In Spiderman 2 its clear to see that they was trying to remove narrative dissonance with all of the walking simulator missions and they didn't listen to the MJ mission complaints we had from the last game. That game really missed the mark for me. Thanks Sweet baby inc.
Ludo narrative dissonance only worked in BioShock because it was self aware and built its plot twist around it. Most joirnos who complain about it because it isn't realistic. These characters are meant to be larger than life not affected by the death and destruction.
Bingo! Same goes for Spec Ops: The Line, the dissonance was the dramatic arc for the player's character. It works in a few instances, but just slapping it as a whole on entire genres or games never made much sense.
GoW2 and Allan Wake 2 didn't look right to me. Something felt off, so never picked them up. I started googling around to see if others felt the same. That lead me to Sweet Baby inc... JFC what am absolute cluster hump of trash people. Happy to have found your content while looking for an explanation of WTF is going on.
Thanks! And in the long run, depending on how this channel grows, I'm planning to create a consulting arm for it. To replace companies like Sweet Baby Inc. with actual writers who know what they're doing.
Have you played Supergiant's Pyre? If not, you should check it out. To me, it's the best-written story told so far in video games because of how its individual elements coalesce into a greater thematic whole. Without giving too much away, the basic premise is that you are a "reader," someone capable of deriving meaning from text, in a world where reading is outlawed. Because you broke the law, you were sent to the Downside, which is essentially Hell, where society punishes you for your crimes. The character you play is someone literally capable of interpreting meaning from text, while you, the player, are someone interpreting meaning from the text, i.e., the game you're playing. This actually goes the complete opposite way of ludonarrative dissonance. It creates this sense of ludonarrative harmony, where you feel remarkably at one with your character in the story and with the choices you're forced to make. There is a concept in aesthetics known as "gesamtkunstwerk," meaning "total work of art" or, my favorite translation, "synthesis of the arts." In architecture, it describes a structure in which architecture, exterior design, interior design, furnishing, landscaping, etc., all synthesize together into a whole where every disparate element compliments and informs your understanding of the other elements. To me, a true gesamtkunstwerk is an ideal to aspire to, not something truly achievable, akin to true perfection in that way. But I believe Pyre is the closest thing the gaming medium has ever achieved to a gesamtkunstwerk. In Pyre, you, the reader, are the only one capable of leading your units-the other characters in the story-in a series of tournaments known as the Rites. Each tournament you win allows you to send one of your units back to the land above, essentially freeing them from eternal damnation in the Downside. However, Pyre is an RPG, so time invested into these characters develops their skills and makes them more useful in the Rites by unlocking upgrades and abilities. So when considering who to have ascend out of the Downside, you must consider multiple factors. Who would be most useful to you in the upper world, where you have other goals? Who is most useful in the rites themselves? If you don't choose to ascend certain characters, how will that affect their opinions of you and their individual stories? You have to consider each of these things every time you complete a liberation right. And more than just that, in order to participate in these liberation rights, you have to win the lesser rites and defeat other sympathetic characters and take away their chances at freedom. So your skill at the game is literally the determining factor of how your story unfolds and what path it takes. You have to blend gameplay with your own goals as well as the wants and needs of the characters, since you yourself cannot partake in the rites and must appease the desires of the participants. You do this in a setting beautifully inspired by Dante Ahligeiri's Divine Comedy, and I won't even get into all the religious allusions, because I'd be here forever, but they too serve the greater thematic whole. It's the most beautifully crafted game I've ever played, and I truly think it's the quintessential masterpiece of the gaming medium, and yet it's so thoroughly underappreciated.
I would say narrative in videogames peaked at the turn of the millenium with Xenogears and Planescape Torment, I was hoping you mentioned them or their peers but you never even went below the 2010s. Storytelling wise Video games reached a level of similar to classic cinema, but unlike cinema or tv, those games just dont sell, they become cult classics but commercially unviable or at best just decent.
Yeah, I stuck to the 2010s on purpose because most of the time those are the games lauded for their storytelling in the mainstream. But we'll get to earlier years too as the series goes on. In the background, I'm trying to streamline my thesis first. With the next video I should be able to demonstrate how it's possible to construct a dramatic arc with gameplay (without compromising on both). This method should work for silent protagonists too. That video is already in the works.
I strongly disagree. Imo all the narrative does is add bloat to an otherwise lean and interesting game. I don’t need an ivory tower writer to enjoy games like Zelda or any of the final fantasies. Any additional effort or budget to the story can be better served by enhancing gameplay and mechanics. The most extreme example is the sheer slop of stories we got from Pokemon games post Gen 4. Boy defeats evil team is effective video game story telling. Mario being in a funny play and that’s why they all play sports and drive karts is another one.
Nah, I think we're on the same page. I want more Sekiros and less God of Wars (2018). I like both games but Sekiro absolutely incorporated the story better into gameplay. The biggest problem plaguing video game narratives since the 7th gen is the word "cinematic." It's a pointless word for an interactive medium and only invites more cutscenes. But I think I have found a solution. This is an ongoing series and more is on the way. In my Doom video I broke down the approach. Basically, no one translated the dramatic arc into gameplay form. Sekiro did it for example but the approach can be distilled for every type of game. Even something simple as Stray did it (I will showcase that one as well). I say in the Doom video too: a video game can have the best story told but if I have to watch it inside the game, it's a fail. In Part 2 I will add another 5 ways to improve. Games are not a lesser medium, it's just that no storyteller dealt with the gameplay only with the aftermath once everything was set in place by developers. They need to work together like screenwriter/director and director of photography.
Id definitely watch a "how to tell a political story in video games" with good vs bad examples of preachy clumsy shoehorning vs something like Horizon thats loaded to the brim but pulls it off even (maybe especially) to those not sharing those politics. Granted, its dicey territory. Looking forward to more content as a fellow lover of storytelling!
I think, I saw that one pop up (haven't watched it yet). Yeah, it's the same with "don't punch down," that's why I added that comparison in the AoT video. Some writers are trying to do more complex stuff and they haven't even mastered the basics. I'm like, try just being funny first and then build on that. I get political scripts every now and then when I have to give notes and I immediately see the screenwriter just writes how they wish the world to be and not how it actually is. That horrendous bit of dialogue in Falcon and the Winter Soldier's with "do better, senator!" If I get a scene like that, my first obvious question is 'why is a superhero uttering the most passive, inactive phrase imaginable?' Or 'why isn't the senator fighting back? He's just standing there.' Most people think they're doing the right thing and will get defensive about their actions. So, even if I don't agree with the politics, I'd at least expect characters, not strawmen. But, I don't subscribe to "all art is political" anyway. People can claim whatever they want, I just follow the dramatic arc as it is. Which means, I'll get guaranteed flack from all sides hahaha
cool, hoping to see part 2 one day!
In Spiderman 2 its clear to see that they was trying to remove narrative dissonance with all of the walking simulator missions and they didn't listen to the MJ mission complaints we had from the last game. That game really missed the mark for me. Thanks Sweet baby inc.
Fun video and you had some good points. ^^
Ludo narrative dissonance only worked in BioShock because it was self aware and built its plot twist around it. Most joirnos who complain about it because it isn't realistic. These characters are meant to be larger than life not affected by the death and destruction.
Bingo! Same goes for Spec Ops: The Line, the dissonance was the dramatic arc for the player's character. It works in a few instances, but just slapping it as a whole on entire genres or games never made much sense.
GoW2 and Allan Wake 2 didn't look right to me. Something felt off, so never picked them up. I started googling around to see if others felt the same. That lead me to Sweet Baby inc... JFC what am absolute cluster hump of trash people. Happy to have found your content while looking for an explanation of WTF is going on.
Thanks! And in the long run, depending on how this channel grows, I'm planning to create a consulting arm for it. To replace companies like Sweet Baby Inc. with actual writers who know what they're doing.
@@NarrativeArcade good man!
Have you played Supergiant's Pyre? If not, you should check it out. To me, it's the best-written story told so far in video games because of how its individual elements coalesce into a greater thematic whole. Without giving too much away, the basic premise is that you are a "reader," someone capable of deriving meaning from text, in a world where reading is outlawed. Because you broke the law, you were sent to the Downside, which is essentially Hell, where society punishes you for your crimes.
The character you play is someone literally capable of interpreting meaning from text, while you, the player, are someone interpreting meaning from the text, i.e., the game you're playing. This actually goes the complete opposite way of ludonarrative dissonance. It creates this sense of ludonarrative harmony, where you feel remarkably at one with your character in the story and with the choices you're forced to make.
There is a concept in aesthetics known as "gesamtkunstwerk," meaning "total work of art" or, my favorite translation, "synthesis of the arts." In architecture, it describes a structure in which architecture, exterior design, interior design, furnishing, landscaping, etc., all synthesize together into a whole where every disparate element compliments and informs your understanding of the other elements. To me, a true gesamtkunstwerk is an ideal to aspire to, not something truly achievable, akin to true perfection in that way. But I believe Pyre is the closest thing the gaming medium has ever achieved to a gesamtkunstwerk.
In Pyre, you, the reader, are the only one capable of leading your units-the other characters in the story-in a series of tournaments known as the Rites. Each tournament you win allows you to send one of your units back to the land above, essentially freeing them from eternal damnation in the Downside. However, Pyre is an RPG, so time invested into these characters develops their skills and makes them more useful in the Rites by unlocking upgrades and abilities. So when considering who to have ascend out of the Downside, you must consider multiple factors.
Who would be most useful to you in the upper world, where you have other goals? Who is most useful in the rites themselves? If you don't choose to ascend certain characters, how will that affect their opinions of you and their individual stories? You have to consider each of these things every time you complete a liberation right. And more than just that, in order to participate in these liberation rights, you have to win the lesser rites and defeat other sympathetic characters and take away their chances at freedom. So your skill at the game is literally the determining factor of how your story unfolds and what path it takes. You have to blend gameplay with your own goals as well as the wants and needs of the characters, since you yourself cannot partake in the rites and must appease the desires of the participants.
You do this in a setting beautifully inspired by Dante Ahligeiri's Divine Comedy, and I won't even get into all the religious allusions, because I'd be here forever, but they too serve the greater thematic whole. It's the most beautifully crafted game I've ever played, and I truly think it's the quintessential masterpiece of the gaming medium, and yet it's so thoroughly underappreciated.
I'll add it to the list. I've never heard of this game but it reads like an interesting play. I'll check it out!
I would say narrative in videogames peaked at the turn of the millenium with Xenogears and Planescape Torment, I was hoping you mentioned them or their peers but you never even went below the 2010s.
Storytelling wise Video games reached a level of similar to classic cinema, but unlike cinema or tv, those games just dont sell, they become cult classics but commercially unviable or at best just decent.
Yeah, I stuck to the 2010s on purpose because most of the time those are the games lauded for their storytelling in the mainstream. But we'll get to earlier years too as the series goes on. In the background, I'm trying to streamline my thesis first. With the next video I should be able to demonstrate how it's possible to construct a dramatic arc with gameplay (without compromising on both). This method should work for silent protagonists too. That video is already in the works.
I strongly disagree. Imo all the narrative does is add bloat to an otherwise lean and interesting game. I don’t need an ivory tower writer to enjoy games like Zelda or any of the final fantasies. Any additional effort or budget to the story can be better served by enhancing gameplay and mechanics.
The most extreme example is the sheer slop of stories we got from Pokemon games post Gen 4. Boy defeats evil team is effective video game story telling. Mario being in a funny play and that’s why they all play sports and drive karts is another one.
Nah, I think we're on the same page. I want more Sekiros and less God of Wars (2018). I like both games but Sekiro absolutely incorporated the story better into gameplay. The biggest problem plaguing video game narratives since the 7th gen is the word "cinematic." It's a pointless word for an interactive medium and only invites more cutscenes. But I think I have found a solution. This is an ongoing series and more is on the way. In my Doom video I broke down the approach. Basically, no one translated the dramatic arc into gameplay form. Sekiro did it for example but the approach can be distilled for every type of game. Even something simple as Stray did it (I will showcase that one as well). I say in the Doom video too: a video game can have the best story told but if I have to watch it inside the game, it's a fail. In Part 2 I will add another 5 ways to improve. Games are not a lesser medium, it's just that no storyteller dealt with the gameplay only with the aftermath once everything was set in place by developers. They need to work together like screenwriter/director and director of photography.
Id definitely watch a "how to tell a political story in video games" with good vs bad examples of preachy clumsy shoehorning vs something like Horizon thats loaded to the brim but pulls it off even (maybe especially) to those not sharing those politics. Granted, its dicey territory. Looking forward to more content as a fellow lover of storytelling!
I think, I saw that one pop up (haven't watched it yet). Yeah, it's the same with "don't punch down," that's why I added that comparison in the AoT video. Some writers are trying to do more complex stuff and they haven't even mastered the basics. I'm like, try just being funny first and then build on that. I get political scripts every now and then when I have to give notes and I immediately see the screenwriter just writes how they wish the world to be and not how it actually is. That horrendous bit of dialogue in Falcon and the Winter Soldier's with "do better, senator!" If I get a scene like that, my first obvious question is 'why is a superhero uttering the most passive, inactive phrase imaginable?' Or 'why isn't the senator fighting back? He's just standing there.' Most people think they're doing the right thing and will get defensive about their actions. So, even if I don't agree with the politics, I'd at least expect characters, not strawmen. But, I don't subscribe to "all art is political" anyway. People can claim whatever they want, I just follow the dramatic arc as it is. Which means, I'll get guaranteed flack from all sides hahaha