(209) Gerda Titan Lock (NEED HELP) - (Thanks MantukaSNK!)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- I need help with this Gerda Titan Lock that MantukaSNK sent to me. I've tried everything under the sun with no luck at all. Any ideas?
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gerda is a legend in poland some ppl rather break trough wall than play with this lock
Never heard of anybody picking a Gerda. This thing is legendary in Poland and still very popular till this day. Funny thing is that if you turn it twice with a key you can't open it from the inside. My family accidentally locked me inside a few times. Being on the inside, you could take the lock of the door, but I don't have tools in my house.
+darek4488 Are you still locked up? :P
CapnTates I was once, but I unscrewed the look of the door.
simple trick: if you cant get in (1.5turn from the inside ), you lock it all the way, and then unlock it.
I have this lock for something like 10 years and didn't knew about it... As far as I tested it though you can't turn it from inside if you turn it 2 times from outside.
darek4488 nh
This type Gerda locks with this kind of key are very popular in Poland. Actually this lock saved my house from robbery in the past :)
I have the same one in my flat in Warsaw. Seams bosnianbill has a fan club in Poland :)
I've got this lock in my doors from over 20 years now. The disadvantage of it is that sometimes ( not very often. I did it maybe 3 times only) you have to clear the key from the dirt accumulated inside its core. Otherwise you will not be able to insert a key to the correct position.
This Gerda lock has one more feature. At the back of the lock is a knob to open the lock from inside a house. When the lock is locked using the key (3 times turn), then it is impossible to open the lock from inside using the knob. This is in case when a robber will force the way "inside" through a window, and will try to escape through the door.
Oh my god, I haven't seen one of these for a looong time. They seem to have been installed in pretty much every single pre-2000 flat here in Poland.
FokkerBoombass
Why not anymore?
DaveMcIroy Dunno. Gerda is still alive and well, but for some reason these kinds of locks aren't that popular anymore.
DaveMcIroy They aren't as popular since, they are very expensive and as far as I remember to get a copy of the key you have to ask the manufacturer as little shops can't even get blanks for these let alone the equipment to cut one and again it's not cheap. Back in Poland these are legendary for their security and nowadays are usually sold as an integral part of the door I believe, my sisters old flat had one of them. Looked like the door had solid steel inside and the locking bolts were nearly an inch thick with three rows on either side of the door (top and bottom).
I Love this setup u described. That keeps out the crooks / cops and any other prick ::))
i rather blame not enough of lockpicked locks
Get LPL to try this lock! Say that you'll shoot him in the leg if he doesn't try 😂
Easier to demonstrate in diagrammatic form but essentially you need fabricate a stack of brass rings with eccentric orbits to the key post, so that each layer of the keys body has rotatable discs containing the dimple holes of varying heights. You can then try bumping it again only with the addition of the free rotating (but lockable) eccentric discs that offer adjustable pin plunge variations. You can lock the stack before each 'bump session' with a threaded ring at the rear of the stack. Hope this helps Bill.
As far as I know, Tytan in particular wasn't picked yet. The only way is a hydraulic door ram :) and a wee hand pump.
What I've done few years back to my workshop, was that I used two of these connected together with a bike chain... this way U'd need at least four hands to pick it, only IF it w'd be possible :) and the door design was "anti-ram" in case if one w'd have a hydraulic ram in hand.
So far the best lock ever, and we're talking under $90 for the top model of the Tytan family.
I never heard of anyone who managed to pick Gerda lock
Phen0mable lol I never heard of a bank that uses Gerda locks. there are plenty of better locks out there, Gerda is time consuming but pickable
Why bank would use Gerda ?? They have everything insured and you rob a bank they are actually happy with it
Phen0mable so in your little world they should just leave the doors open? Just to get the insurance you need a certain level of security.
timo stockhorst open door insurance doesn't cover
Phen0mable you obviously didn't get what I said, try again.
There is no better commercial fro a lock than this video. This is the best lock in the world !!! I have just bought the 2 Gerda TYTAN locks on my white PVC doors. These are without the alarm but still white with long key fit well to standard PVC doors.
And the price for 2 locks is only 150 GBP less then one ass-abloy euro cylinder.
Happy retirement! You are a legend! Thanks for all the years of entertainment!
take a key from it and grind the deepest cuts into it, then cut the handle off and grind the tension nib off and chuck it in a drill. apply tension with you homebrew tesnion wrench and bingo..like bumping it but, in stead of in and out, it would be spinning.
if my brain works this early it should yeild.
bosnianbill ahh well it was worth a shot
bosnianbill did you ever pick this?
@@ameliarowe2788 he commented 8 months ago he didnt
Hey.
I would really like to see this lock unopened.
It's one of not many affordable and secure locks.
High five for GERDA.
The only thing that comes to mind is foil impressioning...That would require over-drilling every dimple position and wrapping the key in sticky air-conditioning duct tape (heavy duty foil) and just working it back & forth until the pins eventually pressed into the foil to the correct depth at each dimple. (I explained for people reading these comments, not you Bill lol) The only thing is, it would destroy the original key if you only had one. I'm sure a replica of the key could be fabricated using some kind of steel tube and adding the flag at the end somehow plus a t-handle for the heavy tension you'll need for the impressions.
From the way that the key is "tough to get in to the slot" im guessing that at the back of that lock there is a tumbler lock of some kind that is released when the key locks itself in position for turning making it immune to bumping.
There's nothing like that on the titan I dismantled just the standard pins no other "tricks"
I'm also from Poland but I look at english vids a lot cause I lived in UK for almost 7 years
Now I know what's worth buying.
Locks like this start from about 40 euros
Did you get it open. I think to turn 3 times you have to pick it 12 times, because i think when you turn it a quarter the pins wil fal in the holes again.
Considering these being staple lock in Poland, add to it soviet era block of flats, tough like hell concrete, only viable burglary option is balcony
How about foil impressioning ? With your bump key you made get the strong insulation foil and stick it around your bump key. I know it's tricky not to damage the foil with the pins in the way. So use a made up tool to push all the pins to its max out of the way with your tension tool applied then foil away.
Any updates on this lock? I'm running out of pop corn. ;)
No, it is STILL living in my naughty bucket. No headway at all. This may be an all-time record for naughty bucket occupation and there's no end in sight...
Any chance you will gut this lock and share it with us? I would love to see it gutted with your commentary.
Still nothing?
@@namiribuazid4974 you can decode it with a tool worth some 100s of $$, but it takes time, like 30 min
@@bosnianbill I know this is an old comment and video, but I've picked it on my channel here: th-cam.com/video/TQ_JuQP45Xs/w-d-xo.html
Instead of a bump key, how about a spin key. Chuck it up in a drill.
When the police are taught about using the big red skeleton key. They get taught about different locks.
Police are taught if you see one of these, just go through the windows
You will not break the lock. At all.
There is a decoder set for the Gerda, watched the demo video and the lock has 4 rows, 4 levels setup ie 16 possible pins. They seem to tension the lock then decode each level one at a time by inserting the decoder 4 times for that level. Then they swap to another tool that goes through the same process again but testing each of the 4 rows but this time at the second level. You go though the same process for each level then assemble a key based on the 4x4 pin table you have created. To pick this without a decoder you need a tool than has 4 tumblers that can have 4 pins activated. You need to be able to lock each tumbler one at a time, spin it to confirm the pinning then at the end lock all the tumblers once the pins have been set to unlock.
Thank you BosnianBill! Happy retirement!
What if you make a spiral cutout on your "bump key" instead of straight rings? This way spinning it with a drill will probably be effective. Alternatively, just try to shove a corkscrew in there.
Dynamite? Dynamite unlocks everything.
That machined rod is a good idea, but i would make it so, that in one cycle it "touches" the pins at different depts... So any circle that can contact the pins are concentric, then give tension to the lock and with a fast rotation you can tickle every pin very fast... Use a battery driven tool to rotate the rod... :)
most of my friends have gerda locks in their doors. The best thing about this lock is you have to rotate the key couple of times to get it open ....so it seems like we are kinda safe :) I hope this guy will send you the newest gerda lock.
I've simular but slightly different cause we have in Poland many kinds of those locks.Never has been open by thieves for years with few attempts.If that lock is properly fit to the doors you and your house are safe.This is one of few versions of Gerda lock,that one:if you lock it from the outside twice,then you can not open it from the inside.This function is theft prevension,cause they can go inside your house,brake the windows,but they can not go outsde with the stolen goods use the doors.This is the idea of this.
Wow! I haven't done any lock picking but I've watched a lot of your vids and Ive got to say that I'm very impressed by this lock! I don't know if you've put up a vid if you finally picking it, if not I can't wait! Thanks for all your vids. They've really inspired me to pick up thus hobby! I'm a Government certified welder and love messing with mechanical parts.
As an idea: the cuts on bump-key should not be round, but oval and rotate it with drill.
There is russian copy of gerda and you can't applay tension in it, if you intrested melangesrv.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/p-004.jpg
Why not try making a spinning bump key with a bunch of different height pits on it. Hand drill powered.
W Polsce było wielu ekspertów od włamań. Myślę że firma zatrudniła kilku do opracowania tych zamków. Po jakimś czasie klucze zapychają i trzeba je czyscic w środku
Ta wkładkę opracował założyciel gerdy
thanks to your videos I got my flame lit up for lock picking. just got my firs pick set :) thanks
I guess that there are hidden pins somewhere, maybe that ball bearing, or the bottom of the keyway
I can send you pictures of the internals/pins if that might help. I dealt a fair bit with these locks several years ago, there is a serious weakness with the master keying system, you only need access to a few non-master keys to figure out how to make a master key and the keys are easy to make with only basic tools.
try deepening the grooves on yout bump key, thinning the bump key down a litle and try a foil attack.
Bump / twist bump might be difficult as pins are strongly tensioned. Copied keys (by authorized locksmith) often work stiff and you have to jiggle it around to cooperate. Pins are probably large and precisely cut to hair-width thin shear line. We use those locks to protect documents, expensive equipment etc. I'd buy it if I haven't have Keso 4000s ;)
Im so happy i got Gerda lock on my door! In fact, i have Gerda Steel door with that lock :) Love the videos!
Did you ever get this open Bill?
He commented 8 months ago that he still hasnt
I would not be surprised if there was something to that ball bearing then drill protection. perhaps something in the key presses it and releases a lock?
The ball is just drill protection I have one of these locks in pieces and some working ones.
Martin King There's an easy way around that .. simply by using a centre-less drill bit .. as it then utilizes the central shaft to locate & hold the drill-bit as it's removing all of the tumblers and other "outer" material of the cylinder shaft itself. when the drill-bit bottoms out there'll be no tumblers of pins left in the cylinder and very little of the cylinder itself will be left -- thus the "lock" will fall apart from the inside.
Hi Bill, if you're still fighting this lock, I came across a german lockpicking supplier who offers a dedicated Gerda Pick/Decoder:
shop.multipick.com/de/picksets/andere-picks/gerda-titan-zx-pick-decoder-tool
They also offer a dedicated Gerda bumpkey:
shop.multipick.com/de/schlagschluessel/einfache-schluessel/schluesseln/schlagschluessel-gerda
The bumpkey is also advertised as an SPK bumpkey.
The price for the pick/decoder is heavy, but details of the design (and hence, the method of attack) might be discernible in the photographs. The bumpkey on the other side seems moderately priced at some 17€.
Hope that helps. Stay safe, stay legal and have a nice day!
+Toma Tomov Thanks. That link is very helpful.
haha. 2142€ . ... could be helpful to somebody..?
Toma Tomov h
He might not notice it here... maybe shoot him a PM/email or post on his page discussion?
f1 crashes
Make a "bump key" but make it so that you have different degrees of cut out on each depth into the keyway, and try turning the bump key while tensioning the lock.
I think that the numbers of turn here lock it in a different modes. As far as I remember 3 turns disable the option to unlock it from the inside.
Can't you undersize the bump key and foil it?
These gerda locka are good indeed.
However i have a simple problem with it.
Some time ago when there was 2 keys put into it at same time and both were moving the lock somehow got "broken" and set up on a position in the middle of the turn, so it's not anymore on position 0 but on 0,5 at default when locking/uncloking the door (you can't take it out when it's on a full rotation like poistion 0, 1 or 2, only 0,5 and 1,5). It works normal but i can't fix it to be set on default 0 position instead of one full swing (180degrees). Any idea what might be wrong with it and how to fix it ?
Thanks
maybe a rubber cylindrical sleeve, that you can inflate/deflate with water/air quickly for a bump?
I think you can get a impressioning kit for it.
hello, easy to emergancy opening.
U need 2x hole drill 46 fi.
you need cut the top on one and the bottom on the other and have to weld together. Then you drill the core from the body. 5 minutes of work (if you have the tool ready)
How about a instead of the bumps have ramps and then spin the key under tension?
complete instructions on how to pick th-cam.com/video/LGy_pMocYWs/w-d-xo.html
I'd love to see if I could crack one of these. Maybe someday I'll visit Poland..
not heard of anyone picking these by hand,think theres a set of very expensive master keys that a couple of lockies use,good luck though n great vids.
2 ideas:
1st: machine a second bump key with a more traditional "V" shaped notch to make for a quicker impact, with little or no flat area on the key.
2nd: Bend a flat piece of metal to approximately the shape of a Bogota rake and work it with that. Cheers Bill!
Bill I have a random and probably impossible solutions. What if tolerances/design would be generous enough to allow you could create a comb like device. Push all the lower, upper and springs out of the way. Second solution operating under the comb idea, what if pushed each pin was pushed up past the shear line(with a pick) put a brittle glue(superglue) and bypass the pins. Shove everything into the lock body. Should the glue get in the way of it turning, some force will overcome that.
Third idea which was already suggested would be a bump key attached to a drill(left right) or saw(up down) action. Get some motion and wish for the best 3 times.
(These suggestions will probably never work, so please don't troll me instead politely tell me I am an idiot)
The brass thing that you made - put foil on top of it and try to impress the pins, my guess would be that you will need another one that is not cut round all the way but have 'stops' like the key does. At least it's worth trying, i've heard that method works for some pretty nasty locks if you get the hang of it .
Haha yee.. From Poland.. Old good Gerda ;)
if the pins are in line with each other wouldn't you have to pick it every quarter turn?
hmm what is the depth of the center hole in the key and what is the dept of the center pin? it locks like the center pin is the tension thing if it is pushed in with the key.
I already sent it to you... Good luck. Mantas will be calling you for daily updates on your progress. ;)
is it possible the wrong key depth or length on the center pin with the ball bearing (too shallow or deep) activates a blocking mechanism behind the pin sets or the pins must move in proper sequence from front to back
Sorry if this was answered, but does the ball bearing in the center shaft move at all? Could it be a detent which the key presses on to allow the core to turn?
Why aren't all lock manufactures switching to this kind of lock? They just keep making these locks that can be picked and bumped. I guess it makes for good puzzles for lock pickers. Guess it goes in to Bill's naughty bucket along with that old Yale railroad lock. That lock is so nice.
No way! It will, I'll have to remember that.
well, poland stronk! :)
if you were not trying to keep it in one piece then how about taking a hand held pipe cutter with the carbide disc and use it to cut as far back as possible then revealing the inside
I think the position of the last notch the hangs down where your putting tension maybe a notch for a security bar .. like the disc or wafer locks you always show
A flag pick cut out from a tube with a disk retainer torque (a tube profile torque lever)? Or using a BIC pen with pin positions drilled out, covered with foil, while applying tension with the same disk retainer (tube profile) torque lever?
Sometimes you meet your match buddy it is crap when you do but it does happen
I'm not sure if it helps but i once dropped key to to that lock from first floor on concrete and tip got little scratched and it didn't work anymore i had to polish it make it work again. I think there is something on the bottom of the well or tolerances are so small that 2/10th of mm in insertion depth makes a difference
ehm, once I had a copy of the original key made (a copy NOT made by the manufacturer), and it barely worked, you had to wiggle it quite a bit to have it turn... so without the key it might be tricky
0:32 The technique & theory of a bump key is exactly the same as that of the "hanging balls" pendulum set (such that ONLY the last movable tumbler piece will MOVE when bumped correctly) which is why those main master bump keys you normally use, ground down to the max depth (with just a tiny bump tip left on the key, between the tumbler settings) which when "bumped correctly" will still SET even the max height tumblers at the upper top edge of a key's cut - even though they won't ever do this if slowly inserted & withdrawn slowly (it's purely the "bump" of the bump-key that activates the pendulum set of "hanging balls method" to whack the tumbler's upper piece to a height above it's "set" line, thus unlocking the lock without actually setting each tumbler mechanically), so do NOT have a bump key which WILL "slowly" reset all tumblers PAST their maximum lift height, as you withdraw it. ie: a spinning bump pipe can have all but one slot drilled totally out (slotted out), such that only ONE tumbler line is "bumped" at any given time, but on fast rotation "all" will bump close enough to hold their uppers aloft long enough to unlock the lock, and once ALL are set - the spinner can be left between the slots - so all tumblers appear to have NO lift whatsoever.
What keeps the driver pins from being pushed out when the lock rotates? and is it possible to do an impression attack? I am a noob so sorry if the answers are obvious.
OK, I'm a completely new to all this sport picking. I watched your videos in the past but just recently got into the hobby. You could say I'm a n00b... but hear me out :D
This idea came to my head when i saw your bump key:
Make a tube that fits nicely on the shaft in the middle but only has ONE dimple on it. Add large knob on the outside end and use this contraption as a rotary pick. You can add a ring with the tension nib on top of it to help you tension the lock.
Let me know if this makes any sense to you. If not, i can try to sketch it.
PS: if you picked it already, ignore my rambling :P
Worked it out, C4. Simple. Call if you need any other advice.
He said non-destructive...C4 gets past any lock though.
+Shining Darkness you're aware I was being ironic, right?
Thor You are aware that I don't really care, right?
Thor I sopped caring about whether text comments are serious or not a long time ago, so I just flip a coin to determine how I respond: heads means I take it as serious, tails as shenanigans.
+Shining Darkness must remember that. 😂😂😂
I have an impressioning kit for this lock that I got from a state auction. Pity the channel has retired.. it took me a long time to id the lock that went with the tools. It was deviant ollem who solved it for me..
Bill, are you sure you don't have to press in the ball bearing on that rod? look inside the key to see if there's a post in it?
Bosnianbill >>> I´ve found a video here on TH-cam with the name "Prodecoderkit for the impossible Gerda" which I think you´ll find worth watching. It´s a little alien like picking technology, but amazing. Happy watching.
hmm.. might have an idea.. but the machining work woud be insane just for one lock. and even then who knows
Love your videos Mr Bill
I have the same in my front door :D
You can foil your bumping tool if you make it smaller
Did you ever solve it? Or is it still in your bucket?
To my knowledge you can't properly pick this lock, the only practical way of opening it without a key is with a specialized decoder
th-cam.com/video/2IVeFrlQWHw/w-d-xo.html
Or you could cut a key based on a read of it but that's far less practical.
EDIT: here's a tutorial for the decoder if that'll help you in your quest th-cam.com/video/Kk_uKKDXpf0/w-d-xo.html
Picked it recently th-cam.com/video/TQ_JuQP45Xs/w-d-xo.html
Guys, I have a problem with a lock from this family. I think mine is Gerda G1000 or ZX1000, both look the same to me. All my keys turn nicely in the lock, but only to a point until it is about to move the deadbolts. Then it stops completely. I think both deadbolts are rusted solid with the lock frame or with the door frame or both. I tried turning it with as much force as I believe the plastic part of the key can handle. I tried kicking the door to vibrate the lock. Is it even possible to drill this lock out? The key hole in the door is small, about double, triple the key thickness. I can't do anything with the door, they are solid steel and the window is protected with heavy duty steel bars that are integrated into the brick wall. I also thought about making a fully metal key duplicate like it was in the older version of this lock, as it could take more force and I could also whack with a hammer it to shock the lock directly and break the rust away. Any ideas?
Way cool lock Bill. Had to go back in time and watch an older video, you haven't posted anything in quite a while starting to have withdrawls ha.
can't wait to get my Bill video fix be safe and please keep it legal.
i just checked the guy's channel and he is definitely not Polish. He might live in Poland but he is actually Russian. The lock is Polish tho ;)
Hey Bill, I don't know if anyone has said this yet but do you think it may be possible to take your bump key or a key with all lowest cuts and wrap it once in tinfoil? if the key had that tension notch on it maybe you can foil impression it?
you have a peace of pipe that is smart for making the bum key but what I would do it make the same thing but use a thin peace of pipe that if you cut groves in for spots between the pins you could use it as a rake. also just keep looking around for a pick for it you never no. the other thing I would try is to take 4 bump key rakes tape the in a square with a bit of pipe inbetween to hold them apart in a square or so and rake it. I no this video is old so if you read thi let me no if you ever got it picked.
For many years this lock is impossible to pick. There is no one who picked it.There is a rumor that someone turned it in quarter, but then the lock was stuck.
What if you could make key that instead of bumping in and out but would bump right to left? attach it to a drill and spin it up?
+Steven Goodwin В продаже качественный профессиональный инструмент для аварийного открывания квартирных , сейфовых , автомобильных замков , разных видов и разных типов phreaker.us/forum/showthread.php?t=21327
tools for emergency opening of locks , Lock & Door opening Tools, lock picking tools
contact neo@phreaker.us
+bosnianbill Bill - if you read Steven's comment again I think you will see that he is suggesting a new and rather novel idea. I think there is at least some chance that it could work! A drill may be a bit too fast - but maybe a drill at relatively low rpm might do the trick. That would also be much easier to simultaneously apply tension than bumping in the traditional fashion.
+Subsonic1050 Nevermind... just read a comment further down and it sounds like you DID try this already - it just wasn't in the video.
That center bit with the ball-bearing.. the key doesn't have some sort of pin down in the hole of the key that push's the ball bearing and triggers something?
Perhaps you could spp it with a tube with what would look like a single cam from a camshaft.
Impressive lock
maybe you need a metal ring on that bump key to use a machine gun technique with it but you need to figure out a way to tension the lock with presence of those rubber gasket or spring.
modification of you bump key to mimic the tension in the original key could be useful
How about I spiral pick a tube with dimple ground or pressed in with a ball bearing to notcth not groves cut in and rotated a kinetic attack
I'm from Poland and smashing door is way easier than destroy gerda locks (not that I tried but that lock is massive comparing to commonly used doors)
Did you manage to open it? And like you said in some other comment you get from them newer version, why not cut out older and try to think something out of this?
they make specialized picks for these shop.multipick.com/en/opening--locksmith-tools/lock-picking--lock-manipulation/pick-sets--single-picks/other-picks/gerda-titan-zx-pick-decoder-tool not sure if it applys to this model
0:32 should NOT be your 'wits' end, use a same diameter pipe as the front-piece (with side-bar welded to it like a chainsaw's plug-socket/screwdriver) + grind the end such that a small piece is still on it's end-face (to locate that nib-slot), OR try using a tension'er made out of an old "wind-up" clock spring with the end-tip bent down to locate nib-slot, which can be held within the circular outer hole, thus eliminating slippage whilst putting a turning tension on the cylinder itself. Then use a VERY "thin.wall" stainless steel pipe (with LOTS of holes drilled in it), to insert deep into the lock itself, such that it's a "rake" when inserted & withdrawn quickly (CANNOT BE a full-wall-thickness similar to original, or it WILL reset the tumblers as you "bump it"). Or- grind your bump "thinner".
Destructive any lock can be opened, non-destructive... I don't think we have yet the technology to open that beast. Eventually.