Same. I follow Mormonism because while all religion is bogus, Mormonism was clearly started by a perverted man who wanted to bang a bunch of chicks…and yet Mormons look at you like you’re the crazy one 😂 I’m amazed by the cult that is Mormonism. 🇺🇸
For the record there is nothing wrong with having a creative mind and "creating" a new language and crafting an epic story involving it and embedding philosophical and ethical ideas in that story ... see also: the Lord of the Rings. The problem is when you lie about your fiction being real and use it to take money from others, embed a bunch of racism in your story, and eventually leverage your notoriety into having secret sex with lots of vulnerable women (and some underage girls) all under false pretenses. Just sayin' Edit: posted while watching... little did I know that the hosts would end up make these very points ... great minds and all.
This is one of my favorite episodes yet! Like Nemo, I'm big into linguistics and have toyed around with making my own languages as well, for my creative works. One way the BOM sounds "fakey" to me is the names he uses. Names like "Moroni" and "Nephi" and "Laman" sound, let's say, "Old Testa-mish." But as a Jewish person who reads the Tanakh (analogous to the Christian OT, but from Hebrew manuscripts instead of Greek ones) in Hebrew as well as English, those names sound like jibberish. Names that end in the letter i have a long vowel pronunciation In Hebrew: for example, "Malachi" is pronounced "Mah-la-khee" - so when I first read the names "Nephi" and "Lehi" I pronounced them "Ney-phee" and "Ley-hee"! Hebrew names are often made from phrases - for example: "Michael" literally means, "Who is like God (El)?" and "Isaiah"/"Yeshayahu" means "YHVH is salvation." Most names ending in "iah/yah" refer to "YHVH". But Joseph Smith's names don't feel like they lead back to any real linguistic tradition, Biblically speaking. They seem like names made by a guy who has read the English version of the Christian Old Testament a lot.
@@johnmichaelson9173I had the exact same thoughts when I was first introduced to Mormonism as a teenager. How can anyone believe this? Josephs scams are so obvious
@@Whocaress700 Exactly, I'm English & I mean no offence to Missouri but I LMAO when I heard Joseph Smith said Eden was in Daviees County Missouri. 😂I don't know how he kept a straight face.
@@johnmichaelson9173 i was 17 years old when my parents moved to Utah. We moved for work purposes, and we knew nothing about Mormons and their history. So like any ppl new to Utah, you get missionaries at your door every week. At first we would be nice and listed to what they had to say. I’m so happy and proud of my parents. My dad is a history nut and loves learning about ancient Hebrew culture. So on the very first day the Mormons showed up we already saw all the mistakes. my dad asked missionary how can y’all use the word “ Christ” which is Greek in origin 600 years before Greece conquered the Middle East?
@@johnmichaelson9173 I’m even more puzzled about non USA converts. Like wtf, how can anyone from another country fall for this? It’s so American centric.
I'm English myself & it's just pure cringe hearing this fantastical nonsense. At best I'm thinking Smith was worried about remembering these word's so he went with simple but stupid. Other than that, how could these people not be in total hysterics on hearing Smith's bs answers?
One of your best videos so far. Well done. JS got away with so much from 1830-1844 because his translations could not be checked at the time. He could not do it today. As JD said, by the end of the 1820's JS needed a new idea. He had to find a 'new gig'. He was a creative man, accustomed to telling tales and digging for treasure. His new venture combined all of his skills, enabling him to start a religion and attract a following. We will never know if the LDS church would have had the success it did if it were not for a masterful Brigham Young taking over and leading the majority to Salt Lake City, where there was no opposition. Without BY, I don't think Mormonism would have become what it is today.
They should've changed LDS to LSD because as far as I'm concerned Joseph Smith inventing all this utter nonsense he must've been tripping outta his tiny mind.
I hope and pray all your information will reach and open many eyes and many ears to the truth....it is the truth that sets one free. And everyone deserves to be free.
It's also odd that it never occurred to Joseph Smith or any of the witnesses to simply do basic rubbings on the engraved plates to literally make a carbon copy of the characters on several plates. Of course there never really were any engraved plates. But just to play along with Joseph Smith's claim that there were, it seems like one of the most obvious things he could do to provide some additional evidence of his "Reformed Egyptian" engravings would be to either make rubbings (the way that people do with old tombstones) or lightly roll some ink onto one of the plates and then press a piece of paper onto it. They were engravings. Those are simple things that you can do with engravings.
Thank you all so much for all the work you put in,you have been a tremendous aid to me as I have deconstructed my faith in the mormon church. You have and are helping me navigate one of the hardest experiences I have had in my life(and trust me that is saying a lot). Just know you are making a big difference!!!!
The pure adamic language part of the episode was my favorite. My wife and I were dying. You would think that Mormonism would have jumped the shark at that point.
John Taylor was a translator. The French version of the "Book of Mormon" ("le Livre de Mormon") was translated by him. Unfortunately, it is really hard to read, and has some odd contours (like the use of the sorry-that's-not-a-French-word "la repentance" instead of the proper French term "le repentir" for English "repentance".) The modern French translations of the Bible are beautiful and poetic in a way that the French Book of Mormon only wishes it could be. But we will never get a better one, because the one we have was translated by John Taylor.
57:42--"coming through a rock and a hat"--it was literally a Laff-out-loud moment--it deserved at least six repeats... If the play "Book of Mormon" ever gets an updating, I hope somebody somewhere will have heard this line.....it's too good to be forgotten.
Mike trying to offer serious critque about the pure Adomic language while John and Nemo are dying of laughter (silently in Nemo's case) is just fantastic
John's lack of knowledge about beer is wholesome as heck! Pale ales are common everywhere. I'm Canadian and don't drink anymore but I love beer and am legitimately watching this drinking a local nonalcoholic pale ale!
Got a good belly laugh about "Dan the Tapir". The rest of the video is laid out in a logical format. Whenever I hear this informaiton, I can't help but think of Samuel Clemen's "Huckleberry Finn" where he and Jim run into two con artists claiming to be a Duke and a Dauphin. The way that Joseph Smith deceives his followers has the same spirit. It is amazing how so many people could be so deceived for so many years. It is a testament to the trusting and gullible nature of human beings. But then, the church was based and maintained on what I see as a pattern of deceit, which it has perpetrated for decades. Now that this information is available online, more and more people are seeing the truth. And "the truth will make you free".
Check out the recent Mormonism Live episode about the impact Dartmouth played with Hyrum Smith getting educated there and other fascinating tidbits of information.
WOW..!! My favourite 3 podcasters of all time showing irrefutable evidence that the BOM is fraudulent.. !!! MY HEROES...!!! Geez, in my ignorant days, I was an early morning Seminary Teacher teaching absolutely lies. Thanks John, I remember those 'sacred' words. 'pay, lay, ale' in the temple of all places.... ROFL..
Even when I was a believing member who loved the Pearl of Great Price, I had trouble swallowing all of it. The part about Adam as an old man and the Adamic language never really sat right with me.
@@mormonstories I absolutely adore your content and the work you put into it is out of this world. You deserve a million subs. I know how hard it is and you don't cut any corners. Thank you for your commitment and your steadfastness
When you guys was talking about Adan’s language it was funny 😅😅😅 really I had a very nice moment. You guys amazing! Anyways I’m not Mormon anymore, and you’re known all the process to deconstructed all that crap you know! But I’m still Christian and love Jesus❤. God blesses you guys ❤
The missionaries showed up to my door today. A neighbor sold me out telling them I was an inactive member. Suggestions on how to confront my neighbor and make it clear to the church I'm never coming back?
Tell your neighbor to mind their own business and tell your neighbor to shut up about telling the Mormons Snake Oil Sales Man about things regarding yourself.
Colby Townsend also talks about how problematic it is to have the Tora in the BoM. Like, the Tora didn’t exist in 600 BC, so there wasn’t anything for Nephi to go get in Jerusalem.
I laughed when John was describing the adamic language for the prayer because as a Brit (and nevermormon) I heard it as "pale ale" and raised my eyebrow at it, before Nemo explained it 😆
I don't think it was based on "pale ale" but "pay lay ale" could be "peh le'el" which does mean something in Hebrew. It's not far fetched he was able to get a Hebrew phrase.
Linguist here (but not specialized in what you're looking for ^)! The search for an Adamic language was a long trend in Western Europe from the middle ages through the early modern period! I think Mormons are probably the only group that is behind that theory to this day though. The idea of Adamic language was often paired with the search for Eden and Utopia. Also! Adamic language is often linked to Glossolalia or "speaking in tongues" (which is also disproven by modern linguistics ;) ) and/or Angelic Language! Finally, I think there was another "language" called Enochian in the 16th century (????) that was "revealed" through scrying, but I can't remember the guy's name that did that. Scrying is about as credible as a stone in a hat, right?
When I was on my mission, I compared the text common between the JST and BoM and was troubled by its problems. Why does the BoM match the KJV more tightly than the JST? Isn't the JST supposed to be how it was originally written?
I would answer to the Joseph Smith admitting in court that it was all a fraud, "that our law has no power over a man for his beliefs, therefore Joseph pretended to preach according to his beliefs." jS pretty much projected himself into that part of the book of Mormon. He wasn't a fraud if he didn't admit he was. That's a great insight from Nemo.
I think your program is brilliant . I am Scottish and here is a well known prayer in Scots Wir Faither in Hivin, Yir name be keepit in awe, Yir ring begin, in the warld as in Hivin. Gie us ilk day wir breid for the day, An forgie whit we are awin tae Yirsel, As we forgie ithers whit is awin tae us. An dinna trachle us sairly, but free us frae the Deil; fur the Croun is yir ain An the micht an the glory Warld upon warld. Sae be it. Imagine if Joseph Smith could translate things into Scots. Kind regards, Graham.
Speaking of the pure and undefiled Adamic language, let's not forget about Adam-ondi-Ahman. Apparently it means "Adam on the...God!" (assuming that the "Ahman" here is just a different spelling of "Awmen". Supposedly, Adam-ondi-Ahman is supposed to be a sacred altar of some kind used by Adam. Allegedly, according to some traditions, Eve asked Adam where to place the lambs for burnt offerings. Adam said: "Put dem on di Ahman Altar" (because sometimes Adam spoke like he was Amish, as a foreshadowing of the holy order of beards without mustaches). Then Eve tried to explain to Abel one day what the pile of rocks was and why she kept killing Abel's pet lambs and throwing them on top of that particular pile of rocks. "Abel, we put your pet lambs on that pile of rocks because Adam said to put dem on di Ahman altar". Abel was still quite young and did his best to remember. When his little sister Elayal asked him about the pile of rocks, Abel tried to explain it the way Eve had, but could only remember to say: "Adam...on di...Ahman".
The characters that the Church has been using in their recent videos on the plates look to me like they're heavily based on the Paleo Hebrew and Phoenician alphabets. They're trying to make them look more authentic and plausible.
2 more things: I think any similarity to the English alphabet, which Nemo pointed out, is due to how the Latin alphabet emerged from these more ancient, Semitic languages, and not because the Church wanted to preserve any of the English that Joseph was borrowing. Second, I don't know who they got to work on this, but I'd bet a lot of money (which I don't have) that any one of my BYU ANES professors could/would have suggested the change. I personally know the Church consults them often, as I worked with a professor who helped to develop the CFM OT curriculum and who also gave guided tours to the Q12 when the DSS exhibit came to SLC. 🙃
Our family descends from Alexander Neibaur and our family history is that Alexander also gave Joseph Smith Hebrew lessons. Idk if it would have been before, after or at the same time as Joshua Seixas.
Question** If JS did make up the book of mormon and made his own plates, why would he fall for men digging up an ancient record in the ground when he shouldve known that these guys were just trying to trick him? JS would have been clever enough to try and figure that out right? He would have known there was no ancient records buried anywhere around because he knew he made the whole story up? So why did he try and translate the kinderhook plates?
Well, there's a range of possibilities. For one thing, he had built himself up as having the "gift of translation". In fact that was the original main claim that served as the foundation for his role as a religious leader. So he had a significant reputation concern. When presented with ancient engraved plates found in the ground and presented to him, appealing to him on the basis of his self-proclaimed power to translate ancient records, he would have been in a tricky spot. He wouldn't have necessarily known that the Kinderhook plates were fake (even if he suspected). His own tale about the golden plates was based on generally held beliefs about an ancient civilization having been in the area. He got mileage out of it because it seemed plausible to many people. Even though Joe would have known in his own case that he was making stuff up, he probably would have nonetheless believed that it was possible that such ancient plates could actually exist somewhere. Without certainty as to whether the Kinderhook plates were genuine or fake, he would not have been able to confidently declare them to be fake, lest he subsequently be contradicted by "experts". Plus, there is no evidence that Joe created any fake plates that would have looked genuine to anyone, which is why he would have always kept them hidden or under a cloth covering. His fakery was apparently very crude, consisting only of putting together something metallic that could be hefted, but not visually inspected. The Kinderhook plates on the other hand, were a much more sophisticated forgery.
I am am with the church I converted in 2021 I do have my doubts and trying real hard to believe but at the same time I know that Joseph Smith is a fraud...I didn't know that it would take so long to remove my membership...so my Bishop has my resignation letter..so I may go ahead and let him process it...but at the same time I still would like to figure out more of this religion...so any advice...
@@markkrispin6944 ok thank you...I did email the Bishop to process my resignation letter...I know it's well worth it to leave..and finally be free..they are very convincing..but I finally am glad to wake up from the Mormon dream...
I've always heard that the reformed Egyptian edition of the book of Mormon was seen as a mistake by the church and efforts were made to destroy those in it's immediate possession
Something I've never understood about JS translations and the 'restoring' of lost and important truths taken from the bible was why JS never added back or put back any of the scriptural texts taken out of the bible by the catholic church in the 17th century (can't remember exactly when), but somehow just kept finding these 'lost' works like papyri. I remember when I learned about the fact that there was a gospel of mary magdala and feeling SO ROBBED!!!
Finally getting to listen more... the Pale Ale thing is probably from Hebrew. Something pronounced like "peh l'el" would mean "mouth to God," so like "from my mouth to God's ears" sort of a thing, but not grammatically specific at all.
Sincere question: if Joseph Smith didn't translate the Book of Mormon, and only referenced other books (KJV Bible, View of the Hebrews, The First Book of Napoleon) how did he actually go about writing his book with his scribes? Did he read straight from those books and change names? Did he write it all out first, then read from that? Genuinely curious to know your theory.
@Chris Bartlett - We’ve covered the “how the Book of Mormon was written” topic several times on a Mormon Stories with multiple experts! Have you searched the back catalogue at all?
@@mormonstories when I wrote that comment one year ago, I was literally one month into my faith transition. I had only just discovered MormonStories. I felt like everything I’d known was falling apart. I’ve grown a lot in the last year, and much of that is thanks to Mormonstories. You never know what a person is going through and when.
While listening to this episode, I received an email from a nephew who is on his mission. He stated that while visiting a woman prospect, one missionary could speak German (women's 1st language) so my nephew tried to use Google translate to keep in the conversation. Google came up with Isreal Bazooka. Needless to say, Google and Joseph Smith had the same results. Neither Google or JS could achieve the correct translations. 😂 I wanted to tell my nephew this joke, but know one day he will wise up.
This isn't video related but as I've learned more about non-mormon Christians I see dominance of Paul. Maybe you could have Sandra Tanner talk about why Mormons don't see Paul in the same way.
I doubt that they can back that characterization up with any kind of logic, facts or substance of any kind. It doesn't cost anything and takes no effort to call something a "sham". It's just a label with no adhesive.
Yes, it's a ridiculous talking point that they can't win. No names like Gee and Muhlestein don't have the credentials or credibility to discredit the world's foremost authority on Books of Breathings.
Looked it up. First known use of pale ale was in 1703 and apparently was in common use by 1780. It is a term he would have known. Also I was hearing fake wannabe hebrew with the "Adamic" language but couldn't make it out. lol
1:15:59 you need a conlanger linguist- someone who 'invents' constructed languages. I'm a linguist. My two cents is that JS was so poor at this because he and the people around him lived in an ‘English only' society. Nothing to do with language trees.
I can play tech videos, graduate school videos, etc. at higher speeds, but when Mike is on it's normal speed only:) That was so interesting/fun, I swear I'd go back to church if they voted John, Mike, and Nemo in as First Presidency and voted all other officers as now constituted out!! 😁
At what point does the leadership recognize this doesn't work? Was it B.H. Roberts? A lot of these guys are pretty smart. When did they figure it out, but it just made sense to perpetuate what certainly looks like a con?
wow... wow. this is very solid evidence that he just completely made it up, and didn't even do a very good job. Those characters that the church made up for the "now you know" videos looks a lot like chinese (which i have studied). i recognize a few characters that look very much like ancient chinese characters (more crude than the modern ones but still recognizable).
Pale ales originated when british soldiers were traveling to India and they wanted a beer that lasted longer in barrels on ships. They are called IPAs or Indian Pale Ales
Why does the BOM (the most correct book) resemble the KJV (an imperfect book) not the JST (a revelation of Joseph Smith's)? That makes no sense at all.
While not mormon, I find these presentations intriguing. It's difficult to come away with much other than Joseph Smith was a broken and pitiful man who deceived many.
Rather than a linguist, you need to recruit Dr Justin Sledge of the Esoterica channel to have a discussion about the "Caractors" and other translations. He would be able to deep dive into any material that would have been available to Joseph Smith at the time and it's entire history: th-cam.com/video/7dhz4GR2yio/w-d-xo.html He's also mentioned Smith ("peep Stone Joe") in a "Treasure Magic" episode before. I'm sure he has deep grasp on all the "folk magic" of the day: th-cam.com/video/H4jychtyrho/w-d-xo.html
I try not to always be grammar police: but you all spent many minutes of Pay Lay Ale and how great it is. First of all the words were Pe le-El; El was Hebrew for God as in Emmanuel (God with us) Samuel (God has sent) Elijah (Yahweh is my God)...Elohim (God of the highest); **Note: many bibical names incorporated "El into their names e.g. Michael, Elizabeth, Elisha, Azriel, etc... The temple ceremony was created after/during Joseph Smith learning Hebrew so Pe le-El means mouth to God in Hebrew; So when we were saying "Pey le-El" or Oh God hear the words of my Mouth; it was actually Hebrew, not Adamic.
I don't think anyone in this discussion is mistakenly thinking that "pay lay ale" is actually Adamic...or that such a thing as the "pure Adamic" language even exists. The point is that Mormons for generations were taught and believed that it was Adamic. Of course you are likely correct that it would actually have come from Hebrew words that Joseph Smith had learned around the time that the ceremony was created. But that fact would not have deterred Joe from claiming that it was Adamic. For all anyone among his followers would have known, the Hebrew language would have inherited such words from Adamic (and since nobody really knew anything about any pure Adamic language, nobody would have been in a position to challenge such a claim). The discussion about "pay lay ale" is not about advancing the claim that it was really the "pure Adamic" language. It's just to illustrate how Joseph Smith was ludicrously making up stories about knowing ancient languages, like so-called Adamic and so-called "Reformed Egyptian". Of course "pay lay ale" is no more an example of pure Adamic language than claiming that "Awmen angelsman" or whatever is the Adamic term for "angels". While I would tend to agree that the likely source of Joe's "inspiration" was the Hebrew phrase that you refer to, I'm not sure that we can entirely rule out "pale ale" as a possible inspiration as well. There were quite a few people from the British Isles in Nauvoo at the time. Who knows? Maybe Joe used "pale ale" as mnemonic device to help him memorize the Hebrew phrase "pey le el".
The generations of trauma caused by this man’s fraud is hitting me so heavy. This is all so ridiculous and laughable but also incredibly heavy and heartbreaking.
Some think Pay Lay Ale came from "pe le-El" (פה לאל), "mouth to God, but Joseph was learning Hebrew as well. This doesn't mean it was spoken by Adam just because it was hebrew. Why would Joseph change the spelling from the Hebrew unless he was trying to hide where he got the phrase from or he was using hooked on phonics!
Well they say in all crime ''Follow the money''. Whatever sum the Saints were induced to pay (I heard $6000 worth over $200,000 in todays equivalent value) for the mummies and papyri then people should ask where that money went. That's a huge sum of money but did it all go to the seller? The Kirtland temple needed large amounts of money spent on it, including plastering, to complete during the same period. Or am I wrong? Anyway, this seems a subject worthy of study.
Very interested in this material. But trying to listen, It took almost 10 minutes to start saying anything. Just repeating what you plan to say. Get to the point guys. thanks
Joseph Smith was the WORST conscripter I've ever seen, and his conlanging abilities aren't much better. Those "characters from the golden plates" look like a conscript from a ten year old, complete with every amateur mistake there is :P As a linguist who regularly creates conlangs and conscripts myself, I must say, Joe Smith's "gold plate" characters are definitely obviously fake.
I’ve listened to every episode on the series so far, and perhaps I missed it, but if not : it seems that SO much of this “white ppl = superior” problem is based on the erroneous belief that the ancient Jews were WHITE instead of middle eastern looking. And sure, some people groups around the Mediterranean were/are “lighter” than others, but cmon. It’s such a cringey and obviously false idea.
I’m not a Mormon, but I look forward to every new episode. They are all so brilliantly done! Hats off to Mike for all his hard work!
Same with me. Never been Mormon but love this content.
Me too!! Love the combo of these guys! (Tho would be great to have a female voice in these discussions too)
Same. I follow Mormonism because while all religion is bogus, Mormonism was clearly started by a perverted man who wanted to bang a bunch of chicks…and yet Mormons look at you like you’re the crazy one 😂 I’m amazed by the cult that is Mormonism. 🇺🇸
@@Zeett09Unfortunately I was a mormon, Once you start connecting all the dots you’ll understand its just free masonry.
Never Mormon but ♥️ Mike because it’s factual. I love history.
For the record there is nothing wrong with having a creative mind and "creating" a new language and crafting an epic story involving it and embedding philosophical and ethical ideas in that story ... see also: the Lord of the Rings.
The problem is when you lie about your fiction being real and use it to take money from others, embed a bunch of racism in your story, and eventually leverage your notoriety into having secret sex with lots of vulnerable women (and some underage girls) all under false pretenses.
Just sayin'
Edit: posted while watching... little did I know that the hosts would end up make these very points ... great minds and all.
Well said! Bravo!
Great comment !!👍
😮
I kinda that is what they are saying. It's just unfortunate it grew into what it did.
This is one of my favorite episodes yet! Like Nemo, I'm big into linguistics and have toyed around with making my own languages as well, for my creative works. One way the BOM sounds "fakey" to me is the names he uses. Names like "Moroni" and "Nephi" and "Laman" sound, let's say, "Old Testa-mish." But as a Jewish person who reads the Tanakh (analogous to the Christian OT, but from Hebrew manuscripts instead of Greek ones) in Hebrew as well as English, those names sound like jibberish. Names that end in the letter i have a long vowel pronunciation In Hebrew: for example, "Malachi" is pronounced "Mah-la-khee" - so when I first read the names "Nephi" and "Lehi" I pronounced them "Ney-phee" and "Ley-hee"! Hebrew names are often made from phrases - for example: "Michael" literally means, "Who is like God (El)?" and "Isaiah"/"Yeshayahu" means "YHVH is salvation." Most names ending in "iah/yah" refer to "YHVH". But Joseph Smith's names don't feel like they lead back to any real linguistic tradition, Biblically speaking. They seem like names made by a guy who has read the English version of the Christian Old Testament a lot.
I couldn't agree more, it's just so obviously fake. I'm struggling to understand how anyone fell for such a blatantly obvious fraud?
@@johnmichaelson9173I had the exact same thoughts when I was first introduced to Mormonism as a teenager. How can anyone believe this? Josephs scams are so obvious
@@Whocaress700 Exactly, I'm English & I mean no offence to Missouri but I LMAO when I heard Joseph Smith said Eden was in Daviees County Missouri. 😂I don't know how he kept a straight face.
@@johnmichaelson9173 i was 17 years old when my parents moved to Utah. We moved for work purposes, and we knew nothing about Mormons and their history.
So like any ppl new to Utah, you get missionaries at your door every week. At first we would be nice and listed to what they had to say.
I’m so happy and proud of my parents. My dad is a history nut and loves learning about ancient Hebrew culture.
So on the very first day the Mormons showed up we already saw all the mistakes.
my dad asked missionary how can y’all use the word “ Christ” which is Greek in origin 600 years before Greece conquered the Middle East?
@@johnmichaelson9173 I’m even more puzzled about non USA converts.
Like wtf, how can anyone from another country fall for this? It’s so American centric.
Nemo reactions while going through all the Awmen “translations” is the highlight of my day right now 😂😂 1:07:28
I'm English myself & it's just pure cringe hearing this fantastical nonsense. At best I'm thinking Smith was worried about remembering these word's so he went with simple but stupid. Other than that, how could these people not be in total hysterics on hearing Smith's bs answers?
One of your best videos so far. Well done.
JS got away with so much from 1830-1844 because his translations could not be checked at the time. He could not do it today.
As JD said, by the end of the 1820's JS needed a new idea. He had to find a 'new gig'.
He was a creative man, accustomed to telling tales and digging for treasure. His new venture combined all of his skills, enabling him to start a religion and attract a following.
We will never know if the LDS church would have had the success it did if it were not for a masterful Brigham Young taking over and leading the majority to Salt Lake City, where there was no opposition. Without BY, I don't think Mormonism would have become what it is today.
They should've changed LDS to LSD because as far as I'm concerned Joseph Smith inventing all this utter nonsense he must've been tripping outta his tiny mind.
I hope and pray all your information will reach and open many eyes and many ears to the truth....it is the truth that sets one free. And everyone deserves to be free.
I laughed way too hard at: “Why do you have a tapir wearing a British flag?” “You mean this horse?”
I'm loving this trio! Mike, John and Nemo. Fantastic.
Makes me wish I could see the minutes from the meeting where the modern Q15 decided that Pay Lay Ale should be removed from the endowment.
Congratulations on 100K !! 🎉
Thank you so much 😀
It's also odd that it never occurred to Joseph Smith or any of the witnesses to simply do basic rubbings on the engraved plates to literally make a carbon copy of the characters on several plates. Of course there never really were any engraved plates. But just to play along with Joseph Smith's claim that there were, it seems like one of the most obvious things he could do to provide some additional evidence of his "Reformed Egyptian" engravings would be to either make rubbings (the way that people do with old tombstones) or lightly roll some ink onto one of the plates and then press a piece of paper onto it. They were engravings. Those are simple things that you can do with engravings.
Thank you all so much for all the work you put in,you have been a tremendous aid to me as I have deconstructed my faith in the mormon church. You have and are helping me navigate one of the hardest experiences I have had in my life(and trust me that is saying a lot). Just know you are making a big difference!!!!
Good stuff, I read both the Joseph Smith history of the Church and the B. H. Roberts version and my eyes were opened widely.
The pure adamic language part of the episode was my favorite. My wife and I were dying. You would think that Mormonism would have jumped the shark at that point.
John Taylor was a translator. The French version of the "Book of Mormon" ("le Livre de Mormon") was translated by him.
Unfortunately, it is really hard to read, and has some odd contours (like the use of the sorry-that's-not-a-French-word "la repentance" instead of the proper French term "le repentir" for English "repentance".) The modern French translations of the Bible are beautiful and poetic in a way that the French Book of Mormon only wishes it could be. But we will never get a better one, because the one we have was translated by John Taylor.
57:42--"coming through a rock and a hat"--it was literally a Laff-out-loud moment--it deserved at least six repeats... If the play "Book of Mormon" ever gets an updating, I hope somebody somewhere will have heard this line.....it's too good to be forgotten.
Mike trying to offer serious critque about the pure Adomic language while John and Nemo are dying of laughter (silently in Nemo's case) is just fantastic
John's lack of knowledge about beer is wholesome as heck! Pale ales are common everywhere. I'm Canadian and don't drink anymore but I love beer and am legitimately watching this drinking a local nonalcoholic pale ale!
Got a good belly laugh about "Dan the Tapir". The rest of the video is laid out in a logical format. Whenever I hear this informaiton, I can't help but think of Samuel Clemen's "Huckleberry Finn" where he and Jim run into two con artists claiming to be a Duke and a Dauphin. The way that Joseph Smith deceives his followers has the same spirit. It is amazing how so many people could be so deceived for so many years. It is a testament to the trusting and gullible nature of human beings. But then, the church was based and maintained on what I see as a pattern of deceit, which it has perpetrated for decades. Now that this information is available online, more and more people are seeing the truth. And "the truth will make you free".
Congrats on 100k subscribers!
Thank you!!
Check out the recent Mormonism Live episode about the impact Dartmouth played with Hyrum Smith getting educated there and other fascinating tidbits of information.
I've always been impressed with how Germanic the pure Adamic language is...
Ooooooh 100k!! You all enjoy that plaque 🎉🎉🎉
WOW..!! My favourite 3 podcasters of all time showing irrefutable evidence that the BOM is fraudulent.. !!! MY HEROES...!!! Geez, in my ignorant days, I was an early morning Seminary Teacher teaching absolutely lies. Thanks John, I remember those 'sacred' words. 'pay, lay, ale' in the temple of all places.... ROFL..
I took 6-7 classes from Thomas wayment. I learned about this back in 2006-2007
Joseph wrote himself into the Bible in the JST translation? He was already in the Bible. Haven't you heard of Balaam's Ass?
Even when I was a believing member who loved the Pearl of Great Price, I had trouble swallowing all of it. The part about Adam as an old man and the Adamic language never really sat right with me.
Congrats on 100k!!!
Thank you!!
@@mormonstories I absolutely adore your content and the work you put into it is out of this world. You deserve a million subs. I know how hard it is and you don't cut any corners. Thank you for your commitment and your steadfastness
Congrats for your 100k sub... Love your topics ... More success to you,💖💖💖🎉🎉🎉
Great episode. Love the work put into this and glad NEMO is here too!
When you guys was talking about Adan’s language it was funny 😅😅😅 really I had a very nice moment. You guys amazing!
Anyways I’m not Mormon anymore, and you’re known all the process to deconstructed all that crap you know!
But I’m still Christian and love Jesus❤. God blesses you guys ❤
The missionaries showed up to my door today. A neighbor sold me out telling them I was an inactive member. Suggestions on how to confront my neighbor and make it clear to the church I'm never coming back?
Say you decided to leave and convert to Christianity.
Tell your neighbor to mind their own business and tell your neighbor to shut up about telling the Mormons Snake Oil Sales Man about things regarding yourself.
Have your membership records removed.
@@christopherrandallnicholson How would I do that?
@@jeffs4483 I am now atheist
Colby Townsend also talks about how problematic it is to have the Tora in the BoM. Like, the Tora didn’t exist in 600 BC, so there wasn’t anything for Nephi to go get in Jerusalem.
John, your summary was powerful! Keep producing great content!
I laughed when John was describing the adamic language for the prayer because as a Brit (and nevermormon) I heard it as "pale ale" and raised my eyebrow at it, before Nemo explained it 😆
I don't think it was based on "pale ale" but "pay lay ale" could be "peh le'el" which does mean something in Hebrew. It's not far fetched he was able to get a Hebrew phrase.
Canadians are very familiar with Pale ale. That always bothered me about the temple chant!
Linguist here (but not specialized in what you're looking for ^)! The search for an Adamic language was a long trend in Western Europe from the middle ages through the early modern period! I think Mormons are probably the only group that is behind that theory to this day though. The idea of Adamic language was often paired with the search for Eden and Utopia. Also! Adamic language is often linked to Glossolalia or "speaking in tongues" (which is also disproven by modern linguistics ;) ) and/or Angelic Language! Finally, I think there was another "language" called Enochian in the 16th century (????) that was "revealed" through scrying, but I can't remember the guy's name that did that. Scrying is about as credible as a stone in a hat, right?
😂😂😂
Adam Clark is in the BoM as well
When I was on my mission, I compared the text common between the JST and BoM and was troubled by its problems. Why does the BoM match the KJV more tightly than the JST? Isn't the JST supposed to be how it was originally written?
I would answer to the Joseph Smith admitting in court that it was all a fraud, "that our law has no power over a man for his beliefs, therefore Joseph pretended to preach according to his beliefs." jS pretty much projected himself into that part of the book of Mormon. He wasn't a fraud if he didn't admit he was. That's a great insight from Nemo.
I think your program is brilliant . I am Scottish and here is a well known prayer in Scots Wir Faither in Hivin, Yir name be keepit in awe, Yir ring begin, in the warld as in Hivin. Gie us ilk day wir breid for the day, An forgie whit we are awin tae Yirsel, As we forgie ithers whit is awin tae us. An dinna trachle us sairly, but free us frae the Deil; fur the Croun is yir ain An the micht an the glory Warld upon warld. Sae be it. Imagine if Joseph Smith could translate things into Scots. Kind regards, Graham.
Speaking of the pure and undefiled Adamic language, let's not forget about Adam-ondi-Ahman. Apparently it means "Adam on the...God!" (assuming that the "Ahman" here is just a different spelling of "Awmen". Supposedly, Adam-ondi-Ahman is supposed to be a sacred altar of some kind used by Adam. Allegedly, according to some traditions, Eve asked Adam where to place the lambs for burnt offerings. Adam said: "Put dem on di Ahman Altar" (because sometimes Adam spoke like he was Amish, as a foreshadowing of the holy order of beards without mustaches). Then Eve tried to explain to Abel one day what the pile of rocks was and why she kept killing Abel's pet lambs and throwing them on top of that particular pile of rocks. "Abel, we put your pet lambs on that pile of rocks because Adam said to put dem on di Ahman altar". Abel was still quite young and did his best to remember. When his little sister Elayal asked him about the pile of rocks, Abel tried to explain it the way Eve had, but could only remember to say: "Adam...on di...Ahman".
The characters that the Church has been using in their recent videos on the plates look to me like they're heavily based on the Paleo Hebrew and Phoenician alphabets. They're trying to make them look more authentic and plausible.
2 more things: I think any similarity to the English alphabet, which Nemo pointed out, is due to how the Latin alphabet emerged from these more ancient, Semitic languages, and not because the Church wanted to preserve any of the English that Joseph was borrowing.
Second, I don't know who they got to work on this, but I'd bet a lot of money (which I don't have) that any one of my BYU ANES professors could/would have suggested the change. I personally know the Church consults them often, as I worked with a professor who helped to develop the CFM OT curriculum and who also gave guided tours to the Q12 when the DSS exhibit came to SLC. 🙃
Our family descends from Alexander Neibaur and our family history is that Alexander also gave Joseph Smith Hebrew lessons. Idk if it would have been before, after or at the same time as Joshua Seixas.
Question** If JS did make up the book of mormon and made his own plates, why would he fall for men digging up an ancient record in the ground when he shouldve known that these guys were just trying to trick him? JS would have been clever enough to try and figure that out right?
He would have known there was no ancient records buried anywhere around because he knew he made the whole story up?
So why did he try and translate the kinderhook plates?
Well, there's a range of possibilities. For one thing, he had built himself up as having the "gift of translation". In fact that was the original main claim that served as the foundation for his role as a religious leader. So he had a significant reputation concern. When presented with ancient engraved plates found in the ground and presented to him, appealing to him on the basis of his self-proclaimed power to translate ancient records, he would have been in a tricky spot. He wouldn't have necessarily known that the Kinderhook plates were fake (even if he suspected). His own tale about the golden plates was based on generally held beliefs about an ancient civilization having been in the area. He got mileage out of it because it seemed plausible to many people. Even though Joe would have known in his own case that he was making stuff up, he probably would have nonetheless believed that it was possible that such ancient plates could actually exist somewhere. Without certainty as to whether the Kinderhook plates were genuine or fake, he would not have been able to confidently declare them to be fake, lest he subsequently be contradicted by "experts". Plus, there is no evidence that Joe created any fake plates that would have looked genuine to anyone, which is why he would have always kept them hidden or under a cloth covering. His fakery was apparently very crude, consisting only of putting together something metallic that could be hefted, but not visually inspected. The Kinderhook plates on the other hand, were a much more sophisticated forgery.
I am am with the church I converted in 2021 I do have my doubts and trying real hard to believe but at the same time I know that Joseph Smith is a fraud...I didn't know that it would take so long to remove my membership...so my Bishop has my resignation letter..so I may go ahead and let him process it...but at the same time I still would like to figure out more of this religion...so any advice...
Move forward as for having your name removed from the church and continue to watch Mormon Stories to gain the truth about the Mormon Cult Church.
@@markkrispin6944 ok thank you...I did email the Bishop to process my resignation letter...I know it's well worth it to leave..and finally be free..they are very convincing..but I finally am glad to wake up from the Mormon dream...
I've always heard that the reformed Egyptian edition of the book of Mormon was seen as a mistake by the church and efforts were made to destroy those in it's immediate possession
Something I've never understood about JS translations and the 'restoring' of lost and important truths taken from the bible was why JS never added back or put back any of the scriptural texts taken out of the bible by the catholic church in the 17th century (can't remember exactly when), but somehow just kept finding these 'lost' works like papyri. I remember when I learned about the fact that there was a gospel of mary magdala and feeling SO ROBBED!!!
Finally getting to listen more... the Pale Ale thing is probably from Hebrew. Something pronounced like "peh l'el" would mean "mouth to God," so like "from my mouth to God's ears" sort of a thing, but not grammatically specific at all.
Sincere question: if Joseph Smith didn't translate the Book of Mormon, and only referenced other books (KJV Bible, View of the Hebrews, The First Book of Napoleon) how did he actually go about writing his book with his scribes? Did he read straight from those books and change names? Did he write it all out first, then read from that? Genuinely curious to know your theory.
@Chris Bartlett - We’ve covered the “how the Book of Mormon was written” topic several times on a Mormon Stories with multiple experts! Have you searched the back catalogue at all?
@@mormonstories Yes, thanks! I found "How the BoM was Composed" and listened. Keep up the good work.
@mormonstorie😊s
@@mormonstories when I wrote that comment one year ago, I was literally one month into my faith transition. I had only just discovered MormonStories. I felt like everything I’d known was falling apart. I’ve grown a lot in the last year, and much of that is thanks to Mormonstories. You never know what a person is going through and when.
While listening to this episode, I received an email from a nephew who is on his mission. He stated that while visiting a woman prospect, one missionary could speak German (women's 1st language) so my nephew tried to use Google translate to keep in the conversation. Google came up with Isreal Bazooka. Needless to say, Google and Joseph Smith had the same results. Neither Google or JS could achieve the correct translations. 😂 I wanted to tell my nephew this joke, but know one day he will wise up.
There's actually a beer called Pay Lay Ale. It's pretty good. 😊
I guess that means that we should have had a mug full of Pay Lay Ale in our hand when we took the 3rd token.
This isn't video related but as I've learned more about non-mormon Christians I see dominance of Paul. Maybe you could have Sandra Tanner talk about why Mormons don't see Paul in the same way.
The Plates were Brass with the appearance of Gold, not Gold (see 1 Ne 5:10).
Hello everyone..I am always shared your content .purpose is to raise awareness to all the people member or non member from my FB friends😁
TBMs try to discredit Robert Ritner now. Say that his 13 hour interview was a sham. Lol
I doubt that they can back that characterization up with any kind of logic, facts or substance of any kind. It doesn't cost anything and takes no effort to call something a "sham". It's just a label with no adhesive.
Yes, it's a ridiculous talking point that they can't win. No names like Gee and Muhlestein don't have the credentials or credibility to discredit the world's foremost authority on Books of Breathings.
It would still require faith, even if we had the plates.
Especially since they would be blank sheets of tin.
I needed this laugh today. Thank you for this!
Looked it up. First known use of pale ale was in 1703 and apparently was in common use by 1780. It is a term he would have known. Also I was hearing fake wannabe hebrew with the "Adamic" language but couldn't make it out. lol
Saw you talking at the intro, and I thought, "hey, there is Donnie Osmond!" any relationship to the man?
Pale ale is a thing in the USA too.
38:51 Let's be honest, "if it looks like a duck..."
1:05:15 I'm dying, hahaha 😂
1:15:59 you need a conlanger linguist- someone who 'invents' constructed languages. I'm a linguist. My two cents is that JS was so poor at this because he and the people around him lived in an ‘English only' society. Nothing to do with language trees.
I can play tech videos, graduate school videos, etc. at higher speeds, but when Mike is on it's normal speed only:) That was so interesting/fun, I swear I'd go back to church if they voted John, Mike, and Nemo in as First Presidency and voted all other officers as now constituted out!! 😁
Hey, MS has over 100k subscribers
150k
I sort of like predicted before these guys sort of started analyzing that Joseph would kind of fail each test. I guess I am almost like a prophet.
At what point does the leadership recognize this doesn't work? Was it B.H. Roberts? A lot of these guys are pretty smart. When did they figure it out, but it just made sense to perpetuate what certainly looks like a con?
Hey folks!
wow... wow. this is very solid evidence that he just completely made it up, and didn't even do a very good job. Those characters that the church made up for the "now you know" videos looks a lot like chinese (which i have studied). i recognize a few characters that look very much like ancient chinese characters (more crude than the modern ones but still recognizable).
Pale ales originated when british soldiers were traveling to India and they wanted a beer that lasted longer in barrels on ships. They are called IPAs or Indian Pale Ales
Why does the BOM (the most correct book) resemble the KJV (an imperfect book) not the JST (a revelation of Joseph Smith's)? That makes no sense at all.
Have the Mormon Church ever had someone who has an education and study of the language that Joseph Smith translated from ?
Beautifully stated
Amazing.
Question-is the word from temple ceremony “ale” or “El”. El is a Hebrew name for god ( generic diety) used often in Old Testament.
While not mormon, I find these presentations intriguing. It's difficult to come away with much other than Joseph Smith was a broken and pitiful man who deceived many.
1:0:25 I feel bad for Mike. He’s trying so hard to stay serious and Nemo and John are making it impossible, giggling away 😂
Rather than a linguist, you need to recruit Dr Justin Sledge of the Esoterica channel to have a discussion about the "Caractors" and other translations. He would be able to deep dive into any material that would have been available to Joseph Smith at the time and it's entire history:
th-cam.com/video/7dhz4GR2yio/w-d-xo.html
He's also mentioned Smith ("peep Stone Joe") in a "Treasure Magic" episode before. I'm sure he has deep grasp on all the "folk magic" of the day:
th-cam.com/video/H4jychtyrho/w-d-xo.html
Is it pay lay ale or El (as in Elohim)?
The Adamic language is "Its Raining Men"
Joseph's Myth. Total scam artist.
Author, Sidney Rigdom
I try not to always be grammar police: but you all spent many minutes of Pay Lay Ale and how great it is. First of all the words were Pe le-El; El was Hebrew for God as in Emmanuel (God with us) Samuel (God has sent) Elijah (Yahweh is my God)...Elohim (God of the highest); **Note: many bibical names incorporated "El into their names e.g. Michael, Elizabeth, Elisha, Azriel, etc... The temple ceremony was created after/during Joseph Smith learning Hebrew so Pe le-El means mouth to God in Hebrew; So when we were saying "Pey le-El" or Oh God hear the words of my Mouth; it was actually Hebrew, not Adamic.
I don't think anyone in this discussion is mistakenly thinking that "pay lay ale" is actually Adamic...or that such a thing as the "pure Adamic" language even exists. The point is that Mormons for generations were taught and believed that it was Adamic. Of course you are likely correct that it would actually have come from Hebrew words that Joseph Smith had learned around the time that the ceremony was created. But that fact would not have deterred Joe from claiming that it was Adamic. For all anyone among his followers would have known, the Hebrew language would have inherited such words from Adamic (and since nobody really knew anything about any pure Adamic language, nobody would have been in a position to challenge such a claim). The discussion about "pay lay ale" is not about advancing the claim that it was really the "pure Adamic" language. It's just to illustrate how Joseph Smith was ludicrously making up stories about knowing ancient languages, like so-called Adamic and so-called "Reformed Egyptian". Of course "pay lay ale" is no more an example of pure Adamic language than claiming that "Awmen angelsman" or whatever is the Adamic term for "angels". While I would tend to agree that the likely source of Joe's "inspiration" was the Hebrew phrase that you refer to, I'm not sure that we can entirely rule out "pale ale" as a possible inspiration as well. There were quite a few people from the British Isles in Nauvoo at the time. Who knows? Maybe Joe used "pale ale" as mnemonic device to help him memorize the Hebrew phrase "pey le el".
The generations of trauma caused by this man’s fraud is hitting me so heavy. This is all so ridiculous and laughable but also incredibly heavy and heartbreaking.
Wow is it the end times? How did mormon stories suddenly double their sub count in a couple months?
Some think Pay Lay Ale came from "pe le-El" (פה לאל), "mouth to God, but Joseph was learning Hebrew as well. This doesn't mean it was spoken by Adam just because it was hebrew. Why would Joseph change the spelling from the Hebrew unless he was trying to hide where he got the phrase from or he was using hooked on phonics!
❤
Well they say in all crime ''Follow the money''. Whatever sum the Saints were induced to pay (I heard $6000 worth over $200,000 in todays equivalent value) for the mummies and papyri then people should ask where that money went. That's a huge sum of money but did it all go to the seller? The Kirtland temple needed large amounts of money spent on it, including plastering, to complete during the same period. Or am I wrong? Anyway, this seems a subject worthy of study.
Sadly, all religions have similar skeletons which is reason to stay away from all religions.
There is no religion in the Bible only the Commandments
@@davidjanbaz7728 Read to me from the Bible book and verse, Prove me wrong
@@davidjanbaz7728 I'm waiting for that scripture
Assuming that the translation was like rituals, I'd imagine they were close to perfectly copied. I'm not claiming to know or fully believe that.
Hey I'm Canadian eh, and we have pale ales here in Canada too! 😂😂😂
Very interested in this material. But trying to listen, It took almost 10 minutes to start saying anything. Just repeating what you plan to say. Get to the point guys. thanks
At 31:20 , you can see how they tried to use bronze age hebrew characters to legitimize their claims.
Joseph Smith was the WORST conscripter I've ever seen, and his conlanging abilities aren't much better. Those "characters from the golden plates" look like a conscript from a ten year old, complete with every amateur mistake there is :P As a linguist who regularly creates conlangs and conscripts myself, I must say, Joe Smith's "gold plate" characters are definitely obviously fake.
You answered my question...But how do Mormons believe this tall tales.
Still..????
That's discussed in the following MS with John Larsen.
I looked at the characters and they look similar to Linear A not Latin.
Next topic up for discussion : How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Stayed tuned.
I’ve listened to every episode on the series so far, and perhaps I missed it, but if not : it seems that SO much of this “white ppl = superior” problem is based on the erroneous belief that the ancient Jews were WHITE instead of middle eastern looking. And sure, some people groups around the Mediterranean were/are “lighter” than others, but cmon. It’s such a cringey and obviously false idea.
Tittle is about JS translations, but I’m just getting a 2 minute intro of MS ?
It starts in a just a few seconds...
It’s just an intro regarding what Mormon Stories is for those that may be new to the channel
@@boysrus61 thank you
@@robbiegordon7089 thank you
Trump is zero for everything he says