I was supervising a new employee that broke a 5/8 tap on a $2500 stainless shaft. He asked me if I was going to fire him. I told him: think I'm stupid? Now you know how to break a tap, and you also learned what not to do to avoid breaking a tap; that is called experience. What do you think is going to happen if I hire a new guy with no experience?
That is the kind of reaction you see in a new employee who has worked for some shitty employers or supervisors in the past. He'll get over the past experiences after working under a boss that is more interested in facilitating the new troop's knowledge and training than throwing him under the bus for every screw up.
I remember what happened when I did it. He said - why did I go and break it? I said - I didn't have anything better to do than to drill it out. That's exactly what I did for the next few hours.
@@aljosasinadinoski6032 ...I can't see how THIS particular setup would be any good at actually MAKING anything- but if you are referring to the technique of "ElectroDischarge Machining", you're quite right.
My neighbor had a motorcycle with a broken dowel pin in the crankshaft. (Rotary valve Kawasaki.) A machine shop turned an EDM electrode to the exact diameter needed using a lathe and used EDM to cut the pin out to the depth shown on the print in the shop manual for the bike. The EDM cut it perfectly. This was about 1969.
I haven't had lots of experiences with broken taps but I discovered something amazing during my first encounter. I broke a tap off in an aluminum supercharger. I called machine shop they refused to work on it. I researched and found out alum powder used to pickle veggies mixed with water and heated will dissolve ferrous metals like steel and iron but will not harm nonferrous metals like aluminum. I tried it and dissolved the tap completely for less than $10. Pretty interesting
I won't lie I read this comment like whaaaat naaaaa Then searched it and wow that's a bloody brilliant way of doing it Lots of how too guides on TH-cam to confirm what you say ! Makes me want to break a drill bit into some ally just to try it 😅🤷
My Grandfather was a toolmaker and had a set of taps that had a hole cored down the centre with a reverse thread. In the kit we’re these recovery tools, like a reverse thread bolt with a shoulder. You were to wind the recovery bit down into the central hole until the shoulder stopped it going any further. You then kept winding and the snapped part would back out. I think 1/4” was the smallest tap with a tiny recovery bit. He proudly boasted he’d won them as an apprentice, used them regularly and never blew a bit in 45yrs. Sometimes, seeing him work metals in his seventies it was wholly credible.😉
That is exactly how it should be done, not smashing it into pieces. First a hole with the edm, the a reverse tap used to remove stuck broken bolts etc...
Obviously the two commenters have never worked in fab shops or machine shops. When a bit gets stuck like this in a solid steel part like this, you aren’t going to just reverse the tab and pull it on out. The steel will shrink and bind it up after it cools down. And other factors are at play as well
@@coltraindontworryboutit9990 It's M20: plenty place to edm a hole and use reverse tapped conical bit to unscrew it. The hole will shrink the tap's volume. Anyway, you are right that other factors play as well, but using a hammer and chisel are the last resort. He just was lucky not to damage the thread. This shows how you can make a hole in such hard metal using an Edm, but after the Edm, other tools exist. He had to use the Edm 3 times, normally you do this in 1 go with a recovery bit. Anyway,, the guy that breaks an M20 tap, was not using the right tool nor torque.
I am also a CNC-EDM machine operator in taiwan, and this is one of my masterpiece, I also can operate a surface grinding machine for it is very important to our job to prepare or shape an electrode used for the machining. Tapping or make a repair like that on the video are one of our job. I really missed it!
I so understand that sickening and sinking feeling you get when you break a tap off during one of the last operations of making an expensive part! So much easier to fix today then when I started working as a machinist!
YES, In my days as in the deburring / finishing dept of a 40person shop w/ no edm they would always send the part to DEBURRING for me to get out and make like new..Retired now YEAH..
The worst feeling is getting a tap out of an expensive jnconel part, then immediately breaking off a defective tap in the hole. Back to EDM for the next few hours…
if you spray on a zinc laiden epoxy paint over the work area the outflow passes ( just plug the hole with your finger) you won't have any ugly pitting on top, just wipe it off with thinner after. Just try it ;) takes 2 extra minutes to do and makes the result look perfect for the client! That aside nicely executed!
It just looks such a bad way of removing it! All that chipping bits out with a hammer and punch, marking and levering against the threads is bad practice. Could've got 10 broken taps out in that time with some nickel rods and a few bolts to weld on 🤔
Use castrol tap wax and grind drill bit offcenter will open hole little larger help keep tap from blowing but only do with bigger size taps engineers say tap will pull and could risk life but 33 years never saw anything happen unless eyebolt was 80 years old and bent alwYs hide when osha come thru along with nylon straps only used for flipping parts over osha see snag and have scrap out why usa get n ass kicked by china
This is about the most expensive and technical way you could possibly do this job. Especially with a 20mm tap. My go to for tap removal was always TIG welding. I would create a puddle of metal as wide as I could make it without contacting the threads. Then keep building and building until I had nub protruding from the hole about 15mm. When done welding I would lube the hole with penetrating oil. Then grab the nub with a pipe wrench and back the tap out. Depending on the size of the tap, it would usually take about 10min start to finish. Worst case, it would break off again and I would have another go. Removed hundreds of broken bolts and taps this way. Very effective.
@@keatmany2k5I was wondering why you were going down the overkill route. At first I thought it was just for demonstration purposes, but I never considered that they were tungsten carbide taps, no wonder it broke.
@mikeydudek2885 the tap in this video was not a tungsten carbide tap. It was a hss tap. The guy that posted that comment is a dumb fuck. Tig welding method is great
Sure, this is a good idea and doesn't take time or effort, and there is another way that he could make a hole in the centre of the tap, then put a squared or reverse threads tap to take it off and unscrew the broken tap, it's so simple .
The key to tapping stainless is more frequent reversing and backing out completely and removing all the debris. I learned to not use taps too many times on stainless, instead grab a new tap after 5 to 10 uses and move that used tap to your mild steel case. I still broke plenty in my line of work but always used another sharpened tap to remove the broken one. Saved a lot of time with these two practices.
@@trillrifaxegrindor4411 I worked at a automation shop running a manual mill, building custom robotic machines and was one of 4 machinists there. I was always into the more tedious work and thinking outside of the box. I got stuck with setting up compound angles with a vise inside a vise and trickier stuff like that. The most puckering job I did was drilling and tapping mount holes in some 300 series stainless gripper jaws. The holes were m1.6x0.35, freaking tiny. The guy who ran the wire edm quit and I was the only one willing to take his place. Taught myself to run the edm and honestly had a blast doing that. Crazy what can be done with a edm
I used to tap 4" bearing cap holes on an 18 ft forged and machined $500k crankshaft for 5000 hp diesel engine. Using radial drill press. Was paid about $8/hr (1979). Never broke a tap but was always nervous as hell. Bottoming tap out is very common way to break it.
I don’t use tap’s all the time but after 21 years of using them I can honestly say I have a love hate for them. As an electrician it’s very convenient to make your own hole when needed but sometimes I have to ask if it’s worth it because most of these taps are made like garbage. I had to tap a couple stainless cabinets before and every one day scepter the last I had an issue with. Now I let the young guys do it. When they mess up they give me that look but they know me. They know I’m not the one to freak out. I’m the one that makes them do the challenging work so they get experience and build confidence while applying their trade. And I never knew such a machine existed! Totally cool!
You could try applying adhesive plastic tape around the area, it should prevent the surrounding metal from being damaged by the process? That's how electric etching is done, you apply an adhesive plastic tape with cutouts in the shape of the etched mark.
Kapton tape is perfect. Its rated at 500deg F and would perfectly mask the area and the adhesive would not leave any gummy residue. It peels off perfectly.
I personally use zinc epoxy paint , it's tough to damage , slightly conductive but comes off with solvent later leaving no trace , tape sorta works but in a shop environment occasionally gets a crease or a bubble or a pocket under it and then the spot still gets damaged after so I tried various paints and epoxy paint meant for painting iron after welding or galvanized steel etc ended up working like it was made for the task
The top of that part is a mess, it certainly wanted protecting by something, kapton tape sounds a good try for starters. I like the copper tube idea too to slice through the webs of the tap, that would be beautiful to see.
Use helical tornado down use old junk carbidr tool grind relife shank and flood hell out of spin tool fast and helical down bout .001 at a time but helical dia of hole 5hen tap will blow out pick out rest watch when get towards end tap as let go will break tool and goug wall bit
Removing busted anything is an art as much as science. I learned many techniques while in the Navy. On an all steel ship. It made me an indispensable shop hand. Absolutely vital skill.
We had an edm collecting dust no one wanted to "figure" it out. So I took the initiative. These things are worth their weight in gold. Holy smokes I can't even tell you how many parts I fixed over the years. Every shop should have one imo.
Edm I'd the thing you name it lol it can do it edm machining is still the top dog to hard materials wire eroding machines make taps lol dies all sorts yep it's an art form new a guy from wetland helicopters he used to run one total respect
It’s useful more than just fixing tools. Imagine drilling holes on harden parts. I have suppliers plugged the holes all day long. Makes some tough job much easier with the right tool.
When I'm EDM'ing broken taps I use a thin wall copper or brass tube as an electrode of a suitable diameter that it can cut all the webs at once. No chiselling necessary !
That thought crossed my mind, Why use a solid Rod, if all You want is a thin Cut to make manageable pieces… and pumping it through the rod to flush the gap is a total bonus… hell you could vacuum pump it back through the rod when applying it to the outside, probably even making less of a mess…
Lots of suggestions...use magnetic scribe or probe , small air nozzle to get to bottom if possible, electrode of tubing vs solid. As tool and die maker of 43 years, burned vent holes in hardened forging dies as small as .5 mm with rotating electrodes......very interesting.
I love that this super detailed and expensive looking machine for the fix is also brought with what looks like a sweet old hand me down wooden handle hammer.
This is the first time I’ve seen one of these at work. When we break taps, we usually use carbide end mills at high rpms and a very slow speed rate. The bit a little smaller than the drill used for the minor diameter of the tap. Normally with the part left in the fixture or the vise. If you have a part this size already out of the machine or fixture it was in. I could easily see where this equipment would come in handy.
Same. In my last job, we had sinker EDMs, and fast hole machines. But to have them burn out a tap, there was paperwork to fill out, they could never get to it right away...management wanted to know why you broke a tap...removing them by plunging an endmill through them became my go-to method.
@Jesus is LORD stop trying to force religion on everyone. People have to find their own way. Either way Jesus was a con man who masterminded the greatest con of all time. It's hard to believe in something where the people running it keep asking for your money. Besides if you want to belive in a religion probably more feasible that one should believe in the first one. Hinduism.
@Jesus is LORD Your comment dishonours our Lord because it does not relate to the story. Jesus always preached to teach lessons that needed to be learned by those there. Your outburst pleases you and your enthusiasm but upsets those who do not understand your faith. What you have done is thrown pearls of truth into the mud to be crushed by animals who do not appreciate their value. Keep your pearls and only show them to those who recognise their true value. Don’t burst forth. Stop, think, and seek out those who are seeking truth. Otherwise you dishonour our Lords pearls.
I have been removing broken taps for 40 years without damage to the part. One employer bought an EDM machine before I came to work for them. After I showed them how to do it they sold the EDM machine. All you need is technique and about $400 in tools. Happy to teach anyone how it's done.
I never use a power to to remove the broken tap it's to time consuming to set up the X Y and Or X it only take about 1/2 hour to remove a tap as small as 3/8" up to 1" no matter what material it's in.
Amazing. Simply blows my mind that men think about these tools in their heads and draw up plans then create them, build them. Fascinating and really fun to watch them in action.
I've gotten some smaller broken taps out on my milling machine, with the part still in the fixture. I took an old, worn center cutting carbide end mill with about the same diameter as the minor diameter of the threads and ran a drill cycle, extremely slow feed rate (like .0001" per rev or something like that), down into the tap with lots of coolant. Basically ground it down with the end mill. It turns the tap into dust and the end mill still looks basically the same afterwards.
I usually use a small broken carbide endmill I grind a special point to drill out broken taps. I take out broken taps all the time from other machine shops.
When I break a tap I beat my wife and turn to alcoholism ,also curse the universe for my existence. It's not standard engineering practice but it's alternative engineering practice.
Breaking taps is a common occurrence when using 4-40 and 5-40 taps in air hardening tool steel like A2 , M2 and P2. We had a very large 100 gallon tank filled with oil. We would submerge the part along with the electrode and burn out the tap with an EDM machine. Worked every time. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Nice job. I learned that taps that break off while cutting (turning in for right thread) are harder to remove than those turned back to break the chip. My boss told me that that was the first question you had to ask when someone broke the tap. Taps with a bigger inner diameter we drilled a hole in the center to put in an extractor tool, trying to pull it out in its whole. If that didnt work we often referred to what you just did. Breaking off the tap bits could damage the inner thread though.
OMG What a palaver !! We used to simply grip the broken tap using the flutes with a pair of snipe nosed pliers, clamp them tight & then UNSCREW THE TAP from the hole !!!
@@donlarocque5157 Irrelevant, it still has flutes which can be gripped to remove the tap, it's just harder as the amount you can grip is (obviously) far less than on a hand tap or a spiral point tap, but the same methodology that I stated before can still be used.
its always the last hole in an expensive part, that is super urgent, in aluminium tooling plate. found a new use for out galvo laser marker, great to be used as a tap edm, if you remove the laser shroud and manage to get the plate under the lens. Does the trick lovely without any heat to the ally.
Aluminum tooling plate? Tap remover tool with prongs, dry ice, a MAP gas torch and some 3 in 1. That aluminum will grow a lot. Probably enough to loosen the jam especially if you can drop a couple small chunks of dry ice in the hole.
Had that job numerous times in the past but we could machine up different sized electrodes to suit the hole. Found copper pipe good because it could cut through all the tap webs at one go and it quickly because you were only cutting the thickness of the pipe wall.
EDM is very good for high aspect ratio and fine holes. .1 millimeter holes through a 50 mm piece of metal? No problem. I was surprised at how large this electrode is though.
I was the one they called for troubles like this. No fancy equip, just me and a lot of experience to bail them out. This likely took the same amount of time and resorses a torch, hand drill and purpose ground chisels to do the same job but WAY cheaper/less expensive $
As a mere independent motorcycle mechanic, its interesting to see that engineers in far loftier establishments than mine have succumbed to the dreaded broken tap in the workpiece! Nice to see a professional at work making it good again. There will always be broken taps, hence the need to always be able to extract them.
Another great video. Keep it up. Protecting the area around the hole with non-conductive layer of material e.g. some kapton tape with silicone adhesive, could preserve the initial surface quality and eliminate the cleaning of discharge marks ?
I have to wonder how well a thread gauge goes into it! The bolt fits, but a go / nogo is the true test. EDM machines are very cool. Being a tool and die guy, I have my own bag of foolproof tricks… !
Amazing, I can't tell you how many parts I ruined, because of a broken tap. If I knew about this process, could have saved a lot of time and money. Now when I tap I concentrate, and take my time, have not broken a tap, since then.
In my old workplace we used to precut the thread just enough so that we can later finish it by hand. Usually with a part that runs for half an hour, you got enough time to do it.
I'll often do similar, threadmill to rough out and hand tap afterwards to finish. More effective that pissing about getting the threadmill running nice for only one or 2 holes.
I'm from jamaica, I'm a machinist and all I would do there is just weld on the broken tap with a small enough welding rod ,rod type: super weld and after welding above the surface I would have now weld a nut on the broken tap and then screw it out, it's way faster and easier as long as your a good welder
Had broken taps a few times in my life , the worse feeling! I had use oil and a needle nose pliers, to unscrew the broken pieces and other times had to bust up the tap with a chisel and hammer not a great job to do , the trick is to learn when to stop and back off a tap and learn to be gentle with patience, haven’t had a broken tap in 30 years ! People say let’s go and hurry up , I say slow and steady gets the job done right and no heart attacks from broken taps ! LOL
That’s a nice big tap. I probably would have drilled it out with one of my personal home made carbide drills on the large milling machine here. My last resort would be to send to the EDM guy here. I wouldn’t mind having this portable hole popper around though. It definitely would come in handy once in a while.
The difference is this, if you do it yourself and wreck the part, no biggie. If you’re called in to remove the tap without wrecking the part, you use EDM to make absolutely sure you don’t wreck the part, as if you do, you’re quickly approaching a reality where you don’t eat. This is why professionals are so expensive, a big part of the price is the fact that the pro is absorbing the risk, aka. the guarantee that they’ll fix the problem within a timely manner, not the work itself.
A piece of tape wouldn't prevent the scorching of the metal in high temperatures such as those produced in electrical welding. The electricity and accompanying heat generated within the arc is necessary to weaken the structural integrity of the tap so that it may be removed.
Many years in engineering, the largest tap I saw snapped by hand was 64 metre tap, old mate was cleaning the threads after the job was galvanised he was striking the tap wrench with lump of wood, easy to remove due the size... the guy would possibly more suited to mowing grass.
Circle mill the center of the broken tap with a relief cutter (leaving the flutes to be cut free). It's much faster then edm. Also, if you chamfer your holes before tapping you have a better chance of having a tap run true... not sure if going in crooked was the cause of the break.
@@hellbounddeciple have you done this?? From my experience a ball endmill wouldn't make it, as the center of the tool moves the slowest... plunge cutting with that seems like a very bad idea. But I've never done it that way. I should have also said, I used to use a beat up 1/2" .125R relief cutter for this kind of thing, not a new tool.
@@OldishGoalie Sure, if you have a CNC machine to fit it. Or if you have a manual machine to fit it, you can just use a center cutting endmill to cut it out. (Not sure why I've seen several people saying to use a ball end mill. A regular flat bottom carbide endmill works fine.) If you don't have a machine to fit it into, if it's not a carbide tap, and if you want to risk busting your endmill when the tap, or pieces of the tap, break free. There are several reasons why this method is used, mainly the fact that the tap moves while milling and you'll keep breaking endmills.
Breaking taps on a cnc happens. I just machine them out. Taps are hard material to cut but, can be done. Program a circle mill to .003 smaller than the tap- drill size so you don't damage the threads. Select a cutter aprox half the dia of the tap- drill size. Turn the rpm down, using a carbide end mill. Sometimes when the tap breaks while cutting it out it can break the cutter too. Expect to see lots of sparks but keep the air on so as to keep the chip out and heat reduced. it may take a couple if tries but works all the time. I've done it for years and years. Never fails. Sometimes the peices of the tap are still in the groves of the thread but can easily be removed with a carbide scriber. Edm works too but why set it up on another machine when it's already on the cnc mill. Try it.
I've done this 100's of times for multiple customers on both small and large taps without the need of an EDM, my best advice is GET SOME DECENT PUNCHES for starters and patience is the key to successful extraction!
I've removed quite a few broken taps in my day but not that way. As other commenters stated, a carbide end mill, or in my case a carbide drill or diamond core bit. Don't go all the way through, just go deep enough so a broken screw extractor can jam in there & spin it out. If that doesn't work, drill all the way through it & chip the tap flutes with a punch. Doesn't take long.
Couldn’t you use a larger (O/D) bronze rod to eat through the core of the tap? This would allow the threaded flutes to be tapped away with a home made chisel from the thread and remove them. At my last machine shop I was the only one that would work the EDM and I still have my collection of special chisels and pliers. Good job, keep up the good work.
Yes, a larger electrode works much better. It removes the “core” of the broken tap allowing use of a dental pick to remove remaining material from the threads .
This reminds me of my first week in auto shop class. I crossed battery terminals and fried an alternator. My sho teacher said "Great. Now you get to go learn how to rebuild an alternator." I spent 2 days off site at a shop with a friend of his. It was awesome.
It gets it out for sure, but I was surprised that it still "does a number" on the metal surrounding the hole. The best results are obtained by not breaking the tap in the first place! Sometimes accidents just happen no matter the care taken.
Exactly! Now he has to resurface all the ring's top side. I don't think the client (or his supervisor) will like the area around the hole. If only he could put a tape on it, it would be better, I think.
I've done this _way_ too many times, though I had to use a much simpler head without the nice fine control. The coolant was pumped through the electrodes which were molybdenum tubes instead of solid carbon, and the electrode was vibrated up and down inside the head unit rapidly to form the arcs. I turned into the go-to guy for burning broken taps out because I didn't gouge the threads like everyone else lol, I had a special touch with the janky spindle system which had a bad habit of swerving at inopportune times. Those burners are indispensable, the only alternative to getting broken taps that big out is clamping them into a mill to cut the HSS tap out with carbide, which typically wrecks or breaks at _least_ one cutter. I've gotten lucky and backed a few out with a hammer and punch but that's rare, they usually fracture in multiple places and wedge themselves tight. Ohh, the joys of working on giant parts, the fun never ends...
@@HousesandCars I don't know this specific machine brand, I've only ever used one type made by a company called Electro-Arc which I can highly recommend but I'm sure there are cheaper options out there, they aren't exactly cheap but last literally forever, the unit I used was at least 50 years old and had burned through several thousand taps before I got to it, which I promptly doubled lol. If you just want the name of the tool itself they're called EDM tap burners, there are dozens of different companies that make them. If you're in the market for one I would recommend finding the style that pumps coolant through the electrode itself, and if you can use molybdenum electrodes (available from Electro-Arc), they last by far the longest. The brass electrodes commonly used these days (for their low price) burn through very quickly compared to molybdenum, they last at most 1/4 the amount of time as molybdenum and also cut slower, and contamination in the threads increases too, brass disintegrates and leaves oxides all over the place where the molybdenum doesn't.
@@TheExplosiveGuy Wow thank you much. Actually I have this problem... a broken tap inside my engine block and it's 4 inches down. I was thinking about calling around to see if different shops have them in the Dayton area. It would be nice to get this car on the road.
@@HousesandCars I'm not sure what happened, I had a detailed reply for you but youtube must have been hitting the bong again, you know how they are sometimes😉. To recap, you can either find a local machine shop that specializes in larger scale machining or some automotive shops, someone is bound to have a tap burner around you, you will just have to look around. You can also buy a $200-ish chinesium model from amazon or ebay, for your one-off need it might be a bit costly but maybe it will pay off later, assuming you can't find a local shop that can do it for you. Also, if you do end up doing it yourself (even if you don't, make sure whoever does the job follows this advice), if it's 4 inches deep into a threaded hole you are going to need a non-conductive sleeve bushing with coolant pass throughs along the side to guide the electrode down the hole without gouging out the upper hole/threads, think a section of hard plastic tube with an ID of your electrode OD and the same OD as the thread minor ID (or just a nylon bolt with a hole drilled through), with a slit cut down the length along one side, the width of a cut-off wheel on an angle grinder works perfectly. This will guide the electrode straight and centered down the hole and allows coolant to pump through the electrode and back out the hole to flush all the debris out. That deep of a hole will need a lot of coolant flow to remove all the debris created so this _has_ to be done. Of all the tap removal jobs, deep hole removals are the most difficult and risky, so be careful however you proceed.
I saw another EDM setup where they used something like clay or plumbers putty to form a dam that went right up to the edge of the hole. After reading some of the other comments it appears there is more than one way to avoid surface damage, but this one was really clever because the fluid only touched the inside of the hole. They put a grove in one side of the putty leading to a drain tube. The fluid never touched anything except the inside of the hole, and there was no surface cleanup needed. It seems to me that your V-Block idea is a good one, but you could use two of them, one with a drain slot and use plumbers putty to fill in between the hole and the V-Blocks. When they were done there was no surface cleanup beyond wiping it down with a solvent, using a tap and a bottoming tap. Also he was working on parts that cost several 100k, and his rig was not portable. You can probably charge more and get more work too if you slightly improve your process... Best of luck.
The real question is why someone familiar with this method would not mask It off to begin with. It would have taken less time than grinding or stoning and wouldn't have left a pitted surface
I would’ve been at that for an hour or two with an air hose and a punch, trying to back that out. I’m glad there’s an industry in tools to help fix these mess ups. Happens to everyone at least once in the machining industry. Just fess up to your mess up and ask for help. Stuff happens.
@Iniaes In Space The brittleness is not changed. The material is removed. The core of the tap is simply a little bigger than the hole made in to it and it's the left over material that get's destroyed with force.
No one will ever know a machinist's anguish when the tap breaks on the last hole of the last part and you have to mill it out. I nearly walked out after breaking a 1/4-20 tap on a stainless steel part. The boss ordered thread Mills the next day. Lol
@@inconel7185 thread mills are ussually more cost effective They are expensive but they hold 10 times longer than conventional tools We only use them since 2016
I am inexperienced compared to my coworkers but I saw they kept breaking their taps in hard steel and recommended a thread mill ...I earned a little respect after that
@@geminisduerme5266 thread mills are overall better and more cost effective For example we had go make 600 parts which each had 6×M5 taps Conventional taps broke after 50-60 parts And thread mills held for 450 parts till we completed the contract and i think it would have held even longer The thread mill was 120 euros And the amount of taps we broke with the Conventional ones took us around 280 euros So idk I would never go back from thread mills
I have seen this done on a job sites hardened bolt and carbide drill was broke trying to drill it out. The EDM was a different design or manufacturer but portable, the technician use a type of wide vinyl tape and plumbers putty to protect the surface. I was his assigned helper and learned a ton cool tricks. He made three over lapping holes, pulled the core out and the broken carbide drill, made three sided key shaft, and pour in liquid butane, installed the three keyed shaft and turned the shaft with two pipe wrenches.
@@DanPetrePhotos MONEY IS ALWAYS THE PRIORITY!!! LOL If you buy this type of machine, the price goes down every time you use it. Obviously, its probably not the first choice out in the field on a pipeline or aircraft engine, but its a nice tool to have in the shop. I removed thousands of broken bolts and tap s and never saw this way before, but its pretty cool.
My dude, you have the craziest machine that I didn't even know existed, yet you use a carbide burr as a punch, and your actual punch is the jankiest thing I've ever seen, how is the disparity so great? Please, get yourself a decent set of punches. Cool stuff BTW.
Pretty sure they originally did. And just for recutting the last time its perfectly fine to do that by hand. With a mill theres no way youd get the thread started in the same position anyways.
@@dalesmth1 it can still happen whenthe tap is dull or there was a chip in the hole. Maybe programmingerror, maybe the tap wasnt cooled properly. There are so many things that can go wrong on a mill as well, we dont know what happened.
A cool trick I learned is to use keyboard cleaner. You flip the can upside down & spray the tap. The chemical inside the cleaner will freeze the tap. Then I would use a chisel & break the tap out. Has been working wonders for me.
i tought when he was making the 2nd hole that he was making a slot to stick something in like a screwdriver. Maybe use 2 thinner electrodes and make the holes off centre so you can insert a tool to make the tap turn .. cant they make the tap so its entirely square .. not just the tip heh.
@@apsdev step the electrode up to a few thousandths smaller than the minor diameter of the threads and it would be cleaned out in one pass. It would take a little more setup time but overall would be quicker.
Yeah no offense to this guy running the EDM machine, but besides running that equipment he seems really sloppy/unprepared or maybe just inexperienced. Use the right tool for the job...
That's what I thought.... That was totally overkill to remove a broken tap. (tab? Lmao) We do this a lot on aluminum racing blocks and have never seen anything like that before. That's like using a plasma cutter to cut a pilot hole in a piece of wood....
The use of a carpenter’s hammer was.a clue we’re not dealing with a master machinist. Sorry, but this looks like heck. I can only imagine the threads were equally corroded and likely molecularly compromised. Thumbs down.
I have been in industrial maintenance for over 25 years and have removed a few broken taps by crushing them with a good punch and a hammer, I’ll bet I could get that one too!
Good question. There may be a suitable tape for that purpose, just call the 3M rep and find out. But if not, you'd think that a selection of various sized hole masks would be useful. Then again, there may be more to it than meets the eye.
@@MatthewMelson I know the surface rust is easily removed but that's not what i was referring to. 9:20 you can clearly see it's been buffed and the surface finish is still very bad and looks like it's pitted pretty deep. Funnily enough I've actually worked on an EDM for a year at my old job so i know giving it a good sand blast will make it look nice too but that looks like severe pitting. It also seems like an issue easily mitigated by covering the surface with a varnish or tape.
Great video nice equipment , but unfortunately most of us do not have access to such technology, and have to make use of what you have to hand . Thats when the creative juices get stimulated .
Some 25 - 30 years ago I would take our discrepant parts (with broken taps) to a place in Gardena Ca called Tap EX. Jon was a master at his craft, his success rate was 100% and saved our company many times over. Jon also offered a mobile service that benefited the local aerospace and refineries in the area. In extreme cases it was easier to bring the edm equipment to the site versus the opposite...
I was supervising a new employee that broke a 5/8 tap on a $2500 stainless shaft. He asked me if I was going to fire him. I told him: think I'm stupid? Now you know how to break a tap, and you also learned what not to do to avoid breaking a tap; that is called experience. What do you think is going to happen if I hire a new guy with no experience?
Wise employer😁😁😁
@Neander Thal in part, you are correct. But probabilities to break a tap, lessen by about 70%. Remember: nothing Is absolute.
Smart
That is the kind of reaction you see in a new employee who has worked for some shitty employers or supervisors in the past. He'll get over the past experiences after working under a boss that is more interested in facilitating the new troop's knowledge and training than throwing him under the bus for every screw up.
I remember what happened when I did it. He said - why did I go and break it? I said - I didn't have anything better to do than to drill it out. That's exactly what I did for the next few hours.
I love the fact there’s a whole industry of tools that exist only to fix other broken tools mistakes
Actually its used for machining parts, but it has other uses like this
@@aljosasinadinoski6032 ...I can't see how THIS particular setup would be any good at actually MAKING anything- but if you are referring to the technique of "ElectroDischarge Machining", you're quite right.
@@daleburrell6273 it can be uesed for making start holes in hardened steel for WireEDM
P
My neighbor had a motorcycle with a broken dowel pin in the crankshaft. (Rotary valve Kawasaki.) A machine shop turned an EDM electrode to the exact diameter needed using a lathe and used EDM to cut the pin out to the depth shown on the print in the shop manual for the bike. The EDM cut it perfectly. This was about 1969.
I haven't had lots of experiences with broken taps but I discovered something amazing during my first encounter. I broke a tap off in an aluminum supercharger. I called machine shop they refused to work on it. I researched and found out alum powder used to pickle veggies mixed with water and heated will dissolve ferrous metals like steel and iron but will not harm nonferrous metals like aluminum. I tried it and dissolved the tap completely for less than $10. Pretty interesting
interesting， I will try it in the future， thanks！
Some1 like so i can come back to this some where in my life when i need it
well done🌊
That's pretty darn kwl
I won't lie I read this comment like whaaaat naaaaa
Then searched it and wow that's a bloody brilliant way of doing it
Lots of how too guides on TH-cam to confirm what you say ! Makes me want to break a drill bit into some ally just to try it 😅🤷
My Grandfather was a toolmaker and had a set of taps that had a hole cored down the centre with a reverse thread. In the kit we’re these recovery tools, like a reverse thread bolt with a shoulder. You were to wind the recovery bit down into the central hole until the shoulder stopped it going any further. You then kept winding and the snapped part would back out. I think 1/4” was the smallest tap with a tiny recovery bit. He proudly boasted he’d won them as an apprentice, used them regularly and never blew a bit in 45yrs. Sometimes, seeing him work metals in his seventies it was wholly credible.😉
That's the route I would of took personally.
That is exactly how it should be done, not smashing it into pieces. First a hole with the edm, the a reverse tap used to remove stuck broken bolts etc...
Obviously the two commenters have never worked in fab shops or machine shops. When a bit gets stuck like this in a solid steel part like this, you aren’t going to just reverse the tab and pull it on out. The steel will shrink and bind it up after it cools down. And other factors are at play as well
@@coltraindontworryboutit9990 It's M20: plenty place to edm a hole and use reverse tapped conical bit to unscrew it. The hole will shrink the tap's volume. Anyway, you are right that other factors play as well, but using a hammer and chisel are the last resort. He just was lucky not to damage the thread. This shows how you can make a hole in such hard metal using an Edm, but after the Edm, other tools exist. He had to use the Edm 3 times, normally you do this in 1 go with a recovery bit. Anyway,, the guy that breaks an M20 tap, was not using the right tool nor torque.
@@coltraindontworryboutit9990 One of the most difficult problems we come across.
Broken taps are why toolmakers and machinist drink .
Can confirm 😂
Man i Had that Broken Tap in a Roll of really hard castiron. It makes me sleepless 😴
I wouldn’t know, I’ve never broken a tap😁😂
@@perceive8159 i am glad u didnt , hope it wont happen
@@perceive8159 1st yr apprentice or a form grinder ?
I am also a CNC-EDM machine operator in taiwan, and this is one of my masterpiece, I also can operate a surface grinding machine for it is very important to our job to prepare or shape an electrode used for the machining. Tapping or make a repair like that on the video are one of our job. I really missed it!
Hurco jurco made twain
来大陆cnc 放电🎉～大陆工厂多😅……你还可以去台湾公司当领导
I so understand that sickening and sinking feeling you get when you break a tap off during one of the last operations of making an expensive part! So much easier to fix today then when I started working as a machinist!
YES, In my days as in the deburring / finishing dept of a 40person shop w/ no edm they would always send the part to DEBURRING for me to get out and make like new..Retired now YEAH..
The worst feeling is getting a tap out of an expensive jnconel part, then immediately breaking off a defective tap in the hole. Back to EDM for the next few hours…
Yea but we are the few in the world that can extract them old school out in the bush.
I literally had just one tap left, measured that i need to go one milimeter deeper and that last bit made it break
Now it's just more time on the part rather than scrapping it.Those edm burners are awsome, they will even burn out carbide taps.
if you spray on a zinc laiden epoxy paint over the work area the outflow passes ( just plug the hole with your finger) you won't have any ugly pitting on top, just wipe it off with thinner after. Just try it ;) takes 2 extra minutes to do and makes the result look perfect for the client! That aside nicely executed!
It just looks such a bad way of removing it! All that chipping bits out with a hammer and punch, marking and levering against the threads is bad practice. Could've got 10 broken taps out in that time with some nickel rods and a few bolts to weld on 🤔
Use castrol tap wax and grind drill bit offcenter will open hole little larger help keep tap from blowing but only do with bigger size taps engineers say tap will pull and could risk life but 33 years never saw anything happen unless eyebolt was 80 years old and bent alwYs hide when osha come thru along with nylon straps only used for flipping parts over osha see snag and have scrap out why usa get n ass kicked by china
This is about the most expensive and technical way you could possibly do this job. Especially with a 20mm tap. My go to for tap removal was always TIG welding. I would create a puddle of metal as wide as I could make it without contacting the threads. Then keep building and building until I had nub protruding from the hole about 15mm. When done welding I would lube the hole with penetrating oil. Then grab the nub with a pipe wrench and back the tap out. Depending on the size of the tap, it would usually take about 10min start to finish. Worst case, it would break off again and I would have another go. Removed hundreds of broken bolts and taps this way. Very effective.
Can't weld to a tungsten carbide tap tho, hence why we use tungsten electrodes
@@keatmany2k5I was wondering why you were going down the overkill route. At first I thought it was just for demonstration purposes, but I never considered that they were tungsten carbide taps, no wonder it broke.
@mikeydudek2885 the tap in this video was not a tungsten carbide tap. It was a hss tap. The guy that posted that comment is a dumb fuck. Tig welding method is great
@@Yeakerr а я просто высверлил его простой дрелью и сверлом по кафелю. рассверлил середину а половинки так достал
Sure, this is a good idea and doesn't take time or effort, and there is another way that he could make a hole in the centre of the tap, then put a squared or reverse threads tap to take it off and unscrew the broken tap, it's so simple .
The key to tapping stainless is more frequent reversing and backing out completely and removing all the debris. I learned to not use taps too many times on stainless, instead grab a new tap after 5 to 10 uses and move that used tap to your mild steel case. I still broke plenty in my line of work but always used another sharpened tap to remove the broken one. Saved a lot of time with these two practices.
if the tap has a shine or makes any noise,get it the hell out of the part....that "KINK" sound makes your asshole clench up😆
@@trillrifaxegrindor4411 I worked at a automation shop running a manual mill, building custom robotic machines and was one of 4 machinists there. I was always into the more tedious work and thinking outside of the box. I got stuck with setting up compound angles with a vise inside a vise and trickier stuff like that. The most puckering job I did was drilling and tapping mount holes in some 300 series stainless gripper jaws. The holes were m1.6x0.35, freaking tiny. The guy who ran the wire edm quit and I was the only one willing to take his place. Taught myself to run the edm and honestly had a blast doing that. Crazy what can be done with a edm
@@trillrifaxegrindor4411 that "oh f@ck" moment 😄
I used to tap 4" bearing cap holes on an 18 ft forged and machined $500k crankshaft for 5000 hp diesel engine. Using radial drill press. Was paid about $8/hr (1979). Never broke a tap but was always nervous as hell. Bottoming tap out is very common way to break it.
Stainless is the damn devil
That sounds like a very angry Geiger counter.
I don’t use tap’s all the time but after 21 years of using them I can honestly say I have a love hate for them. As an electrician it’s very convenient to make your own hole when needed but sometimes I have to ask if it’s worth it because most of these taps are made like garbage. I had to tap a couple stainless cabinets before and every one day scepter the last I had an issue with. Now I let the young guys do it. When they mess up they give me that look but they know me. They know I’m not the one to freak out. I’m the one that makes them do the challenging work so they get experience and build confidence while applying their trade. And I never knew such a machine existed! Totally cool!
You could try applying adhesive plastic tape around the area, it should prevent the surrounding metal from being damaged by the process?
That's how electric etching is done, you apply an adhesive plastic tape with cutouts in the shape of the etched mark.
Try nail polish. 👍
Kapton tape is perfect. Its rated at 500deg F and would perfectly mask the area and the adhesive would not leave any gummy residue. It peels off perfectly.
@@Mike-ff7ib knapton tape is amazing stuff
I personally use zinc epoxy paint , it's tough to damage , slightly conductive but comes off with solvent later leaving no trace , tape sorta works but in a shop environment occasionally gets a crease or a bubble or a pocket under it and then the spot still gets damaged after so I tried various paints and epoxy paint meant for painting iron after welding or galvanized steel etc ended up working like it was made for the task
The top of that part is a mess, it certainly wanted protecting by something, kapton tape sounds a good try for starters.
I like the copper tube idea too to slice through the webs of the tap, that would be beautiful to see.
This takes me back. I was everyone’s favourite apprentice because I saved everyone’s work by getting out all the broken taps.
@Jun Cali getting them stuck?
👏
You must be my twin at work, LOL.
Use helical tornado down use old junk carbidr tool grind relife shank and flood hell out of spin tool fast and helical down bout .001 at a time but helical dia of hole 5hen tap will blow out pick out rest watch when get towards end tap as let go will break tool and goug wall bit
Removing busted anything is an art as much as science. I learned many techniques while in the Navy. On an all steel ship. It made me an indispensable shop hand. Absolutely vital skill.
We had an edm collecting dust no one wanted to "figure" it out. So I took the initiative. These things are worth their weight in gold. Holy smokes I can't even tell you how many parts I fixed over the years. Every shop should have one imo.
Also a tool room.
What is a tab? Also, twice the depth to the diameter of the "tap"
Edm I'd the thing you name it lol it can do it edm machining is still the top dog to hard materials wire eroding machines make taps lol dies all sorts yep it's an art form new a guy from wetland helicopters he used to run one total respect
@@SarahandJim1 I kept noticing too. It is poorly transcribed... tab =tap
It’s useful more than just fixing tools. Imagine drilling holes on harden parts. I have suppliers plugged the holes all day long. Makes some tough job much easier with the right tool.
When I'm EDM'ing broken taps I use a thin wall copper or brass tube as an electrode of a suitable diameter that it can cut all the webs at once. No chiselling necessary !
Plus get the dielectric/electrolyte right to the bottom to flush the crud out of a deep hole
Brilliant
That thought crossed my mind, Why use a solid Rod, if all You want is a thin Cut to make manageable pieces… and pumping it through the rod to flush the gap is a total bonus… hell you could vacuum pump it back through the rod when applying it to the outside, probably even making less of a mess…
TAP
Lots of suggestions...use magnetic scribe or probe , small air nozzle to get to bottom if possible, electrode of tubing vs solid. As tool and die maker of 43 years, burned vent holes in hardened forging dies as small as .5 mm with rotating electrodes......very interesting.
I love that this super detailed and expensive looking machine for the fix is also brought with what looks like a sweet old hand me down wooden handle hammer.
This is the first time I’ve seen one of these at work. When we break taps, we usually use carbide end mills at high rpms and a very slow speed rate. The bit a little smaller than the drill used for the minor diameter of the tap. Normally with the part left in the fixture or the vise. If you have a part this size already out of the machine or fixture it was in. I could easily see where this equipment would come in handy.
i often use a ball nose and not very high rpm,under a 1000 rpm
We do it the same way, using carbide endmills to remove broken tabs but i could see this come in handy in removing a broken carbid tap.
Same. In my last job, we had sinker EDMs, and fast hole machines. But to have them burn out a tap, there was paperwork to fill out, they could never get to it right away...management wanted to know why you broke a tap...removing them by plunging an endmill through them became my go-to method.
@Jesus is LORD stop trying to force religion on everyone. People have to find their own way. Either way Jesus was a con man who masterminded the greatest con of all time. It's hard to believe in something where the people running it keep asking for your money. Besides if you want to belive in a religion probably more feasible that one should believe in the first one. Hinduism.
@Jesus is LORD Your comment dishonours our Lord because it does not relate to the story. Jesus always preached to teach lessons that needed to be learned by those there. Your outburst pleases you and your enthusiasm but upsets those who do not understand your faith. What you have done is thrown pearls of truth into the mud to be crushed by animals who do not appreciate their value. Keep your pearls and only show them to those who recognise their true value. Don’t burst forth. Stop, think, and seek out those who are seeking truth. Otherwise you dishonour our Lords pearls.
I don't know if I'd be entirely satisfied seeing that pitted triangle around the threaded hole in my brand new space capsule.
Right. Buncha hacks
Could have shielded the surface with sheet aluminum and .75 hole dia in sheet.
RTV it lol
You won’t get a job at Boeing with that attitude mate
How did that happen? Is it the water base medium?
Any machinery that has a claw hammer in the tool kit is bound to be good
old school wood
Who has a claw hammer in an engineering tool box, obviously proper technical work this
I have been removing broken taps for 40 years without damage to the part. One employer bought an EDM machine before I came to work for them. After I showed them how to do it they sold the EDM machine. All you need is technique and about $400 in tools. Happy to teach anyone how it's done.
I never use a power to to remove the broken tap it's to time consuming to set up the X Y and Or X it only take about 1/2 hour to remove a tap as small as 3/8" up to 1" no matter what material it's in.
I actually managed to do it twice using the tappy, tap, tap process.
Tell us your secrets
You’re an old pro!
Make a video, put it on TH-cam, earn money from it.👍
Amazing. Simply blows my mind that men think about these tools in their heads and draw up plans then create them, build them. Fascinating and really fun to watch them in action.
Strange thing : women never do that. But since they don’t seem to need men anymore, I wonder how they get their broken taps out … 🤔
@@Stefan_Van_pellicom amen 🙏
I've gotten some smaller broken taps out on my milling machine, with the part still in the fixture. I took an old, worn center cutting carbide end mill with about the same diameter as the minor diameter of the threads and ran a drill cycle, extremely slow feed rate (like .0001" per rev or something like that), down into the tap with lots of coolant. Basically ground it down with the end mill. It turns the tap into dust and the end mill still looks basically the same afterwards.
I usually use a small broken carbide endmill I grind a special point to drill out broken taps. I take out broken taps all the time from other machine shops.
Yes it works great done it many times
Did same thing in a drill press
When I break a tap I beat my wife and turn to alcoholism ,also curse the universe for my existence. It's not standard engineering practice but it's alternative engineering practice.
@@thelastgearbender1158 This is the way
This has got to be the most interesting extraction process I've seen! Thank you!
Breaking taps is a common occurrence when using 4-40 and 5-40 taps in air hardening tool steel like A2 , M2 and P2. We had a very large 100 gallon tank filled with oil. We would submerge the part along with the electrode and burn out the tap
with an EDM machine. Worked every time.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Haha ... EDM machine was my first thought when I saw the video thumbnail!
Cool little EDM machine. Could almost smell the burning oil even after nearly 40 years of being away from them.
Nice job. I learned that taps that break off while cutting (turning in for right thread) are harder to remove than those turned back to break the chip. My boss told me that that was the first question you had to ask when someone broke the tap. Taps with a bigger inner diameter we drilled a hole in the center to put in an extractor tool, trying to pull it out in its whole. If that didnt work we often referred to what you just did. Breaking off the tap bits could damage the inner thread though.
OMG What a palaver !!
We used to simply grip the broken tap using the flutes with a pair of snipe nosed pliers, clamp them tight & then UNSCREW THE TAP from the hole !!!
It's a spiral tap.
@@donlarocque5157 Irrelevant, it still has flutes which can be gripped to remove the tap, it's just harder as the amount you can grip is (obviously) far less than on a hand tap or a spiral point tap, but the same methodology that I stated before can still be used.
Yup that's the first try. Then add oil and heat till it smokes than try again. If that fails then get the burner. 😂
@@donlarocque5157you can even use scissors on a spiral to twist it out this is drama
Ah yes, the man with the machine, that does the thing.
its always the last hole in an expensive part, that is super urgent, in aluminium tooling plate. found a new use for out galvo laser marker, great to be used as a tap edm, if you remove the laser shroud and manage to get the plate under the lens. Does the trick lovely without any heat to the ally.
I was just thinking about using “freakin’ lasers”
Aluminum tooling plate? Tap remover tool with prongs, dry ice, a MAP gas torch and some 3 in 1. That aluminum will grow a lot. Probably enough to loosen the jam especially if you can drop a couple small chunks of dry ice in the hole.
Mark Whelan
Or just drill the holes with freakn’ lasers
@@maxsolo2652 easier said than done. No lasers in the shop 30 years ago either.
As a retired Aerospace prototype Machinist, nice job I love the portable EDM
Had that job numerous times in the past but we could machine up different sized electrodes to suit the hole. Found copper pipe good because it could cut through all the tap webs at one go and it quickly because you were only cutting the thickness of the pipe wall.
That is clever!
That's an awesome idea
Where this machine is avaliable I need to buy
Never heard or seen this process before very interesting
Yeah same! I've also spent many hours drilling and hammering out broken taps lol.
EDM is very good for high aspect ratio and fine holes. .1 millimeter holes through a 50 mm piece of metal? No problem.
I was surprised at how large this electrode is though.
If you want to learn more, check out this video by Applied Science. It explains the process very thoroughly: th-cam.com/video/rpHYBz7ToII/w-d-xo.html
I was the one they called for troubles like this. No fancy equip, just me and a lot of experience to bail them out. This likely took the same amount of time and resorses a torch, hand drill and purpose ground chisels to do the same job but WAY cheaper/less expensive $
Same, when you break alot of stuff you have to learn how to fix it 😂
@@robinhedlundkarlsson5184 My dad taught me the difference between pro's and rookies is the pro's can fix their mistakes, LOL.
@@TomokosEnterprize sounds like we have the same dad :)
@@robinhedlundkarlsson5184 A couple lucky fellas for sure EH !
It's a good thing the mag base works on that material.
Great save! 👍
It wouldn't be a big deal to clamp a steel plate onto the workpiece.... there are even holes tapped in it !! 🙄😂
I'd tape the metal. The finishing looks weird and probably etched. Adding extra works.
súper inteligente!
I would use stick welder and/or vice grips with nicer looking results. How do people afford these toys
Im guessing they didn't care about the surface and the taps were used for moving the tool
As a mere independent motorcycle mechanic, its interesting to see that engineers in far loftier establishments than mine have succumbed to the dreaded broken tap in the workpiece!
Nice to see a professional at work making it good again.
There will always be broken taps, hence the need to always be able to extract them.
That’s a beautiful thing! A human defeating a formidable foe! Congratulations! Victory!
-Use tabs to remove foreign substances from the threads
*breaks tap again*
Thanks for the nightmare fuel. The only thing worse than a broken tap is work hardened holes!
He shouldve used a pick and a magnifying glass, thats what i used to do before running the tap in the thread.
Another great video. Keep it up. Protecting the area around the hole with non-conductive layer of material e.g. some kapton tape with silicone adhesive, could preserve the initial surface quality and eliminate the cleaning of discharge marks ?
I wonder what diaelectric fluid he was using, and whether a change would eliminate those surface marks. Oil instead?
@@TEFox It probably is oil, sinker EDMs use it in most cases.
he should do something - those marks were deep
This was such an interesting video, I never knew of such a trade. Excellent and clean work!
I have to wonder how well a thread gauge goes into it! The bolt fits, but a go / nogo is the true test. EDM machines are very cool. Being a tool and die guy, I have my own bag of foolproof tricks… !
I've had pretty good luck with a left hand carbide spade drill if the broken tap has a flat place big enough to start it.
I just learned what EDM machining is. Fascinating stuff!
Amazing, I can't tell you how many parts I ruined, because of a broken tap. If I knew about this process, could have saved a lot of time and money. Now when I tap I concentrate, and take my time, have not broken a tap, since then.
In my old workplace we used to precut the thread just enough so that we can later finish it by hand. Usually with a part that runs for half an hour, you got enough time to do it.
I'll often do similar, threadmill to rough out and hand tap afterwards to finish. More effective that pissing about getting the threadmill running nice for only one or 2 holes.
Great work! I learnt something new today and have now read up a bit on EDM machines, thanks for the video.
I'm from jamaica, I'm a machinist and all I would do there is just weld on the broken tap with a small enough welding rod ,rod type: super weld and after welding above the surface I would have now weld a nut on the broken tap and then screw it out, it's way faster and easier as long as your a good welder
The key to not breaking a tap is to stop 1/2 turn just before it breaks.
lol
And back off frequently.
I used to operate ecd and ecm machines so this video was really interesting to watch as I couldn't see this process while the machine doors were shut
What are the fucking odds! 😆
Had broken taps a few times in my life , the worse feeling! I had use oil and a needle nose pliers, to unscrew the broken pieces and other times had to bust up the tap with a chisel and hammer not a great job to do , the trick is to learn when to stop and back off a tap and learn to be gentle with patience, haven’t had a broken tap in 30 years ! People say let’s go and hurry up , I say slow and steady gets the job done right and no heart attacks from broken taps ! LOL
That’s a nice big tap. I probably would have drilled it out with one of my personal home made carbide drills on the large milling machine here. My last resort would be to send to the EDM guy here. I wouldn’t mind having this portable hole popper around though. It definitely would come in handy once in a while.
Doesn't even need special tools, just a carbide endmill slightly smaller than the hole would do the trick.
I always just used single flute carbide drill bits to get out broken taps.
But obviously you can't charge a fortune like this guy, if you do it simple lol
Was about to ask why the hell is he doing it like this...€£¥ of course!
@@jstengineering1513 very true! 😁
The difference is this, if you do it yourself and wreck the part, no biggie. If you’re called in to remove the tap without wrecking the part, you use EDM to make absolutely sure you don’t wreck the part, as if you do, you’re quickly approaching a reality where you don’t eat. This is why professionals are so expensive, a big part of the price is the fact that the pro is absorbing the risk, aka. the guarantee that they’ll fix the problem within a timely manner, not the work itself.
@@sstorholm i’ve never wrecked a part with a carbide drill bit, that’s why you use a carbide drill bit.
Ram e.d.m. For the win! The majority of machinist I talk to don’t even know that ram exists.
A peace of tape around the hole might help prevent pitting around it just a thought.
Who cares
@@LSXperts72
Depends on what the surface is used for.
@@LSXperts72 the customer
@@LSXperts72 I do it might not matter to you but the customer might care too.
A piece of tape wouldn't prevent the scorching of the metal in high temperatures such as those produced in electrical welding. The electricity and accompanying heat generated within the arc is necessary to weaken the structural integrity of the tap so that it may be removed.
I’m surprised that part is only $5000 haha
I know. The material itself.
Not wrong. Just the material here in Aus would set you back that much.
im surprised it actualy is 5000 , my company would make it for legit 200-500
@@GoxMM unless your company makes it out of paper you can’t get a part like that out of aluminum for that cheap
5000€ part??? Made in China right?😂😂😂
Many years in engineering, the largest tap I saw snapped by hand was 64 metre tap, old mate was cleaning the threads after the job was galvanised he was striking the tap wrench with lump of wood, easy to remove due the size... the guy would possibly more suited to mowing grass.
That was neat. I've never seen electricity used to weaken metal like that. Thank you for sharing James Park
Spark erosion can set electricity higher use rough electrode then finish trode better turn elec down will undercut if not
Circle mill the center of the broken tap with a relief cutter (leaving the flutes to be cut free). It's much faster then edm. Also, if you chamfer your holes before tapping you have a better chance of having a tap run true... not sure if going in crooked was the cause of the break.
skip the circle mill. Use a ball endmill down the center.
@@hellbounddeciple have you done this?? From my experience a ball endmill wouldn't make it, as the center of the tool moves the slowest... plunge cutting with that seems like a very bad idea. But I've never done it that way. I should have also said, I used to use a beat up 1/2" .125R relief cutter for this kind of thing, not a new tool.
@@OldishGoalie Sure, if you have a CNC machine to fit it. Or if you have a manual machine to fit it, you can just use a center cutting endmill to cut it out. (Not sure why I've seen several people saying to use a ball end mill. A regular flat bottom carbide endmill works fine.) If you don't have a machine to fit it into, if it's not a carbide tap, and if you want to risk busting your endmill when the tap, or pieces of the tap, break free. There are several reasons why this method is used, mainly the fact that the tap moves while milling and you'll keep breaking endmills.
@@OldishGoalie yes,ball nose endmill and lots of air,using the lowest feed and LISTENING
Breaking taps on a cnc happens. I just machine them out. Taps are hard material to cut but, can be done. Program a circle mill to .003 smaller than the tap- drill size so you don't damage the threads. Select a cutter aprox half the dia of the tap- drill size. Turn the rpm down, using a carbide end mill. Sometimes when the tap breaks while cutting it out it can break the cutter too. Expect to see lots of sparks but keep the air on so as to keep the chip out and heat reduced. it may take a couple if tries but works all the time. I've done it for years and years. Never fails. Sometimes the peices of the tap are still in the groves of the thread but can easily be removed with a carbide scriber. Edm works too but why set it up on another machine when it's already on the cnc mill. Try it.
Everybody gangsta till the carbide bit breaks inside the piece
You can EDM carbide.
@@Split10uk Electronic Dance Music? 😄
@@JordanBeagle Sure..... ;p
I've done this 100's of times for multiple customers on both small and large taps without the need of an EDM, my best advice is GET SOME DECENT PUNCHES for starters and patience is the key to successful extraction!
I've removed quite a few broken taps in my day but not that way. As other commenters stated, a carbide end mill, or in my case a carbide drill or diamond core bit. Don't go all the way through, just go deep enough so a broken screw extractor can jam in there & spin it out. If that doesn't work, drill all the way through it & chip the tap flutes with a punch. Doesn't take long.
That was amazing. Didn’t realise that exists
Couldn’t you use a larger (O/D) bronze rod to eat through the core of the tap? This would allow the threaded flutes to be tapped away with a home made chisel from the thread and remove them. At my last machine shop I was the only one that would work the EDM and I still have my collection of special chisels and pliers.
Good job, keep up the good work.
Yes, a larger electrode works much better. It removes the “core” of the broken tap allowing use of a dental pick to remove remaining material from the threads .
Wow that was one of the coolest machines in the world
Although this video has no narration , I can still hear the eco's of the swearing when that tap snapped.... 😂
I would have to laugh like doctor evil every time this fired up lol
Gab a pair of 50mm goggles.
This reminds me of my first week in auto shop class. I crossed battery terminals and fried an alternator. My sho teacher said "Great. Now you get to go learn how to rebuild an alternator." I spent 2 days off site at a shop with a friend of his. It was awesome.
It gets it out for sure, but I was surprised that it still "does a number" on the metal surrounding the hole. The best results are obtained by not breaking the tap in the first place! Sometimes accidents just happen no matter the care taken.
Exactly! Now he has to resurface all the ring's top side. I don't think the client (or his supervisor) will like the area around the hole. If only he could put a tape on it, it would be better, I think.
I've done this _way_ too many times, though I had to use a much simpler head without the nice fine control. The coolant was pumped through the electrodes which were molybdenum tubes instead of solid carbon, and the electrode was vibrated up and down inside the head unit rapidly to form the arcs. I turned into the go-to guy for burning broken taps out because I didn't gouge the threads like everyone else lol, I had a special touch with the janky spindle system which had a bad habit of swerving at inopportune times. Those burners are indispensable, the only alternative to getting broken taps that big out is clamping them into a mill to cut the HSS tap out with carbide, which typically wrecks or breaks at _least_ one cutter. I've gotten lucky and backed a few out with a hammer and punch but that's rare, they usually fracture in multiple places and wedge themselves tight. Ohh, the joys of working on giant parts, the fun never ends...
3-flute drills kill HSS-E taps securely and a bit cheaper than an endmill :) Just use the drill as if you had to drill into something with 58HRC ;)
Do you know the name of this machine?
@@HousesandCars I don't know this specific machine brand, I've only ever used one type made by a company called Electro-Arc which I can highly recommend but I'm sure there are cheaper options out there, they aren't exactly cheap but last literally forever, the unit I used was at least 50 years old and had burned through several thousand taps before I got to it, which I promptly doubled lol. If you just want the name of the tool itself they're called EDM tap burners, there are dozens of different companies that make them. If you're in the market for one I would recommend finding the style that pumps coolant through the electrode itself, and if you can use molybdenum electrodes (available from Electro-Arc), they last by far the longest. The brass electrodes commonly used these days (for their low price) burn through very quickly compared to molybdenum, they last at most 1/4 the amount of time as molybdenum and also cut slower, and contamination in the threads increases too, brass disintegrates and leaves oxides all over the place where the molybdenum doesn't.
@@TheExplosiveGuy Wow thank you much. Actually I have this problem... a broken tap inside my engine block and it's 4 inches down. I was thinking about calling around to see if different shops have them in the Dayton area. It would be nice to get this car on the road.
@@HousesandCars I'm not sure what happened, I had a detailed reply for you but youtube must have been hitting the bong again, you know how they are sometimes😉. To recap, you can either find a local machine shop that specializes in larger scale machining or some automotive shops, someone is bound to have a tap burner around you, you will just have to look around. You can also buy a $200-ish chinesium model from amazon or ebay, for your one-off need it might be a bit costly but maybe it will pay off later, assuming you can't find a local shop that can do it for you.
Also, if you do end up doing it yourself (even if you don't, make sure whoever does the job follows this advice), if it's 4 inches deep into a threaded hole you are going to need a non-conductive sleeve bushing with coolant pass throughs along the side to guide the electrode down the hole without gouging out the upper hole/threads, think a section of hard plastic tube with an ID of your electrode OD and the same OD as the thread minor ID (or just a nylon bolt with a hole drilled through), with a slit cut down the length along one side, the width of a cut-off wheel on an angle grinder works perfectly. This will guide the electrode straight and centered down the hole and allows coolant to pump through the electrode and back out the hole to flush all the debris out. That deep of a hole will need a lot of coolant flow to remove all the debris created so this _has_ to be done. Of all the tap removal jobs, deep hole removals are the most difficult and risky, so be careful however you proceed.
Bu işlemi zodik kullanmadan yaptığında, gerçek bir usta olursun.
I saw another EDM setup where they used something like clay or plumbers putty to form a dam that went right up to the edge of the hole. After reading some of the other comments it appears there is more than one way to avoid surface damage, but this one was really clever because the fluid only touched the inside of the hole. They put a grove in one side of the putty leading to a drain tube. The fluid never touched anything except the inside of the hole, and there was no surface cleanup needed.
It seems to me that your V-Block idea is a good one, but you could use two of them, one with a drain slot and use plumbers putty to fill in between the hole and the V-Blocks.
When they were done there was no surface cleanup beyond wiping it down with a solvent, using a tap and a bottoming tap. Also he was working on parts that cost several 100k, and his rig was not portable. You can probably charge more and get more work too if you slightly improve your process... Best of luck.
It would also be easy to just make a few "dams" in different diameter with outlets and have them on hand
I was onboard, and then the grinder on the machined surface threw me off😭
Yeah I would have stoned it down, of course I don't know the flatness or any of the other tolerances so 🤷♂️
Scotch Brite pad
All the youtube mechanics are at it again I see
The real question is why someone familiar with this method would not mask It off to begin with. It would have taken less time than grinding or stoning and wouldn't have left a pitted surface
That wasn't a grinding wheel. Looks like a scotch brite type of material. Notice no sparks, and it did nothing to the light pitting around the hole.
I would’ve been at that for an hour or two with an air hose and a punch, trying to back that out. I’m glad there’s an industry in tools to help fix these mess ups. Happens to everyone at least once in the machining industry. Just fess up to your mess up and ask for help. Stuff happens.
Nice job! That EDM machine is a lifesaver!
Electronic Dance Music Machine! Yea!
M20 is also easily removed with a cheap plasma cutter.
@Iniaes In Space The brittleness is not changed. The material is removed. The core of the tap is simply a little bigger than the hole made in to it and it's the left over material that get's destroyed with force.
Выкручивать то хоть пробовали?
No one will ever know a machinist's anguish when the tap breaks on the last hole of the last part and you have to mill it out. I nearly walked out after breaking a 1/4-20 tap on a stainless steel part. The boss ordered thread Mills the next day. Lol
Thread mills are very nice, if it breaks you just pull it out, we always use them in difficult materials
@@inconel7185 thread mills are ussually more cost effective
They are expensive but they hold 10 times longer than conventional tools
We only use them since 2016
I am inexperienced compared to my coworkers but I saw they kept breaking their taps in hard steel and recommended a thread mill
...I earned a little respect after that
@@geminisduerme5266 thread mills are overall better and more cost effective
For example we had go make 600 parts which each had 6×M5 taps
Conventional taps broke after 50-60 parts
And thread mills held for 450 parts till we completed the contract and i think it would have held even longer
The thread mill was 120 euros
And the amount of taps we broke with the Conventional ones took us around 280 euros
So idk
I would never go back from thread mills
@@LordOfChaos.x where can you get a thread mill for 120€?
I have seen this done on a job sites hardened bolt and carbide drill was broke trying to drill it out. The EDM was a different design or manufacturer but portable, the technician use a type of wide vinyl tape and plumbers putty to protect the surface. I was his assigned helper and learned a ton cool tricks. He made three over lapping holes, pulled the core out and the broken carbide drill, made three sided key shaft, and pour in liquid butane, installed the three keyed shaft and turned the shaft with two pipe wrenches.
Wow! Dude. I didn't expect to actually stop whatever else I'm doing and just watch. Oddly satisfying.
Spend 10k dollars to prevent a 5k dollar precission catastrophe. When done hit it with the grinder.
I doubt it costs 10k to spark it out. Money not the priority when you have a deadline and you want to keep the cutomer
@@DanPetrePhotos MONEY IS ALWAYS THE PRIORITY!!! LOL If you buy this type of machine, the price goes down every time you use it. Obviously, its probably not the first choice out in the field on a pipeline or aircraft engine, but its a nice tool to have in the shop. I removed thousands of broken bolts and tap s and never saw this way before, but its pretty cool.
I mjust looked online and you can buy an EDM machine for a little over $1,000.
My dude, you have the craziest machine that I didn't even know existed, yet you use a carbide burr as a punch, and your actual punch is the jankiest thing I've ever seen, how is the disparity so great? Please, get yourself a decent set of punches. Cool stuff BTW.
$5000 dollar part and you are going to tap! Crazy! Use a threadmill!!!
even then.. could be a defect in the tap structure like mine .. i broke m45 by hand ..
Pretty sure they originally did. And just for recutting the last time its perfectly fine to do that by hand.
With a mill theres no way youd get the thread started in the same position anyways.
@@D3nn1s
A threadmilled part won’t break a tap.
A chase tap is used only to de-burr the minor diameter.
@@dalesmth1 it can still happen whenthe tap is dull or there was a chip in the hole. Maybe programmingerror, maybe the tap wasnt cooled properly. There are so many things that can go wrong on a mill as well, we dont know what happened.
@@D3nn1s
A chase tap is post milling. Usually done by QA/QC (in smaller shops).
I'd have to machine that surface again if orings sit there
@Anant Bhat yes maybe
What you leave your coffee ☕ cup on machined surfaces 🤣
@@williammccafferty8558 no ocd
Either way better than buying another new one
It’s just a space shuttle part - let it slide...
A cool trick I learned is to use keyboard cleaner. You flip the can upside down & spray the tap. The chemical inside the cleaner will freeze the tap. Then I would use a chisel & break the tap out. Has been working wonders for me.
Hello , if you use square type electrode, you could get easily because you can use a square type shaft then remove them..
i tought when he was making the 2nd hole that he was making a slot to stick something in like a screwdriver. Maybe use 2 thinner electrodes and make the holes off centre so you can insert a tool to make the tap turn .. cant they make the tap so its entirely square .. not just the tip heh.
@@apsdev step the electrode up to a few thousandths smaller than the minor diameter of the threads and it would be cleaned out in one pass. It would take a little more setup time but overall would be quicker.
@@charlescoleman8139 I guess it would damage the threads that way. Note the damage on the face.
@@charlescoleman8139 Maybe set the diameter of the electrode to the web size of the tap.
Imagine the look on the guys face, when the tap broke.
Or how he/she became 1 step
Closer to being naked?
At least, until he or she went number
2.
😁
I think the whole shop heard that. If not for the tap snapping surely for the ensuing "OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE"
@@iaial0 Then the grief, knowing you can't "unsnap" it.
😮
Don’t have too
Seen it too many time to forget
Amazing! The EDM I ran back in the day was the size of a small car.
Have you ever tried clay as a way to protect around the hole and create a dam to funnel the used coolant away?
8:00 that is exactly what a carbide burr is used for
I thought I was going crazy, lol
Yeah no offense to this guy running the EDM machine, but besides running that equipment he seems really sloppy/unprepared or maybe just inexperienced. Use the right tool for the job...
That's what I thought.... That was totally overkill to remove a broken tap. (tab? Lmao) We do this a lot on aluminum racing blocks and have never seen anything like that before. That's like using a plasma cutter to cut a pilot hole in a piece of wood....
The use of a carpenter’s hammer was.a clue we’re not dealing with a master machinist. Sorry, but this looks like heck. I can only imagine the threads were equally corroded and likely molecularly compromised. Thumbs down.
@@anomicxtreme nitric acid is an elegant solution too
Ha! I knew that this kind of machine exists. Thank you.
That was so awesome!!! I've never seen or heard of that process before. Unbelievable!!!
You can avoid the damage to the top surface by protecting it with wax or sticky tape.
I have been in industrial maintenance for over 25 years and have removed a few broken taps by crushing them with a good punch and a hammer, I’ll bet I could get that one too!
why not mask off the part with some tape to the perfect hole size to avoid pitting the surface like that?
Good question. There may be a suitable tape for that purpose, just call the 3M rep and find out. But if not, you'd think that a selection of various sized hole masks would be useful.
Then again, there may be more to it than meets the eye.
@Vladimir Putin LOL. Using the right type helps...
Kapton tape. Extremely temperature resistant.
@@MatthewMelson I know the surface rust is easily removed but that's not what i was referring to. 9:20 you can clearly see it's been buffed and the surface finish is still very bad and looks like it's pitted pretty deep. Funnily enough I've actually worked on an EDM for a year at my old job so i know giving it a good sand blast will make it look nice too but that looks like severe pitting. It also seems like an issue easily mitigated by covering the surface with a varnish or tape.
My dentist could've used this when he removed my wisdom teeth xD
รถแรงวงจร
Oh
It felt like mine did
Hire an oral surgeon and they do it right!
@@t00thygr1n ...I went to a specialist- and they had my wisdom tooth out in about 5 minutes- it came out in 2 pieces- but I didn't feel a thing!!!
Great video nice equipment , but unfortunately most of us do not have access to such technology, and have to make use of what you have to hand . Thats when the creative juices get stimulated .
It's like getting a sword for Christmas and then using it to open a bag of chips
9:43 Imagine if that tap broke and it was just an endless cycle 😄
A cycle only to be broken when the EDM electrode snaps off in the hole 😂
@@EricTViking then the needle nose breaks in there trying to get the edm
Some 25 - 30 years ago I would take our discrepant parts (with broken taps) to a place in Gardena Ca called Tap EX. Jon was a master at his craft, his success rate was 100% and saved our company many times over.
Jon also offered a mobile service that benefited the local aerospace and refineries in the area. In extreme cases it was easier to bring the edm equipment to the site versus the opposite...
I thought you were welding a rod on to the broken bit to unscrew it, then you put lemon juice in and it got too complicated for me.
Same thought 😂