"That's dumb."-Hugo Mercer... Probably. Seriously though people are not that stupid. And Hugo Mercer's book Not Born Yesterday makes the argument that people really aren't influenced by stories that much.
Honestly it's so refreshing to see ideas about making the world a better place coming back into fashion. Everyone, even those on the political left, have been too focused on what they fear and what they want to stop.
As a Dutch person that has read the book. I can really recommend it to get a new perspective on te human nature. The book also helps to understand why people behave badly.
I loved it! Especially the alternative analysis of the Stanford prison experiment and the Milgram shock machine provide historical context that seem crucial since they've been so influential on the way we see psychology and certain fields of philosophy. Groetjes van jullie zuiderburen ;)
It really kind of doesn't though. The Murder Next Door dose that. Because that's a psychologist talking about psychology. This book is in historian talking about psychology. If there's one group of academics who need more humility it's historians.
Humans evolved a basic morality as a mechanism to preserve the tribes they lived in. Being disgusted by things like betrayal or unwarranted violence is natural because it can damage the survival of the tribe by comprising trust, which is fundamental to cooperation. Conversely friendly behaviour like generosity is liked by humans because it improves trust and aids survival of the tribe.
Great quote! i like this one a lot too, about taxing the rich: “It’s like being at a fire fighter’s conference and you’re not allowed to talk about water.”
Its about spending more time on encouraging positive reinforcement than focusing on negative reinforcement. Being a teacher I have learned that screaming at a group of misbehaving students doesn't work it just reinforces the behavior. You need to put in place classroom rules that are more about common good than just authoritarianism. People in power who are calm and don't scream and act like a madman are more respected and people will listen to than someone trying to dictate them to behave. The prison system in America is about punishing bad people not redemption or trying to make them a better person. Its about education if someone doesn't know the proper way to behave why do you think they would act that way? If their parents are criminals than wouldn't they just follow in their footsteps? We create people as good and bad for a society by how we engineer their thinking by our actions of those in power. America is full of hate. Why? Because we have created a system where money is the most important part of life. Get rich or die trying. We cheat to get ahead and or trick others and con them out of money. We convince them that a want is a need. Socialist ideas that work our that we work on what is best for the community. That high level of homeless or prisoners is bad for a society as its bad for the group. We need to teach compassion not consumption as what is important. That can change society for the better.
Change the title, you spelled his name wrong. It is not "Ruter...." Still haven't updated your title, what is going on David/producer? Don't you look at your own channel? Edit: They changed it to the correct spelling.
One small example of this concept whereby "If you treat people like _____ that's what you get" is power structures in jobs, and how employees are motivated, namely when middle management is involved. If the manager is a jerk, employees are motivated to do as little as possible without getting fired, even breaking rules and aiming to sabotage said manager if possible. But even if the manager is well-liked, even if he/she treats employees like coworkers simply needing someone to make decisions and delegations, rather than underlings being ordered around, mistrusted, etc., there is still little intrinsic motivation to work as hard as possible when it makes no difference in the employees' own benefits, in fact the only reward goes to the manager in the form of bonuses. For the life of me, I don't understand why so many jobs offer no bonuses to employees at all levels, not even staggered ones with a mere pittance for employees. When the ONLY hard repercussion possible is a negative (getting fired), there is little to motivate employees to do much more than the minimum to earn their basic wages and avoid termination.
I am eager to see the US reform the prison system to be more like Norway's. However, it is possible that the Norwegian penal system can only be fully successful in a society more thoroughly pervaded by humanitarian values at all levels than the Anerican example.
Harold Bridges I think the biggest problem or differenxe between the US and Europe is the education system. Better education elects better politicians. And yes, the US runs on selfishness, as seen now. In Europe we have the governments paying for the people who had to close their businesses, in America everybody is out for themselves, no wonder idiots are protesting. Everyone wants to treat the rich well because they think one day they could get rich and then they don’t want to share.
@@tsfbaf303 The differences are too vast to consider in this format. Yes, American public education is the worst among the wealthy nations as evidenced by the consistently poor performance of American students on the PISA tests. On an everyday basis Americans seem vastly ignorant of the rest of the world without being the least embarassed by that fact. But to compare just the US with France, for instance, we can see that for abundant historical reasons the French government tends to be afraid of its citizenry, while in the US the opposite is true. The most basic problem of the US is that it is more deeply corrupt than the European nations, possibly excepting the UK. Corruption is the ultimate cause of the perpetual American wars visited upon weaker nations, the wretched healthcare system, the rise of fascism in the Republican Party, and the increase in income and wealth inequality among other ills.
I guess if humans were mostly greedy and egotistic, we wouldn't have developed complex languages, simple grunts would have sufficed to communicate warnings and threats. Cooperation goes hand in hand with a complex language.
Agreed. To take your example a step further, how would a society of any size and strength ever even develop if not for the cooperation within a group needed to do so? Without the ability to communicate complex thoughts and ideas through language, as you stated, we could never have made it past our hunting and gathering stage.
Thank you. You already made the comment I came to make. Watching Tuck Everlasting completely lose his shit for being exposed for what he truly is made my day. Almost as good as Ben Shapiro continuously dunking on himself during his BBC interview with Andrew Neil.
@@kegsofvomitspit here is a link to the segment for anyone interested. Epic when Tucker goes crazy and Rutger stays cool. th-cam.com/video/6_nFI2Zb7qE/w-d-xo.html
All I know is, there are certain types of group dynamics that feel inherently uplifting and nice, where the people immediately seem like they'd be a joy to be around and so forth. In those it's natural for me to be social, kind, understanding and all that. Then there are those where you feel like you'll be reprimanded for even existing, where everything you do is assumed to have ulterior motives. At least with me, these types of moods are contagious. They purify/contaminate how I behave and think. So the fact that I can see myself understand and get behind either of these types of group dynamics, implies to me that it's primarily a matter of adjusting one's mindset. So if people are like me, we're capable of both ways of life, and the former is more enjoyable.
Susan Sontag: “10 percent of any population is cruel, no matter what, and 10 percent is merciful, no matter what, and the remaining 80 percent can be moved in either direction.”
(P)rogressive (U)topian (R)eform (P)rojects for a (L)iberated (E)arth Rutger Bregman has played a large influence in what we're trying to accomplish in Canada. We're a new party in the works, with some very realistic & very progressive goals. Stay tuned for content!
Wrong, many people are way worse than they can afford to be. And if you think you are willing to do 'any' evil to keep your children fed, then either your imagination is seriously lacking or you are terrible person. For instance would you murder your brothers kid to feed him to your children? They say 'never say never' but maybe also don't say 'any evil'...
@@MoraqVos do you english? I was trying to imply a bottom. Not saying everyone who can afford to be good will be good. Im saying there is a bottom that cannot afford any morality above struggle to survive. 😂
@@TheGelatinousSnake "do you english?" Really... Next time you question someone's english in an attempt to delegitimize their comment, make sure you get your own writing right. And you are twisting what you said in the original comment.
I find it strange that in the US assertiveness is considered as a sort of virtue, which is total opposite to Japan. I wonder what is the consequence of this as a society level.
Well I got a bit further and I got to say this is my first ever book return. I was not impressed. The beast thing I can say is "dispite your best efforts I still agree."
*LMAO!! What a coincidence! After watching this clip I just started my next chapter in Johann Haris book "Lost Connections" which happens to talk about his interview with Rutger Bregman.* 😯🤔 ..... I think the universe is trying to tell me who's book I should buy next.
If this pandemic has exhibited anything, it's the exact opposite. This has really brought out the prejudiced narrow small minded insular self centered mean spirited pettiness of the masses and how easily they're swayed to scapegoating from a misplaced loathing and resentment
Frans de Waal had the same story about chimpanzees. At first sight it looked like they are very aggressive. But a closer look reveals that the friendly animals were much more influential than the aggressive ones.
"People are basically good" That may show on the greater scale, but I'll put it this way: when I personally assume people are going to neglect me or screw me over, I'm right more often than when I assume people are going to be considerate or helpful.
Macaws and possibly other parrots can blush facialy, so humans are not the only animals able to blush. EO Wilson began the debate in biology looking at the evolutionary basis of social behavior calling it Sociobiology. Many opposed him researching this fearing it being twisted into another form of social darwinism to justify judging people based on their biology or genetics rather than their actual behavior. Sociobiology became controversial in the 1980s but with Trivers and others working in the other fields (such as game theory or population modelling) it has developed so the concept of group selection has been supported with evidence as has kinship selection and mutually beneficial selection or the selection of the friendliest. Another concept is the Red King Theory or the selection of mutual symbiosis between two species as with mycorrhizal networks between species of fungus and plants or as with lichen made up of algae or cyanobacteria and a fungus or all three. Several paths of interdisciplinary research grew to support aspects of the original concept of Wilson. This makes up the current evolutionary social sciences. I never heard Wilson lecture but I read his work and followed the sociobiology arguments in journal letters. Admiring his work influenced me in how I viewed society and politics particularly socialism as a positive basis for organizing our social structures. plato.stanford.edu/entries/sociobiology/
I loves Utopia for realists and already had Humankind om my wish list in Audible. This interview was so welles time to get a preview of the book before getting it.
Basically, “if they want to treat me like a criminal [or whatever], I will act like a criminal” and make it true. Anecdotally, one of my relatives who is actually somewhat not that smart and somewhat antisocial expresses that sentiment
I know cases where this is not true. But, I have seen cases where it is close enough. I think the greatest danger is assuming that all cases are one way or the other. People and society are extremely complicated.
It's nice to think that human nature is fundamentally good but it is simply not the case,and there will never be such a thing as a realistic utopia. This guy is dreaming ,and if is data comes from the mid 1960's as he mentioned than I call his entire book completely circumstantial. The human history goes far back prior to the 60's. If anything , all you gotta do is look at youtube comments and twitter shit storms that show people's true nature. When they are obscure and protected by anonymity people will say the most vile things. We all saw what communists did when they wanted to create their utopia,I do not subscribe to that school of thought. Not at all.
This sounds like a modern version of 18th century Swiss philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau's "Theory of Human Nature". I wonder if the writer got influenced by Rousseau, and how he contrasts himself with Rousseau.
People are basically good. It's when they start to organize and gather in groups-- congregate and scheme-- that's when my misanthropic side comes out. Dogs on the other hand... dogs are wonderful!
You can attribute 10 times more negative attributes to ppl than positive ones. At best ppl en mass cooperate, they do what they were taught to do and live inebriated lives.
Alas, if Rutger wrote with an honorable intention, or if deep down he was descent, not purely selfish then his book would be free to download. It's not. Waste no time w/ "Best-selling Dutch Historian."
First 2 thoughts upon seeing DPak vid title: Clickbait & comments will be few. We’re all just not feeling the ol “ultimate good of humanity” lately. The comments reflect that. As Joe’d say “Malarkey.”
Hard to criticize someone you probably more often agree with, but still I manage to do so. Books aka selling books > Amazon. Its about making money or is it about sharing knowledge/information? I often wonder when seeing people like David and Rutger, so ambitious and different from me in the quest of money/recognition. Also would people take notice of Rutger if he had not been actively seeking it, and receiving it. I fully agree with what gave him notice; his speech on Taxes at Davos. Things from his Utopia for Realists I agree, mostly. Hopeful history…. My reaction: *Hope and the dangers of hope (inactivity).* First thing popping up in my mind is NLP, and we will leave it at that. “Realist” (neutralist. Silently referring to; optimism, negativism.) “Good” is a human construct, not nature. What is good, when is good, etc. The same in a way applies with kindness. Why else are we familiar with cruel to be kind. Or; tough love?! Life is/encompasses more than numbers and geometry. 1- 9 (0) We often seem to forget our own dual nature and capabilities - disaster showing the real face of humans and humanity. Trump = Narcissist. Not all humans are, nor are they sociopath or psychopath. Even if we all have these tendencies. *‘Silent revolution’* in science aka not living on islands of fields and guilds. Like the *silent generation?* Cynical view - hopeful; these are labels put on things by humans, according to their own socializations. The view of human nature. Are we animals yes, are we more, yes. “Oh my God it’s happening over there as well.” (Funny pointing out the NLP in calling on a deity from some in science, or just going with the motion, flow and words used to describe thoughts and feelings.) Fundamentally good, as said before; this is not objective but a socialized stance. Surviving; we’re clearly not angels. *Selfish & EGO* [id, ego, superego] Babies are born selfish, that is why we teach them things; *socializations.* But this is survival and awareness of self and less of others. Not bad, because its not the intent of its just the nature of his incapability and being reliant on others/cooperation. “what you assume is what you get.” Unless the observer is just noting what is taking place, not assuming to start of with, not being biased. Nature doesn’t know good and evil, it knows positive, negative & neutral. So we humans also have the capacity of empathy, some more or ‘better’/ stronger than others. Evolution shows us even in our language - working together. But also is with sex that has a lot to do with evolutions and inventions. Sexual energy and creative energy. [Time/clock; passing of time and whores in brothels, with bowls and water.] *Trust, and being able to trust each other, is what a society is made of and what makes it fall.* Trump is clearly not trustworthy and the nose dive is extreme. The need of them; government, police etc. there is a reason we have had the need. It is also an open secret how power hierarchy works, and exists. Parent child dynamics for starters. I see what you are doing Rutger, (and in the end you even spell it out): Words and use of words; manipulating towards a precipitated/wanted outcome. The deeper laying issue of chaos vs order. Our brains make order in chaos, it restricts us. Without we would be lost as a collective. As you prove; ‘the bystander effect’. *Its not just this one, or that one; its all of them combined!* Veneer theory; the good the bad and both/neutral. Animals and selfish vs humans and kind. You see we are getting of on a bad foot, animals are like us humans. Some a little more some a little less, but we evolved for the same matter. Single cell organisms. As the disaster strikes it is normal that at that time there is chaos. After this comes the ‘explosion of cooperation’ (also a different side of faces you see during disasters) different focus point as David puts it. *But still the same coin, just different sides!* Culture; Asian Greeks, Christian church fathers, enlightenment philosophers. In the end what always showed: power corrupts. {money/gold fever) Realist, lets assume most people are selfish. And are; Idealistic = naïve/alturistic. But that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Just like the cooperation to cooperate evolution. Survival of the friendliest and survival of the fittest. *But what fittest means is socially influenced.* *Group dynamic vs individual dynamic; example being greedy. Doesn’t an individual need an other for his/her/it’s greed to show?* BOTH individual and group level. Both exist. Both influence each other - chicken egg… but which is chicken and which is the egg. Not what came first. Group (more than 1) is the answer, individual we are born selfish. Empathy - love - mother/nurture. Expelling from the group; being friendly don’t matter. Group consensus rules, alpha is the boss. *Social constructs.* LGBTQ+ community is prime example of how this works. Look at the fate of Oscar Wilde. Civilized era - now - romans - Egyptian, Mesopotamian? These where just barbaric, how civilized we have become since. I get your flow, but its not just now, because over two years we also have now, until it has passed us by. Survival of the shameless, many different advantages humans can poses/require to survive. Its about *survival, self-preservation* aka selfish. But then we continue with the opposite and blushing. But to be fair if we compare us with other animals, why not with other humans and ‘races’? White skinned vs the dark skinned (less visible), or with other mammals the fur. We blush for many different reasons; sex and anger are as with all the cornerstones/fundament. We also FLUSH/blush red. Like smiling and showing teeth, evolved and changed. Or done in different ways. Anger and fear, I'll tear you up, to; look my genetics mate with me. Or slave is still healthy and worth money. That vision of human nature blushing and why we evolved to be able to blush. Pandemic - corona we saw the toilet-paper and we saw countries helping each other cures and vaccines. But money makes this a thing a country wants to claim not something shared for humanity. Being pro-social in nature = helping each other. We are not the only animals that work together. On the other side we have our social distancing - physical distancing. Why? WE as a social species do tend to COME together. Herd mentality. It can be a blessing and a downfall. Evolutionary we have many different styles of living even as humans. Fact. Mostly the good/positive, but that still leaves the other side/remainder bad, and slither neutral. *No Hollywood endings, and we still talk about economical systems, even if we talk about social systems.* Because we humans can’t help ourselves? Book tours discussing human nature with people. Talking about basic income, participatory democracy. Which resulted in; his hope to become/get the more hopeful view. “Realistically adopt a more hopeful view of human nature, that resulted in that book.” New found optimism. Social words to describe what exactly?!? You must read the book, buy it at AMAZON, and social equality…. NICE. In the end it comes down to: Prison (Norway) and *self-betterment.* *“If you treat people like crap, they will behave like crap.”* *“Treat people like people and they will behave like people.”* Democratic 2 tribe tribalism. *America needs many changes like yesterday!*
Sure, people are good. But people also disagree on what is right. Conflict is inevitable. Resources are limited. People are willing to cooperate because it is advantageous to be part of a group, how is that not selfish?
@@Ragitsu Most actions are not completely selfless. Good deeds give people a chemical reward in the brain, without this we would not even understand that what we did was right. It's not a bad thing. Beyond taking a bullet for a stranger or an enemy, there's very little situations where there is zero reward for a good deed. But we could be arguing semantics here. If you want to call one helping others selfless, even though they're probably doing so because of the evolutionary benefit of being part of a tribe accompanied by a rush of dopamine, go ahead.
@@CerebralFriction I feel sorry for you. There's healthy introspection where one reflects on the nuances of life (often to realize that their choices define them and that they shouldn't be so quick to live with a black and white mentality) and then there's coldly analyzing the world around one's self to the detriment of one's own humanity. I hope you don't live your life by constantly processing such exacting sociological calculus.
@@Ragitsu Well I'm actually a very grateful and happy person. I understand that people do not like this analysis, as if understanding that a person is rewarded for altruism, makes the altruism less altruistic. I think it's important to understand what really motivates people, and although you may see it as cold analysis, I do not.
@@CerebralFriction It's along the lines of those that posit people are evil and nothing more; their assertion is that anything good is inherently selfish (and "selfish" almost always carries a negative connotation). However, you cannot define one without the other in much the same way dark and light contrast one another...or beauty and ugliness exist as polar opposites that foster the existence of the other.
This brain collective is based on the hard work of scholars of epochs past. They will also finally debunk organized religion, but I'm pretty sure they have already.
,Buddhist Perspective. We are all born with Basic Goodness. Instead of the Christian beliefing you are born full of sin. So barbaric and a Big part of the problem.
recidivism means going back to jail. if a place is easy on criminals, it follows that fewer criminals get caught, charged, sentenced, and incarcerated. that doesn't mean they aren't committing crimes
I am liberal by nature and tend to hope for the best, but I think this is just as much an overgeneralization as the conservative/Christian view that humans are basically sinful. People are neither inherently good nor bad. We are a mix of both. The US is a mess in every way it can be, but we can’t just suddenly adopt Scandinavian policies and expect them to work in a wildly multicultural society. Always seeing the best in people is why Democrats compromise and lose while Republicans cheat and win.
I think this is misleading - and Bregman comes very close to recognizing this here, but as usual for a Human, misses the fundamental problem. People avert from noxious stimuli via nociception regulated by pain and suffering states. That's what "good" means in any kind of rigorous, predictive and parsimonious way: how to resolve "ouch." Humans did not evolve to cooperate. Nothing evolves "to" do anything. Evolution *is a side effect of gene replication* - this teleological god nonsense is question-begging. You cannot claim not to be selfish and continue to rape future generations into existence, knowing they will experience pain, suffering and death - and to ignore that they cannot consent. People are not generally, consciously selfish, I would agree. Most of the selfishness is subconscious. And they will cooperate to the degree this serves gene replication, on average - which is nothing but a path to extinction overall. That's what biology does: rapes more life into existence, just so the population can blow up exponentially and die out in agony. Pointless. Some of the policy he espouses would produce a better world *IF* we also sterilize the planet, and push into nanotechnology / radical life extension. But we won't, because the vast majority of the species is an idiot slave to gene replication.
@@PipleZiple Well in a metaphorical way, we can all be described as tortured. I don't believe in souls, and neither I nor any aspect of my so-called "personality" have any bearing on whether or not anything I've said is coherent, valid or sound though. But think about it. Consciousness of negative valences... a thing averse to its own existence, regardless of duration. This is incredibly stupid to replicate.
@@thejackanapes5866 stupid to replicate stupid to whos standard? Your just an amalgamation of an inconceivable amount of matter and previous occurrence and phenomena. How can you be confident that anything you conclude is worth a second of anyones time?
Really nice to see Rutger get some recognition outside of the Netherlands.
Haha ja leuk om hem bij de DP show te zien!
Great to see Rutger on the David Pakman show, even when his name is pronounced as 'Rukker'
(for the englishspeakers, rukker means wanker).
Godverdomme wat leuk zoveel Nederlanders!!! Hoelang kijken jullie Pakman al?
@Cathalyne Batavian hate watch?
@Cathalyne Batavian als je hem 'hate-watched' ben je gewoon een debiel
Thanks for having Rutger on! So great to see him in shows across the world speaking about his books and research. I'm a proud Dutchmen.
"People think that stories are shaped by people. In fact, it's the other way around." - Witches Abroad, by Terry Pratchett
Sonyaliloquy "Stories think that people are shaped by stories." :)
"That's dumb."-Hugo Mercer... Probably.
Seriously though people are not that stupid. And Hugo Mercer's book Not Born Yesterday makes the argument that people really aren't influenced by stories that much.
Honestly it's so refreshing to see ideas about making the world a better place coming back into fashion. Everyone, even those on the political left, have been too focused on what they fear and what they want to stop.
Man you can see these guys have such respect for each other
I just discovered this guy yesterday, Now This did a great piece about him owning Tucker Carlson on his own show
@Optimus Prime Tucker Carlson fucking sucks. He's an outstanding propagandist, but he's no journalist
That was hilarious. Carlson threw a tantrum.
Watch Rutger Bregman talking with Tucker about taxes th-cam.com/video/6_nFI2Zb7qE/w-d-xo.html
@Optimus Prime He does not inspire awe, but a kind of hopeless contempt
Thanks for this interview. Rutger is one of my personal heroes.
As a Dutch person that has read the book. I can really recommend it to get a new perspective on te human nature. The book also helps to understand why people behave badly.
I loved it!
Especially the alternative analysis of the Stanford prison experiment and the Milgram shock machine provide historical context that seem crucial since they've been so influential on the way we see psychology and certain fields of philosophy.
Groetjes van jullie zuiderburen ;)
It really kind of doesn't though. The Murder Next Door dose that. Because that's a psychologist talking about psychology. This book is in historian talking about psychology. If there's one group of academics who need more humility it's historians.
Humans evolved a basic morality as a mechanism to preserve the tribes they lived in. Being disgusted by things like betrayal or unwarranted violence is natural because it can damage the survival of the tribe by comprising trust, which is fundamental to cooperation. Conversely friendly behaviour like generosity is liked by humans because it improves trust and aids survival of the tribe.
This is the guy that humiliated Tucker Carlson a year ago
"You're a millionaire funded by billionaires" is an alltime great line
Great quote! i like this one a lot too, about taxing the rich: “It’s like being at a fire fighter’s conference and you’re not allowed to talk about water.”
Its about spending more time on encouraging positive reinforcement than focusing on negative reinforcement. Being a teacher I have learned that screaming at a group of misbehaving students doesn't work it just reinforces the behavior. You need to put in place classroom rules that are more about common good than just authoritarianism. People in power who are calm and don't scream and act like a madman are more respected and people will listen to than someone trying to dictate them to behave. The prison system in America is about punishing bad people not redemption or trying to make them a better person. Its about education if someone doesn't know the proper way to behave why do you think they would act that way? If their parents are criminals than wouldn't they just follow in their footsteps? We create people as good and bad for a society by how we engineer their thinking by our actions of those in power. America is full of hate. Why? Because we have created a system where money is the most important part of life. Get rich or die trying. We cheat to get ahead and or trick others and con them out of money. We convince them that a want is a need. Socialist ideas that work our that we work on what is best for the community. That high level of homeless or prisoners is bad for a society as its bad for the group. We need to teach compassion not consumption as what is important. That can change society for the better.
Joshua Banks Well said
This x100
David asks such insightful questions, it really gives his subject a chance to shine. Great interview!
Change the title, you spelled his name wrong. It is not "Ruter...." Still haven't updated your title, what is going on David/producer? Don't you look at your own channel?
Edit: They changed it to the correct spelling.
All the real Gs are under quarantine.
;)
@@hhiippiittyy No, only 5Gs are under quarantine, only they cause Covid.
And while you are busy with that change the text on David's microphone stand..
@@EntropicalNature you mean Heil H....?
One small example of this concept whereby "If you treat people like _____ that's what you get" is power structures in jobs, and how employees are motivated, namely when middle management is involved. If the manager is a jerk, employees are motivated to do as little as possible without getting fired, even breaking rules and aiming to sabotage said manager if possible. But even if the manager is well-liked, even if he/she treats employees like coworkers simply needing someone to make decisions and delegations, rather than underlings being ordered around, mistrusted, etc., there is still little intrinsic motivation to work as hard as possible when it makes no difference in the employees' own benefits, in fact the only reward goes to the manager in the form of bonuses. For the life of me, I don't understand why so many jobs offer no bonuses to employees at all levels, not even staggered ones with a mere pittance for employees. When the ONLY hard repercussion possible is a negative (getting fired), there is little to motivate employees to do much more than the minimum to earn their basic wages and avoid termination.
The problem is when people can't directly see the people that get hurt as a side effect of their actions.
I am eager to see the US reform the prison system to be more like Norway's. However, it is possible that the Norwegian penal system can only be fully successful in a society more thoroughly pervaded by humanitarian values at all levels than the Anerican example.
Harold Bridges I think the biggest problem or differenxe between the US and Europe is the education system. Better education elects better politicians.
And yes, the US runs on selfishness, as seen now. In Europe we have the governments paying for the people who had to close their businesses, in America everybody is out for themselves, no wonder idiots are protesting. Everyone wants to treat the rich well because they think one day they could get rich and then they don’t want to share.
@@tsfbaf303 The differences are too vast to consider in this format. Yes, American public education is the worst among the wealthy nations as evidenced by the consistently poor performance of American students on the PISA tests. On an everyday basis Americans seem vastly ignorant of the rest of the world without being the least embarassed by that fact.
But to compare just the US with France, for instance, we can see that for abundant historical reasons the French government tends to be afraid of its citizenry, while in the US the opposite is true.
The most basic problem of the US is that it is more deeply corrupt than the European nations, possibly excepting the UK. Corruption is the ultimate cause of the perpetual American wars visited upon weaker nations, the wretched healthcare system, the rise of fascism in the Republican Party, and the increase in income and wealth inequality among other ills.
Always good to hear from him. Very positive and grounded opinions.
I watched the Davos videos over and over again. It was nice to see someone speak truth.
I follow Rutger om Twitter and I really like what he has to say.
I will love him forever for the way he owned Fucker Carlson. 😎
This was a great interview David, I’m going to check out Utopia for Realists now.
Its great. I read it yesterday
Tom Bode
That’s great to hear, I ordered mine on eBay so waiting for it!
@@FrikyD1ngo good job!
You can find the audiobook on TH-cam.
I guess if humans were mostly greedy and egotistic, we wouldn't have developed complex languages, simple grunts would have sufficed to communicate warnings and threats. Cooperation goes hand in hand with a complex language.
Agreed. To take your example a step further, how would a society of any size and strength ever even develop if not for the cooperation within a group needed to do so? Without the ability to communicate complex thoughts and ideas through language, as you stated, we could never have made it past our hunting and gathering stage.
This pandemic has shown how stupid people can be. Climate change is coming and society is incapable of solving this collective problem.
It's also showing how people work together. That';s if you don't look towards the United States....
Still love watching Rutger dog walk Tucker Carlson.
Thank you. You already made the comment I came to make.
Watching Tuck Everlasting completely lose his shit for being exposed for what he truly is made my day. Almost as good as Ben Shapiro continuously dunking on himself during his BBC interview with Andrew Neil.
@@kegsofvomitspit here is a link to the segment for anyone interested. Epic when Tucker goes crazy and Rutger stays cool. th-cam.com/video/6_nFI2Zb7qE/w-d-xo.html
My favorite part: "You're a millionaire funded by billionaires. You're part of the problem, not the solution."
My cynicism has a prophetic quality.
I lost it when I saw your comment. LOL
All I know is, there are certain types of group dynamics that feel inherently uplifting and nice, where the people immediately seem like they'd be a joy to be around and so forth. In those it's natural for me to be social, kind, understanding and all that. Then there are those where you feel like you'll be reprimanded for even existing, where everything you do is assumed to have ulterior motives.
At least with me, these types of moods are contagious. They purify/contaminate how I behave and think. So the fact that I can see myself understand and get behind either of these types of group dynamics, implies to me that it's primarily a matter of adjusting one's mindset. So if people are like me, we're capable of both ways of life, and the former is more enjoyable.
Susan Sontag: “10 percent of any population is cruel, no matter what, and 10 percent is merciful, no matter what, and the remaining 80 percent can be moved in either direction.”
Hey Rutger what you're saying is absolutely true. In Islam its called fitrah which means humans are inherently attracted to good.
(P)rogressive (U)topian (R)eform (P)rojects for a (L)iberated (E)arth
Rutger Bregman has played a large influence in what we're trying to accomplish in Canada. We're a new party in the works, with some very realistic & very progressive goals. Stay tuned for content!
People are as good as they can afford to be. If the lives of my children are at risk.. The hight of my morality is any evil that keeps them fed.
Fair enough, but we are pretty far away from having kids experience starvation in most of the West.
Wrong, many people are way worse than they can afford to be. And if you think you are willing to do 'any' evil to keep your children fed, then either your imagination is seriously lacking or you are terrible person. For instance would you murder your brothers kid to feed him to your children? They say 'never say never' but maybe also don't say 'any evil'...
@@MoraqVos do you english? I was trying to imply a bottom. Not saying everyone who can afford to be good will be good. Im saying there is a bottom that cannot afford any morality above struggle to survive. 😂
@@TheGelatinousSnake "do you english?" Really... Next time you question someone's english in an attempt to delegitimize their comment, make sure you get your own writing right.
And you are twisting what you said in the original comment.
@@TheGelatinousSnake Why are you laughing about such a serious discussion?
Thank you for the wonderfully constructive interview, David.
When Rutger speaks,I listen even more carefully.
Now, I'm glad I"m a member. Yes!!!!
I find it strange that in the US assertiveness is considered as a sort of virtue, which is total opposite to Japan. I wonder what is the consequence of this as a society level.
I started the book, but I got to the point where he talks about the selfish gene. If that's what you think that book said you misread it.
Well I got a bit further and I got to say this is my first ever book return. I was not impressed. The beast thing I can say is "dispite your best efforts I still agree."
very good questions made by the interviewer
*LMAO!! What a coincidence! After watching this clip I just started my next chapter in Johann Haris book "Lost Connections" which happens to talk about his interview with Rutger Bregman.* 😯🤔
..... I think the universe is trying to tell me who's book I should buy next.
If this pandemic has exhibited anything, it's the exact opposite. This has really brought out the prejudiced narrow small minded insular self centered mean spirited pettiness of the masses and how easily they're swayed to scapegoating from a misplaced loathing and resentment
The man, the myth, the UBI legend. #CouldaHadYang
In The Human condition there are three ways to become better. You can put people down, you can pick yourself up or you can pick others up
My philosophy is ,,,,90% of the people are good or OK ,,,the 10% are a,,holes ,,,Humanity will persevere in spite of the 10% I'm a hopeless optimist!
How weird, I've been watching a bunch of this guys content recently
Frans de Waal had the same story about chimpanzees. At first sight it looked like they are very aggressive. But a closer look reveals that the friendly animals were much more influential than the aggressive ones.
"People are basically good"
That may show on the greater scale, but I'll put it this way: when I personally assume people are going to neglect me or screw me over, I'm right more often than when I assume people are going to be considerate or helpful.
Great interview
Macaws and possibly other parrots can blush facialy, so humans are not the only animals able to blush.
EO Wilson began the debate in biology looking at the evolutionary basis of social behavior calling it Sociobiology. Many opposed him researching this fearing it being twisted into another form of social darwinism to justify judging people based on their biology or genetics rather than their actual behavior. Sociobiology became controversial in the 1980s but with Trivers and others working in the other fields (such as game theory or population modelling) it has developed so the concept of group selection has been supported with evidence as has kinship selection and mutually beneficial selection or the selection of the friendliest. Another concept is the Red King Theory or the selection of mutual symbiosis between two species as with mycorrhizal networks between species of fungus and plants or as with lichen made up of algae or cyanobacteria and a fungus or all three. Several paths of interdisciplinary research grew to support aspects of the original concept of Wilson. This makes up the current evolutionary social sciences.
I never heard Wilson lecture but I read his work and followed the sociobiology arguments in journal letters. Admiring his work influenced me in how I viewed society and politics particularly socialism as a positive basis for organizing our social structures.
plato.stanford.edu/entries/sociobiology/
I loves Utopia for realists and already had Humankind om my wish list in Audible. This interview was so welles time to get a preview of the book before getting it.
people are basically good; politicians aren't
Humans are also the only ones to cry out of emotion
Thank you David for also these types of subjects
My father used to joke about; That facts has a tendency to stand in the way of 'good opinions'
I started today with his book. Already halfway. Its great
I've read some of his articles through the bien website. I appreciate his work. Thanks for the interview.
Basically, “if they want to treat me like a criminal [or whatever], I will act like a criminal” and make it true.
Anecdotally, one of my relatives who is actually somewhat not that smart and somewhat antisocial expresses that sentiment
I know cases where this is not true. But, I have seen cases where it is close enough. I think the greatest danger is assuming that all cases are one way or the other. People and society are extremely complicated.
Thnks for sharing the Interview David. It was very interesting!
"Humans are the only speacies that blush.."
Most people are a mix of good and bad, I think.
Great conversation!
Awesome interview!
I love Ruter Breman!
But I don't think people are ood.
Rutger**
Ruter is the man!
Jason Zaremba I love him too! Especially when he owned Carlson
I'm loving David's beard 🥰
Folks are basically decent, conventional wisdom would say. But we read about the exceptions in the papers every day. - Neil Peart
Then again, goodness, by comparison, is not nearly as newsworthy.
Great crossover
Scandinavian govts are trusting in citizens good attitude and responsibility
It's nice to think that human nature is fundamentally good but it is simply not the case,and there will never be such a thing as a realistic utopia.
This guy is dreaming ,and if is data comes from the mid 1960's as he mentioned than I call his entire book completely circumstantial.
The human history goes far back prior to the 60's.
If anything , all you gotta do is look at youtube comments and twitter shit storms that show people's true nature.
When they are obscure and protected by anonymity people will say the most vile things.
We all saw what communists did when they wanted to create their utopia,I do not subscribe to that school of thought.
Not at all.
MosesPlays agreed
awesome video this! thank you for your informative entertainment during this time. - From Downunder
Sounds interesting. Will check out those books. Thanks!
Everyone tries to do good, even if their good is misguided
4:16 Rorschach
@David its Rutger not Ruter, its spelled wrong in the title.
This sounds like a modern version of 18th century Swiss philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau's "Theory of Human Nature". I wonder if the writer got influenced by Rousseau, and how he contrasts himself with Rousseau.
Yeah he talks quite a lot about rousseau in the book :)
People are basically good. It's when they start to organize and gather in groups-- congregate and scheme-- that's when my misanthropic side comes out. Dogs on the other hand... dogs are wonderful!
When you centralize power, it draws the attention of those who seek to abuse it.
At 1:42 Lovin' that beard, David!
GEKOLONISEERD?!
Civilian Nazi Germany scholars: "No."
Edit: I know, I know. He says people are inherently pro-social mirrors, not good or bad.
The tax-man
You can attribute 10 times more negative attributes to ppl than positive ones. At best ppl en mass cooperate, they do what they were taught to do and live inebriated lives.
Alas, if Rutger wrote with an honorable intention,
or if deep down he was descent, not purely selfish
then his book would be free to download. It's not.
Waste no time w/ "Best-selling Dutch Historian."
First 2 thoughts upon seeing DPak vid title: Clickbait & comments will be few. We’re all just not feeling the ol “ultimate good of humanity” lately. The comments reflect that. As Joe’d say “Malarkey.”
Hard to criticize someone you probably more often agree with, but still I manage to do so.
Books aka selling books > Amazon. Its about making money or is it about sharing knowledge/information?
I often wonder when seeing people like David and Rutger, so ambitious and different from me in the quest of money/recognition. Also would people take notice of Rutger if he had not been actively seeking it, and receiving it. I fully agree with what gave him notice; his speech on Taxes at Davos. Things from his Utopia for Realists I agree, mostly.
Hopeful history…. My reaction: *Hope and the dangers of hope (inactivity).*
First thing popping up in my mind is NLP, and we will leave it at that.
“Realist” (neutralist. Silently referring to; optimism, negativism.) “Good” is a human construct, not nature. What is good, when is good, etc.
The same in a way applies with kindness. Why else are we familiar with cruel to be kind. Or; tough love?!
Life is/encompasses more than numbers and geometry. 1- 9 (0)
We often seem to forget our own dual nature and capabilities - disaster showing the real face of humans and humanity.
Trump = Narcissist. Not all humans are, nor are they sociopath or psychopath. Even if we all have these tendencies.
*‘Silent revolution’* in science aka not living on islands of fields and guilds. Like the *silent generation?*
Cynical view - hopeful; these are labels put on things by humans, according to their own socializations. The view of human nature. Are we animals
yes, are we more, yes. “Oh my God it’s happening over there as well.” (Funny pointing out the NLP in calling on a deity from some in science, or just going with the motion, flow and words used to describe thoughts and feelings.)
Fundamentally good, as said before; this is not objective but a socialized stance.
Surviving; we’re clearly not angels. *Selfish & EGO* [id, ego, superego]
Babies are born selfish, that is why we teach them things; *socializations.*
But this is survival and awareness of self and less of others. Not bad, because its not the intent of its just the nature of his incapability and being reliant on others/cooperation.
“what you assume is what you get.” Unless the observer is just noting what is taking place, not assuming to start of with, not being biased. Nature doesn’t know good and evil, it knows positive, negative & neutral. So we humans also have the capacity of empathy, some more or ‘better’/ stronger than others.
Evolution shows us even in our language - working together. But also is with sex that has a lot to do with evolutions and inventions. Sexual energy and creative energy. [Time/clock; passing of time and whores in brothels, with bowls and water.]
*Trust, and being able to trust each other, is what a society is made of and what makes it fall.*
Trump is clearly not trustworthy and the nose dive is extreme.
The need of them; government, police etc. there is a reason we have had the need.
It is also an open secret how power hierarchy works, and exists. Parent child dynamics for starters.
I see what you are doing Rutger, (and in the end you even spell it out): Words and use of words; manipulating towards a precipitated/wanted
outcome.
The deeper laying issue of chaos vs order. Our brains make order in chaos, it restricts us. Without we would be lost as a collective.
As you prove; ‘the bystander effect’. *Its not just this one, or that one; its all of them combined!*
Veneer theory; the good the bad and both/neutral. Animals and selfish vs humans and kind.
You see we are getting of on a bad foot, animals are like us humans. Some a little more some a little less, but we evolved for the same matter. Single cell organisms. As the disaster strikes it is normal that at that time there is chaos. After this comes the ‘explosion of cooperation’ (also a different side of faces
you see during disasters) different focus point as David puts it. *But still the same coin, just different sides!*
Culture; Asian Greeks, Christian church fathers, enlightenment philosophers. In the end what always showed: power corrupts. {money/gold fever)
Realist, lets assume most people are selfish. And are; Idealistic = naïve/alturistic. But that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Just like the cooperation to cooperate evolution. Survival of the friendliest and survival of the fittest. *But what fittest means is socially influenced.*
*Group dynamic vs individual dynamic; example being greedy. Doesn’t an individual need an other for his/her/it’s greed to show?*
BOTH individual and group level. Both exist. Both influence each other - chicken egg… but which is chicken and which is the egg. Not what
came first. Group (more than 1) is the answer, individual we are born selfish. Empathy - love - mother/nurture.
Expelling from the group; being friendly don’t matter. Group consensus rules, alpha is the boss.
*Social constructs.* LGBTQ+ community is prime example of how this works. Look at the fate of Oscar Wilde.
Civilized era - now - romans - Egyptian, Mesopotamian? These where just barbaric, how civilized we have become since. I get your flow, but
its not just now, because over two years we also have now, until it has passed us by.
Survival of the shameless, many different advantages humans can poses/require to survive.
Its about *survival, self-preservation* aka selfish. But then we continue with the opposite and blushing.
But to be fair if we compare us with other animals, why not with other humans and ‘races’? White skinned vs the dark skinned (less visible), or with other mammals the fur. We blush for many different reasons; sex and anger are as with all the cornerstones/fundament. We also FLUSH/blush red. Like smiling and showing teeth, evolved and changed. Or done in different ways. Anger and fear, I'll tear you up, to; look my genetics mate with me.
Or slave is still healthy and worth money. That vision of human nature blushing and why we evolved to be able to blush.
Pandemic - corona we saw the toilet-paper and we saw countries helping each other cures and vaccines. But money makes this a thing a country
wants to claim not something shared for humanity. Being pro-social in nature = helping each other. We are not the only animals that work
together. On the other side we have our social distancing - physical distancing.
Why? WE as a social species do tend to COME together. Herd mentality.
It can be a blessing and a downfall. Evolutionary we have many different styles of living even as humans. Fact.
Mostly the good/positive, but that still leaves the other side/remainder bad, and slither neutral.
*No Hollywood endings, and we still talk about economical systems, even if we talk about social systems.* Because we humans can’t help
ourselves? Book tours discussing human nature with people. Talking about basic income, participatory democracy. Which resulted in; his
hope to become/get the more hopeful view. “Realistically adopt a more hopeful view of human nature, that resulted in that book.” New
found optimism. Social words to describe what exactly?!?
You must read the book, buy it at AMAZON, and social equality…. NICE.
In the end it comes down to: Prison (Norway) and *self-betterment.*
*“If you treat people like crap, they will behave like crap.”*
*“Treat people like people and they will behave like people.”*
Democratic 2 tribe tribalism. *America needs many changes like yesterday!*
Sure, people are good. But people also disagree on what is right. Conflict is inevitable. Resources are limited. People are willing to cooperate because it is advantageous to be part of a group, how is that not selfish?
By your metric, there is no such thing as a truly selfless act.
@@Ragitsu Most actions are not completely selfless. Good deeds give people a chemical reward in the brain, without this we would not even understand that what we did was right. It's not a bad thing. Beyond taking a bullet for a stranger or an enemy, there's very little situations where there is zero reward for a good deed. But we could be arguing semantics here. If you want to call one helping others selfless, even though they're probably doing so because of the evolutionary benefit of being part of a tribe accompanied by a rush of dopamine, go ahead.
@@CerebralFriction I feel sorry for you.
There's healthy introspection where one reflects on the nuances of life (often to realize that their choices define them and that they shouldn't be so quick to live with a black and white mentality) and then there's coldly analyzing the world around one's self to the detriment of one's own humanity. I hope you don't live your life by constantly processing such exacting sociological calculus.
@@Ragitsu Well I'm actually a very grateful and happy person. I understand that people do not like this analysis, as if understanding that a person is rewarded for altruism, makes the altruism less altruistic. I think it's important to understand what really motivates people, and although you may see it as cold analysis, I do not.
@@CerebralFriction It's along the lines of those that posit people are evil and nothing more; their assertion is that anything good is inherently selfish (and "selfish" almost always carries a negative connotation). However, you cannot define one without the other in much the same way dark and light contrast one another...or beauty and ugliness exist as polar opposites that foster the existence of the other.
changing the title soon?
They're basically good unless they protest the shelter in place or are antivaxxers
Lol sarcasm?
mmm NO!
Norwegians gals are awesomely gorgeous and smart
This brain collective is based on the hard work of scholars of epochs past. They will also finally debunk organized religion, but I'm pretty sure they have already.
I've read the book. Well written, but his arguments are really bad. Check out the review on my channel!
,Buddhist Perspective. We are all born with Basic Goodness. Instead of the Christian beliefing you are born full of sin. So barbaric and a Big part of the problem.
ruter?
I dunno. Pretty beyond cynical about human nature
recidivism means going back to jail. if a place is easy on criminals, it follows that fewer criminals get caught, charged, sentenced, and incarcerated. that doesn't mean they aren't committing crimes
I am liberal by nature and tend to hope for the best, but I think this is just as much an overgeneralization as the conservative/Christian view that humans are basically sinful. People are neither inherently good nor bad. We are a mix of both. The US is a mess in every way it can be, but we can’t just suddenly adopt Scandinavian policies and expect them to work in a wildly multicultural society. Always seeing the best in people is why Democrats compromise and lose while Republicans cheat and win.
Ah, the "multicultural" scapegoat. We can't have nice things because not everyone has the same skin color, apparently.
Ragitsu Sure. Whatever you say.
@@benp4877 Whatever you (not-so-cleverly) imply.
Not interested in playing your silly game.
This is a question for Jordan Peterson.
Oh my.
Lunatic. Who can even listen to all that crap coming out of his mouth?
Project somewhere else.
I think this is misleading - and Bregman comes very close to recognizing this here, but as usual for a Human, misses the fundamental problem.
People avert from noxious stimuli via nociception regulated by pain and suffering states. That's what "good" means in any kind of rigorous, predictive and parsimonious way: how to resolve "ouch."
Humans did not evolve to cooperate. Nothing evolves "to" do anything. Evolution *is a side effect of gene replication* - this teleological god nonsense is question-begging.
You cannot claim not to be selfish and continue to rape future generations into existence, knowing they will experience pain, suffering and death - and to ignore that they cannot consent.
People are not generally, consciously selfish, I would agree. Most of the selfishness is subconscious. And they will cooperate to the degree this serves gene replication, on average - which is nothing but a path to extinction overall. That's what biology does: rapes more life into existence, just so the population can blow up exponentially and die out in agony. Pointless.
Some of the policy he espouses would produce a better world *IF* we also sterilize the planet, and push into nanotechnology / radical life extension. But we won't, because the vast majority of the species is an idiot slave to gene replication.
You tortured soul.
To bad your also a flawed human that thinks there was any "point" to making your comment.
@@PipleZiple
Well in a metaphorical way, we can all be described as tortured.
I don't believe in souls, and neither I nor any aspect of my so-called "personality" have any bearing on whether or not anything I've said is coherent, valid or sound though.
But think about it. Consciousness of negative valences... a thing averse to its own existence, regardless of duration. This is incredibly stupid to replicate.
Humans aren't perfect. Doesn't mean we aren't good. You've gone the "too smart by half" route here.
@@thejackanapes5866 stupid to replicate stupid to whos standard? Your just an amalgamation of an inconceivable amount of matter and previous occurrence and phenomena. How can you be confident that anything you conclude is worth a second of anyones time?
Disappointing.