps instead of "what will make one see," point out that "we don't see that we don't see," as Mary Zimbalist once beautifully put it in a dialogue with Krishnaji...
Unless we close our eyes... Then the only thing we can see, is what we can´t see. Closing your eyes is the best way to open them.
Why you dont let Krishna speak you cut him all the time !!!!!?????
Fear or love/compassion seems to be the polarity that divides experience/humankind/ consciousness into actions of separation/fighting/competition or sharing/creating/embracing
a porta foi aberta a humanidade...
We forgive by letting go not by remembering we let go.
Awesome.
To my knowledge it seems evident that we live on all levels at the same time. Awareness at one level means there is no separation, unbounded. When awareness is focussed to point value, it is complete fragmentation. Conditioning means stuck in the fragmentation of thoughts. Future is a thought, past is a thought, present does not at exist - all objective awareness is non real.
Neither real, nor not real. "Emptiness is form and form is emptiness" (The Heart Sutra)
Correction:Present is the only thing that is real, rest is illusions. Learn to live in Present.
1983 - "Jobs are very limited" - 2024 "Jobs are very limited that pay a livable wage"
We won't do anything that is not comfortable, satisfying, secure...1:19:10
Perfeito! Fico grato pelo trabalho de vocês e pelas palavras do Mestre
12:30 Seems that JK is using the word 'thought' as designated by citta in Sanskrit.
Yes . Chitta is the universal consciousness . The substrate in which everything exists . In a way chitta is divine . The power point plug lent to every human to exist
I'm inclined to think that he meant 'mind'. Consciousness is 'chitta'.
LA FORMA DE GANARSE LA VIDA EN EL FUTURO ES ATRA VEZ DEL TRABAJO CUANTICO.
Without love and compassion there is no intelligence......1:12:20
And without that intelligence there can be no love or compassion.
You know you are in the conversation with these men right? Dont think about how that is possible if you are questioning that in anyway then you aren’t ready to join the conversation and thats okay. Just keep listening. Love ya.
thought as the source of intention is where it goes wrong. intuition/knowing as the source of intention is the correct thing, while intuition/knowing also leads to thought, and that thought is pure, it is the the result of knowing. so thought is not wrong, it is when we think with a lack of intuition/knowing that we go wrong. example: someone in school asks you for help with their homework. you see immediately that it is the right thing to help them out. thoughts that result from that are pure. on the contrary, if you act out of thought, you may think egoistically (I don't have time) or abstract into justice (let's say the other really needs help in understanding and you still say "they should do it on their own, they will learn better", while they won't learn better that way).
18:19 David Bohm says: "You can see in the case of politicians that knowledge is very limited, in fact is non-existent!". Funny, TRUE, and SAD statement! 41 years have passed since those words were recorded and nothing has changed for the better!
Our Mind ist create out of the Body, maybe from the whole Body and not only the Brain is involve in that, Time and Space are create out of our Brain which can think and make Predictions (see E. Kant).
Thinking and Emotions produce a sense of Individuality in everyone of us, our own Mind, which is unique.
The underlying Substrat of the whole Universe is Consciousness.
Consciousness is not as many as many conscious entities
are out there,our Mind come to be because of Consciousness like
everything else in the Universe or Multiuniverses.
Diversity,Change,Time and Space are created by the mind.
We All feel our individuality, mind,emotions thoughts etc.
Everyone of us,the same Pattern.
Apparently many and that is the Ilusion ,call Maya or the Devil for
The West Religions.
We all,not only humans,are One.
That is not to say that Life or the World are safe and nice.
Survival will always be first.
Be calm and strong and a little better every moment.
it doesn't last too long before we are put out from all of this.
enjoy the Ride in the meanwhile.
The Joy is only in You,always be.
Love.
Expression of such a passion on humanity last part of conversation , amazingly serious , full of love
I see a war between science and philosophy... Science - wanting a straightforward answer, a logical solution to every problem in question and PHILOSOPHY - which only leaves one with more and more questions