First off, to establish my credentials - I'm the son of a retired engineer in the cement industry (my father ran the plants that produced the grey powder known as cement). My father began teaching me at the age of 4 how to properly form, mix, pour and face concrete. In my lifetime I have poured slabs, retaining walls, basketball courts, sidewalks, foundations, and pillars for fencing. Tim, the two main reasons these sleepers failed is 1) because you used too much water in your mix and 2) the size/shape of the sleepers was wrong. The evidence of my first point is the large amount of water that pooled up on top of your sleepers as you vibrated them. For concrete to achieve proper strength the less water used the better. You want to have it just wet enough to pour, but not so wet that it spreads out easily under just the pull of gravity. (There are special additives that you can mix in that can change this factor - they are often used for large projects like sky scrapers and factories, where the concrete has to be pumped to its destination - but for your size project you don't need to worry about any of that.) Just remember, if your mix is runny, you need to add more cement and aggregate. Which takes me to another thought - I also suspect that your mix ratio (parts cement to parts aggregate to sand) was off, though there was not enough footage of your mixing the two for me to tell. The exact ratio used will vary depending on the exact application you are going to apply the final concrete toe (crushed/man-made aggregate tends to be better for high-strength applications, but is usually more expensive, and the proportional amount of sand can greatly change the strength of the mix as well). For your railway at the farm, I'd recommend a 1:2:3 ratio, which consists of one part cement, two parts sand, and three parts aggregate. The second problem with your sleepers were their shape. They were not nearly tall enough when compared to their width. Modern concrete rails generally have a 11:14 ratio, meaning that if they are 14 centimeters wide at the base then they should be 11 or more centimeters tall at the centerline. It is hard to judge from the video exactly what ratio you have there, but it is easy to see that the sleepers were much too short for the width you cast. As for the reinforcement, the pre-tensioned rebar you mentioned in the video is overkill for your application. That is like using a full box of explosives to crack open an egg. For your sleepers, the most effective reinforcement would be to put two 1 centimeter diameter lengths of rebar in the sleeper, one on each side off (but not touching) the pipes that form the holes in the sleeper. You'd want the length of each piece of rebar to be about 2-4 cm shorter than the sleeper itself. Last but not least, you may want to look to the water that you are using when mixing your concrete. In the video there is a distinct color to the water. Not knowing the source I can only speculate, but there are certain contaminates found in water drawn from various places (like soluble sulfates) that can affect the chemistry and/or the crystal formation during the curing process and significantly affect the strength. Anyway, that's my two cents on your experiment. I hope you try it again, using a drier mix, the rebar reinforcement and a taller form. I think you'll be surprised by the results!
I cast some 8 foot long slotted fenceposts and 4 foot "Godfathers" for my garden fencing 40 years ago using greased moulds and a vibrating table. Each one had two 6mm steel rods in it and they are still fine today. Your advice on the minimum water for the mix is important. I find normal concrete takes about a month to cure properly. You can remove them from the mould to cure after a couple of days but don't expect to use them for a few weeks. HLR Engineering, Rugby.
What a giant comment, very helpfull, thanks. One question: Is it possible that he removed the sleepers from the mould to early so that the removing, handling, and laying down already caused stress on the still weak material and, thus, created fractures?
And he could also use plastic pipe inserts that fit snuggly on the metal pipes an let them be permanently left in the slepers, pulling out the recces formers /pipes from the still very soft concrete may rip out concrete from the surface or even crack the whole thing . I think he should make a mold that may fit 10 sleepers at the time and use glassfiber reinforcement bars after curing he can cut the ling piece into the separate slepers . The grp rebar will not rust when exposed after the cut. To simplify cutting a piece of cardboard or plastic can be put into the form only leaving the bit with the rebar in to cut ,then he can simply break of whatever concrete that is not cut trough.
Finally, you're not asking your sleepers to work as simply supported beams. I know they wont be resting comfortably on ballast but they wont be enduring massive bending or tensile loads. They will be operating in compression only 99% of the time. To call the glass fiber reinforced sleepers a failure because they couldn't withstand 9 jumps at the middle when barely supported at either end, is probably asking a bit too much of them. Great video as always though Tim, thank you!
Well, it is failure if purpose of these is to withstand all that will encounter it. And being stressed like this is fairly probable. Making something that will fail is just waste of time and material.
One final tip, you can make a phone call to your local area concrete facility, and ask them what mix they use building their concrete parking blocks/stops. Also since you need 500 of them, you might ask them what they would charge you to make parking block stops in your particular needed length, you might be surprised how much they are costing you to buy them in bulk. Here in the states at least, those parking block/stops are about 6 feet in length, and have a hole about 8 inches in from each end that is used to drive rebar down into the ground to secure them. They use pieces of very inexpensive thin walled plumbing pipe, inserted into the mold prior to adding the concrete, and those are simply left in place.
I would recommend to use a much drier mixture. It should have a consistency of wet sand that doesn't flow and you can build sand castles from. Build a simple vibrating table. If you need to see mine I can make a short video. You can pop them out of the form almost instantly.
Yes I also think he used too much water in the mixture. You always need to use the right amount of water for the amount of cement to make strong concrete. If you want the concrete to be thin, you need to use a lot more cement, so you can add more water. If there is more water in the mixture than the amount of cement needs to cure, the excess of water stays in the cured concrete and makes it brittle.
I cast some 8 foot long slotted fenceposts and 4 foot "Godfathers" for my garden fencing 40 years ago using greased moulds and a vibrating table. Each one had two 6mm steel rods in it and they are still fine today. Your advice on the minimum water for the mix is important. I find normal concrete takes about a month to cure properly. You can remove them from the mould to cure after a couple of days but don't expect to use them for a few weeks. HLR Engineering, Rugby.
Hi Tim, we found old milking parlor wooden grids, made of some exotic hardwood, are often discarded by dairy farmers..cut up, they make low cost wooden rot free sleepers.
The best thing about this channel is your honesty. You don't try to hide the things you got wrong. Instead you show us, and you explain what the mistake was. Whether that's so you hope we don't repeat the error, or more likely just because you know we want to see it all warts and all, it's just great that you show us what you did, rather than what TH-cam thinks we should see. :)
Concrete sleepers are normally 1.5 to 1.75 times larger than wooden sleepers. Also, if you tried to place your pegs in the holes after the concrete has cured, then your sleepers will probably crack anyway. But you still want concrete sleepers, then try placing your pegs in the form like before, except push the pegs all the way through and outside the form. Then weld two strips of rebar to the pegs. Then pour your concrete. Try that
@5:40 - I wondered what the devil you were doing trying to drill that large a hole in wood with a hammer drill. That trick is flippin' brilliant, mate!
I agree. His method is great. I have used a reciprocating saw (Sawzall), without the blade, and it does a great job. If you have a small project with a form, I would think that a jigsaw would do the same.
@@brodystowers8092 bear in mind though that as the bubbles come up, the aggregates go down and you can get segregation with too wet a mix. fine though if you don't overdo it
Dear inventor Tim. 👍👌👏 2) Using smooth pieces of a plastic gutter is quite ingenious. So no formwork oil is needed. For having a little bit thicker sleepers you could leave on what you've cut off with the table saw. It shouldn't hinder you pulling/sliding the slightly cured concrete bars out of the mold. Of course you could also grind the "hook" at both ends of the gutter flat. 3) You need to add more and specific fibres. Additionally you should not use such big pieces of gravel in the mix and have a dryer mix in general. As I already suggested last time, you can use recycled material coming from demolished houses etc. (better for the environment). 4) You can mix fast curing concrete so that you are able to take the sleepers out of the molds after one day, This would reduce the fabrication time to 50 days for making 500 sleepers. Thanks a lot for making teaching explaining recording editing uploading and sharing. Best regards luck and health in particular.
Please experiment with metal sleepers Tim! A piece of sheet metal bent in a u shape similar to the gutter you were using will be light and easy, and the reduced peg material needed (since they would just need to be welded to the top rather than go all the way through a sleeper) would surely compensate for some of the cost. Best of luck with the farm, railway and weather!
thank you for all the detail on your rail design, i think this is a very good idea. you have far too much water in your concrete, this will severely impact strength, and quite likely fracture in the winter, because cured concrete is waterproof, and you will have trapped water in there, which will freeze, and break your concrete. good concrete should be wetted only just enough, and never more. ≈ i would suggest cutting 2 inch heavy hardware cloth (wire mesh) into strips, to make your rebars. but overall i think you are right, concrete is not the best solution for your application, and i look forward to hearing your findings on recycled plastic. very much wish i could be doing these things myself. maybe one day.
The concrete block was invented in Canada by a professor at Guelph. He was looking for a way to shape very dry concrete and the shape of the block let him apply pressure in a mould easily. A few years ago, I was in Africa and the local hardware store had the mould to make them. Then driving down the road, they were building a house - and the guys were making the blocks on site! Again, as you say, all about the barely damp mix. So, could someone come up with a mould that the sleepers pop out of ask soon as formed and they fry out of the mould, as is the case of blocks? You can go on line and see them making blocks by hand.
@@robinkirk3601 try kitchen parchment paper to line the moulds, perhaps? if possible, i would start with a backing board, drilled to match your peg holes, then line, rebar and slightly over fill your moulds upside down, then fit the pegs into the backing board, and then flip everything over, to cure in the upright position, resting on the backing board. i would also wrap the pegs in parchment, to make them easier to remove. i suggest you need to get the water mix exactly right, so it holds firm like a sand castle, and can be turned out immediately after moulding. as to your recipe, i had look this up, and you may not like it, but you should be considering an elastic mix, comprising: Portland Cement: 100 parts Rubber powder: 3-8 parts Fly ash: 20-50 parts Silica fume: 5-20 parts Fine aggregate: 200-300 parts Coarse aggregate: 250-300 parts Expanding agent: 5-15 parts (more optional) Water reducer: 1.0-2.0 parts (more optional) Defoaming agent: 0.001 part (more optional) Water: 40-60 parts your vibration technique is a good one, and will help. the glass fibres are a good idea also. i would suggest you look into steam curing - if you can get it to 50 to 80 C for a few days, you would be approaching full strength already. use a heavy-gauge wire mesh, such as A393 reinforcing mesh with 10mm wires. keep it wet for at least two weeks, to ensure a full cure.
Very interesting results. For a bit, I thought the fiber-based would be adequate. My brain hurt at 4:56, as those fibers can literally get under your skin when handling. Similarly, that stuff can be inhaled and will wreak havoc with your lungs and airway. Your videos are always informative and entertaining. Thank you!
@cpworld68 makes a good point. The guttering could be used as cast in situ formwork. 500 peices of gutter for youtr 500 sleepers. And cast the pegs into the concrete. You could even lay them out in the field and cast them in their final resting place. It would mean that you wouldn't be waiting for one batch to set before pouring the next
Hello Tim, hope you survived the recent storm okay, 57kmh winds not fun, just got power restored today after being out since Friday evening. My only suggestion to the concrete sleeper after reading other excellent comments is to add SBR, this is usually done for water proofing or better adhesive but may help avoid cracking, or breaking. Its fairly cheap for 20 litre tub, might be worth a try perhaps in combination with other reinforcement such as rebar, this is something I hope to use come spring time as need to make a concrete septic tank cover, great tips from sgibbons, cheers
*Concrete is King!* 1). Dryer mix (less water, or substitue a wetting agent). 2). Smaller aggregate (or none at all "only cement, sand, and glass fibers). 3). Cure in water. Adding "nonferrous reinforcement" would be even better (fiberglass rods). But you want cheap... "wood is cheap" but doesn't last (your labor isn't "free"). 🤔
I read recently that the big railways have been going away from concrete sleepers already, they are not lasting the way they had expected. I imagine they would last for ages in *your* application, but they definitely are slow to make. You might use a *few* if you have places where the rail goes that are *unusually* more wet and sodden than the rest of the railway.
the concrete sleepers would be good in some places, anywhere that is excessively wet for example. if you take the rail supports and weld them to a chunk of flat iron so its like |____| then you use the bolt holes to hang the metal part way off the bottom of the sleeper then fill it in with the glass fiber concrete. sure they would be a LOT of work but they should last quite a lot longer than wood. the rail supports would also either need a cap or to be filled with concrete so they dont just hold water.
The concrete sleepers look minted but a lot of work to make. The engineer in me says concrete but the me doing the says timber for cost, speed, easy handling and mass production. You could have all them knocked up in a shift from wood including a coat of preservative. Sure the wood will rot out but it will be a gradual process and they won’t all fail at the same time, just part of maintenance. I’ll still watch you whatever material you use. All the best Tim.
Hello Tim, In January 2023, MIT News published an article about Roman concrete. Extract: "Historically, it had been assumed that when lime was incorporated into Roman concrete, it was first combined with water to form a highly reactive paste-like material, in a process known as slaking. But this process alone could not account for the presence of the lime clasts. Masic wondered: “Was it possible that the Romans might have actually directly used lime in its more reactive form, known as quicklime?” Studying samples of this ancient concrete, he and his team determined that the white inclusions were, indeed, made out of various forms of calcium carbonate. And spectroscopic examination provided clues that these had been formed at extreme temperatures, as would be expected from the exothermic reaction produced by using quicklime instead of, or in addition to, the slaked lime in the mixture. Hot mixing, the team has now concluded, was actually the key to the super-durable nature. “The benefits of hot mixing are twofold,” Masic says. “First, when the overall concrete is heated to high temperatures, it allows chemistries that are not possible if you only used slaked lime, producing high-temperature-associated compounds that would not otherwise form. Second, this increased temperature significantly reduces curing and setting times since all the reactions are accelerated, allowing for much faster construction.” During the hot mixing process, the lime clasts develop a characteristically brittle nanoparticulate architecture, creating an easily fractured and reactive calcium source, which, as the team proposed, could provide a critical self-healing functionality. As soon as tiny cracks start to form within the concrete, they can preferentially travel through the high-surface-area lime clasts. This material can then react with water, creating a calcium-saturated solution, which can recrystallize as calcium carbonate and quickly fill the crack, or react with pozzolanic materials to further strengthen the composite material. These reactions take place spontaneously and therefore automatically heal the cracks before they spread. Previous support for this hypothesis was found through the examination of other Roman concrete samples that exhibited calcite-filled cracks. To prove that this was indeed the mechanism responsible for the durability of the Roman concrete, the team produced samples of hot-mixed concrete that incorporated both ancient and modern formulations, deliberately cracked them, and then ran water through the cracks. Sure enough: Within two weeks the cracks had completely healed and the water could no longer flow. An identical chunk of concrete made without quicklime never healed, and the water just kept flowing through the sample. As a result of these successful tests, the team is working to commercialize this modified cement material." Google Roman concrete. David L. Chandler | MIT News Office Publication Date:January 6, 2023.
One trick I've used for cutting plastic with a rotary power saw is to turn the blade (fine tooth is best) around so the teeth face backwards. It'll still cut the plastic but will be far less prone to chipping the plastic along the cut.
I think you made an important point about time to make them, they may not be a good option for all the sleepers, but next time you have some left over concreate you could make a few so it doesn't go to waste, even if you dont have a use for them at that time, as they wont rot they can sit around getting stronger until you need them.
Jim Y again, the concrete panels I made were 2.5" thick, just short of 4' long and 8" wide. I used cut pieces of welded wire fencing for reinforcement and have had very little breakage. I also used a much drier mix, I mixed it wet then mixed in more concrete till I had a nice dry mix - just short of being hard to work. I like those rain gutter molds, could you sand or plane that lip off instead of cutting it? It would leave the molds a tiny bit thicker. More molds means faster production - but I'm going to leave that up to you to figure out. Another possibility is going with mostly cheap wood sleepers this year and replace them with concrete as needed. Speaking of wood sleepers soaking wood in used motor oil makes it very rot resistant. I made a set of 4 wheel chocks out of 4" x 4" cutoffs and soaked them in oil for 3 days more than ten years ago, they still show little wear and zero rot. After a couple of weeks they stopped leaving traces of oil around. Jim Y
Well, definitely worth the wait. Very fascinating research. I kind of wonder how chicken wire may have worked if it were put into the concrete mix. I know it's used in a lot of professional concrete work when rebar is too big. I'm placing my bet on the prefab plastic sleepers.
Hi all good advice below. the only thing i would add is you can buy deeper guttering of the shelf[ or blag it in your case] and i would keep the sleepers damp once they have set as it continues the hardening process, it will stop if they dry out.
I think you have a proven way of making the sleepers with the pegs into either wood or plastic. The slotted idea seems a bit fanciful for your situation. I like the idea of recycled plastic but, if memory serves me, I think it was quite a job to produce at scale. Great idea though. I think the timber is the simplest and easiest option. I loved the use of guttering to cast the sleepers but it would have taken you an age to make enough of them. I always find your videos so interesting. 😊👍
Continuing with the proposal of your design, you could use the gutters in their maximum length that come distributed and subdivide them inside with cardboard or plastic cards cut with the shape of the same, and it would make it possible to make many more than one cement pour.
Could I suggest cutting up Rockwall insulation & dropping a good handful into your cemet mix as it works really well as a rebar supplement and strengthens the cement loads for next to no cost
Hey Tim i use a drill bit designed for dirt to mix concrete in a bucket. $10-$20. Garden drill bits about 1 1/2" or 2" work very well. Spin backwards to mix the corners of the bucket.
you could make sleepers in whole gutter lengths and after a couple of days saw them in the right length. That way you could experiment with pre-tensioning far easier. Maybe a proper concretemixer adds to the quality of the concrete
That fiberglass sleeper looks like the one you need, as it would easily withstand the forces it would get under your railroad usage and would not be subject to that load you put on it to failure. I think you missed that. You already have the solution but are thinking way too much about the required strength. Anyway, I really enjoy your videos. Please keep them coming!!
I'm glad you tried, Tim! If you had not, you would have always wondered "what if" and you've but that one to bed. I remember seeing some TH-cam videos on them building concrete sleepers for full-sized railroads and making sure they were under tension (for strength). That would be the ticket, but in your case, wood would be better. Easier and most likely cheaper! Now if only you had an unlimited supply of timber you could use your wood mill (if you still have all the parts) to cut your own wooden sleepers! Keep up the fight - regards to Sandra from Annie and Sam 😊
As others have said... less water! Also could you use old fibreglass tent poles as reinforcement? At the end of festival season there are hundreds of tents abandoned. Charities collect and recycle them.... might be a cheap source. Also you could have a rotation system with 3 sets of the moulds, so you don't tie up a set for three days at a time. Though if the concrete route really is a no goer, can you 'pickle' the timber ones in used engine oil to preserve them?
I know some comments were made about the reinforcement and such as well as the concrete mix and how much water is involved. Personally I worked construction paving roads and there the HUGE thing was making sure you had a solid base. The sleepers on the ground will always be in compression naturally, so remember that when you are testing. Also instead of removing the posts I would suggest taking a piece of reinforcement bar and drill holes in the pegs for it to slide in to or weld it to the pegs at the correct distance, just be careful welding galvanized steel the zinc coating will create a nasty gas fume that will make you sick or worse... I actually plan to cast concrete panels that are 6' long 3.5" thick and 12" tall with holes in the ends for rebar to slide through to build some fence panels and what I have said about the grid is exactly what I am going to do. Basically when I build the form there will be a dowel to hold the pipe in place where needed and then the rebar will get welded in and a welded grid will be formed in between. Once the panels are made the ends will be staggered so they key together and the fence can be constructed. I tested if it would work by making some headstones for Halloween that I put in my front yard (still waiting for someone to try to steal one or kick one, hehehehehe) and two years later they are in great shape. Since you need the pegs anyway may as well cast them in place with the holes already drilled in the top so all you have to do is drop a sleeper down onto the grade and bolt the rails on. The only place that will not work is where you will be creating a switch of some sort but even then you already know the lengths you need and can custom build those or rely on wood for the sleepers where you have points. Also for a release agent we used a mix of oil and kerosene or diesel on our forms so they were easier to strip off since it could be sprayed on with a garden sprayer.
one thing to note about concrete soon as you get them out of the mold put them onto the moist ground or into the wetter areas concrete loves water to cure in an makes it harder used oil on the molds to help them let go of the concrete
Regardless of whether your concrete was the right mix or not Tim, time must be a factor, you'll be an old man by the time you get 500 of those concrete sleepers made!, why not just go with doug fir 2x4s charred and accidently exposed to some old engine oil !!!!!, could have them all made in a few days, done, ready to lay track! Still those concrete ones did look nice! and with a bit of tinkering (less wet mix, higher strength mix, smaller aggregate, one piece of 3/8'' rebar and Bob's your uncle) they would be strong enough! Keep up the good work. Cheers
Keep with the pegs! They secure the rail without having to cut a cross section, are reusable and easily disassembled as you have done before. Wood or plastic can be redrilled for needed changes, and will be much lighter than concrete. You can also knock out a lot of wood and plastic parts without having to wait for curing time! No flexibility with concrete. Plastic and wood are the most reliable and simplest solution. If it aint broke, don't fix it! Best wishes!
To improve durability and reduce cracking, consider adding cheap polypropylene fibers (0.6-1.8 kg per cubic meter of concrete) to control shrinkage. Graphene powder (0.01-0.1% of the cement weight) would be another option for extra strength and density, but is currently sadly extremely costly, even tho tiny amounts of Graphene could make the sleepers tougher and more resistant to weathering. For curing, keep the sleepers covered with a wet cloth or plastic sheet to maintain moisture-old towels or even a tarp work well as cost-effective options. This will help prevent surface cracks and ensure maximum strength. Looking forward to seeing the finished track!
Just use wood, been used on trains since they were invented. The wood can be preserved in a variety of methods. Used motor oil, tar all kinds of chemicals, but for fence posts we used to just char them. I've pulled fence post up from 30 years ago and they are still good but rotted where there was no charring
I would cast the pegs into the sleepers. The advantage is that they are stuck and will not come off as easily. How about welding them to the reinforcement before the concrete?
I wonder if you could run the wire through small holes in the wooden forms at the end of each mold, tighten the wire (really tight), and thus create pre-stressed concrete. This is basically what is done for the overpasses on freeways. You could speed things up by making the molds double (triple, quadruple) length, and then cutting them. I don't know if you can get away with using a normal type saw if you cut them before they are fully cured.
Is there a way to dig a trench and mold them in place in the ground? then you wouldn't have to worry about the weight to transport them or the amount of molds.
Fascinating video! My first thought is why can't you just cast the rail pegs straight into the concrete, why do you need to cast a separate hole? I am pretty sure that not all commercial concrete sleepers use prestressed reinforcement, in fact I was a little surprised that the straight concrete one broke so easily because it should be relatively evenly supported by the ground and concrete should only break like that if it bends a lot or if there is a problem with the mix. I am wondering if maybe there was too much water in your concrete mix, concrete is strongest when there is just enough water to wet the cement and all of the aggregate and your concrete looked pretty soupy. In any case I think that one or two thin pieces of commercial rebar towards the bottom of the sleeper would prevent it from cracking that way, and I think that the wire was just too flexible to really help. I also agree with some other commenters that using fibers should be the strongest by far, but I think that fiber reinforced concrete uses a lot more fibers than you were using. Sometimes FRC uses glass fibers and sometimes it uses metal fibers, think that metal might distribute more easily... maybe you could DIY something by using a bunch of wire nails or something like that? Or maybe it's pretty cheap to buy commercially, I'm not really sure. The entire mix definitely needs to be heavily saturated with whatever fibers you use to really work properly though. In terms of needing many moulds to make enough sleepers, what about making a longer mold and buying a cheap concrete saw to cut them to length afterwards / during the curing process? Loved the idea of using a hammer drill to consolidate the concrete!
Ever thought of steel sleepers? Some railways use them. And it would be easy to make. Steel is strong in pull force. But expensive i think. I would just stick to wood 😂
Actually a fair amount of miniture railways use them too because of how long they last and the long term savings in maintenence and repairs that result. One I volonteered at cut up old concrete fence posts that had been gifted to them.
I can't help feeling concrete is probably the best option. Wood is not viable unless you treat it with something nasty and who wants to bury a ton of plastic in their ground. Here's an idea. Make your moulds so that the posts go all the way though which saves you the step of removing them and refitting. Drill holes in the posts so that a bit below half way down the sleeper you can add a rod of rebar - I has to be at the bottom of the sleeper. Ideally the bar should be in tension but it'll still work as long as it's in the correct place. Make the sleeper deeper (vertical dimension) it'll be stronger.
You own a welder! Tack on a stick of #2 rebar to both pegs and cast the pegs in place. You already have the holes in the mold the pegs just need to be out further, so the rails attach after the cure. Oversize pre-drill the holes even. Pop it out of the mold and ready to go. As far as the cure time, if you can handle them you can place them and attach the rail, then wait.... The biggest problem I can see with the test is with the mix. You will need a mixer. And a recipe for strong concrete. Here in the states it's bags of quickcrete for ease. But you can make it yourself with portland cement, not lime, sand and gravel. The first sleeper was due to a poor mix.
Years ago, my brother-in-law bought used pallets that were made from recycled plastic and used the parts to make a small deck and some deck furniture. Maybe there is something similar you could source in Ireland for cheap and turn the plastic planking into sleepers?
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 One other thought... I you fill the molds partially and then press another form into the center to displace some of the concrete between the rods, you should be able to reduce the amount of concrete by 10 to 15 percent. I know you were showing how easily you could break them as you did, but in service they would not be loaded in the center like that. Also the depression in the center would allow the sleeper to "key" into the ground or ballast and reduce latteral movement on the bends.
Maybe run the mold stock through the saw cup down, with the blade on the inside of the cup. Have you ever heard the American railroad term Gandy dancer? You might enjoy their music.
Some modifications that could be done. 1. A sleepers length of re-bar should add all the strength needed. (Any job site would properly have what is needed as scrap) 2. Use wood not plastic forms. (Scrap wood work just fine - again job sites as source) 3. Wood dowels for the hols instead of pipes. Just drill them out when the concrete is cured. 4. Make the forms square. Then you can set them side by side and only need on length of plank for each sleeper. In this way make all the sleepers needed for each section you build in one go.
Couple thoughts With concrete you could cast in the pipes and leave them Fiber re-enforced looked pretty good What about fiber and post-tensioning with a piece of rebar that's threaded on one end? (would need to cast in a hole or use a pvc pipe in place.
Could use angle iron as slippers, if you use it as rail's too, then you can drop the peg, and just use a bolt to connect them. Just like you slimmed down the rail, from propper real railroad profile, you can also slim down the slippers. You mostly need to have the fixed distance between the two rails, and don't need much more, it's overkill to have real sleeper's, like the old mining carts carrying ton's of ore in the past. It's a common practice as a quick/temporary fix on real railroads. They are small, relatively light, easy to make, move and install. If your lucky, then the scrapyard has a pile of old galvanized fence posts or something similar. Hope this helps, full steam ahead.
I'm not sure I can explain this idea very well. But what about making your molds from old pallet wood, and just leaving them together with the concrete in the middle acting as a filler? Would that have any advantage economically and time savings for construction? You could still weave wire through the wood box, even tightening it some way for tensil strength. Or use rebar as suggested below. Just a thought.
Hello Tim! This was a very interesting video for sure! As i was watching, I wondered - do you think it would work to cast the pegs into the sleepers, that they would be permanently fixed in the concrete? I suppose this would take some extra setup time for each cast to place the pegs just right so they cure in the right place. If the pegs were permanent, I also wondered if it would work to stretch that metal wire between the two pegs, if you're looking to get some metal under tension in there. Wonderful video as always! Hello from Canada!
You can accelerate concrete hardening by wetting sleepers, putting them into an airtight container and gas them with CO2. Concrete hardens by absorbing water and CO2. As for the binding material, try wool or flax instead of glas-fiber.
Honestly ....depends on the prices that come with anything you buy but, the plastic ones sure seem like overall they have the best of every world ..... not that the world needs more plastic but, they would withstand your enviornment being wet a lot better concrete wouldn't be very cost effecient and wood works but treating it would be a must for long use . It's your budget and time so go with what works for you ! I know you'll do great !
the fibres used in mixes (think they called duron) are more like hard sticks than soft fibres, way stronger than steel mesh. we used to have bag of them you just added in. they mix loads easier. check out tom lamb lastest vid towards the end, he been using them
Tim, i think that there wouldn't be any real benefit to pre-tensioned reinforcement in your 15" centre to centre sleepers. But just adding 2 pieces of rebar with decent cover would be enough to provide tensile strength for the sleeper to not break under load. Alternatively, Jamie mantzel has shown that nylon rope can be used successfully for concrete reinforcement.
Maybe add one piece of rebar, cut to the length of the sleeper, along with the glass fibers? Rebar is never under tension when a concrete slab is poured - the rebar is wired together to form a grid of sorts. So I think that you don't require tension in your application as your sleepers are short in length. I still think the plastic ties are the best bang-for-money, as they are fast to make, last a long time, and they take plastic out of the waste-stream.
I used to work in coal mines in Kent, UK. We had narrow gauge track underground, which had wood sleepers in good ground areas, but steel mostly elsewhere, similar profile to your guttering, but up the other way. Any thoughts on this?
What about a hybrid approach? You could use mass-produced concrete blocks for the ground contacts, with a wooden tie to hold the rails to each other and to the bricks. Perhaps the recycled plastic could be made in sheet form and placed atop the wood as a "roof" to make them last longer.
I wonder if you would be able to fire your own bricks using that charcoal furnace you made a while ago, that might work out a slight cheaper than concrete perhaps?
When cutting PVC like your gutter, use a cheap hollow ground blade, and install it in reverse. This is how people that install PVC siding cut the material. Process the part as normal, but the reversed blade will not catch the plastic and rip it out.
hello if you make the pegs ready to fit them on the rail weld them together with two rods stick them trough the mould . pour the concrete . , this makes it a lot stronger .
First off, to establish my credentials - I'm the son of a retired engineer in the cement industry (my father ran the plants that produced the grey powder known as cement). My father began teaching me at the age of 4 how to properly form, mix, pour and face concrete. In my lifetime I have poured slabs, retaining walls, basketball courts, sidewalks, foundations, and pillars for fencing.
Tim, the two main reasons these sleepers failed is 1) because you used too much water in your mix and 2) the size/shape of the sleepers was wrong.
The evidence of my first point is the large amount of water that pooled up on top of your sleepers as you vibrated them. For concrete to achieve proper strength the less water used the better. You want to have it just wet enough to pour, but not so wet that it spreads out easily under just the pull of gravity. (There are special additives that you can mix in that can change this factor - they are often used for large projects like sky scrapers and factories, where the concrete has to be pumped to its destination - but for your size project you don't need to worry about any of that.) Just remember, if your mix is runny, you need to add more cement and aggregate.
Which takes me to another thought - I also suspect that your mix ratio (parts cement to parts aggregate to sand) was off, though there was not enough footage of your mixing the two for me to tell. The exact ratio used will vary depending on the exact application you are going to apply the final concrete toe (crushed/man-made aggregate tends to be better for high-strength applications, but is usually more expensive, and the proportional amount of sand can greatly change the strength of the mix as well). For your railway at the farm, I'd recommend a 1:2:3 ratio, which consists of one part cement, two parts sand, and three parts aggregate.
The second problem with your sleepers were their shape. They were not nearly tall enough when compared to their width. Modern concrete rails generally have a 11:14 ratio, meaning that if they are 14 centimeters wide at the base then they should be 11 or more centimeters tall at the centerline. It is hard to judge from the video exactly what ratio you have there, but it is easy to see that the sleepers were much too short for the width you cast.
As for the reinforcement, the pre-tensioned rebar you mentioned in the video is overkill for your application. That is like using a full box of explosives to crack open an egg. For your sleepers, the most effective reinforcement would be to put two 1 centimeter diameter lengths of rebar in the sleeper, one on each side off (but not touching) the pipes that form the holes in the sleeper. You'd want the length of each piece of rebar to be about 2-4 cm shorter than the sleeper itself.
Last but not least, you may want to look to the water that you are using when mixing your concrete. In the video there is a distinct color to the water. Not knowing the source I can only speculate, but there are certain contaminates found in water drawn from various places (like soluble sulfates) that can affect the chemistry and/or the crystal formation during the curing process and significantly affect the strength.
Anyway, that's my two cents on your experiment. I hope you try it again, using a drier mix, the rebar reinforcement and a taller form. I think you'll be surprised by the results!
Really helpful and informative advice, thanks for sharing (I learnt something, everyday is a school day).
I cast some 8 foot long slotted fenceposts and 4 foot "Godfathers" for my garden fencing 40 years ago using greased moulds and a vibrating table. Each one had two 6mm steel rods in it and they are still fine today. Your advice on the minimum water for the mix is important. I find normal concrete takes about a month to cure properly. You can remove them from the mould to cure after a couple of days but don't expect to use them for a few weeks. HLR Engineering, Rugby.
What a giant comment, very helpfull, thanks.
One question: Is it possible that he removed the sleepers from the mould to early so that the removing, handling, and laying down already caused stress on the still weak material and, thus, created fractures?
I would use full lengths of guttering and hardboard spacers to set the lengths. Just cut the rebar when fully cured.
And he could also use plastic pipe inserts that fit snuggly on the metal pipes an let them be permanently left in the slepers, pulling out the recces formers /pipes from the still very soft concrete may rip out concrete from the surface or even crack the whole thing .
I think he should make a mold that may fit 10 sleepers at the time and use glassfiber reinforcement bars after curing he can cut the ling piece into the separate slepers .
The grp rebar will not rust when exposed after the cut.
To simplify cutting a piece of cardboard or plastic can be put into the form only leaving the bit with the rebar in to cut ,then he can simply break of whatever concrete that is not cut trough.
Finally, you're not asking your sleepers to work as simply supported beams. I know they wont be resting comfortably on ballast but they wont be enduring massive bending or tensile loads. They will be operating in compression only 99% of the time. To call the glass fiber reinforced sleepers a failure because they couldn't withstand 9 jumps at the middle when barely supported at either end, is probably asking a bit too much of them. Great video as always though Tim, thank you!
We're all here to see Tim's Railroad, not yours Pal..
and we are all here not to see someone whining about having a discussion let a lone giving feedback. get out of here Baby Boomer.
Good points!
Well, it is failure if purpose of these is to withstand all that will encounter it. And being stressed like this is fairly probable. Making something that will fail is just waste of time and material.
I agree. The testing procedure (bending) is not a valid test for your anticipated use case (compression).
So glad you are doing railway content again. It’s what brought me here years ago. It’s exciting watching the progress.
One final tip, you can make a phone call to your local area concrete facility, and ask them what mix they use building their concrete parking blocks/stops. Also since you need 500 of them, you might ask them what they would charge you to make parking block stops in your particular needed length, you might be surprised how much they are costing you to buy them in bulk.
Here in the states at least, those parking block/stops are about 6 feet in length, and have a hole about 8 inches in from each end that is used to drive rebar down into the ground to secure them.
They use pieces of very inexpensive thin walled plumbing pipe, inserted into the mold prior to adding the concrete, and those are simply left in place.
I would recommend to use a much drier mixture. It should have a consistency of wet sand that doesn't flow and you can build sand castles from. Build a simple vibrating table. If you need to see mine I can make a short video. You can pop them out of the form almost instantly.
Turbo Conquering Mega Eagle did a few videos on this for his concrete forms.
+1 to the drier is stronger idea.
Tim already has a vibrating table. It's his char coal mill.
Yes I also think he used too much water in the mixture. You always need to use the right amount of water for the amount of cement to make strong concrete. If you want the concrete to be thin, you need to use a lot more cement, so you can add more water.
If there is more water in the mixture than the amount of cement needs to cure, the excess of water stays in the cured concrete and makes it brittle.
I think the recycled plastic sleepers wil be the best option for most of it. Especially without a concrete mixer to do large batches.
I cast some 8 foot long slotted fenceposts and 4 foot "Godfathers" for my garden fencing 40 years ago using greased moulds and a vibrating table. Each one had two 6mm steel rods in it and they are still fine today. Your advice on the minimum water for the mix is important. I find normal concrete takes about a month to cure properly. You can remove them from the mould to cure after a couple of days but don't expect to use them for a few weeks. HLR Engineering, Rugby.
Hi Tim, we found old milking parlor wooden grids, made of some exotic hardwood, are often discarded by dairy farmers..cut up, they make low cost wooden rot free sleepers.
For some applications - wood is the best and often most affordable solution.
Love the railway, never stop!
The best thing about this channel is your honesty. You don't try to hide the things you got wrong. Instead you show us, and you explain what the mistake was. Whether that's so you hope we don't repeat the error, or more likely just because you know we want to see it all warts and all, it's just great that you show us what you did, rather than what TH-cam thinks we should see. :)
Concrete sleepers are normally 1.5 to 1.75 times larger than wooden sleepers.
Also, if you tried to place your pegs in the holes after the concrete has cured, then your sleepers will probably crack anyway.
But you still want concrete sleepers, then try placing your pegs in the form like before, except push the pegs all the way through and outside the form. Then weld two strips of rebar to the pegs. Then pour your concrete.
Try that
@5:40 - I wondered what the devil you were doing trying to drill that large a hole in wood with a hammer drill. That trick is flippin' brilliant, mate!
My Makita has a hammer only facility, so no rotation. Used it in the past when making footings for a small garden wall.
I agree. His method is great. I have used a reciprocating saw (Sawzall), without the blade, and it does a great job. If you have a small project with a form, I would think that a jigsaw would do the same.
@@brodystowers8092 bear in mind though that as the bubbles come up, the aggregates go down and you can get segregation with too wet a mix. fine though if you don't overdo it
It just shows to go how FANTASTIC wood is! It's strong! It's light! It works in tension or compression! It literally grows on trees!!!
At least you tried it out, cheers to exploration.
Dear inventor Tim.
👍👌👏 2) Using smooth pieces of a plastic gutter is quite ingenious. So no formwork oil is needed. For having a little bit thicker sleepers you could leave on what you've cut off with the table saw. It shouldn't hinder you pulling/sliding the slightly cured concrete bars out of the mold. Of course you could also grind the "hook" at both ends of the gutter flat. 3) You need to add more and specific fibres. Additionally you should not use such big pieces of gravel in the mix and have a dryer mix in general. As I already suggested last time, you can use recycled material coming from demolished houses etc. (better for the environment). 4) You can mix fast curing concrete so that you are able to take the sleepers out of the molds after one day, This would reduce the fabrication time to 50 days for making 500 sleepers.
Thanks a lot for making teaching explaining recording editing uploading and sharing.
Best regards luck and health in particular.
recycled material for demolished houses really isn't available here : - (
@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299
Not even recycled concrete?
Please experiment with metal sleepers Tim! A piece of sheet metal bent in a u shape similar to the gutter you were using will be light and easy, and the reduced peg material needed (since they would just need to be welded to the top rather than go all the way through a sleeper) would surely compensate for some of the cost. Best of luck with the farm, railway and weather!
thank you for all the detail on your rail design, i think this is a very good idea. you have far too much water in your concrete, this will severely impact strength, and quite likely fracture in the winter, because cured concrete is waterproof, and you will have trapped water in there, which will freeze, and break your concrete. good concrete should be wetted only just enough, and never more. ≈ i would suggest cutting 2 inch heavy hardware cloth (wire mesh) into strips, to make your rebars. but overall i think you are right, concrete is not the best solution for your application, and i look forward to hearing your findings on recycled plastic. very much wish i could be doing these things myself. maybe one day.
The concrete block was invented in Canada by a professor at Guelph. He was looking for a way to shape very dry concrete and the shape of the block let him apply pressure in a mould easily. A few years ago, I was in Africa and the local hardware store had the mould to make them. Then driving down the road, they were building a house - and the guys were making the blocks on site! Again, as you say, all about the barely damp mix. So, could someone come up with a mould that the sleepers pop out of ask soon as formed and they fry out of the mould, as is the case of blocks? You can go on line and see them making blocks by hand.
@@robinkirk3601 try kitchen parchment paper to line the moulds, perhaps? if possible, i would start with a backing board, drilled to match your peg holes, then line, rebar and slightly over fill your moulds upside down, then fit the pegs into the backing board, and then flip everything over, to cure in the upright position, resting on the backing board. i would also wrap the pegs in parchment, to make them easier to remove. i suggest you need to get the water mix exactly right, so it holds firm like a sand castle, and can be turned out immediately after moulding.
as to your recipe, i had look this up, and you may not like it, but you should be considering an elastic mix, comprising:
Portland Cement: 100 parts
Rubber powder: 3-8 parts
Fly ash: 20-50 parts
Silica fume: 5-20 parts
Fine aggregate: 200-300 parts
Coarse aggregate: 250-300 parts
Expanding agent: 5-15 parts (more optional)
Water reducer: 1.0-2.0 parts (more optional)
Defoaming agent: 0.001 part (more optional)
Water: 40-60 parts
your vibration technique is a good one, and will help.
the glass fibres are a good idea also.
i would suggest you look into steam curing - if you can get it to 50 to 80 C for a few days, you would be approaching full strength already.
use a heavy-gauge wire mesh, such as A393 reinforcing mesh with 10mm wires.
keep it wet for at least two weeks, to ensure a full cure.
Very interesting results. For a bit, I thought the fiber-based would be adequate.
My brain hurt at 4:56, as those fibers can literally get under your skin when handling. Similarly, that stuff can be inhaled and will wreak havoc with your lungs and airway.
Your videos are always informative and entertaining. Thank you!
You're a real life Wallace & Gromit.✌👍
He could definitely use the help of a Gromit partner!
@cpworld68 makes a good point. The guttering could be used as cast in situ formwork. 500 peices of gutter for youtr 500 sleepers. And cast the pegs into the concrete. You could even lay them out in the field and cast them in their final resting place. It would mean that you wouldn't be waiting for one batch to set before pouring the next
Ah great point, plus they would conform to the ground and have decent support
Support from Ganz-Mávag, Hungary. 🇭🇺🇮🇪
Wow! Thank you very much Zaks. I've never had a Hungarian Florint before - and now I have 20 : - )
Sad but it only worth 48.94€
Hello Tim, hope you survived the recent storm okay, 57kmh winds not fun, just got power restored today after being out since Friday evening. My only suggestion to the concrete sleeper after reading other excellent comments is to add SBR, this is usually done for water proofing or better adhesive but may help avoid cracking, or breaking. Its fairly cheap for 20 litre tub, might be worth a try perhaps in combination with other reinforcement such as rebar, this is something I hope to use come spring time as need to make a concrete septic tank cover, great tips from sgibbons, cheers
my polytunnel drying room blew apart! Apart from that we survived thanks : - )
*Concrete is King!*
1). Dryer mix (less water, or substitue a wetting agent).
2). Smaller aggregate (or none at all "only cement, sand, and glass fibers).
3). Cure in water.
Adding "nonferrous reinforcement" would be even better (fiberglass rods).
But you want cheap... "wood is cheap" but doesn't last (your labor isn't "free"). 🤔
I apriciate the video flow,keep up the good work
I read recently that the big railways have been going away from concrete sleepers already, they are not lasting the way they had expected.
I imagine they would last for ages in *your* application, but they definitely are slow to make.
You might use a *few* if you have places where the rail goes that are *unusually* more wet and sodden than the rest of the railway.
the concrete sleepers would be good in some places, anywhere that is excessively wet for example.
if you take the rail supports and weld them to a chunk of flat iron so its like |____|
then you use the bolt holes to hang the metal part way off the bottom of the sleeper then fill it in with the glass fiber concrete.
sure they would be a LOT of work but they should last quite a lot longer than wood.
the rail supports would also either need a cap or to be filled with concrete so they dont just hold water.
The concrete sleepers look minted but a lot of work to make. The engineer in me says concrete but the me doing the says timber for cost, speed, easy handling and mass production. You could have all them knocked up in a shift from wood including a coat of preservative. Sure the wood will rot out but it will be a gradual process and they won’t all fail at the same time, just part of maintenance. I’ll still watch you whatever material you use. All the best Tim.
Hello Tim,
In January 2023, MIT News published an article about Roman concrete. Extract:
"Historically, it had been assumed that when lime was incorporated into Roman concrete, it was first combined with water to form a highly reactive paste-like material, in a process known as slaking. But this process alone could not account for the presence of the lime clasts. Masic wondered: “Was it possible that the Romans might have actually directly used lime in its more reactive form, known as quicklime?”
Studying samples of this ancient concrete, he and his team determined that the white inclusions were, indeed, made out of various forms of calcium carbonate. And spectroscopic examination provided clues that these had been formed at extreme temperatures, as would be expected from the exothermic reaction produced by using quicklime instead of, or in addition to, the slaked lime in the mixture. Hot mixing, the team has now concluded, was actually the key to the super-durable nature.
“The benefits of hot mixing are twofold,” Masic says. “First, when the overall concrete is heated to high temperatures, it allows chemistries that are not possible if you only used slaked lime, producing high-temperature-associated compounds that would not otherwise form. Second, this increased temperature significantly reduces curing and setting times since all the reactions are accelerated, allowing for much faster construction.”
During the hot mixing process, the lime clasts develop a characteristically brittle nanoparticulate architecture, creating an easily fractured and reactive calcium source, which, as the team proposed, could provide a critical self-healing functionality. As soon as tiny cracks start to form within the concrete, they can preferentially travel through the high-surface-area lime clasts. This material can then react with water, creating a calcium-saturated solution, which can recrystallize as calcium carbonate and quickly fill the crack, or react with pozzolanic materials to further strengthen the composite material. These reactions take place spontaneously and therefore automatically heal the cracks before they spread. Previous support for this hypothesis was found through the examination of other Roman concrete samples that exhibited calcite-filled cracks.
To prove that this was indeed the mechanism responsible for the durability of the Roman concrete, the team produced samples of hot-mixed concrete that incorporated both ancient and modern formulations, deliberately cracked them, and then ran water through the cracks. Sure enough: Within two weeks the cracks had completely healed and the water could no longer flow. An identical chunk of concrete made without quicklime never healed, and the water just kept flowing through the sample. As a result of these successful tests, the team is working to commercialize this modified cement material."
Google Roman concrete. David L. Chandler | MIT News Office Publication Date:January 6, 2023.
One trick I've used for cutting plastic with a rotary power saw is to turn the blade (fine tooth is best) around so the teeth face backwards. It'll still cut the plastic but will be far less prone to chipping the plastic along the cut.
I think you made an important point about time to make them, they may not be a good option for all the sleepers, but next time you have some left over concreate you could make a few so it doesn't go to waste, even if you dont have a use for them at that time, as they wont rot they can sit around getting stronger until you need them.
Jim Y again, the concrete panels I made were 2.5" thick, just short of 4' long and 8" wide.
I used cut pieces of welded wire fencing for reinforcement and have had very little breakage.
I also used a much drier mix, I mixed it wet then mixed in more concrete till I had a nice dry mix - just short of being hard to work.
I like those rain gutter molds, could you sand or plane that lip off instead of cutting it? It would leave the molds a tiny bit thicker. More molds means faster production - but I'm going to leave that up to you to figure out.
Another possibility is going with mostly cheap wood sleepers this year and replace them with concrete as needed. Speaking of wood sleepers soaking wood in used motor oil makes it very rot resistant. I made a set of 4 wheel chocks out of 4" x 4" cutoffs and soaked them in oil for 3 days more than ten years ago, they still show little wear and zero rot. After a couple of weeks they stopped leaving traces of oil around. Jim Y
Well even if it doesn't work, they look really pretty 😍. I think it turned out great!!!
Waited for carrying on with railways videos so much!
In the states we have solid plastics for garden bolder rails, and they are 8 foot long and the same size your home made one.
Well, definitely worth the wait. Very fascinating research. I kind of wonder how chicken wire may have worked if it were put into the concrete mix. I know it's used in a lot of professional concrete work when rebar is too big. I'm placing my bet on the prefab plastic sleepers.
you should use the concrete ones for the junctions.
Hi all good advice below. the only thing i would add is you can buy deeper guttering of the shelf[ or blag it in your case] and i would keep the sleepers damp once they have set as it continues the hardening process, it will stop if they dry out.
I think you have a proven way of making the sleepers with the pegs into either wood or plastic. The slotted idea seems a bit fanciful for your situation. I like the idea of recycled plastic but, if memory serves me, I think it was quite a job to produce at scale. Great idea though. I think the timber is the simplest and easiest option. I loved the use of guttering to cast the sleepers but it would have taken you an age to make enough of them. I always find your videos so interesting. 😊👍
Continuing with the proposal of your design, you could use the gutters in their maximum length that come distributed and subdivide them inside with cardboard or plastic cards cut with the shape of the same, and it would make it possible to make many more than one cement pour.
Could I suggest cutting up Rockwall insulation & dropping a good handful into your cemet mix as it works really well as a rebar supplement and strengthens the cement loads for next to no cost
Hey Tim i use a drill bit designed for dirt to mix concrete in a bucket.
$10-$20.
Garden drill bits about 1 1/2" or 2" work very well.
Spin backwards to mix the corners of the bucket.
I always love an update from you. I have always wanted a railway of my own and it's nice to see you can do it cheaply
you could make sleepers in whole gutter lengths and after a couple of days saw them in the right length. That way you could experiment with pre-tensioning far easier.
Maybe a proper concretemixer adds to the quality of the concrete
That fiberglass sleeper looks like the one you need, as it would easily withstand the forces it would get under your railroad usage and would not be subject to that load you put on it to failure. I think you missed that. You already have the solution but are thinking way too much about the required strength. Anyway, I really enjoy your videos. Please keep them coming!!
We're all here to see Tim's Railroad, not yours Pal..
@@brianbenson1973 aye and no one is here to read your comments, don’t need you white knighting every comment.
I'm glad you tried, Tim! If you had not, you would have always wondered "what if" and you've but that one to bed. I remember seeing some TH-cam videos on them building concrete sleepers for full-sized railroads and making sure they were under tension (for strength). That would be the ticket, but in your case, wood would be better. Easier and most likely cheaper! Now if only you had an unlimited supply of timber you could use your wood mill (if you still have all the parts) to cut your own wooden sleepers! Keep up the fight - regards to Sandra from Annie and Sam 😊
Thanks Sam - yes, experimenting is always interesting but it doesn't always lead to progress!
I like the tarp mixer, and the backwards drill shaker.
Better rebar would help if u cn get it cheap. Scrap 11kv cable perhaps?
Glad you're back on the railway!
There is a proces to reduce the curing of time of concrete called "schokbeton" (it's dutch). It is used in the mass production of concrete parts.
As others have said... less water! Also could you use old fibreglass tent poles as reinforcement? At the end of festival season there are hundreds of tents abandoned. Charities collect and recycle them.... might be a cheap source. Also you could have a rotation system with 3 sets of the moulds, so you don't tie up a set for three days at a time.
Though if the concrete route really is a no goer, can you 'pickle' the timber ones in used engine oil to preserve them?
I've wanted to make a rail like yours for so long now. When I retire in 3 years I'm off to the land to try.
Outstanding Concrete Informative Video 👍🧐👌Cheers 🍻
I know some comments were made about the reinforcement and such as well as the concrete mix and how much water is involved. Personally I worked construction paving roads and there the HUGE thing was making sure you had a solid base. The sleepers on the ground will always be in compression naturally, so remember that when you are testing. Also instead of removing the posts I would suggest taking a piece of reinforcement bar and drill holes in the pegs for it to slide in to or weld it to the pegs at the correct distance, just be careful welding galvanized steel the zinc coating will create a nasty gas fume that will make you sick or worse...
I actually plan to cast concrete panels that are 6' long 3.5" thick and 12" tall with holes in the ends for rebar to slide through to build some fence panels and what I have said about the grid is exactly what I am going to do. Basically when I build the form there will be a dowel to hold the pipe in place where needed and then the rebar will get welded in and a welded grid will be formed in between. Once the panels are made the ends will be staggered so they key together and the fence can be constructed. I tested if it would work by making some headstones for Halloween that I put in my front yard (still waiting for someone to try to steal one or kick one, hehehehehe) and two years later they are in great shape.
Since you need the pegs anyway may as well cast them in place with the holes already drilled in the top so all you have to do is drop a sleeper down onto the grade and bolt the rails on. The only place that will not work is where you will be creating a switch of some sort but even then you already know the lengths you need and can custom build those or rely on wood for the sleepers where you have points.
Also for a release agent we used a mix of oil and kerosene or diesel on our forms so they were easier to strip off since it could be sprayed on with a garden sprayer.
If you want to cut thin plastic with a table saw, use a fine tooth plywood blade and install the blade in backwards.
one thing to note about concrete soon as you get them out of the mold put them onto the moist ground or into the wetter areas concrete loves water to cure in an makes it harder used oil on the molds to help them let go of the concrete
Regardless of whether your concrete was the right mix or not Tim, time must be a factor, you'll be an old man by the time you get 500 of those concrete sleepers made!, why not just go with doug fir 2x4s charred and accidently exposed to some old engine oil !!!!!, could have them all made in a few days, done, ready to lay track! Still those concrete ones did look nice! and with a bit of tinkering (less wet mix, higher strength mix, smaller aggregate, one piece of 3/8'' rebar and Bob's your uncle) they would be strong enough! Keep up the good work. Cheers
Keep with the pegs! They secure the rail without having to cut a cross section, are reusable and easily disassembled as you have done before. Wood or plastic can be redrilled for needed changes, and will be much lighter than concrete. You can also knock out a lot of wood and plastic parts without having to wait for curing time! No flexibility with concrete. Plastic and wood are the most reliable and simplest solution. If it aint broke, don't fix it! Best wishes!
To improve durability and reduce cracking, consider adding cheap polypropylene fibers (0.6-1.8 kg per cubic meter of concrete) to control shrinkage. Graphene powder (0.01-0.1% of the cement weight) would be another option for extra strength and density, but is currently sadly extremely costly, even tho tiny amounts of Graphene could make the sleepers tougher and more resistant to weathering.
For curing, keep the sleepers covered with a wet cloth or plastic sheet to maintain moisture-old towels or even a tarp work well as cost-effective options. This will help prevent surface cracks and ensure maximum strength. Looking forward to seeing the finished track!
Just use wood, been used on trains since they were invented. The wood can be preserved in a variety of methods. Used motor oil, tar all kinds of chemicals, but for fence posts we used to just char them. I've pulled fence post up from 30 years ago and they are still good but rotted where there was no charring
I would cast the pegs into the sleepers. The advantage is that they are stuck and will not come off as easily. How about welding them to the reinforcement before the concrete?
I would too.
Instead of a hole in the mould, have a pair of bolts only slightly thinner than the hole in the peg. That way they’d be vertical
@@davefrench3608 or simply embed a falt iron with a 90° bent into the mix
I wonder if you could run the wire through small holes in the wooden forms at the end of each mold, tighten the wire (really tight), and thus create pre-stressed concrete. This is basically what is done for the overpasses on freeways.
You could speed things up by making the molds double (triple, quadruple) length, and then cutting them. I don't know if you can get away with using a normal type saw if you cut them before they are fully cured.
Oh, I had hopes for these.
Is there a way to dig a trench and mold them in place in the ground? then you wouldn't have to worry about the weight to transport them or the amount of molds.
I think it was a good experiment.
Thank you for sharing.
Fascinating video! My first thought is why can't you just cast the rail pegs straight into the concrete, why do you need to cast a separate hole? I am pretty sure that not all commercial concrete sleepers use prestressed reinforcement, in fact I was a little surprised that the straight concrete one broke so easily because it should be relatively evenly supported by the ground and concrete should only break like that if it bends a lot or if there is a problem with the mix. I am wondering if maybe there was too much water in your concrete mix, concrete is strongest when there is just enough water to wet the cement and all of the aggregate and your concrete looked pretty soupy. In any case I think that one or two thin pieces of commercial rebar towards the bottom of the sleeper would prevent it from cracking that way, and I think that the wire was just too flexible to really help.
I also agree with some other commenters that using fibers should be the strongest by far, but I think that fiber reinforced concrete uses a lot more fibers than you were using. Sometimes FRC uses glass fibers and sometimes it uses metal fibers, think that metal might distribute more easily... maybe you could DIY something by using a bunch of wire nails or something like that? Or maybe it's pretty cheap to buy commercially, I'm not really sure. The entire mix definitely needs to be heavily saturated with whatever fibers you use to really work properly though.
In terms of needing many moulds to make enough sleepers, what about making a longer mold and buying a cheap concrete saw to cut them to length afterwards / during the curing process?
Loved the idea of using a hammer drill to consolidate the concrete!
I think I in joy watching your videos 😊
Take those bits of pipe you used for the mold and weld a bit of flat bar or two small pieces of rebar in between.
Set that into the concrete
Ever thought of steel sleepers? Some railways use them. And it would be easy to make. Steel is strong in pull force.
But expensive i think. I would just stick to wood 😂
I love your voice..reminds me of ivor the engine
Concrete sleepers? Sound like your making some high speed rail!
Well, i heard there ain't no speed limit on the line he's laying!
@ fact
Actually a fair amount of miniture railways use them too because of how long they last and the long term savings in maintenence and repairs that result. One I volonteered at cut up old concrete fence posts that had been gifted to them.
I can't help feeling concrete is probably the best option. Wood is not viable unless you treat it with something nasty and who wants to bury a ton of plastic in their ground. Here's an idea. Make your moulds so that the posts go all the way though which saves you the step of removing them and refitting. Drill holes in the posts so that a bit below half way down the sleeper you can add a rod of rebar - I has to be at the bottom of the sleeper. Ideally the bar should be in tension but it'll still work as long as it's in the correct place. Make the sleeper deeper (vertical dimension) it'll be stronger.
You own a welder! Tack on a stick of #2 rebar to both pegs and cast the pegs in place. You already have the holes in the mold the pegs just need to be out further, so the rails attach after the cure. Oversize pre-drill the holes even. Pop it out of the mold and ready to go. As far as the cure time, if you can handle them you can place them and attach the rail, then wait.... The biggest problem I can see with the test is with the mix. You will need a mixer. And a recipe for strong concrete. Here in the states it's bags of quickcrete for ease. But you can make it yourself with portland cement, not lime, sand and gravel. The first sleeper was due to a poor mix.
That last test mold, did you use scotch? Instead of water
Years ago, my brother-in-law bought used pallets that were made from recycled plastic and used the parts to make a small deck and some deck furniture. Maybe there is something similar you could source in Ireland for cheap and turn the plastic planking into sleepers?
if the wires work Ok, you ought to consider using barbed wire as the barbs should engage the concrete better than smooth wire.
that's a good idea!
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 One other thought... I you fill the molds partially and then press another form into the center to displace some of the concrete between the rods, you should be able to reduce the amount of concrete by 10 to 15 percent. I know you were showing how easily you could break them as you did, but in service they would not be loaded in the center like that. Also the depression in the center would allow the sleeper to "key" into the ground or ballast and reduce latteral movement on the bends.
Maybe run the mold stock through the saw cup down, with the blade on the inside of the cup.
Have you ever heard the American railroad term Gandy dancer? You might enjoy their music.
Some modifications that could be done.
1. A sleepers length of re-bar should add all the strength needed. (Any job site would properly have what is needed as scrap)
2. Use wood not plastic forms. (Scrap wood work just fine - again job sites as source)
3. Wood dowels for the hols instead of pipes. Just drill them out when the concrete is cured.
4. Make the forms square. Then you can set them side by side and only need on length of plank for each sleeper.
In this way make all the sleepers needed for each section you build in one go.
Couple thoughts
With concrete you could cast in the pipes and leave them
Fiber re-enforced looked pretty good
What about fiber and post-tensioning with a piece of rebar that's threaded on one end? (would need to cast in a hole or use a pvc pipe in place.
Could use angle iron as slippers, if you use it as rail's too, then you can drop the peg, and just use a bolt to connect them. Just like you slimmed down the rail, from propper real railroad profile, you can also slim down the slippers. You mostly need to have the fixed distance between the two rails, and don't need much more, it's overkill to have real sleeper's, like the old mining carts carrying ton's of ore in the past.
It's a common practice as a quick/temporary fix on real railroads. They are small, relatively light, easy to make, move and install.
If your lucky, then the scrapyard has a pile of old galvanized fence posts or something similar.
Hope this helps, full steam ahead.
try using drill spirals or lathe turning just like the glass fiber
I'm not sure I can explain this idea very well. But what about making your molds from old pallet wood, and just leaving them together with the concrete in the middle acting as a filler? Would that have any advantage economically and time savings for construction? You could still weave wire through the wood box, even tightening it some way for tensil strength. Or use rebar as suggested below. Just a thought.
Thanks for posting Tim
Hello Tim! This was a very interesting video for sure! As i was watching, I wondered - do you think it would work to cast the pegs into the sleepers, that they would be permanently fixed in the concrete? I suppose this would take some extra setup time for each cast to place the pegs just right so they cure in the right place. If the pegs were permanent, I also wondered if it would work to stretch that metal wire between the two pegs, if you're looking to get some metal under tension in there.
Wonderful video as always! Hello from Canada!
You could stretch it with a bottle jack. And it's often done with cable not rebar
You could use logs as sleepers, cut in half lengthwise, round side up.
Looks like wood, is the best for now. How is the wood holding up from the rail that been set so far?
You can accelerate concrete hardening by wetting sleepers, putting them into an airtight container and gas them with CO2. Concrete hardens by absorbing water and CO2. As for the binding material, try wool or flax instead of glas-fiber.
Honestly ....depends on the prices that come with anything you buy but, the plastic ones sure seem like overall they have the best of every world ..... not that the world needs more plastic but, they would withstand your enviornment being wet a lot better concrete wouldn't be very cost effecient and wood works but treating it would be a must for long use . It's your budget and time so go with what works for you ! I know you'll do great !
the fibres used in mixes (think they called duron) are more like hard sticks than soft fibres, way stronger than steel mesh. we used to have bag of them you just added in. they mix loads easier. check out tom lamb lastest vid towards the end, he been using them
thanks - I wonder if they're available here though..
@ they available added to lorry ready mix so probably. try your local concrete ready mix company
Tim, i think that there wouldn't be any real benefit to pre-tensioned reinforcement in your 15" centre to centre sleepers. But just adding 2 pieces of rebar with decent cover would be enough to provide tensile strength for the sleeper to not break under load. Alternatively, Jamie mantzel has shown that nylon rope can be used successfully for concrete reinforcement.
Great video and yes concrete is to costly !
Maybe add one piece of rebar, cut to the length of the sleeper, along with the glass fibers? Rebar is never under tension when a concrete slab is poured - the rebar is wired together to form a grid of sorts. So I think that you don't require tension in your application as your sleepers are short in length. I still think the plastic ties are the best bang-for-money, as they are fast to make, last a long time, and they take plastic out of the waste-stream.
Place a bit of rebar in between the two holes, it is not as strong as if it were the whole length but it would be a decent solution.
I used to work in coal mines in Kent, UK. We had narrow gauge track underground, which had wood sleepers in good ground areas, but steel mostly elsewhere, similar profile to your guttering, but up the other way. Any thoughts on this?
4:36 the fiberglass is the way to go! 😎👍
What about a hybrid approach? You could use mass-produced concrete blocks for the ground contacts, with a wooden tie to hold the rails to each other and to the bricks. Perhaps the recycled plastic could be made in sheet form and placed atop the wood as a "roof" to make them last longer.
I wonder if you would be able to fire your own bricks using that charcoal furnace you made a while ago, that might work out a slight cheaper than concrete perhaps?
If aesthetics are not an issue, you could pour a continuous concrete base (essentially a sidewalk) rather than individual sleepers.
When cutting PVC like your gutter, use a cheap hollow ground blade, and install it in reverse. This is how people that install PVC siding cut the material. Process the part as normal, but the reversed blade will not catch the plastic and rip it out.
Could you push a piece of rebar into the concrete after it’s poured?
hello if you make the pegs ready to fit them on the rail weld them together with two rods stick them trough the mould . pour the concrete . , this makes it a lot stronger .