A few comments regarding this video: First and foremost: Codeplug Motorola. Yes, it's PL vs. CTCSS all over again. Second, P25, DMR, NXDN, and YSF all use the same (proprietary) AMBE +2 vocoder. All else being equal, the audio quality is the same on all of these modes. The reason why DMR tends to sound bad is because the $100 DMR radios are basically a $40 FM HT with a CPU running bootleg AMBE software; the analog components are the cheapest you can find. Listen on a good receiver to someone talking on a Motorola MotoTRBO radio. Beautiful audio quality; it better be, for a $700 radio. The reason P25 is so expensive is because of the license. Using the new Kenwood NXDN (aka NexEdge) expandable radios as an example, the license key for DMR is in the $25-$30 range. The P25 key is in the $160-$175 range. Word on the street by those who work with such things is that YSF is a modified version of P25, made to be incompatible with P25 so they wouldn't have to pay the license on each radio. D-STAR also uses the (proprietary) AMBE vocoder, but the older original version. This also helps explain the audio quality difference between it and the AMBE +2 modes; it was designed for the older 20 kHz wide FM slots, instead of the 12.5 kHz slots required by commercial radios today, so there's a bit less compression. As a trucker, I *love* my Icom ID-5100A while mobile. I have the repeater database cut into several overlapping zones (roughly each call district, plus considerable overlap), and can simply scan what's local while driving.Change reflectors? No problem; I can do it on the DTMF hand mic without taking my eyes off of the road. It's almost as though D*STAR was designed by hams, for hams. Oh wait... it was.
Jamie, thank you for taking the time to hammer out these great comments, they surely will be helpful to others. I have the ID-5100 in my mobile, as well as one at home. I think you'll agree, at the price point it is now (can be found new for $385), that it is a great deal for a 50 watt mobile, even if it didn't have D-Star. I too find it easy to manipulate the reflectors when traveling. Once again, thanks for the great comments.
My local hams told me they hate D-Star so i went with DMR so I could talk with them. But i quickly found out the limitations of DMR and how it made more sense for a business radio. D-Star fixes all the issues i had, mostly about sound quality, easier to just tell the repeater what zone you want, its like a digital version of “All-Star” … d-star is “best” for me. Now i have to find new friends. 😂
You'll find plenty of friends on D-Star. I used to hang out on REF024C but you'll find me on REF066D these days. One powerful feature is you can also connect directly to my local repeater/gateway at WC4PEM B. D-Star is my go to travel radio as I can't count on a DMR repeater to have a talkgroup to get back to folks in my area that lines up with any of the ones here. I know that sitting on my friends chair in Michigan that I can connect with my HT to the local W8DTW repeater and tell it to connect to my Gateway back in Florida. And in a moment, I'm chatting with my local friends. The other powerful feature I use now and then is Callsign Routing. Friends of mine, not sure where I am at, will use that and find me on the D-Star network. Yes, D-Star is old, but why can't I have all the functionality it provides in some of the other modes I use. Wires-X gives me some, but not as much as D-Star. So, when I travel, it's my D-Star HT I bring with me.
Well, I try not to have it too overbearing, and have watched videos where it was. I've done some videos without and had feedback where some light music in the background was better. Thanks for the feedback, I'll try something either very slow and light or perhaps nothing at all.
I have a FT5D and it works great with a local Fusion 70cm repeater that also has WIres and you'll never know who'll you'll run into there. The audio quality is outstanding. As a general survey of this area, there are are more Fusion/Wires setups than there are DSTAR. There are a lot of Echolink repeaters. The DSTAR repeaters are out of my current range. 73 from KE8YAI in SW MI.
Thanks for dropping by and for the comment Dirk. I've had the discussion about demographics and what nodes are available to folks in their areas. Some areas have More D-Star, some more Fusion, as well as others. Our area has just one D-Star but the growing NXDN network here has been outstanding and great audio. Things are still changing here and we just had another DMR repeater convert to NXDN. Take care.
This is exactly the kind of video we're lacking in ham radio; reasonable length, and not overly technical in the explanation. I know there's a couple channels that are good on that, but I've found myself going off to more important things at hand rather than sitting down for a 55 minute video on something I was just a little curious about. You did a good job summarizing what you think of the different digital modes without droning on and on about minute details that go over my head. I'm gonna subscribe for more content like this. Good work!
Thank you for the feedback. My goal is to put as much info in a short amount of time as we are all time constrained. For long videos online I find myself breaking them up and watching them in segments. I subscribed to your channel as well. I too enjoy video games and started with the guitar. Have the basics down, but your mentioning it has made me want to spend more time with that again. 73
@@spurious_emissions Haha thanks for letting me know there's still gaming stuff on my channel. I went through and privated a lot of those old gaming videos because of my job, but when you do batches of videos it misses a couple on each page, and I had a ton of pages. Definitely more music stuff in the future though!
D-star is one of my choices because it uses 6.25khz of bandwidth and its the only mode you can use on HF band. P25 is the Best mode i believe on VHF and Above because its using CQPSK modulation and the ability of AES256 Encryption.
Although I like NXDN, D-Star has become my favorite, especially for travel. I know if I get on a D-Star Gateway elsewhere that I can link to my local Gateway and chat with folks I know back home. My last two 1200 mile road trips it kept me company and in QSOs all the way home.
Great video! Thanks for upper level view about digital modulation. Our club needed new repeaters ASAP, so the Yaesu DR-2x has been a life saver for replacing the nearly 50 year old systems. Most folks don’t understand the different types of modes used mainly for 2m/70cm repeaters, but this makes it understandable. I particularly like when you throw in the part that most don’t understand, digital doesn’t mean internet. C4FM and Wires-X are compatible but not the same at all. Frankly DMR annoys me a bit because it makes operation more complex by far than analog and C4FM. This is the first video I’ve seen of your production, I’m now subscribed!! Thank You!
Again, thanks again for the feedback. I will though pay more attention to any underlying sounds and make sure that they aren't distracting in the future.
You have a great radio id-52 that also makes a big difference. DMR is so full of cheaply built radios which is why you need to adjust volume and sometimes can’t even understand what they are saying
Thanks for the feedback Rohn, I think you'd like NXDN. The problem is there doesn't seem to be a lot of implementation of the mode in Amateur Radio at the moment. In fact, when I search your state on Repeaterbook, I only see two repeaters. The link I had to the video on NXDN has the gentleman presenting that was instrumental in the deployment of the repeaters we have here in West Central Florida. Fusion with Wires-X is the easiest of all the modes. 73.
I live in Polk in lake wales, if there is any way we could chat I’m looking to move up from DMR and thinking of dstar or nxdn. In lake wales it’s hard to hit many of the dmr repeaters around Polk . So I would like to chat more about dstar or nxdn if we could
There are a couple of DMR repeaters you should be able to hit in Lake Wales that have great coverage. A great D-Star and NXDN in Bartow and Lakeland Highlands. Check out my Web site at delaney.rocks and I have info there. If you want more specifics, my email is good using my callsign @arrl.net. We have a really great group of folks that get together once a month at different parks in Polk County. More info on that at lwra.us/qrp
That would be my Microsoft Surface GO (the original model). I use it when I operate at parks for logging as well as all of my digital operations on HF. I also take it with me when I go out and assist someone with radio programming as all of my radio software and codeplugs is stored on it. It is also great to travel with when I go on the road as it is fully functional, yet small.
Another good video Russ. I have the same opinions about the different digital ham radio modes. You gotta go with what is best for you, what modes are in your area and where your friends are. Thanks for posting!
John, you know the repeaters and modes supported in our area. I'm curious to hear from other folks as well as to what is popular in their area and what mode ended up being their "best" mode that they like to use.
Fantastic overview video for digital modes. I as well love NXDN and DStar sound quality. I prefer Fusion VW over DN as well. Keep these digital mode videos coming.
I think we need more videos on this subject but I really couldn't hear much of this one. Music mix is the same level or louder than voice. Don't need the music at all. MUCH better without so we can hear you. Thanks
This review didn't start well for me. He says P25 audio quality is good. Every recording of every digital mode sounds like crap. So, I already can't take this review seriously. Then there's the too loud, repetitive background music. Finally, closed down digital modes, I'm looking at you icom. I like how my phone called it Icon. Anyway, as much as digital has helped in many areas, for comms I see it as a radio sales gemic and not as a value add. Maybe one day when audio quality is more important than sales. Yeah, that will be the day.
@@spurious_emissions Those who like additional music can play music while watching the video. Those who don't like it, have no chance to get rid of it, except discarding the whole video. There are also many people with hearing impairments and for them, that intentional QRM makes it unbearable.
By the way, I know people who really like the synthetic sound of the vocoders used in digital modes. They reduce the bandwidth by analyzing the human voice and replicating it on the receiver, this strips out almost everything that doesn't match a human voice. Yes, it sounds synthetic, in extreme cases like a robot, but there is no noise. I also know even more people who hate that synthetic voice from these codecs. So some audio examples of the digital modes (new and old AMBE codec and Codec2) in comparison to the noise of a noisy FM or SSB channel would have been nice.
Great video Russ! Maybe we can collaborate on a D-STAR presentation for LARC as that is my preferred digital voice mode. Too few people understand the power and simplicity of D-STAR around here. Thanks for sharing!
That would be great Michael. I already have a D-Star presentation I made at the Lake Wales Radio Amateurs Club earlier this year. With the Bartow machine now a Gateway since May 6th (which I know you helped on), I decided to put together a presentation. I have a shorter version and a more detailed version. I'd be happy to work with you on that.
Nice job. You talked entirely about voice on digital, which is fine. However, a couple modes have a serial data capability. Fusion has this, but for some unknown reason Yaesu limited what you can do with it. DStar has it and we use it in emcomm all the time. Concurrent voice and "slow speed" digital data. The data part of it is a niche within the digital voice niche, but if that's important, DStar is the mode. All DStar radios have this...the newer ones can use bluetooth to connect to a phone or a computer to use it. All that being said, I''m sure you are aware there are now "cross-mode" repeaters. We have one here. You can get into the reflector, which has multiple AMBE chips and a computer and you come out on another connected repeater in a different mode. Here DMR and DStar talk all the time together. Fusion, P25, NXDN and M17 area all supported. Voice only, occasional glitch but it works. Buy a DMR radio and hotspot, come out in Allentown PA on DStar. Or Fusion. I think that's the future. Buy any radio, talk to any radio.
Thanks Mike, coincidentally, I just had a discussion on this topic this morning on an NXDN repeater. In that discussion I thought of some short videos on each mode's data capabilities. I have used them on D-Star and System Fusion. Perhaps not a lot of folks are aware of them, and maybe some short videos on each will get folks experimenting with them. I actually like how I can use data capabilities on D-Star using the callsign routing function, that worked very well. I wanted to add that into this video, but didn't want it to be too long. With regards to cross-mode systems, I use one to chat with friends in Michigan, that one being the Eastern-MI-Link system. Info on it can be found at xlx106.dudetronics.com/index.php?show=info Most of the folks I chat with when I connect to Reflector 106A on D-Star on on the Fusion repeater linked system in Michigan. It even supports M17. There is so much to cover about digital and my goal is to keep the videos as short as possible so folks can zoom in on the aspects they are looking for, so maybe a data demo is the next set for each of the modes. Thanks again Mike for taking the time to comment, I appreciate it.
A few comments regarding this video:
First and foremost: Codeplug Motorola. Yes, it's PL vs. CTCSS all over again.
Second, P25, DMR, NXDN, and YSF all use the same (proprietary) AMBE +2 vocoder. All else being equal, the audio quality is the same on all of these modes. The reason why DMR tends to sound bad is because the $100 DMR radios are basically a $40 FM HT with a CPU running bootleg AMBE software; the analog components are the cheapest you can find. Listen on a good receiver to someone talking on a Motorola MotoTRBO radio. Beautiful audio quality; it better be, for a $700 radio.
The reason P25 is so expensive is because of the license. Using the new Kenwood NXDN (aka NexEdge) expandable radios as an example, the license key for DMR is in the $25-$30 range. The P25 key is in the $160-$175 range.
Word on the street by those who work with such things is that YSF is a modified version of P25, made to be incompatible with P25 so they wouldn't have to pay the license on each radio.
D-STAR also uses the (proprietary) AMBE vocoder, but the older original version. This also helps explain the audio quality difference between it and the AMBE +2 modes; it was designed for the older 20 kHz wide FM slots, instead of the 12.5 kHz slots required by commercial radios today, so there's a bit less compression. As a trucker, I *love* my Icom ID-5100A while mobile. I have the repeater database cut into several overlapping zones (roughly each call district, plus considerable overlap), and can simply scan what's local while driving.Change reflectors? No problem; I can do it on the DTMF hand mic without taking my eyes off of the road. It's almost as though D*STAR was designed by hams, for hams. Oh wait... it was.
Jamie, thank you for taking the time to hammer out these great comments, they surely will be helpful to others. I have the ID-5100 in my mobile, as well as one at home. I think you'll agree, at the price point it is now (can be found new for $385), that it is a great deal for a 50 watt mobile, even if it didn't have D-Star. I too find it easy to manipulate the reflectors when traveling. Once again, thanks for the great comments.
I've used some Motorola DMR radios at places I used to work at. The audio was often bad. I've had better audio with Retevis radios.
My local hams told me they hate D-Star so i went with DMR so I could talk with them. But i quickly found out the limitations of DMR and how it made more sense for a business radio. D-Star fixes all the issues i had, mostly about sound quality, easier to just tell the repeater what zone you want, its like a digital version of “All-Star” … d-star is “best” for me. Now i have to find new friends. 😂
You'll find plenty of friends on D-Star. I used to hang out on REF024C but you'll find me on REF066D these days. One powerful feature is you can also connect directly to my local repeater/gateway at WC4PEM B. D-Star is my go to travel radio as I can't count on a DMR repeater to have a talkgroup to get back to folks in my area that lines up with any of the ones here. I know that sitting on my friends chair in Michigan that I can connect with my HT to the local W8DTW repeater and tell it to connect to my Gateway back in Florida. And in a moment, I'm chatting with my local friends. The other powerful feature I use now and then is Callsign Routing. Friends of mine, not sure where I am at, will use that and find me on the D-Star network. Yes, D-Star is old, but why can't I have all the functionality it provides in some of the other modes I use. Wires-X gives me some, but not as much as D-Star. So, when I travel, it's my D-Star HT I bring with me.
Why do so many TH-camrs think music is more important than information?
Well, I try not to have it too overbearing, and have watched videos where it was. I've done some videos without and had feedback where some light music in the background was better. Thanks for the feedback, I'll try something either very slow and light or perhaps nothing at all.
I have a FT5D and it works great with a local Fusion 70cm repeater that also has WIres and you'll never know who'll you'll run into there. The audio quality is outstanding. As a general survey of this area, there are are more Fusion/Wires setups than there are DSTAR. There are a lot of Echolink repeaters. The DSTAR repeaters are out of my current range. 73 from KE8YAI in SW MI.
Thanks for dropping by and for the comment Dirk. I've had the discussion about demographics and what nodes are available to folks in their areas. Some areas have More D-Star, some more Fusion, as well as others. Our area has just one D-Star but the growing NXDN network here has been outstanding and great audio. Things are still changing here and we just had another DMR repeater convert to NXDN. Take care.
just found you and subscribed. Also watched the DAPNET video. Very cool was not familiar with that. Thanks for sharing these. Very informative.
Thanks Mike for watching. It seems every day there is always something new to learn in this hobby/service. That's what I love about it.
This is exactly the kind of video we're lacking in ham radio; reasonable length, and not overly technical in the explanation. I know there's a couple channels that are good on that, but I've found myself going off to more important things at hand rather than sitting down for a 55 minute video on something I was just a little curious about. You did a good job summarizing what you think of the different digital modes without droning on and on about minute details that go over my head. I'm gonna subscribe for more content like this. Good work!
Thank you for the feedback. My goal is to put as much info in a short amount of time as we are all time constrained. For long videos online I find myself breaking them up and watching them in segments.
I subscribed to your channel as well. I too enjoy video games and started with the guitar. Have the basics down, but your mentioning it has made me want to spend more time with that again. 73
@@spurious_emissions Haha thanks for letting me know there's still gaming stuff on my channel. I went through and privated a lot of those old gaming videos because of my job, but when you do batches of videos it misses a couple on each page, and I had a ton of pages. Definitely more music stuff in the future though!
D-star is one of my choices because it uses 6.25khz of bandwidth and its the only mode you can use on HF band. P25 is the Best mode i believe on VHF and Above because its using CQPSK modulation and the ability of AES256 Encryption.
Although I like NXDN, D-Star has become my favorite, especially for travel. I know if I get on a D-Star Gateway elsewhere that I can link to my local Gateway and chat with folks I know back home. My last two 1200 mile road trips it kept me company and in QSOs all the way home.
Great video! Thanks for upper level view about digital modulation. Our club needed new repeaters ASAP, so the Yaesu DR-2x has been a life saver for replacing the nearly 50 year old systems. Most folks don’t understand the different types of modes used mainly for 2m/70cm repeaters, but this makes it understandable. I particularly like when you throw in the part that most don’t understand, digital doesn’t mean internet. C4FM and Wires-X are compatible but not the same at all. Frankly DMR annoys me a bit because it makes operation more complex by far than analog and C4FM. This is the first video I’ve seen of your production, I’m now subscribed!! Thank You!
James, thank you for taking the time to comment and to subscribe.
@@spurious_emissions I don’t mind the music…🤓
Again, thanks again for the feedback. I will though pay more attention to any underlying sounds and make sure that they aren't distracting in the future.
Good information, Russ
Great video Russ
You have a great radio id-52 that also makes a big difference. DMR is so full of cheaply built radios which is why you need to adjust volume and sometimes can’t even understand what they are saying
Great point regarding cheaply built DMR radios
I use P25 here but, cost is a problem. Not a DMR fan. I really like D-Star. Don’t fully understand C4FM/ Wires. Love to try NXDN.
Thanks for the feedback Rohn, I think you'd like NXDN. The problem is there doesn't seem to be a lot of implementation of the mode in Amateur Radio at the moment. In fact, when I search your state on Repeaterbook, I only see two repeaters. The link I had to the video on NXDN has the gentleman presenting that was instrumental in the deployment of the repeaters we have here in West Central Florida.
Fusion with Wires-X is the easiest of all the modes. 73.
I live in Polk in lake wales, if there is any way we could chat I’m looking to move up from DMR and thinking of dstar or nxdn. In lake wales it’s hard to hit many of the dmr repeaters around Polk . So I would like to chat more about dstar or nxdn if we could
There are a couple of DMR repeaters you should be able to hit in Lake Wales that have great coverage. A great D-Star and NXDN in Bartow and Lakeland Highlands. Check out my Web site at delaney.rocks and I have info there. If you want more specifics, my email is good using my callsign @arrl.net. We have a really great group of folks that get together once a month at different parks in Polk County. More info on that at lwra.us/qrp
of topic question: What is model and brand of this small laptop almost in the center of the desk ?
That would be my Microsoft Surface GO (the original model). I use it when I operate at parks for logging as well as all of my digital operations on HF. I also take it with me when I go out and assist someone with radio programming as all of my radio software and codeplugs is stored on it. It is also great to travel with when I go on the road as it is fully functional, yet small.
Another good video Russ. I have the same opinions about the different digital ham radio modes. You gotta go with what is best for you, what modes are in your area and where your friends are. Thanks for posting!
Thanks John!
John, you know the repeaters and modes supported in our area. I'm curious to hear from other folks as well as to what is popular in their area and what mode ended up being their "best" mode that they like to use.
You're starting to get some views on your videos!
Thanks Corey!
Fantastic overview video for digital modes. I as well love NXDN and DStar sound quality. I prefer Fusion VW over DN as well. Keep these digital mode videos coming.
Thanks for watching Brook!
I think we need more videos on this subject but I really couldn't hear much of this one. Music mix is the same level or louder than voice. Don't need the music at all. MUCH better without so we can hear you. Thanks
Thanks for the feedback.
DMR has the same background music.
This review didn't start well for me. He says P25 audio quality is good. Every recording of every digital mode sounds like crap. So, I already can't take this review seriously. Then there's the too loud, repetitive background music. Finally, closed down digital modes, I'm looking at you icom. I like how my phone called it Icon. Anyway, as much as digital has helped in many areas, for comms I see it as a radio sales gemic and not as a value add. Maybe one day when audio quality is more important than sales. Yeah, that will be the day.
No music pls!
SoCal DMR!
I'll use the Papa System from time to time. It appears there is some great DMR out in California. Some good nets and QSOs. 73
Good informative video but the music was a little distracting and unnecessary.
Get rid of the background music.
Thanks Charles. I've had some who like it and some who don't. I appreciate your feedback.
@@spurious_emissions Those who like additional music can play music while watching the video. Those who don't like it, have no chance to get rid of it, except discarding the whole video. There are also many people with hearing impairments and for them, that intentional QRM makes it unbearable.
By the way, I know people who really like the synthetic sound of the vocoders used in digital modes. They reduce the bandwidth by analyzing the human voice and replicating it on the receiver, this strips out almost everything that doesn't match a human voice. Yes, it sounds synthetic, in extreme cases like a robot, but there is no noise. I also know even more people who hate that synthetic voice from these codecs. So some audio examples of the digital modes (new and old AMBE codec and Codec2) in comparison to the noise of a noisy FM or SSB channel would have been nice.
73s
73
Great video Russ! Maybe we can collaborate on a D-STAR presentation for LARC as that is my preferred digital voice mode. Too few people understand the power and simplicity of D-STAR around here. Thanks for sharing!
That would be great Michael. I already have a D-Star presentation I made at the Lake Wales Radio Amateurs Club earlier this year. With the Bartow machine now a Gateway since May 6th (which I know you helped on), I decided to put together a presentation. I have a shorter version and a more detailed version. I'd be happy to work with you on that.
Nice job. You talked entirely about voice on digital, which is fine. However, a couple modes have a serial data capability. Fusion has this, but for some unknown reason Yaesu limited what you can do with it. DStar has it and we use it in emcomm all the time. Concurrent voice and "slow speed" digital data. The data part of it is a niche within the digital voice niche, but if that's important, DStar is the mode. All DStar radios have this...the newer ones can use bluetooth to connect to a phone or a computer to use it.
All that being said, I''m sure you are aware there are now "cross-mode" repeaters. We have one here. You can get into the reflector, which has multiple AMBE chips and a computer and you come out on another connected repeater in a different mode. Here DMR and DStar talk all the time together. Fusion, P25, NXDN and M17 area all supported. Voice only, occasional glitch but it works. Buy a DMR radio and hotspot, come out in Allentown PA on DStar. Or Fusion. I think that's the future. Buy any radio, talk to any radio.
Thanks Mike, coincidentally, I just had a discussion on this topic this morning on an NXDN repeater. In that discussion I thought of some short videos on each mode's data capabilities. I have used them on D-Star and System Fusion. Perhaps not a lot of folks are aware of them, and maybe some short videos on each will get folks experimenting with them. I actually like how I can use data capabilities on D-Star using the callsign routing function, that worked very well. I wanted to add that into this video, but didn't want it to be too long. With regards to cross-mode systems, I use one to chat with friends in Michigan, that one being the Eastern-MI-Link system. Info on it can be found at xlx106.dudetronics.com/index.php?show=info Most of the folks I chat with when I connect to Reflector 106A on D-Star on on the Fusion repeater linked system in Michigan. It even supports M17. There is so much to cover about digital and my goal is to keep the videos as short as possible so folks can zoom in on the aspects they are looking for, so maybe a data demo is the next set for each of the modes. Thanks again Mike for taking the time to comment, I appreciate it.
@@spurious_emissions Our local one also supports M17. It's free but extremely rare at the moment.
Mindless, highly irritating background music drove me away. Too bad. The information was useful.
Thank you for the constructive feedback. I will take that into consideration in the future and sorry about the background music.
Rid the music.
Any mode is nice without KC6UBP
Distracting background music that made it hard to hear and understand you.