I just put in a Fujitsu mini split and initially had the same concern. My energy monitor showed 190W even when the unit was off. My energy monitor doesn't measure voltage but only measures current, like yours. The issue is, without measuring voltage the energy monitor can't account for power factor and assumes everything is a power factor of 1.0. When I measured the power draw with a unit that takes into account power factor I get a draw of 5-6W.
Hmm very interesting, Thanks for the information! How do you measure it like that? My system measures the amp draw through the wires and converts it to watts so I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be accurate?
@@JeremiahMcintosh You need a power meter that measures power factor. Basically if your power meter isn't telling you the voltage for the circuit then it's just guessing on voltage and assuming power factor is 1.0. In order to calculate real power from an AC driven load the formula is voltage x current x power factor. My mini split shows a power factor of 0.02 when it's off. For my whole house monitor I use the Emporia energy system it doesn't consider power factor. I measured mine a few ways but for now I just took a smart plug that measures power factor and pulled the circuit board out and wired it in series. Emporia has put me on the list for the beta of their system that measures voltage and power factor so hopefully I can move to that in the future.
The only power draw that you have when the unit is not working is the crankcase heater and the pan heater. In every mitsubishi unit equipped with a “cold climate kit” like the FH series the unit will send a constant voltage in the compressor winding to keep it warm to prevent damage from liquid refrigerant building up in the compressor.The pan heater will be energized at 36 degres F and below otherwise the pan heater only comes on during the defrost cycle.
Sorry Crank case heaters are for keeping the oil in the system warm at all times . If you have liquid in the compressor which is a scroll compressor 90 percent of the time it’s not going to work period . Compressors only pump vapor .
I install a lot of the Mitsubishi and Fujitsu equipment. Keep in mind these are variable capacity VRF systems so you will not get a report from honeywell based on ON/OFF run time since it doesn't turn on/off like a conventional system. When you turn the system off with the remote, the compressor and all functions shut down, but because a heat pump uses a compressor, which contains a mixture of oil and refrigerant, a small amount of power is constantly consumed to keep the compressor warm which prevents the unit from trying to compress liquid refrigerant and oil when it is turned on. When the unit is running this standby compressor heating current is not used since you are compressing and moving the refrigerant. Bottom line is the continuous power usage when off is to prevent compressor damage. Also check power factor because it is not a resistive load it is inductive. At such a low current the power factor correction circuitry does not function properly and current measuring equipment that does not properly measure power factor will give you false high readings. The compressor windings are powered to provide heat using a combination of PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) and PAM (Pulse Amplitude Modulation) from the 325 V to 350 V DC (Direct Current) bus through the DC IPM (Digitally Comutated Inverter power module).
They must have given you the discount price because of all the other equipment you had them install. I usually install the Mitsubishi FH18 models for $5000 if it is just through the wall and down to the outdoor unit mounted on a stand. If I have to mount the indoor unit on interior walls or install condensate pumps, extra line hide etc then the price goes goes up from there.
Thanks for all the great info, you sound very knowledgeable on this unit. Yes They did give me a discount on the unit and said it was normally $4,500-$5,000.
@@dynamicenergysolutions180 Is $9500 a good price for MXZ-3C24NAHZ2 with a 3 FH-Series heads 12BTU,9BTU,and 6BTU? I am going to have the unit on the 2nd floor
@@sahl212 I do not install multi zone systems because the efficiency amd performance is not as good as individual 1:1 systems. $9500 is a great price for the system you mention, but be sure the installer will stand behind you when you have problems with some rooms overheating or overcooling. Remember that 24,000 BTU compressor will not be able to provide the same variable capacity to a single operating head that a dedicated compressor per head will provide. The system will bleed refrigerant through the other zones to lower the capacity in the active zone. Also if you have a problem with the system all 3 zones will be down. Another reason why you want only 1:1 systems is only enough refrigerant to operate that zone. I am currently working on a 28 zone commercial VRF geothermal system with reheat (simultaneous heating and cooling), an expansion valve failed and blew out all 135 lbs of refrigerant into the boiler room. If someone had been in there when it blew they would have gone unconscious and died within a short time. I am in favor of keeping refrigerant volume to a minimum and the safest way to do that is with individual 1:1 zones. I only have two 12,000 btu FE series Mitsubishi's heating my 3,000 sq ft log home and average $.89 a day to keep the house 68 and lower all summer and 72 + all winter. Keep in mind a 12,000 btu Mitsubishi or Fujitsu single zone will provide about 20,000 + BTU of heat! Multi zone systems also use vapor injection on the compressor that gives you more heat at lower temperatures but the efficiency drops considerably. Single zone systems do not typically use vapor injection at low temperatures, they just use a higher capacity compressor.
@@dynamicenergysolutions180 Thank you so much for the information! I am going to get a 12 year warranty on parts. Unfortunately, the labor is just one year. I know 1:1 efficiency is way better but it is also not realistic for me to have three outdoors units and the cost to install these units will be more expensive. I am probably going to run the 12BUT most of the time alone. When I run the 9BTU and 6 BTU, I am probably going to run them together. Again thank you for the information
I checked my Mitsubishi MUZ-FE12NA 12,000 btu Hyper Heat mini split that we installed in 2012 and it uses .06- .07 amp/17.5 watts when turned off. When just the indoor fan is running it uses .08 amp/20 watts. I used a UEI DL379B clamp meter. What you are finding is not normal at all. I would highly recommend that you contact the installer and get them to verify that it is indeed drawing high watts when not in use and let them figure it out. Then you can report back to us and tell us how that went.
I just put the same system in, I'll check the amp draw to see what it is. But this sounds reasonable. You need to remember, the system has electronics that need to be powered up 24/7. Also, the outdoor unit has (or should) a pan heater, I think that runs 24/7 when the outdoor temp gets below "x". Get rid of the hand remote, they're shit and the return air temp sensor is not accurate at all. When you run with the remote the system will run longer because it will vary the fan speed depending on demand forcing longer run times. Use the wall mounted thermostat and set a fan speed. Plus with the thermostat you have you can program the fan to shut off when the thermostat is not calling.
I have 4 outdoor units all are Mitsubishi Hyper Heats and 1 LG RED, ALL have base pan heaters, the mitsubishis turn on during defrost cycle AND at 36 degrees outdoor temp LG is similar but dont know the exact temps... ADD that all up and i was pulling about 650 watts. So i disabled all my base pan heaters.. problem solved. BUT i did install my units myself and have all of them 20 inches off the ground. Its been 3 years and NO ISSUES it has been fine. no issues with the little ice that builds up on the coils at the base of the unit.. I did the same thing, the return air sensors are garbage, they are accurate but you need them in the living space so i did the KUMO CLOUD with the remote wireless sensors.. FANTASTIC. I grouped all the units together in the ALEXA app so all i do is say "Alexa, warm up (or cool down) the house" all zones come on at a predetermined setpoint..What great technology. pair that with the 50 solar panels on the house, I feel im doing my part for the environment.
You’ve gotten your answer a few times now. It’s your method of measurement. Your meter is assuming 240v to calculate watts when it may only really be using 24v depending on the controls in the outdoor unit. Do you homework and study the wiring diagrams and take your own current and voltage readings at the outdoor unit.
I had electric baseboards, my average bill l was $700 to $1400 a month depending on if inturned all of them on. I installed 3 fujitsu low ambient temp units, (2) 9kbtu and an 18k btu. Ran it 24/7 on maximum. My bill dropped to $178.00 on average and heated my home. Average temp in my house is 78°f. Upstate new york Love these units
Wow those baseboards were really sucking down the energy! Thanks for the info I really appreciate it! Mine is an 18k btu and happy overall but the phantom power draw is still driving me crazy!
A Font Thanks for your comment! Do you know which model the Fujitsu you purchased? Is it the RLF series by chance? I’m purchasing a unit next week and can’t decide between the Mitsubishi Hyper heat FH model or the RFL Fujitsu. Wonder which is better or more energy efficient for northern climates. I’m also looking to cut down my baseboard costs!
@@djstormz9522 i purchased the outdoor Fuaou36Rlxfzh $2806 and indoor (2)Fuasu9rlf1 $867 and (1) Fuasu18Rlf $734. Good luck, you can't go wrong with fujitsu or Mitsubishi
@@djstormz9522 Mitsubishi is the way to go! Myself and other contractors I have talked to love them! They tell me they have almost no trouble with them including me and my customers. As far as which is more efficient, it depends which model you are comparing. Overall across the whole line, Mitsubishi probably has higher efficiency. Email daniel@loweryourheatingbill.com for more info.
WELL DONE, I put in 4 units 6 zones, 3 hyper hears and an LG red, what a difference. I love them. my favorite home improvement project BYFAR. (installed myself) electrician by trade.
Likely crankcase and pan heater. Hyper-heat systems come with these enabled as part of the cold weather package typically. In general a Hyper heat will run a larger power draw due to more compressor amp draw as well.
Concur on sump and crankcase heater...all heat pumps draw power at certain temps nature of the game... if I paid for that's system it would be running its arse off not sitting as a supplement. Give that man some copper pennies I need some wire sound like he can make 18 gauge out of them.
@@JeremiahMcintosh watching the video your wearing a jacket and no leaves on trees so based video and date of video led one to believe your explaining a winter scenario.
@@JeremiahMcintosh get your service tech to use amp meter to find source of power draw. Have him dig out service manual follow check of defrost heater make sure to get ohm readings on RT61 62 64 65 and look at the temperature resistance chart. I have limited experience on Hyper but have on other M series and all my customers state they hardly notice the unit. Hope your service tech can give you some insight, best of luck.
That power drawing show in your app is because the energy monitoring system you're using doesn't take voltaje to have a more accurate measure in watts and the other reason is the power supply in that split unit use low voltaje to make all the electronics to work, so is drawing amp but at more low voltage but your monitoring app only takes amp and make the assumption of the voltage, hope this help
Hmmm 🤔 very interesting and thanks for the help. I will definitely have to check into that! Wouldn’t I still be getting charged for the current it is drawing which is amps?
@@JeremiahMcintosh No because your utility meter is much more advance and also more sensitive and is capable to identify voltaje at all time, it does not just take the amps. The same happened to me I have an all house energy monitory system and it showed me a ghost drawing on my pool pump but when I compare redding against my utility meter, the meter only count the right amount
That does seem very high. I have Fujitsu with pan heaters and they do draw maybe 100w when the pan heater is running. I have an emporia vue energy monitor and only have a clamp on one leg and let the app apply a 2x multiplier. If you have two clamps make sure that your app is not doubling your wattage calculations.
Phantom Load is not really phantom. Your current draw is coming from the base pan heater. The base pan heater stays energized in the circuit to keep oil from slugging in extreme cold climates. This machine is made for wait for it... extreme cold climates. That being said, application and operation is the cause of the draw. Keep in mind this H2i unit is not intent for most applications. All standard Mitsubishi models without the pan heater will not have this issue.
Why would they Make the pan heater stay on even in the summer when using air conditioning? Why would they not put the pan heater on a thermostat like some other models?
Jeremiah Mcintosh some clients choose to run ac during the winter. Think restaurants, bars, businesses, etc. To cover the broad spectrum of installs, they decided to power the pan heater when the unit is energized. This way, if someone turns the ac on in the winter, it doesn’t destroy the compressor. Hope that helps
Thanks for the info. I think an easier More cost effective energy efficient solution would’ve been to install an outdoor temperature sensor and have the heater kick on below a certain temperature regardless of what mode you are in.
I was going to ask if it had a pan heater. It looks like they are optional. I am working on ordering a system today. I will be happy if it heats when it is 20 out side. I plan on keeping the electric heat set 5 degrees colder than the heat pump.
It shouldn't stay on over x temperature. If I only would rember what that is. Anyway there is a temperature sensor on the outside unit thats used to controll it. But I wouldn't trust your measuring equipment. Use a real fluke meter. Also it takes some time for the pump to go in to sleep mode. Btw, a Samsung heating pump for 5 years now as main heating and cooling. Got zero complaints At worst it draws 14kwh a day in ~ -15F. Even if it would crap out today the savings have been enormous. It was around 2200$ installed. After the geothermal heating this is the next best thing. Just the cost of installing a geothermal system om a old house is just to high to justify it.
I've been looking for the past 2 hours to find someone demonstrating using the remote control. And virtually 100% of the online searches for a demonstration of the remote control for a Mitsubishi heat pump end up with explaining how heat pumps work and never talk about the remote so I'm really glad that you touched upon the remote control in your video. Really good info... Yipes the vampire loads were greater than i imagined. I noticed during a power outrage my heat pump lights stayed on for several hours though it wasn't running until we regained power. is that to maintain it's programming?
Ben Brown - I found this link that explains the Mitsubishi remote control in detail. I was disappointed to see here that the remote control can't be used as the room temp sensor - the room temp is read at the point that the wall unit is mounted. Daikin and others have options to use the remote, so a user can bring the remote to a far corner of the room to ensure that the heat stays on until that far corner is at the set point. Link - th-cam.com/video/-tVcsdI34yo/w-d-xo.html
We installed heat pumps in our house for heating purposes(primarily). We did run these units for a month to heat the house. Our electric bill is skyrocketing after installing these units. We got a $650 bill for the month of November(Consumed 2200Kwh while our average consumption is around 500 Kwh). We installed two outdoor hyper heat units(30K BTU each) and six indoor inverters. Total installation cost was $20,000. Our yearly solar credits are used in just one month by these units. We switch back to our natural gas heat. Now two costly paper weights are sitting at the back of my house and doing nothing. We called Mitsubishi and they sent engineers to find some potential issues in the units and they did not find anything unusual. So, now these units are not of any of my use after spending $20,000. Installer never told us that these units are electric guzzler and the operation and maintenance cost is too high for these units.
Spent $23000 for 5 heads and my electric bill went from $220 to $539. We have only been using 3, 9K units. We were able to heat with oil at a much cheaper cost. This sucks! Wasted money, I could have bought the best and most efficient oil boiler made for less and spent 1/3 in cost to heat my home.
Thank you for sharing that. I can't imagine how bummed I would be! I have been watching tons of heat pump vids for weeks, installs, been planning on getting one, but just this evening started researching real life costs of electricity bill. I am surprised this high cost is not in way more vids. You should make a vid to tell it to others. My old oil furnace doesn't sound so bad now after reading your experience. Thank you
Jeremiah, this is a great post and review. Much appreciated! Very recently, I just added mini-splits throughout our home and removed all old attic ductwork, compressors, and air handlers. Long story. Perhaps you might be able to shed light on how to reduce the noice levels (~ 24dB) coming from the condensate pumps that the HVAC company "conveniently" (in my eyes) forgot to tell me about and how they are needed on interior wall units. The noise (every several minutes) is driving us CRAZY. Thanks.
I have a Heil ductless 22 Seer 11 HSPF in a 1200 SF basement. The unit is a 12,000 btu and it keeps all of the space a toasty 72 degrees without problems . It is also all open space. Sounds like you got a very good deal for both the systems. Mine was 4800 for just the one. Upstairs is done with a 2.5 ton Trane XL16i power bill for all electric home runs 200 bucks a month
In which state do you live and at what outside temperature are you able to achieve 72 degrees in the basement? I am considering such a system in Boston and I am told that on days with temperatures below zero degrees, these all electric systems fail to provide adequate heat.
I’m in Pennsylvania and have been really impressed with how well this puts out heat in cold weather but in my installation this is installed on the second story and The heat from the downstairs furnace I’m sure rises up and helps out a little bit. This hyper heat system will heat down to pretty low temperatures but The colder it is the more electricity it uses and the more it cost but It seems to be pretty efficient.
Thanks for discussing the Honeywell Thermostat option for the Mitsubishi Heat pump. I am definitely interested in that option. We use the Honeywell thermostats for our boiler heating. We specifically choose those because we could see and control the room temperature via the internet. This lets us turn off the vacation mode and set the heating or cooling when we are away and on our way home. It makes some sense that the system will always be drawing some power. It is on even when its not actually doing the heat transfer because the electronics inside are on to measure and communicate. Then there is the issue of the electricity automatically used by the defrost pan.
just got a massive double 48,000 BTU Mitsubishi Hyper heat system installed in my home. 8 heads total. it's an old farm house that has a horrible and inefficient propane furnace system. because of the ineffective way the duct work was installed (3 out of the 4 bedrooms upstairs have no ductwork at all), i was paying $1000 a month in propane bills. I live in Upstate NY and the winters can be nasty. I just had this system installed and now i have heat in every room. No doubt my electric bill will go up but my main goal is to make the biggest dent possible in that propane bill. plus i have the nice bonus of central AC which i've never had in my life. it made sense to me because of the way the house is and the fact it's propane. If it was natural gas it may not have been worth it. Even if i cut the propane bill in half ($500/month) the system will pay for itself in 5 or so years.
PIE. P=IxE. Or Power (watts) = Intensity (amps) x Energy (voltage). So your 115 watt system x 1.77 amps = 203.55 watts. So whether on or off you have a device (maybe a thermostat) that draws 1.77ish amps.
Just hooked some Sense flex CT clamps to my Mitsubishis- a mini split hyper heat and a multi split hyper heat- and the phantom draw is around 5 to 6 Watts
@@JeremiahMcintosh I've only had the energy monitoring hooked up to the Mitsubishis a few hours but it seems to fluctuate. Right now the living room unit is off but apparently using 65W.
@@JeremiahMcintosh if it gets cooler out , around 45° f or below, it'll regularly pull 65W for around a half hour then go back to around 5W over and over again even when off. If I know I won't be using it for awhile I've taken to turning the breaker off
Phantom draw unlike a thermostat on-off type that shuts everything off the thermostat in an inverter unit is telling the inverter how much to run the compressor and fans there is the phantom draw for a lot of things in inverter AC's the inverter has to stay on all the time, the thermostat to, and other electronics not to mention the compressor heater to keep the oil from becoming hard, let the oil get thick and it will kick off the overload when it starts up or you will have a COLD room.
I have the 2016 version of that same unit. I installed the RF wall controller & never use the handheld. I'm surprised they still use that same handheld IR remote. That's crude by today's standards. As you implied, given they are high end units, they should come with that RF wall controller included.
You really ought to understand better why these system do what they do and why. Your “phantom power draw” is the inverter board sending power to one of the compressor windings to keep the compressor shell warm. If the compressor gets to coil the refrigerant will all migrate to the compressor and cause it to fill with liquid. The oil inside the compressor will float on top of the liquid refrigerant. The discharge line for the compressor in your unit is on the top so if this thing starts up cold it will slug and push the refrigerant oil out of the compressor. This may not be apparent immediately but will shorten the life of the system from 25 years “ ideal install talent and maintenance over the years” down to 5-10 years. So my recommendation is to find a reputable company that knows Mitsubishi well and keep the system up. These are fantastic pieces of equipment and hardly anybody knows much about them so measurements of power consumption and heat with infrared gun is not teaching people anything about these units.
Any heating and cooling system will draw power when even not in use. 1 it uses a sensor to monitor room temperature 2 most have a heater on the compressor or use the compressor windings to keep the oil warm and liquid refrigerant from migrating to the oil and washing oil off the bearings. Compressors can’t pump liquid refrigerant, it will destroy a compressor in short order.
What was the total cost. I'm looking to get a 4 or 5 zone system so that I can cancel my gas service. I'm getting a rooftop solar system installed and don't want any gas.
I installed the Gree mini split but I only look at the daily kWh the house is drawing. The energy used is minimal when consistent about .023 more or less and when it kicks on, it about .4 or less. I went with Gree because Mitsubishi was 3 times the cost over a Gree. Anyway, my daily usage is between 13 to 17 KWh a day.
Thanks for the video, are you able to run routines in Smartthings with this thermostat? I am going to have a mini split unit installed soon and I am leaning words the Mitsubishi unit. Thanks.
so did you ever figgure out how much phantom power its drawing and if you over estimated the cost? my dad lives in MI and wants to install a Mitsubishi H2 system as well in an upstairs addition. Using three 9,000BTU heads for a total of 27,000 btu.
There is still phantom power draw but there has been some controversy over it in the other comments. Overall I’ve been happy with the unit and it works great. The only problem I had was recently when temperatures went down to zero for 2 days straight it stopped working and threw a U4 error code which was "Error detail Outdoor thermistor short/open”. I was able to shut the unit down, turn it back on and it began working just fine and is still working. I’m actually surprised how much heat it puts out when it’s down to those temperatures for not having any back up heating element. One thing I’ve noticed, though, which I think a lot of units are like this is that sometimes it blows cold air during the heat cycle because it reverses to keep things defrosted.
I installed 2 mitsubishi hyper heats and one lg red, 3 head unit....heres the issue with these units.. they all come with base pan heaters for EXTREME COLD climates with where you have 3 days in a row below freezing.. I actually disconnected my base pan heaters and installed a manual switch if i need them to operate... its a bit out of the box but i did it for the POWER SAVINGS...REPLY TO THIS IF YOU HAVE OTHER QUESTIONS.
@@danidiamond you just have to find the harness that connects to the base pan heater and interrupt it with a switch.. some basic electrical skills are necessary
I’m quite sure the pan heater only comes on during defrost to stop the melted frost turning into ice in the drain pan which means a switch is unnecessary
Max D I tested this and that is not correct. On Mitsubishi’s The pan heaters are on ANYTIME below 36F. Which means if you have 2 separate units your drawing about 400 watts at Idle. I’m an electrician, and verified this myself with an AmpMeter.
2 annoyances with this model (installed an 18k btu HH model) is the crappy remote which has a weakest beep sound and horrible screen (try reading it from an angle, I can’t). Second annoyance, the damn thing overshoots the set temp. Ex. I set the cooling temp to 24C, it’ll cool down to 20 but the compressor never shuts off.
It’s really hard to tell but I have three of those monitoring systems and it seems that they have been pretty close to accurate. I have one on my main panel to monitor my whole house one on my garage panel for just my garage and one clamped just on the mini split. It would be roughly 144kwh/month which is about $16 a month sitting idle based on my current rate. Keep in mind though while it is actually running it is using that 200 W so it’s really only sitting idol probably half that time.
@@JeremiahMcintosh There has been discussing on sites related to the detection of inverter devices by whole house monitors and about half the comments see no detection or detection of one leg of the 220 supply only . Accuract is debatable in any case. Whole house systems match watts to one appliance and inverter devices draw variable wattage and cant build a history and algrithems and it appers that issue has not been resolved over at least six years. Hyoer heat units comes with a heater pan to keep ice from forming and the thermostat may be malfunctioning. All mini split are basicly a computer with a little refrigerant built around it so 200 watts might be the electronics keepin warm!
I was searching for phantom drain after just installing a minisplit last week and seeing 300W when all are off. I'm using the same Aeon HEM v1, though the drain appears to agree with the main power to the house when switching the breaker on and off. In our case, I have 3 zones, and a 36K BTU condenser and with all three running the blower with no cooling needed at night, it's the exact same 300W. I'm thinking this may be something with the meters and will test with something more accurate.
They have small meters for sale on places like ebay so you can do it via just one circuit. The amperage was close to my Testo meter. I have one on my dryer. You have to place it on the "dominate" hot leg that carriers both the motor and heater amperage.
Jeremiah, why don't you call Mitsubishi Electric and ask this question about standby power draw? They are very responsive and helpful. That way you can get your answer and you could share that with us rather than asking the viewers if we have any knowledge. You will get all kinds of opinions from us but none of it may be true.
Looking at adding this to my historic home. No ducts so this is the best option but will have 5 heads and 2 outdoor units so this is concerning. Curious if you have heard any more on the phantom power. Also curious if it does it in summer. Thanks for the video
Hey John no I have not figured this out yet but it drives me nuts. It does still use 200 W in the summertime when turned off. I’ve seen another person comment on my video that says they have two outdoor units and theirs uses 400 W double mine and he has the same set up as me with the added thermostat. If you decide to get this system please let us know here if yours is doing the same I’m still trying to pinpoint why.
I need to find out what mine are drawing... I have two 48k btu outdoor units and 10 indoor units... just imagine if the draw is 200 watts per indoor unit..
Jeremiah Mcintosh when you turn your thermostat off, do the doors close on your indoor unit and one of the lights go off? I have a hunch that shutting your thermostat off is not fully shutting down your indoor unit..
Yes Andre when I shut the thermostat off the vent doors do close completely but the unit is still using 200 W continuously. If you figure anything out with yours please comment and let us all know on here. I have a feeling it’s the outdoor unit drawing the power but I’m not 100% sure.
Looks like your not the only one. www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/question/mitsubishi-mini-split-phantom-draw. Will circle back when I can get a meter installed in my panel.
Having a similar problem, have you made any headway? I am wondering if it is related to the MHK1. Reason I say that is I am running about 390 watts, with 2 MHK1s. I have my breaker off most of the time, can’t justify spending almost $70/mnth on phantom load
No I have not figured it out yet but it drives me insane and I appreciate your comment because I have been wondering if other people have been having the same issue or if I was the only one. Did you notice this issue before watching my video or have you known about it?. How many outdoor units do you have two? I was actually wondering the same thing About having the MHK1 connected. Wonder what other people’s experiences are that do not have the MHK1 connected
Jeremiah Mcintosh base pan heater and expansion valve heater, don’t shut breaker off it still is a lot more efficient than a traditional system, ghost load on a normal split system is about the same I have seen. 40-45 degrees and up the load should reduce
Thanks Bajaheat I coul see that but even on a hot summer day it is still drawing 200 W constantly. Why would the base pan heater still be on at that point?
Hey Jeremiah, I have an update (kind of). I was able to spend some time and took the covers off my branch box and condenser, and looked around with my IR camera. No waste heat anywhere to be found. Pan heater was the outdoor temp. I’m working with a guy at Mitsubishi now, will let you know what he comes up with
My Mitsubishi Hyper Heat H2i 6000 BTU, seems to be running all the time. Its super-cold and keeps the room amazingly cold and comfortable, but it never seems to turn off. Even when the condenser fan is off outside it still blows air in the room. Is this normal?
Yes, they are supposed to move the air around so you keep an even temperature in the room. If it causes you to feel too cold the that’s good because, you can raise your temp and save some money. They work so much better than any other type of AC
I had similar hyper heat systems installed in June. Just testing out heating tonight and noticing that the system blows out warm air for a couple minutes at high fan speed which i have it set at and then stops and repositions the blades horizontal. It cycles through this many times. Is this normal function? Its 59 degrees out now, controller set to 72, fan speed high, vanes pointing to the floor when heating. Manual says its low air temp or defrost. Hard to believe its defrosting so often with 59 degree outside temps.
Assumed its installed properly, this is normal. Once the temperature indoor room temperature is few degree closed to the controller temperature, the the air handle blow some heat on and off a little to maintain the temperature. However, if you want to raise/lower the room temperature immediately, just set the themostat all the way up or down for 15 minutes or so, and then dial back to normal temperature. Fujitsu has a turbo mode will provide over 100% rate btu to help cool/heat the room for 10 min and then automatically return to normal mode. Mitsubishi hyper should have the similar feature. At 59 degree outside, the defrost mode won't occur. You can confirm if the unit is on defrost mode by hand touching the indoor air handler coil, if its ice cold, then its in defrost mode in the winter. The defrost mode usually come up close to 32F and become little more frequent when its below 0.
@@danram247 Yes. Its how the unit gets information inorder to ramp up or down to deliver just enough heat or ac. Be aware, several whole house monitors have been found deficient in accurate discovery and recording of inverter devices. User groups have discussed this issue and mini splits and inverter microwave ovens are singled out.
I just installed a pioneer mini split. A big one. I’ve had it cranked high heat at 84. And my energy usage for the month is double. Seems like my unit is using a ton of energy. Doing something wrong ?
The higher the setpoint and the lower the temperature the more energy it’s going to use. Even with the power drawl mine is still pretty efficient but I never have mine turned up to that High of a temperature!
I have installed few dozens of these mini split primarily Fujitsu and few Haiers brand few years ago. I know that the inverter unit does have some phantom power draw but the Haier unit which is non-inverter drive, it didn't really draw much when its off, I recall using Kilowatt meter. My old house which I no longer live have a aou12rls3 unit which I measure it has about 20 watt draw for being idle. In my current house, I have one aou24rlxfz and aou18rlxfz with 5 indoor unit setup. Today, I was curious to see how much power the house is drawing with just the whole house light on and off roughly using clamp meter and I just happened to notice that the two Fujitsu unit on the double pole breaker drawing 1.44 amp while all 5 indoors units off on summer day with 75F outdoor. Without considering the power factor assuming the clamp meter is fairly accurate, this 1.44x240v=345Watt, this is a lot of Phantom power draw that I just realize. Power factor may play some role in the total wattage draw but can't be much as am pretty confident on the clamp meter; the amount of amp draw testing using the number of light bulbs, I believe the clamp meter is fairly accurate. Based on what I am reading so far, this phantom power draw seem to be very pervasive for any inverter drive mini split. May be next week, I will find a day or two to pull the breaker and just to see how much the utility meter measure for 24 hour of the power draw vs a day with similar house load but AC off with breaker on.
Let me get this straight....you have about 800 square feet, the average temperature for the last 30 days or so has been around 32 degrees and your bill was 33 dollars and you think you have a problem....I’ll be happy to swap electric bills with you....!
Regardless of what temperature it is outside if the unit is sitting idle with the thermostat off but the breaker on it uses about 144 kWh per month and that is about $18 of electricity. Again this is with the thermostat in the off position and the breaker on.
@@JeremiahMcintosh Have you check the outdoor unit to see it the base is warm? also if you change the mode to cold during the winter, will this stop the Phantom power draw?
Soon I will be installing a new Mitsubishi 36,000 Btu four head unit at my 1100 square foot condo at the beach ( Sea Isle New Jersey ). Should I pay the extra cost for the Hyper heat or just go with a regular heat pump? Currently we use it a few times in the winter, but that electric baseboard heat is expensive.
We love our hyper heat system it heats even in very low temperatures. The lower the temperature though the more energy uses but still worth it in my opinion. How much extra is it for the hyper heat?
phantom power draw that is not a base pan heater. that is some thing called “cranky case heater” which is some heating strip wrapped on the compressor. that is usually appear on the bigger systems and multi zone systems. that is used to heat the compressor crank case. compressor have oil inside and foreon will solve to it , that makes oil con not protect compressor. and When heated , that foreon will be evaprated , which garrents oil good. that crank case heater will run When compressor is not running and colder than about 160degrees. also , any heatpump that can heat in cold climate will have basepan heater , and it will run under freezing temperature regard less if that heat pump is useing.
We recently installed a York air source heat pump to replace a gas furnace and it too draws quite a bit of standby power, about 80 Watts in our case. Not a lot but still, seems like there's no good reason for it to be that much. I hear Tesla is considering going into heat pumps and perhaps they'll do a better job designing their products than the incumbents.
I Called the the customer service and they gave me this information for the system I am about to install mxz-3c24nahz2 with 3 heads. I can see a big difference in wattage consumption when the temp drop to 17F. Heating at 47F will use 1725W and 3557W at 17F. I tried to post the information but I am not allowed to post pic on the comment
I’m not sure if it’s the base pan drawing the current but it draws 200w regulardless of the temperature. Summer time is the same way even when the unit is off.
@@JeremiahMcintosh They are going to install my unit on Monday and If i have the same problem I will install this www.amazon.com/Migro-Outdoor-Resistive-Wireless-Compatible/dp/B07WC2BT85/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Migro+Outdoor+Smart+Wi-Fi+Outlet+Box%2C+Heavy+Duty+50A+Resistive+240VAC&qid=1605127614&s=industrial&sr=1-1
Jeremiah, I would like to make correction to the comment that I made earlier, just few comments below. Last week, my local utility company came to our neighbor and replace the old meter with the new Smart Digital meter. The weather is cool this week so I decided to conduct a simple test to confirm if this phantom power draw is really a problem or not. I shutoff the main breaker to the two outdoor Fujitsu units (18k to 2 indoor and 24k to 3 indoor). The new meter reading was shown as 73 KW mark on midnight of Monday. After 24 hours, on the midnight of Tuesday, the meter reading was shown 86KW. I turned on the main breaker to the two outdoor units, and on midnight of Wednesday, the meter reading was shown as 99KW. For the 48 hour period, the power usage in the house remain the same 13KW per 24 hour period with and without two Fujitsu units. I know I average around 10-11KW a day without running AC based on the calculation I had done in the past two years. Since I am working from home and two kids on remote school, 2-3 extra KW pull by three desktops and recently add small fridge which make sense that I am using 13KW average a day in the past two days. What this simple testing is telling me is that this phantom power draw is very negligible and the way we calculate the power usage by the current reading of clamp meter is not an accurate way for AC. I hope this easy the mind of everyone who is concerned about phantom power draw of mini split. The mini split is awesome when they installed and work right. They can be very difficult and costly to fix if electronic board or sensor break. A new unit will cost less than replacing a main circuit board or compressor. My very first Haier brand mini split that I installed at my father's house still running well after 12 years.
Have you actually put a multimeter on the lines to read real time phantom draw? I imagine there is always power to the head since its remote controlled, but the voltage used may translate to a different wattage drawn than what you app reports at the box.
My smart meter is clamped directly on the 2 positive wires coming from the breaker that is supplying the mini split and it measures the amps directly from those wires.
@@JeremiahMcintosh What do you mean by 2 positive wires? The supply is AC so there's no positive and negative. It is Line and Neutral or on 220V, a Line1 and Line2. Current should be the same on both wires. That's why when you measure current, you put the ammeter in series with the load. You can use multimeter with clamp that can measure current. Just clamp it on one of the wires. Mutiply the result by the operating voltage and you get the power.
I got a new Fujitsu Halcyon 3 tons central unit and it pull 1.5 amps on 240 that give 360w at OFF. There is a heater of 28w that is not working. Very disappointed about that but the machine is very quiet in heating. The contractor is coming tomorrow to look what is pulling it.
Please keep me posted and read the pinned comment. See if your contractor could test the system more accurately because Mitsubishi is telling me my test was wrong?
@@JeremiahMcintosh Hi ! We found that is the noise filter board that is filtering the line. We measured 1,4 amp before this board and 0.1 after. The contractor send this info to Fujitsu. Waiting for reply ! Honestly, I don’t have big hopes that is going to change ! But will see !
I have a MrCool Mini-split that has WiFi and allows me to completely control the unit remotely. It also has a follow me mode on the included remote which allows the unit to adjust the temperature based on where the remote is located.
1500 watts of ac would give you only 5200 but of heat using reg electric heat power when off is base pan heat. Not used with newer units. No phantom power. with my Fujitsu 24 k unit
14,500, you did really good... did you get any rebates for the mitsubishi??? I would have guessed you should.. I installed 3 hyper heat units at my house, but because i did all the work I could not get the utility company to agree with me that the rebates are still valid. so i lost on that but I have 6 seperate zones, 4 outdoor units, all with smarthome control I think im at just about $12,000 all in with electrical (electrician by trade) and paying a guy to do the startups..
Man that sucks you couldn’t take advantage of any rebates. At the time I did get a little bit of rebates I believe for the furnace and ac unit. If I can remember right possibly the mini split as well. With the price of everything going up I would hate to see what it cost now!
If you dont run pan heater in cold climate you will build up ice and compressor crankcase heat keeps oil from getting too thick on cold nights. My question is did your contractor do ACCA calculations ie Manual J calculations for heat gain and loss? Oversizing even in VRF systems its bad due to demand being lower then turn down of unit. But even with that 200watt calrod pan heater your compressor cop makes up for the amount of energy. I agree with second option of two heads two 12k heads on a 2zone 1.5 ton system. You can have up to 125% with overdrive vfd compressors in most minis.
I think you power consumption meter is assuming a perfect power factor. As in the unit is pulling power accross the entire sin-wave. When the unit is in standby i bet the power factor drops significantly, meaning its not really pulling 200w.
Everything has vampire power draw, hair dryers, microwaves, etc. unless you unplug from electric source. This is nothing new and I wouldn't depend on the installer for info call Mitsubishi directly with your concerns or have someone who knows what they are doing perhaps an electrician? Hope this works out for you
Being HVACR for 35 years, this is a service tech's nightmare! Need patience. Mitsubishi is one of the top-priced, but if you don't know how they work & how to work on them, they are a nightmare. The wall mounted ones like this are easier than the ceiling units. Need to make sure they are clean (coil & filter) and that's pretty much all you can do. Also the outside coil. God help you if you have to dig into these to change a bad sensor or circuit board. They pack 2 gallons of parts into a one quart bucket.
So did you ever determine that your power factor was off? I just had a Lennox mini-split heat pump installed with three heads. I already had the Aeon Energy Monitor as well as an Efergy energy monitor on my main and sub-panels and noticed 280 watts of continuous usage with everything off but the breaker on. Reading through all of these comments, I am not sure. It is a 240v circuit, and these devices measure amps, but how could it be anything other than 240v? When I am charging my electric car both my car and energy monitors show the same thing. I am going to try and do a couple of tests overnight using my house's electric meter and one night with the breaker on and one night with the breaker off and see if there is a difference. I may also have an RMS clamp meter and will see what that shows. I have ordered a device that will measure the volts and amps and is supposed to be a true power meter and will see what it shows as well.
@@WakeUpAmerican000s Yes, my measurements by all of my different methods all show just under 300watts, maybe close to 280. So when I am not using it I just shut off the breaker which is easy to do for me. I also tested my friend's Mitsubishi, which he uses pretty much year round for either cooling or heating, and it was similar.
@@WakeUpAmerican000s Mine is a Lennox, and my friend's Mitsubishi. The installers offered to cut a wire that goes to the heater since I wasn't really going to use it in the winter, but I opted not to do that. I talked to the engineers at Lennox who verified it, and acted like it was not a big deal. ?!
You should have went with the KUMO cloud... I did and im VERY happy with it.. I do love nice High Tech Thermostats but for this purpose the Kumo Cloud system works amazing..
I read the reviews in the app store... it was pretty bad... how long have you been using Kumo cloud? Do you have more than one unit? I want to have mini split systems in my whole house.
@@SoCalVipers Ive been using it for 2 years.. very flexible, with schedules and temperature setpoints in the schedules.. its better and WAY cheaper than redlink or the adapter with smart thermostats.. I have the wireless remote temp sensor which is way better for room comfort.. the battery is still good after 2 years. I love the kumo cloud.. it is a little archaic compared to say a nest but it works just fine. Im a huge techy and Im satisfied .
What is the model number of the unit you installed? Your monthly operational expense is really good considering that your heating an 800 square foot space. The contractor that said you need 2 units in the attic was the one offering you the most comfort in design. The velocity of the "throw" is rated at 17 feet. The temperature output should be closer to 109 degrees output if the unit is fully up to temperature. The 95 degrees you are describing is not ideal. The MKH1 tstat you have wastes some power and affects the efficiency of your unit. What you really need to do is call the engineering department at Mitusbishi to assist and educate you on the product. Your installer should have also provided you with the systems AHRI certificate and be able to provide you the official literature of its operational cost per year based on your local kilowatts per year. If you want to save money ditch the MHK1. In all fairness to a quality product like this work with the manufacture before posting a hasty review :).
You are telling this guy not to review a product until he works with the manufacturer?????? do you realize what you are saying? The guy has a concern about the unit pulling load when its not providing heat, I had the same concern, I pulled the plug on the base pan heaters, How does a thermostat affect the units efficiency rating????????? the outdoor unit controls the basepan heater, below 36 degrees F or in defrost too i believe. The unit is either calling or its not.. and it modulates accordingly.. please inform me how this stat affects the efficiency, looking forward to learning something new, i did KUMO cloud with the wireless sensors, those are great.,
Pjf inexperience guestimator? I'm sorry I'm not as polished As You Are. And I didn't get to see the guys build .so I don't know what he has for insulation and I don't know what size his roof Rafters are either. I have a 3rd floor apartment that is 750 square ft with spray foam and good windows and my Fujitsu low heat 15000 BTU hardly ever kicks on. Before I had the Fujitsu I had a little tiny window unit and it rocked the whole upstairs awesomely. I'm sorry I shouldn't have said anything I'll just mind my business next time thank you. Oh and on another note I had a 1500 watt space heater heating the third floor to 62° with spray foam in the house. I think that relates to like 5000 BTUs okay
my 1200btu mini split run of a pure sine wave inverter 4000w on heat o watt on heat then come on start 1050watt goes up 10watt ever ten sec up to 1480 watt if low out side 40 watt goes to1800 watt off down to 40 watt for 3min then off. 0 watt off my inverter . yes my inverter used 15 watts when mini split is off its all on batt . fed on 8 400watt 50v
Almost everything does the same thing, microwave, digital toaster, anything with a led light, digital display, go back to old school thermostat, just for kicks and check power draw
@@JeremiahMcintosh why not to contact Mitsubishi local representitive, or call direct, my feeling tells me communication between outdoor and indoor is constant ,,,, would like to know if ever, , good luck
Nothing Phantom about it ...The outdoor unit since it is a hyper heat has a base pan heater and a trickle heat circuit to keep the compressor warm plus the power to run the control board. The indoor fan is also running all the time so some power there too. Of course when the power is off you have 0 watts. Plus you got a 10 year warranty on the unit. check it in the summer time.
If you have an average home (1500 sft to 4500 sft), and live in the frigid north of the US or Canada, then Mitsubishi HyperHeat Multi-Zone is the most inefficient system for you. You are better off installing a Mr Cool Single Zone of Multi-Zone, because Mitsubishi multizone will short cycle frequently (going to ZERO to peak - shutting down and starting up), resulting in energy consumption of over 3000Kwh. Other companies have designed the systems to modulate but not Mitsubishi.
What is the seer rating..?? In addition, 20,000 BTUs in that size attic (attic being the operative word), with those large windows, coupled with all that humidity is too low.. Two tons (24000 BTU's or more) would be a minimum.
I think tour wrong. You can't guesstimate 800 sq ft you don't know what insulation type he has on the ceiling the walls you don't know what kind of Windows he has. How do you know he hasn't had a manual J load
@@MrSprintcat Due to your inexperience, you, are the "guesstimator here. I was a builder of second story additions, after removing the roof on one story homes, for more than 25 years and know the construction of the house better than you.. Insulated windows are considered holes in the walls no matter how good the R rating, which determines how big the hole is. 2x4 walls and 2x6 or 2x8 rafters can only hold so much insulation and compressing insulation has a negative effect on it's ability to insulate. Has he added some type of foam board insulation to the inside studs? It's the fact that the attic is the hottest place in the house because of the roof above. There is no ceiling or floor above it to shield it from full sun exposure.. In addition, I'll gamble there is no insulation in the rafters beyond the knee walls in the storage areas.. Also, the humidity is a giant factor.. That 18K a/c is committing suicide...
On all the flat spots on the ceiling I used R 50 insulation,on the angle coming down and the knee walls I used R38 and on all the side walls that are vertical in the dormers and 2 end 2x6 walls I used R 21. Also the windows have dual low E coating on them to help block out the solar heat gain.
@@JeremiahMcintosh The "angles" are the roof rafters... Are they 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 or 2x12, because cramming R38 (12" insulation), into anything less than a 2x12, with covering on both sides (sheet-rock and sheathing) is counter productive and lessens the R value and transfer of interior moisture... ..??
After reading a bunch of the comments, (along with repeated misunderstanding of the root cause) the best thing for everyone concerned might be to DELETE and redo this one. I'm sorry and I know making videos are a lot of work, and I DID learn something by reading these comments. Your description STILL says "I discuss ....and the power draw when the thermostat is off! " I'm soo close to giving this a thumbs down.
You don't know this I'm sure but those units and basically any well-designed heat pump has a compressor heater that is engaged when the unit stops running to stop the flow of liquid ref. Back to the compressor but you are the TH-cam (expert) so keep complaining about things you don't even understand
Nddd Bjss - Expert or no, I would never install a unit that draws 200 watts of power 24/7. That's not the way to save money on utility bills. If Mitsubishi units are doing this, it is an important data point for users to have so that they can shop around for more efficient solutions.
ZZZRSC - A Google Nest has a tiny battery that powers the thermostat in places where there is no "C" wire between furnace and thermostat. I can assure you that this battery is not providing 100-200 watts! Likewise, most other thermostats have battery power (two AAA cells) as backups. It takes very little power to keep a smart thermostat running.
Put away the original remote! Use the Honeywell thermo, put the fan on auto, to save more energy! Set the vanes on auto, you need the heat to blow towards the floor. You are creating you own problems. I have 3 of these units. There is a crankcase heater on all the time. About 50 watts. You need to try another power meter.
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I just put in a Fujitsu mini split and initially had the same concern. My energy monitor showed 190W even when the unit was off. My energy monitor doesn't measure voltage but only measures current, like yours. The issue is, without measuring voltage the energy monitor can't account for power factor and assumes everything is a power factor of 1.0. When I measured the power draw with a unit that takes into account power factor I get a draw of 5-6W.
Hmm very interesting, Thanks for the information! How do you measure it like that? My system measures the amp draw through the wires and converts it to watts so I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be accurate?
@@JeremiahMcintosh You need a power meter that measures power factor. Basically if your power meter isn't telling you the voltage for the circuit then it's just guessing on voltage and assuming power factor is 1.0. In order to calculate real power from an AC driven load the formula is voltage x current x power factor. My mini split shows a power factor of 0.02 when it's off. For my whole house monitor I use the Emporia energy system it doesn't consider power factor. I measured mine a few ways but for now I just took a smart plug that measures power factor and pulled the circuit board out and wired it in series. Emporia has put me on the list for the beta of their system that measures voltage and power factor so hopefully I can move to that in the future.
Ok gotcha👍 thanks for the info
If in winter it probably is just the base pan and or compressor heaters
It’s all the time tho!
The only power draw that you have when the unit is not working is the crankcase heater and the pan heater. In every mitsubishi unit equipped with a “cold climate kit” like the FH series the unit will send a constant voltage in the compressor winding to keep it warm to prevent damage from liquid refrigerant building up in the compressor.The pan heater will be energized at 36 degres F and below otherwise the pan heater only comes on during the defrost cycle.
Sorry Crank case heaters are for keeping the oil in the system warm at all times . If you have liquid in the compressor which is a scroll compressor 90 percent of the time it’s not going to work period . Compressors only pump vapor .
I install a lot of the Mitsubishi and Fujitsu equipment. Keep in mind these are variable capacity VRF systems so you will not get a report from honeywell based on ON/OFF run time since it doesn't turn on/off like a conventional system. When you turn the system off with the remote, the compressor and all functions shut down, but because a heat pump uses a compressor, which contains a mixture of oil and refrigerant, a small amount of power is constantly consumed to keep the compressor warm which prevents the unit from trying to compress liquid refrigerant and oil when it is turned on. When the unit is running this standby compressor heating current is not used since you are compressing and moving the refrigerant. Bottom line is the continuous power usage when off is to prevent compressor damage. Also check power factor because it is not a resistive load it is inductive. At such a low current the power factor correction circuitry does not function properly and current measuring equipment that does not properly measure power factor will give you false high readings. The compressor windings are powered to provide heat using a combination of PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) and PAM (Pulse Amplitude Modulation) from the 325 V to 350 V DC (Direct Current) bus through the DC IPM (Digitally Comutated Inverter power module).
They must have given you the discount price because of all the other equipment you had them install. I usually install the Mitsubishi FH18 models for $5000 if it is just through the wall and down to the outdoor unit mounted on a stand. If I have to mount the indoor unit on interior walls or install condensate pumps, extra line hide etc then the price goes goes up from there.
Thanks for all the great info, you sound very knowledgeable on this unit. Yes They did give me a discount on the unit and said it was normally $4,500-$5,000.
@@dynamicenergysolutions180 Is $9500 a good price for MXZ-3C24NAHZ2
with a 3 FH-Series heads 12BTU,9BTU,and 6BTU? I am going to have the unit on the 2nd floor
@@sahl212 I do not install multi zone systems because the efficiency amd performance is not as good as individual 1:1 systems. $9500 is a great price for the system you mention, but be sure the installer will stand behind you when you have problems with some rooms overheating or overcooling. Remember that 24,000 BTU compressor will not be able to provide the same variable capacity to a single operating head that a dedicated compressor per head will provide. The system will bleed refrigerant through the other zones to lower the capacity in the active zone. Also if you have a problem with the system all 3 zones will be down. Another reason why you want only 1:1 systems is only enough refrigerant to operate that zone. I am currently working on a 28 zone commercial VRF geothermal system with reheat (simultaneous heating and cooling), an expansion valve failed and blew out all 135 lbs of refrigerant into the boiler room. If someone had been in there when it blew they would have gone unconscious and died within a short time. I am in favor of keeping refrigerant volume to a minimum and the safest way to do that is with individual 1:1 zones. I only have two 12,000 btu FE series Mitsubishi's heating my 3,000 sq ft log home and average $.89 a day to keep the house 68 and lower all summer and 72 + all winter. Keep in mind a 12,000 btu Mitsubishi or Fujitsu single zone will provide about 20,000 + BTU of heat! Multi zone systems also use vapor injection on the compressor that gives you more heat at lower temperatures but the efficiency drops considerably. Single zone systems do not typically use vapor injection at low temperatures, they just use a higher capacity compressor.
@@dynamicenergysolutions180 Thank you so much for the information! I am going to get a 12 year warranty on parts. Unfortunately, the labor is just one year. I know 1:1 efficiency is way better but it is also not realistic for me to have three outdoors units and the cost to install these units will be more expensive. I am probably going to run the 12BUT most of the time alone. When I run the 9BTU and 6 BTU, I am probably going to run them together. Again thank you for the information
I checked my Mitsubishi MUZ-FE12NA 12,000 btu Hyper Heat mini split that we installed in 2012 and it uses .06- .07 amp/17.5 watts when turned off. When just the indoor fan is running it uses .08 amp/20 watts. I used a UEI DL379B clamp meter. What you are finding is not normal at all. I would highly recommend that you contact the installer and get them to verify that it is indeed drawing high watts when not in use and let them figure it out. Then you can report back to us and tell us how that went.
I just put the same system in, I'll check the amp draw to see what it is. But this sounds reasonable. You need to remember, the system has electronics that need to be powered up 24/7. Also, the outdoor unit has (or should) a pan heater, I think that runs 24/7 when the outdoor temp gets below "x". Get rid of the hand remote, they're shit and the return air temp sensor is not accurate at all. When you run with the remote the system will run longer because it will vary the fan speed depending on demand forcing longer run times. Use the wall mounted thermostat and set a fan speed. Plus with the thermostat you have you can program the fan to shut off when the thermostat is not calling.
Thank you for the tips.
I have 4 outdoor units all are Mitsubishi Hyper Heats and 1 LG RED, ALL have base pan heaters, the mitsubishis turn on during defrost cycle AND at 36 degrees outdoor temp LG is similar but dont know the exact temps... ADD that all up and i was pulling about 650 watts. So i disabled all my base pan heaters.. problem solved. BUT i did install my units myself and have all of them 20 inches off the ground. Its been 3 years and NO ISSUES it has been fine. no issues with the little ice that builds up on the coils at the base of the unit.. I did the same thing, the return air sensors are garbage, they are accurate but you need them in the living space so i did the KUMO CLOUD with the remote wireless sensors.. FANTASTIC. I grouped all the units together in the ALEXA app so all i do is say "Alexa, warm up (or cool down) the house" all zones come on at a predetermined setpoint..What great technology. pair that with the 50 solar panels on the house, I feel im doing my part for the environment.
You’ve gotten your answer a few times now. It’s your method of measurement. Your meter is assuming 240v to calculate watts when it may only really be using 24v depending on the controls in the outdoor unit. Do you homework and study the wiring diagrams and take your own current and voltage readings at the outdoor unit.
Best guess.
It’s pulling an amp for the crankcase heat.
1amp x 240 volts is 240 watts. So a little less is 200+ watts an hour.
I had electric baseboards, my average bill l was $700 to $1400 a month depending on if inturned all of them on. I installed 3 fujitsu low ambient temp units, (2) 9kbtu and an 18k btu. Ran it 24/7 on maximum. My bill dropped to $178.00 on average and heated my home. Average temp in my house is 78°f. Upstate new york Love these units
Wow those baseboards were really sucking down the energy! Thanks for the info I really appreciate it! Mine is an 18k btu and happy overall but the phantom power draw is still driving me crazy!
A Font Thanks for your comment! Do you know which model the Fujitsu you purchased? Is it the RLF series by chance? I’m purchasing a unit next week and can’t decide between the Mitsubishi Hyper heat FH model or the RFL Fujitsu. Wonder which is better or more energy efficient for northern climates. I’m also looking to cut down my baseboard costs!
@@djstormz9522 i purchased the outdoor Fuaou36Rlxfzh $2806 and indoor (2)Fuasu9rlf1 $867 and (1) Fuasu18Rlf $734. Good luck, you can't go wrong with fujitsu or Mitsubishi
@@djstormz9522 Mitsubishi is the way to go! Myself and other contractors I have talked to love them! They tell me they have almost no trouble with them including me and my customers. As far as which is more efficient, it depends which model you are comparing. Overall across the whole line, Mitsubishi probably has higher efficiency. Email daniel@loweryourheatingbill.com for more info.
WELL DONE, I put in 4 units 6 zones, 3 hyper hears and an LG red, what a difference. I love them. my favorite home improvement project BYFAR. (installed myself) electrician by trade.
Likely crankcase and pan heater. Hyper-heat systems come with these enabled as part of the cold weather package typically. In general a Hyper heat will run a larger power draw due to more compressor amp draw as well.
Concur on sump and crankcase heater...all heat pumps draw power at certain temps nature of the game... if I paid for that's system it would be running its arse off not sitting as a supplement. Give that man some copper pennies I need some wire sound like he can make 18 gauge out of them.
I understand but I’m my opinion the crankcase heater should not be on drawing power when it’s 90°+ outside.
@@JeremiahMcintosh watching the video your wearing a jacket and no leaves on trees so based video and date of video led one to believe your explaining a winter scenario.
@@JeremiahMcintosh get your service tech to use amp meter to find source of power draw. Have him dig out service manual follow check of defrost heater make sure to get ohm readings on RT61 62 64 65 and look at the temperature resistance chart. I have limited experience on Hyper but have on other M series and all my customers state they hardly notice the unit. Hope your service tech can give you some insight, best of luck.
Thank you.
That power drawing show in your app is because the energy monitoring system you're using doesn't take voltaje to have a more accurate measure in watts and the other reason is the power supply in that split unit use low voltaje to make all the electronics to work, so is drawing amp but at more low voltage but your monitoring app only takes amp and make the assumption of the voltage, hope this help
Hmmm 🤔 very interesting and thanks for the help. I will definitely have to check into that! Wouldn’t I still be getting charged for the current it is drawing which is amps?
@@JeremiahMcintosh No because your utility meter is much more advance and also more sensitive and is capable to identify voltaje at all time, it does not just take the amps. The same happened to me I have an all house energy monitory system and it showed me a ghost drawing on my pool pump but when I compare redding against my utility meter, the meter only count the right amount
Just turn off the breaker when you don't need it. It saves a lot of money compared to other heating systems.They all have phantom power draw.
That does seem very high. I have Fujitsu with pan heaters and they do draw maybe 100w when the pan heater is running. I have an emporia vue energy monitor and only have a clamp on one leg and let the app apply a 2x multiplier. If you have two clamps make sure that your app is not doubling your wattage calculations.
ITS VERY POSSIBLE THAT THE COMPRESSOR IS RUNNING AT LOW RPM TO REDUCES AMPS AT START UP I BELIEVE THERE SOME INVERTER SYSTEM THAT OPERATE THAT WAY
My 24 k unit did my whole 1200 sq foot space, cheaper than gas a or oil.
What temperature did you set it to ?
you could have used a smaller 18k unit
Phantom Load is not really phantom. Your current draw is coming from the base pan heater. The base pan heater stays energized in the circuit to keep oil from slugging in extreme cold climates. This machine is made for wait for it... extreme cold climates. That being said, application and operation is the cause of the draw. Keep in mind this H2i unit is not intent for most applications. All standard Mitsubishi models without the pan heater will not have this issue.
Why would they Make the pan heater stay on even in the summer when using air conditioning? Why would they not put the pan heater on a thermostat like some other models?
Jeremiah Mcintosh some clients choose to run ac during the winter. Think restaurants, bars, businesses, etc. To cover the broad spectrum of installs, they decided to power the pan heater when the unit is energized. This way, if someone turns the ac on in the winter, it doesn’t destroy the compressor. Hope that helps
Thanks for the info. I think an easier More cost effective energy efficient solution would’ve been to install an outdoor temperature sensor and have the heater kick on below a certain temperature regardless of what mode you are in.
I was going to ask if it had a pan heater. It looks like they are optional. I am working on ordering a system today. I will be happy if it heats when it is 20 out side. I plan on keeping the electric heat set 5 degrees colder than the heat pump.
It shouldn't stay on over x temperature. If I only would rember what that is. Anyway there is a temperature sensor on the outside unit thats used to controll it. But I wouldn't trust your measuring equipment. Use a real fluke meter.
Also it takes some time for the pump to go in to sleep mode.
Btw, a Samsung heating pump for 5 years now as main heating and cooling. Got zero complaints At worst it draws 14kwh a day in ~ -15F. Even if it would crap out today the savings have been enormous. It was around 2200$ installed. After the geothermal heating this is the next best thing. Just the cost of installing a geothermal system om a old house is just to high to justify it.
I've been looking for the past 2 hours to find someone demonstrating using the remote control. And virtually 100% of the online searches for a demonstration of the remote control for a Mitsubishi heat pump end up with explaining how heat pumps work and never talk about the remote so I'm really glad that you touched upon the remote control in your video. Really good info... Yipes the vampire loads were greater than i imagined. I noticed during a power outrage my heat pump lights stayed on for several hours though it wasn't running until we regained power. is that to maintain it's programming?
Ben Brown - I found this link that explains the Mitsubishi remote control in detail. I was disappointed to see here that the remote control can't be used as the room temp sensor - the room temp is read at the point that the wall unit is mounted. Daikin and others have options to use the remote, so a user can bring the remote to a far corner of the room to ensure that the heat stays on until that far corner is at the set point.
Link - th-cam.com/video/-tVcsdI34yo/w-d-xo.html
We installed heat pumps in our house for heating purposes(primarily). We did run these units for a month to heat the house. Our electric bill is skyrocketing after installing these units. We got a $650 bill for the month of November(Consumed 2200Kwh while our average consumption is around 500 Kwh). We installed two outdoor hyper heat units(30K BTU each) and six indoor inverters. Total installation cost was $20,000. Our yearly solar credits are used in just one month by these units. We switch back to our natural gas heat. Now two costly paper weights are sitting at the back of my house and doing nothing.
We called Mitsubishi and they sent engineers to find some potential issues in the units and they did not find anything unusual.
So, now these units are not of any of my use after spending $20,000.
Installer never told us that these units are electric guzzler and the operation and maintenance cost is too high for these units.
Spent $23000 for 5 heads and my electric bill went from $220 to $539. We have only been using 3, 9K units. We were able to heat with oil at a much cheaper cost. This sucks! Wasted money, I could have bought the best and most efficient oil boiler made for less and spent 1/3 in cost to heat my home.
Thank you for sharing that. I can't imagine how bummed I would be! I have been watching tons of heat pump vids for weeks, installs, been planning on getting one, but just this evening started researching real life costs of electricity bill. I am surprised this high cost is not in way more vids. You should make a vid to tell it to others. My old oil furnace doesn't sound so bad now after reading your experience. Thank you
Syed, I meant post/message above for you.
Cha-ka, thanks for sharing that! That does suck. I may try to fix my old oil furnace after all. Hmm. Thank you
What is your electric rate per kwh?
Jeremiah, this is a great post and review. Much appreciated! Very recently, I just added mini-splits throughout our home and removed all old attic ductwork, compressors, and air handlers. Long story. Perhaps you might be able to shed light on how to reduce the noice levels (~ 24dB) coming from the condensate pumps that the HVAC company "conveniently" (in my eyes) forgot to tell me about and how they are needed on interior wall units. The noise (every several minutes) is driving us CRAZY. Thanks.
I have a Heil ductless 22 Seer 11 HSPF in a 1200 SF basement. The unit is a 12,000 btu and it keeps all of the space a toasty 72 degrees without problems . It is also all open space. Sounds like you got a very good deal for both the systems. Mine was 4800 for just the one. Upstairs is done with a 2.5 ton Trane XL16i power bill for all electric home runs 200 bucks a month
In which state do you live and at what outside temperature are you able to achieve 72 degrees in the basement? I am considering such a system in Boston and I am told that on days with temperatures below zero degrees, these all electric systems fail to provide adequate heat.
I’m in Pennsylvania and have been really impressed with how well this puts out heat in cold weather but in my installation this is installed on the second story and The heat from the downstairs furnace I’m sure rises up and helps out a little bit.
This hyper heat system will heat down to pretty low temperatures but The colder it is the more electricity it uses and the more it cost but It seems to be pretty efficient.
Thanks for discussing the Honeywell Thermostat option for the Mitsubishi Heat pump. I am definitely interested in that option. We use the Honeywell thermostats for our boiler heating. We specifically choose those because we could see and control the room temperature via the internet. This lets us turn off the vacation mode and set the heating or cooling when we are away and on our way home. It makes some sense that the system will always be drawing some power. It is on even when its not actually doing the heat transfer because the electronics inside are on to measure and communicate. Then there is the issue of the electricity automatically used by the defrost pan.
just got a massive double 48,000 BTU Mitsubishi Hyper heat system installed in my home. 8 heads total. it's an old farm house that has a horrible and inefficient propane furnace system. because of the ineffective way the duct work was installed (3 out of the 4 bedrooms upstairs have no ductwork at all), i was paying $1000 a month in propane bills. I live in Upstate NY and the winters can be nasty.
I just had this system installed and now i have heat in every room. No doubt my electric bill will go up but my main goal is to make the biggest dent possible in that propane bill. plus i have the nice bonus of central AC which i've never had in my life.
it made sense to me because of the way the house is and the fact it's propane. If it was natural gas it may not have been worth it. Even if i cut the propane bill in half ($500/month) the system will pay for itself in 5 or so years.
I'm looking at doing a similar system. How did your electric bills turn out?
Hi, how did your electric bill turn out?
Explained exactly everything I was wondering, and appreciate the comments clearing up the power draw, thanks Jeremiah!
PIE. P=IxE. Or Power (watts) = Intensity (amps) x Energy (voltage). So your 115 watt system x 1.77 amps = 203.55 watts.
So whether on or off you have a device (maybe a thermostat) that draws 1.77ish amps.
Thanks. That’s what I’m thinking as well.
@@JeremiahMcintosh If it's 230v then your amp draw is halved.
Just hooked some Sense flex CT clamps to my Mitsubishis- a mini split hyper heat and a multi split hyper heat- and the phantom draw is around 5 to 6 Watts
Wow I wish mine was that low.
@@JeremiahMcintosh I've only had the energy monitoring hooked up to the Mitsubishis a few hours but it seems to fluctuate. Right now the living room unit is off but apparently using 65W.
@@JeremiahMcintosh if it gets cooler out , around 45° f or below, it'll regularly pull 65W for around a half hour then go back to around 5W over and over again even when off. If I know I won't be using it for awhile I've taken to turning the breaker off
Phantom draw unlike a thermostat on-off type that shuts everything off the thermostat in an inverter unit is telling the inverter how much to run the compressor and fans there is the phantom draw for a lot of things in inverter AC's the inverter has to stay on all the time, the thermostat to, and other electronics not to mention the compressor heater to keep the oil from becoming hard, let the oil get thick and it will kick off the overload when it starts up or you will have a COLD room.
I have the 2016 version of that same unit. I installed the RF wall controller & never use the handheld. I'm surprised they still use that same handheld IR remote. That's crude by today's standards. As you implied, given they are high end units, they should come with that RF wall controller included.
You really ought to understand better why these system do what they do and why. Your “phantom power draw” is the inverter board sending power to one of the compressor windings to keep the compressor shell warm. If the compressor gets to coil the refrigerant will all migrate to the compressor and cause it to fill with liquid. The oil inside the compressor will float on top of the liquid refrigerant. The discharge line for the compressor in your unit is on the top so if this thing starts up cold it will slug and push the refrigerant oil out of the compressor. This may not be apparent immediately but will shorten the life of the system from 25 years “ ideal install talent and maintenance over the years” down to 5-10 years. So my recommendation is to find a reputable company that knows Mitsubishi well and keep the system up. These are fantastic pieces of equipment and hardly anybody knows much about them so measurements of power consumption and heat with infrared gun is not teaching people anything about these units.
Easy buddy. Maybe try to educate and not reprimand.
Fair enough. But I’m right
Any heating and cooling system will draw power when even not in use. 1 it uses a sensor to monitor room temperature 2 most have a heater on the compressor or use the compressor windings to keep the oil warm and liquid refrigerant from migrating to the oil and washing oil off the bearings. Compressors can’t pump liquid refrigerant, it will destroy a compressor in short order.
Well how much did your electric go up a month, much easier to figure out out that way
Mine doubled. Wtf.
What was the total cost. I'm looking to get a 4 or 5 zone system so that I can cancel my gas service. I'm getting a rooftop solar system installed and don't want any gas.
If you watch till the end I talk about the cost and the mini split system alone was $4000 installed which was supposedly $1000 discount
@@JeremiahMcintosh THATS A GOOD PRICE.. REALLY. TO HAVE SOMEONE DO IT.
If you do the math price per btu gas comes out cheaper in the long run as least here in Vegas .
Did $4000 price include installing the 240v power disconnect?
Yes it did. But they told me that was at a discount and that it was normally $5000
I thought pan heater only kicks in durning defrost, then off delay for a bit after defrost making sure the water/ice is removed.
I installed the Gree mini split but I only look at the daily kWh the house is drawing. The energy used is minimal when consistent about .023 more or less and when it kicks on, it about .4 or less. I went with Gree because Mitsubishi was 3 times the cost over a Gree. Anyway, my daily usage is between 13 to 17 KWh a day.
Ill add to it.. ANYTIME its below 40 degrees F the base pan heater is energized.. and when it is in defrost cycle regardless of temperature i believe,
On Mitsubishi the pan heater ONLY comes on during defrost cycle which is a max of 10 min. And I would assume most other brands also.
@@danieloberholtzer4238 no that is wrong.. anytime below a certain outdoor temperature around freezing and below and the defrost cycle.
Thanks for the video, are you able to run routines in Smartthings with this thermostat? I am going to have a mini split unit installed soon and I am leaning words the Mitsubishi unit.
Thanks.
To be honest I haven’t really played around with the routines for heating. I jus t set it to the temp I want and leave it alone.
@@JeremiahMcintosh Ok, thank you.
so did you ever figgure out how much phantom power its drawing and if you over estimated the cost? my dad lives in MI and wants to install a Mitsubishi H2 system as well in an upstairs addition. Using three 9,000BTU heads for a total of 27,000 btu.
There is still phantom power draw but there has been some controversy over it in the other comments.
Overall I’ve been happy with the unit and it works great. The only problem I had was recently when temperatures went down to zero for 2 days straight it stopped working and threw a U4 error code which was "Error detail Outdoor thermistor short/open”. I was able to shut the unit down, turn it back on and it began working just fine and is still working. I’m actually surprised how much heat it puts out when it’s down to those temperatures for not having any back up heating element.
One thing I’ve noticed, though, which I think a lot of units are like this is that sometimes it blows cold air during the heat cycle because it reverses to keep things defrosted.
I installed 2 mitsubishi hyper heats and one lg red, 3 head unit....heres the issue with these units.. they all come with base pan heaters for EXTREME COLD climates with where you have 3 days in a row below freezing.. I actually disconnected my base pan heaters and installed a manual switch if i need them to operate... its a bit out of the box but i did it for the POWER SAVINGS...REPLY TO THIS IF YOU HAVE OTHER QUESTIONS.
Good idea.
Please make a video for this. I need to do it!
@@danidiamond you just have to find the harness that connects to the base pan heater and interrupt it with a switch.. some basic electrical skills are necessary
I’m quite sure the pan heater only comes on during defrost to stop the melted frost turning into ice in the drain pan which means a switch is unnecessary
Max D I tested this and that is not correct. On Mitsubishi’s The pan heaters are on ANYTIME below 36F. Which means if you have 2 separate units your drawing about 400 watts at Idle. I’m an electrician, and verified this myself with an AmpMeter.
2 annoyances with this model (installed an 18k btu HH model) is the crappy remote which has a weakest beep sound and horrible screen (try reading it from an angle, I can’t). Second annoyance, the damn thing overshoots the set temp. Ex. I set the cooling temp to 24C, it’ll cool down to 20 but the compressor never shuts off.
Have you noticed +300kWh/ month on your power bill? I have a suspicion that your measurement equipment may not be working right.
It’s really hard to tell but I have three of those monitoring systems and it seems that they have been pretty close to accurate. I have one on my main panel to monitor my whole house one on my garage panel for just my garage and one clamped just on the mini split.
It would be roughly 144kwh/month which is about $16 a month sitting idle based on my current rate.
Keep in mind though while it is actually running it is using that 200 W so it’s really only sitting idol probably half that time.
@@JeremiahMcintosh There has been discussing on sites related to the detection of inverter devices by whole house monitors and about half the comments see no detection or detection of one leg of the 220 supply only . Accuract is debatable in any case. Whole house systems match watts to one appliance and inverter devices draw variable wattage and cant build a history and algrithems and it appers that issue has not been resolved over at least six years.
Hyoer heat units comes with a heater pan to keep ice from forming and the thermostat may be malfunctioning. All mini split are basicly a computer with a little refrigerant built around it so 200 watts might be the electronics keepin warm!
I was searching for phantom drain after just installing a minisplit last week and seeing 300W when all are off. I'm using the same Aeon HEM v1, though the drain appears to agree with the main power to the house when switching the breaker on and off.
In our case, I have 3 zones, and a 36K BTU condenser and with all three running the blower with no cooling needed at night, it's the exact same 300W. I'm thinking this may be something with the meters and will test with something more accurate.
They have small meters for sale on places like ebay so you can do it via just one circuit. The amperage was close to my Testo meter. I have one on my dryer. You have to place it on the "dominate" hot leg that carriers both the motor and heater amperage.
Jeremiah, why don't you call Mitsubishi Electric and ask this question about standby power draw? They are very responsive and helpful. That way you can get your answer and you could share that with us rather than asking the viewers if we have any knowledge. You will get all kinds of opinions from us but none of it may be true.
Modulating furnace sounds good... basically the blower will have a low and higher setting?
The blower ramps up and down depending on the call for heat not just a low and high. It also ramps up and down the gas flow as needed.
Looking at adding this to my historic home. No ducts so this is the best option but will have 5 heads and 2 outdoor units so this is concerning. Curious if you have heard any more on the phantom power. Also curious if it does it in summer. Thanks for the video
Hey John no I have not figured this out yet but it drives me nuts. It does still use 200 W in the summertime when turned off. I’ve seen another person comment on my video that says they have two outdoor units and theirs uses 400 W double mine and he has the same set up as me with the added thermostat. If you decide to get this system please let us know here if yours is doing the same I’m still trying to pinpoint why.
I need to find out what mine are drawing... I have two 48k btu outdoor units and 10 indoor units... just imagine if the draw is 200 watts per indoor unit..
Jeremiah Mcintosh when you turn your thermostat off, do the doors close on your indoor unit and one of the lights go off? I have a hunch that shutting your thermostat off is not fully shutting down your indoor unit..
Yes Andre when I shut the thermostat off the vent doors do close completely but the unit is still using 200 W continuously. If you figure anything out with yours please comment and let us all know on here. I have a feeling it’s the outdoor unit drawing the power but I’m not 100% sure.
Looks like your not the only one. www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/question/mitsubishi-mini-split-phantom-draw. Will circle back when I can get a meter installed in my panel.
Having a similar problem, have you made any headway? I am wondering if it is related to the MHK1. Reason I say that is I am running about 390 watts, with 2 MHK1s. I have my breaker off most of the time, can’t justify spending almost $70/mnth on phantom load
No I have not figured it out yet but it drives me insane and I appreciate your comment because I have been wondering if other people have been having the same issue or if I was the only one.
Did you notice this issue before watching my video or have you known about it?.
How many outdoor units do you have two? I was actually wondering the same thing About having the MHK1 connected. Wonder what other people’s experiences are that do not have the MHK1 connected
Jeremiah Mcintosh base pan heater and expansion valve heater, don’t shut breaker off it still is a lot more efficient than a traditional system, ghost load on a normal split system is about the same I have seen. 40-45 degrees and up the load should reduce
Thanks Bajaheat I coul see that but even on a hot summer day it is still drawing 200 W constantly. Why would the base pan heater still be on at that point?
Hey Jeremiah, I have an update (kind of). I was able to spend some time and took the covers off my branch box and condenser, and looked around with my IR camera. No waste heat anywhere to be found. Pan heater was the outdoor temp. I’m working with a guy at Mitsubishi now, will let you know what he comes up with
Awesome Brian thanks for the update! I can’t wait to see what you come up with!
My Mitsubishi Hyper Heat H2i 6000 BTU, seems to be running all the time. Its super-cold and keeps the room amazingly cold and comfortable, but it never seems to turn off. Even when the condenser fan is off outside it still blows air in the room. Is this normal?
Yes, they are supposed to move the air around so you keep an even temperature in the room. If it causes you to feel too cold the that’s good because, you can raise your temp and save some money. They work so much better than any other type of AC
What device did you use to measure watts usage?
Aeon labs home energy meter but you need a smart home hub for it to work. I use SmartThings.
I had similar hyper heat systems installed in June. Just testing out heating tonight and noticing that the system blows out warm air for a couple minutes at high fan speed which i have it set at and then stops and repositions the blades horizontal. It cycles through this many times. Is this normal function? Its 59 degrees out now, controller set to 72, fan speed high, vanes pointing to the floor when heating. Manual says its low air temp or defrost. Hard to believe its defrosting so often with 59 degree outside temps.
Assumed its installed properly, this is normal. Once the temperature indoor room temperature is few degree closed to the controller temperature, the the air handle blow some heat on and off a little to maintain the temperature. However, if you want to raise/lower the room temperature immediately, just set the themostat all the way up or down for 15 minutes or so, and then dial back to normal temperature. Fujitsu has a turbo mode will provide over 100% rate btu to help cool/heat the room for 10 min and then automatically return to normal mode. Mitsubishi hyper should have the similar feature. At 59 degree outside, the defrost mode won't occur. You can confirm if the unit is on defrost mode by hand touching the indoor air handler coil, if its ice cold, then its in defrost mode in the winter. The defrost mode usually come up close to 32F and become little more frequent when its below 0.
@@haochen6247 thanks for the reply and confirming things are operating normally.
How much does it cost to install?
How much does it cost to install
Don’t these systems constantly circulate some air, to monitor air temperature, even when not heating/cooling?
I know right? Like a window a/c unit.
@@danram247 Yes. Its how the unit gets information inorder to ramp up or down to deliver just enough heat or ac. Be aware, several whole house monitors have been found deficient in accurate discovery and recording of inverter devices. User groups have discussed this issue and mini splits and inverter microwave ovens are singled out.
I just installed a pioneer mini split. A big one. I’ve had it cranked high heat at 84. And my energy usage for the month is double. Seems like my unit is using a ton of energy. Doing something wrong ?
The higher the setpoint and the lower the temperature the more energy it’s going to use. Even with the power drawl mine is still pretty efficient but I never have mine turned up to that High of a temperature!
@@JeremiahMcintosh hear ya tx
they dont throw out all that much heat.
Hmm my Mitsubishi produces pretty good heat unless the temps are way down around zero then it still produces heat just not as much.
@@JeremiahMcintosh these things r a luxury. for real heat I think a pellet or wood burner is much better
@@JeremiahMcintosh hear ya, my house and downstairs is big.. these r ok for 1 or 2 rooms.
I have installed few dozens of these mini split primarily Fujitsu and few Haiers brand few years ago. I know that the inverter unit does have some phantom power draw but the Haier unit which is non-inverter drive, it didn't really draw much when its off, I recall using Kilowatt meter. My old house which I no longer live have a aou12rls3 unit which I measure it has about 20 watt draw for being idle. In my current house, I have one aou24rlxfz and aou18rlxfz with 5 indoor unit setup. Today, I was curious to see how much power the house is drawing with just the whole house light on and off roughly using clamp meter and I just happened to notice that the two Fujitsu unit on the double pole breaker drawing 1.44 amp while all 5 indoors units off on summer day with 75F outdoor. Without considering the power factor assuming the clamp meter is fairly accurate, this 1.44x240v=345Watt, this is a lot of Phantom power draw that I just realize. Power factor may play some role in the total wattage draw but can't be much as am pretty confident on the clamp meter; the amount of amp draw testing using the number of light bulbs, I believe the clamp meter is fairly accurate. Based on what I am reading so far, this phantom power draw seem to be very pervasive for any inverter drive mini split. May be next week, I will find a day or two to pull the breaker and just to see how much the utility meter measure for 24 hour of the power draw vs a day with similar house load but AC off with breaker on.
Let me get this straight....you have about 800 square feet, the average temperature for the last 30 days or so has been around 32 degrees and your bill was 33 dollars and you think you have a problem....I’ll be happy to swap electric bills with you....!
Regardless of what temperature it is outside if the unit is sitting idle with the thermostat off but the breaker on it uses about 144 kWh per month and that is about $18 of electricity. Again this is with the thermostat in the off position and the breaker on.
@@JeremiahMcintosh Have you check the outdoor unit to see it the base is warm? also if you change the mode to cold during the winter, will this stop the Phantom power draw?
Soon I will be installing a new Mitsubishi 36,000 Btu four head unit at my 1100 square foot condo at the beach ( Sea Isle New Jersey ). Should I pay the extra cost for the Hyper heat or just go with a regular heat pump? Currently we use it a few times in the winter, but that electric baseboard heat is expensive.
We love our hyper heat system it heats even in very low temperatures. The lower the temperature though the more energy uses but still worth it in my opinion. How much extra is it for the hyper heat?
phantom power draw
that is not a base pan heater.
that is some thing called “cranky case heater” which is some heating strip wrapped on the compressor. that is usually appear on the bigger systems and multi zone systems.
that is used to heat the compressor crank case. compressor have oil inside and foreon will solve to it , that makes oil con not protect compressor. and When heated , that foreon will be evaprated , which garrents oil good.
that crank case heater will run When compressor is not running and colder than about 160degrees.
also , any heatpump that can heat in cold climate will have basepan heater , and it will run under freezing temperature regard less if that heat pump is useing.
to avoid this , just pull the disconnect in the seasons that you don't need to use heatpump.
Not all low temp mini split heat pumps have a basepan heater. Some brands have it optional including Mitsubishi. And very few have a crankcase heater.
We recently installed a York air source heat pump to replace a gas furnace and it too draws quite a bit of standby power, about 80 Watts in our case. Not a lot but still, seems like there's no good reason for it to be that much. I hear Tesla is considering going into heat pumps and perhaps they'll do a better job designing their products than the incumbents.
I Called the the customer service and they gave me this information for the system I am about to install mxz-3c24nahz2 with 3 heads. I can see a big difference in wattage consumption when the temp drop to 17F. Heating at 47F will use 1725W and 3557W at 17F. I tried to post the information but I am not allowed to post pic on the comment
Thanks for the info that seems Correct the colder it gets the more it costs to produce heat. It works like a heat pump.
@@JeremiahMcintosh so basically once the temp drop bellow 36F, the base pan start heating regardless if the unit is ON or OFF.
I’m not sure if it’s the base pan drawing the current but it draws 200w regulardless of the temperature. Summer time is the same way even when the unit is off.
@@JeremiahMcintosh They are going to install my unit on Monday and If i have the same problem I will install this
www.amazon.com/Migro-Outdoor-Resistive-Wireless-Compatible/dp/B07WC2BT85/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Migro+Outdoor+Smart+Wi-Fi+Outlet+Box%2C+Heavy+Duty+50A+Resistive+240VAC&qid=1605127614&s=industrial&sr=1-1
@@sahl212 be careful. The wattage drawn is used to warm up the condenser oil. If you cut off power, it will be like running your car without oil.
Jeremiah, I would like to make correction to the comment that I made earlier, just few comments below. Last week, my local utility company came to our neighbor and replace the old meter with the new Smart Digital meter. The weather is cool this week so I decided to conduct a simple test to confirm if this phantom power draw is really a problem or not. I shutoff the main breaker to the two outdoor Fujitsu units (18k to 2 indoor and 24k to 3 indoor). The new meter reading was shown as 73 KW mark on midnight of Monday. After 24 hours, on the midnight of Tuesday, the meter reading was shown 86KW. I turned on the main breaker to the two outdoor units, and on midnight of Wednesday, the meter reading was shown as 99KW. For the 48 hour period, the power usage in the house remain the same 13KW per 24 hour period with and without two Fujitsu units. I know I average around 10-11KW a day without running AC based on the calculation I had done in the past two years. Since I am working from home and two kids on remote school, 2-3 extra KW pull by three desktops and recently add small fridge which make sense that I am using 13KW average a day in the past two days. What this simple testing is telling me is that this phantom power draw is very negligible and the way we calculate the power usage by the current reading of clamp meter is not an accurate way for AC. I hope this easy the mind of everyone who is concerned about phantom power draw of mini split. The mini split is awesome when they installed and work right. They can be very difficult and costly to fix if electronic board or sensor break. A new unit will cost less than replacing a main circuit board or compressor. My very first Haier brand mini split that I installed at my father's house still running well after 12 years.
Have you actually put a multimeter on the lines to read real time phantom draw? I imagine there is always power to the head since its remote controlled, but the voltage used may translate to a different wattage drawn than what you app reports at the box.
My smart meter is clamped directly on the 2 positive wires coming from the breaker that is supplying the mini split and it measures the amps directly from those wires.
@@JeremiahMcintosh What do you mean by 2 positive wires? The supply is AC so there's no positive and negative. It is Line and Neutral or on 220V, a Line1 and Line2. Current should be the same on both wires. That's why when you measure current, you put the ammeter in series with the load. You can use multimeter with clamp that can measure current. Just clamp it on one of the wires. Mutiply the result by the operating voltage and you get the power.
Yes it is 220 so what I meant by 2 positives was both lines 1 & 2
I got a new Fujitsu Halcyon 3 tons central unit and it pull 1.5 amps on 240 that give 360w at OFF. There is a heater of 28w that is not working. Very disappointed about that but the machine is very quiet in heating.
The contractor is coming tomorrow to look what is pulling it.
Please keep me posted and read the pinned comment. See if your contractor could test the system more accurately because Mitsubishi is telling me my test was wrong?
@@JeremiahMcintosh
Hi !
We found that is the noise filter board that is filtering the line. We measured 1,4 amp before this board and 0.1 after.
The contractor send this info to Fujitsu.
Waiting for reply !
Honestly, I don’t have big hopes that is going to change !
But will see !
Thanks for the update
I have a MrCool Mini-split that has WiFi and allows me to completely control the unit remotely. It also has a follow me mode on the included remote which allows the unit to adjust the temperature based on where the remote is located.
1500 watts of ac would give you only 5200 but of heat using reg electric heat power when off is base pan heat. Not used with newer units. No phantom power. with my Fujitsu 24 k unit
14,500, you did really good... did you get any rebates for the mitsubishi??? I would have guessed you should.. I installed 3 hyper heat units at my house, but because i did all the work I could not get the utility company to agree with me that the rebates are still valid. so i lost on that but I have 6 seperate zones, 4 outdoor units, all with smarthome control I think im at just about $12,000 all in with electrical (electrician by trade) and paying a guy to do the startups..
Man that sucks you couldn’t take advantage of any rebates. At the time I did get a little bit of rebates I believe for the furnace and ac unit. If I can remember right possibly the mini split as well. With the price of everything going up I would hate to see what it cost now!
Did you ever figure out what the issue was?
No I have quit looking into it but I’ve been using it daily and has been working well.
If you dont run pan heater in cold climate you will build up ice and compressor crankcase heat keeps oil from getting too thick on cold nights. My question is did your contractor do ACCA calculations ie Manual J calculations for heat gain and loss? Oversizing even in VRF systems its bad due to demand being lower then turn down of unit. But even with that 200watt calrod pan heater your compressor cop makes up for the amount of energy. I agree with second option of two heads two 12k heads on a 2zone 1.5 ton system. You can have up to 125% with overdrive vfd compressors in most minis.
I think you power consumption meter is assuming a perfect power factor. As in the unit is pulling power accross the entire sin-wave. When the unit is in standby i bet the power factor drops significantly, meaning its not really pulling 200w.
Great review! did you ever figure out the fathom draw?
No I have not. There are a few good suggestions in the comments but I’ve learned to just live with it.
@@JeremiahMcintosh Thanks for the reply! Do you think maybe all brands do that? Seem's so odd.
I’m not really sure to be honest.
also , mitsubishi dont sell “thermostat” anywhere else than north American.
Did you install this?
No I had a heating company install this as well as my modulating gas furnace and 2 ac units.
Everything has vampire power draw, hair dryers, microwaves, etc. unless you unplug from electric source. This is nothing new and I wouldn't depend on the installer for info call Mitsubishi directly with your concerns or have someone who knows what they are doing perhaps an electrician? Hope this works out for you
14 k , that sounds like a price for central heat and air not mini splits
The mini split alone was $4000 installed
Being HVACR for 35 years, this is a service tech's nightmare! Need patience. Mitsubishi is one of the top-priced, but if you don't know how they work & how to work on them, they are a nightmare. The wall mounted ones like this are easier than the ceiling units. Need to make sure they are clean (coil & filter) and that's pretty much all you can do. Also the outside coil. God help you if you have to dig into these to change a bad sensor or circuit board. They pack 2 gallons of parts into a one quart bucket.
So did you ever determine that your power factor was off? I just had a Lennox mini-split heat pump installed with three heads. I already had the Aeon Energy Monitor as well as an Efergy energy monitor on my main and sub-panels and noticed 280 watts of continuous usage with everything off but the breaker on. Reading through all of these comments, I am not sure. It is a 240v circuit, and these devices measure amps, but how could it be anything other than 240v? When I am charging my electric car both my car and energy monitors show the same thing. I am going to try and do a couple of tests overnight using my house's electric meter and one night with the breaker on and one night with the breaker off and see if there is a difference. I may also have an RMS clamp meter and will see what that shows. I have ordered a device that will measure the volts and amps and is supposed to be a true power meter and will see what it shows as well.
No I have not. Please let me know what you find out!
Les - I hope you were able to successfully complete the electric-meter test, as that's the one that's going to determine your electric billing.
@@WakeUpAmerican000s Yes, my measurements by all of my different methods all show just under 300watts, maybe close to 280. So when I am not using it I just shut off the breaker which is easy to do for me. I also tested my friend's Mitsubishi, which he uses pretty much year round for either cooling or heating, and it was similar.
@@lesnedbalek945 - wow. Thank you. I am taking Mitsubishi off of my short list for a split system. Not gonna pay for such a high constant power drain.
@@WakeUpAmerican000s Mine is a Lennox, and my friend's Mitsubishi. The installers offered to cut a wire that goes to the heater since I wasn't really going to use it in the winter, but I opted not to do that. I talked to the engineers at Lennox who verified it, and acted like it was not a big deal. ?!
You should have went with the KUMO cloud... I did and im VERY happy with it.. I do love nice High Tech Thermostats but for this purpose the Kumo Cloud system works amazing..
I read the reviews in the app store... it was pretty bad... how long have you been using Kumo cloud? Do you have more than one unit? I want to have mini split systems in my whole house.
@@SoCalVipers Ive been using it for 2 years.. very flexible, with schedules and temperature setpoints in the schedules.. its better and WAY cheaper than redlink or the adapter with smart thermostats.. I have the wireless remote temp sensor which is way better for room comfort.. the battery is still good after 2 years. I love the kumo cloud.. it is a little archaic compared to say a nest but it works just fine. Im a huge techy and Im satisfied .
What is the model number of the unit you installed? Your monthly operational expense is really good considering that your heating an 800 square foot space. The contractor that said you need 2 units in the attic was the one offering you the most comfort in design. The velocity of the "throw" is rated at 17 feet. The temperature output should be closer to 109 degrees output if the unit is fully up to temperature. The 95 degrees you are describing is not ideal.
The MKH1 tstat you have wastes some power and affects the efficiency of your unit. What you really need to do is call the engineering department at Mitusbishi to assist and educate you on the product. Your installer should have also provided you with the systems AHRI certificate and be able to provide you the official literature of its operational cost per year based on your local kilowatts per year. If you want to save money ditch the MHK1. In all fairness to a quality product like this work with the manufacture before posting a hasty review :).
You are telling this guy not to review a product until he works with the manufacturer?????? do you realize what you are saying? The guy has a concern about the unit pulling load when its not providing heat, I had the same concern, I pulled the plug on the base pan heaters, How does a thermostat affect the units efficiency rating????????? the outdoor unit controls the basepan heater, below 36 degrees F or in defrost too i believe. The unit is either calling or its not.. and it modulates accordingly.. please inform me how this stat affects the efficiency, looking forward to learning something new, i did KUMO cloud with the wireless sensors, those are great.,
Pjf inexperience guestimator? I'm sorry I'm not as polished As You Are. And I didn't get to see the guys build .so I don't know what he has for insulation and I don't know what size his roof Rafters are either. I have a 3rd floor apartment that is 750 square ft with spray foam and good windows and my Fujitsu low heat 15000 BTU hardly ever kicks on. Before I had the Fujitsu I had a little tiny window unit and it rocked the whole upstairs awesomely. I'm sorry I shouldn't have said anything I'll just mind my business next time thank you. Oh and on another note I had a 1500 watt space heater heating the third floor to 62° with spray foam in the house. I think that relates to like 5000 BTUs okay
Lmao
my 1200btu mini split run of a pure sine wave inverter 4000w on heat o watt on heat then come on start 1050watt goes up 10watt ever ten sec up to 1480 watt if low out side 40 watt goes to1800 watt off down to 40 watt for 3min then off. 0 watt off my inverter . yes my inverter used 15 watts when mini split is off its all on batt . fed on 8 400watt 50v
not a bad price for all you got
Almost everything does the same thing, microwave, digital toaster, anything with a led light, digital display, go back to old school thermostat, just for kicks and check power draw
I don’t understand,you set fan is always on, so that was taking power
When you turn the unit off at the thermostat it still draws 200 watts even in the summer months.
@@JeremiahMcintosh hmmm,, does indoor unit has wifi conections somehow hooked up so it searches, or it communicating with outdoor unit constantly, ,,
I’m not sure but that still doesn’t explain the 200w draw even when the unit is completely turned off at the thermostat.
@@JeremiahMcintosh why not to contact Mitsubishi local representitive, or call direct, my feeling tells me communication between outdoor and indoor is constant ,,,, would like to know if ever, , good luck
Nothing Phantom about it ...The outdoor unit since it is a hyper heat has a base pan heater and a trickle heat circuit to keep the compressor warm plus the power to run the control board. The indoor fan is also running all the time so some power there too. Of course when the power is off you have 0 watts. Plus you got a 10 year warranty on the unit. check it in the summer time.
It draws the same 200+ in the summer and also when the unit is turned off.
I think yor cost was very good.
If you have an average home (1500 sft to 4500 sft), and live in the frigid north of the US or Canada, then Mitsubishi HyperHeat Multi-Zone is the most inefficient system for you. You are better off installing a Mr Cool Single Zone of Multi-Zone, because Mitsubishi multizone will short cycle frequently (going to ZERO to peak - shutting down and starting up), resulting in energy consumption of over 3000Kwh. Other companies have designed the systems to modulate but not Mitsubishi.
What is the seer rating..?? In addition, 20,000 BTUs in that size attic (attic being the operative word), with those large windows, coupled with all that humidity is too low.. Two tons (24000 BTU's or more) would be a minimum.
It is 21 seer and 18k btu cooling and 20,300 BTU heating. I haven’t had any issues at all with Heating yet
I think tour wrong. You can't guesstimate 800 sq ft you don't know what insulation type he has on the ceiling the walls you don't know what kind of Windows he has. How do you know he hasn't had a manual J load
@@MrSprintcat Due to your inexperience, you, are the "guesstimator here. I was a builder of second story additions, after removing the roof on one story homes, for more than 25 years and know the construction of the house better than you.. Insulated windows are considered holes in the walls no matter how good the R rating, which determines how big the hole is. 2x4 walls and 2x6 or 2x8 rafters can only hold so much insulation and compressing insulation has a negative effect on it's ability to insulate. Has he added some type of foam board insulation to the inside studs? It's the fact that the attic is the hottest place in the house because of the roof above. There is no ceiling or floor above it to shield it from full sun exposure.. In addition, I'll gamble there is no insulation in the rafters beyond the knee walls in the storage areas.. Also, the humidity is a giant factor.. That 18K a/c is committing suicide...
On all the flat spots on the ceiling I used R 50 insulation,on the angle coming down and the knee walls I used R38 and on all the side walls that are vertical in the dormers and 2 end 2x6 walls I used R 21. Also the windows have dual low E coating on them to help block out the solar heat gain.
@@JeremiahMcintosh The "angles" are the roof rafters... Are they 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 or 2x12, because cramming R38 (12" insulation), into anything less than a 2x12, with covering on both sides (sheet-rock and sheathing) is counter productive and lessens the R value and transfer of interior moisture... ..??
After reading a bunch of the comments, (along with repeated misunderstanding of the root cause) the best thing for everyone concerned might be to DELETE and redo this one. I'm sorry and I know making videos are a lot of work, and I DID learn something by reading these comments. Your description STILL says "I discuss ....and the power draw when the thermostat is off! " I'm soo close to giving this a thumbs down.
lol no one cares
Put a fluke on the actual unit itself
im not a huge fan of those mini splits, although mitsubishi is by far the best you can get, i dont like fujitsu
You don't know this I'm sure but those units and basically any well-designed heat pump has a compressor heater that is engaged when the unit stops running to stop the flow of liquid ref. Back to the compressor but you are the TH-cam (expert) so keep complaining about things you don't even understand
No expert but why does it continue to run using 200w on 100° days when the unit is off at the thermostat?
Nddd Bjss - Expert or no, I would never install a unit that draws 200 watts of power 24/7. That's not the way to save money on utility bills. If Mitsubishi units are doing this, it is an important data point for users to have so that they can shop around for more efficient solutions.
A wireless thermostat will draw 100-200 watts 24/7
That’s crazy!
ZZZRSC - A Google Nest has a tiny battery that powers the thermostat in places where there is no "C" wire between furnace and thermostat. I can assure you that this battery is not providing 100-200 watts! Likewise, most other thermostats have battery power (two AAA cells) as backups. It takes very little power to keep a smart thermostat running.
It's your pan heater.
Put away the original remote! Use the Honeywell thermo, put the fan on auto, to save more energy! Set the vanes on auto, you need the heat to blow towards the floor. You are creating you own problems. I have 3 of these units. There is a crankcase heater on all the time. About 50 watts. You need to try another power meter.
That is a waste of money for the crankcase heater to be on in mid summer when it is 90°+ out!
Jeremiah Mcintosh you can turn off on the main board on outdoor unit.
@@JeremiahMcintosh I am about to install one at my house. are you sure the heat pan is running during the summer?
Lol, "what the heck is that?" Reminds me of Hide'n Biden.